Uvic Abortion Debate Oct 21st '09 Part 2 of 10

[tenorhighc1]

oh god please not the SLED argument again!

[tenorhighc1]

She keeps saying we have to ask the question,"are they human" as if by acknowledging this she will win ground. Kluge says flat out "of course they are human." She is completely wasting her breath here. The question is personhood - capacity for self awareness and upper brain activity ( you are your brain ) is the true issue of debate. Also her analogies of disability children and poverty do not work at all. They are poor, cheap tactics.

[dilemmix]

She speaks of an 'unborn child', which is just silly because we don't speak of an 'unhatched chick' or an 'ungrown oak' when we speak about eggs and acorns.

Fact is, a foetus is not a PERSON with independency, and relies for 100% on the woman's body. The woman has the right to control her body.

[bahramf]

@dilemmix That's a horrible argument and Kluge explained why.

[SocialDissimulation]

I have a question for anyone to answer: If you had the choice to save a pregnant woman (mother), or her fetus, which one would you save? If their lives were in imbalance and she was to die if she went through with the pregnancy, what would we do?

One would know what happened and the decision of it, the other has no idea what's going on and never will. I think the answer is absolutely clear as to what is more important in life.

[redmond1913]

Yes, KushPizzaSleep, people do die all the time. But that is not the issue here. We have laws that say that you are not to murder. That is, you are not to knowingly cause the death of anyone out of evil intent or motives. Yes and I do understand that abortion has a place in our society today just as throwing babies in a fire in worship of Baal had it's place in the society of that time. Does that make it ok? The core question is when does life begin? At what point does life start?

[smike06]

Its not about being a human. Thats obvious. Its about being a Person.

[grev00]

Doctors aren't CEO's... Almost all dr's would obviously not recommend smoking to people and I have very little doubt that almost no dr's would ever suggest lightly that someone has an abortion. The main point is the analogy between dr's and CEO's is pretty far fetched.

Also being an atheist does not commit you to moral relativism nor commit you to not value you people. It seems to me that many atheists end up being humanists, ie Richard Dawkins.

[wood9670]

Big Tobacco sales a product that is addictive and has been proven conclusive to cause cancer. It has literally killed millions.

I don't think those CEO's wake up every morning with that intention.

I think their intention is to make money, regardless of the means.

Is it really that unbelievable that a person wouldn't profit from the killing of unborn human beings if the law allowed them to?

Apathy and indifference, don't pass it on.

[redmond1913]

.I believe that abortionist want to be as God and have the power to determine when life is valuable. They use arguments about the "value" of life, poverty, rape, whether the baby is "wanted" to validate their decision. That is only a smoke screen. Only the Creater has that right. That is why the 6th commandment is "Thy shall not murder". If you don't believe in God then anything is "right" in your eyes. If you don't value the "least of these" you'll eventually not value the rest of these

[Brooks148]

I don't really think a doctor wakes up in the morning thinking "Man, I can't wait to perform today's abortions!". They also don't evaluate the value of life based on poverty, rape, or a woman's desire. Value of life is decided on science and ethics and their decisions are governed by law.

[bahramf]

@Brooks148 Value of life is not decided based on science (unless you agree that there is no "ought"). Ethics could decide the value of life the same way aesthetics decides the value of art, but law is the only things that really determines these things.

redmond1913 seems to be claiming (along side Ivan from the Brother's Karamazov) that w/o everything is permitted. Everything is not permitted because contrary to divine command theorists morality can exist w/o God.

[ukgukgukg]

@Brooks148 Science cannot, because of its very nature determine the value of life. It may however influence it. The conclusion is a moral one not a scientific one.

[KushPizzaSleep]

Put down the jesus juice. People die all the time. It is life. Abortion is something that has a place in society today. Deal with it.

[bahramf]

@redmond1913 ...Laws contain a lot of what is moral and what is not in a secular society. Morality determines what you should/shouldn't do when there is no law forbidding you from an action.

If you're a Christian you don't do what you know is wrong b/c you're scared of hell. If you're an atheist, you don't do what you know is wrong b/c you're moral.