there is nothing remarkable about music , just play the right notes at the right time and the instrument plays itself - J S Bach - on a crappy day perhaps...and he had many did he not..
Concerning the size of the forces, it's true that Bach was forced by economics to use few instruments but in a famous letter to the St. Thomas administration where he stated the number of instruments and singers he would prefer...a group totaling around 50.
However, small scaled performances can have surprising dramatic impact. I have to admit that I was stunned by the power and strength of Koopman's Messiah with a chorus and orchestra of only 16 each!
@michsturge Around 50? Bach never said anything of the sort. In his memo to the Leipzig town council he
talks about the number of singers needed for CONCURRENT performances at THREE of the town's main churches. He says each of the three 4-part choirs needs 3 singers per part (= 12 singers per choir per church). He then concludes that a GRAND TOTAL of 36 singers (3 x 12 = 36) is needed to supply THREE choirs for the THREE churches.
@michsturge Only 1 of the 3 churches would hear concerted music, e.g, cantatas. The other 2 would hear only motets or simple chorales needing only continuo.
Bach's memo lists the instruments needed for concerted music: 2 or 3 violin 1, 2 or 3 violin 2, 2 viola 1,
@michsturge NOTE: Bach's memo is talking only about what he needs in reserve, not what he must throw at every performance. E.g., not every cantata has a part for trumpet, timpani or viola 2!
Based on the numbers Bach's states in his memo, a cantata scored for 4-part chorus plus the usual strings requires 12 singers plus AT MOST 11 string players = 23 musicians, not 50.
@michsturge The notion that Bach, or any other Baroque composer, would write music that required more musicians than he had on hand is simply not logical.
bach always makes everything better when im having a really crappy day, his music really fullfills my heart, mind and soul. thank you for posting such a beautiful, clear, and perfect recording of it.
I still think Harnoncourt's 1971 period instrument recording is the best overall. Gardiner may be a bit too peppy, but Richter is simply way too slow, his orchestra is too large, singers sing with too much vibrato for Baroque music. The interpretation is also over romanticized. Richter is a throw back to the early era of Bach performance before musicological research has uncovered correct performing practices.
@michsturge I agree with all you said about Richter. Fortunately, Bach as performed by Richter is a thing of the past. But as you are mindful of Baroque performance practice and musicological research, it's doubtful Bach had in mind this kind of big, dramatic, monumental sound Gardiner strives for. The design of the performing parts Bach used for this work clearly show that he used one voice per part. I could say much more about this, but it wouldn't fit in YouTube comments.
@readyornot90 The exact contrary, unfortunately, happened. His hierarchy was dissatisfied with his work: too complex, too theatrical, too sophisticated. And, in a certain manner, they were right: was should we think of the religious merits of a piece of music so beautiful, so inspired, so deep, that decades after even decadent atheists (like me) listen to it for their sole pleasure ? Unadorned chorals and recitatives: that's want they would expect.
@pierrot79 If you think Bach was consided theatrical, you should hear Telemann's church pieces. The Lutheran clergy of the early 18th c. was divided as to whether "opera" was appropriate in church music. Strong arguments were made for and against. But it was Bach's Leipzig predecessor Johann Kuhnau, not Bach, who began the practice in the Leipzig churches of presenting "operatic" passion music. They were used to it by the time Bach took over.
@pierrot79 NO. You think the Leipzig churchgoers expected unadorned chorales and recitatives? Bach's predecessor, Johann Kuhnau, presented adorned chorales! They would have recognized Kuhnau's style in Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring"! They were used to it! You seem to think they didn't want opera but wanted recitatives, but recitatives are a feature of OPERA! Telemann also used arias and recitatives in his church music.
@pierrot79 Music was a vitally important feature of the Lutheran liturgy. You are quite mistaken if you think Lutheran congregations of Bach's era expected only unadorned chorales and recitatives. Do you really think Leipzig supported a Latin school (St. Thomas school) to train 50 boys in music just to perform unadorned chorales and recitatives!!! You don't even seem to realize that recitatives and arias go hand in hand, and that BOTH are feature of OPERA!
@pierrot79 A year after the 1st performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the author of the libretto, the Leipzig poet Picander, published a cycle of cantata poetry for the Leipzig churches and wrote in the preface: "I flatter myself that the lack of poetic charm may be compensated for by the loveliness of the music of our incomparable Capellmeister Johann Sebastian Bach."
@pierrot79 Bach and the other candidates for the Leipzig post each had to compose and perform cantatas as part of their audition for the post. Bach provided two cantatas for his audition. If "his hierarchy" didn't like what they heard, then why did they hire him? Do you think the other candidates supplied only "unadorned chorales and recitatives"?
@pierrot79 You are so misinformed. The term "cantata" was originally applied only to Italian secular OPERA, the features of which are ARIAS and RECITATIVES. Bach did not introduce operatic features into Leipzig church music. This had already been done by his predecessor, Johann Kuhnau, who directed the music of the Leipzig main churches from 1701 until his death in 1722! Kuhnau also composed operas for the Leipzig opera!
@pierrot79 Originally, concerted church music /w opera features such as arias & recitatives was known by terms such as "church music", "church pieces" & "concerto" & "sacred concerto". Eventually, the term "cantata", which had originally been applied only to Italian secular opera, was also applied to church cantatas because it had become common for church pieces to employ operatic devices like arias and rectitatives. Bach did not invent this. He was merely following a TREND!
@pierrot79 Oh, yes it was. Just look at the Lutheran church pieces of his contemporaries! E.g., Telemann. The term "cantata" was originally applied to Italian opera. How do you think it came to be applied to Lutheran church pieces? The modern German cantata came about in 1700 (when Bach was 15), in Saxe-Weissenfels, not far from Weimar. Operatic passion music entered the Leipzig liturgy BEFORE Bach, in the works of Bach's Thomaskantor predecessor, Johann Kuhnau.
@wcbroccoli I completely agree with the fact that operatic style was used in church music (oratorio).
What I was saying is that the STYLE of Bach was not to the taste of the church in Leipzig. It was the music of Handel and Telemann that was expected by the church leaders, not the highly ornamented counterpoint of Bach.
Just compare the Messiah or the Creation and Bach passions ! For having played both Messiah and St. Mat., I can testify they have little in common.
@pierrot79 Every serious candidate for the post (which some council members viewed more as a teaching post than a musical directorship!) had to present 2 audition cantatas that fit the Leipzig liturgy. If the judges didn't like Bach's audtion pieces, then why did they hire him? BTW, Telemann had already withdrawn his application before Bach entered, and Handel did not apply at all!
@pierrot79 The St Matthew Passion is tailored to fit Leipzig's Good Friday liturgy. The Messiah wouldn't fit the Leipzig liturgy at all. Neither would Hadyn's Creation! Most of Messiah's choruses are arrangements of Italian language love duets Handel had composed a few months before; you can still hear the original duet texture in some of the choruses. You don't seem to know the difference between public concert pieces and litugical music. .
@pierrot79 Messiah and Creation are public concert pieces, not litugical music. You must think the St. Matthew Passion is in 2 parts to allow for a concert intermission. It was to allow for a sermon; text of the closing aria of part 1 and of the opening of the 2nd part were selected to fit the sermon. And you probably think everyone was supposed to applaud at the end; in fact, the Passion music was neither the beginning nor the end of the service; it was followed by a Latin motet!
@pierrot79 You don't seem to realize that 1/2 the council members wanted a teacher, not a musician. You seem to think everyone on the council had the same ideas. Did you know there were two councils? You have no idea what "was to the taste of the church in Leipzig." You don't even know that Leipzig had 4 main churches, not 1. You don't even seem to know Passion music is, or what is the difference in between public & liturgical Passion music. You seem to think everything is concert music.
@pierrot79 When Bach was hired in 1723, composers had not stopped using what you naively call "highly ornamented counterpoint" in church music. His predecessor had used it. Even your Telemann used it in his own church music. Messiah and Creation would not have fit the liturgy of Leipzig's churchES or any other Lutheran church of Bach's era.
@pierrot79 A year after the 1st performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the author of the libretto, the Leipzig poet Picander, published a cycle of cantata poetry for the Leipzig churches and wrote in the preface: "I flatter myself that the lack of poetic charm may be compensated for by the loveliness of the music of our incomparable Capellmeister Johann Sebastian Bach."
How do you reconcile Picander's remarks with your notions about "the taste of the church in Leipzig"?
@readyornot90 A year after the 1st performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the author of the libretto, the Leipzig poet Picander, published a cycle of cantata poetry for the Leipzig churches and wrote in the preface: "I flatter myself that the lack of poetic charm may be compensated for by the loveliness of the music of our incomparable Capellmeister Johann Sebastian Bach."
You didn't at all read Lev. 18, did you? These people were hardly 'innocent.' Of course I've read most of the old testament.
This wasn't only a few people doing the things mentioned here. It was the norm of the society, so children were taught this early on. In early Jewish culture, if a person slept with his neighbor they would both be killed. If it were only a few people, only they would be killed. When it is a whole culture, they must all be killed.
Evil is the god who glorifies the slaughtering of innocent women, children and animals. Nothing can justify the brutalities described in Old Testament!
Except for the long list of their own sins listed in Leviticus 18...
Sacrificing children, having sexual affairs with EVERYONE and animals. God didn't want His people copying them, so he told them to completely destroy that disgusting society (they had 500 years -while the Israelites were in Egypt- to figure it out).
Did you read Bible? Do you remember how his people conquered Canaan? You live in 21 century and still think that childslayer is a hero??? And what wrong have these animals done? WTF???
) It sounds like Pilatus' "What is Truth". Evil (not in your mystical meaning but in my humanistic) is when a living creature is killed in the name of ideological conception or to please some imaginary being.
We sure as hell (pardon the term) don't have to interpret this music within context of some institutionalized dogma. Wherever you stand in terms of your religious views, one thing is clear: this is the product of the human mind and "spirit". When I hear bach's music I almost feel like there is some hope for us as a species on this fragile planet.
the great version ever played. wonderful. i cry everytime i decided to listen this passion, and this masterpiece, created by the "la cima del talento creador musical humano" for 2 orchestras and 8 voices and boy's choir...........
@hourlynewscaster Never, EVER put it past a hater of Christianity to suppress his urge to take the smallest opportunity to bash it. Virtually no one who espouses an anthropocentric view can abide anything that offends his ego.
@hourlynewscaster I wholly agree with you, but I think that is exactly what is the point of the debate. Is this music that we can just listen to and enjoy, or must we hear it within the context of God and Christ and the testimony of his crucifixion according to St. Mathew, as written in the Bible (which is how Bach would have wanted this piece to be remembered).
@hourlynewscaster Life is brutal and filthy in many cases, and people who wants to describe it, must be vulgar. But some pieces, like this one, let's us to leave the world for a moment and reach something higher. If I would be a believer, I'd say... Heaven.
The liturgy for Good Friday Vespers (1:45 PM) in Leipzig's churches in Bach's era: Hymn: "Da Jesus an dem Kreuze studn" Passion (Part 1) Hymn: Herr Jesus Christ, dich zu uns wend" Sermon (1 hour) Passion (Part 2) Motet: "Ecce, quomodo mortitur justus" Collect prayer Biblical verse: "Die Strafe liegt auf ihm" (Isaiah 53:5) Hymn: "Nun danket all Gott"
It would seem to me that he dedicated his life to improving the talents he came by naturally, and was thereby able to compose such wonderful music as this.
@cherryantacid421 you didn't like the inquisition or the christian silence during the holocaust or the bible-supported slavery and segregation or the burning to stake the heretics and women? what about the geocentric model of the universe? what about anti-stem cell research? shooting pro-choice doctors? nothing? you're a hard man to please. good.
@cherryantacid421 LOL! Bach's music is but one aspect of an entire culture whose artistic, political, and scientific advances (yes, scientific -- most of the West's most prominent scientists and mathematicians proudly embraced some religion, usually Christianity) are clearly rooted in that belief system. You irreligious fist-shakers have longed wished it not so; better to minimize Christianity's positive impact than to endure the pain of reconciling your views with the truth.
It can be faulted: (1) tempi are too fast and not based on one crotchet per sec,
(2) timbre is too thin, (3) added mordents and trills are amateurism and go against what Bach wrote (4), the chorale [trebles] is insufificient to the gravity of the opening to this magnum opus, which is actually a choral-prelude as all organists will recognise, and (5) there is an over-emphasis on the first beat of each bar.
it may be useful for you, as an organist, to relate the form of this chorus to the Chorale-Preludes you are familiar with. To the rest of us, though, it probably makes better sense to regard an organ chorale-prelude to be a weak imitation of such a cantata movement, many of which has a chorale strand embedded inside a rich choral fantasy.
The problems with tempo are another matter; perhaps our generation requires faster speeds.
I am not analysing this chorus for me, but intend for this to help you understand the composer's rationale and how this epic piece might have been understood by contemporaneous listeners.
It is one movement, part of a story
The cantata form is utterly and entirely different to this piece, and is a many-movement work. That they both relate to a chorale is insufficient to claim a form nexus.
"Epic piece"? I doubt Bach or anyone of the early 18th c. thought in such terms.
The original performing parts indicate that he performed this 1 voice per part. Monumentality was surely not on his mind.
This movement is a choral aria, not a chorale prelude. Chorale preludes were followed by the congregation singing the chorale that was preluded. Hence, the term "chorale prelude".
The St. Matthew Passion is scored for double chorus and double orchestra (including double organ). The Christmas Oratorio consists of six straight-forward cantatas, meant to be performed on six separate occasions in Christmas and New Year. The St. Matthew Passion was indeed a big one, even in Bach's day. It was probably not performed more than twice by Bach, and then not again until Mendelssohn revived it in the 1820s. It took him five years to set it up.
Furthermore, it is irrelevant whether or not Bach thought of it as an epic piece, or intended it as such. What is or is not epic is decided by posterity, and the St. Matthew Passion is indeed epic.
So YOU say. It might sound "epic" when performed by large choruses like Gardiner's.
But "epic" is not what Bach had in mind.
Original sources make it clear that he used 1 principal singer for each line --meaning a total of 4 with 4 extra voices for SJP, and a group of 8 for SMP--plus a few extras to sing small dramatic roles and certain hymn melodies. Even those experts who dispute this (largely for ideological or personal reasons) suggest an outer limit of 12 voices for SJP & 24 for SMP.
I think we use "epic" differently.. You seem to be using "epic" in the sense of sheer physical scale. But Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor is also an epic piece, even though it consists of only one part (or two, if you count the man at the billows). It is the quality of the music itself which makes it epic, not how many is required to perform it. A crappy piece, on the other hand, won't be epic no matter how many performers you have.
This was the typical liturgy for Good Friday Vespers (1:45 PM) in Leipzig's main churches in Bach's era: -Hymn: "Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund" -Passion part 1 -Hymn: "Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend" -Sermon (1 hour) -Passion part 2 -Motet: "Ecce quomodo moritur justus" -Collect prayer -Biblical verse: "Die strafe liegt auf ihm" -Hymn: "Nun danket all Gott"
The Passion was divided in 2 parts, not to allow for a "concert break", but to allow the strategic insertion of a theologically appropriate hymn & 1 hr. sermon.
After Passion part 2 ended, they did not applaud and go home. Instead, they listened to a Latin motet. Then a prayer. Then a bible verse. Then sang a hymn and went home for supper.
But today, even when SMP is heard in a church, it's treated as a concert event /w intermission. When the passion ends, everyone applauds & goes home.
Posterity can no longer make arbitrary decisions about the interpretation of Baroque music. We are guided by research and developments in the field of Baroque performance practice.
If you believe this is an "epic piece" in the sense of the "epic movie" or "epic film score", then you have a very distorted idea the composer's intentions for this work and the resources needed to perform it.
The composer's intentions have nothing to do with it. Epic pieces do not come about because the composer INTENDS to write an epic piece. What makes a piece epic is the quality, as appreciated by posterity. If the Matthew Passion had only been appreciated in Bach's time by Bach's culture, it would not be epic no matter how grand the people of the time thought it was. It is precisely because it stands out in musical history that makes it epic.
Again, what does the composer's intentions have to do with it? Many composers do indeed sit down and say, "ok, now I'm going to compose something EPIC!" But that's not what makes it epic. I could easily write a crappy but huge orchestral splasher for 200 parts including 80 trumpets and 30 timpanies, but unless my composition has an epic QUALITY to it, it won't be epic no matter how many parts or famous performers I could get to perform them.
On the other hand, a composer could sit down and vent about the misfortunes of his life in a piano piece, and though he did not intend or expect it, it could still become an epic if the quality of the composition was great enough. Your arguments indicate that I have somehow used the size of the orchestration or the composer's intent as basis for saying that SMP is epic, but I have done nothing of the sort. In fact, I have repeatedly pointed out that that is what I am NOT doing.
Bach's passions continued to be performed in Leipzig for a few years after his death until the taste in religious poetry changed.
But his motets based on psalms & hymns, not poetry, continued to be performed in Leipzig long after his death. Mozart heard "Singet dem Herrn" in Leipzig for the first time in 1789.
Mendelssohn conducted the 1st public CONCERT performance of SMP OUTSIDE of Leipzig.
SMP is not a concert piece, but a church piece tailored to the Leipzig liturgy.
Bach wrote several double chorus pieces (e.g. certain motets & cantatas). But no matter how many "choruses" were involved, the resources did not increase. Each chorus still employed 1 voice per part. We know because we have the performing parts. The people who sang the solos also sang the choruses.
The incomplete record shows SMP was performed AT LEAST FOUR times during Bach's tenure in Leipzig (1723-1750): 1727, 1729, 1736, and at least once again in the 1740s.
I believe Roger Norrington's Orchestra of the Age of Englightenment has actually performed Mendelssohn's 1829 public concert edition of Bach's SMP on instruments of Mendelssohn's day.
Chamber organs didn't exist back then, and a harpsichord would have been drowned out by Mendelssohn's "epic" chorus of over 150 singers, so he conducted from fortepiano. He couldn't find oboes d'caccia or oboes d'amore, so their parts were replaced by clarinets.
Mendelssohn, believing the 1st performance of SMP was in 1729 (it was actually in 1727), delayed his public concert until 1829 to mark the centennial.
The term used in the early 18th c. for this type of movement (and for the opening choral movements of cantatas) was "choral aria".
A "chorale prelude" had the liturgical function of preparing the congregation for singing of the chorale being preluded. Hence, the name "chorale prelude."
This movement is followed by a narrative recitative, not by any congregational singing.
@kozzzh I quote Jesus "Father forgive him, for he knows not what he says". God is the creator of all beauty. Darwin tried to explain it away without God, and failed miserably. Zero evidence 150 years later. How could overwhelming beauty have evolved out of chaos? Unscientific. The only way evolution goes is downhill. Without God, all withers away and dies. Bach would be ashamed that people have turned to worshiping him, rather than God.
Sorry but for me god is just a cultural concept created by human mind and JSB is the living Genius. And after all why shold I worship someone who doesn't need my respet if he's so incredibly great? No offence, I just stand on my opinion.
"There is not sufficient love and goodness in the world to permit us to give some of it away to imaginary beings." F. Nietzsche.
F. Nietzsche never experienced God's limitless love, which causes a person to love his enemies, and even die as a martyr while praying, "father forgive them". You won't find that love in the world, but in God. As far as God being imaginary (some gods are imaginary), he demands that anyone approaching him believe first, then he will answer. Any TRUE Christian is acting scientifically, in response to contacting God, and receiving something supernatural from God.
Well, that's your point. I should say JSB always influenced me spiritually but not in the way that you may think. Thanks Bach, we got freedom of thought here. )
@kozzzh and who are you to say that? That foolish belief of yours will lead you to hell. You're thinking that you are somebody but nobody. There is none righteous, no not one. God is not mocked remember that.
@kozzzh what god? certainly not the misanthropic villain of the old testament or the magician jew of the new testament? lol if there were a god, he'd laugh at our ancestors' narcissistic and incompetent attempts at anthropomorphization
@11308kj That may be the case. However, certainly not the humanized(dehumanized?) god described in that old book of myths. Certainly not the nondescript Palestinian jew who died on the cross,in the same way most criminals of the day were.But if you mean the intangible ethereal force that cannot be found in the bible or any other fable, I may shrug my shoulders and say "sure".
@kozzzh How dare you be so downright disrespectful? You may have your own beliefs just as anyone but to make these provocative comments is to shit on this music, to shit on Bach and most importantly to shit on something that millions of people hold sacred and very dear. Shame on you.
J. S. Bach is my God! You can blame me for disrespect for your religion but don't even dare to suppose that I can say something against his divine music. Hypothetically, if your church for some strange reason will declare Bach to be a heretic, you will turn away from him and I will remain devoted. That's the difference between us!
@kozzzh For a start Bach was a better Christian than most present day people could hope to be but more to the point this is not solely a piece of music. It was written for the express purpose of communicating God's message. For that reason it holds immense personal and spiritual importance to a huge number of people and that must be respected whatever your or my faith. As someone said, Bach himself would be deeply offended by you undermining a very considered effort and message on his part!
I understand your opinion, but absolutely can not accept the attitude towards his music merely based on its cultural function. Music is irrational, it's pure magic, the element. Can you say why so many people of absolutely different cultural traditions all over the world admire his heritage? There's no cultural tradition that can own the monopoly on spiritual values, this is the individual prerogative of a human being.
@kozzzh Yes I would be the first to agree but I never insinuated that Christianity should 'monopolise' music. What I object to is your choice of piece from which to impose your beliefs. If this was a secular work then you'd be within your right to voice your opinions but given that it's religious piece (no matter which religion) it's tactless to so vociferously oppose it. We're lucky to live in a society with freedom of speech but we therefore have a duty to respect each others chosen beliefs.
My friend upon hearing I wasn't familiar with Matthew's passion said, "Here, let me show you just the first song." And sent it to me...and just, wow. To this day it remains my favorite of all his music. So powerful it grabs the listener. Bach is great.
is this compressed?
pshycberrycherry 2 weeks ago
there is nothing remarkable about music , just play the right notes at the right time and the instrument plays itself - J S Bach - on a crappy day perhaps...and he had many did he not..
reviveramesh 1 month ago
I don't believe in god, but I believe in music :)
bacogare 1 month ago in playlist J.S. Bach - St. Matthew Passion, BWV 244
@bacogare believe,,,,He is there1
TheGoomow 6 days ago in playlist Bach Choral Music
I believed that's the kind of love I had...
sstargazer004 1 month ago
May I have a question?
Why can't resist this video on "My Favorite List"?
Do you restrict or prohibit?
cdebussy01 3 months ago
oh lordy
Yorishiro 5 months ago in playlist Yorishiro's Favorited Videos
this is my favorite version
philateliceun 7 months ago 9
Concerning the size of the forces, it's true that Bach was forced by economics to use few instruments but in a famous letter to the St. Thomas administration where he stated the number of instruments and singers he would prefer...a group totaling around 50.
However, small scaled performances can have surprising dramatic impact. I have to admit that I was stunned by the power and strength of Koopman's Messiah with a chorus and orchestra of only 16 each!
michsturge 7 months ago
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wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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@michsturge Around 50? Bach never said anything of the sort. In his memo to the Leipzig town council he
talks about the number of singers needed for CONCURRENT performances at THREE of the town's main churches. He says each of the three 4-part choirs needs 3 singers per part (= 12 singers per choir per church). He then concludes that a GRAND TOTAL of 36 singers (3 x 12 = 36) is needed to supply THREE choirs for the THREE churches.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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@michsturge Only 1 of the 3 churches would hear concerted music, e.g, cantatas. The other 2 would hear only motets or simple chorales needing only continuo.
Bach's memo lists the instruments needed for concerted music: 2 or 3 violin 1, 2 or 3 violin 2, 2 viola 1,
2 viola 2, 2 cellos, 1 violone, 2-3 oboes, 1-2 bassoons, 3 trumpets, 1 timpani, 2 flutes.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@michsturge NOTE: Bach's memo is talking only about what he needs in reserve, not what he must throw at every performance. E.g., not every cantata has a part for trumpet, timpani or viola 2!
Based on the numbers Bach's states in his memo, a cantata scored for 4-part chorus plus the usual strings requires 12 singers plus AT MOST 11 string players = 23 musicians, not 50.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@michsturge The notion that Bach, or any other Baroque composer, would write music that required more musicians than he had on hand is simply not logical.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
Every note a lie in this performance.
Yes, the world is vulgar, you can say that again.
DrMerkwuerdichliebe 8 months ago
bach always makes everything better when im having a really crappy day, his music really fullfills my heart, mind and soul. thank you for posting such a beautiful, clear, and perfect recording of it.
tenordaniel1980 8 months ago 9
@tenordaniel1980 you are so right...Bach takes your mind and spirit into a higher dimension
rh7189 8 months ago
I still think Harnoncourt's 1971 period instrument recording is the best overall. Gardiner may be a bit too peppy, but Richter is simply way too slow, his orchestra is too large, singers sing with too much vibrato for Baroque music. The interpretation is also over romanticized. Richter is a throw back to the early era of Bach performance before musicological research has uncovered correct performing practices.
michsturge 9 months ago
@michsturge I agree with all you said about Richter. Fortunately, Bach as performed by Richter is a thing of the past. But as you are mindful of Baroque performance practice and musicological research, it's doubtful Bach had in mind this kind of big, dramatic, monumental sound Gardiner strives for. The design of the performing parts Bach used for this work clearly show that he used one voice per part. I could say much more about this, but it wouldn't fit in YouTube comments.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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"Why is the world so vulgar? Can't we just enjoy one of the great pieces of its kind of all time?"
Agreed. Keep music out of politics, and keep politics out of music.
MrNeilSuper 9 months ago
With music like this, Bach's church must had loved him.
readyornot90 9 months ago
@readyornot90 Of course!
AdmRomulus 9 months ago
@readyornot90 The exact contrary, unfortunately, happened. His hierarchy was dissatisfied with his work: too complex, too theatrical, too sophisticated. And, in a certain manner, they were right: was should we think of the religious merits of a piece of music so beautiful, so inspired, so deep, that decades after even decadent atheists (like me) listen to it for their sole pleasure ? Unadorned chorals and recitatives: that's want they would expect.
pierrot79 9 months ago
@pierrot79 If you think Bach was consided theatrical, you should hear Telemann's church pieces. The Lutheran clergy of the early 18th c. was divided as to whether "opera" was appropriate in church music. Strong arguments were made for and against. But it was Bach's Leipzig predecessor Johann Kuhnau, not Bach, who began the practice in the Leipzig churches of presenting "operatic" passion music. They were used to it by the time Bach took over.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 NO. You think the Leipzig churchgoers expected unadorned chorales and recitatives? Bach's predecessor, Johann Kuhnau, presented adorned chorales! They would have recognized Kuhnau's style in Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring"! They were used to it! You seem to think they didn't want opera but wanted recitatives, but recitatives are a feature of OPERA! Telemann also used arias and recitatives in his church music.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 Music was a vitally important feature of the Lutheran liturgy. You are quite mistaken if you think Lutheran congregations of Bach's era expected only unadorned chorales and recitatives. Do you really think Leipzig supported a Latin school (St. Thomas school) to train 50 boys in music just to perform unadorned chorales and recitatives!!! You don't even seem to realize that recitatives and arias go hand in hand, and that BOTH are feature of OPERA!
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 A year after the 1st performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the author of the libretto, the Leipzig poet Picander, published a cycle of cantata poetry for the Leipzig churches and wrote in the preface: "I flatter myself that the lack of poetic charm may be compensated for by the loveliness of the music of our incomparable Capellmeister Johann Sebastian Bach."
How do you reconcile that with your notions?
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 Bach and the other candidates for the Leipzig post each had to compose and perform cantatas as part of their audition for the post. Bach provided two cantatas for his audition. If "his hierarchy" didn't like what they heard, then why did they hire him? Do you think the other candidates supplied only "unadorned chorales and recitatives"?
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 You are so misinformed. The term "cantata" was originally applied only to Italian secular OPERA, the features of which are ARIAS and RECITATIVES. Bach did not introduce operatic features into Leipzig church music. This had already been done by his predecessor, Johann Kuhnau, who directed the music of the Leipzig main churches from 1701 until his death in 1722! Kuhnau also composed operas for the Leipzig opera!
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 Originally, concerted church music /w opera features such as arias & recitatives was known by terms such as "church music", "church pieces" & "concerto" & "sacred concerto". Eventually, the term "cantata", which had originally been applied only to Italian secular opera, was also applied to church cantatas because it had become common for church pieces to employ operatic devices like arias and rectitatives. Bach did not invent this. He was merely following a TREND!
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@wcbroccoli "Bach did not invent this. He was merely following a TREND!"
Yes, Indeed. But this trend was not tasted by all, especially Lutheran church.
pierrot79 7 months ago
@pierrot79 Oh, yes it was. Just look at the Lutheran church pieces of his contemporaries! E.g., Telemann. The term "cantata" was originally applied to Italian opera. How do you think it came to be applied to Lutheran church pieces? The modern German cantata came about in 1700 (when Bach was 15), in Saxe-Weissenfels, not far from Weimar. Operatic passion music entered the Leipzig liturgy BEFORE Bach, in the works of Bach's Thomaskantor predecessor, Johann Kuhnau.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@wcbroccoli I completely agree with the fact that operatic style was used in church music (oratorio).
What I was saying is that the STYLE of Bach was not to the taste of the church in Leipzig. It was the music of Handel and Telemann that was expected by the church leaders, not the highly ornamented counterpoint of Bach.
Just compare the Messiah or the Creation and Bach passions ! For having played both Messiah and St. Mat., I can testify they have little in common.
pierrot79 7 months ago
@pierrot79 Every serious candidate for the post (which some council members viewed more as a teaching post than a musical directorship!) had to present 2 audition cantatas that fit the Leipzig liturgy. If the judges didn't like Bach's audtion pieces, then why did they hire him? BTW, Telemann had already withdrawn his application before Bach entered, and Handel did not apply at all!
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 The St Matthew Passion is tailored to fit Leipzig's Good Friday liturgy. The Messiah wouldn't fit the Leipzig liturgy at all. Neither would Hadyn's Creation! Most of Messiah's choruses are arrangements of Italian language love duets Handel had composed a few months before; you can still hear the original duet texture in some of the choruses. You don't seem to know the difference between public concert pieces and litugical music. .
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 Messiah and Creation are public concert pieces, not litugical music. You must think the St. Matthew Passion is in 2 parts to allow for a concert intermission. It was to allow for a sermon; text of the closing aria of part 1 and of the opening of the 2nd part were selected to fit the sermon. And you probably think everyone was supposed to applaud at the end; in fact, the Passion music was neither the beginning nor the end of the service; it was followed by a Latin motet!
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 You don't seem to realize that 1/2 the council members wanted a teacher, not a musician. You seem to think everyone on the council had the same ideas. Did you know there were two councils? You have no idea what "was to the taste of the church in Leipzig." You don't even know that Leipzig had 4 main churches, not 1. You don't even seem to know Passion music is, or what is the difference in between public & liturgical Passion music. You seem to think everything is concert music.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 When Bach was hired in 1723, composers had not stopped using what you naively call "highly ornamented counterpoint" in church music. His predecessor had used it. Even your Telemann used it in his own church music. Messiah and Creation would not have fit the liturgy of Leipzig's churchES or any other Lutheran church of Bach's era.
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
@pierrot79 A year after the 1st performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the author of the libretto, the Leipzig poet Picander, published a cycle of cantata poetry for the Leipzig churches and wrote in the preface: "I flatter myself that the lack of poetic charm may be compensated for by the loveliness of the music of our incomparable Capellmeister Johann Sebastian Bach."
How do you reconcile Picander's remarks with your notions about "the taste of the church in Leipzig"?
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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@readyornot90 A year after the 1st performance of Bach's St. Matthew Passion, the author of the libretto, the Leipzig poet Picander, published a cycle of cantata poetry for the Leipzig churches and wrote in the preface: "I flatter myself that the lack of poetic charm may be compensated for by the loveliness of the music of our incomparable Capellmeister Johann Sebastian Bach."
wcbroccoli 7 months ago
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This is really a nice presentation, but I prefer Karl Richter´s version.
xavnet2 10 months ago
This is really a nice presentation, but I prefer K. Richter´s version.
xavnet2 10 months ago
Thank you for posting this beautiful chorale.
justmusicandme 10 months ago
simplemente perfecto!
AuattDaniel 10 months ago
You didn't at all read Lev. 18, did you? These people were hardly 'innocent.' Of course I've read most of the old testament.
This wasn't only a few people doing the things mentioned here. It was the norm of the society, so children were taught this early on. In early Jewish culture, if a person slept with his neighbor they would both be killed. If it were only a few people, only they would be killed. When it is a whole culture, they must all be killed.
Best example of this-Sodom and Gomorrah.
Buggy793 10 months ago
Evil is the god who glorifies the slaughtering of innocent women, children and animals. Nothing can justify the brutalities described in Old Testament!
kozzzh 10 months ago
@kozzzh
Except for the long list of their own sins listed in Leviticus 18...
Sacrificing children, having sexual affairs with EVERYONE and animals. God didn't want His people copying them, so he told them to completely destroy that disgusting society (they had 500 years -while the Israelites were in Egypt- to figure it out).
That, my friend, is a just God.
Buggy793 10 months ago
@Buggy793
Did you read Bible? Do you remember how his people conquered Canaan? You live in 21 century and still think that childslayer is a hero??? And what wrong have these animals done? WTF???
kozzzh 10 months ago
) It sounds like Pilatus' "What is Truth". Evil (not in your mystical meaning but in my humanistic) is when a living creature is killed in the name of ideological conception or to please some imaginary being.
kozzzh 10 months ago
You don't here anything like this from Islam, or Buddhism.
51362879 11 months ago
We sure as hell (pardon the term) don't have to interpret this music within context of some institutionalized dogma. Wherever you stand in terms of your religious views, one thing is clear: this is the product of the human mind and "spirit". When I hear bach's music I almost feel like there is some hope for us as a species on this fragile planet.
darklordofthepith 11 months ago
Been looking for this version!
divinetriangle763 1 year ago
This is the version
BeyondWrittenWords 1 year ago
Thumbs up if Richard Dawkins sent you here?
mime454 1 year ago
Too fast.
cousinjk 1 year ago
@cousinjk so you make a better recording of it yourself.
FrPhen 1 year ago
@cousinjk then you try to do a better job
FrPhen 1 year ago
This music is great like our God....
SDG
AA
LeoAsztalos 1 year ago
I love it! Ich liebe es!
tabacki1 1 year ago
I would put God on a higher plain then Bach. After all, he gave us life,and the gift
of music. I give him praise for all things.
Psyche777able 1 year ago
Absolutely amazing!
jackooboy1 1 year ago
i used to be an atheist until i listened to Bach's music
davlor86 1 year ago
wonderful children's choir
ysendamaxtonesmith 2 years ago
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the great version ever played. wonderful. i cry everytime i decided to listen this passion, and this masterpiece, created by the "la cima del talento creador musical humano" for 2 orchestras and 8 voices and boy's choir...........
acanthoscelides 2 years ago
Posiblemente la cima del talento creador musical humano.
paradoxicus 2 years ago
Why is the world so vulgar? Can't we just enjoy one of the great pieces of its kind of all time?
hourlynewscaster 2 years ago 21
@hourlynewscaster
Of course we can! That's why youtube has this great option "spam" !
vanderbilt887 2 years ago
@hourlynewscaster That's asking for the impossible.
roman1akid 1 year ago
@hourlynewscaster Never, EVER put it past a hater of Christianity to suppress his urge to take the smallest opportunity to bash it. Virtually no one who espouses an anthropocentric view can abide anything that offends his ego.
MiloDC 1 year ago
@hourlynewscaster I wholly agree with you, but I think that is exactly what is the point of the debate. Is this music that we can just listen to and enjoy, or must we hear it within the context of God and Christ and the testimony of his crucifixion according to St. Mathew, as written in the Bible (which is how Bach would have wanted this piece to be remembered).
b0ttomzone 1 year ago
@hourlynewscaster Life is brutal and filthy in many cases, and people who wants to describe it, must be vulgar. But some pieces, like this one, let's us to leave the world for a moment and reach something higher. If I would be a believer, I'd say... Heaven.
Oskareczekeczek 10 months ago
@hourlynewscaster We humans are vulgar. And yet, one of the most gifted amongst us vulgars managed to write this roughly 300 years ago.
mmenchu 10 months ago
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Quibbling over the use of the word 'epic'...
Lol, grow up cockucker. And enjoy the music.
battlerags 2 years ago
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cockucker
sxs2289 2 years ago
gracias excelente version sino la mejor
javierpe9103 2 years ago
Beutiful
voodooridah 2 years ago 3
Very nice interpretation by John Eliot Gardiner. Sound quality is ok too. Thanks for posting.
josefk64 2 years ago 2
Amen.Amen.Amen.
debartzen 2 years ago
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
As you can see, the Passion was not conceived as a concert piece.
The Passion was in 2 parts, not to allow for a concert intermission, but for a strategically placed 1 hour sermon!
And when the Passion ended, the congregation didn't applaud and go home. They listened to a motet!
Then a collect prayer.
Then a Bible verse.
Then they sang a hymn.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Bach dedicated hid life and talents to God so God gave him the greatest gifts that we can only imagin..........
rockergyi 2 years ago
It would seem to me that he dedicated his life to improving the talents he came by naturally, and was thereby able to compose such wonderful music as this.
BarronTD 2 years ago
Kriegt Euch wieder ein, Kinder. Es ist Musik, große Musik, micht weniger, aber auf jeden Fall nicht mehr.
klausthemusician 2 years ago
Mmm and music like this may be one of the only beneficial things Christianity has done for the world.
cherryantacid421 2 years ago
hahaha... I like that.
csheff1014 2 years ago 4
Well thanks.
cherryantacid421 2 years ago
I would say Amen but I would think it slightly inappropriate.
rolytheclown123 2 years ago
lol!
cherryantacid421 2 years ago
@cherryantacid421 Surely Bach would not have agreed with you...
MusicaErgoSum93 1 year ago
@cherryantacid421 Certainly, but I also know really friendly catholic priest who love their flock. I think they are in the minority.
tabacki1 1 year ago
@cherryantacid421 you didn't like the inquisition or the christian silence during the holocaust or the bible-supported slavery and segregation or the burning to stake the heretics and women? what about the geocentric model of the universe? what about anti-stem cell research? shooting pro-choice doctors? nothing? you're a hard man to please. good.
xtrmsprts 1 year ago
@cherryantacid421 LOL! Bach's music is but one aspect of an entire culture whose artistic, political, and scientific advances (yes, scientific -- most of the West's most prominent scientists and mathematicians proudly embraced some religion, usually Christianity) are clearly rooted in that belief system. You irreligious fist-shakers have longed wished it not so; better to minimize Christianity's positive impact than to endure the pain of reconciling your views with the truth.
MiloDC 1 year ago
@cherryantacid421 haha
NovemVmbrae666 11 months ago
This recording is absolutely fantastic. JEG's interpretation cannot be faulted.
ESchumm 2 years ago
It can be faulted: (1) tempi are too fast and not based on one crotchet per sec,
(2) timbre is too thin, (3) added mordents and trills are amateurism and go against what Bach wrote (4), the chorale [trebles] is insufificient to the gravity of the opening to this magnum opus, which is actually a choral-prelude as all organists will recognise, and (5) there is an over-emphasis on the first beat of each bar.
This interpretation lacks equipoise.
AndrewOrgelspieler 2 years ago
it may be useful for you, as an organist, to relate the form of this chorus to the Chorale-Preludes you are familiar with. To the rest of us, though, it probably makes better sense to regard an organ chorale-prelude to be a weak imitation of such a cantata movement, many of which has a chorale strand embedded inside a rich choral fantasy.
The problems with tempo are another matter; perhaps our generation requires faster speeds.
Arch5280 2 years ago
I am not analysing this chorus for me, but intend for this to help you understand the composer's rationale and how this epic piece might have been understood by contemporaneous listeners.
It is one movement, part of a story
The cantata form is utterly and entirely different to this piece, and is a many-movement work. That they both relate to a chorale is insufficient to claim a form nexus.
AndrewOrgelspieler 2 years ago
"Epic piece"? I doubt Bach or anyone of the early 18th c. thought in such terms.
The original performing parts indicate that he performed this 1 voice per part. Monumentality was surely not on his mind.
This movement is a choral aria, not a chorale prelude. Chorale preludes were followed by the congregation singing the chorale that was preluded. Hence, the term "chorale prelude".
The entire piece is a passion oratorio.
Compare to Bach's Xmas oratorio.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The St. Matthew Passion is scored for double chorus and double orchestra (including double organ). The Christmas Oratorio consists of six straight-forward cantatas, meant to be performed on six separate occasions in Christmas and New Year. The St. Matthew Passion was indeed a big one, even in Bach's day. It was probably not performed more than twice by Bach, and then not again until Mendelssohn revived it in the 1820s. It took him five years to set it up.
Gilmaris 2 years ago
Furthermore, it is irrelevant whether or not Bach thought of it as an epic piece, or intended it as such. What is or is not epic is decided by posterity, and the St. Matthew Passion is indeed epic.
Gilmaris 2 years ago
So YOU say. It might sound "epic" when performed by large choruses like Gardiner's.
But "epic" is not what Bach had in mind.
Original sources make it clear that he used 1 principal singer for each line --meaning a total of 4 with 4 extra voices for SJP, and a group of 8 for SMP--plus a few extras to sing small dramatic roles and certain hymn melodies. Even those experts who dispute this (largely for ideological or personal reasons) suggest an outer limit of 12 voices for SJP & 24 for SMP.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
I think we use "epic" differently.. You seem to be using "epic" in the sense of sheer physical scale. But Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor is also an epic piece, even though it consists of only one part (or two, if you count the man at the billows). It is the quality of the music itself which makes it epic, not how many is required to perform it. A crappy piece, on the other hand, won't be epic no matter how many performers you have.
Gilmaris 2 years ago
Yes. In colloquial usage, esp.among adolescents, "epic" can mean "really good."
But "epic" as defined in the dictionary has nothing to do with how good something is perceived to be.
It either refers to type of poem, or
to something extending beyond the usual or ordinary in size or scope.
Yes, SMP is a long (3 hours) piece for a concert, but not unusually long for liturgical passion music of Bach's day.
It was merely a part of the 6 hour Good Friday vespers service....
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The Passion was divided in 2 parts, not to allow for a "concert break", but to allow the strategic insertion of a theologically appropriate hymn & 1 hr. sermon.
After Passion part 2 ended, they did not applaud and go home. Instead, they listened to a Latin motet. Then a prayer. Then a bible verse. Then sang a hymn and went home for supper.
But today, even when SMP is heard in a church, it's treated as a concert event /w intermission. When the passion ends, everyone applauds & goes home.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
@Gilmaris
don't you mean "bellows"?
sunflower46553 8 months ago
Posterity can no longer make arbitrary decisions about the interpretation of Baroque music. We are guided by research and developments in the field of Baroque performance practice.
If you believe this is an "epic piece" in the sense of the "epic movie" or "epic film score", then you have a very distorted idea the composer's intentions for this work and the resources needed to perform it.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The composer's intentions have nothing to do with it. Epic pieces do not come about because the composer INTENDS to write an epic piece. What makes a piece epic is the quality, as appreciated by posterity. If the Matthew Passion had only been appreciated in Bach's time by Bach's culture, it would not be epic no matter how grand the people of the time thought it was. It is precisely because it stands out in musical history that makes it epic.
Gilmaris 2 years ago
Again, what does the composer's intentions have to do with it? Many composers do indeed sit down and say, "ok, now I'm going to compose something EPIC!" But that's not what makes it epic. I could easily write a crappy but huge orchestral splasher for 200 parts including 80 trumpets and 30 timpanies, but unless my composition has an epic QUALITY to it, it won't be epic no matter how many parts or famous performers I could get to perform them.
Gilmaris 2 years ago
On the other hand, a composer could sit down and vent about the misfortunes of his life in a piano piece, and though he did not intend or expect it, it could still become an epic if the quality of the composition was great enough. Your arguments indicate that I have somehow used the size of the orchestration or the composer's intent as basis for saying that SMP is epic, but I have done nothing of the sort. In fact, I have repeatedly pointed out that that is what I am NOT doing.
Gilmaris 2 years ago
You have repeatedly misused the term "epic". The term has nothing to do with greatness.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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What you have repeatedly done is misuse the term "epic". An "epic composition" will likely be very long but won't necessarly be great.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Again, the adjective "epic" has nothing to do with perceived quality, except in the minds of adolescents who misuse the term.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
We will make no progress in this discussion as long as you insist on misusing the term "epic", which has nothing to do with greatness.
An "epic" is a long of narrative poem, often about heroic deeds.
The adjective "epic" refers to something extending beyond the usual or ordinary especially in size or scope.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Bach's passions continued to be performed in Leipzig for a few years after his death until the taste in religious poetry changed.
But his motets based on psalms & hymns, not poetry, continued to be performed in Leipzig long after his death. Mozart heard "Singet dem Herrn" in Leipzig for the first time in 1789.
Mendelssohn conducted the 1st public CONCERT performance of SMP OUTSIDE of Leipzig.
SMP is not a concert piece, but a church piece tailored to the Leipzig liturgy.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Bach wrote several double chorus pieces (e.g. certain motets & cantatas). But no matter how many "choruses" were involved, the resources did not increase. Each chorus still employed 1 voice per part. We know because we have the performing parts. The people who sang the solos also sang the choruses.
The incomplete record shows SMP was performed AT LEAST FOUR times during Bach's tenure in Leipzig (1723-1750): 1727, 1729, 1736, and at least once again in the 1740s.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
I believe Roger Norrington's Orchestra of the Age of Englightenment has actually performed Mendelssohn's 1829 public concert edition of Bach's SMP on instruments of Mendelssohn's day.
Chamber organs didn't exist back then, and a harpsichord would have been drowned out by Mendelssohn's "epic" chorus of over 150 singers, so he conducted from fortepiano. He couldn't find oboes d'caccia or oboes d'amore, so their parts were replaced by clarinets.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Mendelssohn, believing the 1st performance of SMP was in 1729 (it was actually in 1727), delayed his public concert until 1829 to mark the centennial.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The term used in the early 18th c. for this type of movement (and for the opening choral movements of cantatas) was "choral aria".
A "chorale prelude" had the liturgical function of preparing the congregation for singing of the chorale being preluded. Hence, the name "chorale prelude."
This movement is followed by a narrative recitative, not by any congregational singing.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
"The problems with tempo are another matter..."
This tempo sounds moderate to me. If you think this is fast, listen to McCreesh's version (on YouTube).
The notion of "right" tempo depends on what you're used to; if you're used to Richter's SMP, you'll think everyone else's SMP is too fast.
"... perhaps our generation requires faster speeds. "
Do you think Bach's generation would have thought this too fast, and if so, why?
CPE Bach said his father liked to play fast.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
A weak imitation? How so? Bach's organ chorale preludes treat the chorale in polyphony as complex as his opening choral movements.
And if the opening movement of SMP is
a "Chorale-Prelude", exactly what chorale is it the prelude to?
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The tempo & beat stress sound fine to me.
"Timbre is too thin"? Original performing parts show Bach performed this 1 voice per part !!!
The "mordents" are spelled out (not abbreviated) in Bach's manuscript.
The "soprano in ripieno" (what you called "trebles") have same range as the other sopranos & are doubled at unison by both organs.
Bach would call this is a choral aria, not a chorale prelude. By definition, a chorale PRELUDE would be followed by singing of the chorale.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Bach is MUCH GREATER than god, I prefer to worship his Music
kozzzh 3 years ago 4
hahaha... i like that
csheff1014 3 years ago
Amen to that!
terryregnar 2 years ago
@kozzzh I quote Jesus "Father forgive him, for he knows not what he says". God is the creator of all beauty. Darwin tried to explain it away without God, and failed miserably. Zero evidence 150 years later. How could overwhelming beauty have evolved out of chaos? Unscientific. The only way evolution goes is downhill. Without God, all withers away and dies. Bach would be ashamed that people have turned to worshiping him, rather than God.
light4darkness 1 year ago
@light4darkness
Sorry but for me god is just a cultural concept created by human mind and JSB is the living Genius. And after all why shold I worship someone who doesn't need my respet if he's so incredibly great? No offence, I just stand on my opinion.
"There is not sufficient love and goodness in the world to permit us to give some of it away to imaginary beings." F. Nietzsche.
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh
F. Nietzsche never experienced God's limitless love, which causes a person to love his enemies, and even die as a martyr while praying, "father forgive them". You won't find that love in the world, but in God. As far as God being imaginary (some gods are imaginary), he demands that anyone approaching him believe first, then he will answer. Any TRUE Christian is acting scientifically, in response to contacting God, and receiving something supernatural from God.
light4darkness 1 year ago
@light4darkness
Well, that's your point. I should say JSB always influenced me spiritually but not in the way that you may think. Thanks Bach, we got freedom of thought here. )
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh and who are you to say that? That foolish belief of yours will lead you to hell. You're thinking that you are somebody but nobody. There is none righteous, no not one. God is not mocked remember that.
xiaolong143 1 year ago
@light4darkness
Chaos is nothing more than interpretation. Beauty is interpreted chaos. Yes, beauty can evolve out of chaos.
agapeisme 1 year ago
@kozzzh lol that sound retarded. God the creator of the whole universe and Bach The creator of The holy spirit of the music
thegoddescomposer 1 year ago
@thegoddescomposer
"Bach The creator of The holy spirit of the music" - totally agree with this passage! Peace!
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh Hahaha, awesome quote.
starbreez3 1 year ago
@kozzzh The irony is, I think Bach would have been terribly offended at that.
Dorias77 1 year ago
@kozzzh You're right dude! This is real music, god is for some real, music for everyone.
Fabianoey 1 year ago
@Fabianoey Thanx man! Bach bless you! ;)
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh The world of Bach and all Classic music bless you to;-)!
Fabianoey 1 year ago
@kozzzh what god? certainly not the misanthropic villain of the old testament or the magician jew of the new testament? lol if there were a god, he'd laugh at our ancestors' narcissistic and incompetent attempts at anthropomorphization
xtrmsprts 1 year ago
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FrPhen 1 year ago
@kozzzh The God that gave Bach the talent to create such a beautiful peace of music first performed in a church intended to bless and worship God.
11308kj 1 year ago 2
@11308kj That may be the case. However, certainly not the humanized(dehumanized?) god described in that old book of myths. Certainly not the nondescript Palestinian jew who died on the cross,in the same way most criminals of the day were.But if you mean the intangible ethereal force that cannot be found in the bible or any other fable, I may shrug my shoulders and say "sure".
xtrmsprts 1 year ago
GOD GAVE BACH THE TALENT TO MAKE THIS BEAUTIFUL MUSIC!
11308kj 1 year ago
@11308kj
Who gave Hitler his evil mind? Maybe Satan? )
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh
What is meant by "evil"?
baptist1611 10 months ago
@kozzzh How dare you be so downright disrespectful? You may have your own beliefs just as anyone but to make these provocative comments is to shit on this music, to shit on Bach and most importantly to shit on something that millions of people hold sacred and very dear. Shame on you.
karmmanuel1 1 year ago
@karmmanuel1
J. S. Bach is my God! You can blame me for disrespect for your religion but don't even dare to suppose that I can say something against his divine music. Hypothetically, if your church for some strange reason will declare Bach to be a heretic, you will turn away from him and I will remain devoted. That's the difference between us!
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh For a start Bach was a better Christian than most present day people could hope to be but more to the point this is not solely a piece of music. It was written for the express purpose of communicating God's message. For that reason it holds immense personal and spiritual importance to a huge number of people and that must be respected whatever your or my faith. As someone said, Bach himself would be deeply offended by you undermining a very considered effort and message on his part!
karmmanuel1 1 year ago
@karmmanuel1
I understand your opinion, but absolutely can not accept the attitude towards his music merely based on its cultural function. Music is irrational, it's pure magic, the element. Can you say why so many people of absolutely different cultural traditions all over the world admire his heritage? There's no cultural tradition that can own the monopoly on spiritual values, this is the individual prerogative of a human being.
kozzzh 1 year ago
@kozzzh Yes I would be the first to agree but I never insinuated that Christianity should 'monopolise' music. What I object to is your choice of piece from which to impose your beliefs. If this was a secular work then you'd be within your right to voice your opinions but given that it's religious piece (no matter which religion) it's tactless to so vociferously oppose it. We're lucky to live in a society with freedom of speech but we therefore have a duty to respect each others chosen beliefs.
karmmanuel1 1 year ago
@kozzzh May Our Lord Jesus Christ rebuke you.
elijah7k 11 months ago
My friend upon hearing I wasn't familiar with Matthew's passion said, "Here, let me show you just the first song." And sent it to me...and just, wow. To this day it remains my favorite of all his music. So powerful it grabs the listener. Bach is great.
cherryantacid421 3 years ago
Sorry to be a pedant, but its the Matthew Passion not Matthew's!
ab7222 2 years ago
Technically it's Matthäuspassion, and I'm German, so fuck off.
cherryantacid421 2 years ago
The greatest piece of music ever written. Just brilliant.
GS336 3 years ago 6
I totally agree!
csheff1014 3 years ago
I believe that Bach was truly inspired directly by God, and he had a strong belief in God, himself.
bgwoodjr 3 years ago 2
To many of those who love Bach's music this presentation, I am sure, is a true relief.
Kallestina
Kallestina 3 years ago 3
Thnx for your comment, I think this recording is, indeed, one of the best!
bgwoodjr 3 years ago 2