Chirstopher Hitchens: Catholics and condoms

[mikelheron20]

Perhaps as a small concession, the Church could allow Catholic priests to wear a condom when they're sodomising and raping children. That seems reasonable to me.

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 The Church doesn't allow either. That's more reasonable. If you're going to sin anyway, then it may represent an advance in the subject's moral awareness that he'll do less harm to the abused person if he wore a condom. The pope did say that, but it doesn't amount to allowing either as you can probably realize.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed You're right. Saying that an atheist should respect detrimental ideologies proposed by the church and the pope himself is like telling a black man to respect the KKK. Good night.

[mikelheron20]

@Portubed My remark - as should be obvious - was intended ironically. And you are wrong. Because of the way the Church has consistently covered up sex abuse by the clergy, moved priests to other parishes so they can carry on abusing, sworn victims to secrecy (on pain of excommunication), dealt out the most lenient punishments possible (under Canon Law) it has done more than allow it - it has positively encouraged it.

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 You could construe it as such if you knew nothing of Church doctrine. I can probably safely assume that's not far from the truth. You also have an incredibly one-sided (and partial at that) understanding of the issues and see no problem with that.

[mikelheron20]

@Portubed For the first 18 years of my life I was bombarded with Catholic doctrine. I have a deep understanding of Catholic theology derived from everyone from Augustine, Ansekm and Aquinas to the present day. I can still recite the Catholic Mass in Latin without even thinking about it. You really must not assume that people who do not share your views disagree with you from ignorance. It is because I am so familiar with Catholic doctrine that I reject it utterly.

[mikelheron20]

@mikelheron20 However, this issue has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine which is, frankly, your problem. It is to with the secular activities of priests and the fact that the Church , as personified by Ratzinger as head of the CDF and as Pope, used the spurious Vatican claim to statehood, Canon Law and Crimen Solicitationis (look it up) to shelter paedophile priests, swear the victims to secrecy on pain of excommunication and moved the priests

[mikelheron20]

@mikelheron20 to other parishes to continue buggering little boys (mainly). It is not the Church's spiritual activities to which I take exception. If you choose to believe in transubstantiation, the bodily assumption of the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin birth and the mystery of the Trinity who am I to comment? But when priests rape and sodomise children with impunity I take strong exception. Did you know being a paedophile constitutes a defence in Canon Law?

[mikelheron20]

@Portubed By the way, if you knew anything about Church doctrine you would know that it is completely separate from Canon Law.

[mikelheron20]

@mikelheron20 I forgot to say that when I was 18, in the 6th Form, of the Christian Brothers School I attended,I organised a debate,in which I spoke, on the then recently issued Papal Encyclical Humanae Vitae.It was bollocks then and its bollocks now.The difference is that at that time it was over-population and "ordinary" STDs that were the issue.Now its about HIV AIDS too.Another area where the Church uses its spurious secular statehood to undermine the efforts of doctors etc through the UN.

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 The quantity of religious instruction is a lot different from its quality! Church doctrine does nothing to encourage sexual abuse, quite the opposite. And I did separate Canon Law from it. Surely the Law often fails, nobody's perfect. You don't really understand Humanae Vitae, it isn't a legal or a political or a health encyclical, but an anthropological one. Please read "Time To Admit It: The Church Has Always Been Right On Birth Control" on Business Insider.

[mikelheron20]

@Portubed I have no interest in convincing you of the depth of my knowledge in these matters and I dont expect you to take my word for it so we have reached an impasse. You will no doubt continue to cling to the wreckage of Catholicism. I hope it isnt too traumatic for you when the hulk finally sinks without trace, It s holed below the waterline.

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 Friend, I understand your situation. You've lost confidence in the hierarchy before you waivered faith in God so it's pretty hard to make abstract points make sense to you while what motivates you is the suffering and disdain toward the failures and ommissions of people towards putting their beliefs into practice. The Church has a vitality that isn't your own. As you decay, the more bitter you become. All I can do is listen and hope you'd reconsider. Stop looking back

[mikelheron20]

@Portubed I dont care what Catholics believe. Its the intrusion into secular matters through the exercise of quasi-political power I resent: stem

cell research, in vitro fertilisation, population and disease control, stirring hatred against homosexuals, interfering with the course of justice by covering for paedophile priests. This is current - nothing to do with looking back. I only told you about my past to refute your wrong assumption that I know nothing about Catholic doctrine.

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 I said you don't know enough about Catholic doctrine, with resentment replacing reason. You "intrude" into secular matters as well, everyone with an opinion "intrudes". There's lots of liberal bigots defined by what they're against instead of what they're for. To me, the simultaneously philosophical, anthropological and theological worldview of the Church is the most effective for building a civilization where it's wonderful to live and progress as a human being.

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 I also still think you're criticism is pretty anachronistic not only because you espouse the anti-clericalism of the past centuries but you also fail to recognize the face of change in the Church, especially with Benedict XVI making it clear he's foremost a bishop and not a political leader. However, being focused on personal conscience in connection with the truth, he's an amazing example of wisdom in an age of meaningless, selfish and destructive relativism.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed How ironic and pathetic of you to praise your beloved pope for his sheer ignorance and egotism, particularly in taking moral highground over condom use while systematically protecting pedophiles. Let's face it, the 21st century has no place for backward ideologies and doctrines, and the existence of the church itself. You're mistaking a war on religion with not always getting what you're wanted.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 If it's not possible for you to be less hateful and confused, please stop writing.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed It is not possible for you to defend the wrong-doings of the church and the pope himself with your circular logic and blatant claims anymore, because you have not a single point to back up your defense. So I will repeat, it is not possible for you to comprehend logic anymore while you're still cluelessly defend something that is obviously immoral by humanistic standards. Dismiss.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Not again... It should be obvious to anyone that your general comments (just memes really) are the ones without any content, that talk about some vague "humanistic standards" and keeps insulting people all over the place. Please don't lie about me, especially not telling me what I can or can't do, since you're trampling on your self-proclaimed "humanistic standards". I wonder the sort of thing those standards include since you're allowed to be that presumptuous.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed I find it quite oblivious and amusing at the same time that this is coming from a church-goer, whose elementary knowledge about human sexuality and birth control is only surpassed by a fifth grader. Because criticizing something that is extremely detrimental to mankind as a whole can be labeled as something "presumptuous" through the mind of a pope lover, right?

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Church-goers get married and have loads of sex and have loads of children. In fact, Catholics often report more satisfaction with the relationships (also when it comes down to sex) than most other groups. Love matters. I won't really respond again to your conceited and bitterly ignorant remarks. You're not even amusing to talk to.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed Especially when all those Catholic priests don't have to wear these cumbersome condoms while raping the altar boys since the Roman Catholic's view on marriage is flawed and destructive when it explicitly condemns any birth control measures. Your satisfactory "report" is flawed, biased, and hardly with any proof just like the Roman Catholic church itself. In fact, the Catholic view on sex aims to make women feel disgusted and guilty for having sex. How amusing.

[mikelheron20]

@Portubed Unfortunately, what you say - which on the face of it sounds reasonable - is completely contradicted by Benedicts actions or, more often, inaction. He is one of the most reactionary Pontiffs of modern times. As for anti-clericalism - where did that come from? I have said several times that I dont care about what Catholics believe. I find it completely irrelevant. However, I have some serious issues with the way certain doctrines affect he world in which I live. You are

[mikelheron20]

@mikelheron20 obviously someone who will defend the Catholic Church no matter how its leaders and clergy behave. It is easy to be loyal if you remain in a state of ignorance. I challenge you to read the book I have mentioned several times: The Case of the Pope by Geoffery Robertson QC. If you read it and your views are unchanged it could only be because you conclude he is telling lies. If half of what he says is true, the Church has one hell of a lot to answer for. To be frank, I

[mikelheron20]

@mikelheron20 respect loyalty but not when it is based on a refusal to face the truth. There is a growing tide of Catholics who have bravely faced the criticisms head on and are seeking to make changes. They have my respect. In the end they are better friends of the Church than those who dismiss every criticism out of hand or - and this is just as bad - argue "We are no worse than anyone else." Not exactly a slogan to win hearts and minds (even if it were true - and it isnt.)

[Portubed]

@mikelheron20 If you don't care about what Catholics believe, meaning their opinion shouldn't count and no respect is to be had about the fact that Western civilization is built on the back of the Church, anti-clericalism seems to fit. People like Robertson, as I've read some of his articles, mix hatred with historical brittish anti-Catholic bigotry. I'll take your criticism seriously when you also direct it to Planned Parenthood who STILL actually do nothing about child rape.

[Portubed]

The last observations by C. Hitchens are so frivolous! One can learn about the fact that there exist male prostitutes and how STDs may be transmitted from any newspaper! Also, he was addressing the moral sense of the person who, knowing they are doing something wrong, acknowledges it and takes the FIRST STEP towards morality, i.e. by at least making it less bad (still NOT good, NOT an exception). He's just gossiping because there's no real argument to be made here.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed Why don't you put it in another more practical perspective instead of relying on your crooked morality: If people took the dhimmwit's words seriously, he would've been responsible for the deaths of thousands, perhaps millions of people. The ruler of the Vatican, like Dawkins stated, on behalf of humanity, is either stupid, dim, or ignorant. Defending him and his evil, backward beliefs only grant you his crooked morality and intelligence. Humanism conflicts with backward thinkings.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Nope, you're the one who is stupid, dim or ignorant. Your argument doesn't make sense since you don't even begin to understand what the problem entails. The Church doesn't promote lack of prudence when people have AIDS, it's actually better for them not to have sex along with not using condoms. You can call it evil all you want because you're the one thinking it's crooked but that's your problem. It makes sense, it's charitable and coherent and would save a lot of lives.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed Whatever you justify for the Pope's remarks, the blood is still on his hands. There is no justification for a criminal like the Pope and the entirety of his network. Really? Dumbass, we're a species biologically engineered by evolution to fuck, and you think people really need to have their rights to enjoy satisfaction taken away? I hope you never get laid, and have children because indoctrination is a wonderful thing after all isn't it?

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Throwing around meaningless words like "criminal" or "dumbass", right. We're engineered to have families for sure, which isn't really all about satisfaction. We should also be engineered to be a lot nicer than what you act like. Would be a shame if the world was full of people like you, sadly it seems it actually is. Please don't feel threatened by a person's capacity for chaste and awesome relationships where they fully give themselves to one another. :)

[divinegod102]

@Portubed Well, there are unfalsifiable reasons why there is such thing as the separation of church and government, specifically from the church's backward ideologies as explicitly proposed by the pope himself. By the way, what's a "capacity for chaste", Captain Dubious? Chances are you're too intellectually inept to understand the irony I am trying to elucidate unless your parents knew how to properly use a condom, because abstinence worked out quite well for Virgin Mary, eh?

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 I said "capacity for chaste and awesome relationships". See, I can mention that without questioning your intellectual ineptness, another very human capacity you fail to appreciate and practice (restraint and charity). I'm sorry for your hostility, you just prove you have nothing to add. Wish you the best, but I'll have to leave you to the loneliness your destructive and pointless rants deserve, bye.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed It is a rather hard task for the pope to restraint his stupidity and his ability to wipe the blood off his hand. I, too, would refuse to debate with someone who has virtually zero unfalsifiable argument to back up his point and defend a criminal.

Boo hoo hoo! Because it's tough to not rely on a mental crutch of religion and a vile figure which is the reincarnation of pure ignorance. Wish you the best, defending a criminal with your circular logic, too.

[Portubed]

This episode of interpreting a comment by the Pope proves really well what may be at the root of the many atheistic misunderstandings of religion: 1) not reading properly what the statement is, at the source and context (not THROUGH the media!); 2) not distancing one's view from what is being said, immediately finding a hole in it to prove one's own view. The Pope admitted NO exception. He answereds about whether there was ANY moral value in using it, saying the PERSON might, not condom itself.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed The pope explicitly condemns the use of condom as well as educating people about using condom. Guess what? Your holy father now has blood in his hand.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Don't be silly. He proposes a way of life, not a way of death. He never told people to have unsafe sex, and that includes more than just AIDS or any STDs, it includes broken hearts and broken families. What is actually safe and what he educates people about is a human way of living sexuality, with conscience and good decisions, such as not having sex when it endangers someone! The only "blood" on someone's hands is your own from your prejudiced remarks.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Don't be silly. He proposes a way of life, not a way of death. He never told people to have unsafe sex, and that includes more than just AIDS or any STDs, it includes broken hearts and broken families. What is actually safe and what he educates people about is a human way of living sexuality, with conscience and good decisions, such as not having sex when it endangers someone! The only "blood" on someone's hands is your own from your prejudiced remarks.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 Don't be silly. He proposes a way of life, not a way of death. He never told people to have unsafe sex, and that includes more than just AIDS or any STDs, it includes broken hearts and broken families. What is actually safe and what he educates people about is a human way of living sexuality, with conscience and good decisions, such as not having sex when it endangers someone! The only "blood" on someone's hands is your own from your prejudiced remarks.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed "Condom is not a moral way of life, it makes it worse." - The pope.

First off, I've never said that the pope has told people to have unsafe sex, but instead emphasizing on abstinence instead of using condom, which is probably the most ridiculous remark I've ever seen in my life because homo sapiens are biologically engineered to have sex. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been affected by that statement and now you're denying the victims of their justice? How pathetic, and ignorant.

[Portubed]

@divinegod102 I don't care much how you "feel" about it. Surely I'm used to the idea that people are hooked on sex. The most plausible and loving way to lead your ability to have sex is to refrain from doing so most often. Do you realize that? Both refraining and acting sexually must be an exercise in humanity and not just driven by impulse. Condoms do make it worse because since it's far from 100% effective, the problem continues. Google: Edward Green The Pope Was Right, Washington Post.

[divinegod102]

@Portubed "Condoms do make it worse because since it's far from 100% effective." You're right, because not educating people to have safe sex by using condoms and birth controls are evil. If you were in a high school, or public's health education class, you would certainly fail miserably along with your idiotic, absurd delusion. You tell me to believe in your biased search? How about you type in: Pope's statement on condoms? The pope is just AS ignorant as a typical radical fundamentalist.