EC5. Plato's Republic "Allegory of the Cave" - Animated (Early Church 5)

[Mr131211109876543210]

They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog - guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, [O Muhammad], "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among [the speculators] from anyone." ~the Qur'an

[albeaver89]

Sounds like a result of oppresive third parties.

[CiliosX]

Its like my senior year of high school all over again

[38dragoon38]

What a great argument against what we call "democracy."  The ones that control public perception and, therefore, public policy, are the shadow puppet masters.

[jmm1233]

THX1138 seems like a modern version of this tale right to the moment of entering into the above and facing the sun

[MacNutz2]

@jmm1233 That is a most interesting observation.  In deed, there are numerous parallels.

[Tincuradan]

People are sharing their views on the allegory, I'd like to add a private concept, in which this allegory is a recursive criticism of interpretation of writing in general. Sophists are everywhere, some honest, some not. Consider the fact that the alphabet is rather new, reading about other cultures is the craze, and the first foreign propaganda is developed, most likely by the Egyptians. Consider the inflammatory and divisive effect some old texts still have. (cont'd)

[Tincuradan]

Would not whole tribes of the uneducated be spellbound into stupidity by this new symbolic language? Would there not emerge a new class of "Readers" who would sit in darkness, studying scrolls from far away lands by candlelight? Would they not be perceived as imprisoned shadows of the real by Free Greeks? Of course, to make them take notice, one must use the medium most likely to get their attention, even if it's slightly hypocritical to do so.

[groovyengineer]

The problem with this Allegory is you see other people in the cave, and those same people see you in the cave.

[Xoroaster]

@groovyengineer Thank you for that. That confirms what i'm seeing. There's a huge infinite reality problem here, and it easily slides into being a universal fit for everyone, depending on their individual circumstances. Trying to script this, in a way that makes sense, and addresses the issues, is a bit difficult.

[Mectrixctic]

How do they go to the bathroom?

[Jaybird196]

This was a beautiful cartoon. I really liked the message about the task of the "enlightened man", and the way the cave-dwellers lived in the darkness of ignorance.

[Xoroaster]

@Jaybird196 I like that concept to. And he puts it in an "idea"-related context, where its just part of a duty to the "greater good" to bring more people out of the cave.

It becomes problematic, however, when the idea of "who is in the cave" is introduced. Everyone thinks they have enlightenment, and therefore, has a duty to head back into the cave. it borders on Proselytization.

[markdzima]

If it'syour intention to connect this allegory to Gnostic rejection of the material world, and their desire to return to the spiritual realm, and their religious concepts regarding "light", then I think you're on the right track. What Plato calls "shadows", Buddhists would call Maya, and scientists would call "reality". Many scholars have over-emphasized Socrates as a champion of "reason" while ignoring the strong element of the irrational that is so important in understanding the dialogues.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima That is basically my intention. I've been trying to script a video, only explaining this allegory. And it's not easy. It is easily bastardized into ambiguity, and infinite levels of "reality", until you get to ultimate "reality".

I keep trying to figure out if this allegory is "brilliant", or a disease, or both. And I don't think its just this allegory. I'm not sure how much Plato intended to be universally applicable, but its ambiguous enough that it ends up there.

[markdzima]

@Xoroaster I think that Plato intended this allegory to have a very specific meaning. I think that to understand it one must understand the parallel telling of this allegory that is found in the mythology within PHAEDRUS. Unfortunately for the lovers of Plato/Socrates, I would tend to classify the allegory as "disease" (to borrow your term). Plato is not truly part of the Greek intellectual tradition that leads to science. Science is just the worthless study of shadows. (cont'd)

[markdzima]

@markdzima (cont'd) I see the allegory of the cave as a statement about the value of "mystical" experience, as opposed experience of the natural world. The contemplation of the sun directly, is the contemplation of a mental photism which is Plato's idea of the true Divine. He's part of the religious tradition that led to Plotinus's NeoPlatonism, certain doctrines of Gnosticism, and, yes, ideas that show up in the Gospel of John. I intend to do a video series of my own on this eventually.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima Thank you for that.  I can't say Plato is necessarily a strength of mine. I can fudge it, and I really had not considered the effect it could have on other religions, until recently.

Mental photism. I had not considered that, and that's highly interesting. There's a lot more here, that I'm aware of. That's for sure.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima part 2...Does that sound vaguely correct? Or am I just making up a bunch of bs? ;-D

[Dudeamis]

@Xoroaster I think of it as the other way, when you grow up in the cave knowing only the cave you accept what your fellow cave dwellers call reality, it isn't until you're taking out of the cave, away from those fellows in the cave that you can see the world for what it is.

[Xoroaster]

@Dudeamis I like that quite a lot. And that is one level to Plato's allegory, that I find really interesting.

What is problematic, is that the guy on the surface, is never said to have found "Reality." Just a "greater reality", than those in the cave. And it begs the question of what is "Ultimate Reality?" Plato hints, that what we know as "reality", is just a shadow.

It's complicated further by individual understandings of enlightenment. Everyone, thinks everyone else, is in the cave.

[Dudeamis]

I tried to go back into the cave last year, for a girl. When it all fell apart, I scrambled out of the cave with all I had and never looked back.

[ketsan]

@voiceofreason467 Book 7

[Xoroaster]

@voiceofreason467 I clarified the line above to "literaturepage." It goes straight there now. 

[Xoroaster]

@voiceofreason467 Beginning of Book 7. At least on the translation I have.

[77Totems]

I was totally unaware of this animation, seeing it done like this brings the point home better. Thanks

[KrokrX]

Thanks for sharing this.

[prodprod]

Maybe it's just the curmudgeon in me or the literalist, but I always thought that there was a lot that those guys in the cave could infer about the nature of reality by looking at the shadows on the wall. They certainly wouldn't actually take the shadows for actual, living things. After all, each of them would be able to raise their own arms and hands and see its own shadow cast on the wall, ask their fellows to do the same.

[prodprod]

(cont'd) (2) Then you could reach over with your hand, see your shadow touch the shadow of his head. He could do the same, while you felt his hand touch your head. In that way you could begin to connect the shadows on the wall with identifiable substance -- what you could feel with your hands, the change in the shape cast on the wall as you turned your hand. Any kind of thought would lead you to conclude that the shadows were "cast" from physical objects.

Yeah, it's a metaphor. What can I say?

[Xoroaster]

@prodprod lolz. Trollin Plato! Been dead for 2300 years and he still can't get a break. ;-D

[77Totems]

@prodprod At 1:30 "there is a raised way", notice how they can't see their own shadows now.

[prodprod]

@77Totems I see. But even if they're unable to see their own shadows, they can obviously still see their own hands and arms in silhouette against the illuminated wall. Once you can do that, you can distinguish close objects from far away ones by way of triangulation. You can determine the distance to the wall. You could determine that "objects" on the wall have no difference in distance relative to one another (as distinct from the distance between your hand and the wall).

[prodprod]

(cont'd) (2) That is, even in what appears to be very limited observational circumstances, you can do experiments and draw inferences that vastly open up your realm of understanding. You can look at the sky and see a solid dome just above the mountaintops (as countless generations did) or see a vast realm of space in which the stars are actually distant suns.

In a sense, one doesn't have to leave the cave, but just look at the shadows in the right way.

[prodprod]

(cont'd) (3) I suppose this is just the way my mind works, but I always wanted Plato's story to end with the man, having come up out of the cave to see the brilliant light of the sun shining in sky and then to ask, "Well, that's wonderful. But isn't the sun just a shadow after all? What casts the shadow of the sun?"

[bromordra]

Why was this not part of my elementary education?

[Xoroaster]

@bromordra No kidding. The first time I ever heard of any of this stuff, was in college.

[bromordra]

@Xoroaster I was aware of plato, but why was I never told that Orson Welles did a whole cartoon series about philosophy?! This is awesome stuff.

[Xoroaster]

@bromordra lolz. Yeah, it is pretty cool. I'm trying to find something that will go into the "Theory of Forms", but I'll probably have to do that myself. ;-D

[ketsan]

@bromordra Weirdly I think it might be in the UK. About a year ago I had a friend ask me about this for her nine year old's school project.