Milton Friedman - The Curse of State-Owned Oil

[diogotomediogo]

just like the wasted gold from brazil that portugal was taking in in the XVIII centuary

[ElJefer]

In his last seconds before dying he could reason better than most people in their prime.

[KeepEmHonest2010]

Even is his physically fading days... mentally he never missed a beat. He was a economic Socrates.

[cesar333]

venezuela had privately owned oil companies who leased lands to privately owned foreign companies to drill. Look where that went.

[rebelpowerhour]

What Milton misses is that often these dictatorships are imposed from the outside for the purpose of protecting private oil ownership in the region.

[scrabbleking1965]

Mr. Friedman the reality is those leaders of the repressive governments are puppets for the western corporate plutocracy. Iran 1953 democratically elected government overthrown by the US. Iraq 10 years ago threatens to sell oil in Euros, ah that idea didn't go over so well.....

[MikeKay1978]

Read what AUSM92 is writting he knows what he is talking about. Norway just looks good on paper. High standard of living comes from high productivity not from a from more money due to great oil findings.

[911Dagur]

I hate when milton is wrong ... Norway is an example of a poor country that became extremely rich and has the highest living standard in the world...why? Because the oil was owned by the government and still is ...mostly. If private groupes would have owned the oil the norwegian people would not be nearly as rich as they are now and the standard of living would be much lower. Norway has equality and doesnt want to have to big gaps between the wealthy and the poor...the middle east does not

[ChristopherAdderley]

@911Dagur How large was the population of Norway? What institutions did they have in place (including and excluding government) before they discovered their oil? Do they have a minimum wage? What will happen when the resources run out? All the best.

[ChristopherAdderley]

@911Dagur I want you to bear in mind that the population of Norway as of 2009 was less than 5 million and that the population of the City of London was just under 8 million. In the words of Milton Friedman, "in any case, you've got to have a sense of proportion"

[911Dagur]

@ChristopherAdderley I hate to have to say this but Milton is wrong on this matter. I admire the man but its just not true what he says. People first have to realize that the "government" in the middle east that owned the oil were corrupt and were not thinking about their people, democracy didnt really exist at least they didnt really have it. While in norway the government is not as corrupt although ofcours they are like all governments. Just go to the middle east and you will see.

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

I don't believe that Milton is wrong even in the case of Norway. Norway doesn't have a better standard of living then other scandinavian countries, sure their GDP per capita is higher but that doesn't mean they have a higher standard of living. in fact Norway has a lower standard of living. A norwegian salary is more likely to be able to buy less then for example a Swedish, Finnish or a Danish salary even though Sweden and Finland don't have any oil.

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 IF that is right then why the hell are all the Swedes, Finnish people, Danes and Icelandic people moving to Norway to work? BECAUSE YOU GET HIGHER SALARIES and yes writing it in caps makes it true. Norway has a much higher standard of living than all of the scandinavian countries. You are obviously not well informed on Scandinavian countries, I have been to them all know people from them all and have lived in two and still live in one. Dont try to argue with me about Scandinavia

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

Good point, but why does then all the norwegians buy food and other goods from Sweden and finland then if their standard of living is so superior? Why do all other countries have better infrastructure? better education and so on? My personal experience from Norway, from Oslo to be exact. You get 60% higher salary but everyttice as much! that is not an indication of higher standard of living!

I have lived in three different scandinavian countries and was borned in one.

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 So you are saying that being able to import much of your food is not a high standard of living? Norway has its own food and goods but imports too because it is cheaper for them to buy import then if they would have to buy food made in their own country because of such high salaries. I surely doubt all other countries have better infrastructure or education. I have yet to find faults with the infrastructure or education myself. Youre just a sour puss that doesnt like norway

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

So you resorted to name calling, strong argument!. By the way Denmark had the highest salaries in the world! salaries don't mean nothing. It what the salary can buy that define standard of living. You know what google UBS prices and earnings maybe you'll learn something! Or are you full of yourself already. Next thing i didn't say i don't like Norway. I trying to tell the truth, you are probably victim like most other people thinking that Norway is such a rich country, it isn't!

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 When did i resort to name calling? Norwegian salaries can buy much more then any other salaries in Scandinavia, Norwegian people usually own more expensive things and more property then other nationalities in Europe. Norway is a rich country, oil ist mostly to blame for that but that doesnt change that Norwegians can buy much more shit then the rest of the world on average and even the poorest people here have it very good. I know what UBS prices and earnings are

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 Btw Norway has more distributed income for the poorest 10% then Sweden, It is also nr.1 on the HDI that is to say 5 places ahead of Sweden. Norway has more Gross national income per person then Sweden and higher GDP per person then Sweden. Norway is also above Sweden on the GINI index. Norway also gives more money to foreign aid then Sweden(something im actually against seeing as foreign aid doesnt help that much).

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

You absolutly right, but it doesn't help me as I have a master in science and I earn more than the average person. since the the variation of salaries are bigger in Sweden than in Norway I would naturally experience a decline in standard of living since more money is chasing the same amount of goods and services. So if you are uneducated or unemployed you'll have a better life in Norway than in Sweden. If educated with a good job Sweden would be better.

[MikeKay1978]

I have studied economy and my conclusion is that GDP per capita and other statistics don't say anything about the living standard. Yes the GDP and the GINI all indicates that it should be better in Norway than in any other country but every person to whom I have spoken to have had better standard of living in a materialist way in the USA, Germany and Sweden. I have lived in Switzerland and the statistics are close to Norway but the purchasing power is so much better than in Norway.

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

Norway was a very poor country and you can still see it i just got alot of money lately which it put in an oilfund, most money from that fund is invested abroad so the norwegian on get about 2% of the return to themselves. If you would have any clues about economy you would know that higher material living standard comes from higher productivity. In Norway more money is chasing fewer goods, for example Norway have 4000 registered food items Sweden has 8000.

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 Sweden is a country twice the size of Norway in industry and population so ofcourse it has more food products. Norway has the highest productivity in the whole fucking world lol.

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

If you measure productivity in money then yes, but in actual work I bet it would about the same.

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

Ok can you explain why Norwegians go east to sweden and then drive on swedish roads if they want to go north? Because norway doesn't have any good roads, the roads are a joke! everyone that has been here know that. Saying that you can't see any problems with the infrastructure you got be living in afghanistan.

And yes education is not good again read some reports Finland dwarfs the other scandinavian countries when it comes to education. as for healthcare, Sweden is far better.

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 hahahhaha what the fuck have you been smoking? Norway does have some good roads but many are bad yes, but they are a thousand times better then in Afghanistan. I live in Norway.I have read the reports and sure Finland is doing well with grades on tests but Norwegian schools focus more on teaching you to figure things out by yourself so you can be self dependant. The Finnish may get higher grades but that does not make them smarter. There is not that big a difference between

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 Swedish and Norwegian healthcare. Its free for both countries and very good although Norway could sharpen up a little with the older peoples homes.

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

As Mr Friedman would put it "there is no such thing as a free lunch" Some one has to pay for it and in scandinavian countries you pay for you "free" healthcare, through taxes scandinavian countries have the highest taxes in the world. and you actually pay when you see a doctor. Otherwise the healtcare system is good when it comes to more complicated diseases but things like diabetes and other less serious diseases it demand alot of patience in both countries the queues are rediculous.

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 Haha i know that but the good thing is that everyone can afford to pay for healthcare because it is paid through taxes so poor people that would not have afforded paying for treatments get treated on the cost of richer people that dont really need all that money.

[MikeKay1978]

@911Dagur

the much higher prices in norway indicates a rather that Norway is suffering from the dutch disease.

Some examples. Milk in sweden cost about 1 euro. in norway it cost about 2 euros. Shoes costs in sweden from let say 65 euros in norway the same type of shoes cost 110 euros, this can go on if you want a full report on this google UBS prices and earnings.

[911Dagur]

@MikeKay1978 Thats because you get like almost twice the pay in Norway

[911Dagur]

Respond to this video... I have studies social economics or samfunnsøkonomi like its called in Norway and i know what UBS prices and earnings are. I long ago found out that Norwegians can buy much more with their salaries then Sweden or Denmark.

[ridiculusstimulus]

The reason it survived the recession was because it had nothing to lose or gain

[911Dagur]

@ridiculusstimulus What do you mean? Norwegian markets went down during the recession but that was only because of pessimism in the mraket not because of anything real happening resulting to economic regression.

[mba2ceo]

" CARACAS, Dec 29 , 2008 (IPS) - The world’s most inexpensive gasoline is sold in Venezuela " another strike for idiot ( or vile scum ) !!!

[2dum2getsocialism]

here in america we have this thing called a constitution

this constitution clearly and explicitly defines the role of our government

as human history demonstrates, a government will never cease to feed itself when given the opportunity; much like a fire can turn into an inferno if left unchecked

whatever happens in norway is for norway to decide but the role of the "state" in america is already defined in our founding documents

[tunacorncheese]

@2dum2getsocialism

well as i understood the commentary they were talking about Middle Eastern Countries and not the United States. I was merely stating that several countries have shown that they can have government ownership and government involvement and still be quite successful. The problem with middle eastern countries are that they have a certain type of government not necessarily that government involvement is a bad thing in general. I dont recall anyone saying anything about the US.

[DukeofWellington91]

@tunacorncheese Norway is also one of the most socialist states in Europe and somewhere I would personally hate to live, you may be politically free yet there is very little economic freedom. You are even more of a nanny state than the UK is, anyone who has tried to buy some scotch in Norway will know what I mean.

[911Dagur]

@DukeofWellington91 Lol dude we have much more economic freedom then you will ever have and have much more money. You can buy scotch in Norway wherever you want?

[DukeofWellington91]

@911Dagur Yeah but how much do they tax you? Trying to direct you towards what some asshole politician thinks is the right choice.

[tunacorncheese]

@DukeofWellington91 again that has nothing to do with my comment...I was merely pointing out that government intervention in the oil industry in Norway has led to very efficient, successful results. Norway is a relatively homogeneous society that sacrifices certain luxuries for the better of their society...but that's another issue. Again I stress you cant just say that government intervention in anything causes bad results, the historical record speaks for itself. btw Im not from Norway.

[911Dagur]

@2dum2getsocialism All European nations have constitutions to ... its not some thing that only the USA has. Just because its written in the constitution doesnt make it right ... to think otherwise would be a crime against human intelligence. Laws change, systems change, species evolve. You cant stay the same forever.

[2dum2getsocialism]

@911Dagur first, what is wrong with the us constitution? again, i dont care what european countries have; our constitution is only "wrong" in the sense that it is ignored and bypassed

to suggest, as i believe you are, that the constitution is of the "living and breathing" kind is a crime against humanity and is just another attempt of what you probably call "intelligence" but i call human folly

by the way-- you can take your "norway" illustrations back to that homogenized anti-semitic fiefdom

[911Dagur]

@2dum2getsocialism You are obviously not willing to discuss this matter and have already closed your mind to new ideas. I never said your constitution was "wrong" but that doesnt make it right either. I will gladly take my norway illustrations away from you and keep them here in Norway so that we can keep on beeing one the richest countries in the world with the biggest economic growth and money floating everywhere. How unlucky I am to live in Norway ....

[ChristopherAdderley]

@2dum2getsocialism I certainly agree with you (as an English person) that for the large part the American constitution is very solid. And you are correct to say that it is ignored and bypassed. I pray that you have Ron Paul for President almost everyday (when I don't forget) so that you can restore America it's former glory. It would be good for America and even better for the world.

[tunacorncheese]

State ownership of oil is not prima facie a bad thing. Norway has shown that the state can own large parts of industries such as their oil and gas industries and they have robust a fairly robust economy that survived the recession better than many other countries. We cant take these blanket statements such as "Government ownership is bad" as truth...we have to analyze within context

[jrsub3]

@LibertyPen I know his son is an anarchist. Milton was most certainly a minarchist, even more just a regular Libertarian given all he said.

Either way, he was a great man. I wish he was still around to more eloquently argue the classical liberal message, rather than allow the myth of it being nothing but "tax cuts for the rich" to persist.

[TheVideoRepo]

Nonsense. The Iranian oil industry, for example, was first nationalised in 1951 by Mohammad Mosaddegh, the first democratically elected Iranian leader. In 1952 he was ousted by a CIA/MI5 coup, and replaced with the Shah and a cabinet of ex-Nazis, who re-privatized the oil industry and quickly became the biggest killers in the middle east.

In Iran today, the regime is liberalizing oil whilst drastically increasing the state monopoly of violence and information.

There is no correlation.

[PrimateDynasty]

@LibertyPen I know your comment is one year old, but I can't help but facepalm!

problem of anarchy is that there is no law is what your comment was.

my comment: who said there would be no laws in an anarchy?

elaboration: no MONOPOLY over law!

[norinco77b]

@AUSM92 That;s right sdohmi. I can show this guy my 1040 from the US and my tax documents in Germany. Maybe he'll shut up.

[sdohmi]

@AUSM92 You are wrong. I have lived in 3 european countries and my tax rates was never above 35 %. I have also lived in the US and my tax rate was also about 35 %. How many of these countries have you lived in ?

[norinco77b]

@AUSM92 Ah, and btw, let us not forget that the taxes in Norway buy you a first-class health insurance and retirement plan, things that must come out of your pocket in the US because they are not included in your taxes. Therefore, I'd rather pay (worst case) 50 % (best case 35 %) taxes in Norway than 35 % in the US, where half of that money is employed in a bloated military.

[norinco77b]

@AUSM92 About the living costs: Granted, in Norway they are very high. But they are even higher in the US, where the basic rent is about 800 $ a month without utilities (state-averaged). And this is with an average salary of $50K. In Norway the rent costs are lower and salaries are higher (per capita rent is about $60K). So, at the end of the day the standards of living in Norway and WAY higher than in the US.

[norinco77b]

@AUSM92 @AUSM92 The 50 % tax-bracket is a myth that anglo-countries try to make other countries believe. I live in Germany and my sister lives in Norway. The 50 % tax rate apples only to single people with no spouses or dependents. At the end of the day, once you apply deductions, the tax-rate is about 35 % or so. This is a very similar number to the US, where by the way I lived for 4 years (therefore I know what I am talking about).

[blueshade26]

@AUSM92

I'm just saying, what's the different between the oil being controlled by a small number "private" individuals or a dictator? either way, you have a monopoly, which is bad for consumers.

[YourNameHere1212]

@LibertyPen Over 200 years, the government has thrown off the chains of the constitution. It is time that those chains were put back in place.

[blueshade26]

his logic was going a bit wonky on this one. I'm pretty sure that with tightly held control on the functions of the state, i.e. despotism as friedman points out, you basically have the equivalent of private control of the oil. you can't see the nature of the "curse of oil" through anarcho-capitalist lenses alone...

[geiadude]

Milton Friedman

His Life will not last. No I am not an Islamic or any Region. I am the sad Truth that will be there after all the ashes fall, No not for Christianity No not for Islam. No not for any religions. Your warp view on on Judaism is so farsighted. Yours are just another. View of Lies. The truth? I don't know In truth do You?

[knowthetruth1492]

I wanted to hear him say why a privatized oil industry would be much better.

[Gyrode]

@knowthetruth1492 He said before a very simple principle, you tend to do a better job of taking care of your own property, especially if you are responsible for third party effects. When third party effects, and even normal day to day costs are socialized, there is no incentive.

[coolmerc3]

@LibertyPen

I totally agree....We are starving our society morally for not hving more men like him.

[Nintendomanwill]

@LibertyPen

What if I believed that anarchy is the only way to have a rule of law and that the rule of the State over law is the truly chaotic 'anarchy' in the sense of gravitating coercive power towards initiation of coercion rather than defence against it?

[norinco77b]

Norway has a state run oil company and the country is doing pretty good. Not only with high standards of living, but also with huge welfare and enormous freedom.

[TCoop6231]

@norinco77b "huge welfare and enormous freedom." Don't you see a contradiction there?

[Gyrode]

@norinco77b But you are starting n the middle, Norway and all the Nordic countries had a free period of less government, followed by a period of excessive welfare, followed by the expected cut back in taxes, and stop in the growth of government. Either way, at least I can buy stock in Statoil, not exactly complete socialization.

[ddaly1]

Despotism came to Iran only after a democratically elected leader (Mosaddegh) attempted to NATIONALIZE a portion of the country's oil reserves & the CIA (w/ the support of BP) brought despotism to the country (this seems to contradict his little narrative/rule of thumb doesn't it)

[MisesianThinker]

@LibertyPen That's a non-sequitur, the market could easily provide defense and arbitration services. The question is how can a constitution prevent the growth of government when they are the ones who interpret it? I suggest you read Murray Rothbard sometime.

Friedman is okay, I don't like his positions on money or property rights, that is why I don't really consider him a libertarian. He also supported a Negative income tax aka a wage floor.

[alilapointe1]

i wish you were alive today to see what an outcome it is owing to your philosophy. did you guys not go and beg for money in the middle east lately ? i am sure i read it in the sunday times .of course if that is a source we can all trust.

[RoronoaZoro222]

Wish he would comment on Norway... We have state owned oil and there is 7 political parties competing democratically for political power... no despotism here. Just alot of state owned oil.

[imstillalive0331]

he covers it in a debate he did in iceland

[Genowulf]

Have you read much anarchist literature?

[milfrie]

I love him

[JBnotthescotch]

@milfrie have his babies

[tradingbr]

where can you find this full interview?

[whoo689]

I'm not sure how many of you guys watch Ridley Report here on YT, but one of the sponsors or people he talked about in a video was some NH guy who was starting his own NH libertarian alternative to the bar (bar exam and bar assocation), and I was all for it. There should definitely be competition when it comes to judging and practicing law. One interpretation or set of requirements should not be the standard. Competition will make law more efficient.

[whoo689]

I do understand the possible economic benefits of getting rid of licensing requirements, but I'm not so sure they'll be all that great to justify overhauling that system entirely. However, I do agree that things like hairstyling and haircuts should not require licensing.  Only essential stuff like surgery or doctors, if at all, should require licenses. Lawyers, not sure about that. Why should practicing law be limited to someone who takes some stupid exam? So I'm not an expert, big deal.

[whoo689]

Anyone should be allowed to learn the law and practice law wherever they choose here in the states as citizens. It's stupid to restrict practicing law or bringing up court cases to a select few lawyers. What's the point of this?? It disempowers citizens because they have to hire expensive attorneys to take these cases FOR THEM, rather than being able to take on their own cases if they know the law well enough. It's a lawyer monopoly, simply put. It's ridiculous.

[Elasaltaculos]

Absolutely right. I believe Frederic Bastiat outlined the legitimacy of government the best. Each of us have the natural right to defend his person, his liberty and his property even by force. It follows that a group of people have the right to organize, protect and support a common force to protect these rights by force.

I believe John Locke's Natural Rights of man were pretty much about the same thing.

John Locke influenced the drafting of our constitution tremendously.

[TimeWarp66]

It cost me $25 bucks lol, but I have a great Milton Friedman DVD of when he was a younger man at the Mayo clinic conducting a question and answer session, and debunked socialized medicine and the need for licensing, the FDA, and welfare.

What do I need to upload parts of the DVD to youtube!?!?!!?

[UndertakerALF]

PLEASE upload that!

[TimeWarp66]

LibertyPen just bought it from me lol. When he gets it he'll upload it.

[whoo689]

I'd love to see the licensing stuff, especially. I've always heard that argument from fellow libertarians, but I personally am not so sure it's a wise idea. Even in today's information age, I think people still take for granted too much how protected we are under "consumer protection" laws and licensing. This leads to laziness and assuming that every doctor is qualified because they're required to be licensed before practicing. Taking away licensing I'm not so sure will help.

[Elasaltaculos]

i wish we could clone the great Milton Friedman. Every generation should have one, lol

[austinisi]

how about david and patri?

[ErikMartinsen81]

I think both of them are anarchists.

[AshillaBeige]

Well, the things they advocate are generally the same, it's just anarchists take it one step further. Free market libertarians and anarchists should work together.

[Elasaltaculos]

mmmmm, i dont know. Libertarians advocate a republic of laws. I especially would not 'work together" with anarchists who want to take the communist pathway towards anarchy. And I still fail to see how anarchy is a permanent system.

I understand some of their ideals but I think I disagree with them a lot.

But those who want freedom should definitely find common ground and try to move us in that direction.

[AshillaBeige]

Most anarchists I know are non-violent market anarchists who want the same things libertarians do, they just prefer very small scale voluntary governments and not an actual state authority. And fyi, there was anarchy in Ireland for over a thousand years. The Constitutional Republic of the US lasted for decades... I think it's the best route though.

[Elasaltaculos]

As I understand it, market anarchy is compatible with a republic, and market anarchy is not anarchy, isn't it rather like the free market?

I dont know about Ireland, but I am willing to be it wasn't as much anarchy as it was tribalism/barbarism/despotism where strongmen and people beneath them practically ruled. Anarchy is unsustainable as people are always going to gang together to coerce others.

[ErikMartinsen81]

Anarcho-capitalism is certainly interesting, though judging by what I know about it so far I have *very* little faith that it would work. At some point I'll study it further -- The Ethics of Liberty has been sitting in my bookshelf for a long time.

[AshillaBeige]

My issue is that I've lost all faith in the idea of "good government". Folks like us have been waiting for its First Coming (well one that sustained for more than a few years) longer than Christians have been waiting for Jesus' Second Coming.

But really, market anarchism and individualist libertarianism are very similar, so I think folks like us should work together, and debate issues of the state in a civil, intellectual manner.

[Tidoublemy]

Milton described himself as being a "consequentialist libertarian" which means that he stood for personal freedom but reasoned things out to see what their effects were. Anarchists are blind to the effects of their own actions.

[fergus247]

What?

In an Anarcho society, the indivudal has full responsibility of him self. Dont tell me that makes him blind.

You must be thinking of welfare state children, that grow blinder toward their own actions, as the state assumes more responsibility over them as individuals.

[flynn2008]

But anarchists could be a great reminder to what would be alternative to a collective government system which politicians fear. I am a minarchist. I believe in laws and minimal government intervention. I do think anarchists are valuable in term of restringing the ever growing power of the government.

[frithar]

@Tidoublemy Mind carefully how you label anarchist beliefs.  Friedman's own son is a brilliant anarcho-capitalist and is anything *but* "blind to the effects of [his] own actions."

[guyjohn59]

@Elasaltaculos His son, David Friedman, has written many good books on law, economics, and libertarian thought.

[JBnotthescotch]

@Elasaltaculos don't worry, Mr. Nosferatu is immortal.