The 12 Steps Reversed - Alcoholics Anonymous

[DJLunasf]

who cares. This vid or any aa pro or con means nothing. It'spolitics.

[Commonsense11111]

the "war on self' is to further break down already beaten down people. This is done so that the AA members can abuse people and feel superior to them. AA is a cult of abuse with the license of religion, and the lie of it somehow being beneficial, and endorsed by God.

[karmalevel]

@Commonsense11111 yep I notice that they love to feel superior to newcomers!!

[tc6757]

All those steps were me when I was drinking

[DJLunasf]

i love the AA lingo... just like at my job. "You have a case of the Monday's" AKA: "Co-sign someone's BS". Or... Live and let live... aka: "Insert another corporate or cult saying". lol

[inwood75]

we say right after the preamble. WE want every one to feel safe. If you dont feel safe please tell the secretary of someone you trust. WE feel that no one should be sexually or financially harassed in any way. then there is silence and we begin.

[blamethenile]

@inwood75 Hi again. Sorry I didn't recognize your userid until I visited your homepage. Mike BD

[inwood75]

I went to a big meeting (200 people) with my safety statement pamphlet and the secretary tried to throw me out.!!!

[blamethenile]

@inwood75 What is the safety statement pamphlet, aside from not AA-approved? Mike BD

[inwood75]

thanks for all your great videos!

[blamethenile]

@inwood75 Thank you. Mike BD

[MagiMysteryTour]

Zen riddle (koan)

Q: If I shut up, how can I pray? A: If audio is removed from my video, how can I post?

[beautifulmind546]

Interesting reading these as some of the first few talk about personal responsibility and then they are mixed with behaviors of narcism and psychopathy. I doubt this was accidental. It reinforces their programming that people are powerless without AA and it's 'program'. True nature of 'the program' is hidden in plain site = programming = mind control. Grapevine? Where the fruits of wine come from? It's so blatently obvious.

[kewldude1958]

shut up and pray.

[IGOROZKARSKY]

This God Non-Sense about staying sober can be traced back to William James´s book, "Varieties of religious experience" where he studied some religious nutcases

and religious crackpots.

[IGOROZKARSKY]

MY DRINKING ISN´T AA´S BUSINESS ?

IS MY NOT DRINKING (Sobriety) AA´S BUSINESS ?

[kewldude1958]

SHUT UP AND PRAY

[blamethenile]

@kewldude1958 If I shut up, how can I pray? Mike

[MagiMysteryTour]

"If I shut up, how can I pray?"

Silently. It's called meditation. Which brings up an interesting thought: what percentage of Buddhists are alcoholics vs. percentage of Christians? I bet you it is much less. I bet you the ability to practice stillness and serenity eliminates most of the pretexts people use in our society for becoming alcoholics. And it's peculiar that AA claims that Jesus is the answer to this problem. Perhaps if they claimed Buddha was the answer AA would be more effective.

[kc1964kc]

@kewldude1958 Funny how you're promoting zietgeist, yet you say shut up and pray? How...? Ur um...did you not watch the movie? Oh i forget your a cult member. I just don't get it...like how a woman can be a Catholic too? just completely escapes me. Ok.

[willbond]

AA helped me get and stay sober. I saw lots of goofballs in there, but also lots of caring, helping, no bullshit people, like my sponsor. There was nothing "Cult" about it.

[SubconsciousGatherer]

This comment contains an audio track that has not been authorized by WMG. The comment has been disabled.

[msmoosepie4453]

im sorry for your loss. sometimes life is to hard for the best of us. you know A.A. saved my life i was fortunate to have some kind of understanding of who my higher power was when i came. some of us dont. A.A. taught me how to get back intouch with the [GOD] of my understanding he can do anything if i let him.

[msmoosepie4453]

ha ha ha only a alcoholic like me can turn somthing around to justify my B.S. i have these 12 steps reversed.was that before or after you got honest with yourself? thank GOD ihave sponcer who refuses to cosighn my bullshit. oh i forgot you are still sponcering yourself. hows that working for you?

[blamethenile]

@msmoosepie4453 Very well. Thanks for asking. Mike BD

[kc1964kc]

@msmoosepie4453 Zombie AA parrot Cult talking through you (hows that, cosign bs etc)..wow...where do start? o i just did. my thought here is you justify your bs by calling yourself an alcoholic though you haven't had a drink? Sponsor= Primary AA Cult brainwasher can spell check for you too? And maybe your brain washer could tell you the dogma about keeping your street clean (blah blah blah) why do you troll here instead of calling your sponsor? You know down deep aa is shit, that's why.

[mamasboy815]

@kc1964 Dude you call me angry? Sounds like your pissed off at the world! You think maybe you have brain washed yourself? Before I was a Alcoholic,I was nothing more than a Drunk! I want to tell you how blanked out you are to what's real and what aint.The person you are calling a Zombie,Angry,Parrot. Is my 12 year old daughter! She is TROLLING this video because AA saved her daddys life!!!!! I keep my street clean because it was dirty!I call my sponcer because he is one smart dude.A.A.Helped me!

[mamasboy815]

@mamasboy815 It didnt brainwash me. 30 years of drinking brainwashed me!I think maybe my little girl might be getting brainwashed though?She shouldnt be TROLLING?Or pretending to be me?Before A.A. I was a TROLL and if my little girl had of pretended to be me?She would be drunk and brainwashed by booze. probably a Troll maybe Dead? I dont know.I sure am glad I've lived long enough to tell you this though! Oh yeah,why are you trolling this channel?

[Commonsense11111]

@mamasboy815 what you just wrote doesn't make any sense

[kc1964kc]

@msmoosepie4453 if your such a true aa zombie cult believer than why do you troll this video/comment section? I know why-because some little voice down deep knows that AA is based in fear and lies. And that little voice makes you angry. I thought AA was a spiritual thing not an angry thing or sarcastic thing or a mean thing like your msg hear represents? Anyways, congrats on staying sober today, YOU did it not your cult...come on out here and join us please. Step away from the rooms. u'll be ok

[kc1964kc]

@msmoosepie4453 if your such a true aa zombie cult believer than why do you troll this video/comment section? I know why-because some little voice down deep knows that AA is based in fear and lies. And that little voice makes you angry. I thought AA was a spiritual thing not an angry thing or sarcastic thing or a mean thing like your msg here represents? Anyways, congrats on staying sober today, YOU did it not your cult...come on out here and join us please. Step away from the rooms. u'll be ok

[lodramaqueen]

My brother died because of A.A. Take a man with no self esteem, no feelings of self worth and tell him he's powerless..tell him he will "relapse"....Reinforce powerlessness, disease, and relapse...and he's dead at 50. Everytime he came out of a 12 step based program, he was worse than when he went in. It's a cult. One size does NOT fit all in recovery. We are all not religious and to say one's higher power can be a tree or a rock is just BS!!!

[seeker4trth]

@lodramaqueen I'm sorry to hear about your brother...12stepism has so many victims, it staggers the mind...

[lodramaqueen]

My brother died because of A.A. Take a man with no self esteem, no feelings of self worth and tell him he's powerless..tell him he will "relapse"....Reinforce powerlessness, disease, and relapse...and he's dead at 50. Everytime he came out of a 12 step based program, hewas worse than when he went in. It's a cult. One size does NOT fit all in recovery. We are all not religious and to say one's higher power can be a tree or a rock is just BS!!!

[oldstumpcutter]

I see My glass as half full. A.A. dosen't have a low success rate, how about Alcoholism has a high mortality rate? If A.A. saves only a few its a good thing. Are Your Efforts helping Anyone:?

[blamethenile]

@oldstumpcutter If AA helps a few at the expense of the many, as we believe it does, the glass is pretty much empty. About 120 million Americans drink alcohol, yet alcohol accounts for only about 120k deaths/yr, or 1/10th of 1 percent of all who drink. Lying to people about AA's outcomes and methods isn't helping. Help begins with the truth. Mike

[Commonsense11111]

@oldstumpcutter yes they help a lot of people. if someone is promoting a cure for pneumonia by running around in the snow, and claiming that while 95 out of 100 die, five are saved by the cure, they are actually harming more than they help. this video is telling people to go inside, get out of the snow, and put on a blanket. for gods sake get out of the snow. AA is the snow for people with pneumonia. AA is poison to the spirit and soul.

[midas1x]

I've been attending AA for a few years, and I have to say this video made me chuckle. I see this stuff in the meetings all the time!

[oldstumpcutter]

This is why You need a sponsor who has a sponsor thats got a sponsor....

[blamethenile]

@oldstumpcutter Your one and only statement is becoming very redundant. Mike

[dix345]

he does not need any such thing. What he needs is none of your business.oldstumpcutter.

[19lucasjones]

this stuff is just for humor we watch it in meetings and at the rehab i work at.

[blamethenile]

Glad we put a smile on your face. Thanks, Mike

[dix345]

so what?

[dix345]

so what, 19.

[dix345]

pgaines, people did go to aa. They saw what they saw. I saw a lot of people NOT being helped.

[pgaines72]

Why would those who don't go to AA pretend to know what it's about? No therapist, medication, or rehab has helped so many otherwise helpless people.

[blamethenile]

I'm not sure who you are talking about, since the authors of these videos attended AA for a very long time. As for your claims regarding AA effectiveness, they are preposterous. Seventy-plus years, and AA's only verifiable number is the Gideonesque distribution of its sacred text. Thirty million big books, vs a claimed membership world-wide of only two million. Mike

[godlessweasel]

You said claimed! All day long they've been claiming not to make any claims... oh, my head hurts! Sorry Mike, they've given me gibberish-overload! :)

[jayhi1810]

I've been reading your posts and the damage you are potentially doing concerns me.

You'll turn off those who are considering the program and having a shot at saving their lives.

Some may be lucky enough to have health ins and can choose other forms of treatment, but what about those that don't? Those in low income jobs or homeless?

I'm sorry that the program hasn't worked for you but please encourage individuals to make their own choice!

[blamethenile]

We do encourage people to make their own choices--informed, researched choices. The belief that the program "saves lives" is not one which we share. Mike

[2pWORTH]

I dont go to AA and I know what its all about.I read and me and my daughter have lived with a member of AA for years.We have both been affected by it badly.Thats a problem I find with AA members you have no idea how you affect the people around you.AA tells you only an alcoholic understands an alcoholic.That is complete tripe we understand more than we would tell you and we suffer for it.

[CampsSuck]

Wow Blame!!!

To go as far as make a screen name "Nileblamin" and say some garbage and ask to be like you is nutz!!!!

It is like that all think the same, like they have no depth, their attrition comes from organized mounted attacks. I feel sorry for them!!!

[Yoganao]

AA is just another sick-assed cult.

[psilocybe4u]

i needed that thanks nile

[dix345]

nileblamin-- get a new joke book.

[Nileblamin]

I thought so, he cannot intelligently explain it.....OK

[blamethenile]

You never explained your knock-off of our userid. I'm guessing he just decided you weren't legitimate enough to take seriously. Mike

[Nileblamin]

Oh, Ok. Well I have been following the conversations here but not posting. I think you guys are really courageous to take on the powerful and entrenched 12 step industry like you have. The videos you make are really funny, informative and HELPFUL! I went to AA last year after my DUI and let me tell you, I hated it! They wanted me to "keep coming back" and find a "Higher Power"! It was a nightmare! So long story short, I wanted to emulate you. I like you so much! Can I be a blamer too? Carl

[blamethenile]

Sorry, but I sense you lack both the objectivity and the sincerity required to be a true blamedenialer. Needler and antagonist seem to be more in character for you. Mike

[Nileblamin]

I am confused. How is this offensive to J? Is it because if he doesn't believe in the innate benevolence of the 12 steps, then he assumes that by default he must believe in this person's interpretation of the opposite of the steps? I hope not, cause if that is the issue at work here....well....Can you say hypersensitivity? Can you say, walking around with a huge button and a sign saying "don't push button? I really don't get it. Please explain...Carl

[blamethenile]

I'm confused, as well. Who would create a brand new account with a knockoff of a site name, watch two videos, and misinterpret one of them? It is clearly stated in the tagline that the material contained in the video was copied verbatim from an AA publication. Sounds like your hypersensitivity button got mashed, hard. Mike

[Nileblamin]

Who said it wasn't copied verbatim? I saw that and understood it, I asked why it offended J. Can you answer? Carl

[blamethenile]

Am I offended? J (When people decide to reach their own conclusions, regardless of whether they support AA or not, it would be nice if they could keep me in the loop - it does take rather a lot to offend me; is that a problem because what I have read so far has only made me smile, and much?)

[Nileblamin]

For the love of GOD do you ever answer a straightforward question? Are you able? Up at the top of the screen, on the right, is some text, it is signed by J, I assume that is you? It says "it is very insulting to those of us who haven't". I inquired as to why? I would love to know....Carl

[blamethenile]

It looks like you will just have to ponder it on your own. J doesn't seem interested in responding to your demands for enlightenment. Mike

[nickh2727]

Federal courts have GOD written all over their doctrines. . I guess these federal courts are religous too! Guess you live in a religous nation since our currency says god on it as well! Deal with it!

[blamethenile]

No mention of God or religion was made in this video. Thanks for the OT rant. Mike

[dix345]

Federal courts having God all over their doctrines? Not relevant. AA is a religion.

The 'god ridden' federal courts have ruled so.

so much for 'deal with it'.

[blamethenile]

nick turned out to be just another flamer. Mike

[andyfreeze1]

This was a reference to the people who played games with the seriousness of getting sober, and THEIR opposite rationalisations. hahaha... anyone who couldn't understand what that grapevine article was about.... has to be completely dense!! you see sarcasm in satirical cartoons in the newspapers every day. you can't see that in this? hahahaha

[dix345]

andyfreeze1 - played with the seriousness of getting sober sober? hahahahaha 

arrogant drivel pretending to be self denigrating humor.

[prschuster]

Funny, but it wasn't until I started to criticize AA that I was taunted for having a big ego. A couple years ago I read a pamhplet from Hazelden titled: "King Baby" where it depicted the addict as an immature egotistical "baby". How can anyone get a healthy sense of self with such demeaning self talk.

[blamethenile]

The "King Baby" label was one applied to Bill Wilson by one of his psychiatrists, the father of AA's ego-deflation-in-depth, the Mad Scientist of AA, Harry Tiebout. AA's everywhere have Tiebout and Wilson to thank for the egotistical, self-centered stereotypical alcoholic description we have today. Mike

[prschuster]

I remember reading about this in the Orange Papers. The term Dr Tiebout used was "his majesty the baby". Then someone from Hazelden used the word "King Baby" in a well known pamphlet. It was an obvious reference to Tiebout's term. I picked it up at a booth in an art fair here in Minneapolis manned by Hazelden promoting "recovery". I was appalled by how blatantly demeaning it was.

[dix345]

Pure black comedy.

A great example of self congratualtion affecting to be self deprecation.

Hilarious.

[blamethenile]

Thanks. Mike

[FretMasher]

Which Magazine Edition and where can i find proof of this

[nickh2727]

how can aa be a religous group when its members are made up of Athiest, agnostic, mormans, christians, catholics,jews, budhist.....etc?

[notspeedy0314]

nick - how can roman catholicism be a religion if it allows the same diverse groups of people to attend weddings, christmas concerts, benefit from church-managed food drives, etc.?

AA is religious because its core philosophy rests on faith & belief in a supernatural, intervening power; it openly disdains atheism, agnosticism, & rational thought.

this is just opinion, but the % of self-identified atheists in AA is probably very small - single digits at best.

[nickh2727]

I bring my friends/family to work functions..vacations...bbq's..­.parties....does that make my company a religous organization? And i can name 10 self-identified athiest AA members in my hometown alone. I live in a city populated by only 50k people. I also live in the "BIBLE BELT"

[notspeedy0314]

nick - where you live notwithstanding, "I" is definitively not an 'organization' (AA preamble) or church, synagogue, buddhist center, etc. and your company's charter almost certainly does not mention 'god' even once, nor does it explicitly state that you follow its 'simple principles' or face death.

4 separate federal circuit courts have found AA to be a religious organization. deal with it.

[Israel4everIDF]

Israel will always rule. long live my Jewish people. we are Gods' chosen

[FretMasher]

LOL arrogance again at its finest. Yes isreal forever you are "gods" chosen...oh and yes I am mocking you...

[IamTHErealBLAMEdeny]

AA TOOK MY LIFE WHERE IS MY SPIKE?

[notspeedy0314]

phorph (cont)-AA doesn't embrace the science of the day, it doesn't embrace new psychological/neurological understandings regarding addiction. it continues to shoehorn the 12 steps into every newbie who walks in the door.

people helping people - the greatest beauty this world has to offer. that is (again IMHO) AA's true strength, true virtue. that's where AA needs to go in order to truly hold on to more of those newbies.

[soundbask]

go after alcohol... not a tried and true method of recovery that is helping millions of alcoholics stay sober this moment. If you do not like the fact that Judges mandate people to AA then take it up with the Judges.. it was their idea not AA. yes... I agree there's something not quite right about AA-as there's something not quite right about humanity. I think the question of crediblity comes into play now because a high percentage of non alcoholics want to control their drinking.

[blamethenile]

Millions? An ever-changing one million attend AA in the US at any given time, with a 5% one-year retention rate. Go to AA's website and pull up the brochure "How AA Members Cooperate With Professionals" to see how AA continues to support coercion from courts and others. The "real alcoholic" fallacy was old when Wilson first used it as a dodge in the bigbook. Thanks for the post. Mike

[Phorph1]

AA estimates 1.9 million which is just a guess but if you extrapolate from the meetings it's pretty reasonable. It's true that most newcomers do relapse within a year but a much higher percentage than 5% come back to put together some time. In any meeting I go to with more than 50 people more than half of them hill have past a year. That five percent statistic is meaningless,

[notspeedy0314]

phorph-seems i can't keep myself out of this discussion. you know i'm a member, i'm devoutly humanist, & i harbor sincere doubts about the 12X12 doctrine.

that said, i still think AA can be a great thing. but, IMHO, it has refused to allow itself to grow & change since the passing of bill w. - if not before. even the best statistics for AA's 'success' ratio are paltry & i can't put that on the 'suffering' individual. a 'spiritual' solution to a physical problem isn't the only answer.

[Phorph1]

Agreed, and I bring up the point all the time in meetings. The main issue I contend on this site is the willingness of the fellowship to tolerate heretics like me. I know from experience that no one has ever been cast out for being different. Folks do leave because of a number of other reasons. The number that do stay and prosper is significant and includes all stripes of people,spiritual and otherwise. One alcoholic helping another is the heart of the program for many of us

[blamethenile]

Why should we find solace in knowing that a program with a single-digit retention rate doesn't run people out? They are, for the most part,leaving anyway. Better to figure out ways to make AA more attractive and effective than to congratulate it for its ineffectiveness. Mike

[Phorph1]

I've had dozens of friends die from addiction as well, it's a self destructive mind set that finally at fault. Some of them have been in the rooms of AA and to be fair I wouldn't be surprised if you would have blamed the fellowship in some of the cases. I just believe, based on my own experiences and what I see in others,we're all responsible for our own choices. When most leave and a few stick around in spite of the abuse you claim doesn't that say more about them than the program?

[Phorph1]

"That really doesn't address the alcoholics who can't afford either medicine or therapy." Sorry, I'm a sloppy typist

[Phorph1]

Actually this is an interesting topic now that I'm reading about it. Check out "Sexual Attraction to Clients:

The Human Therapist and the (Sometimes) Inhuman Training System"

[notspeedy0314]

phorph-i think you're right, but i have found that i've had to temper my 'heresy' so as not to rile up the more strident tribe members. i just don't want the hassle.

mike has admitted to attending meetings now & again is probably a lot more outspoken on these issues. AA needs doubt & dissent, it needs to check itself if it is to truly 'grow' (& not necessarily in numbers). doubt inspires investigation, learning, reaching out.

that said, a belated happy holidays to you. take good care.

[Phorph1]

Thanks and Happy Holidays to you and everyone here. It's funny that I find myself in the position of challenging the clubhouse I go to in much the same way I do here. Your point is well taken and we have to choose our battles but strident over simplification and blanket statements are just hot button issues for me as well as unproductive. if someone's seeing daylight after a using problem it's hard for me to see how humility and gratitude on that and all issues is not the obvious destination.

[blamethenile]

In one breath, AA statistics can't be measured, then you state that much higher than 5% come back to put together some time. A 5% annual retention rate fits the statistical model AA itself puts forth perfectly. It also fits your year or more assertion just fine. Mike

[Phorph1]

Your best estimate for attendance would be to average the meetings and extrapolate from there which will, at best,

give you a ball park figure. In this case that figure is closer to two instead one million. I know most people in the fellowship do slip within a year but I also know a percentage come back and accumulate time. So a 5% slip rate in the first year may be true, but again all you can do is guesstimate but that doesn't tell you how many people come back at some point and stay sober.

[notspeedy0314]

phorph-buddy ... your math is just not up to the task on this one. even using your generous 'extrapolation' terminology:

100 in jan

95 gone by dec

50% (extrapolation) return next jan & stay sober -- a very, very generous extrapolation. that's still 47.5 (48) -- less than half of the original 100.

that's not 'rarely have we seen a person fail'. that's a coin toss.

alcoholics/addicts deserve better from their fellows than 'find god or get lost'. to a lot of ears, that's AA's message.

[blamethenile]

I don't have to best guess, guesstimate, extrapolate, or ball-park anything. I use AA's own published numbers and surveys. AA said they have slightly over 2 million world-wide members. AA said they have a 5% one-year retention rate. AA said 61% of its members are coerced. If you don't like the numbers, complain to AA. I don't like them, either, hence all the criticisms. Mike

[notspeedy0314]

i won't even say 'i hate to admit it' ... you're just right. and the larger organization has done nothing to address the issue - just relied on an antiquated, outmoded model in providing free, non-profit support for alcoholics.

you read AA proponents like Kurtz (obviously an educated person) & your head just throbs from the cognitive dissonance he puts forth. it's like the catholic church trying to defend the inquistion because 11th century doctrine called for it. inhumane & stupid.

[blamethenile]

And I find absolutely no solace in being right. When I consider the countless numbers of AAers I have known and cared about over the years, and the nearly-universal failure they experienced, and AA's complete denial of complicity in those failures, and its continued blaming of those it purports to help, it is gut-wrenching. Mike

[Phorph1]

Don't stress to much Mike,in my experience the number of people who are hurt by AA are minuscule next to the number that are helped or simple leave. I agree the dogma is more than dated and for those who can't find a work around another answer will be in order. For those of us who walk into a room of AA to find kindred spirits who can help us up on our feet, with or without strict adherence to the program, is more than we had a right to expect.

[blamethenile]

Don't stress too much, Robert, when your condescending dismissals of the dead and damaged friends I have known through AA no longer appear on this board. Mike

[Phorph1]

I've heard that some medical and talk therapies are as high as 20% but that still mean 80% of people fail. That really address the alcoholics who can't afford either medicine or therapy. Also what about all the therapist

who abuse their clients? In1991 The Task Force on Sexual Abuse of Patients reports that "23% of the incest survivors who go for help end up being abused sexually by professionals they trusted to help them. Tell me

why AA has to be safer than the rest of the world?

[FretMasher]

This guy is one of those Who thinks that all humans are the same (the author of these vids that is) And as far as his proof he bases his proof not on real numbers but on what another creator of another website such as his is telling him. In my opinion if any one is weak minded he is. I used to sit around watch movies made up by some dude like this guys and i actually started to believe it . but it was based on their opinion not on real facts..

[Phorph1]

There is not much difference between the attitudes on this site and those of the AA nazis in the rooms. It's not enough to just agree to disagree, those that disagree must be cast in the worst possible light with generalized accusations that are as mean spirited as they are ridiculous. I do sincerely hope in the case of both parties that people don't take them as seriously as they take themselves. My experience in AA is that most members learn to politely tolerate the zealots.

[blamethenile]

Hey, Robert, You may want to check out a few more of this guy's recent posts on some of the other vids before you embrace him as one of your own. Mike

[stonedragon35]

The A.A. way of life is not for everyone mostly those not willing to be honest with them selves or anyone else. The 12 step have been working in my life for 4 years. When i stopped drinking i was homeless and was good for nothing. Now i am attending college and am a useful member of society. BTW of course there is a war on self, Selfishness and self-centeredness was the cause of all my problems.

[notspeedy0314]

knee-jerk, reactionary manufactured outrage @ something james g. stumbled upon while perusing the 12SF board!

imagine, something less than intellectually rigorous in AA's Grapevine (published more than 20 years ago), something that those w/bad AA experiences might find smarmy. it boggles the mind!

for smart guys you sure play to the lowest common denominator. 'war on self', my ass. this is just demagoguery & preaching to the choir.

wouldn't play very well in court, either, would it james?

[blamethenile]

An ever-increasing choir, it would seem. It plays OK in the court of public opinion. Mike

[notspeedy0314]

m - 'seem' being the operative word there: responses to your vids run about 50/50. the iraq war played well in the court of public opinion back in the day, too. funny how the shook out, huh?

bottom line: when you've resorted to using a dopey old grapevine article as definitive evidence of AA's grand 'war on self', you're running out of rhetorical gas. the science is changing, counseling & psychotherapy may be lagging but not by much. the AA as religio-maniacal bogeyman motif is getting tired.

[notspeedy0314]

maia szalavitz's blog posts & andrew tatarsky's online petition did far more to squash the ramstad drug czar nomination than your '12 step nation' vid or any of the hot air expressed ad nauseum @ 12SF.

if you're about change & alternatives then you're about action. if you're about sniping & potshots, you make yt vids that go a long way toward ... maybe generating a few views & mixed-bag commentary. or you go to 12SF & sing the praises of the mighty (if ineffectual) k. ragge.

[blamethenile]

No doubt, there are some folks doing impressive work out there. Sorry our efforts don't measure up to your expectations.

If you want to talk about 12-step free or Ken Ragge, please do it there. Mike

[notspeedy0314]

m - i'd love to, but the great oz banned me after he couldn't formulate even the most rudimentary argument to substantiate his 'AA has a direct causal relationship to suicide' rants.

apparently disagreeing with ken is direct evidence of your unquestioning embrace of 12 step ideology. you've experienced it yourself & so did ray.

still, i'll leave off for now. not looking to make trouble for trouble's sake. start talking about hope, alternatives, action & i'll happily rejoin the conversation.

[Phorph1]

I gotta give it to you, you got game.Well said, the only thing i thought was missing on this site when I first found it was a fair objective voice to offset the guys obvious agenda but honestly it was never missing.Sane and rational voices from the fellowship have always posted and the juvenile pablum that's get regurgitated back at them just sounds sad.I'm actually glad for any legitimate debate over anything important like addiction and recovery but Ican't say most of what I see here qualifies

[blamethenile]

Responses say as much about the viewers as they do the vids. The vid based on the dopey old article was intended to portray one view of therapy held by some AA's. If you don't like the music, change the channel. Mike

[notspeedy0314]

m - you read my mind.

[tripyhippy]

dam the drugs of today must be some bad ass shit. sorry to fall for this goofy shit. i guess one needs to be fucked up to get what you guys are talking about??

[blamethenile]

Perhaps. Reckon you qualify? Mike

[tripyhippy]

wtf? i have been sober for 23 yrs in aa, yawl must be hanging with the sad ass people.

[blamethenile]

The quotes were taken from the Grapevine, AA's official monthly publication. What does a 26-foot sailboat have to do with unhappy people?

[humyepright]

All the people around here calling themselves winners cuz they have been in aa 10-30 years are really sad people who harm others with their lies that they preach, because they have told them so many times they believe themselves. I think it is funny you cutting down your own aa grapevine advice or is it another joke for a solution? Maybe you should read more aa material instead of assuming w/o research like the sad-winners aa members do. Repress your anger; & go to more mtgs.

[humyepright]

I like the last one: AA will completely destroy you and then try blame you for the damages they inflict on you. AA teaches nothing realistic or healthy about having honest, pure, unselfish, love motives or intentions. The old-timers have nothing of value to offer that has anything to do with addiction. It is an endless circle of mind-games. Guru's want 2 things: money & power over people. AA will illogically control you & sentence you to death & insanity if you leave. The AA msg is full of lies.

[LeonardoFilms]

Great work. I especially loved steps 1,3,7 and 8.

The song fit perfect, love STP, 'half the man I used to be', thats seems to be the goal at AA.

"and I drank alittle as well..." Priceless.

[yeesbutt]

Cool. Realistic steps, yet should add some social work / hobbies, get clear about biography, visions for life and practice some coping skills?

[quali8]

Thanks for reminding me exactly why I need to stay clear of AA.

And people continue to ignore that AA behaves like a cult!

This is the typical abusive tactics AA displays when faced with the reality that not everyone who gets treatment or changes their behaviour need to do it via their precious AA. How do they get away with it?

[Casey4765]

Great song Jimmy! I went to high school with the drummer (Eric Kretz)