A Metaphor
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From: FactVsReligion
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  • I love this video, I love to whip it out sometimes when I'm with someone just to share the beauty in the metaphor.

  • What is ur view about reincarnation? I've been particularly interested in it and have watched many videos of evidence all through out the world in youtube. I've been raised in a society where we believe in reincarnation and so when i serch for evidence i find that there are facts that make me think that it can be very true. But what do an atheist believe in this?

  • @MaduTheImaginator What "facts"? First I think you would need to define 'fact' or at least get a clearer understanding of it. If there was any such evidence people wouldn't need to question its existence and yet here we are. We don't need to question whether gravity is something that exists because there is evidence, clear, present and testable evidence. We don't fully understand how it works but we know it is there. We build machines based on that evidence that work.

  • @iclash Well there are many evidences. If u just search in the youtube u can find so many of them. Scientist such as Dr Ian Stevenson, Dr. Robert Almeder have investigated it and the evidence are so overwhelming. If u take reincarnation as some kind of a theory and search for it u can find so many phenomenons that supports it. Well there are certain phenomenons that cannot be experimented by current technology but that doesn't mean they are not true.

  • I have learned a lot about robotics and fancy algorithm to "imitate" life, but no cigar. Throughout my years of heavy duty mind computations, I have realize that complexity can't create one iota of consciousness or life. I've been to the end down the rabbits hole, and there I found only one thing, that God is everywhere.

  • I wasn't smart enough, but becUse it's simply impossible to do. The thought alone is mind boggling, it's stops u in ur tracks, u can't even begin to imagine how to start, or where to start. I already knew there was a God, but I wanted the challenge, I wanted to prove myself, cont....

  • When the idea sparked in my mind to build a robot, I saw unlimited possibilities, of course I was naive beyond belief. I realized that nobody wAnts just to build a robot, but to create a robot that can understand. Well I learned the hard way, it was an impossible task, not because cont.....

  • When you said "I would rather live my life" I thought you were going to say "like a candle in the wind"

  • We do not remember anything before we are born....so therefore we will not remember or be conscious of anything after we die....We are simply just another species of this planet and to think we are special is purely based on ones ego.....To take the Bible or Koran literally is to miss the true spiritual connotations or metaphorical meanings of the messages within the texts. Mankind wrote these thoughts down...not some all powerful deity......Gods are the dreams/myths of mankind....

  • It's not quite as simple as that. You have to show that complicatedness leads to consciousness. You can just have complicated, non-conscious things.

    This is an easy concept to understand, but some people 'refuse' to understand.

    If only your fervor was matched with an equal level of intelligence, and tempered with some humility.

  • Why do so many (pseudo) Christian Jihadists resemble "Carrie's mom" these days?

    That's one Stephen King story where the truth is more frightening than the horror fiction.

    "We're non violent Christians....we're peace luvin' bruthas

    If they don't luv Jeebus WE CAN KILL THEM ROTTEN MUTHAS!"

    Or, how about "LOVE THINE ENEMY" unless they're Muslims. Murder them for an express ticket to a Heaven with no way to sin. (dickless Christians won't write their names in the snow or even stand to pee)

  • If we are just chemical processes like the candle, then why would two chemical processes argue about their origin or future ? We are trying to understand the reason for our existence, if there is one, and I think it's too early to tell. You can blow out all the candles you want; but I think the topic deserves a bit more research. I recommend "the power of myth" with Joseph campbell.

  • But your chemicals do not disappear, they in fact Do recycle into other forms.

  • @Ghroshoper Neither does the candle really.

  • I want to know as well. I hope you're right love, don't think these experiments agree with that notion check it no matter how much you don't want it to be true. pranichealingusa . com

  • (cont.)

    2. You talk about how your life matters to you; yet, given your worldview, your life carries no more significance that the light you blew out in the video. Your life may be significant to you, but only in the way that the life of a pigeon is significant to that pigeon. If your worldview is in fact correct, your life carries absolutely no meaning whatsoever.

  • @RAIDERJO76 Speaking for myself, I feel having fun is a good meaning to life. Helping others so they can better enjoy their lives is pretty meaningful. Ignoring the fact your comment being completely besides the point of the video: Meaning and value is subjective. Why does God's existence have any meaning, purpose or value? Why does your life have value if God says it does?; but the same doesn't apply when another human values your existence, if not yourself?

  • 1. You talk about how theists are just so unable to understand this concept you're explaining, yet you do nothing more than make an assertion. It's not that theists are unable to comprehend what you're saying, it's just that they disagree with it. You asserting your naturalism doesn't make it any more true than me asserting my Christian faith makes Christianity true.

    (Cont.)

  • It's a bit sad, doncha think.

  • He said nothing about other dimensions as their existence in her metaphor is irrelevant anyway.

    PS. Scientist says that other dimensions are very probable. Open your mind to possibilities beyond a narrow point of view. Even Galileo was called names for his opinion but in the end he proved to be right so lets continue to explore reality instead of sticking to "this" opinion or "that".

  • To assume to know you will end up in smoke after you die when you don't actually know is no more evolved than any idea created by our imaginations. Science brought evidence that thoughts can effect matter which might (or not, we don't know YET) mean that consciousness is another thing that never goes away much like nothing ever really goes anyway as the line between energy and matter blurs more and more as we learn more about the universe, reality and ourselves. Lit candles transform.

  • You are absolutely lovely!

  • i think of it that way too, however, it still doesn't explain why we have the subjective experience and qualia and the like. There is no reason for us not to be philosophical zombies. Consciousness is entirely physical, granted, but it is spooky and not explained entirely. Look up diekman I = awareness from the journal of consciousness studies.

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  • Sorry, I love you and all :D, but this metaphor wasn't really good, since the candle continues to exist in the form of heat, CO2, water and other stuff :D so do we...

  • @s23b

    It doesn't continue to exist in the form of heat.

    Heat is left behind by the candle after it dies. (Much like ideas, or the body etc.)

  • I love this.

    But how far does one want to take the metaphor? After I die, I live on in the ways I affected those around me, and they affect others. I live on in my children. We all have a part of the very first Human, that we all carry around with us. That person is, in a way, immortal. When we die, our energy is dispersed and moves on. We are recycled. The Hindu Tree of Life goes from metaphor to physics reality. So perhaps there's no saint to greet us on the other side, but we still live on.

  • I'm in with the no life after death thing, but your analogy with the candle not existing in a different state after it's out is a bit flawed thanks to the second law of thermodynamics. Sorry for nitpicking but it just annoyed me.

  • How do you know you will not exist after this life? I don't know what happens when we die but I am not as certain as you to believe that there is nothing after this life.

  • It has been hard to accept that I am finite, but a vapor, a rose.

  • I fear you are correct. But acceptance of truth is not a bad thing.

  • Not sure why I'm getting thumbs down for agreeing with her metaphor?

  • "The candle flame gutters. It's little pool of light trembles. Darkness gathers. The demons begin to stir."

    - The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.

  • A very good and intelligent video.

  • Demon, you're an idiot.

  • The world can't exist peacefully with religion. If you can't see that, then I suggest you kill yourself.

  • Islam - Conquest, thought crime.

    Christianity - Inherited blame.

    Confucianism - More of a philosophy than a religion.

    Hinduism - The priest is always right.

    Daoism is the only one that's particularly pleasant. But it has silliness with shrines and a bagillion minor God's and spirits to mimic human social structure.

  • Hinduism promotes equality? Are you fucking kidding me?

  • @DemonMayCare

    Christianity - Slavery, Genocide, Murder, Torture, Cannibalism, Non-Equality, Sexism, Racism, Fascism. etc.

  • @LindwurParty haha, that is funny...and a completely hypocritical statement. I agree though

  • I bet I know what your definition of peace is. I bet I know what your definition of science is. I bet no professional scientist would recognise it as science.

  • you can not prove or disprove anything with science.

    this dimension of duality is an illusion.

    it is a projection of mind.

    there is a calm still place within where nothing is happening except for the meaning we assign to it

  • Wow...I think this video (for some odd reason) has sparked the whole live life to fullest drive that some people possess. I know it wasn't the point but that's what you have done for me. Damn! metaphors given by good-looking intelligent women always get me! hahaha

  • I find the fact of my own mortality to be a personal insult. Rage, rage against the dying of the light, I say.

  • your body will remain, the energy you emmited will remain, but what made you YOU, your mind is no more, the chemical reactions that maintained your consciousness have stoped, you will not go to some better place and be conscious forever, your mind, your consciousness, has burned out.

    i think samuel clemens said it best "i didnt exist for billions of years before i was born and it didnt inconvenience me in the slightest"

    i think her analogy is quite apt.

  • i have been saying this for a long time, except i likened it to a flame, a flame is only a flame for so long as it is burning, at the point that it ceases to burn, it ceases to be a flame, the involved molecules still exist, the energy created still exists, the wood that was burned still exists, but it is no longer a flame. the flame does not go on to a better place to burn forever, it just ceases to be, as we all will. the chemical reactions maintaining our consciousness will cease (cont)

  • Please get a science book and look up the first law of thermodynamics.

    You are an idiot.

  • "Please get a science book and look up the first law of thermodynamics."

    Troll.

  • Just what is that supposed to mean? I point out that her "metaphor" sucks and that makes me a troll?

    I would say that her "metaphor is more of a metaphor for her lack of understanding of the laws of physics .

    and after looking at your page I would say that you, like her, are a bigot.

  • he is right - the candle will exisit after it's burned out, it will be simply transformed, and fact that it will not be candle anymore doesn't mean that energy that created that candle will cease to exist.

    because that what candle is at it's very basis... energy.

    everything is energy.

  • The first law of thermodynamics: energy can be transformed, but it can neither be created nor destroyed.

  • Very good darth!

    I still don't understand how pointing that out would make me a troll?

  • well you're obviously not a troll :)

    but "factvsreligion" is not an idiot, people are building their view or world basing on knowledge they posses.

    Not knowing something does not make you worse in any kind, the only thing you need is a will to learn :]

  • oh.. and i agree... it's not the best metaphor... ;]

    peace to ya all :)

  • it really isn't a bad metaphor.

    When the candle burns out, it ceases to be a candle.

    The energy used for it will remain, but how does that matter in the least? No part of the concept of candle remains.

  • i din't say it's bad i said it is not the best :P

    no part of the concept of candle remains

    but on the quantum level nothing changes

  • You fight fairy tales with fairy tales.

    These laws are theories (~a looking at). Why they are called law in a first place?

    You should read more about it. It is quite interesting what they glued to the gods. For example:

    * Knowledge about stars, about past, philosophy.

    * They used them to tell stories (deus ex, ...) of morals ...

    They perfected telling of stories so they are catchy (unless it was forbidenn...).

    There's much to learn from that (catchy) story telling of theirs.

  • What a poignant and thoughtful video. Very nicely done. 5*

  • yes but all those who are dead are dead.

    :) live with it. :)

  • the previous comment was to IM99990 below...

  • What are you searching for?

    An evidence? Of course you will not find it.

    I am full of uncertainty;

    I could envy your sureness but I don't envy your conceit.

  • what about the statement "dead is dead"do you find conceitful?

    is it not a far greater conceit to pretend otherwise?

  • it's one thing to be uncertain

    and another to be certain of religious bullshit.

    when you accept death as it is, then you finally give up the ghost.

    what death IS, is not upto the religious people to prescribe.

  • I consider the death just like a door.

    You think there's nothing beyond the door; I think that there's something, (and I'm not pretending).

    I really don't understand why this creed is so bothering for atheists. I don't judge you if you think in a different way, but why you keep on fighting our personal beliefs?

  • Well, you can believe as you wish as long as you realise there is absolutely no reason to believe it, no scientifically acceptable evidence.

    And that's fine.

    But when organisations RELY on irrationality to stay in power, they will always end up campaigning against science and reason. There are religious scientists but they've got to jump through a lot of mental loops to reconcile their beliefs. Even that's ok too, except that this irrationality wants to decide what laws should be. That's WRONG.

  • I agree with you. That's why I deny the religions.Sometimes I think that there's a superior brain behind the grace of nature or behind the beauiful complexity of an human being and my personal God takes form.

  • if you WANT to personally believe that there's something after death -- WITHOUTclaiming that you KNOW what that something is, or that the religious people KNOW what that something is, then i really have no problem with that.

    it's the religious poeple who claim to KNOW that there's heaven and hell, and that people who do as they say go to heaven, andpeople who don't do as they say go to hell, that i have the MOST problem with, since it's basically the biggest scam going on earth.

  • And I'd be the last person to take that faith from you, many of my friends feel the same. When someone has a faith, a strong, irrational intuition that there is a creator of some sort, I can see that the feeling can't be ignored. I don't have that myself and so professing a belief in a personal god is, for me, one step away from believing in fairies, but that belief makes people happy so who am I to take it away?

    But when countries are run by religion instead of reason we have to say something.

  • i have NO PROBLEM with people who say " i don't know what happens after death" -- we don't know whatdeath is -- we just accept death as IS as far as it manifests itself to us, but beyond that we accept that we don't knwo what that IS.

  • Im99990,

    Consider that atheists, rationalists and even deists have had a hard time of it for about 2000 years under the religious yoke.

    Relief and bravado now that they can 'come out' are to be expected - even anger at religious pomposity and injustice.

    Atheists tell a bigger truth you see.

    bees in the garden.

    Everything is part of the ONE whole.

    Religion divides God into gods, sons, devils, ghosts, worthy ( =pride,bigotry) and unworthy; gibberish.

    only one substance, call it God if you like.

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  • So, if humans are merely chemical reactions, what makes you blowing out that candle, any different than murder?

    Surely you are not going to judge the level of the atrocity by the level of complexity, for then you would be attributing less worth to a less complex human. But, then again, maybe you would be a consistent atheist, and show your true colours.

  • It's an analogy. Surely a christian should be able to understand the concept of an analogy. The point is, the flame exists, it burns, and when it goes out the flame is no longer there. All energy and matter is preserved, but the flame is transient. You can think of a soul or mind in the same way.

  • My point remains, if humans are but advanced chemical reactions, what is the ultimate difference between blowing out a candle and murder?

  • its like saying because dogs are animals, humans are also animals, what's the difference between killing a dog and a human. If you really need to ask this question, then you are a sociopath.

  • Being able to re-light the candle would be a big difference...

  • Well, we can make more babies too, so what is the difference?

  • I would think there is a difference between procreation and reincarnation, wouldn't you agree?

  • There is no difference. Except for that the candle can't blow us out.

  • So, in effect blowing out a candle is worse than murder, since a candle is defenseless!

    Ladies and gentlemen, the atheist worldview.

  • Where did you get that sense of "morality"? Why is something defenseless always worse than something that can defend itself? If you and your family were starving, would you rather hunt a defenseless deer or a bear?

    If you choose defenseless deer, are you now immoral?

    If you choose bear, well, we wouldn't be having this conversation I guess...

  • Exactly!

    So, my friend - you repent for blowing out all those candles that you lit for sick people, and I'll repent for going on a murdering spree.

    Deal?

  • To keep to one aspect in this limited comment forum - there is no difference between blowing out a candle, and killing a human, in respect to divine justice.

    Yes. In the law of the land there is, but there is no divine justice meted out.

    But *we* know the moral difference, and we should credit ourselves - humans - for making that discrimination. So, take the credit for yourself, and don't give it to any imaginary-friend.

  • I guess another way to look at this is to ask: To whom?

    To the Sun, neither a candle nor a human life is of any consequence.

    To a human, there is a massivly evolved biological predisposition to preserve one's own species, making the difference between the two vast.

  • //"To the Sun"//

    To the Sun??? When did the sun communicate this to you???

    Look, I believe that there are differences, if you have an issue with the chemical reaction of the candle, being essentially the same as the chemical reaction of humans, then you need to take it up with Laura ^^

  • Wow, was my metaphor that hard to comprehend?

    OK, let me explain again:

    To something with no interest in the outcome, like the Sun, or a yet-to-be-discovered life form on Europa, whether the candle or human keep up their combustion is of little consequence.

    Intra-species consequences carry more weight, and there are even certain microbes looking forward to our death so they can feed on the decaying material.

    It's also called "point of view", does that help you understand how it's relative?

  • //"To something with no interest in the outcome, like the Sun"//

    You still communicating with stars? :-D

  • Wow, are you really that dense that you do not understand the concept being discussed? Since you obviously are, and you did not even notice the title of this video, I will try again to explain it:

    Metaphor (noun)

    1: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them

    The point being made is called "Perspective", The Sun and Aliens are metaphors for "things with no vested interest"

  • Technically the sun communicates to us everyday when its rays of ultraviolet light that allows life to be sustained on Earth. lol

    Just depends on how you interpret communication =P

  • Carl Sagan Said:

    "It is better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

    My Grandpa said:

    "Wish in one hand and shit in the other. Then see which one fills up first."

    Both were wise men.

  • Great video, great metaphor. :) I agree with raecelestek.. why not simply enjoy our tiny little blip of existence, rather than fritter it away waiting for some imaginary friend to "save" us?

  • haha so yea i kinda abused the quotation marks aaahahahhaa!

  • i think it's not so much that devoutly religious ppl don't "understand" the concept of "once we die, we go up in smoke and we're literally gone for good"; i think it's more of the fact that they can't COPE with that honest concept..as you'd said in your other videos.

    and yea..religious ppl are almost insulting their current life here on earth when they're constantly dreaming of that whimsical "heaven" they will one day "enter"...as opposed to appreciating their life NOW. ..

  • I respect your opinion but remember that everything is balanced, as there's night there's days and as there's the male there's the females...etc

    PS:" All praises be to the ONE who created the heaven and the earth and made darkness and light and those who don't believe BALANCE.

    Takbir 1

  • there is chemical reactions of the mind and body but there is something that is not Chemical or Biological and it is the Consouisness, it is different.

    Peace

  • Nice idea, but it's just an assumption based on your presupposed ideas about what consciousness is. Evidence of consciousness exists simultaneously with the physical aspects of the human brain. Since we don't have any other example of consciousness, or any evidence of consciousness existing without the brain, and we have people with physically damaged brains lacking consciousness, it's reasonable to assume the two are linked, even if we aren't sure exactly how.

  • Well, psychology is a relatively new science, although it has made exceptional progress in the last few years, it still remains immature.

    Faith is just as important as evidence, but like all things it needs to be balanced or metigated, otherwise we will find ourselves no different than any sort of terrorist (nonreligious ones in mind as well). Although, sometimes things should be taken that far in order to rebalance things, to keep a perfect balance requires wisdom that many do not have.

  • Laura Nelson, Hope I got your name right. Can you show just one case of a living thing adding something new to it's genome naturely?

  • Huh it's called gene mutation, so it can add, subtract and everything in between.

    Humans do replicate cells and themselves, so mutations occur.

    Also nylonase producing Flavobacteria (nylon is man made). Elephants without tusks. Animals with two heads. Adaptation to High and Low Temperatures by E. coli.... etc.

  • We are unique in our awareness that we exist and our ability to express it. That is the meaning of life, to express through creativity what it is to exist. I just thought you might want to know.

  • Mmm, interesting, and likewise the inability of some people to perceive the truth embodied in the various religious traditions around the world, does not make those truths any less valid. It simply means you have not been able to perceive them while others have. To dismiss the meaning of religious impulse in the natural history of man is as much a fallacy as religious fundamentalism, possibly even more so.

  • To dismiss the hunger impulse (and the wonderful taste of certain high calorie things) in the natural history of humans is as much a fallacy as confusing correlation with causation.

    Yet, not eating them every chance we get is good for us; we avoid being overweight and possibly unhealthy.

  • Just tyring to say that some unseen things are believed in by most.

    I respect your decision to not believe in fairy tale things, just dont let it affect your good morality and humanity. Do have to remember that belief in the divine DOEs change people occasionally from being ;evil; in a sense to good. In that purpose, I believe fairy tales has its function, nothing like a good metaphor to explain the wisdom of good morals and humanity.

  • mitigated*

  • Nothing really is alive or dead. These are just concepts/labels that we humans put on things.

    There is no beginning and there is no ending... Energy has always existed and will always exist in one form or another.

    The Universe of a low gravity entropy state which appeared around 13 Billion years ago can actually be attributed to our understanding of time and why things change the way they do.

    what caused this state is something don't understand yet, but one can consider timeless chaotic states.

  • Videos like this make me want to kill myself.'

  • People like you make me want to kill myself.

  • Hi i have Videos better than these, please check my chanel and check the videos specially with Miracles of you will find many miracles and many comments with answers please check videos in my chanel is better than these with lot

  • A comprehensive easy to understand metaphor that atheists are unwilling to compute...

    I'm a Christian, I understand this video perfectly.

    Now what atheists don't understand is that the concept of the Bible and God are perfectly fine...they're metaphors, i repeat METAPHORS. Good and evil are just alike right and wrong..Not religion, but God and the Bible have a powerful psychological influence. It depends on what kind of person you are...religion can make a person do a 180 from being inhumane

  • from being inhumane to being completely humane, kind and loving person.

    If believing in God or the Bible doesn't work for you then fine...just drop it, stop trying to force people not to believe in it.

    But remember, religion is a man-made system of control; however the concept of believing in God & the bible is all about loving one another and not killing each other. Now that concept is an easy to understand metaphor that atheists are unwilling to compute.

  • Caring for one another and not killing each other is one of the few things we agree upon.

    However, the Bible is most certainly not "all about" these concepts. You have read it, right?

    -- Proverbs 23:13

    -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    -- II Kings 2:23-24

    -- Genesis 22:1-2

    -- Judges 11:30-32, 34, 39

    Just a few examples for you...

  • I know

    But

    thats how I interpret it.

    I am sure that youve noticed that I am not a violent person, I am the neohippy saying, ;lets all get along.;

    Unfortunately the world doesnt work that way because frankly were all too stupid to do so; i mean you would think ;hey we should like work together and advance to ensure the future survival of our species;

    Instead, we piss on one another and linger on petty differences, life has its cruel moments and its good ones.

  • Comment removed

  • Excellent video. Keep up the inspiring work, Laura!

  • So true Laura, me too.

  • I have my reasons for believing but I'm not trying to substantiate them because I assume that all adult law-abiding citizens have to answer these questions for themselves. However, I am always ready to give an answer for the hope that is within me.

  • I use logic, experience, knowledge and judgement to make rational decisions. I accept the evidence of intelligent design to be convinced that there is an intelligent designer. I believe that a Supreme being exists and you believe that the universe began itself. Who is to say who is right? If you are truly honest, you'll admit that it's really a choice, now, isn't it?

  • Of course it is.

    Choice #1: Self-delusion for perfectly understandable fears of mortality and appreciation of emotional (spiritual) experiences, based on ignorance of and/or dismissal of evidence (due to the above fears and fondness).

    Choice #2: Acknowledging human fallibility in knowledge. Simply because one knows something to be true does not make it true. It can still be false (and probably is, in some sense or another). Our understanding of the universe around us is evolving.

  • Yes, there are other choices, too, but these are good examples.

    Intelligent design has no evidence, though. It has flimsy arguments that are full of flaws and easily dismissed as fallacious (after evaluation, not before).

    You claim I believe the universe began itself, but I make no such claim. I only claim neither one of us knows what, how, or whether or not the universe began, despite your fervent claim that you do know (after all, the Bible says so--how could it possibly be wrong?!).

  • Intelligent design IS (how can evidence have evidence - that's redundance) one major evidence of the existence of God (e.g., the complexities of the human eye which has purpose clearly proves that an intelligence designed and developed it - just as a complex micro-circuit which has purpose clearly proves to anyone with sufficient intelligence to apprehend, that the circuit was designed and developed by someone and didn't just evolve from a transistor radio).

  • ID is a possible explanation for the complexity seen in life. That explanation can have or lack evidence of being the best known explanation for that complexity.

    In this case, though, ID is more of a fallback position. If we can't find an explanation of complexity, we make it supernatural. God did it.

    Evolution is a well-understood theory that is as likely to be completely overturned by new data as the theory of gravitation or germ theory.

  • Philosophically, I didn't claim, I didn't have to, it's implied.

    Additionally, I never claimed to know. I claimed that I believe. There's a difference. One is knowledge (gnosis - gr.) the other is faith (pistis - gr.).

  • Semantics. Great. You're certainly better at this arguing thing than I am. Does one just believe something, or does one believe one knows something? What's the difference, exactly? When does certainty change into truth? It doesn't. Knowing (or believing, or believing you know) something never makes it true. It might be true; it might not.

    Which has more credibility: an old book that sounds like a fairytale, or the consistency of the universe?

  • there are many unseen forces, i.e. gravity. no one sees it, but the force is there. black holes couldnt be seen for the longest time, hence why it was not considered a fact till later on.

  • Gravity is only unseen in that you can't see gravity itself directly. It's very easy to see its effects on other things, though. You can even measure it. And, it turns out to be consistent, so we can create rules about it based on its patterns, then make predictions and use those to determine whether our rules and patterns were accurate. That's the essence of science.

    What about your imaginary friend's force? Is it consistent? Do any rules apply in any way we can measure? Of course not.

  • Actually it is, its a force called love. its quite measurable and consistent.

    Many rules apply to it, depending on the person expressing it.

    Btw, I am an Evolutionists, u idiot.

  • Emotions like love are measurable to some extent but are also much more complex than gravity; there aren't many consensuses about emotions, but few experts/scientists/psychologis­ts would claim they don't exist.

    How do you get from "Love exists" to "God exists"? You can't, unless you make some assumptions that aren't any better than their alternatives in any way.

  • I would have to agree with Darkgravx12,

    How can you measure an emotion or feeling?

    Not everything can be weighed and measured my friend.

    And I'm a Deist, btw.

  • Well you could probably measure an emotion by how the heart reacts when he\she or it is present and is loved by the person. Or by measuring the horomone level of the person expressing the emotion or simply the expression of the person, although expressions arent as reliable as the reaction of the horomone levels\cardiacs (hearts) activity.

  • "measure an emotion"

    'Love' is the emotion you were talking about. There are many others, and I was simply supporting what you said.

    To me, no scientist can explain why people feel the way they do, or do what they do. Most of these choices are indeed cohersed with emotions. You cannot predict an emotion on a constant scale. Therefore, it cannot be relyably be measured. In order for it to be 'Science', it must be repeatable. What makes me happy, may indeed, piss you off. ;-)

  • Ah, quite right.

  • The complexity of the human brain is incredible. We may never fully and completely understand its functions; we certainly don't right now. How does "we don't know" turn into "it must be god"?

    Someday maybe this question will be answered, if we ever come to understand the brain in a broad, deep, fundamental and functional way. For now, it's just the same philosophical question of whether or not the god of the gaps is a better explanation than simply saying "I don't know."

  • Naturally, its not always a cruel world, there are many beautys and paradises in this world, but the chaos or cruelty outweighs it.

  • "We may never fully and completely understand its functions; we certainly don't right now"

    Exactly. The same can be said about just about everything in Science. It can change when new information is discovered. We certainly don't understand anything 'Completely'.

    I'm a man of possiblity. And to me, it IS possible that a 'God' exsists. Just like it IS possible that there really ARE invisible pink elephants. Sounds silly? But it's possible...

    Nothing is impossible, only improbable.

    Peace

  • You're right. Invisible pink unicorns are just as possible as god who is just as possible as the teapot in orbit around the sun between Earth and Mars.

    Which one of these imagined concepts gives you any logical reason to give it, for all practical intents and purpose, a place in reality as opposed to remaining an imagined concept? Sure, they're all possible. That's not a reason to base your very real decisions on those ideas, though.

  • Nothing is what it claims to be, everyone has their own interpretations and lies\biases. Best to keep an openmind, not to say that you should believe what everyone tells you, but at least consider what is being said.

    I dont think that I need to remind you of how nearly everyone in the Medieval\ancient times believed that the world was flat, it took about 3 people alone to disprove that theory of the world being flat. These people kept openminds, back then they were considered crazy.

  • As you know, there's only 2 things that are certain...' Be that as it may, choosing not to believe is choosing to believe there is no God (or, as you are implying you just don't have sufficient evidence so you don't have to choose.

    However since there is a time limit on this because we all die, then at the moment you die you're totally comitted to never having believed that there is a God. So, if he does exist (and he does), you have in effect, said, in your face God!

  • So do me a favor and don't keep me guessing - what do you believe?

    One more thing. There's only proof to the one who believes in God. One who believes in God has faith. An atheist has only doubts. As I said, may you find as much comfort in your doubts as I do in my God.

  • I believe you're a rational, reasonable person; like all beliefs it doesn't change reality; does it?

    Proof to the one who believes in god isn't proof at all. It's a justification for belief. Justifications can be reasonable and valid, or ludicrous and absurd.

    As human beings, we all try to justify our actions--even the ones that can't reasonably be justified by reasonable standards. That doesn't stop us from doing it anyway.

    I don't need any fairy tales, no matter how comforting.

  • Some people need to believe in a greater power of good, the unseen force that is in control because to be honest control is just an illusion, we only have enough to keep us from going insane. I can deal without having a greater power, but for many people it would simply drive them insane and as we well know insanity is as easily obtainable as sainity is. The wisdom in believing in a great power has many purposes, i.e. allowing others to believe in something better than this cruel world.

  • So does evolution, they still havent found the ;missing link; that connects us to homo erectus.

  • Sure, maybe if we can find a fossilized example of every single species that has ever lived on Earth, the people clinging to their religious dogma on the pretext that it's incompatible with the science being presented to them will suddenly understand and reconcile their beliefs with reality. The world will be good again!

    Or, they'll dismiss that, too, like all the evidence that already exists.

  • you cannot disregard any of the theories because neither of them have solid proof, its called being unbiased, science has been setback for years many times because of bias thinking. btw on ur last comment, the bible is actually considered an accurate history book by historians, for the longest time people believed that the bible was referring to a fairy tale when it mentioned the trojan horse\war, till later on they found archaeological evidence of the ancient city\battle.

  • ID isn't a theory, nor is it science. It's misinformation designed to support the overthrow of rational thought in favor of religious dogma. You say I must be unbiased and give the so called theory its due consideration without knowing whether or not I have done so.

    Luckily, most people have learned enough to know a view of the earth as being less than ten thousand years old is laughable, though. So, good luck!

  • I believe the supreme being requires me to grow in righteousness so I take this responsibility very seriously and consider this my primary duty to him and so I endeavor to honor his requirement for this reason. I'm still a work in progress and will be until I'm made immortal. I live each day as if it's my last with all gravity and sincerity and relish the gift and giver of life the best that I can. I owe him no less than the very best I can give.

  • The Bible doesn't teach an immortal soul. Death is death. The Bible teaches immortality is a gift to be given by God at a future resurrection. See beyondtv's channel (7hGiNnMO-Fo) for one teacher's discourse. The candle cannot relight itself and we cannot bring ourself back to life but just as you could 'relight the candle' if you so desire, God can do the same for us. I've fully settled this issue decades ago and believe without doubt that he will. May you find your disbelief as pleasant.

  • I have found my lack of belief equally pleasant. There is, of course, at least one difference; you have found solace in a possibly true but highly unlikely fairy tale and there alone, where I and (I hope) other atheists and secular people have found solace with all potential results, from the highly likely to the incredibly unlikely.

    We have made peace with your version of reality, our own version, and those versions we cannot possibly imagine.

    Perhaps it is not equally pleasant, after all...

  • John 3:16. I take great joy in the knowledge that I will live forever. O death, where is thy sting, O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 15:55-57).

  • Not to mention that we will continue to make rational decisions based on empirical evidence, while many people with the set of beliefs you described will not. Since you will be rekindled, what actions you commit here in this life are less important (and less guided by principles founded in rational thought) than they might be if you behaved as if you would not continue beyond your demise.

  • Exploration of consciousness is still very much at the beginning in western science, as far as I know. Certainly, all research of consciousness would be bound to matter, speak the brain. And many surprises might be awaiting us.

    But alas - bound to matter all research will never be able to answer the question whether mind free of the bounds of matter could in fact be a "reality". The indian and I think buddhist scriptures say so, and I am not in the position to reject this.

  • But the candle was lit by a greater being... thus proving something cannot come from nothing.

  • Ah.. but if something cannot come from nothing, then what created God, what did God come from?

    If you say that God is infinite and eternal and does not need a beginning or a creator. Then why not just save a step and say that the Universe is infinite and does not need a creator?

  • Because the universe has evidence of a beginning from one quantum singularity of energy.

  • Ah... but it is not the creation of the Universe. It is the expansion of the space-time continuum, making the current 'state' of the Universe.

    The big Crunch theory states that at the end of time, our Universe will contract backwards again into a single point and perhaps creating a new Universe. So there could in fact have been a previous Universe before ours.

  • Also string-theory and M-theory states all probabilities of our Universe are being played out in different realities. So our Universe may have been born by a parent Universe and our own is in turn giving birth to other Universes.

  • Science says no, and my scientific self says "Of course". But then - after studying the indian philosophical/yogic concepts a bit - especially Cashmere Shaivism (Trika) - and noticing how much their spirit based concepts are congruent with our most modern scientific theories I cannot but tell myself the big MAYBE.

  • Isn't that what the Hindus believe since I don't know how long - the night of Brahman, when all "created! things turn back to their origin only to be reborn after an unimaginably long time span?

    For me as an agnostic it is always difficult to take a stance - but I would n ever be willing to concede without hesitation that spirit without matter is NOT possible. (te be continued in next post)

  • from being inhumane to being completely humane, kind and loving person.

    If believing in God or the Bible doesn't work for you then fine...just drop it, stop trying to force people not to believe in it.

    But remember, religion is a man-made system of control; however the concept of believing in God & the bible is all about loving one another and not killing each other. Now that concept is an easy to understand metaphor that atheists are unwilling to compute.

  • A comprehensive easy to understand metaphor that atheists are unwilling to compute...

    I'm a Christian, I understand this video perfectly.

    Now what atheists don't understand is that the concept of the Bible and God are perfectly fine...they're metaphors, i repeat METAPHORS. Good and evil are just alike right and wrong..Not religion, but God and the Bible have a powerful psychological influence. It depends on what kind of person you are...religion can make a person do a 180 from being inhumane

  • I like to think of us like computers.

    You can turn a computer on, it runs, it can run programs and "think" and process information.

    Computers get old and their parts may not work so well anymore. When a computer is turned off and unplugged, you can take it apart, piece by piece... and it thinks no more.

    Is there are heaven for a hard drive? A place where the memory lives on?

    We're organic computers, basically... and that's why I'm skeptical about the existence of any sort of afterlife.

  • But we're not computeres, we don't run on electricity, we run on vitamins and minerals. I like the fact that you're skeptical however, many people completely disregard the possibility which is wrong because they have no proof to disregard it in the first place.

    I don't blame people for doing that, it's difficult to remain unbiased.

  • Hmm... good points. But couldn't one argue that we run on vitamins and minerals that we process and then turn into electricity?

    Perhaps we are like cars, then. Cars that are started when they are born, must be continually refueled and can't be re-started once they are turned for too long.

    Does a car have a soul? What if we mixed this car with a computer brain? Would that be more like a human being? What's heaven for a car..

  • We would feel the spark is it was electricity.

    Yes, we are more like automotive vehicles, cars run via a chemical reaction, much like how we run. Except, we don't use metal, the elements we use aren't that heavy in reference to the periodic table 1-30 atomic mass etc.,...

    Ah, now you're talking about positive and negative energy. Did you know that you can actually kill a person with negative energy or words, they could be perfectly healthy and well fed, but the negativity you give them alone

  • alone can kill them. Now if we didn't have a soul, yet negative words/energy could kill us, then why would we die if we were perfectly sustained? There's actually a book about it, one of the soldiers that survived talked about how the Vietcong would kill their prisoners, all they would do is tell them negative things and break them down, the prisoners even got letters, but the Vietcong only gave them negative one's. The prisoners simply curled up and died because they couldn't handle it.