Response to Mr. Stefan Molyneux by Peter Joseph 1

[knglerxst]

4:00 This is one problem I also saw with Stefan's review. Lying and being disingenuous is about the same to me. Modern advertising is built on misleading people.  Stefan also seems to think that we make decisions inside a vacuum. You can tell he's never read much about the environment's influence on human behavior.

[knglerxst]

Stefan really showed his true colors in that review.

[adhocrat1]

I keep hoping someone will actually come up with some good response to Stefan. This isn't one.

What Stefan is saying makes sense, What you are saying doesn't.

Planned obsolescence is a meaningless phrase. Varying qualities would be more accurate. We purchase the quality of good most suited to our needs. If it is cheap, we expect it to wear out faster. Quality is the proper term. You are complaining that we have choices.

[franks2732]

@adhocrat1 "Planned obsolescence is a meaningless phrase" No it is not it is actually a deliberate market strategy taught in Business. Business now builds things that break down at point x . Where as before you used to be able to buy a lifetime warranty you can no longer do so. In the case of computers and printers etc. Companies like Sony etc has written in "code" in programs on the machine itself to force the machine to fail. The idea of quality is quaint but not a reality these days.

[adhocrat1]

@franks2732

then explain why my car lasts a lot longer now than my car in the 1960s?

[franks2732]

@adhocrat1 The Former East Germany perfected a 20 year light bulb. It could be produced as cheap as a light bulb that would break in 3 months. The light bulb did not make it to the market place in the west as Companies refused to buy it. When asked they said 'what's the point' no will buy a new one. The "choice" of the consumer was not in effect. Given the choice the consumer would have purchased the 20 year lightbulb. Electric light companies had no willingness for that to occur. tbc

[adhocrat1]

@franks2732

lol

You sure are gullible

[franks2732]

@adhocrat1 He is complaining rightly because there is no "real choice". People are being forced to choose. Because "choice' and the "freedom to choose" seldom if at all relate to the real world of "big business. Another example is the electric car that GM produced. They refused to "sell" the car and leased them only. The car could travel about 200km on a charge and required little or no maintenance. The car was "called in" by GM. GM has over 300,000 people willing to buy the car.

[Th3View5ofWe]

i jthink it is interesting how neither Alex Jones or Stefan Molyneux allow comments to be posted on any of their videos regaurding thier critisisms on the zeitgeist films. however i think to post such a video as they have done and not allow people to express thier oppinion about it is arrogant behavior.either that or its an indicator that they are threatened by the opposition of others.either way i think they are both full of shit. however those are simply my opinions....

[Th3View5ofWe]

and how did you mannage to pull darwinism and nazism out of your arrogant ass? seriously please elaborate, i am curious.

[Th3View5ofWe]

so you are a writer and it is bullshit because you personally dont compete with others. you know the biggest problem with human communication is when we assume ALL our perceptions are correct. just because you dont utilize the incentives of competition doesnt mean that for example, oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, tech industries, and even small buisinesses dont compete and profit from doing so. what peter says may not be true for everyone but it is for the majority of the free market.

[fps0chris]

People want to dominate the market therefore the markets bad? whaaaaat? I guess the people in charge of allocating resources in your utopia will be magically fairies who just wanna be nice.....good to see you fall into the fallacy that every democrat/republican falls into today.

[VenusAsABoyFilms]

Stefan just has a huge ego ... that's his big problem.

[MrSerenityNow]

Commie Bullshit. 

[glopur0]

@jckchrstphr Precisely why I am a social anarchist, after the classical anarchists (such as the zoologist and anarcho-communist, Pyotr Kropotkin). Mutual aid IS a factor of evolution. We are ONE. "All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers… Each one owes infinitely more to the human race than to the particular country in which he was born." - François Fenelon

[JerryTheHeretic]

Peter Joseph you conflate corporatism with actual free markets. that is your flaw in your "rebuttal".

[Mal9906]

@JerryTheHeretic What is an actual free market? anarcho capitalism? What, in a actual free market, prevents both economic and military monopoly? And corruption, forced prostitution, collusion, propagandav++ I see monetary/power incentive in all these action, what in a actual free market removes these motivations/incentives?

[JerryTheHeretic]

@Mal9906 You ask many questions that require more space than I have here to replay to. The answers are there if you are in fact truly seeking knowledge. So instead let me begin where it seems we both agree. You hate force, collusion, and propaganda as well as I so it stands to reason that if given the choice you would not freely support (monetarily or in other ways) such organizations that operate this way. It is only under statist systems that you and I have no choice but to fund them.

[Mal9906]

@JerryTheHeretic No, you're right, I wouldn't. Though I'm not worried about you, me and other people that are informed, but the uninformed masses. To me it seems like the masses could easily be subdued by corporation/elite interests and instead of state fascism we would end up with private fascism. But I'll have an honest look at the information, got any links?

[JerryTheHeretic]

@Mal9906 If the argument about the uninformed masses is true then it cuts both ways. These are the people in control of government which operates by using force threats and coercion. Also it seems to be some misunderstanding on your part (forgive me if I'm wrong) about what a corporation is. In a stateless society corporations would not exist. They are a manifestation of the state. Anyway here's a vid on how arbitration could be handled in a stateless society. =tE9dZATrFak

[ExquisiteDoom]

Just saying the pharmaceutical industry and cancer industry as proof for profit is at the expense of people isn't saying anything, you don't explain why, you just say it; how stupid do you think your own supporters are?.... Oh wait, it's a requirement. lol

"forced towards something is is necessary" Necessary to who? You never explained that, you just say it, in relation to what? No explanation either , I can't beleive people take this shit seriously. I think i'll make videos denouncing you.

[ExquisiteDoom]

Clerks don't really give a shit about stating that competitors offer better prices. What is the boss going to do, fire them? Over a small purchase? Peter is acting like he's NEVER been to a store. You say molyneux is not thorough about why lying doesn't get you far, and you counter that with "in fact they get extremely far", you hypocrite!

If profits came at the expense of everyone most of the time, don't you think the system would have failed 400 years ago when it began to be employed?

[ExquisiteDoom]

Haha, i dare you Joseph to debate me. You're the King of intellectual dishonesty, you almost fucked me when i was gullible and watched zeitgeist. Yes the ultimate goal is monopoly, no shit, stefbot is a retard, does it happen in practise? To answer that you first have to differentiate markets and states, in a fully free market situation, monopolies are extremely unlikely, how much would you have to bid up a price to buy out the last enterprise? Yea, of course you have no economic background.

[TSMPimpDaddyPain]

@ExquisiteDoom how do you call stefbot a retard, then proceed to agree with him?

[ExquisiteDoom]

@TSMPimpDaddyPain He's a freemarket guy but focuses on moral rhetoric and doesn't explain in any detail what the calculation problem is which leaves a lot of wiggle-room for VP people to rationalize their viewpoint. He didn't explain how without a monetary system, you suffer from several epistemological problems such as having no means to measure losses or gains in relation to human needs. An RBE doesn't give anyone a reason to leverage skill and knowledge or hamper overconsumption.

[bigtarrose]

The fatal flaw in anarchism is who is supposed to tell the difference between self defence and random violence. Private police and military under cap-anarchy would favor who ever pays the most.

[ExquisiteDoom]

@bigtarrose Yes and take the risk of taking the financial blows when the truth is exposed by insurance company accountants. This is a pedestrian level argument. Stefbot is an idiot but this is no reason to dismiss a whole ideology just because some retard expouses it.

[JerryTheHeretic]

@bigtarrose  Yea ..thank god OJ's money didnt get him off!

[flyattic]

I am a listener of molyneux's work and i find him to be logical in most subjects apart from his ideas on the free market. This video was a great rebuttal to his zeitgeist "review" . As pointed out in this video he throws out wild assumptions without any logic or evidence, compared to the majority of his other videos where he does supply a stream of logic. The bottom line is Molyneux is a great philosopher but it widly misguided when it come to economics. Eventually his logic will lead him here.

[83Pindi]

thats ridiculous, you think competition makes things better, there are endless amounts of cell phone companies but pathetic deals, endless amounts of shampoos but they all  are full of harmful chemicals that are unnatural for you... there are endless amounts of drugs yet no cures, tell me what competition is good for , other than profit...

[MtnDwarf]

Have to love Stefan domination of Mr. Joseph and his recycling of a philosophy that had been dis proven from its onset. Look up The marginal revolution and the socialism calculation problem. Mr. Joseph is a confused child.

[deanjdk]

@MtnDwarf

Are you deluded?You actually think stefan dominated??

[MtnDwarf]

@deanjdk Yes of course. The whole logical premise of this resource based economy is flawed. The idea that there is no scarcity and somehow the fact that we have scarcity is some plot by people is nonsense and proves a fundamental misunderstanding of all economic thought and principles. Scarcity can only be removed if for instance we could make all manner of matter organization within an instant at a whim of our mind and transport all matter in the same manner.

[deanjdk]

@MtnDwarf nobody is saying "there is no scarcity"..but it can be demonstrated that scarcity for the most part is created due to profit incentive.please stop making stawman arguments.By the way..your resort to ad hominem attacks does nothing to solidify your point

[MtnDwarf]

@deanjdk Dude, "Nobody is saying there is no scarcity", that is exactly what Joseph claims. This is not a straw man argument this is taken directly from his marxist recycled philosophy. As for your profit motive assertion, profit motive has nothing to do with the creation of scarcity. This is not demonstrated, you fail to identify the source. These issues can only be prevalent with the threat of violence from government creating barriers to entry into markets.

[deanjdk]

@MtnDwarf You say profit motive has nothing to do with the cration oif scarcity?!?!One word...oil

[MtnDwarf]

@deanjdk, you betray your ignorance with every new post. We have increased our oil reserves every year. Before you make comments like this you have to understand the premise you are attacking. In a profit and loss system not distorted by government, as a resource becomes more scarce people incrementally are incentivised to provide alternatives. This is exactly what lead the the production of oil into a usable product to begin with. As wales became more scarce people started searching...

[MtnDwarf]

@MtnDwarf for alternatives. At the time crude oil was considered nothing more then a pollutant. If you found it on your property it destroyed the farm land and made it useless.

This is the reality of a free market or better put the free market is reality and any distortions or changes that people try to make to it are destructive. In a free market you will NEVER run out of anything because if there is a demand for something at that resource becomes more expensive people find alternatives.

[ExquisiteDoom]

@MtnDwarf I started responding before reading most of the comments, i am glad you have done your part of debunking Peter's communist facelift. you were at the right place at the right moment

[MtnDwarf]

@deanjdk The proof that Joseph provides is this idea that cars are made to break down and that we can create a really fast train. Again, even if the government holds back technological improvement (which it does) is not proof that scarcity does not exist. This is a fundamental logical error of his entire philosophy making his entire philosophy and recycling of Marxism invalid weak sauce trash. Again Mr. Joseph is a very smart but confused, misguided, narcissistic child.

[technatezin]

@MtnDwarf The micro details of the economy can be fixed at a particular point of optimal engineering efficiency for any product that you can see in the market. This makes the calculation problem solvable given less labor intensive and more technology intensive manufacturing processes implemented into the macro economy.



[ExquisiteDoom]

@technatezin And what do you base your assumptions on? What is your metric, calorical consumption? And this measurement still doesn't resolve the incentive issues unless you plan on using a calorical monetary unit, and that seems to lead to severe liquidity issues (ignoring the learning curve for such an implementation).

The calculation problem not only means you don't know what humans need or want or how to get it, but also pertains to the individual's reasons to produce.

[BreakingTheBanality]

Peter Joseph has been invited to debate / discuss differences with Stefan Molyneux but declined.

[PaintMarkets29]

@BreakingTheBanality

Yup.

I'd pay to see Peter Joseph go head on with Molyneux, but I think Joseph knows deep down that he'd be intellectually cornered, and rejects.

[machogun]

@BreakingTheBanality Citation needed......

[MouseCaneta]

@BreakingTheBanality Mind posting where u got that information?

[andthereisntone]

@BreakingTheBanality that is sadly telling, huh.

[highlander985]

@BreakingTheBanality

actually it was the other way around. Peter Joseph INVITED Stefan Molyneux in a debate and Stefan declined.

[FutureSave]

Deanjdk - Thank you for this post because Mr Molyneux doesn't allow public comments on his Addendum 'Review'. He is so full of contradiction its difficult to know where to start. Perhaps the first thing he should do is look up a few dictionary definitions of what 'Profit' is - "Pecuniary gain resulting from the employment of capital in ANY transaction".

[deanjdk]

iv recently started addressing stefan molyneuxs review myself, look in my videos for the first part,i should have the full review up within the next week

[sumadartsan]

Could you link to the video you are responding to?

[glopur0]

Without competition, there is no reason to make anything better.....

You guys need to read some Rand and some Rothbard. Your just helping the statists by confusing voluntaryism with violence.

Who is threatening us more? Wal-Mart? or the government with the military, police, and court system?????

[MouseCaneta]

@glopur0 "Without competition, there is no reason to make anything better....." based on what?

[bluntpunk83]

@glopur0 walmart



[derapfelstrudel]

@glopur0

Rothbard? The guy who advocates a "flourishing free market in children" and spend a great deal of time wirting articles with thinly veiled descriptions about sending the blacks back to Africa, and whom even half the free market community consider insane? Rand, the fiction writer who is also largely an embarrassment to free market philosophy?

Look, if you want to masturbate to free market fantasies, go ahead. But do yourself a favour and read some Hayek, Kevin Carson and Samuel Konkin.

[derapfelstrudel]

If anyone wants a real defense of non-market/non-monetary economies by people educated in the field of economics, the following authors are recommended:

-John O'Neill

-Paul Cockshott

-Leonid Kantorovich

-Otto Neurath

-Robin Hahnel (with Michael Albert)

-David McNally

[thedriftmc]

@derapfelstrudel Thankyou so much for this. Myself (Politics grad) and my Lawyer (working in govt) are currently scratching heads on how to make this very very real, and mainly how to convince others to abandon what they know so far, starting with Govt and govt. financial departments. I will point him in this direction.

[MGGoblin]

@glopur0 Absolutely not TRUE. I don't need competition to concibe things and make new inventios. In fact... I usually don't make decisions to compete with somebody but I make them to CREATE something... for example I am a writer and I do not compete with other writers. Pure bullshit.

[MGGoblin]

@glopur0 And you know? That is pure darwinism (or nazism) "Life forms compete to conquer one another".

[neobudda1]

@glopur0 yes lets all read rand and watch fox news. time to evolve monkey! we the 99% demand 99% of everything!

[stephenrblv]

@glopur0 Ya well the whole point is this system is based on eliminating competition. That is what Capitalism seeks. Instead of competing, they seek to eliminate competitors. Once they do this like WalMart does, the quality sinks and the prices rise.

[musicworld01]

yeah- Stefan has no idea what he is talking about.

[sinhalaboy]

Exactly. You know I made these videos as reponse to his video. He still haven't accepted it.

[fps0chris]

@musicworld01 I know this may be out of line....but can u back up your claims? Inoe asking a VP junkie something like that its a tall order, but maybe you can get a coherent thought together for me =). Thanks in advance