I see alot of witnesses on the Internet now days. Once it was forbidden, but as always, they change. Reason I know I was raised a JW, and as soon as I was old enough to see the deception, and mind control, I got out.
All this anti Jehovahs Witness hate,and still they preach in over 500 languages in every nation,every minute of every day!Wow if I were God and wanted to tell people something,I know who I'd be using!!!Jesus did say his true followers would be hated and that the good news would be preached in all the inhabited Earth,I have never seen so much hatred and lies aimed at any other group,the only group preaching the good news globally! If JW are the apostates who is doing Gods preaching work!?no one!
@grazv61that has always been my question and it never gets answered. I always ask them to point out for me the present day disciples obeying the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20, I never get a straight answer and if they name someone I always say "why havent they knocked on my door, why havent they approached me on the street" and I get no answer.
The KING JAMES VERSION is a version not a TRANSLATION and there r MANY, like the septuagint version, the Aramaic targums, the Syriac peshitta Version,AQUILA'S version and Latian Vulgate,PENTATEUCH
We offer prayers THROUGH Jesus, so we are asking in his name-he is the 'Amen'.At the end of prayer say, "through Jesus Christ, Amen". We research ALOT more than other religions, and we gain accuracy. REFER to: John 14:6,13-26= Father is to be glorified in connection with the Son=1 Timothy 2:5,6:13,Galatians 3:19, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Ephesians 5:20,Phillipians 1:11,2:5-11, Hebrews 8:6,9:15,24,12:24. Jesus and disciples pray to the Father=Matthew 6:9,10,11:25,14:23,15:36,26:26,Luke22:17,John 11:41
The Watchtower Society does an EXCELLENT job of restoring true meaning to the bible. Biased translators who believed in the 'Trinity' doctrine changed the bible hundreds of years ago to suit their end. NOW, Jehovah God is correcting their errors, and JW's are his servant on earth today. This is the time of the end of all wickedness, and truth is to be restored=Daniel 12:4. Jesus fortold that he would have a 'faithful slave' lead his people and make disciples=Matthew 24:14, 28:19,20, 24:45-47 :D
A Dangerous cult founded by C T Russell a conman of the highest and continued by Judge Rutherford and dangerous greedy controlling Conman and his very big house. Both were flim flam men who fleeced millions
@mofo34736 you are dumb no matter which site you post this on. You can copy and paste this all over youtube, it wont make it make any sense. Its still stupid. Theres always option 3.
Didnt Jesus say, "WHY are you calling me good, there is but ONE who is good...and where is this ONE who is good?? He is in heaven. Where was Jesus?? lets just say, NOT in heaven. Option 1. Jesus is saying Im not good, only God is good. 2. Im not good, only God is good and MOFO is a dumbass. 3. MOFO is a dumbass
@mofo34736 Jesus also told him "to enter life" (to be SAVED) what must you do?? KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS! ....say what? But, Paul said they were a curse, they were abolished, they were worthless and only showed you that you sucked. Paul said GRACE saved us, not the Law. But, wait, Jesus also said not one jot or tittle would change from the law until HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED!. Hey, look, its still here.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER a tutor(LAW).
there is another scripture where in the real bible it says that God is within you, but in the JW bible its changed to read God is in union with you... my son ended up pointing this one out to me, I cant believe how many passages of the real bible has been changed it just show why they need you to read only their bible. Oh yes they will say you can read your own bible, but just wait till you start becoming a member it will all change you will be doing what the Org says for you do do.
Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim God's name-Matthew 6:9,10. We proclaim His kingdom is coming to bring true peace to the world. JW's follow early disciples.Jesus said pray to His Father,OUR Father-Matthew 6:9,10. He always prayed to his God. YES, Jesus has a God, he said so repeatedly. Can Jesus be God and then pray to himself? READ Matthew 11:25,14:19,15:36,26:26; Mark 1:35,9:29; Luke 10:21,11:1,22:32; John 6:11,23,13:3,14:1,20:17,31
@rhdtv2002 Pray THROUGH Jesus, asking in his name...At the end of prayer say, "through Jesus Christ, "Amen". Jehovah's Witnesses research ALOT more than other religions, and gain accuracy. REFER to: John 14:6,13-26= Father is to be glorified in connection with the Son=1 Timothy 2:5,6:13,Galatians 3:19, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Ephesians 5:20, Phillipians 1:11,2:5-11, Hebrews 8:6, 9:15,24,12:24. Jesus and disciples pray to the Father, Jehovah=Matthew 6:9,10,11:25,14:23,15:36,26:26,Luke22:17,John 11:41
yeah but they keep the bible prettymuch perfect for our modern english language, look at pretty much every other religionthe removed alot more from the bible including gods name
Jesus taught his followers to go from house to house. He wants more people to become disciples. Jehovah's Witness are following Jesus our Lord. Read Acts 5:42, "...from house to house they continued ..declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus." Acts14:21,"...making quite a few disciples,..." Acts 20:20-"...teaching you publicly and from house to house." Jesus commands his disciples to make more disciples. READ Matthew 28:19,20-"Go therefore and make disciples of people..."
I'm not a jw but I do research the crimes of other religions and doctrines and I find that the sins of other religions make jw's look like saints...as for Jesus he is the firstborn he is the son of the father...what. Makes a father a father ? Or what does firstborn mean ? What does mean to be a son?
Let's talk about catholics who was part of hitlers army involved in the slave trade or how they wiped out the native people of north america casting the first stone are we
Good message..I hope many jws watch this and realize that Jesus taught the greatest in heaven is a servant, not one who strives for a higher position in heaven.. That is what satan did and that is why he got thrown out.. The scriptures tell us to not follow the doctrine of devils.. I hope the jw's pay attention and repent and turn to Jesus Christ for the truth,, Since Jesus said,, I am the way, the truth, and the life...
The most important thing here is that Jehovah's Witnesses more trust to their New World Translation than the Bible in its Original Languages, so I ask to Jehovah's Witnesses: "If God couldn't keep His original word, so where from you have translated your New World Translation. Really it's a great nonsense to trust to your NWT". But I read the Bible only in its Original Languages, I don't trust to any translation at all. Because there never can be an exact translation at all. Thank You.
The New World Translation is just as accurate as any other bible. 2 Tim 3:16-17 I had one for a while and I regret throwing it out. I can prove Jesus is Lord with a NWT just as easily as NKJV or NIV Mathew 28:19 Rev 1:8 WHen did God die? Gen 1:26,27 Let us make man in our image. JW confuse issues with arguements about words. Jesus died for our sins. this is important.
Charles Francis Potter: In "the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures...the anonymous translators have certainly rendered the best manuscript texts...with scholarly ability and acumen."
Jason BeDuhn: "While it is difficult to quantify this sort of analysis, it can be said the NW[T] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared."
-Greek Scholar in his book: "Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament"
If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"?
What kind of confidence can anyone have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence? This represents about 53% of the time they have existed!
If John 14:14 and those others are examples of corruption, there is much to worry about.
Strange that they read only NWT and then ignore HEAPS of others tranlations where other translator take a similar stance. But ah, those translators are not Jehovah's Witnesses.
King James .John 14; 14 If ye ask any thing in my name , I will do it.
New world translation; John 14;14 . If you ask anything in my name I will do it. Sorry there is no ME in either . so thats kinda spoilt your Witness bashing party for the moment hasn,t it .
Man, the NWT is NOT the only translation that has John 14:14 that way. I teach hebrew and Greek in brazil and my opinion is that JWs Translation is accurate. Not perfect but the most accurate Bible Translation I know here in Brazil.
the NWT is NOT the only translation that has John 14:14 that way. Your ignorance (and bias) show up clearly when you barf up this example. That's NOT a "corruption" but simply a rendering using better manuscript evidence, that other Versions, like New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible, Berkeley, New Berkeley, etc. And they're all pro-Trinitarian co-equality Bibles. And THEY left the word "Me" out of John 14:14 too. And the other Versions that have "Me" there have a footnote saying "Mss omit 'Me'".
@21crosscheck21 for some reason the comments are somehow locked on your other video.......not sure what that's about. Anyway, I was trying to respond to your laughable hypocrisy about "doing homework"....but couldn't cuz the comment thing is frozen or something.....Anyway, what I was gonna say was that you're funny for saying "do homework" when YOU were the one who did NOT do homework but were SLOPPY about John 14:14, in thinking wrongly that only the NWT renders it without the word "Me"....
@21crosscheck21 ....YOU were the one who even admitted that you did NOT do research. LOL.. I was thinking the same exact thing about YOU, yesterday, with the same exact word. I was like "this drone did not do his homework, on John 14:14." Then when confronted with your sloppy error, and that it's because of WEAK MSS SUPPORT, and that other Versions (not just the NWT) also leave out "Me", you say it doesn't matter, "parallel is wrong" arf arf, or jump on "but they put Jehovah in the NT."
@sweetmuzix leaving out words to the bible does matter..........no matter the translation. May God grant the ones who ask for wisdom receive it, and give grace to those who seek him.
@21crosscheck21 and one other point I wanted to make about your other sloppy mistake about the "Westcott and Hort" and the NWT, is that you are wrong in thinking that the NWT went ONLY by the W&H text... THAT WAS JUST ONE OF THEM THEY USED, KID.... One of the main ones, but NOT the only one. (Captain's FACE-PALM) And you're just assuming that the "oldest and best" have "Me." If that's the case, then why does the NEB Version NOT have it in there? A pro-trinity Version? LOL.... FAIL....
@21crosscheck21 What bible do you use?? Why do you HATE the Jehova's Witness with such vigor to read every passage in "their Bible" to try and find something you can attack to PROVE you MORE? Or, did someone else do it and you just jumped on board and parrotted their disparaging work trying to make it your own? Many Bibles don;t have "me" in that verse. So, therefore I have set you straight OR, therefore, now I have set you straight. Did that change my meaning???
@sweetmuzix Quick question: who translated the NWT?
Surely must have been a great translator, because whoever did this translation, made some breakthrough translations like John 1:1, that sounds exactly the same as spiritist's Johannes Greber New Testament translation. however no Linguistic Doctor, or Hebrew, Greek language expert has ever come out and said I translated this. Which is why NWT has no value at all, a biased version made by the governing body of the WT is obviously evil. WAKE UP!
Don't waist your time, I've had the pleasure of debating with this person in other instances and he proved to be completely dishonest in his dealings with others. Anyone who lies or cheats to gain the upper hand in discussions of the bible are not worthy of addressing.
To which I'd add, apostates are all one in the same. Don't waist your time.
@SmalltimR I have never seen this video, but I have seen John 14:14 in the Watchtower Organization's large, brown 1984 version of the Bible, & their footnote to this scripture clearly says that it should be understood as reading, "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." Yes, Jesus made it clear that we could talk to Him...& why not? Did not Jehovah God point all man to His Son??
Jehovah God's Plan of Salvation is through His Son, Jesus, & we are to be witnesses of Him (Acts 1:8)
On John 14:14, if in fact Jesus would have said they could ask "him" personally, that he would have quoted it as "you can ask *me anything in my name?
Which really doesn't seem very coherent when you think about it does it?
But what if... we couple this with the words that no person could come to the Father without going through the son first? Wouldn't that make more sense? AKA. through Christ as in asking is his name.
On the second point(Acts 1:8) I would simply point-out that there is more to this scripture than simply bearing witness to Jesus. And we can see this when we consider the entire body of scripture which states that they(those) will receive power in holy spirit descends upon them and they they will be witnesses of Jesus in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth.
@SmalltimR I don't like to participate in the Watchtower's style of "circular reasoning" which takes what they can "use" from God's Word to then use "reasoning" to "make it say" what it really does not say.
I have a radical idea...what if we could just let God's Word speak for itself?? Or here's an even more radical proposal: What if we were to just believe that God's Word already SAYS what it "means," & that we don't need an ORGANIZATION to explain it to us?? Can you say, "Holy Spirit"??
@SmalltimR 1John 2:26-27 reads, "These things I write you about those who trying to mislead you.
"And as for you, the anointing that you received from Him remains in you, AND YOU DO NOT NEED ANYONE TO BE TEACHING YOU, but, as the anointing from Him is teaching you about all things, & is true, & is no lie, & just as it has taught you, remain in (union with) Him."
John 1:7 "If we are walking in the light as He Himself is in the light...the blood of Jesus...cleanses us from all sin." (NWT)
@SmalltimR Yes, the JWs are certainly & sincerely "trying" to follow Christ, but they are really following & serving the Watchtower; it's just a fact. Trying to "follow Christ" without "coming to Christ," or without understanding that one must "come to Christ" & humbly accept the benefits of His sacrifice that would cover all of their sins, & that would wash them clean in the sight of God, & that would then allow God to actually adopt them through Holy Spirit is just not the same thing at all!
@SmalltimR 1) Though followers of the Watchtower get "baptized in Christ's name," it's not the same thing as FOLLOWING HIM as their Shepherd, in fact if any JW comes to understand that their standing before God has everything to do with following Christ, & NOTHING to do with following the organization, & if they also become a Christian by obeying Christ, they will be DISFELLOWSHIPPED as an "apostate" & it was the same way back in the days of Jesus' ministry; His own people screamed for His death
Respond to this video... 2) Praying in the name of Jesus is (again) not the same thing as COMING to Christ, or the same thing as recognizing that only in HIM do we have forgiveness of our sinful state, nor is it the same as accepting that we need His blood to cover our sins, & that following Jesus as our Shepherd is God's plan; that in coming to Christ, we are obeying God!
Respond to this video... 3) Followers of the Watchtower truly & sincerely believe that they are honoring Christ & His sacrifice...but they do not know that their "understanding" of Christ & of who He is, & what His willing sacrifice really means for all of mankind is based on deception...I am not trying to upset you, but the Watchtower has "preached a different Jesus" than who He really is...
"For if someone comes & preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached..." see 2Cor 11:3-4
@SmalltimR What Christ's followers "really do" is to first COME TO CHRIST, & to then simply allow the Holy Spirit to direct them in all things.
We are each completely different from each other, & we are not here to be "carbon copies" of any "blue print," but as individuals, we are to follow God through following Christ, & submit to the Holy Spirit which leads us & which helps us to heal & to grow & be all that God meant for us to be, & follow the path of Christ without beating ourselves up!!
Respond to this video... 3) Followers of the Watchtower believe they "honor" Jesus' sacrifice in their somber observance of His death at the Memorial held each year, yet they pass up the very emblems which Christ said that we, as followers of Him...as HIS SHEEP...were to partake of; yes, they "pass up" everything that Jesus Christ's death as the perfect sacrificial Lamb of God means for all of us in favor of believing & following "man"; an ORGANIZATION of man. (Please John chapter 6)
Respond to this video... "...life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you...This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in Him whom that One sent forth...Jesus said to them: 'I am the bread of life. HE THAT COMES TO ME will not get hungry at all...THE ONE THAT COMES TO ME I will by no means drive away...
"No man can COME TO ME unless the Father, who sent Me, draws him...He that believes in Me HAS everlasting life." NWT See Jesus' own words at John 6: 27,35,37,44,47...
Respond to this video... 4) The Watchtower has had much "literature" & many "studies" on the person of Jesus, but as the scriptures clearly show when compared to these very studies & pieces of literature, they are not in agreement with what God's Word tells us...
Jesus IS "The Word of God"; He is not a separate, "little god," but "The Word of God." (John 1:1, 14; Rev 19:13).
Jesus is not a separate "created" being, but is "the image of the invisible God..." Col. 1:15; 2:9
On the issue of Jesus being the Word and a little God, there is a discrepancy under the terms you proposed earlier (taking the bible literally). And that where the theme from bible surrounding Jesus was built-up on Jesus as a subordinate to His Father(taking things literally). And by that, I mean "the Son", and
"prayed to His Father" whom Jesus claimed to be His God as well. And more importantly where He also where he himself declared that the Father was greater than himself.
@SmalltimR The WT has long confused many as to who Jesus really IS...if JWs truly understood, if they knew the REAL "truth," they would be leaving in droves...please don't get angry. Let's see if we can look at this issue calmly...
Jesus is THE WORD of God. Jesus was "brought forth" from the person of God; picture God "bringing forth from the person of Himself an "expression of Himself"; His Word, in the person of Jesus. "From God I came forth." John 8:42 See John 1:14; Rev 19:13
Respond to this video... Jesus is not a separate, "little god," but is God's only begotten Son. You "create a chair," you beget, or "bring forth," your child.
All through Isaiah 43 to the end of the book you will find many scriptures where God makes it abundantly clear that THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. (Also see John 17:3)
Jesus was "lessor" than God when He "became flesh" though within Him dwelt the divinity of God (Col 1:19; 2:9)
RE: . You "create a chair," you beget, or "bring forth," your child.
I don't see this changing anything.
RE: God makes it abundantly clear that THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.
That's true, though the scriptures make it clear that there are other gods as well. And Jesus(speaking to the Pharisees), reminded them of this when he addressed the charge that He made himself out to be God.
On the issue of Jesus and the one true God, Paul spoke of Jesus and God as being distinctly separate when he stated that there was but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 8:6
Similarly, prior to being stoned, Stephen gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at His right hand(Acts 7:55)
In Rev 4:8 to 5:7, God is seated on His throne, but Jesus isn't. He has to approach God and take a scroll from His right hand...
@SmalltimR All I can say is that it is my understanding in reading the scriptures that Jesus is OF God; that He is OF God; that from God He came forth, (John 8:42; John 16: 27-29); that He is God's Word (John 1:1, 14; Rev 19:13), & that being that He is OF God, His Word, "brought forth" from the person of God, He is thus not "lower than," even though as a separate being brought forth from the person of God, He serves God's purpose.
We cannot assume that Scripture means anything different...
I'd agree, however given the emphasis on Jesus' subordination to His Father, I really don't see how we can circumvent this. ie.Jesus claimed the Father was greater than Him(His God). A mindset that carried through past His resurrection(see: Mary and brethren John 14:28). And Paul made the same distinctions(Father and Jesus) in 1 Cor 8:6/3:21,23. And so I would ask what are to make of such scriptures?
@SmalltimR At the point of John 14:28, Jesus was still in "a slave's form"; still in subjection to God the Father as a perfect human, & I do not see Jesus' position of being OF God, or as being, "The Word of God," denied.
Revelation 19:13 clearly identifies Jesus as the WORD of God, which compliments John 1:1 & John 1:14.
RE: Jesus is of God, from God and God's word(2)...
When you say that you've based understanding on the scriptures, I would ask if you've considered this understanding the possibility that this understanding is either incomplete or based on partial scriptures?
At which point I would ask you if you can explain why anyone would choose an incomplete interpretation over that of a complete one?
@SmalltimR I only explain what the scriptures clearly say to the best of my ability; I explain my understanding as clearly as I am able, & a share those scriptures which support (in my understanding) this...
RE: cannot assume He is in any way less than God...
Earlier, I shared a references where Jesus showed the Pharasees that other gods existed under His Father. Additionally, I also posted numerous bible passages explicitly presenting Jesus as a subordinate to His Father on earth and in heaven(prior too, and following his coming to earth). And though I can see why you might present Jesus as the One true God, I honestly don't know how we could ever circumvent this outstanding information.
RE: Jesus already existed IN the time period that we humans understand as the beginning.
I agree here also.
However, since the Father has no beginning and no end, such terms would be logically inappropriate to the terms for Him. However when in insert Jesus(as a finite being) it all makes perfect sense. And to help support this, the bible speaks of Jesus being by His Fathers side during and after the creation(See: Let US create...) and so there is very strong evidence for this concept.
@SmalltimR If you had ALWAYS existed, & at some point you were able to "bring forth" from the person of yourself an expression of YOU...your WORD...into a being separate from yourself, you would still be able to attribute YOUR qualities to the separate expression of YOU.
That is the best way I can think of to express it...
This is rather interesting actually. When I myself read Jesus being described as the first-born of all creation in Colossians, I considered that to be an open and shut case. However, to my surprise, I encountered most arguments toward this alone than any other passage in the bible. To which I considered all to be outright embarrassing. And the reason for this is the same reasoning you yourself mentioned where religions/organizations twist scriptures to their own needs.
@SmalltimR Yes, I remember that scripture being used to "show me" that Christ was a created being, but as there is no scripture that actually SAYS that Jesus was a "created being," or that He is, or ever was, an ANGEL, (see Hebrew chapter 1), and as "first-born" back then was more used as a TITLE, which projected due AUTHORITY, (which in the case of Jesus fits), the TITLE, "Firstborn," & in the case of our Lord, is not a "description."
Colossians 1:15-16 makes this point clear to me...KJV
42 Son`of the group of sons: Gen 49:3; Ex 4:22; 4:23; 6:14;11:5; Num 1:20; 18:17,17,17;26:5; Deut 21:15,16,17; 33:17;Judg 8:20;2 Sam 3:2; 2 Sam 13:21; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chr 1:29; 2:3,13; 2:25,25,27,42,50; 3:1,15; 4:4; 5:1,3; 8:1,30,38,39; 9:5,31,36,44; 26:2; Psalm 134:8; Mica 6:7; Jer 38:9
@SmalltimR I don't want to look up all of those scriptures...I have to go somewhere pretty soon...but could you pick one or two & paraphrase these if you don't want to quote them, & then point out the point you are making?
I don't believe that truth contradicts truth in any way, & that if truth ever DOES appear to contradict truth, that there something that we are missing, or there is a piece of the "puzzle" that is missing.
We know that many ancient writings were not included in the Bible...
Sorry, that was a last post prior to signing-off.
And I'll admit, it is rather RAW in nature. And so here's a summary of why I posted it.
The natural reading of the bible is that Jesus was God's first creature, the firstborn of all creation. There is nothing in the text that warrants the redefinition of "firstborn" and "creation" since 1:17 says that Jesus was *before all things, clearly a reference to time in the context.
However, here we have no other example of genitive function with reference to the term firstborn. Therefore the meaning is intrinsically partitive. And therefore, nothing in the context challenges the concept of Jesus being mediated in creation. And those who claim or argue this are either mislead into thinking this or sorely mistaken.
@SmalltimR I am not even going to pretend that I understand what you are saying, here, though I am certain that it is a very intelligent statement of what you are saying...
I am getting the "jist" of what (I THINK) you are saying: That you believe that Jesus is a CREATED being...is that right? If so, we simply disagree, but I don't worry about it.
Truth is still truth, no matter what we understand, & it will all be okay because whatever we need to really know will be made known...
If I had to summarize it, I would borrow your own words(which I liked btw) and state; that I believe what the bible says and not what people say. Therefore, what you quoted earlier(which I don't believe to be your own interpretation) is the product of men and not the bible. Therefore(in some indirect way), it seems as though you yourself have fallen prey to the terms posted earlier. ie. the Bible is being used to mean something it is not.
@SmalltimR referring to your words that you "don't believe to be my own interpretation," what, exactly, where you referring to? I am an intellectual person, & things have to make sense to me, or it will drive me nuts until they do, & it was very important to me to understand what I had always believed was a "PAGAN" concept: The Trinity.
It took me a lot of prayer, Bible reading, & speaking with spiritually mature persons before it "clicked" with me. I have expressed my own understanding.
What I meant to say, is that the reasoning(scriptural and external) were not your own arguments.
And as much as popular as these are, they have been around for a long as long as I can remember.
Having said that, I've always found the alternative reasoning of Col. 1:15 to be so poor, that it could only called insulting for all reading the scriptures. Which is a consequence twisting things into something they are not. see: 1:17
@SmalltimR Though I have sought help in understanding Biblical Truth, MY "understanding" is MINE. I do share what I have learned, so I ask you to please specify which interpretation or arguments that you feel are not mine...
I do not see any problem with Col 1:15; to what are you referring? Verse 17 seems to be in complete agreement with the entire picture of Jesus being OF God, FROM God; His Word.
"From God I came forth." John 8:42 Full divinity is in Christ! Col 2:9; John 1:1; Rev 19:13
I think it's important to point-out that the questions was never that of your own understanding, but rather, the existential reasoning that follows the bibles declaration of Jesus being the firstborn of creation. Which has been in circulation long before you or I ever came into being(see). And of course, whether or not one accepts such arguments as truth is entirely person dependent.
However... I have to say... that appealing to such arguments when it comes to bible reasoning does come in controversy with the initial terms you presented at the beginning of our conversation(religion and existential bible reasoning). So in effect, what we've end-up with, is substitution for a criticism which was once reserved for the WTS onto another group or body.
The biggest issue I have the entire firstborn & creation reformulation is that it contrasts very poorly with the context of the passage in question. And that is to say that the entire scripture associate with the declaration rather robust toward the concept of first being first(numerically) in a group of events(order) over that of an ulterior expression.
To which I would say... makes for a very poor argument insofar as bible reformulation goes. (continued...)
And so already, we have little wiggle room to appeal to alternate renderings from the term firstborn. However in the event that one should persist, the account goes-on to provide-us additional reinforcements.
1. For "in him" all things were created: all things have been created through him and for him.
2. He is *before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Here again, the scriptures reinforce the major term by order of events.
However... for what it's worth, I'm not sure that being OF God, God breathed or made in God's image changes anything at this stage. I mean... in all fairness, when we considering everything in existence is in effect from God, I really don't see that offering much on the issue at this stage.
I often read of such terms within the Trinity Doctrine.
And in a few particular cases, I've had people appeal to the Divinity of Christ under the threat of being a creation under God(the Father). However, I honestly don't think this does anything to challenge the claim under the terms of the arrangement as God's literal son. To which I'd ask; why would anyone believe Jesus as God's literal son would impact His divinity? (see: ELOHIM)
In continuing... the previous references correlate with Proverbs which speaks of Yahweh who creating a being as a first-fruit of the oldest of his works. Prior to the mountains, hills and prior to crafting the earth and even the first elements of the world. - Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26.
To which most scholars agree likely described Jesus prior to His coming to earth.
And so the idea of Jesus always existing really doesn't seem harmoneous with the bible.
@SmalltimR I like Proverbs chapter 8!! It speaks of God's attributes...both wisdom & also of Jesus at the same time, it seems, though I am not rereading it now...I have to leave soon.
You seem to be very well educated...perhaps you could chat with a Biblical Scholar; I must be way below your level of Scriptural understanding, but I do appreciate your points!! You're very smart, but though I am not as smart as you, I have peace, so I am content with what I read in God's Word... (smile)
TBH. I've never seen or spoken with a bible scholar in all of my days of research(over 25 now). Though I know the term gets thrown around severely in these corners(ie. Scholars agree etc etc). Though what most people don't realize is that Jesus did not speak highly of "Bible Scholars" and "Apologetic" (did you know that?). In fact, he said that the truth would not come to them, but that it would come to the mouth of the babes seeking the truth.
What IF our understanding was either influenced or misdirected by the beliefs of others(religion ect)?
And to that, I would borrow a statement from W.L Craig in a 2010 convention which stated that there is no wrong in seeking the truth, though missing the truth that would come as a great tragedy for us today!
And when I hear of people eliminating either Jesus' or His Father from the bible, I can't be feel just that.
Post-resurrection, Jesus is portrayed as being alongside and compared with God, as a separate being in heaven, in a different category, and rank(See: Philippians 2:11)
Additionally, it seems as though Jesus would continue to be a separate from God in heaven also. 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28 speaks of the end of wickedness, at which point, Jesus would hand over the kingdom to His Father, and be subjected to the One who subjected everything to him.
After His death, Jesus appeared to Saul(Paul) and spoke of the God which made the world and all that was in it. He went on to say that this God, the *only true God, would judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by the one whom He appointed, and resurrected from the dead(Acts 17:24, 31).
Here Paul described Jesus as being lesser than God and who was *restored by God to a life in heaven.
@SmalltimR Again, though Jesus is a separate being, He is still OF God, having been "brought forth" from the person of God; God's Word, we cannot, therefore, assume that He is in any way "less than" God, because He is God...
There is only ONE TRUE GOD according to the Bible. (See Isaiah ch. 43-56) Christians understand that this ONE TRUE GOD expresses Himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit. None is "less than" God because they are all a part of God; they ARE God.
Respond to this video... Jesus voluntarily "emptied Himself" & took on a "slave's form" in order to fulfill His role as a perfect, innocent, & blameless sacrificial Lamb of God "that takes away the sins of the world!" John 1:29, 36, but before He allowed Himself to be sacrificed, Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law for all of mankind, & He preached the message of salvation to God's People, The Israelites, who rejected Him (as many claiming to be "God's People" do today, & it's a shame!).
I'm starting to sense some controversy based on an earlier comment where Christ was either uncreated and/or equal too or God don't you think? And more importantly... it seems contradictory to the claim that the bible is straightforward. Or at least... in plain English(as highlighted in my previous comment). However, none of this changes the initial issue of Jesus announcing himself as a subordinate to His Father.
@SmalltimR I don't wish to argue. I believe in God's Word. I believe what God's Word says, & what it teaches.
The Watchtower has amassed hundreds of thousands of books & magazines & pamphlets explaining what God's Word "means," but God's Word does not need any man to explain what He has already said...
Though God's People want to understand more clearly what the Bible says, that does not include "man's" changing interpretation of it...later discarding it as "Old Light." God does not change
Additionally, assuming someone proposed a viewpoint from the bible and then someone were to point-out discrepancies with said proposals, then wouldn't that be an appropriate measure?
For example; you proposed several ideas based on bible scripture(and that's great) however, having read bibles, I immediately picked-up in several issues following these proposals. And so I think its important to point those out don't you?
@SmalltimR I'm not saying anyone is arguing with me; I am just saying that I do not want to argue with anyone. Followers of the Watchtower are taught to believe certain things, & all I want to do is to point them to what God's Word says & to answer any question to the best of my puny ability.
I am not trying to tell anyone to do anything, but rather to just be willing to look at what God's Word so clearly says, & to see it with their own eyes. That's all.
However, I had done a great deal of research on their beliefs and doctrines thanks to people like crosscheck21. Though prior to that, I had no real interest in that sect as a whole.
Having said that, I've observed a prominent self approving behavior from people claiming to serve God(or Jesus whatever) in the sense that everyone believes they are right(walking in the truth).
And I'm not trying to stir the pot. I simply want to point-out that this is very much a reality in cases such as these. BUT... I must say, that if we are basing our understanding on the scriptures(Holy Bible) then, many of your claims and observations with regards to being saved end-up being contradictory to the bible. And therefore, I would ask... why you would believe that your own beliefs are sound under such circumstances?
@SmalltimR I only have the Bible, which I personally do believe to be God's Word, & I choose to acknowledge what it says, & I choose to believe what it says.
If the Bible is wrong, I am trusting that God will make it known in His good time. If I am wrong in my understanding, I am trusting that as His Word promises that we shall be led & taught by the Holy Spirit, I trust in that to set me straight in God's own time.
I do not base any of my beliefs on any "doctrine of man."
And here is my personal criticism of this phenomenon. Given that everyone claims to be saved, and everyone must indulge or appeal to self-righteousness to defend their own faith, then how could one ever conclude who's right and who's wrong?
@SmalltimR You make SUCH a great point!!! So much of "man's religion" is based upon "appearances," & the judgment of others as to whether another is "right" with God, or "wrong" with God.
Coming to Christ & accepting the Blood of His sacrifice as "enough" to cover over our sins, we are promised in the scriptures that we are then adopted by God as His child, & Jesus promised that then the Holy Spirit of Jesus & God will come into us & mingles with our own spirit so that now we are His!
Respond to this video... Once a person has come to Christ, per God's arrangement, & once we have the Holy Spirit within us, it's a "done deal." It is entirely a personal thing. The one who's had this experience understands this, though, if they personally still hold beliefs in their mind that this wasn't "real," they may have a harder time with it, but they can't deny that they felt SOMETHING.
One who accepts God's Plan of Salvation is unique, but the blessing are the same!!
ie. Mary claims salvation through Christ and goes-on explaining her faith by means of the scriptures.
But there's an issue...
If/when someone shows Mary that her beliefs stand in contradiction to the scriptures, she claims that the Holy Spirit is guiding her(right?). However... other groups(sects) appeal to the exact same reasoning with completely opposing beliefs. And so what are bystanders to make of this?
@SmalltimR Yes, you certainly do ask "a legitimate question, but this entire thing is not about MAN, or about what anyone ELSE thinks or believes!! It is about each one of us, as individuals, to LOOK & to SEE FOR THEMSELVES what God's Word really says, & to decide FOR THEMSELVES what they want to do with the information that is available to them...
Jesus didn't die to give us religion; He died to give us a RELATIONSHIP with Him & with our heavenly Father, & truly what a gift that is!! (smile)
Assuming I was an uninvolved by-stander, and you proposed your faith to me(one of many), then how could I discern which faith is true? I mean... surely you wouldn't expect people to take your word for it do you? And wouldn't you admit that the only means we have to choose the truth from delusion when it came to faith was by identifying what is most harmonious with the Holy Bible?
@SmalltimR In regard to matters of God & Jesus & God's will for mankind, & what God & Jesus teach, I NEVER expect anyone to just "take my word for it"!! & I think I have been very clear in that...I have supplied scriptures to show what God's Word teaches; what Jesus teaches, how God pointed man to His son; how Paul shows us that in Christ we are FREE...yes, free from the bondage of "man" & his religion; free to be ourselves; & free to be now led by Holy Spirit; we don't need anyone to teach us!!
Earlier in your comments, you mentioned a few things that really made me think(good comments). And that was to let God's word speak for itself, AND that we wouldn't need an organization to explain it to us(correct). And I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. But that doesn't mean that the bible will be any easier to understand either. Or... that we wouldn't need help to come to terms with what's written in it.
@SmalltimR Yes!! You make another great point!! As we are individuals at different levels of spiritual understanding, & as we each can make a "contribution" to help other believers, we are encouraged in the Bible to "not to forsake the coming together" for upbuilding & so on.
The scriptures simply make it clear that we are under (first & foremost) the tutelage of the Holy Spirit (1John 1: 27).
Respond to this video... The point is, though Christians are encouraged to "come together," we are NOT under the AUTHORITY of any "man," or any religion, or an organization of "man," but we are "bought with the Blood of Christ," & in Him, we are His Sheep, & He is OUR "Shepherd," (no "man" is our "shepherd"), & we are FREE in CHRIST!! (John 8:12; 31-32,36)
I'd like to break out of character for a moment and share a few facts about the bible and some of the ideas mentioned in your comments. And I know you claimed that you were not a bible Scholar(I realize that). However... based on what you've written, I'm thinking that you likely have never read the entire bible either. And if not, I would encourage you to do so at your earliest convenience. Because it will change your life.
Having said that, those who have read the bible, would not invest in most of the mindsets you proposed(not trying to be mean here). But I can't think of a softer way to say it(sorry).
1. Organized religion(bad).
The bible clearly shows that Paul setup and established Christianity(religion). Which wasn't simply a one time affair. No in fact, it was his mission to establish Christian congregations, Why? So that Jesus' commandment could be carried out.
@SmalltimR Of course!! Yes, we know Paul set up Christian religion, but we are not UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF MAN, or religion, but that though we respect our spiritual authority, as in "respecting those taking the lead among us," we are first & foremost under the authority of God & Jesus Christ, to have a personal relationship with Jesus & God, & to allow ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit of God & Jesus.
Here again, we see the theme of the bible strongly opposing such a mindset. And this is not a simple case of a few scriptures, but entire summaries based on the mindset that salvation is highly pervasive and should be maintained in order to be achieved.
@SmalltimR I do believe that once we are saved, we are SAVED by the Blood of Christ, otherwise He would not have said so many times that when we have "come to Him," we HAVE eternal life; that when we become His, He GIVES us eternal life. Whatever any other scriptures say, once we have come under the power of God's Holy Spirit, we belong to God & to Jesus, & no matter what anyone else may say, one who is "in Christ" does not want to practice sin, but God works with us even if we are "bad," now.
Respond to this video... No matter what one may "look like" to someone else, God knows His children, & though one may be "bad," or though one may have gone on a wrong path, God is faithful, & as Jesus said, He knows His sheep, & His sheep know Him, & they hear His voice, & they follow Him...it doesn't mean that they won't screw up, or that their immaturity or shortcomings may get them into a lot of trouble, or that they may forget God, but that God doesn't forget THEM...ever!
Have you considered the possibility that this discussion could very well be such a correction?
Having read your views, I was able to point-out several bible contradictions with them. And I certainly felt the urgency in doing so. Just imagine if you are mistaken? The cost is of the utmost importance.
Also, are you aware that the bible warns of Satan masking himself as a light in the darkness?
@SmalltimR Yes, I understand your point, & yes, I do believe that Satan most definitely turns himself into an angel of light, but that is why I simply trust in God & in Jesus & in what I can read for myself in the Bible.
I am aware that there is much knowledge that has been withheld from mankind, & that I may be ignorant of many things, but I believe in God's Plan of Salvation. I am like the jailers who asked Paul what they had to do to be saved, & after it was explained to them, that was it.
May I ask how you came to the conclusions you now have?
RE: Jesus didn't die to give us religion...
Yes, I agree. However.. this statement can be slightly misleading, as there were no religions in that day. Though on the same side of the coin, he speak of building a church did he not? And so, the issue I have with this is where God's will had yet to be made manifest. However, the Apostles did work to carry out his will.
Having said that, we haven't yet addressed how we would fulfill His commandments without organization either. And to this I would ask, how else could this be done? And more importantly, where is it now? Because last I looked, baptism was not a commodity, but a necessity and commandment.
@SmalltimR I am not saying that religion is not important, or that religion does not serve a purpose, but that religion should not be a means of CONTROL, or an authority over any man HIGHER than the authority of God & Jesus in their life. And in the "name of religion," much evil has been committed; yes, "in the name of God," & because of religion, many have suffered terribly, both physically & emotionally.
God is first & foremost. God is everything to me. God is truth & God is love..
RE: I supplied scriptures to show what God's Word teaches; Jesus teaches. Paul shows us that in Christ we are FREE...yes, free from the bondage of "man" & his religion; free to be ourselves; & free to be now led by Holy Spirit; we don't need anyone to teach us!!
Yes, you did supply scriptures.
Though I have not read any supporting the omitense of organized religion.
@SmalltimR I do not know how to comment to you...I do not recognize the word, "omitense," & I could not find it in my dictionary.
Again, though religion may be good, & serve a wonderful & fulfilling purpose, it should NOT, nor should any religion EVER be of a HIGHER authority than Jesus & God or Holy Spirit by which we are to be led...we are imperfect humans with many levels of intelligence & education & egos & character, but there is only ONE GOD, & we are to look to Him as our authority...
Here again, as you saw, this nowhere near a black and white issue(as some would argue). And this isn't so much an open and shut case, as it would be a case of asking someone why they believe Jesus is God and vice-versa against the evidence in the bible. And I'm not criticizing anyone for this, other than saying, don't tell me you know better(not you specifically, but in the general sense I meant).
But overall... you're criticism seems to be that you don't like organized religion. Fine, I get that. However, the bible does not support this criticism and so, there is no way to establish this as anything but a personal opinion at this point. I mean.... in all fairness, where are these disciples suppose to get baptized according to Jesus' commandment? - And this is a very real issue.
@SmalltimR I didn't realize that I sounded "critical," though I do oppose any organization that holds their followers "hostage" in the sense that they are afraid to even CONSIDER looking at any "evidence" that might change what they believe as that organization has taught them to believe as ABSOLUTE TRUTH...
I am not against anyone belonging to any organization or religion; that's heir personal choice!! but my concern is when anyone does not know salvation in Christ, or know that they are free.
RE: we are NOT under the AUTHORITY of any religion or organization:
I'd agree, though I think most people recognize that the moment people come to together, they organize also. And in cases such as this, the authority of the bible would undoubtedly carry through just as it did with the congregations of Corinth etc. Though I really don't think its possible to fulfill Jesus commandment without some for of organization and that's a serious issue; past, present and future imo.
@SmalltimR LOL, Yes!! Of course we must have organization!! (smile) Can you imagine even a HOME where there is no organization?? Chaos to the MAX!!
The Christian Church that I belong to is one of loving fellowship that I personally feel good about being a part of, & I have learned that, generally, each church has it's own organization within itself; that is, like a family within their home, they "organize" in a way that works best for them, but they follow the Biblical guidelines of Christ.
In closing I would say that this statement(though nobble) will end-up being your biggest challenger. And that is where the bible itself contradicts most of the mindsets proposed in your comments. Which raises some rather controversial questions.
If we accept doctrines made-up of only select parts of the scriptures, then why would we choose these ones over those made-up of the entire bible(harmonious)?
@SmalltimR Nowhere in Scripture do we read that Jesus was ever a "created being," but that IN the beginning, He WAS; in other words, Jesus already existed IN the time period that we humans understand as "the beginning."
In Greek, the word for "was" denotes "past, continuous action." We can therefore understand John 1:1 to read, "In the beginning the Word CONTINUOUSLY was, & the Word was CONTINUOUSLY with God, & the Word was CONTINUOUSLY God.
There is only ONE TRUE GOD. Jesus is "God's Word."
Therefore I don't think the WTS is an heir to the concept of Jesus as a lesser being considering the direct context surrounding the issue from the bible. And I don't mean this by quoting a few scriptures here and there, but rather where 100's of passages directly make references to Jesus as the lesser being in the NT alone.
Therefore if we eliminate all indirect reasoning, then we'd have no choice but to accept Jesus as the literal Son of God rather than being equal to or God.
In a prayer to his Father; "Jesus looked up and said, Father, the time is here. Give your Son glory so that he can give you glory....(SNIP) ... This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. 4On earth I have given you glory by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5Now, Father, give me glory in your presence with ***the glory I had with you before the world existed.
@SmalltimR I have over twenty-three responses from you, & I am sure that I am "lost," & have therefore not been able to respond to all of your comments...
I am just a simple person. I try to answer a JWs question as best as I can. My goal is not to argue, but to point one to God's Word, & to His Plan of Salvation which is through His Son, Jesus.
God is one God. Jesus is His Word, & our Shepherd. There is only ONE PLAN of salvation, & it isn't through an organization. Jesus is "The Truth"
Respond to this video... "Therefore, as you have accepted Christ Jesus the Lord, go on walking in (union with) Him, rooted & being built up in Him & being stabilized in the faith (of the Good News about the Christ...Gal 1:7)
"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy & empty deception according to the tradition of men...& not according to Christ." NWT See Col 2:6-9
@SmalltimR Finally, doing one's best to be an imitator of Christ Jesus, WITHOUT being willing to COME TO HIM; without being willing to understand that it is GOD'S Plan that mankind COME TO JESUS to have their "sins covered over" by the Blood of Christ, & that God NEVER POINTED US TO ANY ORGANIZATION OR RELIGION, but that God pointed mankind to His Son, our reigning King, is not going to be pleasing to God, nor is being an imitator of Christ without recognizing Him fully showing obedience to God
Thanks to guys like Crosscheck, I found myself researching JW's and to my surprise... they seem to be the only group who are actively "trying" to follow Christ. Are they perfect? Hell no! - I personally would not agree to being called a prophet(even if it was only once!) nor would I publicly criticize other religions. Then again... surely you yourself would admit. There are religions out there who make a mockery out of the bible and it's intent.
@SmalltimR "Perfection" has NOTHING to do with the point of the issue!! No one is talking about being "perfect," but I am only saying that God is clear in His Word, & His Word is TRUTH, (John 17:17), & that no "clever reasonings" of man should deter us from "hearing" God. Further, Jesus clearly told us that HE is "The Truth," (John 14:6), & that we are to follow Him.
God pointed all of mankind to His Son, our reigning King & Savior, Jesus. Why is that so hard to understand? (Matt 11:28-30)
2. have you ignored the questions I asked or did not you not address them yet?
I get the feeling that were going in circles here.
Is this how people uphold Jesus' ministry today?
By avoiding direct answers?
I asked a very specific set of serious questions and I hope that either yourself of others here are just preaching against other religions. Because, at the sight of things, it would appear as though you are preaching therefore...
@SmalltimR Sorry! I am not trying to ignore you, but I have a small child here, & it is very difficult to explain simple things to a follower of the Watchtower beliefs; it just takes time to figure out how to answer you as plainly & as succinctly as possible, while supplying the proper scriptures that would clearly show you in your own Bible the truth of God & of His Plan of Salvation which is through His Son, our Lord & Savior, Jesus...
I see alot of witnesses on the Internet now days. Once it was forbidden, but as always, they change. Reason I know I was raised a JW, and as soon as I was old enough to see the deception, and mind control, I got out.
Trynhardnark 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
grazv6 2 weeks ago
All this anti Jehovahs Witness hate,and still they preach in over 500 languages in every nation,every minute of every day!Wow if I were God and wanted to tell people something,I know who I'd be using!!!Jesus did say his true followers would be hated and that the good news would be preached in all the inhabited Earth,I have never seen so much hatred and lies aimed at any other group,the only group preaching the good news globally! If JW are the apostates who is doing Gods preaching work!?no one!
grazv6 3 weeks ago 2
@grazv6 absolutely!! and the best evidence that everything is happening like Jesus warned in the bible.
CourageLight 3 weeks ago
@grazv61that has always been my question and it never gets answered. I always ask them to point out for me the present day disciples obeying the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20, I never get a straight answer and if they name someone I always say "why havent they knocked on my door, why havent they approached me on the street" and I get no answer.
Justice4vr 3 weeks ago
Another hater of the truth. Jesus warned of these apostates.
ruffaz24 1 month ago
The KING JAMES VERSION is a version not a TRANSLATION and there r MANY, like the septuagint version, the Aramaic targums, the Syriac peshitta Version,AQUILA'S version and Latian Vulgate,PENTATEUCH
31devildestroyer 2 months ago
We offer prayers THROUGH Jesus, so we are asking in his name-he is the 'Amen'.At the end of prayer say, "through Jesus Christ, Amen". We research ALOT more than other religions, and we gain accuracy. REFER to: John 14:6,13-26= Father is to be glorified in connection with the Son=1 Timothy 2:5,6:13,Galatians 3:19, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Ephesians 5:20,Phillipians 1:11,2:5-11, Hebrews 8:6,9:15,24,12:24. Jesus and disciples pray to the Father=Matthew 6:9,10,11:25,14:23,15:36,26:26,Luke22:17,John 11:41
eternityandforever 2 months ago
The Watchtower Society does an EXCELLENT job of restoring true meaning to the bible. Biased translators who believed in the 'Trinity' doctrine changed the bible hundreds of years ago to suit their end. NOW, Jehovah God is correcting their errors, and JW's are his servant on earth today. This is the time of the end of all wickedness, and truth is to be restored=Daniel 12:4. Jesus fortold that he would have a 'faithful slave' lead his people and make disciples=Matthew 24:14, 28:19,20, 24:45-47 :D
eternityandforever 2 months ago
A Dangerous cult founded by C T Russell a conman of the highest and continued by Judge Rutherford and dangerous greedy controlling Conman and his very big house. Both were flim flam men who fleeced millions
malkaraatgw1 3 months ago
NwSER ME this JWs In this verse Jesus is saying no one is good only God is Good.
Matt 19:16-17
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
You have two options.
1 Jesus is bad and has sin in him. Or option 2.
2 Jesus is God.
Only God is Good????????
If you picked option 1 then Jesus death cant save you.
mofo34736 5 months ago
@mofo34736 you are dumb no matter which site you post this on. You can copy and paste this all over youtube, it wont make it make any sense. Its still stupid. Theres always option 3.
Didnt Jesus say, "WHY are you calling me good, there is but ONE who is good...and where is this ONE who is good?? He is in heaven. Where was Jesus?? lets just say, NOT in heaven. Option 1. Jesus is saying Im not good, only God is good. 2. Im not good, only God is good and MOFO is a dumbass. 3. MOFO is a dumbass
HolyRollerSpirit1 4 months ago
@mofo34736 Jesus also told him "to enter life" (to be SAVED) what must you do?? KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS! ....say what? But, Paul said they were a curse, they were abolished, they were worthless and only showed you that you sucked. Paul said GRACE saved us, not the Law. But, wait, Jesus also said not one jot or tittle would change from the law until HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED!. Hey, look, its still here.
HolyRollerSpirit1 4 months ago
@HolyRollerSpirit1 Ok 1 more time The LAWS or Commandment.
where made to Bring us to Jesus AND THE NEW GOSPEL
(Gal 3:24)
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER a tutor(LAW).
Rom 3:20
20 Therefore by the DEEDS of the LAW no FLESH will be JUSTIFIED in His sight, FOR BY THE LAW is the knowledge of SIN.
THIS MEANS THAT THE LAW IS A MIRROR IT SHOW YOU THAT ALL YOU DO IS SIN 24/7.
mofo34736 4 months ago
there is another scripture where in the real bible it says that God is within you, but in the JW bible its changed to read God is in union with you... my son ended up pointing this one out to me, I cant believe how many passages of the real bible has been changed it just show why they need you to read only their bible. Oh yes they will say you can read your own bible, but just wait till you start becoming a member it will all change you will be doing what the Org says for you do do.
mygoodies411 5 months ago
Jehovah's Witnesses proclaim God's name-Matthew 6:9,10. We proclaim His kingdom is coming to bring true peace to the world. JW's follow early disciples.Jesus said pray to His Father,OUR Father-Matthew 6:9,10. He always prayed to his God. YES, Jesus has a God, he said so repeatedly. Can Jesus be God and then pray to himself? READ Matthew 11:25,14:19,15:36,26:26; Mark 1:35,9:29; Luke 10:21,11:1,22:32; John 6:11,23,13:3,14:1,20:17,31
eternityandforever 5 months ago
@eternityandforever so do christians pray to THE FATHER..learn the trinity..I think are still confused..
rhdtv2002 5 months ago
Comment removed
eternityandforever 2 months ago
@rhdtv2002 Pray THROUGH Jesus, asking in his name...At the end of prayer say, "through Jesus Christ, "Amen". Jehovah's Witnesses research ALOT more than other religions, and gain accuracy. REFER to: John 14:6,13-26= Father is to be glorified in connection with the Son=1 Timothy 2:5,6:13,Galatians 3:19, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Ephesians 5:20, Phillipians 1:11,2:5-11, Hebrews 8:6, 9:15,24,12:24. Jesus and disciples pray to the Father, Jehovah=Matthew 6:9,10,11:25,14:23,15:36,26:26,Luke22:17,John 11:41
eternityandforever 2 months ago
yeah but they keep the bible prettymuch perfect for our modern english language, look at pretty much every other religionthe removed alot more from the bible including gods name
dinokittenable 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Jesus taught his followers to go from house to house. He wants more people to become disciples. Jehovah's Witness are following Jesus our Lord. Read Acts 5:42, "...from house to house they continued ..declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus." Acts14:21,"...making quite a few disciples,..." Acts 20:20-"...teaching you publicly and from house to house." Jesus commands his disciples to make more disciples. READ Matthew 28:19,20-"Go therefore and make disciples of people..."
eternityandforever 9 months ago
I'm not a jw but I do research the crimes of other religions and doctrines and I find that the sins of other religions make jw's look like saints...as for Jesus he is the firstborn he is the son of the father...what. Makes a father a father ? Or what does firstborn mean ? What does mean to be a son?
Fhomie 9 months ago
By the way king James left out " me" as well
Let's talk about catholics who was part of hitlers army involved in the slave trade or how they wiped out the native people of north america casting the first stone are we
Fhomie 9 months ago
Wow
Fhomie 9 months ago
Good message..I hope many jws watch this and realize that Jesus taught the greatest in heaven is a servant, not one who strives for a higher position in heaven.. That is what satan did and that is why he got thrown out.. The scriptures tell us to not follow the doctrine of devils.. I hope the jw's pay attention and repent and turn to Jesus Christ for the truth,, Since Jesus said,, I am the way, the truth, and the life...
Leewoodseven 9 months ago
@Leewoodseven nice...
HawkeyeDigitalFilms 9 months ago
The most important thing here is that Jehovah's Witnesses more trust to their New World Translation than the Bible in its Original Languages, so I ask to Jehovah's Witnesses: "If God couldn't keep His original word, so where from you have translated your New World Translation. Really it's a great nonsense to trust to your NWT". But I read the Bible only in its Original Languages, I don't trust to any translation at all. Because there never can be an exact translation at all. Thank You.
776AD 10 months ago
The New World Translation is just as accurate as any other bible. 2 Tim 3:16-17 I had one for a while and I regret throwing it out. I can prove Jesus is Lord with a NWT just as easily as NKJV or NIV Mathew 28:19 Rev 1:8 WHen did God die? Gen 1:26,27 Let us make man in our image. JW confuse issues with arguements about words. Jesus died for our sins. this is important.
suggesttwo 11 months ago
Charles Francis Potter: In "the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures...the anonymous translators have certainly rendered the best manuscript texts...with scholarly ability and acumen."
-The Faith Men Live By
queruvimwj 1 year ago
Samuel Haas: "This work indicates a great deal of effort and thought as well as considerable scholarship."
-Bible Scholar in "Journal of Biblical Literature"
queruvimwj 1 year ago
S. Maclean Gilmore: "The New Testament edition was made by a committee...that possessed an unusual competence in Greek."
-Andover Newton Quarterly
queruvimwj 1 year ago
Jason BeDuhn: "While it is difficult to quantify this sort of analysis, it can be said the NW[T] emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared."
-Greek Scholar in his book: "Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament"
queruvimwj 1 year ago
If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"?
What kind of confidence can anyone have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence? This represents about 53% of the time they have existed!
Keep up the good work crosscheck!!
SuperOZTV 1 year ago
Actually, IF you were a REAL Christian then..
YOU WOULD EXPECT TO BE CALLED A CULT.
Goes with the TERRITORY.
The World hates TRUE CHRISTIANS and WE are HATED MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION.
So I THANK YOU for CONFORMING THAT !!!
"...for truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against." Acts 28
That is US and YOU are THEM !
I suppose you also believe that PHALLIC SYMBOL stands for Christ, do you?
customanalogue 1 year ago
LOL!
If John 14:14 and those others are examples of corruption, there is much to worry about.
Strange that they read only NWT and then ignore HEAPS of others tranlations where other translator take a similar stance. But ah, those translators are not Jehovah's Witnesses.
THAT says it all !!!
customanalogue 1 year ago
jw objects
ExJWPedo 1 year ago
King James .John 14; 14 If ye ask any thing in my name , I will do it.
New world translation; John 14;14 . If you ask anything in my name I will do it. Sorry there is no ME in either . so thats kinda spoilt your Witness bashing party for the moment hasn,t it .
peterm3964 1 year ago
The JWs are a cult, and they have removed the diety of Christ from their bible, try to leave the JWs...see how they love you then... cult.
4smartypants 1 year ago
@4smartypants
Just because they say that Jesus is the "SON of God" does not entitle you to label them a cult.
That is rather arrogant and shows an air of smugness & not much humility.
So you have adopted a SUITABLE MONIKER for yourself. Congratulations for living up to it. LOL
Are JEWS also a cult?
Oh, you can't say THAT!!!
Oh no, that would make you anti-Semitic and a racist.
But it is OK to say that about JWs? There is a word for that DOUBLE standards. Maybe even the "H" word?
customanalogue 1 year ago
Comment removed
sweetmikser 1 year ago
@4smartypants all religions are fucking cults.
lockwoodisafaggot 1 year ago
Man, the NWT is NOT the only translation that has John 14:14 that way. I teach hebrew and Greek in brazil and my opinion is that JWs Translation is accurate. Not perfect but the most accurate Bible Translation I know here in Brazil.
queruvimwj 1 year ago
the NWT is NOT the only translation that has John 14:14 that way. Your ignorance (and bias) show up clearly when you barf up this example. That's NOT a "corruption" but simply a rendering using better manuscript evidence, that other Versions, like New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible, Berkeley, New Berkeley, etc. And they're all pro-Trinitarian co-equality Bibles. And THEY left the word "Me" out of John 14:14 too. And the other Versions that have "Me" there have a footnote saying "Mss omit 'Me'".
sweetmuzix 1 year ago
@sweetmuzix I have another video about the NWT where I address that very objection, it's called "Re: Re: More corruption in the NWT."
21crosscheck21 1 year ago 3
@21crosscheck21 for some reason the comments are somehow locked on your other video.......not sure what that's about. Anyway, I was trying to respond to your laughable hypocrisy about "doing homework"....but couldn't cuz the comment thing is frozen or something.....Anyway, what I was gonna say was that you're funny for saying "do homework" when YOU were the one who did NOT do homework but were SLOPPY about John 14:14, in thinking wrongly that only the NWT renders it without the word "Me"....
sweetmuzix 1 year ago
Comment removed
sweetmuzix 1 year ago
@21crosscheck21 ....YOU were the one who even admitted that you did NOT do research. LOL.. I was thinking the same exact thing about YOU, yesterday, with the same exact word. I was like "this drone did not do his homework, on John 14:14." Then when confronted with your sloppy error, and that it's because of WEAK MSS SUPPORT, and that other Versions (not just the NWT) also leave out "Me", you say it doesn't matter, "parallel is wrong" arf arf, or jump on "but they put Jehovah in the NT."
sweetmuzix 1 year ago
@sweetmuzix There is a video response posted to this that answers all your objections.
And when and where did I supposedly admit that I didn't do research??? Surely you can back up that ridiculous claim with evidence.
21crosscheck21 1 year ago
@sweetmuzix leaving out words to the bible does matter..........no matter the translation. May God grant the ones who ask for wisdom receive it, and give grace to those who seek him.
etcharrison 1 year ago
@21crosscheck21 and one other point I wanted to make about your other sloppy mistake about the "Westcott and Hort" and the NWT, is that you are wrong in thinking that the NWT went ONLY by the W&H text... THAT WAS JUST ONE OF THEM THEY USED, KID.... One of the main ones, but NOT the only one. (Captain's FACE-PALM) And you're just assuming that the "oldest and best" have "Me." If that's the case, then why does the NEB Version NOT have it in there? A pro-trinity Version? LOL.... FAIL....
sweetmuzix 1 year ago
@21crosscheck21 What bible do you use?? Why do you HATE the Jehova's Witness with such vigor to read every passage in "their Bible" to try and find something you can attack to PROVE you MORE? Or, did someone else do it and you just jumped on board and parrotted their disparaging work trying to make it your own? Many Bibles don;t have "me" in that verse. So, therefore I have set you straight OR, therefore, now I have set you straight. Did that change my meaning???
zatoilluminati 11 months ago 5
@sweetmuzix Quick question: who translated the NWT?
Surely must have been a great translator, because whoever did this translation, made some breakthrough translations like John 1:1, that sounds exactly the same as spiritist's Johannes Greber New Testament translation. however no Linguistic Doctor, or Hebrew, Greek language expert has ever come out and said I translated this. Which is why NWT has no value at all, a biased version made by the governing body of the WT is obviously evil. WAKE UP!
PiedraParlante 1 year ago
@sweetmuzix
Don't waist your time, I've had the pleasure of debating with this person in other instances and he proved to be completely dishonest in his dealings with others. Anyone who lies or cheats to gain the upper hand in discussions of the bible are not worthy of addressing.
To which I'd add, apostates are all one in the same. Don't waist your time.
SmalltimR 8 months ago
@SmalltimR Not sure why you would say that my friend.... can you back that up with facts? And BTW... I was never a JW so not an apostate..
21crosscheck21 8 months ago
@SmalltimR I have never seen this video, but I have seen John 14:14 in the Watchtower Organization's large, brown 1984 version of the Bible, & their footnote to this scripture clearly says that it should be understood as reading, "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." Yes, Jesus made it clear that we could talk to Him...& why not? Did not Jehovah God point all man to His Son??
Jehovah God's Plan of Salvation is through His Son, Jesus, & we are to be witnesses of Him (Acts 1:8)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Couple of points:
On John 14:14, if in fact Jesus would have said they could ask "him" personally, that he would have quoted it as "you can ask *me anything in my name?
Which really doesn't seem very coherent when you think about it does it?
But what if... we couple this with the words that no person could come to the Father without going through the son first? Wouldn't that make more sense? AKA. through Christ as in asking is his name.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
On the second point(Acts 1:8) I would simply point-out that there is more to this scripture than simply bearing witness to Jesus. And we can see this when we consider the entire body of scripture which states that they(those) will receive power in holy spirit descends upon them and they they will be witnesses of Jesus in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth.
To which I would ask... what does this mean?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I don't like to participate in the Watchtower's style of "circular reasoning" which takes what they can "use" from God's Word to then use "reasoning" to "make it say" what it really does not say.
I have a radical idea...what if we could just let God's Word speak for itself?? Or here's an even more radical proposal: What if we were to just believe that God's Word already SAYS what it "means," & that we don't need an ORGANIZATION to explain it to us?? Can you say, "Holy Spirit"??
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Don't you think God's word has been speaking for itself all along?
And what is the state of things?
Clearly that isn't it.
Additionally... God's word doesn't always mean what it means either(just look).
The bible is filled with terms that have ulterior meanings.
And for Holy Spirit, well I'm all for that too, but have you ever investigated things in the broader sense?
I have(still am in fact) and guess what? Everyone believes they have the truth and are led by Holy spirit!
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR 1John 2:26-27 reads, "These things I write you about those who trying to mislead you.
"And as for you, the anointing that you received from Him remains in you, AND YOU DO NOT NEED ANYONE TO BE TEACHING YOU, but, as the anointing from Him is teaching you about all things, & is true, & is no lie, & just as it has taught you, remain in (union with) Him."
John 1:7 "If we are walking in the light as He Himself is in the light...the blood of Jesus...cleanses us from all sin." (NWT)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: takes what they can "use" from God's Word to then use "reasoning" to "make it say" what it really does not say.
Amen to that!
Now tell that to those claiming God should be worshiped as a triad with Jesus and the Holy spirit and those claiming Jesus is God!
And tell me now... what group of people today follow Christ(for real)?
Because as far as I can see, the JW's seem to be the only ones trying.
But there is another group, please tell me who they are. I too want to know!
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Yes, the JWs are certainly & sincerely "trying" to follow Christ, but they are really following & serving the Watchtower; it's just a fact. Trying to "follow Christ" without "coming to Christ," or without understanding that one must "come to Christ" & humbly accept the benefits of His sacrifice that would cover all of their sins, & that would wash them clean in the sight of God, & that would then allow God to actually adopt them through Holy Spirit is just not the same thing at all!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
On the issue of coming to Christ, do JW's get baptized in His name?
And do they not pray in His name as well(every prayer in fact)?
And do they not honor His sacrifice & salvation?
And what are we to make of the literature and studies committed to Jesus?
And finally are these ones not imitators of Him just as He commanded?
You've said alot in four comments, though none of it seems very conducive.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR 1) Though followers of the Watchtower get "baptized in Christ's name," it's not the same thing as FOLLOWING HIM as their Shepherd, in fact if any JW comes to understand that their standing before God has everything to do with following Christ, & NOTHING to do with following the organization, & if they also become a Christian by obeying Christ, they will be DISFELLOWSHIPPED as an "apostate" & it was the same way back in the days of Jesus' ministry; His own people screamed for His death
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... 2) Praying in the name of Jesus is (again) not the same thing as COMING to Christ, or the same thing as recognizing that only in HIM do we have forgiveness of our sinful state, nor is it the same as accepting that we need His blood to cover our sins, & that following Jesus as our Shepherd is God's plan; that in coming to Christ, we are obeying God!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... 3) Followers of the Watchtower truly & sincerely believe that they are honoring Christ & His sacrifice...but they do not know that their "understanding" of Christ & of who He is, & what His willing sacrifice really means for all of mankind is based on deception...I am not trying to upset you, but the Watchtower has "preached a different Jesus" than who He really is...
"For if someone comes & preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached..." see 2Cor 11:3-4
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Okay, so assuming I'm trying to piece all this together(from the root).
There are a few questions that come out from what you've written to date.
1. What does coming to Jesus mean?
2. What do followers of Christ really do?
And I ask you think as I see these two terms as a main theme to your criticism(properly) though I have not yet found the meaning of both terms.
BTW. thanks for taking the time to address my questions.
And... I take no offense to JW criticisms.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR What Christ's followers "really do" is to first COME TO CHRIST, & to then simply allow the Holy Spirit to direct them in all things.
We are each completely different from each other, & we are not here to be "carbon copies" of any "blue print," but as individuals, we are to follow God through following Christ, & submit to the Holy Spirit which leads us & which helps us to heal & to grow & be all that God meant for us to be, & follow the path of Christ without beating ourselves up!!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... 3) Followers of the Watchtower believe they "honor" Jesus' sacrifice in their somber observance of His death at the Memorial held each year, yet they pass up the very emblems which Christ said that we, as followers of Him...as HIS SHEEP...were to partake of; yes, they "pass up" everything that Jesus Christ's death as the perfect sacrificial Lamb of God means for all of us in favor of believing & following "man"; an ORGANIZATION of man. (Please John chapter 6)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... "...life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you...This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in Him whom that One sent forth...Jesus said to them: 'I am the bread of life. HE THAT COMES TO ME will not get hungry at all...THE ONE THAT COMES TO ME I will by no means drive away...
"No man can COME TO ME unless the Father, who sent Me, draws him...He that believes in Me HAS everlasting life." NWT See Jesus' own words at John 6: 27,35,37,44,47...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... 4) The Watchtower has had much "literature" & many "studies" on the person of Jesus, but as the scriptures clearly show when compared to these very studies & pieces of literature, they are not in agreement with what God's Word tells us...
Jesus IS "The Word of God"; He is not a separate, "little god," but "The Word of God." (John 1:1, 14; Rev 19:13).
Jesus is not a separate "created" being, but is "the image of the invisible God..." Col. 1:15; 2:9
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
On the issue of Jesus being the Word and a little God, there is a discrepancy under the terms you proposed earlier (taking the bible literally). And that where the theme from bible surrounding Jesus was built-up on Jesus as a subordinate to His Father(taking things literally). And by that, I mean "the Son", and
"prayed to His Father" whom Jesus claimed to be His God as well. And more importantly where He also where he himself declared that the Father was greater than himself.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR The WT has long confused many as to who Jesus really IS...if JWs truly understood, if they knew the REAL "truth," they would be leaving in droves...please don't get angry. Let's see if we can look at this issue calmly...
Jesus is THE WORD of God. Jesus was "brought forth" from the person of God; picture God "bringing forth from the person of Himself an "expression of Himself"; His Word, in the person of Jesus. "From God I came forth." John 8:42 See John 1:14; Rev 19:13
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... Jesus is not a separate, "little god," but is God's only begotten Son. You "create a chair," you beget, or "bring forth," your child.
All through Isaiah 43 to the end of the book you will find many scriptures where God makes it abundantly clear that THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. (Also see John 17:3)
Jesus was "lessor" than God when He "became flesh" though within Him dwelt the divinity of God (Col 1:19; 2:9)
There is only ONE "true" God. Jesus is OF God
1955annemarie 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@1955annemarie
RE: . You "create a chair," you beget, or "bring forth," your child.
I don't see this changing anything.
RE: God makes it abundantly clear that THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.
That's true, though the scriptures make it clear that there are other gods as well. And Jesus(speaking to the Pharisees), reminded them of this when he addressed the charge that He made himself out to be God.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
On the issue of Jesus and the one true God, Paul spoke of Jesus and God as being distinctly separate when he stated that there was but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 8:6
Similarly, prior to being stoned, Stephen gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at His right hand(Acts 7:55)
In Rev 4:8 to 5:7, God is seated on His throne, but Jesus isn't. He has to approach God and take a scroll from His right hand...
Hmmm
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR All I can say is that it is my understanding in reading the scriptures that Jesus is OF God; that He is OF God; that from God He came forth, (John 8:42; John 16: 27-29); that He is God's Word (John 1:1, 14; Rev 19:13), & that being that He is OF God, His Word, "brought forth" from the person of God, He is thus not "lower than," even though as a separate being brought forth from the person of God, He serves God's purpose.
We cannot assume that Scripture means anything different...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
RE: Jesus is of God, from God and God's word...
I'd agree, however given the emphasis on Jesus' subordination to His Father, I really don't see how we can circumvent this. ie.Jesus claimed the Father was greater than Him(His God). A mindset that carried through past His resurrection(see: Mary and brethren John 14:28). And Paul made the same distinctions(Father and Jesus) in 1 Cor 8:6/3:21,23. And so I would ask what are to make of such scriptures?
Clearly we cannot simply dismiss them.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR At the point of John 14:28, Jesus was still in "a slave's form"; still in subjection to God the Father as a perfect human, & I do not see Jesus' position of being OF God, or as being, "The Word of God," denied.
Revelation 19:13 clearly identifies Jesus as the WORD of God, which compliments John 1:1 & John 1:14.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
RE: Jesus is of God, from God and God's word(2)...
When you say that you've based understanding on the scriptures, I would ask if you've considered this understanding the possibility that this understanding is either incomplete or based on partial scriptures?
At which point I would ask you if you can explain why anyone would choose an incomplete interpretation over that of a complete one?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I only explain what the scriptures clearly say to the best of my ability; I explain my understanding as clearly as I am able, & a share those scriptures which support (in my understanding) this...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
RE: cannot assume He is in any way less than God...
Earlier, I shared a references where Jesus showed the Pharasees that other gods existed under His Father. Additionally, I also posted numerous bible passages explicitly presenting Jesus as a subordinate to His Father on earth and in heaven(prior too, and following his coming to earth). And though I can see why you might present Jesus as the One true God, I honestly don't know how we could ever circumvent this outstanding information.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
RE: Jesus already existed IN the time period that we humans understand as the beginning.
I agree here also.
However, since the Father has no beginning and no end, such terms would be logically inappropriate to the terms for Him. However when in insert Jesus(as a finite being) it all makes perfect sense. And to help support this, the bible speaks of Jesus being by His Fathers side during and after the creation(See: Let US create...) and so there is very strong evidence for this concept.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR If you had ALWAYS existed, & at some point you were able to "bring forth" from the person of yourself an expression of YOU...your WORD...into a being separate from yourself, you would still be able to attribute YOUR qualities to the separate expression of YOU.
That is the best way I can think of to express it...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
RE: Jesus was created...
This is rather interesting actually. When I myself read Jesus being described as the first-born of all creation in Colossians, I considered that to be an open and shut case. However, to my surprise, I encountered most arguments toward this alone than any other passage in the bible. To which I considered all to be outright embarrassing. And the reason for this is the same reasoning you yourself mentioned where religions/organizations twist scriptures to their own needs.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Yes, I remember that scripture being used to "show me" that Christ was a created being, but as there is no scripture that actually SAYS that Jesus was a "created being," or that He is, or ever was, an ANGEL, (see Hebrew chapter 1), and as "first-born" back then was more used as a TITLE, which projected due AUTHORITY, (which in the case of Jesus fits), the TITLE, "Firstborn," & in the case of our Lord, is not a "description."
Colossians 1:15-16 makes this point clear to me...KJV
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Firstborn occurrences fr. LXX
27 First in group: Gen 4:4; 25:13; Ex 11:5; 13:13,15;22:28;34:19,19;34:20,20; Num 3:40,41,41;3:45,46,50;8:16;18:15,15; Deut 12:6,17;14:23;15:19; Neh 10:37,37; Ezek 44:30.
42 Son`of the group of sons: Gen 49:3; Ex 4:22; 4:23; 6:14;11:5; Num 1:20; 18:17,17,17;26:5; Deut 21:15,16,17; 33:17;Judg 8:20;2 Sam 3:2; 2 Sam 13:21; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chr 1:29; 2:3,13; 2:25,25,27,42,50; 3:1,15; 4:4; 5:1,3; 8:1,30,38,39; 9:5,31,36,44; 26:2; Psalm 134:8; Mica 6:7; Jer 38:9
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I don't want to look up all of those scriptures...I have to go somewhere pretty soon...but could you pick one or two & paraphrase these if you don't want to quote them, & then point out the point you are making?
I don't believe that truth contradicts truth in any way, & that if truth ever DOES appear to contradict truth, that there something that we are missing, or there is a piece of the "puzzle" that is missing.
We know that many ancient writings were not included in the Bible...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Sorry, that was a last post prior to signing-off.
And I'll admit, it is rather RAW in nature. And so here's a summary of why I posted it.
The natural reading of the bible is that Jesus was God's first creature, the firstborn of all creation. There is nothing in the text that warrants the redefinition of "firstborn" and "creation" since 1:17 says that Jesus was *before all things, clearly a reference to time in the context.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
RE: Firstborn (continued)...
However, here we have no other example of genitive function with reference to the term firstborn. Therefore the meaning is intrinsically partitive. And therefore, nothing in the context challenges the concept of Jesus being mediated in creation. And those who claim or argue this are either mislead into thinking this or sorely mistaken.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I am not even going to pretend that I understand what you are saying, here, though I am certain that it is a very intelligent statement of what you are saying...
I am getting the "jist" of what (I THINK) you are saying: That you believe that Jesus is a CREATED being...is that right? If so, we simply disagree, but I don't worry about it.
Truth is still truth, no matter what we understand, & it will all be okay because whatever we need to really know will be made known...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
If I had to summarize it, I would borrow your own words(which I liked btw) and state; that I believe what the bible says and not what people say. Therefore, what you quoted earlier(which I don't believe to be your own interpretation) is the product of men and not the bible. Therefore(in some indirect way), it seems as though you yourself have fallen prey to the terms posted earlier. ie. the Bible is being used to mean something it is not.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR referring to your words that you "don't believe to be my own interpretation," what, exactly, where you referring to? I am an intellectual person, & things have to make sense to me, or it will drive me nuts until they do, & it was very important to me to understand what I had always believed was a "PAGAN" concept: The Trinity.
It took me a lot of prayer, Bible reading, & speaking with spiritually mature persons before it "clicked" with me. I have expressed my own understanding.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: don't believe to be my own interpretation...
What I meant to say, is that the reasoning(scriptural and external) were not your own arguments.
And as much as popular as these are, they have been around for a long as long as I can remember.
Having said that, I've always found the alternative reasoning of Col. 1:15 to be so poor, that it could only called insulting for all reading the scriptures. Which is a consequence twisting things into something they are not. see: 1:17
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Though I have sought help in understanding Biblical Truth, MY "understanding" is MINE. I do share what I have learned, so I ask you to please specify which interpretation or arguments that you feel are not mine...
I do not see any problem with Col 1:15; to what are you referring? Verse 17 seems to be in complete agreement with the entire picture of Jesus being OF God, FROM God; His Word.
"From God I came forth." John 8:42 Full divinity is in Christ! Col 2:9; John 1:1; Rev 19:13
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
I think it's important to point-out that the questions was never that of your own understanding, but rather, the existential reasoning that follows the bibles declaration of Jesus being the firstborn of creation. Which has been in circulation long before you or I ever came into being(see). And of course, whether or not one accepts such arguments as truth is entirely person dependent.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Existential reasoning... (part 2)
However... I have to say... that appealing to such arguments when it comes to bible reasoning does come in controversy with the initial terms you presented at the beginning of our conversation(religion and existential bible reasoning). So in effect, what we've end-up with, is substitution for a criticism which was once reserved for the WTS onto another group or body.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Col 1:15
The biggest issue I have the entire firstborn & creation reformulation is that it contrasts very poorly with the context of the passage in question. And that is to say that the entire scripture associate with the declaration rather robust toward the concept of first being first(numerically) in a group of events(order) over that of an ulterior expression.
To which I would say... makes for a very poor argument insofar as bible reformulation goes. (continued...)
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Col 1:15 (2)...
ie, The Son is the image of the invisible God, the *firstborn "over all creation"
Here we have two major components.
1. the term *firstborn, which by itself could render a few meanings.
2. we have the associated context "over all creation" to accompany the major term.
And so, here we have a complete expression. 1. sets the precedence while 2 substantiates the use.
To which I would ask... do we even need to appeal to the remainder of the text?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Col 1:15 (3)...
And so already, we have little wiggle room to appeal to alternate renderings from the term firstborn. However in the event that one should persist, the account goes-on to provide-us additional reinforcements.
1. For "in him" all things were created: all things have been created through him and for him.
2. He is *before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Here again, the scriptures reinforce the major term by order of events.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Jesus being OF God, FROM God; His Word.
I don't think any of this challenges this fact.
However... for what it's worth, I'm not sure that being OF God, God breathed or made in God's image changes anything at this stage. I mean... in all fairness, when we considering everything in existence is in effect from God, I really don't see that offering much on the issue at this stage.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Full divinity...
I often read of such terms within the Trinity Doctrine.
And in a few particular cases, I've had people appeal to the Divinity of Christ under the threat of being a creation under God(the Father). However, I honestly don't think this does anything to challenge the claim under the terms of the arrangement as God's literal son. To which I'd ask; why would anyone believe Jesus as God's literal son would impact His divinity? (see: ELOHIM)
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Corrections...
... though it is missing the truth that would come as a great tragedy for us today!
...I can't help but feel just that.
*** Sorry, was rushed and left several typo's ***
SmalltimR 7 months ago
RE: Jesus was created(2)...
In continuing... the previous references correlate with Proverbs which speaks of Yahweh who creating a being as a first-fruit of the oldest of his works. Prior to the mountains, hills and prior to crafting the earth and even the first elements of the world. - Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26.
To which most scholars agree likely described Jesus prior to His coming to earth.
And so the idea of Jesus always existing really doesn't seem harmoneous with the bible.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I like Proverbs chapter 8!! It speaks of God's attributes...both wisdom & also of Jesus at the same time, it seems, though I am not rereading it now...I have to leave soon.
You seem to be very well educated...perhaps you could chat with a Biblical Scholar; I must be way below your level of Scriptural understanding, but I do appreciate your points!! You're very smart, but though I am not as smart as you, I have peace, so I am content with what I read in God's Word... (smile)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Content with God's word...
TBH. I've never seen or spoken with a bible scholar in all of my days of research(over 25 now). Though I know the term gets thrown around severely in these corners(ie. Scholars agree etc etc). Though what most people don't realize is that Jesus did not speak highly of "Bible Scholars" and "Apologetic" (did you know that?). In fact, he said that the truth would not come to them, but that it would come to the mouth of the babes seeking the truth.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR
RE: Content with God's word(2)...
I would ask the following...
What IF our understanding was either influenced or misdirected by the beliefs of others(religion ect)?
And to that, I would borrow a statement from W.L Craig in a 2010 convention which stated that there is no wrong in seeking the truth, though missing the truth that would come as a great tragedy for us today!
And when I hear of people eliminating either Jesus' or His Father from the bible, I can't be feel just that.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Continuing Jesus/God/True God...
Post-resurrection, Jesus is portrayed as being alongside and compared with God, as a separate being in heaven, in a different category, and rank(See: Philippians 2:11)
Additionally, it seems as though Jesus would continue to be a separate from God in heaven also. 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28 speaks of the end of wickedness, at which point, Jesus would hand over the kingdom to His Father, and be subjected to the One who subjected everything to him.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Here are a few more to consider;
After His death, Jesus appeared to Saul(Paul) and spoke of the God which made the world and all that was in it. He went on to say that this God, the *only true God, would judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by the one whom He appointed, and resurrected from the dead(Acts 17:24, 31).
Here Paul described Jesus as being lesser than God and who was *restored by God to a life in heaven.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Again, though Jesus is a separate being, He is still OF God, having been "brought forth" from the person of God; God's Word, we cannot, therefore, assume that He is in any way "less than" God, because He is God...
There is only ONE TRUE GOD according to the Bible. (See Isaiah ch. 43-56) Christians understand that this ONE TRUE GOD expresses Himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit. None is "less than" God because they are all a part of God; they ARE God.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... Jesus voluntarily "emptied Himself" & took on a "slave's form" in order to fulfill His role as a perfect, innocent, & blameless sacrificial Lamb of God "that takes away the sins of the world!" John 1:29, 36, but before He allowed Himself to be sacrificed, Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law for all of mankind, & He preached the message of salvation to God's People, The Israelites, who rejected Him (as many claiming to be "God's People" do today, & it's a shame!).
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
So now, were admitting Jesus was created?
I'm starting to sense some controversy based on an earlier comment where Christ was either uncreated and/or equal too or God don't you think? And more importantly... it seems contradictory to the claim that the bible is straightforward. Or at least... in plain English(as highlighted in my previous comment). However, none of this changes the initial issue of Jesus announcing himself as a subordinate to His Father.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I don't wish to argue. I believe in God's Word. I believe what God's Word says, & what it teaches.
The Watchtower has amassed hundreds of thousands of books & magazines & pamphlets explaining what God's Word "means," but God's Word does not need any man to explain what He has already said...
Though God's People want to understand more clearly what the Bible says, that does not include "man's" changing interpretation of it...later discarding it as "Old Light." God does not change
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
I don't think anyone's arguing do you?
Additionally, assuming someone proposed a viewpoint from the bible and then someone were to point-out discrepancies with said proposals, then wouldn't that be an appropriate measure?
For example; you proposed several ideas based on bible scripture(and that's great) however, having read bibles, I immediately picked-up in several issues following these proposals. And so I think its important to point those out don't you?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I'm not saying anyone is arguing with me; I am just saying that I do not want to argue with anyone. Followers of the Watchtower are taught to believe certain things, & all I want to do is to point them to what God's Word says & to answer any question to the best of my puny ability.
I am not trying to tell anyone to do anything, but rather to just be willing to look at what God's Word so clearly says, & to see it with their own eyes. That's all.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
First off, let me level with you here.
I am not a JW. Nor have I ever been one.
However, I had done a great deal of research on their beliefs and doctrines thanks to people like crosscheck21. Though prior to that, I had no real interest in that sect as a whole.
Having said that, I've observed a prominent self approving behavior from people claiming to serve God(or Jesus whatever) in the sense that everyone believes they are right(walking in the truth).
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Everyone believes they are right(2):
And I'm not trying to stir the pot. I simply want to point-out that this is very much a reality in cases such as these. BUT... I must say, that if we are basing our understanding on the scriptures(Holy Bible) then, many of your claims and observations with regards to being saved end-up being contradictory to the bible. And therefore, I would ask... why you would believe that your own beliefs are sound under such circumstances?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I only have the Bible, which I personally do believe to be God's Word, & I choose to acknowledge what it says, & I choose to believe what it says.
If the Bible is wrong, I am trusting that God will make it known in His good time. If I am wrong in my understanding, I am trusting that as His Word promises that we shall be led & taught by the Holy Spirit, I trust in that to set me straight in God's own time.
I do not base any of my beliefs on any "doctrine of man."
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Under such circumstances(2);
And here is my personal criticism of this phenomenon. Given that everyone claims to be saved, and everyone must indulge or appeal to self-righteousness to defend their own faith, then how could one ever conclude who's right and who's wrong?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR You make SUCH a great point!!! So much of "man's religion" is based upon "appearances," & the judgment of others as to whether another is "right" with God, or "wrong" with God.
Coming to Christ & accepting the Blood of His sacrifice as "enough" to cover over our sins, we are promised in the scriptures that we are then adopted by God as His child, & Jesus promised that then the Holy Spirit of Jesus & God will come into us & mingles with our own spirit so that now we are His!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... Once a person has come to Christ, per God's arrangement, & once we have the Holy Spirit within us, it's a "done deal." It is entirely a personal thing. The one who's had this experience understands this, though, if they personally still hold beliefs in their mind that this wasn't "real," they may have a harder time with it, but they can't deny that they felt SOMETHING.
One who accepts God's Plan of Salvation is unique, but the blessing are the same!!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Who's right and who's wrong;
ie. Mary claims salvation through Christ and goes-on explaining her faith by means of the scriptures.
But there's an issue...
If/when someone shows Mary that her beliefs stand in contradiction to the scriptures, she claims that the Holy Spirit is guiding her(right?). However... other groups(sects) appeal to the exact same reasoning with completely opposing beliefs. And so what are bystanders to make of this?
This is a legitimate question.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Yes, you certainly do ask "a legitimate question, but this entire thing is not about MAN, or about what anyone ELSE thinks or believes!! It is about each one of us, as individuals, to LOOK & to SEE FOR THEMSELVES what God's Word really says, & to decide FOR THEMSELVES what they want to do with the information that is available to them...
Jesus didn't die to give us religion; He died to give us a RELATIONSHIP with Him & with our heavenly Father, & truly what a gift that is!! (smile)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Legitimate question:
Assuming I was an uninvolved by-stander, and you proposed your faith to me(one of many), then how could I discern which faith is true? I mean... surely you wouldn't expect people to take your word for it do you? And wouldn't you admit that the only means we have to choose the truth from delusion when it came to faith was by identifying what is most harmonious with the Holy Bible?
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR In regard to matters of God & Jesus & God's will for mankind, & what God & Jesus teach, I NEVER expect anyone to just "take my word for it"!! & I think I have been very clear in that...I have supplied scriptures to show what God's Word teaches; what Jesus teaches, how God pointed man to His son; how Paul shows us that in Christ we are FREE...yes, free from the bondage of "man" & his religion; free to be ourselves; & free to be now led by Holy Spirit; we don't need anyone to teach us!!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Reasoning from the Holy Bible:
Earlier in your comments, you mentioned a few things that really made me think(good comments). And that was to let God's word speak for itself, AND that we wouldn't need an organization to explain it to us(correct). And I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. But that doesn't mean that the bible will be any easier to understand either. Or... that we wouldn't need help to come to terms with what's written in it.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Yes!! You make another great point!! As we are individuals at different levels of spiritual understanding, & as we each can make a "contribution" to help other believers, we are encouraged in the Bible to "not to forsake the coming together" for upbuilding & so on.
The scriptures simply make it clear that we are under (first & foremost) the tutelage of the Holy Spirit (1John 1: 27).
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... The point is, though Christians are encouraged to "come together," we are NOT under the AUTHORITY of any "man," or any religion, or an organization of "man," but we are "bought with the Blood of Christ," & in Him, we are His Sheep, & He is OUR "Shepherd," (no "man" is our "shepherd"), & we are FREE in CHRIST!! (John 8:12; 31-32,36)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie .
RE: Coming to terms with what's in the bible:
I'd like to break out of character for a moment and share a few facts about the bible and some of the ideas mentioned in your comments. And I know you claimed that you were not a bible Scholar(I realize that). However... based on what you've written, I'm thinking that you likely have never read the entire bible either. And if not, I would encourage you to do so at your earliest convenience. Because it will change your life.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Reading the bible:
Having said that, those who have read the bible, would not invest in most of the mindsets you proposed(not trying to be mean here). But I can't think of a softer way to say it(sorry).
1. Organized religion(bad).
The bible clearly shows that Paul setup and established Christianity(religion). Which wasn't simply a one time affair. No in fact, it was his mission to establish Christian congregations, Why? So that Jesus' commandment could be carried out.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Of course!! Yes, we know Paul set up Christian religion, but we are not UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF MAN, or religion, but that though we respect our spiritual authority, as in "respecting those taking the lead among us," we are first & foremost under the authority of God & Jesus Christ, to have a personal relationship with Jesus & God, & to allow ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit of God & Jesus.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Reading the bible(2)
2. Once saved always saved:
Here again, we see the theme of the bible strongly opposing such a mindset. And this is not a simple case of a few scriptures, but entire summaries based on the mindset that salvation is highly pervasive and should be maintained in order to be achieved.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I do believe that once we are saved, we are SAVED by the Blood of Christ, otherwise He would not have said so many times that when we have "come to Him," we HAVE eternal life; that when we become His, He GIVES us eternal life. Whatever any other scriptures say, once we have come under the power of God's Holy Spirit, we belong to God & to Jesus, & no matter what anyone else may say, one who is "in Christ" does not want to practice sin, but God works with us even if we are "bad," now.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... No matter what one may "look like" to someone else, God knows His children, & though one may be "bad," or though one may have gone on a wrong path, God is faithful, & as Jesus said, He knows His sheep, & His sheep know Him, & they hear His voice, & they follow Him...it doesn't mean that they won't screw up, or that their immaturity or shortcomings may get them into a lot of trouble, or that they may forget God, but that God doesn't forget THEM...ever!
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: if the Bible is wrong...
Have you considered the possibility that this discussion could very well be such a correction?
Having read your views, I was able to point-out several bible contradictions with them. And I certainly felt the urgency in doing so. Just imagine if you are mistaken? The cost is of the utmost importance.
Also, are you aware that the bible warns of Satan masking himself as a light in the darkness?
We have very good reason to tread carefully.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Yes, I understand your point, & yes, I do believe that Satan most definitely turns himself into an angel of light, but that is why I simply trust in God & in Jesus & in what I can read for myself in the Bible.
I am aware that there is much knowledge that has been withheld from mankind, & that I may be ignorant of many things, but I believe in God's Plan of Salvation. I am like the jailers who asked Paul what they had to do to be saved, & after it was explained to them, that was it.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: I do not base any of my beliefs on man.
May I ask how you came to the conclusions you now have?
RE: Jesus didn't die to give us religion...
Yes, I agree. However.. this statement can be slightly misleading, as there were no religions in that day. Though on the same side of the coin, he speak of building a church did he not? And so, the issue I have with this is where God's will had yet to be made manifest. However, the Apostles did work to carry out his will.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Jesus didn't die to give us religion(2)
Having said that, we haven't yet addressed how we would fulfill His commandments without organization either. And to this I would ask, how else could this be done? And more importantly, where is it now? Because last I looked, baptism was not a commodity, but a necessity and commandment.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I am not saying that religion is not important, or that religion does not serve a purpose, but that religion should not be a means of CONTROL, or an authority over any man HIGHER than the authority of God & Jesus in their life. And in the "name of religion," much evil has been committed; yes, "in the name of God," & because of religion, many have suffered terribly, both physically & emotionally.
God is first & foremost. God is everything to me. God is truth & God is love..
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: I supplied scriptures to show what God's Word teaches; Jesus teaches. Paul shows us that in Christ we are FREE...yes, free from the bondage of "man" & his religion; free to be ourselves; & free to be now led by Holy Spirit; we don't need anyone to teach us!!
Yes, you did supply scriptures.
Though I have not read any supporting the omitense of organized religion.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I do not know how to comment to you...I do not recognize the word, "omitense," & I could not find it in my dictionary.
Again, though religion may be good, & serve a wonderful & fulfilling purpose, it should NOT, nor should any religion EVER be of a HIGHER authority than Jesus & God or Holy Spirit by which we are to be led...we are imperfect humans with many levels of intelligence & education & egos & character, but there is only ONE GOD, & we are to look to Him as our authority...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Reading the bible(3):
3. Jesus/God/Son etc.
Here again, as you saw, this nowhere near a black and white issue(as some would argue). And this isn't so much an open and shut case, as it would be a case of asking someone why they believe Jesus is God and vice-versa against the evidence in the bible. And I'm not criticizing anyone for this, other than saying, don't tell me you know better(not you specifically, but in the general sense I meant).
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Reading the bible(4):
But overall... you're criticism seems to be that you don't like organized religion. Fine, I get that. However, the bible does not support this criticism and so, there is no way to establish this as anything but a personal opinion at this point. I mean.... in all fairness, where are these disciples suppose to get baptized according to Jesus' commandment? - And this is a very real issue.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I didn't realize that I sounded "critical," though I do oppose any organization that holds their followers "hostage" in the sense that they are afraid to even CONSIDER looking at any "evidence" that might change what they believe as that organization has taught them to believe as ABSOLUTE TRUTH...
I am not against anyone belonging to any organization or religion; that's heir personal choice!! but my concern is when anyone does not know salvation in Christ, or know that they are free.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: we are NOT under the AUTHORITY of any religion or organization:
I'd agree, though I think most people recognize that the moment people come to together, they organize also. And in cases such as this, the authority of the bible would undoubtedly carry through just as it did with the congregations of Corinth etc. Though I really don't think its possible to fulfill Jesus commandment without some for of organization and that's a serious issue; past, present and future imo.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR LOL, Yes!! Of course we must have organization!! (smile) Can you imagine even a HOME where there is no organization?? Chaos to the MAX!!
The Christian Church that I belong to is one of loving fellowship that I personally feel good about being a part of, & I have learned that, generally, each church has it's own organization within itself; that is, like a family within their home, they "organize" in a way that works best for them, but they follow the Biblical guidelines of Christ.
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: Reading the bible(5):
In summary, I concluded that salvation(in your view), is accepting Christ as the One true God.
However, since the bible doesn't directly support this, what are we to make of such a claim?
But even at that... How does one conclude what is right and what is wrong?
How could one ever know if someone else has left Jesus into their hearts or not?
These are very dangerous terms to live by imo.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
RE: What the bible says and teaches:
In closing I would say that this statement(though nobble) will end-up being your biggest challenger. And that is where the bible itself contradicts most of the mindsets proposed in your comments. Which raises some rather controversial questions.
If we accept doctrines made-up of only select parts of the scriptures, then why would we choose these ones over those made-up of the entire bible(harmonious)?
A very serious question.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Nowhere in Scripture do we read that Jesus was ever a "created being," but that IN the beginning, He WAS; in other words, Jesus already existed IN the time period that we humans understand as "the beginning."
In Greek, the word for "was" denotes "past, continuous action." We can therefore understand John 1:1 to read, "In the beginning the Word CONTINUOUSLY was, & the Word was CONTINUOUSLY with God, & the Word was CONTINUOUSLY God.
There is only ONE TRUE GOD. Jesus is "God's Word."
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Therefore I don't think the WTS is an heir to the concept of Jesus as a lesser being considering the direct context surrounding the issue from the bible. And I don't mean this by quoting a few scriptures here and there, but rather where 100's of passages directly make references to Jesus as the lesser being in the NT alone.
Therefore if we eliminate all indirect reasoning, then we'd have no choice but to accept Jesus as the literal Son of God rather than being equal to or God.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
And on a last note from Jesus' own mouth:
In a prayer to his Father; "Jesus looked up and said, Father, the time is here. Give your Son glory so that he can give you glory....(SNIP) ... This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. 4On earth I have given you glory by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5Now, Father, give me glory in your presence with ***the glory I had with you before the world existed.
Hmmm....
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR I have over twenty-three responses from you, & I am sure that I am "lost," & have therefore not been able to respond to all of your comments...
I am just a simple person. I try to answer a JWs question as best as I can. My goal is not to argue, but to point one to God's Word, & to His Plan of Salvation which is through His Son, Jesus.
God is one God. Jesus is His Word, & our Shepherd. There is only ONE PLAN of salvation, & it isn't through an organization. Jesus is "The Truth"
1955annemarie 7 months ago
Respond to this video... "Therefore, as you have accepted Christ Jesus the Lord, go on walking in (union with) Him, rooted & being built up in Him & being stabilized in the faith (of the Good News about the Christ...Gal 1:7)
"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy & empty deception according to the tradition of men...& not according to Christ." NWT See Col 2:6-9
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Finally, doing one's best to be an imitator of Christ Jesus, WITHOUT being willing to COME TO HIM; without being willing to understand that it is GOD'S Plan that mankind COME TO JESUS to have their "sins covered over" by the Blood of Christ, & that God NEVER POINTED US TO ANY ORGANIZATION OR RELIGION, but that God pointed mankind to His Son, our reigning King, is not going to be pleasing to God, nor is being an imitator of Christ without recognizing Him fully showing obedience to God
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Thanks to guys like Crosscheck, I found myself researching JW's and to my surprise... they seem to be the only group who are actively "trying" to follow Christ. Are they perfect? Hell no! - I personally would not agree to being called a prophet(even if it was only once!) nor would I publicly criticize other religions. Then again... surely you yourself would admit. There are religions out there who make a mockery out of the bible and it's intent.
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR "Perfection" has NOTHING to do with the point of the issue!! No one is talking about being "perfect," but I am only saying that God is clear in His Word, & His Word is TRUTH, (John 17:17), & that no "clever reasonings" of man should deter us from "hearing" God. Further, Jesus clearly told us that HE is "The Truth," (John 14:6), & that we are to follow Him.
God pointed all of mankind to His Son, our reigning King & Savior, Jesus. Why is that so hard to understand? (Matt 11:28-30)
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
1. the term "perfection" was not literal.
2. have you ignored the questions I asked or did not you not address them yet?
I get the feeling that were going in circles here.
Is this how people uphold Jesus' ministry today?
By avoiding direct answers?
I asked a very specific set of serious questions and I hope that either yourself of others here are just preaching against other religions. Because, at the sight of things, it would appear as though you are preaching therefore...
SmalltimR 7 months ago
@SmalltimR Sorry! I am not trying to ignore you, but I have a small child here, & it is very difficult to explain simple things to a follower of the Watchtower beliefs; it just takes time to figure out how to answer you as plainly & as succinctly as possible, while supplying the proper scriptures that would clearly show you in your own Bible the truth of God & of His Plan of Salvation which is through His Son, our Lord & Savior, Jesus...
1955annemarie 7 months ago
@1955annemarie
Yes, I understood that as you were still writing.
So having said all this, could you summarize the steps(based on your understanding) needed to be saved.
SmalltimR 7 months ago