past court trials are 'valued' on pedophiles to see patterns and structuring for future laws to protect and serve a democracy. You 'relatively' discount these historical pedophiles in your scheme of 'value' for everyone who needs these past 'evils'? You don't like therefore you value? What the boof is that...?
XO I completely agree that the 'value' of a murderous pedophile is extremely low in the eyes of most rational people; no argument there from me. But in a way, when we talk about how little value he has, we're acknowledging how greatly we value the innocent child who has been kidnapped etc. However, as far as intrinsic value goes, I guess that would be more subjective and relative. Thus the reason we've created a system of justice in our society, to decide on such matters.
I think that my personal sense of the "value" of anyone or anything will end when I die. Therefore MY life (my awareness of living) is the most valuable thing in my world.....THE World...to me
Wow, a classic illustration of why atheism is a sickness. You don't see any more intrinsic value in yourself than in a shoe? That's just a tragedy, any no, not everyone would agree with what you've said in your video. You are ignoring the intrinsic value that you have as a sentient, feeling, being.
I would say values are ultimately subjective, axiomatic, but blue adept has a point in that it is possible to have broader values beyond simple limited tribalistic versions of relationships; only valuing others that "do something" immediate for us. See slavery, Hitler, rich/poor divide.
Sentience exists independently of an external valuer. Sentience has value, in that it's an attribute of some thing but not others. Those with the attribute have more value. Sorry to burst you little bubble world.
It has value to me, sure, and I think to most rational people. However, it has no INTRINSIC value, because value IMPLIES a valuer, it IMPLIES someone valuing something.
By your definition, a gold coin also never has intrinsic value, since there is always a valuer. I suggest you google for "define:intrinsic" since the term 'intrinsic value' doesn't mean what you think it means. Get back to me when you understand the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic value.
Of course a gold coin has no intrinsic value. Intrinsic means without reference to an external factor, something that is factually true of something by nature. The value of gold varies constantly, both in terms of its value on the market, and within context of where/when the gold is purchased.
I love how you stated "By your definition, a gold coin also never has intrinsic value, since there is always a valuer" as an ad absurdum argument when it's actually true and not absurd at all.
Intrinsic value is the inherent value that something has independently of external valuators. Human life (any life, for that matter) has intrinsic value, independently of whether you (for example) think it does or doesn't. Einstein has more value than a rock because he has/had more sentience. Sentience is independent of external obversers, it's an example of an intrinsic property. You're just PRETENDING that _nothing_ has intrinsic properties. Laughable.
I never said nothing has an intrinsic property. I said nothing has intrinsic VALUE. The reason that Einstein has more value than a rock is because people VALUE Einstein. Let me put it another way; if all life on Earth was gone, how valuable would a car be?
Sentience is an intrinsic property (apparently of the organic human brain) but that does not mean it has intrinsic value. And you have failed to logically explain to me why anything does.
Why does sentience have INTRINSIC (independent of someone valuing it) value? This is what you keep failing to explain. You'll never be able to coherently explain it, because the concept of something having value without having to be valued by someone is completely illogical.
You asking 'given that intrinsic value doesn't exist, how can you show that X has intrinsic value'. Look pal, it's YOUR definition of intrinsic value (or any value) that presupposes a 'valuer' - not mine. Mine is the one found in the dictionary, ie a value tied to an INHERENT property. So don't talk to me about logic.
Ok, let me rephrase; you have failed to explain why something, anything, can have intrinsic value independent of a valuer. And I'm sorry, but "the dictionary says things do" is not an argument, it's an appeal to authority.
Hahaha. okkkay, going with the dictionary definition of a word is an "appeal to authority". I suppose it's more convenient for you to redefined it in terms of the conclusion of your argument. This is like debating whether abortion should be illegal with someone who insists on defining abortion as "the illegal act of aborting a life", and then keeps referencing to the non-standard definition as the infallible logic of his argument.
Just for giggles, why don't you look up the definition of the word "instrinsic (as in value)", seeing as that's what we're discussing. You see, there IS an existing noun phrase that matches the concept you're actually discussing: EXTRINSIC VALUE. And I agree with you that human life has no extrinsic value.
1 a : belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing
Nothing has value as part of its essential nature or constitution. Value is entirely relative, and something can be more valuable or less valuable from person to person. There is no such thing as intrinsic value because value itself is a judgment made by a human being, not a physical property.
yes, I'm AWARE that in your head "intrinsic value" doesn't exist as a concept, despite the fact that it exists in my dictionary (and many many other people's heads) as a concept.
Maybe (just maybe) this is a little like the blind man having to accept that when other people tell him about "vision", it could be that such a thing exists, but is outside his natural ability to directly comprehend.
Nothing you have said logically explains how something can have intrinsic value. The fact that other people agree with you that it exists is yet another appeal to authority.
OMG. I've given you a concrete example of an intrinsic property and clearly explained that intrinsic value can be expressed in terms of that property. Logic is against you. Common english useage of words is against you. Common sense is against you. Even the dictionary is against you.
OH well, you can lead an atheist to water, but you can't make him think. Sorry!
3) Therefore because object X has properties it must have intrinsic value.
This whole logical reasoning is circular and based on the assumption that properties have intrinsic value. The assumption needs to be proven before the rest of the logic can be applied.
Hey Blueadept. It's ok. GOD sends 'strong delusion' to many. When people want to argue... they do not care about truth. They make their own 'relative' god out of anger, pride, fury. But keep on fighting, it gives us answers to lead and protect our kids from this ignorance.
no. Value cannot be only relative to your thoughts and perceptions. There are chain events that take place that are for a higher goodness than the perception of the middle link that you 'think' has a certain value. Faith in a 'goodness' working past the 'perception' is the thing. .
it wouldn't be life as you know outside yourself in terms of a value system. Extrinsic is/ would be existential which implies a new set of rules with a required 'fix' to the actions of 'good' and 'intrinsic goodness'.. if that be a required sense..at this point> we already are admitting to a cause out of our hands. ...which calls time and space as jury to our actions.. which is another supercessional event prior to our action... a predeterministic and absolutist world... Which I believe in.
This is pretty much straight existential philosophy. Life may not have any intrinsic "value" or "meaning" that we can comprehend, so it's up to us to apply our own value and meaning to life. It is our responsibility to do this to combat the "nothingness" of the universe and create for ourselves a meaningful existance. I can't think of anything more moral than that.
"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."
Did TogetherForPeace think he was pulling one over on the skeptics or something? Mindless question, but great answer. People have to make their lives valuable.
Damn good bridging of the gap between the obvious but seemingly contradictory truths of rational thought and the core of subjectivism in life, I often have trouble explaining it.
"I don't value all human life" Yeah, that's a huge problem with many people infused with anti-rational ways (with or with out belief in the unseen): they do claim to value all life, which leds them to support the murderer, spitting upon the murdered by default.
past court trials are 'valued' on pedophiles to see patterns and structuring for future laws to protect and serve a democracy. You 'relatively' discount these historical pedophiles in your scheme of 'value' for everyone who needs these past 'evils'? You don't like therefore you value? What the boof is that...?
daddybear 3 years ago
XO I completely agree that the 'value' of a murderous pedophile is extremely low in the eyes of most rational people; no argument there from me. But in a way, when we talk about how little value he has, we're acknowledging how greatly we value the innocent child who has been kidnapped etc. However, as far as intrinsic value goes, I guess that would be more subjective and relative. Thus the reason we've created a system of justice in our society, to decide on such matters.
peace...
terri22221 3 years ago
I think that my personal sense of the "value" of anyone or anything will end when I die. Therefore MY life (my awareness of living) is the most valuable thing in my world.....THE World...to me
freethot 4 years ago
Haha your a stoner
mattynola 4 years ago
Yeah. What confuses me is when Christians ask for rational explanations for things that are so obviously rationally self-explanatory.
DemonzLunchBreak 4 years ago
Wow, a classic illustration of why atheism is a sickness. You don't see any more intrinsic value in yourself than in a shoe? That's just a tragedy, any no, not everyone would agree with what you've said in your video. You are ignoring the intrinsic value that you have as a sentient, feeling, being.
blueadept111 4 years ago
I would say values are ultimately subjective, axiomatic, but blue adept has a point in that it is possible to have broader values beyond simple limited tribalistic versions of relationships; only valuing others that "do something" immediate for us. See slavery, Hitler, rich/poor divide.
twiliteminotaur 4 years ago
Intrinsic value = value that somehow exists without a valuer.
Nothing has intrinsic value. It only seems like a tragedy to you because you believe that there's a magic sky daddy picking values for you.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
Sentience exists independently of an external valuer. Sentience has value, in that it's an attribute of some thing but not others. Those with the attribute have more value. Sorry to burst you little bubble world.
blueadept111 4 years ago
Sentience has value...to whom?
It has value to me, sure, and I think to most rational people. However, it has no INTRINSIC value, because value IMPLIES a valuer, it IMPLIES someone valuing something.
What part of this do you not understand?
XOmniverse 4 years ago
By your definition, a gold coin also never has intrinsic value, since there is always a valuer. I suggest you google for "define:intrinsic" since the term 'intrinsic value' doesn't mean what you think it means. Get back to me when you understand the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic value.
blueadept111 4 years ago
Of course a gold coin has no intrinsic value. Intrinsic means without reference to an external factor, something that is factually true of something by nature. The value of gold varies constantly, both in terms of its value on the market, and within context of where/when the gold is purchased.
I love how you stated "By your definition, a gold coin also never has intrinsic value, since there is always a valuer" as an ad absurdum argument when it's actually true and not absurd at all.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
Intrinsic value is the inherent value that something has independently of external valuators. Human life (any life, for that matter) has intrinsic value, independently of whether you (for example) think it does or doesn't. Einstein has more value than a rock because he has/had more sentience. Sentience is independent of external obversers, it's an example of an intrinsic property. You're just PRETENDING that _nothing_ has intrinsic properties. Laughable.
blueadept111 4 years ago
I never said nothing has an intrinsic property. I said nothing has intrinsic VALUE. The reason that Einstein has more value than a rock is because people VALUE Einstein. Let me put it another way; if all life on Earth was gone, how valuable would a car be?
Sentience is an intrinsic property (apparently of the organic human brain) but that does not mean it has intrinsic value. And you have failed to logically explain to me why anything does.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
Einstein has more instrinsic value than a rock because Einstein has an intrinsic property that the rock (and a car) does not: sentience.
blueadept111 4 years ago
Why does sentience have INTRINSIC (independent of someone valuing it) value? This is what you keep failing to explain. You'll never be able to coherently explain it, because the concept of something having value without having to be valued by someone is completely illogical.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
You asking 'given that intrinsic value doesn't exist, how can you show that X has intrinsic value'. Look pal, it's YOUR definition of intrinsic value (or any value) that presupposes a 'valuer' - not mine. Mine is the one found in the dictionary, ie a value tied to an INHERENT property. So don't talk to me about logic.
blueadept111 4 years ago
Ok, let me rephrase; you have failed to explain why something, anything, can have intrinsic value independent of a valuer. And I'm sorry, but "the dictionary says things do" is not an argument, it's an appeal to authority.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
Hahaha. okkkay, going with the dictionary definition of a word is an "appeal to authority". I suppose it's more convenient for you to redefined it in terms of the conclusion of your argument. This is like debating whether abortion should be illegal with someone who insists on defining abortion as "the illegal act of aborting a life", and then keeps referencing to the non-standard definition as the infallible logic of his argument.
blueadept111 4 years ago
Just for giggles, I looked up Webster's definition of value.
1 : a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
2 : the monetary worth of something : MARKET PRICE
3 : relative worth, utility, or importance
Notice the presence of the word relative in definition #3. None of those definitions mention intrinsicism.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
Just for giggles, why don't you look up the definition of the word "instrinsic (as in value)", seeing as that's what we're discussing. You see, there IS an existing noun phrase that matches the concept you're actually discussing: EXTRINSIC VALUE. And I agree with you that human life has no extrinsic value.
blueadept111 4 years ago
1 a : belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing
Nothing has value as part of its essential nature or constitution. Value is entirely relative, and something can be more valuable or less valuable from person to person. There is no such thing as intrinsic value because value itself is a judgment made by a human being, not a physical property.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
yes, I'm AWARE that in your head "intrinsic value" doesn't exist as a concept, despite the fact that it exists in my dictionary (and many many other people's heads) as a concept.
Maybe (just maybe) this is a little like the blind man having to accept that when other people tell him about "vision", it could be that such a thing exists, but is outside his natural ability to directly comprehend.
blueadept111 4 years ago
Nothing you have said logically explains how something can have intrinsic value. The fact that other people agree with you that it exists is yet another appeal to authority.
XOmniverse 4 years ago
OMG. I've given you a concrete example of an intrinsic property and clearly explained that intrinsic value can be expressed in terms of that property. Logic is against you. Common english useage of words is against you. Common sense is against you. Even the dictionary is against you.
OH well, you can lead an atheist to water, but you can't make him think. Sorry!
blueadept111 4 years ago
The argument thus far:
1) Properties of objects have intrinsic value
2) Object X has properties
3) Therefore because object X has properties it must have intrinsic value.
This whole logical reasoning is circular and based on the assumption that properties have intrinsic value. The assumption needs to be proven before the rest of the logic can be applied.
athslade 4 years ago
To make this more concrete. This is the actual argument:
1) Sentience is intrinsically valuable.
2) Humans beings are sentient.
3) Therefore human beings are intrinsically valuable.
athslade 4 years ago
Sorry just realized it's not actually circular. It's just an unproven assumption.
athslade 4 years ago
Hey Blueadept. It's ok. GOD sends 'strong delusion' to many. When people want to argue... they do not care about truth. They make their own 'relative' god out of anger, pride, fury. But keep on fighting, it gives us answers to lead and protect our kids from this ignorance.
daddybear 3 years ago
no. Value cannot be only relative to your thoughts and perceptions. There are chain events that take place that are for a higher goodness than the perception of the middle link that you 'think' has a certain value. Faith in a 'goodness' working past the 'perception' is the thing. .
daddybear 3 years ago
it wouldn't be life as you know outside yourself in terms of a value system. Extrinsic is/ would be existential which implies a new set of rules with a required 'fix' to the actions of 'good' and 'intrinsic goodness'.. if that be a required sense..at this point> we already are admitting to a cause out of our hands. ...which calls time and space as jury to our actions.. which is another supercessional event prior to our action... a predeterministic and absolutist world... Which I believe in.
daddybear 3 years ago
good clear common sense
cloudmonkeys 4 years ago
1). The meaning of my life is determined by me. 2). The value of my life is determined by others.
If 1) wasn't true, we wouldn't make videos. If 2) wasn't true, no one would watch them.
I greatly value your vids and your thoughts, not for what they mean to you, but for what they mean to me. Nice job.
1tinsoldier 4 years ago
This is pretty much straight existential philosophy. Life may not have any intrinsic "value" or "meaning" that we can comprehend, so it's up to us to apply our own value and meaning to life. It is our responsibility to do this to combat the "nothingness" of the universe and create for ourselves a meaningful existance. I can't think of anything more moral than that.
retribution92 4 years ago
"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."
- Ayn Rand
XOmniverse 4 years ago
Did TogetherForPeace think he was pulling one over on the skeptics or something? Mindless question, but great answer. People have to make their lives valuable.
LibertyIsNotGiven 4 years ago
Damn good bridging of the gap between the obvious but seemingly contradictory truths of rational thought and the core of subjectivism in life, I often have trouble explaining it.
"I don't value all human life" Yeah, that's a huge problem with many people infused with anti-rational ways (with or with out belief in the unseen): they do claim to value all life, which leds them to support the murderer, spitting upon the murdered by default.
blackacidlizzard 4 years ago
thanks for the vid response...peace
TogetherForPeace 4 years ago