we all trust, that Monica grunted is one of the dark side in history! for sure,, but we must respect for steffi Graf passion, attitude, human being, personality,,she make tennis more power, more speed, and even more stronger,, Till now we can see clearly how many people love her,, and still standing next to her as her Fans. i don't want to say about her carrier or how many grand slam her claimed, it was make some people mad and jealously,,just see how wonderful person she is.:-)
artsking1 : I think you are fagot and very jealously , you must respect for someone who better great attitude than you.record and history in tennis will answer : Steffi Graf 22 Grand slam single tittled,is more then half " from your beloved seles,, H2H 10-5.. what's unfair for seles? stabbing? grunted?fagot? or what??
Navratilova is the best player ever for my money. Second is between Graf and Margaret Court... and I am tempted to go with Margaret Court.
And for people who waffle about how Graf was beating Seles, I wonder how many of you actually were there, because it was Seles who was the dominant player at the time when she was stabbed. You can take your stats and shove them, she was the one to beat not Graf. And the stabbing vastly improved her record.
Without a crystal ball, the best we can do is look at the situation:
Monica won all slams except W. in 1991 and 1992. Just prior to the stabbing she beat Graf in the Australian in 1993. She was going into the French as a 3 time consecutive champion. According to wiki, from 1991 to 1993 she had a 55-1 win-loss GS record. Right after the stabbing, Graf took the next 4 slams including the French. 3 more in 1995, again including the French. You honestly think Seles was done?
We actually only KNOW one thing for Sure......Seles was better than Graf pre stabbing....she was number one, and holder of 4 out of the 5 major titles, having beaten Graf 3-1 in slam finals and taken her number one, easily.
"Steffi was better in 1993-96 than in 1991/92 (all stats show this)."
I already replied to this. Those stats are tainted by the fact that THERE WAS NO SELES.
My argument was that Graf's record would not have been as good. I never said she would not have won any slams or tours, nor even that Seles would maintain her dominance (though I personally believe she would have). My only point was Graf's record looks a lot better than it would have done. To deny this is absurd.
I also just noticed that someone else pretty much made the case for Seles on another video for you. So it seems that you do in fact get your question answered, and quite abundantly so from what I can see just by looking at a few vids. Unfortunately, you seem to just ignore ever counter point, move to another video, and start over.
I made no mistakes, because I made no exptrapolation. Just an observation that removing either one of two very close rivals would benefit the other. Add to this the fact that Seles was even able to win a slam after her comeback - when she was a pale shadow of herself - and I believe it puts me on rock solid ground.
But do you really want to try to throw that one at me when you gave me a statistic that only 20% of 3 time winners win again? Since 1945 no less lol.
And yes, every player suffers setbacks. However, sometimes those setbacks are so great that they are more noteworthy than others. E.g. Ayrton Senna dying in 1994 is an example of about as huge a setback as you can get. It beats e.g. Schumacher's broken leg in the late 90s or early 2000s.
Seles being stabbed and removed from the game as a freaking teenager, never to return to form again, beats the bejeesus out of the examples you gave me.
You assume that Seles would have kept her form without the stabbing.
In spite of her eating disorder problems and her father dying from cancer.
BTW, there are many, many examples of teenage sensations who didn't live up to fans' expectationgs in later years. As a matter of fact most of these players didn't (eg. Austin, Jaeger, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis).
And you assume that right after beating Graf in the Australian, Seles would have stopped winning any more tournaments? Coincidentally right at the same time as the stabbing.
Again, and for the last time, I never claimed she would continue with that level of dominance, nor that she would win all the slams, merely that Graf's record would have looked a good deal worse.
As for your question, its absurd. I assumed you did not mean it literally. Let me get my crystal ball...
No, Seles would not have stopped winning tournaments. But perhaps she would have won FO 94, Wim 94 and AO 95?
But perhaps Steffi would not have lost FO 90 to Seles if there hadn't been those humiliating stories in the tabloids in the weeks before? And perhaps Steffi would not have lost to Coetzer in FO 97 if her knee hadn't fell apart?
Steffi has proven again and again that she certainly was capable of winning at all slams. And she has proven again and again that she could beat Seles
Please, HomoHoffie, the only " dreamgirl" on Youtube is YOU, posting under "grafGirl" and posting Youtube videos of.....(gulp and laugh....) Women's Ice Skating.....How delightful, Bitch!
Please, HomoHoffie, the only " dreamgirl" on Youtube is YOU, posting under "grafGirl" and posting Youtube videos of.....(gulp and laugh....) Women's Ice Skating.....How delightful, Bitch!
Of course she could beat Seles... just like Seles could beat her. It was a fairly even match, with Seles being more in form during those years.
As I said before, every athlete goes through problems, but what happened to Seles was of a considerably greater magnitude. I think most reasonable people would agree.
Graf beat Seles 3 times in 1989 when Seles was only 15 and barely a factor on the tour. Then in 1990 Seles started winning title after title, and between 1990-1993 Seles had a 4-3 record against Graf including 3-1 in grandslam finals. That shows that Monica clearly was no.1 and Graf was no.2 even in their head-to-head, not to mention that Seles won the last 3 australian, 3 french, 2 us open and 3 wta championship & even made the Wimbledon final despite the grunting issue. Seles #1, Graf #2.
Seles was superior. At 19, Seles was the Greatest Teen Phenom in Open Era Tennis History. By the time Seles had won 7 slams, Graf had only won 3...same goes for Evert, Hingis, Austin.....etc etc.....and Seles had stiffer competition, namely Graf.....
Seles also defeated Graf at 3 out of 4 GS slam Finals, and beaten Graf 2/3 times they played. and 4 out of the last 7, ending Grafs 66 match win streak.
In every way, Seles was superior. A shame about the stabbing.
Seles was superior. At 19, Seles was the Greatest Teen Phenom in Open Era Tennis History. By the time Seles had won 7 slams, Graf had only won 3...same goes for Evert, Hingis, Austin.....etc etc.....and Seles had stiffer competition, namely Graf.....
Seles also defeated Graf at 3 out of 4 GS slam Finals, and beaten Graf 2/3 times they played. and 4 out of the last 7, ending Grafs 66 match win streak.
In every way, Seles was superior. A shame about the stabbing.
"Steffi is definitely the greatest women's player of all time."
(Billie Jean King, 1999)
"When someone asks me who was the greatest player I've ever seen in the last 25 years, I'd say Steffi Graf -- with no hesitation." (Chris Evert, 2004)
No one could touch Chris on clay in her day. Graf and Seles had their moments, with Seles cruelly having her prime time taken away from her. Martina could play on clay (82 and 84) but Chris was such a great competitor on the red stuff and her 125 match winning streak is evidence of that. No one will even get close!
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Heninwarrior is right though. The 70s field on clay was the shittiest clay court field ever. Graf, Seles, heck even Navratilova of the 80s (if she avoided an ugly choke like the one vs Horvath), could have all had 125 match win streak in their primes vs that joke clay field too.
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2/2 ...
"Despite her age handicap (she was giving away the best part of 13 years), Navratilova won nine of her 18 matches against the German, five of their nine grand slam meetings and, at 34, defeated her younger rival 7-6, 6-7, 6-4 in their last slam meeting in the semi-finals of the 1991 US Open. Navratilova was the ultimate champion."
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1/2 "There are some who claim that Graf... is the finest womens player in history.
I have to disagree; for me, Navratilova reigns supreme as the greatest sportswoman of all-time. I will not bombard you with the myriad facts and figures but consider her private rivalry with Graf...
Martina's achievement was only in wimbledon but we're talkin aboout here the achivements in 4 majors grandslams which steffi has won at least 4 of each.. steffi had 22 grandslams winning 4 of each major slams and until today no one else come close to her even in male record and besides she won golden slam by winning 4 majors in a year and martina never won in the same year.. needless to say she's the greates woman player of all time and even sampras and federer said that too..
Never compare steffi graf to margaret court, martina navratoliva and chris evert coz she won 4 of each grandslams and nobody could ever break that in women's tennis.. needless to say why she was chosen as "tennis player of the century"... women's tennis was so boring without her playing..
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Martina has far more records that Steffi ever had -- most wins at majors (she had 18 grand slam wins), longest winning streak, most tournament wins -- and those are just for singles. Steffi is a great champion, but she never came close to Martina's achievements.
And BTW, you said Steffi was chosen "tennis player of the century." You failed to note that is by a small group assembled by the AP. Tennis Magazine named Martina the greatest women's player from 1965 to 2005. Numerous commentators say she is the greatest ever. You say Steffi's 16 grand slam titles can't be matched. I think Martina's 18 does that and more, along with her record for most singles titles, most weeks at #1 (not to mention holding every doubles and mixed doubles record that exists).
Martina's achievement was only in wimbledon but we're talkin aboout here the achivements in 4 majors grandslams which steffi has won at least 4 of each.. steffi had 22 grandslams winning 4 of each major slams and until today no one else come close to her even in male record and besides she won golden slam by winning 4 majors in a year and martina never won in the same year.. needless to say she's the greates woman player of all time and even sampras and federer said that too..
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You need to get your facts straight. Martina won every single grand slam. She also won four in a row -- in a single year, though they weren't in the same calendar year (as though that makes a darn bit of difference). You ignore the fact that she won the most singles titles of anyone by far, spent the most number of weeks at number one by far and had the greatest success in doubles and mixed doubles. Most commentators I have read say Martina was best so "needless to say," she is the greatest.
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I wonder how many of these records Graf would have had if one of her rabid fans (over whom Graf admittedly had no control) hadn't stabbed Monica Seles, who was number one in the world at the time and was consistently beating Graf everywhere but Wimbledon? Just curious, since at the time, that was Graf's only real competition. (No one ever stabbed Chris Evert.) (BTW, just so you know, I love Steffi, too.)
@Hoffenheim08: I love Steffi, but the reality is that Monica had won 7 of 9 slams before she was stabbed. As great as Steffi was, she would not have won nearly as many slams if Monica had not been stabbed.
sabatini in 90,martina in 91 and 92.you wanna get facts well here is a fact for you the australian open final in 93 showed seles was on her way to dominating graf since it was the first time she ever outaced graf 8 aces to grafs 1,it was the first time seles ever overpowered graf because seles was entering her prime something you fail to see and just ignore.
fact is graf was to scared to play seles in grand slam finals cause she knew she would get beat,seles didnt care muchy for smaller tournaments since she was losing to capriati and arantxa and sabatini and then beat those same players a week later in the us or french open,federer does the same thing today when he plays andy murray.
i think graf was scared to play seles at the australian open and her missing the tournament when seles came back proves that to me,also im not buying this crap of graf losing to novotna in 91,you say 6-2 6-1 like graf domintated that match when everyonbe knows seles didnt grunt in that match cause of graf threatening to complain if she did but of course you ignore this fact.
@Hoffenheim08 Sorry, Hoffenheim08, you didn't get the facts right either: In 1989 Steffi only lost two matches in total, won Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open plus Masters and was way ahead in the WTA ranking. Monica's best time was yet to come.
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BTW, it seems that you guys cherry pick the statistics you want to emphasize. You pick number of different grand slams as the measuring stick because Steffi wins that category. But Steffi didn't come close to Martina's 167 singles titles overall. Yet, you gloss over that statistic when it is clearly the most important one. Tennis is about more than winning grand slams.
I have high respect for martina but people in this room already speaks who's really the greatest player and they go for steffi.. steffi and martina areboth great champions.. steffi doesn't need to prove her greatness.. monica returned in 1995 after the stab in 1993 and yet steffi still dominates her.. monica shoul have at least the courage to beat graf and she was beaten by graf in 95-96 US open..
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I am utterly shocked that someone could have so little sensitivity for a brutal stabbing that the person expects the victim to come back the same person as she was before. I think you should volunteer your time to work with victims of serious crimes. This might give you a more realisitc perspective.
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That's a bald assertion by you. Most experts I have read rank Martina number one. Most fans I've spoken with rank Martina number one. And most players who have spoken out, including Steffi, rank Martina number one.
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Those statements are absolutely false and are just statements you made up. I don't know if you hold some title somewhere, but just because you say something doesn't make that something true.
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Many. I just did a five-second Google search and found an article by Pakistani sports analyst, Munir Ahmed, who wrote: "Known for her serve and volley game, and facing some of the toughest opposition of her generation, Martina Navratilova has to be the greatest woman tennis player ever."
I'll be happy to perform additional five-second Google searches, if you'd like.
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BBC-Online reports: "Martina Navratilova is unquestionably one of the greatest sportswomen in history, and has a strong claim to the title of greatest female tennis player of all time."
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You started saying that no one outside the U.S. held this view. Now, you're reduced to nitpicking at magazine covers and attacking sovereign nations.
European sports commentator, Jonathon Hardcastle recently wrote: "Martina Navratilova is widely regarded as the greatest female tennis player in the history of the game."
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Christopher Goldsmith of the UK wrote: "When deciding on the best female tennis player of all time, there was only one contender - Martina Navratilova....Navratilova is a true great and has a CV which is difficult to both comprehend and be beaten by future stars. Martina is definitely the BEST player of all time."
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On December 31, 1999, the Daily Telegraph of the United Kingdom chose Martina as the "Greatest Sportswoman of the Century." And I have focused only on non-U.S. commentary since you seem to hold American opinion in disdain.
I think the point has been made, and eventually people are going to get irritated if I continue. There are countless additional non-U.S. experts who feel the same. But to avoid being "banned" for repetition, I'll stop now.
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Navratilova has just won an international poll for greatest female Wimbledon champion ever, ahead of Graf.
The International Tennis Federation calls her "the most dominant player in the sport." The International Tennis Hall of Fame rates her "arguably the greatest player of all time." Graf herself has said Martina is "the uncontested No.1".
So, yes, she has a "strong claim to the title of greatest female tennis player of all time" (BBC) and is very widely regarded as such.
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Point taken - I didn't realise she had to beg for votes! Not surprising, she is less popular than Graf, though she does have the best record of all players at Wimbledon.
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TMR Sports, in ranking the best sports figures of all time, recently wrote: "There can be little argument that Martina Navratilova is the greatest womens tennis player of all time. There may even be some legitimate argument that she is the greatest tennis player of all time, but thats another argument for another day."
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Navi has record 9 Wimbledons, the top slam
Record 8 end of year tour championships
Record 6 consecutive grand slams
Record win: loss season (4 of top 6 seasons)
Record match winning streak (3 of top 6 streaks)
Most dominant 5-year stretch in open era
Record total singles titles (60 more than Graf!)
She leads Graf 5-4 in slam h2h
She's also the only player in the open era to win the triple crown and grand slam boxed set, making her easily the most complete exponent of the game in modern times.
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I take it your last comment was intended to be sarcastic. You obviously know little about the IOC. It is one of the most politically corrupt international organizations in the world. I can't imagine that organization picking someone as controversial as Martina as their number one no matter what the statistics showed. Trusting the judgment of the IOC is like trusting a third world country's junta.
i love it when people say Steffi is the greatest ever...coz for me she is the greatest ever...better than martina and chris. 10 yrs after her retirement i still missed her on court and still looking back on the sleepless nights i had when steffi is playing live. i love her.
Venus is a tall girl and cant bend very low to play the low Graf slice, plus a lot of the times at the net, Venus expected a slow slice off the Graf backhand, but got a topspin backhand instead and was caught offguard..
I've seen a lot of tennis matches and most of the matches between Graf and Navratilova one of them wasn't playing at their best. I've seen 4 matches when they were playing their best. 1989 US Open Final Graf d. Navratilova 3-6,7-5,6-1. 1992 European Indoors Final Graf d. Navratilova 2-6,7-5,7-5. US Open 1991 Semis Navratilova d. Graf 7-6,6-7,6-4. 1993 Japan Semis Navratilova d. Graf 6-3,3-6,6-3. When they are both playing well little separates them.
yes i am sure Graf def Sabatini in the semis 3-6,6-4,6-1 and Navratilova def Garrison 7-6,6-2. I remember because I set the VCR to record and I had to call home because the men's doubles went long and had to ask somebody else to rec the last set of Graf and Sabatini. 1986 final Navratilova d. Sukova 6-3,6-2. 1987 Navratilova d. Graf 7-6,6-1. 1988 Graf d. Sabatini 6-3,3-6,6-1. 1989 Graf d. Navratilova 3-6,7-5,6-1. 1990 Sabatini d. Graf 6-2,7-6.
The thing one must never forget is: Graf and Evert were great singles players, but Navratilova did it all - Singles, Doubles and Mixed. So, if the question is "Who's the greatest woman tennis player of all time?" it's really only a contest between Margaret Smith Court and Martina Navratilova.
I would agree. Which is perhaps why Steffi Graf said of Martina Navratilova: "''For me she is the uncontested No. 1; she has left a mark on the sport like no one else'' (NY Times, 18th Aug 1999)
Steffi Graf's greatest match was not that against Seles, Navratilova, Evert or Hingis.
It was the QF match at Wimbledon 1999 when a hamstring-injured Steffi Graf demolished spring-chicken Venus Williams who serve-and-volleyed effectively that day.
An old woman beating a powerful teenager to a pulp.
What are you talking about. Venus Williams made too many errors in that match. She did the same thing in 1998 against Novotna. I think Steffi is probably the best thinker on court. She's won so many matches when she's played poorly. It is the reason she gets out of so many matches. Williams was going for too much and Graf saw that. Graf was more patient. Smart! Not the greatest by far though.
At Wimbledon Graf's best match was 1992 Final against Seles 6-2,6-1. We saw a lot of great 3 set matches from her but I don't think she played at her best but she managed to win them because she used her smarts and determination.
About that Steffi-Venus match at the 99 Wimbledon... watch the third set again and you will see how Venus just couldnt handle Steffi's change of pace... it might look to you as if Venus is making an error, but check out the fact that most of the errors came when she had to deal with Steffi's knifing backhand slices,
But I'd just point out to the grafanatics here that Martina has by far the best record of any player at this tournament (considered the fifth most important event outside the slams). Martina took the title a record 8 times, including 5 in a row. She reached the finals 13 times between 1975 and 1992, an unprecedented feat. (She also won 11 doubles crowns here, 6 and 4 in a row). Steffi won the title 5 times in total.
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It's a close-run thing but I think Navratilova did enough: record 167 singles titles, record 6 slams in a row, record 9 Wimbledon singles titles, record winning streak ( 3 of top 6), best win:loss percentage ever for a season ( 2 of top 3), 5-4 up against Graf in slams H2H, grand slam boxed set of all titles, and don't get me started on doubles!
She reached her first grand slam finals in '75 and last in '94, playing and winning against greats over almost two decades: that's GOAT.
I AGREE that Evert had powerful groundstrokes that were hit harder than navratilovas and if her serve had been improved she would have beaten martina a lot more look at u.s. 84 final 85 wimbledon final australian 85 wimb 87 88 were al close 3 sets.
In the next year, Monica hit 16 yrs of age and took control of the tennis world from 1990-1993 until the stabbing. In that span, she won 8 slams (7 of the last 8 she entered), the last 3 year end championships, 4-3 over Graf including 3-1 in slam finals, 2-0 in slams against Navratilova, and even made the final of Wimbledon in her 3rd attempt. Everything then stopped because of the stabbing that changed her forever and Graf took control of the tennis world again. Women's tennis history sucks.
you're right Seles' career was stopped in its tracks, wonder what could have been but Graf was not the same player here as she was 90 - 93, her confindence had vanished due to the scandals in the media concerning her father and she struggled to find the form of 87-89, wonder if Graf would have won even more grand slams had that not happened
Don't forget though that the speed of the game changed - Graf had a lot more pace coming back at her off the ground from Seles and others than Navratilova could ever muster.
Chris did not hit harder than MN, give me a break. Chris had precision but not pace in her shots. The reason MN was able to stay competitive with Steffi longer than Chris was because of her net game and the fact that she was a harder hitter with more aggression.
I said that Chris's groundstrokes were hit with more pace than Martina's--everybody knows this. Maybe this proves that it isn't just all about physical strength--it's also about timing. Chris hit her groundstrokes earlier than Martina, so did Seles. The major difference between Chris and Steffi was the serve, which is why Steffi was able to beat Martina in a Wimbledon final and Chris wasn't.
I had no idea that everybody thinks that Chris hit harder than Martina. All this time I thought there was a consensus that Martina hit harder than Chris. Thanks but I will stick with my opinion of Martina hitting harder than Chris. I've seen too many matches of them to doubt myself on this, but you're more than welcome to think otherwise.
you are absolutely right, Chris herself has said on many occasions that Martina overpowered her and that's why she dominated their rivalry in the 80's.
First, off, love all of the Big 3. Chris definately hit the ball harder than Martina off her backhand. Martina off the forehand. Watch the 85 or 86 French final to see what kind of power Chris could generate (agurable two of the best matches she ever played)
That's my impression too. Chris' backhand was lethal and probably hit harder than Martina's, which was mainly sliced. Martina's serve was obviously more powerful and, I think, her forehand. Where Martina really scored over Chris was in her speed of foot and quick reactions round the net, not speed of shot so much.
Martina's groundies were also a huge part in beating Evert. Unlike any other server & volleyers (like Pam Shriver), Martina could really hang around the baseline against Chris and knew when to come in and finish points off at the net. The French Open finals that Martina played (84-87) showcased Martina's solid ground stroking. And her topspin backhand passes (or sometimes cross court rally) were also hard hit (this was fully displayed against Chris at the '87 French semis) and it's single handed
True. Martina was a complete player and she couldn't have won against Chris on clay without a very solid back-court game. I wish she'd used her topspin backhand more, it was a great shot in the mid-80s. The point I wanted to make was that Martina didn't just overpower Chris with hard hitting, it was a combination of athleticism, speed, court craft, brilliant shot-making - and yes, very solid groundstrokes.
Doesn't Chris have an advantage over Martina on clay? Can you take queen of clay away from Chris? I'm not sure. Her record is better than Martina's and Graf's on clay, isn't it? Anyone know?
Oh definitely Chris is better than Martina and Steffi on clay, she's the best slow court player ever imo. Chris won record 7 French Opens and had a record unbeaten 6 year streak on clay of 125 consecutive matches or something incredible. I still give the edge to Martina overall, taking all their records and h2h into account but Chris is indisputably queen of clay.
Yeah so based on that Hingis would be the 5th greatest clay courter of the Open Era even though she NEVER won a French Open, couldnt even beat Majoli in a French Open final, and was completely owned by the likes Conchita Martinez and Capriati on clay. Hence I think the problem with that is obvious.
Also since when did tennis just start in the Open Era. Wills, Lenglen, Connolly are among the greatest clay courters ever irregardless if they were Open Era or not.
we all trust, that Monica grunted is one of the dark side in history! for sure,, but we must respect for steffi Graf passion, attitude, human being, personality,,she make tennis more power, more speed, and even more stronger,, Till now we can see clearly how many people love her,, and still standing next to her as her Fans. i don't want to say about her carrier or how many grand slam her claimed, it was make some people mad and jealously,,just see how wonderful person she is.:-)
manforU100 7 months ago
Staffi Graf is many many times better than Serena Black Shit Williams.
beavertown2006 10 months ago
artsking1 : I think you are fagot and very jealously , you must respect for someone who better great attitude than you.record and history in tennis will answer : Steffi Graf 22 Grand slam single tittled,is more then half " from your beloved seles,, H2H 10-5.. what's unfair for seles? stabbing? grunted?fagot? or what??
manforU100 1 year ago
@manforU100
Yes, he is gay. You can clearly see that from his posts (and his name!!!!). But what is wrong with that?
Wrong of course is his pathological hate for Steffi Graf.
Hoffenheim08 8 months ago
Navratilova is the best player ever for my money. Second is between Graf and Margaret Court... and I am tempted to go with Margaret Court.
And for people who waffle about how Graf was beating Seles, I wonder how many of you actually were there, because it was Seles who was the dominant player at the time when she was stabbed. You can take your stats and shove them, she was the one to beat not Graf. And the stabbing vastly improved her record.
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
And which slams would Graf not have won without the stabbing?
It is funny, but I never get an answer to that question ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Without a crystal ball, the best we can do is look at the situation:
Monica won all slams except W. in 1991 and 1992. Just prior to the stabbing she beat Graf in the Australian in 1993. She was going into the French as a 3 time consecutive champion. According to wiki, from 1991 to 1993 she had a 55-1 win-loss GS record. Right after the stabbing, Graf took the next 4 slams including the French. 3 more in 1995, again including the French. You honestly think Seles was done?
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
Of course Seles wasn't done.
But we know three things for sure:
1) Steffi was better in 1993-96 than in 1991/92 (all stats show this).
2) But even in 1991/92 Steffi beat Seles in 3 of 4 matches.
3) Only about 20 percent of 3-time consecutive slam champions were able to win the 4th in a row in women's tennis since 1945.
So what exactly indicated that Seles would have made the finals AND beaten Steffi at FO 93, Wim 93, USO 93 or AO 94?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
We actually only KNOW one thing for Sure......Seles was better than Graf pre stabbing....she was number one, and holder of 4 out of the 5 major titles, having beaten Graf 3-1 in slam finals and taken her number one, easily.
Graf lost the 1990, 1991 and 1992 Us Open
Graf lost the 1990, 1991, and 1992 French Open
Grfa lost the 1991, 1992, and 1993 Aussie Open
Graf lost the 1900, 1991, 1992 WTA Championships.
Seles WON THEM ALL..........these are facts.
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
But how the hell do you think Seles would have beaten Steffi in 1993-95?
Considering that even in 91/92 - when Steffi was definitely worse than 93-95 (all stats prove this) - Steffi won 3 of 4 matches against #1 Seles?
You want to make us believe that Seles with her dad dying of cancer and with her weight problems would have beaten a peak Graf? Don't be asinine ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
STUPID, She had already beaten Graf BADLY in 1993, right before she got stabbed! Did you forget that ?Are you Stupid, Sissy?
Listen, Closet case, i think I have upset you so DEEPLY that you are losing your mind....
LEAVE THE HOUSE, LOSER....it is a brand new year, 2011.....find a boyfriend, get a hobby....
GET A LIFE SISSY!
No one cares anymore.....AND STOP MESSAGING ME, DUMBASS! You MESSAGED ME ON NEW YEARS EVE!
How pathetic!
Move on, Sissy!
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
I have never ever messaged you, fag.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
YOU JUST DID, YOU DUMB SISSY!
GO Away Loser.....everyone hates you...move on, SissyHOMO.......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
I never ever have send you a message, faggie boy.
Until 5 minutes ago.
You are obviously too dumb to know the difference between posting and sending a personal message on YouTube.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
HOW ABOUT THIS SISSY?......
..STOP POSTING TO ME COMPLETELY, You SAD Lonely Closet Case...
Im not interested, Sissy.......MOVE ON.
LOl......
artisking1 1 year ago
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@artisking1
I'm not posting ""to" you, faggie.
But when you post drivel on YouTube for everybody to see then I will be there and put it right.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
"Steffi was better in 1993-96 than in 1991/92 (all stats show this)."
I already replied to this. Those stats are tainted by the fact that THERE WAS NO SELES.
My argument was that Graf's record would not have been as good. I never said she would not have won any slams or tours, nor even that Seles would maintain her dominance (though I personally believe she would have). My only point was Graf's record looks a lot better than it would have done. To deny this is absurd.
alin1975 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Oh, I forgot to add... its funny, I never get an answer to that question :D
alin1975 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
I also just noticed that someone else pretty much made the case for Seles on another video for you. So it seems that you do in fact get your question answered, and quite abundantly so from what I can see just by looking at a few vids. Unfortunately, you seem to just ignore ever counter point, move to another video, and start over.
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
You make one core mistake:
You think you can extrapolate success in sports from past achievements.
Which is BS.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
I made no mistakes, because I made no exptrapolation. Just an observation that removing either one of two very close rivals would benefit the other. Add to this the fact that Seles was even able to win a slam after her comeback - when she was a pale shadow of herself - and I believe it puts me on rock solid ground.
But do you really want to try to throw that one at me when you gave me a statistic that only 20% of 3 time winners win again? Since 1945 no less lol.
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
You make a big thing out of the fact that Seles won 3 AOs and FOs in a row.
Therefore it is necessary to remind you that doesn't mean a lot.
Since only 20 % of women tennis players have managed to win the 4th in row post-WW2.
Everybody benefits from their opponents' misfortunes.
Seles profited extremely from Steffi's slump in 90-92 due to the blackmail scandal.
And again from the Graf tax evasion scandal in 95/96.
And again from Steffi's knee problems in 97-99.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Do you remember how this started?
I said Graf's record was improved by Seles being stabbed. You replied by saying "And which slams would Graf not have won without the stabbing?"
So you see my goal was to show the Seles would very likely have won some more slams and that Grafs record would not be as good.
I did that.
In regards to your use of statistics, I only commented because you complained about extrapolation and then proceeded to use stats from 1945 :)
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
You didn't answer the question which slams Steffi would not have won without the stabbing.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
And yes, every player suffers setbacks. However, sometimes those setbacks are so great that they are more noteworthy than others. E.g. Ayrton Senna dying in 1994 is an example of about as huge a setback as you can get. It beats e.g. Schumacher's broken leg in the late 90s or early 2000s.
Seles being stabbed and removed from the game as a freaking teenager, never to return to form again, beats the bejeesus out of the examples you gave me.
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
You assume that Seles would have kept her form without the stabbing.
In spite of her eating disorder problems and her father dying from cancer.
BTW, there are many, many examples of teenage sensations who didn't live up to fans' expectationgs in later years. As a matter of fact most of these players didn't (eg. Austin, Jaeger, Sabatini, Capriati, Hingis).
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
And you assume that right after beating Graf in the Australian, Seles would have stopped winning any more tournaments? Coincidentally right at the same time as the stabbing.
Again, and for the last time, I never claimed she would continue with that level of dominance, nor that she would win all the slams, merely that Graf's record would have looked a good deal worse.
As for your question, its absurd. I assumed you did not mean it literally. Let me get my crystal ball...
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
No, Seles would not have stopped winning tournaments. But perhaps she would have won FO 94, Wim 94 and AO 95?
But perhaps Steffi would not have lost FO 90 to Seles if there hadn't been those humiliating stories in the tabloids in the weeks before? And perhaps Steffi would not have lost to Coetzer in FO 97 if her knee hadn't fell apart?
Steffi has proven again and again that she certainly was capable of winning at all slams. And she has proven again and again that she could beat Seles
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
But Steffi didn't just lose in 1990, nor did she just lose the French 1990......SHE LOST ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
1990, 1991, 1992 French Open
1991, 1992, 1993 Aussie Open
1990, 1991, 1992 US Open
1990, 1991, 1992 WTA Championships
No scandals here........who won all these tournaments above?
SELES beat Graf 3 out of 4 slam finals, beating her badly at the 1993 Aussie Open, their last match before the stabbing....
Facts are facts. Seles was better....no doubt.
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Why lying again?
Steffi beat Seles in 3 slam finals.
And in 5 of 7 matches when Seles was #1. That is the worst record EVER of a #1 player against her main opponent.
And Steffi has 7 Wimbledon titles while Seles has only 0. Steffi is far ahead in USO and FO titles as well.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Pre stabbing, Seles beat Graf 3 out 4 Grand Slam finals.......totally dominant over Graf.......
Graf won 25% of her slam Final matches vs Seles before the stabbing...
LOL......
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Sanchez beat Steffi in 2 of 3 slam finals in 1987-94.
So?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Stupid....SELES BEAT GRAF IN 3 out of 4 Slam Finals, in 2.5 YEARS.....what's a matter whimp, you can't deal with that?
Right?
Oh, and Seles took away Graf's number one...for 2.5 year!
Lets not forget that!
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Deal with???
You seem to have problems with Steffi being 13 slam titles ahead of you dream girl, faggie ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
Then WHY do you keep posting to me Sissy?
Here is some advice LOSER....STOP POSTING TO ME....for Gods sake loser, you posted to me on NEW YEARS EVE, Christmas Eve, and New Years Day!...
GET A LIFE LOSER......
artisking1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Hoffenheim08
Then WHY do you keep posting to me Sissy?
Here is some advice LOSER....STOP POSTING TO ME....for Gods sake loser, you posted to me on NEW YEARS EVE, Christmas Eve, and New Years Day!...
GET A LIFE LOSER........
artisking1 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Please, HomoHoffie, the only " dreamgirl" on Youtube is YOU, posting under "grafGirl" and posting Youtube videos of.....(gulp and laugh....) Women's Ice Skating.....How delightful, Bitch!
LOL, you sad Sissy......
artisking1 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Hoffenheim08
Please, HomoHoffie, the only " dreamgirl" on Youtube is YOU, posting under "grafGirl" and posting Youtube videos of.....(gulp and laugh....) Women's Ice Skating.....How delightful, Bitch!
LOL, you sad Sissy........
artisking1 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
Stupid....SELES BEAT GRAF IN 3 out of 4 Slam Finals, in 2.5 YEARS.....what's a matter whimp, you can't deal with that??
Right?
Oh, and Seles took away Graf's number one...for 2.5 year!
Lets not forget that!
artisking1 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Of course she could beat Seles... just like Seles could beat her. It was a fairly even match, with Seles being more in form during those years.
As I said before, every athlete goes through problems, but what happened to Seles was of a considerably greater magnitude. I think most reasonable people would agree.
alin1975 1 year ago
@alin1975
LOL....yes, that is the pattern.....Hoffie lives in denial of MANY THINGS.
Sadly.
artisking1 1 year ago
Graf beat Seles 3 times in 1989 when Seles was only 15 and barely a factor on the tour. Then in 1990 Seles started winning title after title, and between 1990-1993 Seles had a 4-3 record against Graf including 3-1 in grandslam finals. That shows that Monica clearly was no.1 and Graf was no.2 even in their head-to-head, not to mention that Seles won the last 3 australian, 3 french, 2 us open and 3 wta championship & even made the Wimbledon final despite the grunting issue. Seles #1, Graf #2.
whfan007 1 year ago
And monica was de grunted at 92 wimbledon. She had just beat navratilova the best grass player ever. Monica would have won.
TripleAxel1991 1 year ago
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@TripleAxel1991
Its true...
Seles was superior. At 19, Seles was the Greatest Teen Phenom in Open Era Tennis History. By the time Seles had won 7 slams, Graf had only won 3...same goes for Evert, Hingis, Austin.....etc etc.....and Seles had stiffer competition, namely Graf.....
Seles also defeated Graf at 3 out of 4 GS slam Finals, and beaten Graf 2/3 times they played. and 4 out of the last 7, ending Grafs 66 match win streak.
In every way, Seles was superior. A shame about the stabbing.
artisking 1 year ago
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@TripleAxel1991 ..
Its true...
Seles was superior. At 19, Seles was the Greatest Teen Phenom in Open Era Tennis History. By the time Seles had won 7 slams, Graf had only won 3...same goes for Evert, Hingis, Austin.....etc etc.....and Seles had stiffer competition, namely Graf.....
Seles also defeated Graf at 3 out of 4 GS slam Finals, and beaten Graf 2/3 times they played. and 4 out of the last 7, ending Grafs 66 match win streak.
In every way, Seles was superior. A shame about the stabbing.
artisking 1 year ago
Your Insane. Steffi was being dominated by seles
TripleAxel1991 1 year ago
@TripleAxel1991
Yes, that's why Seles in her two best years ever (1992/92) won a staggering 25 percent of her matches against Steffi ...
:-)))
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
Steffi was all class and is a great lady. A very caring and sensitive person.
binki61 1 year ago
Monica is the best ever.. The only reason steffi won all of the titles was because monica was stabbed!
TripleAxel1991 1 year ago
@TripleAxel1991
Seles?
The girl who was 1-3 H2H against her main opponent in her two best years ever?
Who let said opponent win all Wimbledon titles in that period? One by getting thrashed herself with 26 16?
Who wasn't able to complete a full season with less than 5 losses?
"TripleAxel1991" - you were a little bit too young in 1991/92, apparently ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
Graf was a soulless robot, like Lendl on the men's side.
cythera4 1 year ago
@cythera4
Which player cried after more won slam finals than Steffi?
She was calm during play, though. That was what her opponents and her detractors like you feared ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
All great players (B. Jean-King, Graf, Evert, Seles) said , that only
one woman can be the greatest ever: Martina Navratilova.
There is no doubt about it.
zitomusic1 1 year ago
"Steffi is definitely the greatest women's player of all time."
(Billie Jean King, 1999)
"When someone asks me who was the greatest player I've ever seen in the last 25 years, I'd say Steffi Graf -- with no hesitation." (Chris Evert, 2004)
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
Billie said the same for martina,
however this is such a silly debate...
they are all great, and who is the greatest is just the matter of perspective...
u r german right??
prdunj 1 year ago
only Graf won ?
No no no !
navratilova2 1 year ago
I forgot Henin! She also deserves a mention on clay. Such a great player with opportunities in 2010 to really put some stamp on the record books....
Alwyn38 2 years ago
No one could touch Chris on clay in her day. Graf and Seles had their moments, with Seles cruelly having her prime time taken away from her. Martina could play on clay (82 and 84) but Chris was such a great competitor on the red stuff and her 125 match winning streak is evidence of that. No one will even get close!
Alwyn38 2 years ago
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Heninwarrior is right though. The 70s field on clay was the shittiest clay court field ever. Graf, Seles, heck even Navratilova of the 80s (if she avoided an ugly choke like the one vs Horvath), could have all had 125 match win streak in their primes vs that joke clay field too.
grafgirl27 2 years ago
5 sets?????
almeida062 2 years ago
Between 1984 and 1998 the championship final was a best of five match. I dont know why they changed it?
saschamen76 2 years ago
@saschamen76 for some tournaments not all, the majors were stilll best of three
DavidKTMS 1 year ago
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@saschamen76, should always have been a 5 setter.
APH1991 1 year ago
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2/2 ...
"Despite her age handicap (she was giving away the best part of 13 years), Navratilova won nine of her 18 matches against the German, five of their nine grand slam meetings and, at 34, defeated her younger rival 7-6, 6-7, 6-4 in their last slam meeting in the semi-finals of the 1991 US Open. Navratilova was the ultimate champion."
The National Newspaper
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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The "National" Newspaper.
Right ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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LOL. Well, you were asking for non-US commentators!
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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1/2 "There are some who claim that Graf... is the finest womens player in history.
I have to disagree; for me, Navratilova reigns supreme as the greatest sportswoman of all-time. I will not bombard you with the myriad facts and figures but consider her private rivalry with Graf...
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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Martina's achievement was only in wimbledon but we're talkin aboout here the achivements in 4 majors grandslams which steffi has won at least 4 of each.. steffi had 22 grandslams winning 4 of each major slams and until today no one else come close to her even in male record and besides she won golden slam by winning 4 majors in a year and martina never won in the same year.. needless to say she's the greates woman player of all time and even sampras and federer said that too..
linchpin7 2 years ago 10
Never compare steffi graf to margaret court, martina navratoliva and chris evert coz she won 4 of each grandslams and nobody could ever break that in women's tennis.. needless to say why she was chosen as "tennis player of the century"... women's tennis was so boring without her playing..
linchpin7 2 years ago 3
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Martina has far more records that Steffi ever had -- most wins at majors (she had 18 grand slam wins), longest winning streak, most tournament wins -- and those are just for singles. Steffi is a great champion, but she never came close to Martina's achievements.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
And BTW, you said Steffi was chosen "tennis player of the century." You failed to note that is by a small group assembled by the AP. Tennis Magazine named Martina the greatest women's player from 1965 to 2005. Numerous commentators say she is the greatest ever. You say Steffi's 16 grand slam titles can't be matched. I think Martina's 18 does that and more, along with her record for most singles titles, most weeks at #1 (not to mention holding every doubles and mixed doubles record that exists).
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Martina's achievement was only in wimbledon but we're talkin aboout here the achivements in 4 majors grandslams which steffi has won at least 4 of each.. steffi had 22 grandslams winning 4 of each major slams and until today no one else come close to her even in male record and besides she won golden slam by winning 4 majors in a year and martina never won in the same year.. needless to say she's the greates woman player of all time and even sampras and federer said that too..
linchpin7 2 years ago 4
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You need to get your facts straight. Martina won every single grand slam. She also won four in a row -- in a single year, though they weren't in the same calendar year (as though that makes a darn bit of difference). You ignore the fact that she won the most singles titles of anyone by far, spent the most number of weeks at number one by far and had the greatest success in doubles and mixed doubles. Most commentators I have read say Martina was best so "needless to say," she is the greatest.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
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Graf had the most weeks as #1 (377), not Navratilova.
Graf had 22 slams, Navi only 18.
Graf has the Grand Slam, Navi not.
Graf has 8 years as year's-end #1, Navi only 7.
Graf has won each slam at least 4 times, Navi only 2.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I wonder how many of these records Graf would have had if one of her rabid fans (over whom Graf admittedly had no control) hadn't stabbed Monica Seles, who was number one in the world at the time and was consistently beating Graf everywhere but Wimbledon? Just curious, since at the time, that was Graf's only real competition. (No one ever stabbed Chris Evert.) (BTW, just so you know, I love Steffi, too.)
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Yes, Seles was number one in the world at the time.
No, she was not consistently beating Graf everywhere.
Actually (that in in real life, not in Seles fantasy land) Graf was winning most of her matches against Seles at the time.
What about SIMPLY getting the facts right? Is that SO difficult for you?
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago 8
@Hoffenheim08: I love Steffi, but the reality is that Monica had won 7 of 9 slams before she was stabbed. As great as Steffi was, she would not have won nearly as many slams if Monica had not been stabbed.
EmitFlestiKY 1 year ago
@EmitFlestiKY
Winning 7 of 9 slams doesn't say a lot about whether you win the majority of the next slams.
Which slams do you think Graf would not have won without the stabbing? And why?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
you forgot the masters seles wasnt just winning the grand slams she was also winning the masters every year you fool.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Whom did she beat there?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
sabatini in 90,martina in 91 and 92.you wanna get facts well here is a fact for you the australian open final in 93 showed seles was on her way to dominating graf since it was the first time she ever outaced graf 8 aces to grafs 1,it was the first time seles ever overpowered graf because seles was entering her prime something you fail to see and just ignore.
jayfey77 1 year ago
winning7 of the last 9 grand slams and the masters every year doesnt say whether you will win the majority of the next slams?what are you retarded.
jayfey77 1 year ago
fact is graf was to scared to play seles in grand slam finals cause she knew she would get beat,seles didnt care muchy for smaller tournaments since she was losing to capriati and arantxa and sabatini and then beat those same players a week later in the us or french open,federer does the same thing today when he plays andy murray.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@jayfey77
Between spring 1990 and fall of 1992 Graf missed 6 of 10 slam finals.
She beat Seles 62 61 in Wimbledon and lost to her 26 63 810 at FO in 1992.
And beat her twice in smaller tournaments in 1991.
At which slam in those years do you think Steffi was "scared" (LOL!) to play Seles?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
i think graf was scared to play seles at the australian open and her missing the tournament when seles came back proves that to me,also im not buying this crap of graf losing to novotna in 91,you say 6-2 6-1 like graf domintated that match when everyonbe knows seles didnt grunt in that match cause of graf threatening to complain if she did but of course you ignore this fact.
jayfey77 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08 Sorry, Hoffenheim08, you didn't get the facts right either: In 1989 Steffi only lost two matches in total, won Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open plus Masters and was way ahead in the WTA ranking. Monica's best time was yet to come.
eastfreeze 1 year ago
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BTW, it seems that you guys cherry pick the statistics you want to emphasize. You pick number of different grand slams as the measuring stick because Steffi wins that category. But Steffi didn't come close to Martina's 167 singles titles overall. Yet, you gloss over that statistic when it is clearly the most important one. Tennis is about more than winning grand slams.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
I have high respect for martina but people in this room already speaks who's really the greatest player and they go for steffi.. steffi and martina areboth great champions.. steffi doesn't need to prove her greatness.. monica returned in 1995 after the stab in 1993 and yet steffi still dominates her.. monica shoul have at least the courage to beat graf and she was beaten by graf in 95-96 US open..
linchpin7 2 years ago 2
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I am utterly shocked that someone could have so little sensitivity for a brutal stabbing that the person expects the victim to come back the same person as she was before. I think you should volunteer your time to work with victims of serious crimes. This might give you a more realisitc perspective.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Most players, experts and fans think otherwise.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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That's a bald assertion by you. Most experts I have read rank Martina number one. Most fans I've spoken with rank Martina number one. And most players who have spoken out, including Steffi, rank Martina number one.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Not even most US experts rank Navi as #1.
Outside of the US no one ranks her as the GOAT.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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Those statements are absolutely false and are just statements you made up. I don't know if you hold some title somewhere, but just because you say something doesn't make that something true.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Which non-US expert thinks that Navi is the greatest ever?
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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Many. I just did a five-second Google search and found an article by Pakistani sports analyst, Munir Ahmed, who wrote: "Known for her serve and volley game, and facing some of the toughest opposition of her generation, Martina Navratilova has to be the greatest woman tennis player ever."
I'll be happy to perform additional five-second Google searches, if you'd like.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Pakistan is a great tennis nation ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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BBC-Online reports: "Martina Navratilova is unquestionably one of the greatest sportswomen in history, and has a strong claim to the title of greatest female tennis player of all time."
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
"Strong claim" - that's lukewarm ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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You started saying that no one outside the U.S. held this view. Now, you're reduced to nitpicking at magazine covers and attacking sovereign nations.
European sports commentator, Jonathon Hardcastle recently wrote: "Martina Navratilova is widely regarded as the greatest female tennis player in the history of the game."
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
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Christopher Goldsmith of the UK wrote: "When deciding on the best female tennis player of all time, there was only one contender - Martina Navratilova....Navratilova is a true great and has a CV which is difficult to both comprehend and be beaten by future stars. Martina is definitely the BEST player of all time."
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
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On December 31, 1999, the Daily Telegraph of the United Kingdom chose Martina as the "Greatest Sportswoman of the Century." And I have focused only on non-U.S. commentary since you seem to hold American opinion in disdain.
I think the point has been made, and eventually people are going to get irritated if I continue. There are countless additional non-U.S. experts who feel the same. But to avoid being "banned" for repetition, I'll stop now.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
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Navratilova has just won an international poll for greatest female Wimbledon champion ever, ahead of Graf.
The International Tennis Federation calls her "the most dominant player in the sport." The International Tennis Hall of Fame rates her "arguably the greatest player of all time." Graf herself has said Martina is "the uncontested No.1".
So, yes, she has a "strong claim to the title of greatest female tennis player of all time" (BBC) and is very widely regarded as such.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Navi won the HSBC poll. Navi is a HSBC ambassador" ...
Nevertheless she trailed Graf until the last day of polling!
When Navi went on air (BBC?) and asked people to please vote for her ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
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Point taken - I didn't realise she had to beg for votes! Not surprising, she is less popular than Graf, though she does have the best record of all players at Wimbledon.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
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TMR Sports, in ranking the best sports figures of all time, recently wrote: "There can be little argument that Martina Navratilova is the greatest womens tennis player of all time. There may even be some legitimate argument that she is the greatest tennis player of all time, but thats another argument for another day."
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
The home page of "tmr sports" features a young woman with a stars-and-stripes bikini today ...
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
Comment removed
saar144 2 years ago
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Navi has record 9 Wimbledons, the top slam
Record 8 end of year tour championships
Record 6 consecutive grand slams
Record win: loss season (4 of top 6 seasons)
Record match winning streak (3 of top 6 streaks)
Most dominant 5-year stretch in open era
Record total singles titles (60 more than Graf!)
She leads Graf 5-4 in slam h2h
She's also the only player in the open era to win the triple crown and grand slam boxed set, making her easily the most complete exponent of the game in modern times.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Steffi was voted tennis player of the century by an international panel chosen by the International Olympic Committee (IOC).
I'd say that beats the U.S. Tennis Magazine - narrowly ...
;-)
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago 2
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I take it your last comment was intended to be sarcastic. You obviously know little about the IOC. It is one of the most politically corrupt international organizations in the world. I can't imagine that organization picking someone as controversial as Martina as their number one no matter what the statistics showed. Trusting the judgment of the IOC is like trusting a third world country's junta.
ErikBWalker 2 years ago
Yes,she is the greatest ever...I love her power and elegance and her great personality...she´s an unforgettable legend without comparison:-)
majesticgraf 2 years ago 2
i love it when people say Steffi is the greatest ever...coz for me she is the greatest ever...better than martina and chris. 10 yrs after her retirement i still missed her on court and still looking back on the sleepless nights i had when steffi is playing live. i love her.
19chikong86 2 years ago 10
the same happens to me. :)
xocolatier 2 years ago 2
The most graceful mover ever.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago
oh and I forgot to mention, Steffi is the greatest ever...;-)
You dont have to agree, thats my opinion (along with many others')...
bilraz 2 years ago
Venus is a tall girl and cant bend very low to play the low Graf slice, plus a lot of the times at the net, Venus expected a slow slice off the Graf backhand, but got a topspin backhand instead and was caught offguard..
bilraz 2 years ago
Awesome match between the two best players ever!
bilraz 2 years ago
wow first time I've ever seen a women's 5 set match
StewNWT 2 years ago
I recorded this match to a CD so I could watch it on the television but it came out awful is there any way for a better picture?
herewegoagain2009 2 years ago
I've seen a lot of tennis matches and most of the matches between Graf and Navratilova one of them wasn't playing at their best. I've seen 4 matches when they were playing their best. 1989 US Open Final Graf d. Navratilova 3-6,7-5,6-1. 1992 European Indoors Final Graf d. Navratilova 2-6,7-5,7-5. US Open 1991 Semis Navratilova d. Graf 7-6,6-7,6-4. 1993 Japan Semis Navratilova d. Graf 6-3,3-6,6-3. When they are both playing well little separates them.
herewegoagain2009 2 years ago 2
I agree. It was also a bit of a generation thing.
Are you sure of the 1989 US Open Final? Was that Graf-Navratilova?
assindiastignani 2 years ago
yes i am sure Graf def Sabatini in the semis 3-6,6-4,6-1 and Navratilova def Garrison 7-6,6-2. I remember because I set the VCR to record and I had to call home because the men's doubles went long and had to ask somebody else to rec the last set of Graf and Sabatini. 1986 final Navratilova d. Sukova 6-3,6-2. 1987 Navratilova d. Graf 7-6,6-1. 1988 Graf d. Sabatini 6-3,3-6,6-1. 1989 Graf d. Navratilova 3-6,7-5,6-1. 1990 Sabatini d. Graf 6-2,7-6.
herewegoagain2009 2 years ago
Thank you so much for your answer and the info.
assindiastignani 2 years ago
The thing one must never forget is: Graf and Evert were great singles players, but Navratilova did it all - Singles, Doubles and Mixed. So, if the question is "Who's the greatest woman tennis player of all time?" it's really only a contest between Margaret Smith Court and Martina Navratilova.
assindiastignani 2 years ago
I would agree. Which is perhaps why Steffi Graf said of Martina Navratilova: "''For me she is the uncontested No. 1; she has left a mark on the sport like no one else'' (NY Times, 18th Aug 1999)
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Steffi Graf's greatest match was not that against Seles, Navratilova, Evert or Hingis.
It was the QF match at Wimbledon 1999 when a hamstring-injured Steffi Graf demolished spring-chicken Venus Williams who serve-and-volleyed effectively that day.
An old woman beating a powerful teenager to a pulp.
acadavos 2 years ago 2
What are you talking about. Venus Williams made too many errors in that match. She did the same thing in 1998 against Novotna. I think Steffi is probably the best thinker on court. She's won so many matches when she's played poorly. It is the reason she gets out of so many matches. Williams was going for too much and Graf saw that. Graf was more patient. Smart! Not the greatest by far though.
herewegoagain2009 2 years ago
At Wimbledon Graf's best match was 1992 Final against Seles 6-2,6-1. We saw a lot of great 3 set matches from her but I don't think she played at her best but she managed to win them because she used her smarts and determination.
herewegoagain2009 2 years ago
About that Steffi-Venus match at the 99 Wimbledon... watch the third set again and you will see how Venus just couldnt handle Steffi's change of pace... it might look to you as if Venus is making an error, but check out the fact that most of the errors came when she had to deal with Steffi's knifing backhand slices,
bilraz 2 years ago 3
Entertaining match and a deserved Graf victory.
But I'd just point out to the grafanatics here that Martina has by far the best record of any player at this tournament (considered the fifth most important event outside the slams). Martina took the title a record 8 times, including 5 in a row. She reached the finals 13 times between 1975 and 1992, an unprecedented feat. (She also won 11 doubles crowns here, 6 and 4 in a row). Steffi won the title 5 times in total.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Navratilova is a good #2 in the GOAT competition.
Has only 18 slams and no grand slam, though.
Hoffenheim08 2 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
It's a close-run thing but I think Navratilova did enough: record 167 singles titles, record 6 slams in a row, record 9 Wimbledon singles titles, record winning streak ( 3 of top 6), best win:loss percentage ever for a season ( 2 of top 3), 5-4 up against Graf in slams H2H, grand slam boxed set of all titles, and don't get me started on doubles!
She reached her first grand slam finals in '75 and last in '94, playing and winning against greats over almost two decades: that's GOAT.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
I AGREE that Evert had powerful groundstrokes that were hit harder than navratilovas and if her serve had been improved she would have beaten martina a lot more look at u.s. 84 final 85 wimbledon final australian 85 wimb 87 88 were al close 3 sets.
iamanabba 2 years ago
Leave the great Joanne Russell alone
kangaroosbraun 3 years ago
I loved JoAnne and Bud together!
RaleighNC306 2 years ago
In the next year, Monica hit 16 yrs of age and took control of the tennis world from 1990-1993 until the stabbing. In that span, she won 8 slams (7 of the last 8 she entered), the last 3 year end championships, 4-3 over Graf including 3-1 in slam finals, 2-0 in slams against Navratilova, and even made the final of Wimbledon in her 3rd attempt. Everything then stopped because of the stabbing that changed her forever and Graf took control of the tennis world again. Women's tennis history sucks.
whfan007 3 years ago
you're right Seles' career was stopped in its tracks, wonder what could have been but Graf was not the same player here as she was 90 - 93, her confindence had vanished due to the scandals in the media concerning her father and she struggled to find the form of 87-89, wonder if Graf would have won even more grand slams had that not happened
Hilly30 2 years ago
Steffi looks like "Dougal" from "The magic roundabout" with her hair down (Pollux - Le Manège enchanté)
markdelaney 3 years ago
Poor JoAnne Russell. Her commentary was as brainless as her play.
brownstony 3 years ago
martina's dress looks like theres a purple underwear on her skirt.
dorker1992 3 years ago
haha, i hadn't noticed, but you're right!
god, it looks awfull.
mrbunny74 3 years ago
Great match - both played very well. Thanks much for posting :)
atlantaguy178 3 years ago
Why do I react to points like I've never seen this match before, hehehe!
Flipboy5 3 years ago 2
I knowthe feeling my dear!! ;-)
riccioforever 3 years ago
I would've liked to hear her speech!
But thanks a lot for the match!
bilraz 3 years ago
I also have to say how differnt Steffi's game was back then. She was a million times better than in the 90's. So aggressive.
DeirdreTox 3 years ago
I know, I don't know what happened to her after she changed her coach (pavel)
infallibleble 3 years ago
Don't forget though that the speed of the game changed - Graf had a lot more pace coming back at her off the ground from Seles and others than Navratilova could ever muster.
Boon3677 3 years ago
True but Martina, with all her strength, should have hit the ball harder than she did. Even Chris hit harder off the ground than Martina did.
brownstony 3 years ago
Chris did not hit harder than MN, give me a break. Chris had precision but not pace in her shots. The reason MN was able to stay competitive with Steffi longer than Chris was because of her net game and the fact that she was a harder hitter with more aggression.
doetim 3 years ago
I said that Chris's groundstrokes were hit with more pace than Martina's--everybody knows this. Maybe this proves that it isn't just all about physical strength--it's also about timing. Chris hit her groundstrokes earlier than Martina, so did Seles. The major difference between Chris and Steffi was the serve, which is why Steffi was able to beat Martina in a Wimbledon final and Chris wasn't.
brownstony 3 years ago
I had no idea that everybody thinks that Chris hit harder than Martina. All this time I thought there was a consensus that Martina hit harder than Chris. Thanks but I will stick with my opinion of Martina hitting harder than Chris. I've seen too many matches of them to doubt myself on this, but you're more than welcome to think otherwise.
doetim 3 years ago
you are absolutely right, Chris herself has said on many occasions that Martina overpowered her and that's why she dominated their rivalry in the 80's.
westcst 3 years ago
First, off, love all of the Big 3. Chris definately hit the ball harder than Martina off her backhand. Martina off the forehand. Watch the 85 or 86 French final to see what kind of power Chris could generate (agurable two of the best matches she ever played)
sftom1970 3 years ago
That's my impression too. Chris' backhand was lethal and probably hit harder than Martina's, which was mainly sliced. Martina's serve was obviously more powerful and, I think, her forehand. Where Martina really scored over Chris was in her speed of foot and quick reactions round the net, not speed of shot so much.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Martina's groundies were also a huge part in beating Evert. Unlike any other server & volleyers (like Pam Shriver), Martina could really hang around the baseline against Chris and knew when to come in and finish points off at the net. The French Open finals that Martina played (84-87) showcased Martina's solid ground stroking. And her topspin backhand passes (or sometimes cross court rally) were also hard hit (this was fully displayed against Chris at the '87 French semis) and it's single handed
topjazz69 2 years ago
True. Martina was a complete player and she couldn't have won against Chris on clay without a very solid back-court game. I wish she'd used her topspin backhand more, it was a great shot in the mid-80s. The point I wanted to make was that Martina didn't just overpower Chris with hard hitting, it was a combination of athleticism, speed, court craft, brilliant shot-making - and yes, very solid groundstrokes.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Doesn't Chris have an advantage over Martina on clay? Can you take queen of clay away from Chris? I'm not sure. Her record is better than Martina's and Graf's on clay, isn't it? Anyone know?
dattexas 2 years ago
Oh definitely Chris is better than Martina and Steffi on clay, she's the best slow court player ever imo. Chris won record 7 French Opens and had a record unbeaten 6 year streak on clay of 125 consecutive matches or something incredible. I still give the edge to Martina overall, taking all their records and h2h into account but Chris is indisputably queen of clay.
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Martina isnt even a top 9 clay courter all time:
1. Chris Evert
2. Steffi Graf
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Justine Henin
5. Helen Wills Moody
6. Monica Seles
7. Maureen Connolly
8. Margaret Court
9. Sanchez Vicario
heninwarrior 2 years ago
Top 6 open era clay court win:loss career records
1. Chris Evert 316:20 94.1%
2. Steffi Graf 268:29 90.2%
3. Justine Henin 122:19 86.5%
4. Monica Seles 142:25 85.0%
5. Martina Hingis 109:25 81.3%
6. Martina Navratilova 202:47 81.1%
Nicklas4500 2 years ago
Yeah so based on that Hingis would be the 5th greatest clay courter of the Open Era even though she NEVER won a French Open, couldnt even beat Majoli in a French Open final, and was completely owned by the likes Conchita Martinez and Capriati on clay. Hence I think the problem with that is obvious.
Also since when did tennis just start in the Open Era. Wills, Lenglen, Connolly are among the greatest clay courters ever irregardless if they were Open Era or not.
heninwarrior 2 years ago
I would add to all that even if you insisted on using just Open Era clay court records as some sort of unofficial ranking, which I have already poin