Everybody calm down I'm writing a movie about the Great Man O War and then another one about Man O War son War Admiral that i will send to Disney and or warner bros
@horseuni345 Me too. I read a book about him way back in elementary school, and then I always wanted to be a jockey. I always thought a movie should be made too. What a horse. After he died, his groom died shortly after.
Check how many horses were registered to run against Secretariat in his time compared to Ma O War's. Huge difference. But I TOTTALLY AGREE, Man O War should have a movie made about him!
there really needs to be a movie about man o war. fuck, ill pay for the god damn production because this horse deserves to have a movie about his magnificent career
Man o' War beat world records pulling up, carrying more weight than Secretariat, on slower tracks than Secretariat, wearing slower shoes than Secretariat, without modern advantages (i.e.- that STARTING GATE) Secretariat enjoyed. Oh, and he did beat that one Triple Crown winner by seven lengths under restraint...
If you like Secretariat more, good for you. But don't come to Man o' War videos making ridiculous claims based on times that Secretariat had an incredible advantage with.
The American arrogance and ignorance is famose . If a horse wins in USA, without ever leaving his country, , it automatically becomes the best in history. Out of Your Truman Show , out the Hollywood movies , in the real world, everyone knows ..the best horse ever (gallop) is the Italian " RIBOT ", the best trotter ever is Italian " VARENNE " the best jockey ever is the Italian " FRANKIE DETTORI." All people can check these names on internet and make an assessment of the results.
Man O War and Secretariat belong in the same league...What pisses me off is the delusional Zenyatta fans that equate Zen to Secretariat. They don't know wtf true greatness(like Man O War and Secretariat) is!
@Sydplayson ...Man O War was the best of a foal crop that numbered, what? 6000 or so??....Ridiculous argument since there's no way of fans of either horse to ever be proved right..
@JimSpoor Actually, it was 1,680. He also was the best of the crop before him, as he beat triple crown winner Sir Barton easily. MOW and Sec were neck to neck in the talent department, I just hate when people throw out times to justify their opinion, time is SO variable. Especially between eras like that.
both horses were greatest in their time. and greatest of all time. however, there is at least one measuring stick, the clock, from which they may compare. For each quarter mile, what was their time and who did it faster? Then figure out whether Man o War was still accelerating for each quarter mile. If he does, then he's in Secretariats league, if not - Secretariat sits with the God of Horses. Secretariat did this not once but at least twice in the triple crown - The Derby and Belmont.
We'll never know.Tracks are different.Horses are individuals,and have good days and bad days.I personally am a great fan of Man O'War and have a great deal of faith in his speed,strength and heart,but Secretariat was a great horse as well,and I think that each would have given the other a damn good run for the money.So why don't we just acknowledge the tremendous talents of both horses and stop squabbling over a question that will never be answered?
@darkfey1963 the question has been answered. the clock says it all and MOW would have been a great test until they got to the 1/2 mile marker; after that Secretariat would turn on the juice and would power away still accelerating until the end of the race. remember MOW's best mile and a half was four seconds slower. end of story.
I can't believe you are arguing over a HORSE!! I am sure there are plenty of more important subjects to argue over right now and use your energy towards!! Pathetic!
@bbmtge Actually I believe he does. Some people have stated he did in CIVIL discussions like this on RACING fora - probably that 1-5/8 at Belmont you disparage so much vs. an unofficial measure. Not sure; haven't looked at it myself. I know he held 1 at least 70 years.
@theOlLineRebel I do not disparage MOW in any way. I have stated, emphatically, that he was decades ahead of his time, his fractions were both unheard of in his day and for a long time to come, that he STILL holds a share of the Lawrence 1 5/8th's, that he was an absolute geneitc freak and a phenom as a sire. The issue I have always held is that the average MOW fan, including you, denigrates, distort and flat-out lies about Sec. Further, the challenge that MOW would have had in the modern era...
@theOlLineRebel ...would have been to run in a large, competitive field with much faster horses. Also, the distance and time for Sec in the Belmont at 1 5/8th's are a matter of record. Both races were on dirt and at Belmont. As stated, you must not know anything about the Woodbine Track to make the unsupported comment you did.
However, you are still calling me a "liar". How? About what have I lied?
If I'm denigrating Sec it's just the appearance in relative discussion as surely as you appear to do to MOW.
As for "matter of record" - whose record please? Bill Nack's? Every time there is some "factoid" rumour about Sec it revolves around Nack, including the "someone told me someone voted Sec 14" in the BH list. No-one ever corroborates that 3rd-hand info.
@bbmtge I don't think there is any question MOW would face better challenges. The point is, he was so far ahead of his contemporaries (and people knew it in their hearts to worship him as they did for 25+ years) that I have no doubt he'd be fighting highly competitively with the greats of "today". Frankly I think he had more sheer "machine" about him (no equipment, runaway, adversity) than Sec, and between carried speed and heart would win more than lose against him, if only by a nose.
@theOlLineRebel A very well constructed argument. I believe the advantage that Sec had over any competition was his ability to run a 1:09 and change 3/4 fraction while finishing in WR time, under a hand ride. The KD showed his ability to run wide and still post phenomenal fractions; 23 3/5tth's as much as 3 wide on the turn and a final coming off a very wide position at the quarter pole of 23 1/5th. I could state a lot more, but I think these are the things that go unnoticed.
Those are awesome, indeed. Secretariat WAS phenomenol on his many good days. I used to suspect he wasn't as high as #2, but I've pretty much abandoned that idea. There are a very few people who think Seattle Slew was better than all of them, and more now who think Citation was best, but I really don't think so. I have huge respect for them, and would've been excited to have experienced them, but I don't think they really had the sheer speed MOW and Sec had (as well as desire, etc).
You guys do remember that Man o' War raced in 1920? When tracks were slower and the horses had to wear heavy shoes instead of the light aluminum ones they do now? His times would actually be 2 - 3 seconds faster if put on a modern basis.
@AtashiBaka Suggest before you comment you do a couple of things. As far as tracks are concerned, provide the scientific research that backs up your absurd claim. Further, get the weights of the shoes from 1920 and the weights of the shoes form the '70's. Afterward, take the difference in weight and give me the percentage difference relative to an 1100 pound animal. Start with that. Until then, shut up, read and you may learn something.
If you visit the Kentucky Horsepark you will see the statues of both horses and Man O' War is bigger than Secretariat. Amazing. Both horses were 16.2 hands Man O' War was 1,150 lbs. and Secretariat was 1,175 lbs. Just another example of how inflated the Man O' War legacy has become. Just like people didn't want to see Hank Aaron surpass Babe Ruth's home run record, people can't stand the fact that Secretariat was a superior horse on the track. By the way, i don't count Barry Bonds steroid HR'S
@evyn10014 Man O' War was 16.2 hands, I don't know where you got your information. As for "what's the point"? The point is that MOW was NOT bigger than SECRETARIAT which is what the statues seem to want people to believe. SECRETARIAT weighed 25 lbs more than man O' War so, at the same 16.2 hands, SECRETARIAT was actually the bigger horse. Now, go take a nap.
@evyn10014 "She" bounces from room to room...I would say she posts nothing of substance but, in fact she simply lies and distorts. The funny thing is that she cant get anything straight, as mentoined prior, she just lies and distorts but, the real funny thing is that she keeps coming back. I do not understand how "she" can make such an idiot of herself yet have the audacity to keep posting. Very good stuff!!!
@bbmtge substance: For anyone interested in how MOW stacks up against other all-time greats...
He ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
There is no such thing as 16.5 hands. That would be 17.1. 17.5 hands would be 18.1. A hand is four inches. You might want to do some research yourself.
For anyone interested in how MOW stacks up against other all-time greats...
He ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
And most of the time he eased off or pulled up. All official DRF times, comparing the horses as 3 year olds. Cheers
@evyn10014 For anyone interested in the FACTS of Sec vs. MOW racing fractions; as follows : Sec FASTER at every fraction than MOW and in one case by some 20 lengths. Sec never ran 1 5/8th's miles on dirt, however his 1 5/8th's time pulling up in the Belmont best MOW by some 15 lengths. Unfortunatley the person who posted the above CRAP is nothing more than a PURE LIAR.
like they said at the start, hell to break, headache to handle, cannonpult to ride, really shows in my horse Comet, Admiral is the great grandfather of Comet and Man o war's temper comes out in Comets
If the panelists were good enough for the Blood Horse to choose to have on it, then they must have been respected, knowledgeable people who knew what the heck they were voting about. That's good enough for me. The only way they would be smart enough for Sec. worshippers was if they'd chosen Sec over MW, then they'd all be genius level. Sec. wasn't a bad horse but he wasn't the greatest. Deal with it.
@pattii55 You are an expert at avoiding the details. Answer the question posed...who were they, what were their credentials, who saw both horses run and, most important...what is the controversy surrounding the vote??? Stop ducking and answer the questions.
@bbmtge And you're an expert at making up details. I trust the Blood Horse to value their own integrety enough not to hire a panel of bozo's to decide such an important issue, knowing full well, Sec. fanatics like yourself would be ripping them a new one over it for years. I'm sure they chose carefully. I don't have to know names for myself. Obviously the panel was filled with more people who saw Sec run than MW and STILL voted him #1. Get over it. You lurking trolls are as thick headed as ever.
@pattii55 As alwasy, you refuse to answer the questions...WHY???...because you dont know the answers and you dont want to know the answers. The truth is that one of the panel voted Sec #14 thus assuring that MOW would be #1. Nack said that had he known this, he would have voted MOW #14. The entire vote is invalid as a result. Do your homework next time before making a fool of yourself. Further, ESPN voted SEc way ahead of MOW. So, you are caught in another LIE, just like every other Mow "fan".
@pattii55 And...of course...they did..."trsut" means you dont want to know the facts. By placing someone on the panel that voted Sec #14 so that MOW would be #1 shows hoe badly BH handled and chose the panel as well as to have accepted their vote. Now your just being plain STUPID!!!
Why all the Secretariat comments on a MOW page? No one dislikes Secretariat, or claims he wasn't great, and possibly the greatest.
What people don't appreciate is certain posters who can't say an opinion without insulting everyone and saying they're a bunch of liars. Quote a historical book, a race official, you're a liar, etc... Pretty silly.
An opinion is just an opinion. No matter who you are. "Best of all time" is a subjective opinion that will never have an answer.
@evyn10014 Dr. Fager was a short distance specialist. His own jockey said 10 furlongs was a stretch. Damascus beat him with rabbits. Anybody knows that. Suggest you look at competition performances instaed of hiding behind horse's names.
@bbmtge Fager was only good at short distances? Really? Let's check the DRF.
As a 3-year old Fager ran 1 1/4 in 159.4 to Secretariat's 159.2... 2/10th's slower... Wow. And the DRF lists his finish as a "Mild Drive" (Fager). Seems he could have run a bit faster than Sec if needed...
And as a 4-year old Fager ran 1 1/4 in 159.1, Brooklyn Handicap, carrying 135 lbs. Which beats Sec's time while giving the correct Weight for Age.
There are some "competition performances" for you.
@evyn10014 I ,still, find people like you funny. They make accusations of misinformation while being nothing more than liars and idiots. Which are you??? Or, are you a combination of both??? The Brooklyn handicap was won by DAMASCUS in 1:59 and 1/5...not DR. FAGER. Dr. Fager ran 10f in 1:59 and 4/5th's as a 3YO and 1:59 and 3/5th's as a 4YO under 132 lbs. Sec ran 1:59 and 2/5th's in a 13 horse field, brekaing last and running very wide for nearly the entire race including a 23 sec final quarter.
@bbmtge Learn to read Gramps. I never said Fager won the Brooklyn Handicap, I merely pointed out his time was better than Sec's at the same distance giving weight for age. And I was pointing that out because you said Fager couldn't run for any distance, which clearly isn't the case -- all you have to do is look at the records to show he was competitive to 1 1/4. Later skater.
@bbmtge Fager ran 1 1/4 in 1:59 4/5 as a 3-year old at the NH Sweep Classic which he won easily. Sec ran 1 1/4 as a 3 year old in 1:59 2/5 in the KD which he won handily as well.
But holy crap you were right for once about the Brooklyn Handicap that was Damascus' time. All apologies.
Doesn't change my point. As 3-year olds Fager ran 1 1/4 about the same as Secretariat. Which negates your argument that Fager only good at short distances. A bigger mistake on your part I believe.
@evyn10014 Dr. Fager was a short distance specialist as per Baeza. Baez'a words were that they stretched him at 10 furlongs. Never said he wasn't didn't trun in some great performances at 10 furlongs, idiot. The words were, agina, per Baeza, short distance specialist.
@bbmtge It's too bad you're such a horrible person, you'd be fun to talk with about racing, because you obviously are very knowledgeable. But you have terrible manners and can't express yourself without being a jerk.
I'm not referring to what Fager's jockey said -- if you'll note I hardly ever refer to what anyone SAID -- I was comparing Fager and Sec's times at 1 1/4 as 3-year olds to point out that the Doctor was pretty damn good for being a "short distance specialist."
@evyn10014 More FACTS for the LIAR. Dwyer stakes run at 9 furlongs fomr 1975 through 1993. only 4 times was the race over 1:49. of the 15 times it was under 1:49, 7 times it was under 1:48 with the best time in that era at 1:45 and 4/5th's by Conquistador Cielo. One again, the facts of detail do you in and show you for the effing LIAR that you are. THAT, my ignorant friend, is what does you in every time. Funny, you call me horrible, yet your LIES are what is HORRIBLE.
@evyn10014 You are so pathetic you try to wriggle out of lies. Sec 1:59 and 2 was under completely different circumstances, wide and in a large field. The details expose your bullshit every time. Are you that stupid??? Further, to your idiotic post about MOW at 1 5/8th's miles. Sec never ran 1 5/8th on DIRT. However, from memory, pulling up in the Belmont, SEc ran the fastest 1 5/8th's miles in history some 3 seconds faster than MOW at 1 5/8th's miles...YOU SHAMELESS LIAR!!!
@bbmtge You sir, have no class. Whatsoever. In any reply to anyone. You're just obviously not a good person.
I never claimed Sec ran 1 5/8th's on dirt, I pointed out that he ran it on turf, which btw is faster. Understand it was wet when Sec ran, but he set a TR so it wasn't bothering him, obviously.
Both horses (MOW and Sec) were eased up at the end. Since MOW ran a second faster at that distance, it's reasonable to conclude they were very similar in speed when MOW allowed to run.
@evyn10014 The pot calls the kettle black. You have absolutely no knowledge of horse racing and make a complete idiot of yourself with every post. Point #1...Sec FASTER at every fraction than MOW 1 mile to 1 and 5/8th's. Funny how you ignored this. Sec 1 and 5/8th's on turf...no TR there...as usual, you make a fool of yourself. Further, the track was not wet, it was soaked with rain and snow. Very slow running. Sec was not eased in that race, he was slowed dramatically...
@evyn10014 ...his best fraction at 1 5/8th's was pulling up in the Belmont at 2:37 and change. How is it that you come back over and again and make such an idiot of yourself. You LIE, you cant get your facts straight and yet you continue to post. Only an ASS would do such a thing. From memory, I do not believe any horse the BH top 10 had a faster race/fraction at 1 mile through 1 5/8th's miles at 3YO than Sec.
@evyn10014 "Similar in speed"...let's review the FACTS, as impossible as that is for you. From memory....Sec ran approx 19 lengths faster than MOW at 9 furlongs; at 10 furlongs, Sec ran approx 10 lengths faster in the KD and a dozen in the Belmont (1:59 flat at 10 furlongs in the Belmont; at 12 furlongs Sec was over 20 lengths faster than MOW and at 13 furlongs(pulling up in the Belmont) approx 12+ lengths faster than MOW. So, yes, you are correct. They were similar in speed. LOLOLOL!!!
@bbmtge About 20 lengths is the pattern difference between these two horses. Of course Secretariat the 20 length better. Even in his M.C. race clocked 'Pulling Up' the last furlong in 1:57 4/5 for the 1 1/4 mile. There is another 20 lengths difference. WOW 20 lengths better than MOW. What else can we say good buddy the times speak for themselves. Great post & keep telling it like it was.
@bbmtge You might want to keep in mind that while setting these records, Secretariet was running all out. Man O War was NOT. His jockeys always held him back so he would not insult the other trainer's horses.
So...you have now BLOWN IT I don't know how many times. You either make a ridiculous and unsupported general comment or try to twist a detail in your favor that nonetheless makes you look like a complete fool. I eagerly await your next idiotic statement.
@evyn10014 The point of your comment was a completely FALSE claim as to Dr. fager's time in claiming he ran 10 f faster than Sec. Nice try. And for the millionth time, Baeza states that Fager was a short disatcne specialist and strectched at 10f. Funny, you bald face LIE and try to say I made a bigger mistake by calling you out for it and QUOTING Fager's own jockey. keep making an ASS of yourself.
@evyn10014 Further, I guess you know more about Dr. Fager than Baeza..."we stretched him a bit at a mile and a quarter. His forte was less than a mile." How is it that you continually get it wrong, foment outright lies, lack any credibility, and downright embarass yourself time and again. Yet, for some reason, you come back for more. But... please keep writing the lying crap that you do as it makes for great fodder.
@evyn10014 Still waiting for your source on the Brooklyn Handicap. This should be good!!! Oh, and by the way, my stupid friend, the 1973 KD track was rated afull second slower than the 1964 track for Northern Dancer. Care to make some more stupid coments and denigrate Sec performance in the KD???
@bbmtge Take your memory pills then reread my post. I quoted Fager's time. I didn't say he won. And by the way, Damascus, one of the greatest horses of all time, is far greater competition than Secretariat ever faced with the exception of Forego, who I believe he raced one time? Fager and Damascus raced over and over and over again...
Fager's forte might have been less than a mile, but funny how he set the Mile WR on dirt that has never been beaten, only equaled.
@evyn10014 You are such a LIAR. It was not Dr. Fager's time, you moron. That was Damscus time. Fager's time woul;d have been, roughly, 1:59 and 4/5th's. What do you have to say about that you friggin" LIAR. More LIES from the lyin' 'ho. Now you cant even stay on topic. You LIE and try to denigrate Sec KD performance breaking from the 10th position and wide the entire race, at time 3 and 4 wide. Funny, did MOW run against a Dr. Fager or Damscus??? No...he ran against barn ponies.
@evyn10014 Still waiting for the explanation of your LIE about Dr. Fager's time in the Brooklyn. What's wrong??? Your stupidity got the best of you??? Unable to speak??? Catatonic??? Gee, didnt Sec pass the 10 furlong post in the Belmont in 1:50 flat. What other horse has done that??? Gee, did Fager or Damascus run a 9 furlong race in 1"45 and 2/5th's under a hand ride with the 2nd and 3rd horse running 1:46 and 1:46 1/5th respectively...AFTER posting a 1:09 and 1/5th 3/4 fraction???
@evyn10014 Gee...do you thin you can stay on topic??? Are we taling about MOW or Dr. Fager. Here is your homework assignment. Why dont you tell me where a field was assembled that had the awards and credentials of the '73 MC. Further, tell me a 9 furlong race where the vicotr ran 1$5 and 2 followed by 1:46 and 1:46 and 1. Was it MOW??? I dont think so. Let's see you be dismissive about this, she-male.
Don't you just love how the MOW fans constantly refer to weight carried and when cited that MOW ran against ALLOWANCE horses, they fall to pieces. Don't you love how MOW never ran against a large field that requires huge energy expenditure to fight for position. Do'nt you love how MOW average 1 1/2 opponents per race as a 3YO, thus, again, no fighting for position or being boxed in. Don't you love how Riddle 'DUCKED" the KD, yet accepted a match race against Hoodwink. When it comes to detail...
@bbmtge Riddle didn't duck the KD. There was no Triple Crown, he thought it was too early in the year for that distance. This was 1920--no super highways, wasn't easy to ship a horse cross country like today, it was primitive, look at the cars in the 1920's video. They used railroad cars to ship horses. MW did get boxed in, 3x in the Sanford Memorial when he came from facing the wrong way at the start to passing the field and barely losing the race. Field had decent stakes winners.
@pattii55 Quite predictable. Let's see where you make a fool of yourself. TC aside, the KD has been a, if not THE most prestigous TB race in US history. ACROSS COUNTRY...how do you figure...the friggin' horse lived in MD and many made the trip. For Christ's sake, they took him to Canada didn't they.STAKES winners...LOL...you are all the same. By category, they were ALLOWANCE horses. Time ,weight and distance. Keep DUCKING...it suit you and every other MOW "fan" out there.
@bbmtge Besides MY OPINION of the rigors of the trip. HISTORICAL FACT: Riddle's on record refusing to run 3 year olds 1-1/4 mi. that early in the year. K. Derby was important but it wasn't MEGA important as today. I wish more racehorse owners today would put the horse FIRST and human prestige 2nd. We wouldn't have so many young broken down horses for slaughter and running on drugs. As a horse lover you should respect Riddle for his unselfish decision of putting his animal's welfare before fame.
@pattii55 So interesting how you change things when confronted. "Rigors" of the trip, yet they took the horse to Canada...LOL. HISTORICAL FACT: Interesting use of the term and what you try to do is avoid debate by suing the term. Funny how it just could NOT be anything else. Another MOW myth. As lways, keep DUCKING!!!
@bbmtge The Kentucky Derby wasn't even remotely most prestigious race in the country in 1920.
If you knew anything about history beyond "Secretariat's Meadow" then you'd know that the New York tracks were the center of the scene in 1920. MOW's owner Sam Riddle wanted to race in NY not Kentucky, so he could hobnob with the other well to do at society hangouts.
Riddle also routinely didn't race his 3 year olds at KD all the way up to War Admiral, when he relented.
Sorry all - I am not this account, I'm actually OlLineRebel under my DH account. Please don't flood his account as you did last time I accidentally did this under his name.
@pussiologist1 Because those were 3 unrelated races in 1920, the "Triple Crown" label did not exist until 1930. Before 1930, no trainer or owner would have felt pressure to enter all 3 back then, like today. Unlike some of today's trainer's who treat their horses like objects, Riddle loved MW and thought it was too early in the year for a 3 year old to run 1-1/4mi. Riddle refused to race him at 4 because handicappers threatened 140+lbs. MW already carried 130 6x at 2 yrs, over 130 3x at 3yrs.
@CowgirlKaity5466 Actually, Biscuit was a cheat - at least his trainer was. There have been allegations in the past that Seabiscuit was administered horse growth hormones (HGH) and other drugs by Tom Smith and Red Pollard. Smith was actually busted for drugging another horse. Biscuit does little at 2 and 3 years and suddenly starts winning under Smith - this just doesn't happen. It was observed that he looked bigger at the Anita in 1940, and he died much younger than most racers.
Secretariat has the track records, the triple crown and the greatest all time race ever...73 Belmont..as if you didn't already know. The man who voted Secretariat as 14th should be outed and strung up by the heels....obviously he has no integrity or respect for history.
@Zenyatta20 After the voting it was discovered that one of the voters ranked Secretariat 14th in order to skew the data towards man o war. Most do not even consider those rankings even valid anymore and many of the voters have publicly communicated outrage over this vote.
Prove it. I've never yet seen anyone even say anything about the voting except Secretariat Groupie Bill Nack. And even his quote was that he HEARD someone on the panel put Sec 14th. Not even 1st-hand. Someone hearing that someone did something doesn't count as "discovering". Where is this public communication of outrage by these panelists (there were only 7 of these "many voters")? Who else expressed any rumors much less actual proof besides flacky Nack?
"The Blood Horse" and ESPN voted Man O' War the best of the 20th century. People with actual in depth of racing knowledge and not just "fanboys" know which horse proved himself consistently against all odds: Distance, track surface, an off day, HIGH handicap weights at BOTH years. 1 loss because starting gates weren't invented yet and he was facing the wrong way of the track at the start and had to catch the field—and Upset's jockey admitted if he hadn't blocked him, he'd have won that race too.
@pattii55 I did not know the #84 came before #35. What math school did you go too?? ESPN Top Athletes of The Past Century. Secretariat #35. Man 0' War #84 to clear up some of the confusion. Bloodhorse 7 panelist voted. One voted Secrfetariat #14. Seems like it was a little tainted to me.
I think patti refers to the HORSE-RACING people at ESPN conducting a STRICTLY horse-racing poll, as opposed to the ALL-ESPN panel of overall athletes. Sec won with the people who know little and more likely to vote new over old, and MOW won with the people who know more about horses and racing.
@pattii55 Now tell me...who was on the panel at BH...what were their credentials...who saw both horses run...and, most importantly, what is the controversy surrounding the "VOTE"???
@bbmtge Stop picking on the woman. Do you want me to name them? I can go fact for fact with you old man. They're all listed in the Blood Horse book and they're all top experts.
Controversy: 7 panelists. Secretariat and MOW each had the same number of 1st place votes. MOW got chosen #1 because he received one more second place vote than Secretariat -- because one panelist, I believe Trotter, voted Secretariat #14. Which of course, is ludicrous.
@pattii55 ESPN did NOT vote MOW #1. LIAR!!! Funny how not all articles on MOW's loss agree with you. Funny how many call it a loss and provide no excuse for him. Funny how Sec seemd to be able to have terrible starts and voercome the filed in record time. But, please, keep piling on the BS. It suits you. You are nothing but a repeater of LORE.
@bbmtge If ESPN didn't vote MOW no.1 that a shame and a scam . I compare MOW & Sec.to Babe Ruth & Barry Bonds.Ruth did his accomplishments on beer and hot dogs. Bonds on STEROIDS. Same as Sec.
@bbmtge Right after the Belmont Stakes in 1973 there was a article published be a racing gentleman who had seen both Sec. and MOW race said and I quote: Secretariats win in the Belmont was the greatest race I have ever seen. But if MOW & Sec. were to race there is one thing for certain MOW would break to the lead and it would be up to Sec to catch him . Even on his best day I don't think he ever would. Man O' War would never allow Sec to beat him!
@23johnsonr Without a doubt, one of the most asinine comments I have seen yet. Not one shred of logic. You dont even name the individual who, SUPPOSEDLY, said this. It is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion. Obviously, through such a stupid comment, you show that you know absolutely nothing about horseracing. Have you always been such a shallow thinker???
Arcaro being a class act and a gentleman..spoke properly. This is lost on many. You're taking a jockey's deepest respect about best horse...ridden "in the heat of battle" vs. his "gazing from the stands" as a spectator. Not insignificant but one carries a much higher weight or value than the other imo.....
There are few, if any, thoroughbreds who can match the combined accomplishments of the great Northern Dancer, both on the track and at the stud farm. The respected "Thoroughbred Times" considers Northern Dancer to be the 20th century's best sire of sires.
Secretariat was climbing, understandably, in the Wood, declining to get up on the bit for the only time in his life. End of quote.
Again his clocking was comfirmed by Charles Hatton in his Marlboro Cup race 'Pullin Up" in 1:57 4/5. This was done on a "Wet Fast" track as was detailed in Whitney Tower article "They Made Pigeons of the Field". It was not done at Santa Anita on a slightly downhill track. Listed as one of the fastest tracks in
Writings of Charles Hatton DRF articles after Secretariat T.C, season posedt by Dan Illam DRF handicap editor. Another Charles Hatton quote:
He pulls up going faster than former champions ran." In the mile and a furlong Marlboro, he pulled up a mile and a quarter in 1:57 4/5. In the mile and a half Belmont, he pulled up a mile and five furlongs in 2:37 2/5. Both bettered world marks. Cont.
DanI Illam Daily Racing Forum handicap editor quote:
His weight March 29, 1973 before the Triple Crown series, was 1,555 pounds. Weighed June 15 after these events, he tipped the beam at 1,131 pounds. His weight October 22, just previous to his farewell to colors, was 1,154 pounds. End of quote.
March 14th 1973 before his T.C. series he ran a 3/8 mile workout in 32 3/5 seconds. Thats was him weighing a whopping 1, 555 lbs. How about them apples??
;whose 31-length Belmont Stakes victory, in which he earned a Beyer of 137, is by consensus regarded as the greatest performance by a racehorse in history; and yet here was a voter who concocted a list suggesting that Secretariat would have finished last, behind 13 horses, in a field made up of that voter's first 14 horses on the list. It warped the voting and thereby tainted the list."
@rscarbro100 My guess is, people who mention the breeding shed are doing so because the 'proof is in the genes.' MOW had traits that are reliable indicators of genetic quality, which he could pass on to his progeny/next generation. Why do you think Sec became most sought after sire? His stud fee was ridiculously hefty, but people paid hoping to receive his traits/genes, unfortunately, Sec accomplished only modest success in breeding duties. MOW proved his brillance in every way conceivable.
@TerraCLyn You mean to tell me if a horse has better Genes then he is a better race horse?? first of all MOW foaled almost twice as many as Secretariat. Second the quality of mares he foaled And third the quality of mares his offspring foaled. They only use the 'Sire' theory trying to prove MOW was better after they ran out of excuses why they thought MOW was better. Its palin And simple. Thats the better quess.
@rscarbro100 Not as simple as 'better genes, better horse.' All I'm saying is, MOW had all the genetic material necessary to create the finest thoroughbreds. America saw this on the race track, long before he retired to stud. MOW sired only 386 registered foals.
@TerraCLyn There was no horse that had better 'Genes' than Secretariat. No horse in history ever duplicate themselves through their offspring. Amercia seen it in his out of this world performances. He broke MOW records 'Pullin Up' And in his 'Workouts". Read the racing dean of horse racing the old time track expert Charles Hatton. He wrote for the Dail Racing Forum. At Pimlico they thought they pulled a good one on Secretariat But did not know the DRF were lurking near by with clocks in hand.
@TerraCLyn He foaled close to 900 mares. Only 386 registered. Why? Because the rest over 400 he did foal was not worth the grass to race on. A simple matter.
I can't even tell if you make a point, because you sound so incredibly stupid for saying that a stallion "foaled" anything. He COVERED close to 900 mares. He SIRED 386 registered foals.
@Appoloni What kind of point is it in the first place trying to use the fact he was a good sire makes him a great racehorse? Talking about stupid you belong in a class all by yourself, Tell me why the rest of those he foaled were never registered? So what in the hell the big fuss about him being a great sire in the first place. You MOW fans are getting so desperate for excuses your taking the issue to the breeding stall. Holy Cow
I'm sorry but CHILL THE FUCK OUT. Sheesh, enjoy the damn video for once. If your going to be on Man O' War vids just to whine about who you think is better, then get of youtube and Get a life.
@queenluciaa I'm not sorry dip shit but you can watch the video without reading the comments dumb ass.Who said you was the boss? Take a jump in the lake.Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen Bozo.
@rscarbro100 Excuse me, I made a typo. MOW sired 380 foals. Where did you get 900 from? MOW did not even sire as many foals as Sec. One advantage Sec had was the number of foals he sired, yet MOW is credited for being best sire of the 20th Century. It's all in the genes. ;-)
@TerraCLyn Excuse me. Your just about right. It was 379. My rear end is the blackest on that one But I did read somewhere he foaled over 800. I'm still checking. Where did you find he was credited the best sire of the 20th century?
Northern Dancer An exceptional sire, he was named the 20th century's best sire of sires, producing multiple champions in both the United States and the United Kingdom. source: Wikipedia. Maybe your ass is the backest here.(smile)
@rscarbro100 And MOW was named greatest horse of the 20th Century, yet you disagree, and that's fine. Yes, Northern Dancer was most successful sire, and 'one' of the best. Nearly every champion thoroughbred can trace their pedigree back to MOW (along with his important offspring), including Northern Dancer.
@TerraCLyn Man 0' War was named greatest horse of the 20 century only by Bloodhorse Magazine my good lady. With a panel of 6 men and one lady.One voted Secretariat 14th best.. Now does that make him the best?? I think not. Bloodhorse conducted a survey well before this panel of 7 were asked to vote who was the greatest. In that survey Secretariat unanimously was voted #1 as well as ESPN, Sports Illustraed. and by regular people hands down. Yet you disagree or I guess you just din't know that.
@rscarbro100 I did not know Sec was voted number 1 by ESPN, etc., and yes, I disagree with the vote. I also disagree with Bloodhorse Magazine's ranking of Sec. While Sec may be in my top 5, he is certainly not my numbers 1, 2 or 3...
@TerraCLyn Seems like your not aware of a lot of things my good lady. I really respect your opinion even though I differ.My opinion also rest on the old time track experts. Did you know that Eddie Arcaro was the jockey of Citation and Whiraway? He rode Assualt, Kelso, Nashua That is two horses he rode ranked in the top 5. He has made statements many times he rated Secretariat the best. He told Ron turcotte he was the best no ifs ands or butts about it. He was the fastest horse he ever seen.Cont
@TerraCLyn Eddie last interview was in 1996 he had with Los Angeles times staff writer Bill Christine in which in his artice titled Eddie Arcaro 'the master' is dead at 81 posted Nov. 15 1997 on page 2 quoted this:
Citation was the best 3 year old I ever rode, Kelso was the best 4 year old I ever rode but I rate Secretariat the best I ever seen. He told Ron Turcotte every person I spoke too that seen MOW & Secretariat said Secretariat was the best. That speaks volume does it not??
-but it was an idiotic judgment that should have been dismissed out of hand. Had I known any voter would do such a thing, I'd have put Man o' War in fourteenth place just to counterbalance the loony. That would have leveled the playing field. Here was a horse who had broken three track records in all three Triple Crown races, including the controversial Preakness clocking, two of which records (Derby and Belmont) still stand today; Cont.
Author Bill Nack regarding the outcome of why Man'OWar was selected #1 in the The Blood-Horse poll. Mr. Nack was asked recently why Man'OWar was voted ahead of Secretariat for Horse of the Century, and Mr. Nack replied "I spent two days on the project. The final results were skewered when, I am told, one of the judges put Secretariat fourteenth on his top-100 list. I don't know who this particular voter was---individual voting has remained a secret on that panel---Cont.
Man o'War's jockey, Johnny Loftus, was suspected of having thrown the race and was denied a jockey's license in 1920 as a result, but in fact Upset won because of Knapp's clever tactics. He took his horse out fast but, instead of taking the lead, hung alongside Golden Broom to keep Man o'War boxed in along the rail. When the favorite finally moved to the outside to get around the two leading horses, Knapp drove Upset to victory in the 3/4-mile sprint.
@pattii55 That's the best you can do. Absolute and complete foolishness. You cant handle being explicitly called out on your LIES so you resort to the idiot you truly are. Keep it coming It's to be expected from you.
I have read a few articles by Dorothy Ours. I have no idea if she is a credible source. It don't matter to me if she thinks Secretariat the best or not. If she tells a lie for Secretariat I will call her out on it And have done that several times to Secretariat fans. I only want the truth no matter what horse it is on. The truth will last forever And a lie will find you out.
@rscarbro100 Apparently the only research you've done on MOW is in Nack's book where he goes out of his way to find everyone he can to say Secretariat is better.
Dorothy Ours book is called Legend Like Lightning. It's universally praised as well-researched and objective, and it doesn't go into a comparison of the two horses, which you wouldn't know, as you haven't read it.
By the way, since you like "facts" Ours book is exhaustively annotated with every source.
You all look like blathering fools, going off half-cocked rapid-fire with foam running from your mouths. You're like Linda Blair in the Excorcist and I expect your heads were spinning from the second you started posting here.
You are incomprehensible, constantly going off and spewing the same old "LIE!!!!!" hysteria post after post. Your constant libelous non-sequiturs are mind-boggling. You've spewed so much I can't waste time finding where "patti" wrote something wrong.
@theOlLineRebel When you cant answer to the facts, you just start to run in circles like a blabbering idiot. Your downward spiral form loser to moron has been fun. Keep trying to tunr thigs around. You and your buddies spew nothing but lies and innunedo. We have the facts on our side. This is too funny.
It's hard to "answer" anything when you somehow zip off 40 thousand posts in 15 min, and we don't even know what the question was, especially in between the insults. What's the point when you're a raving lunatic and won't let anyone get a word in edgewise?
@theOlLineRebel If you cant keep up, as I am answering other's posts, then resume your self-abuse ritual, drink plenty of water, to rehydrate, and check back tomorrow.
Man 0' War had only a 1 1/8 mile Preakness to run And did not have the 1 1/2 mile Belmont test of champions to run. He never had to run more than 6 furlongs as a 2 year old And did not manage to make horse of the year. And when he did run a 1 1/2 mile race it was a weight of 118 lbs in a time of 2:28 4/5.When asked to carry 138bs it was for a distance of only 1 1/16 mile. when he was asked to carry 135 lbs it was only for a 1 mile distance. Boy was that 'Monster' sure tested.
@rscarbro100 You are clearly retarded now. MOW is undisputed as proving himself with weight. He carried 130 lbs as a 2 year old 6 times. When he carried 138 it was at the Potomac on a track surface they wouldn't even let a modern horse practice on now it was so bad.
Secretariat never carried more than 126 lbs.
You are, as the others suggest, nothing more than a Troll.
When Man o' War was three, Kilmer tried for a match race between the two horses. Somehow, Man o' War's owner, Samuel Riddle, although seeming to agree, never managed to have that happen.Source: Wikipedia
Take it from Dorothy Ours AND JKM Ross, son of owner of SB - they all got together, with tracks, to see what was most agreeable to all. Bottom line, Kilmer wanted longer races only, and wouldn't stand for anything less than 1-1/2mi. Riddle and Ross both agreed to a lesser distance and a track that would accomodate them. Better than Wiki, which you yourself might've written.
@theOlLineRebel One does not HAVE to take it from them and treat it as gospel. There are differing accounts. You can choose to follow that line, blindly, to support how you "feel" or take into account that MOW, the best, the fastest, REFUSED to race Exterminator a mile and a half race. Nice try at twisting the facts.
Yet, you proudly cite "source" as Wikipedia! LOL. Yes, that beats a researcher who wrote about MOW (and chooses Sec 1st, BTW) and a man who knew him and Sir Barton intimately.
Indeed, Riddle may not have wanted to race Ext AT 1-3/4, but he had no problem below 1-1/2. That's not twisting. Kilmer refused shorter distances. Ext. was beaten more than he won against Ross' CUDGEL - because of middle distances. Ext failed miserably in a simple time trial @ 1-1/4 even.
@theOlLineRebel Suggest you clarify who says what before you comment. Further, your buddy tried this twist before and stated Ext camp refused to race MOW, then said they WOULD race him at 1 1/2 miles. You are telling conflicting stories with your buddy.
@theOlLineRebel The one thing in common all of the MOW " fanatics" have is simply believing what you want to believe in nearly 100 year old tales if it suits your fancy at the time. It's funny how you guyes cross each other up with different stories about the very same subject.
@bbmtge Like the lady said first the reason for MOW lost to Upset. It was because of the start. The she came back and said it was fixed. She read things in libraries but do not give the name of book or author But quick to give good reference if she finds something she thinks thats bad for Secretariat. They do trip all over themselves or more so tying themselves up in knots.
@rscarbro100 The same, as we have discussed, about racing less than allowance quality horses; no winning records, raced an older horse once who was in terrible shape. These are facts, not slights on MOW. He simply did not have to contend with what Sec did. Sec is made fun of for losing to Prove Out. Was Prove Out a great horse? No. But...he ran 2 phenomenal races in his career. I don't remember either MOW running 2:25 and 4 in the mud at 1 1/2 miles OR racing a horse who could.
Everybody calm down I'm writing a movie about the Great Man O War and then another one about Man O War son War Admiral that i will send to Disney and or warner bros
theshouldersman 2 weeks ago
Man O War should have a movie about him!He was the first race horse I learned about!
horseuni345 3 weeks ago in playlist More videos from carlykaiser
@horseuni345 Me too. I read a book about him way back in elementary school, and then I always wanted to be a jockey. I always thought a movie should be made too. What a horse. After he died, his groom died shortly after.
GRAMAGRUNT 2 weeks ago
Is there a longer version of this?
WolfCreekCity 1 month ago
Check how many horses were registered to run against Secretariat in his time compared to Ma O War's. Huge difference. But I TOTTALLY AGREE, Man O War should have a movie made about him!
holybulz27 1 month ago
there really needs to be a movie about man o war. fuck, ill pay for the god damn production because this horse deserves to have a movie about his magnificent career
kae587 1 month ago
Man o' War beat world records pulling up, carrying more weight than Secretariat, on slower tracks than Secretariat, wearing slower shoes than Secretariat, without modern advantages (i.e.- that STARTING GATE) Secretariat enjoyed. Oh, and he did beat that one Triple Crown winner by seven lengths under restraint...
If you like Secretariat more, good for you. But don't come to Man o' War videos making ridiculous claims based on times that Secretariat had an incredible advantage with.
Phanatic24601 2 months ago 4
I wonder how many of these horses actually care which one is fastest of all time
kozmon0t 3 months ago
The American arrogance and ignorance is famose . If a horse wins in USA, without ever leaving his country, , it automatically becomes the best in history. Out of Your Truman Show , out the Hollywood movies , in the real world, everyone knows ..the best horse ever (gallop) is the Italian " RIBOT ", the best trotter ever is Italian " VARENNE " the best jockey ever is the Italian " FRANKIE DETTORI." All people can check these names on internet and make an assessment of the results.
MrItaliano1900 3 months ago
No he was THE BEST horse, he only LOST 1NCE!
toxicflyFisher 3 months ago
Man O War and Secretariat belong in the same league...What pisses me off is the delusional Zenyatta fans that equate Zen to Secretariat. They don't know wtf true greatness(like Man O War and Secretariat) is!
indkeith 3 months ago
For all of you LOLing at MOW, how come Secretariat LOST so many races???? Was Onion better than MOW LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sydplayson 4 months ago
@Sydplayson ...Man O War was the best of a foal crop that numbered, what? 6000 or so??....Ridiculous argument since there's no way of fans of either horse to ever be proved right..
JimSpoor 4 months ago
@JimSpoor Actually, it was 1,680. He also was the best of the crop before him, as he beat triple crown winner Sir Barton easily. MOW and Sec were neck to neck in the talent department, I just hate when people throw out times to justify their opinion, time is SO variable. Especially between eras like that.
Sydplayson 4 months ago
both horses were greatest in their time. and greatest of all time. however, there is at least one measuring stick, the clock, from which they may compare. For each quarter mile, what was their time and who did it faster? Then figure out whether Man o War was still accelerating for each quarter mile. If he does, then he's in Secretariats league, if not - Secretariat sits with the God of Horses. Secretariat did this not once but at least twice in the triple crown - The Derby and Belmont.
80cathryn 5 months ago
We'll never know.Tracks are different.Horses are individuals,and have good days and bad days.I personally am a great fan of Man O'War and have a great deal of faith in his speed,strength and heart,but Secretariat was a great horse as well,and I think that each would have given the other a damn good run for the money.So why don't we just acknowledge the tremendous talents of both horses and stop squabbling over a question that will never be answered?
darkfey1963 6 months ago 10
@darkfey1963 the question has been answered. the clock says it all and MOW would have been a great test until they got to the 1/2 mile marker; after that Secretariat would turn on the juice and would power away still accelerating until the end of the race. remember MOW's best mile and a half was four seconds slower. end of story.
80cathryn 5 months ago
@80cathryn How much weight would each carry? Was MOW going all out, like he hardly ever did?
Sydplayson 4 months ago
Shut up man O'war is awesome!
toxicflyFisher 6 months ago
I can't believe you are arguing over a HORSE!! I am sure there are plenty of more important subjects to argue over right now and use your energy towards!! Pathetic!
chancieacres 6 months ago
So...to stay with your line of logic (illogic), if MOW still had a record, it would be meaningless??? Right???
bbmtge 6 months ago
@bbmtge Actually I believe he does. Some people have stated he did in CIVIL discussions like this on RACING fora - probably that 1-5/8 at Belmont you disparage so much vs. an unofficial measure. Not sure; haven't looked at it myself. I know he held 1 at least 70 years.
theOlLineRebel 6 months ago
@theOlLineRebel Yup, they were right - he's still on Belmont's TR list.
theOlLineRebel 6 months ago
@theOlLineRebel I do not disparage MOW in any way. I have stated, emphatically, that he was decades ahead of his time, his fractions were both unheard of in his day and for a long time to come, that he STILL holds a share of the Lawrence 1 5/8th's, that he was an absolute geneitc freak and a phenom as a sire. The issue I have always held is that the average MOW fan, including you, denigrates, distort and flat-out lies about Sec. Further, the challenge that MOW would have had in the modern era...
bbmtge 6 months ago
@theOlLineRebel ...would have been to run in a large, competitive field with much faster horses. Also, the distance and time for Sec in the Belmont at 1 5/8th's are a matter of record. Both races were on dirt and at Belmont. As stated, you must not know anything about the Woodbine Track to make the unsupported comment you did.
bbmtge 6 months ago
@bbmtge I congratulate you for being civil.
However, you are still calling me a "liar". How? About what have I lied?
If I'm denigrating Sec it's just the appearance in relative discussion as surely as you appear to do to MOW.
As for "matter of record" - whose record please? Bill Nack's? Every time there is some "factoid" rumour about Sec it revolves around Nack, including the "someone told me someone voted Sec 14" in the BH list. No-one ever corroborates that 3rd-hand info.
theOlLineRebel 6 months ago
@bbmtge I don't think there is any question MOW would face better challenges. The point is, he was so far ahead of his contemporaries (and people knew it in their hearts to worship him as they did for 25+ years) that I have no doubt he'd be fighting highly competitively with the greats of "today". Frankly I think he had more sheer "machine" about him (no equipment, runaway, adversity) than Sec, and between carried speed and heart would win more than lose against him, if only by a nose.
theOlLineRebel 6 months ago
@theOlLineRebel A very well constructed argument. I believe the advantage that Sec had over any competition was his ability to run a 1:09 and change 3/4 fraction while finishing in WR time, under a hand ride. The KD showed his ability to run wide and still post phenomenal fractions; 23 3/5tth's as much as 3 wide on the turn and a final coming off a very wide position at the quarter pole of 23 1/5th. I could state a lot more, but I think these are the things that go unnoticed.
bbmtge 6 months ago
@bbmtge
Those are awesome, indeed. Secretariat WAS phenomenol on his many good days. I used to suspect he wasn't as high as #2, but I've pretty much abandoned that idea. There are a very few people who think Seattle Slew was better than all of them, and more now who think Citation was best, but I really don't think so. I have huge respect for them, and would've been excited to have experienced them, but I don't think they really had the sheer speed MOW and Sec had (as well as desire, etc).
theOlLineRebel 6 months ago
The King
evyn10014 7 months ago
You guys do remember that Man o' War raced in 1920? When tracks were slower and the horses had to wear heavy shoes instead of the light aluminum ones they do now? His times would actually be 2 - 3 seconds faster if put on a modern basis.
AtashiBaka 7 months ago
@AtashiBaka Suggest before you comment you do a couple of things. As far as tracks are concerned, provide the scientific research that backs up your absurd claim. Further, get the weights of the shoes from 1920 and the weights of the shoes form the '70's. Afterward, take the difference in weight and give me the percentage difference relative to an 1100 pound animal. Start with that. Until then, shut up, read and you may learn something.
bbmtge 7 months ago
If you visit the Kentucky Horsepark you will see the statues of both horses and Man O' War is bigger than Secretariat. Amazing. Both horses were 16.2 hands Man O' War was 1,150 lbs. and Secretariat was 1,175 lbs. Just another example of how inflated the Man O' War legacy has become. Just like people didn't want to see Hank Aaron surpass Babe Ruth's home run record, people can't stand the fact that Secretariat was a superior horse on the track. By the way, i don't count Barry Bonds steroid HR'S
MelC54 7 months ago
@MelC54 Man o War was 16.5 hands you haven't done your research. Ruffian was almost 17.5 hands. What's the point? None.
evyn10014 7 months ago
@evyn10014 Man O' War was 16.2 hands, I don't know where you got your information. As for "what's the point"? The point is that MOW was NOT bigger than SECRETARIAT which is what the statues seem to want people to believe. SECRETARIAT weighed 25 lbs more than man O' War so, at the same 16.2 hands, SECRETARIAT was actually the bigger horse. Now, go take a nap.
MelC54 7 months ago
@evyn10014 "She" bounces from room to room...I would say she posts nothing of substance but, in fact she simply lies and distorts. The funny thing is that she cant get anything straight, as mentoined prior, she just lies and distorts but, the real funny thing is that she keeps coming back. I do not understand how "she" can make such an idiot of herself yet have the audacity to keep posting. Very good stuff!!!
bbmtge 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bbmtge substance: For anyone interested in how MOW stacks up against other all-time greats...
He ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
evyn10014 7 months ago
There is no such thing as 16.5 hands. That would be 17.1. 17.5 hands would be 18.1. A hand is four inches. You might want to do some research yourself.
ljswisc 7 months ago
@ljswisc correct. MOW was 16 and a half hands at 2 years old then grew taller but it's unclear how much. Ruffian was 17 and a half hands or 17.2.
evyn10014 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
For anyone interested in how MOW stacks up against other all-time greats...
He ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
And most of the time he eased off or pulled up. All official DRF times, comparing the horses as 3 year olds. Cheers
evyn10014 8 months ago
@evyn10014 For anyone interested in the FACTS of Sec vs. MOW racing fractions; as follows : Sec FASTER at every fraction than MOW and in one case by some 20 lengths. Sec never ran 1 5/8th's miles on dirt, however his 1 5/8th's time pulling up in the Belmont best MOW by some 15 lengths. Unfortunatley the person who posted the above CRAP is nothing more than a PURE LIAR.
bbmtge 8 months ago
like they said at the start, hell to break, headache to handle, cannonpult to ride, really shows in my horse Comet, Admiral is the great grandfather of Comet and Man o war's temper comes out in Comets
katnjas 9 months ago
If the panelists were good enough for the Blood Horse to choose to have on it, then they must have been respected, knowledgeable people who knew what the heck they were voting about. That's good enough for me. The only way they would be smart enough for Sec. worshippers was if they'd chosen Sec over MW, then they'd all be genius level. Sec. wasn't a bad horse but he wasn't the greatest. Deal with it.
pattii55 9 months ago
@pattii55 You are an expert at avoiding the details. Answer the question posed...who were they, what were their credentials, who saw both horses run and, most important...what is the controversy surrounding the vote??? Stop ducking and answer the questions.
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge And you're an expert at making up details. I trust the Blood Horse to value their own integrety enough not to hire a panel of bozo's to decide such an important issue, knowing full well, Sec. fanatics like yourself would be ripping them a new one over it for years. I'm sure they chose carefully. I don't have to know names for myself. Obviously the panel was filled with more people who saw Sec run than MW and STILL voted him #1. Get over it. You lurking trolls are as thick headed as ever.
pattii55 9 months ago
@pattii55 As alwasy, you refuse to answer the questions...WHY???...because you dont know the answers and you dont want to know the answers. The truth is that one of the panel voted Sec #14 thus assuring that MOW would be #1. Nack said that had he known this, he would have voted MOW #14. The entire vote is invalid as a result. Do your homework next time before making a fool of yourself. Further, ESPN voted SEc way ahead of MOW. So, you are caught in another LIE, just like every other Mow "fan".
bbmtge 9 months ago
@pattii55 And...of course...they did..."trsut" means you dont want to know the facts. By placing someone on the panel that voted Sec #14 so that MOW would be #1 shows hoe badly BH handled and chose the panel as well as to have accepted their vote. Now your just being plain STUPID!!!
bbmtge 9 months ago
Why all the Secretariat comments on a MOW page? No one dislikes Secretariat, or claims he wasn't great, and possibly the greatest.
What people don't appreciate is certain posters who can't say an opinion without insulting everyone and saying they're a bunch of liars. Quote a historical book, a race official, you're a liar, etc... Pretty silly.
An opinion is just an opinion. No matter who you are. "Best of all time" is a subjective opinion that will never have an answer.
evyn10014 9 months ago
Funny how Sec faced enormous talent and MOW faced ZERO!!! Anyone want to compare/contrast level of talent???
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge Check out some of my other posts where I agreed with you that Secretariat faced better competition (on a different page).
Sec was born at the zenith of thoroughbred foaling. MOW was born in one of the lowest foaling years ever.
However, other horses faced tougher competition than Sec. Ex: Fager having to contend with Damascus, a hall of fame top 100 horse, over and over...
When people say "Hey bbmtge" you're right, you can't even be a gentleman and leave it at that. Try harder.
evyn10014 9 months ago
@evyn10014 Dr. Fager was a short distance specialist. His own jockey said 10 furlongs was a stretch. Damascus beat him with rabbits. Anybody knows that. Suggest you look at competition performances instaed of hiding behind horse's names.
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge Fager was only good at short distances? Really? Let's check the DRF.
As a 3-year old Fager ran 1 1/4 in 159.4 to Secretariat's 159.2... 2/10th's slower... Wow. And the DRF lists his finish as a "Mild Drive" (Fager). Seems he could have run a bit faster than Sec if needed...
And as a 4-year old Fager ran 1 1/4 in 159.1, Brooklyn Handicap, carrying 135 lbs. Which beats Sec's time while giving the correct Weight for Age.
There are some "competition performances" for you.
evyn10014 8 months ago
@evyn10014 I ,still, find people like you funny. They make accusations of misinformation while being nothing more than liars and idiots. Which are you??? Or, are you a combination of both??? The Brooklyn handicap was won by DAMASCUS in 1:59 and 1/5...not DR. FAGER. Dr. Fager ran 10f in 1:59 and 4/5th's as a 3YO and 1:59 and 3/5th's as a 4YO under 132 lbs. Sec ran 1:59 and 2/5th's in a 13 horse field, brekaing last and running very wide for nearly the entire race including a 23 sec final quarter.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@bbmtge Learn to read Gramps. I never said Fager won the Brooklyn Handicap, I merely pointed out his time was better than Sec's at the same distance giving weight for age. And I was pointing that out because you said Fager couldn't run for any distance, which clearly isn't the case -- all you have to do is look at the records to show he was competitive to 1 1/4. Later skater.
evyn10014 8 months ago
@bbmtge Fager ran 1 1/4 in 1:59 4/5 as a 3-year old at the NH Sweep Classic which he won easily. Sec ran 1 1/4 as a 3 year old in 1:59 2/5 in the KD which he won handily as well.
But holy crap you were right for once about the Brooklyn Handicap that was Damascus' time. All apologies.
Doesn't change my point. As 3-year olds Fager ran 1 1/4 about the same as Secretariat. Which negates your argument that Fager only good at short distances. A bigger mistake on your part I believe.
evyn10014 8 months ago
@evyn10014 Dr. Fager was a short distance specialist as per Baeza. Baez'a words were that they stretched him at 10 furlongs. Never said he wasn't didn't trun in some great performances at 10 furlongs, idiot. The words were, agina, per Baeza, short distance specialist.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@bbmtge It's too bad you're such a horrible person, you'd be fun to talk with about racing, because you obviously are very knowledgeable. But you have terrible manners and can't express yourself without being a jerk.
I'm not referring to what Fager's jockey said -- if you'll note I hardly ever refer to what anyone SAID -- I was comparing Fager and Sec's times at 1 1/4 as 3-year olds to point out that the Doctor was pretty damn good for being a "short distance specialist."
evyn10014 8 months ago
@evyn10014 Keep tryin to twist your lies, sister. That is not what you said. You lied, got caught, and have been spinnig it ever since.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 More FACTS for the LIAR. Dwyer stakes run at 9 furlongs fomr 1975 through 1993. only 4 times was the race over 1:49. of the 15 times it was under 1:49, 7 times it was under 1:48 with the best time in that era at 1:45 and 4/5th's by Conquistador Cielo. One again, the facts of detail do you in and show you for the effing LIAR that you are. THAT, my ignorant friend, is what does you in every time. Funny, you call me horrible, yet your LIES are what is HORRIBLE.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 You are so pathetic you try to wriggle out of lies. Sec 1:59 and 2 was under completely different circumstances, wide and in a large field. The details expose your bullshit every time. Are you that stupid??? Further, to your idiotic post about MOW at 1 5/8th's miles. Sec never ran 1 5/8th on DIRT. However, from memory, pulling up in the Belmont, SEc ran the fastest 1 5/8th's miles in history some 3 seconds faster than MOW at 1 5/8th's miles...YOU SHAMELESS LIAR!!!
bbmtge 8 months ago
@bbmtge You sir, have no class. Whatsoever. In any reply to anyone. You're just obviously not a good person.
I never claimed Sec ran 1 5/8th's on dirt, I pointed out that he ran it on turf, which btw is faster. Understand it was wet when Sec ran, but he set a TR so it wasn't bothering him, obviously.
Both horses (MOW and Sec) were eased up at the end. Since MOW ran a second faster at that distance, it's reasonable to conclude they were very similar in speed when MOW allowed to run.
evyn10014 8 months ago
@evyn10014 The pot calls the kettle black. You have absolutely no knowledge of horse racing and make a complete idiot of yourself with every post. Point #1...Sec FASTER at every fraction than MOW 1 mile to 1 and 5/8th's. Funny how you ignored this. Sec 1 and 5/8th's on turf...no TR there...as usual, you make a fool of yourself. Further, the track was not wet, it was soaked with rain and snow. Very slow running. Sec was not eased in that race, he was slowed dramatically...
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 ...his best fraction at 1 5/8th's was pulling up in the Belmont at 2:37 and change. How is it that you come back over and again and make such an idiot of yourself. You LIE, you cant get your facts straight and yet you continue to post. Only an ASS would do such a thing. From memory, I do not believe any horse the BH top 10 had a faster race/fraction at 1 mile through 1 5/8th's miles at 3YO than Sec.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 "Similar in speed"...let's review the FACTS, as impossible as that is for you. From memory....Sec ran approx 19 lengths faster than MOW at 9 furlongs; at 10 furlongs, Sec ran approx 10 lengths faster in the KD and a dozen in the Belmont (1:59 flat at 10 furlongs in the Belmont; at 12 furlongs Sec was over 20 lengths faster than MOW and at 13 furlongs(pulling up in the Belmont) approx 12+ lengths faster than MOW. So, yes, you are correct. They were similar in speed. LOLOLOL!!!
bbmtge 8 months ago 2
@bbmtge About 20 lengths is the pattern difference between these two horses. Of course Secretariat the 20 length better. Even in his M.C. race clocked 'Pulling Up' the last furlong in 1:57 4/5 for the 1 1/4 mile. There is another 20 lengths difference. WOW 20 lengths better than MOW. What else can we say good buddy the times speak for themselves. Great post & keep telling it like it was.
rscarbro100 7 months ago
@bbmtge You might want to keep in mind that while setting these records, Secretariet was running all out. Man O War was NOT. His jockeys always held him back so he would not insult the other trainer's horses.
CHEVYedsf 4 months ago
So...you have now BLOWN IT I don't know how many times. You either make a ridiculous and unsupported general comment or try to twist a detail in your favor that nonetheless makes you look like a complete fool. I eagerly await your next idiotic statement.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 The point of your comment was a completely FALSE claim as to Dr. fager's time in claiming he ran 10 f faster than Sec. Nice try. And for the millionth time, Baeza states that Fager was a short disatcne specialist and strectched at 10f. Funny, you bald face LIE and try to say I made a bigger mistake by calling you out for it and QUOTING Fager's own jockey. keep making an ASS of yourself.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 Further, I guess you know more about Dr. Fager than Baeza..."we stretched him a bit at a mile and a quarter. His forte was less than a mile." How is it that you continually get it wrong, foment outright lies, lack any credibility, and downright embarass yourself time and again. Yet, for some reason, you come back for more. But... please keep writing the lying crap that you do as it makes for great fodder.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 Still waiting for your source on the Brooklyn Handicap. This should be good!!! Oh, and by the way, my stupid friend, the 1973 KD track was rated afull second slower than the 1964 track for Northern Dancer. Care to make some more stupid coments and denigrate Sec performance in the KD???
bbmtge 8 months ago
@bbmtge Take your memory pills then reread my post. I quoted Fager's time. I didn't say he won. And by the way, Damascus, one of the greatest horses of all time, is far greater competition than Secretariat ever faced with the exception of Forego, who I believe he raced one time? Fager and Damascus raced over and over and over again...
Fager's forte might have been less than a mile, but funny how he set the Mile WR on dirt that has never been beaten, only equaled.
Keep yappin', it's amusing.
evyn10014 8 months ago
@evyn10014 You are such a LIAR. It was not Dr. Fager's time, you moron. That was Damscus time. Fager's time woul;d have been, roughly, 1:59 and 4/5th's. What do you have to say about that you friggin" LIAR. More LIES from the lyin' 'ho. Now you cant even stay on topic. You LIE and try to denigrate Sec KD performance breaking from the 10th position and wide the entire race, at time 3 and 4 wide. Funny, did MOW run against a Dr. Fager or Damscus??? No...he ran against barn ponies.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 The other gretathing about reading your posts, other than the LIES you perpetrate, is how you steal my material.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 Still waiting for the explanation of your LIE about Dr. Fager's time in the Brooklyn. What's wrong??? Your stupidity got the best of you??? Unable to speak??? Catatonic??? Gee, didnt Sec pass the 10 furlong post in the Belmont in 1:50 flat. What other horse has done that??? Gee, did Fager or Damascus run a 9 furlong race in 1"45 and 2/5th's under a hand ride with the 2nd and 3rd horse running 1:46 and 1:46 1/5th respectively...AFTER posting a 1:09 and 1/5th 3/4 fraction???
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 while running 10f in 1:57 and 4 pulling up.
bbmtge 8 months ago
@evyn10014 Gee...do you thin you can stay on topic??? Are we taling about MOW or Dr. Fager. Here is your homework assignment. Why dont you tell me where a field was assembled that had the awards and credentials of the '73 MC. Further, tell me a 9 furlong race where the vicotr ran 1$5 and 2 followed by 1:46 and 1:46 and 1. Was it MOW??? I dont think so. Let's see you be dismissive about this, she-male.
bbmtge 9 months ago
...ALL OF THEIR ARGUMENTS FALL TO PIECES. THEY ARE, THUS, LEFT TO HYPOCRISY. QUITE ENTERTAINING!!!
bbmtge 9 months ago
Don't you just love how the MOW fans constantly refer to weight carried and when cited that MOW ran against ALLOWANCE horses, they fall to pieces. Don't you love how MOW never ran against a large field that requires huge energy expenditure to fight for position. Do'nt you love how MOW average 1 1/2 opponents per race as a 3YO, thus, again, no fighting for position or being boxed in. Don't you love how Riddle 'DUCKED" the KD, yet accepted a match race against Hoodwink. When it comes to detail...
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge Riddle didn't duck the KD. There was no Triple Crown, he thought it was too early in the year for that distance. This was 1920--no super highways, wasn't easy to ship a horse cross country like today, it was primitive, look at the cars in the 1920's video. They used railroad cars to ship horses. MW did get boxed in, 3x in the Sanford Memorial when he came from facing the wrong way at the start to passing the field and barely losing the race. Field had decent stakes winners.
pattii55 9 months ago
@pattii55 Quite predictable. Let's see where you make a fool of yourself. TC aside, the KD has been a, if not THE most prestigous TB race in US history. ACROSS COUNTRY...how do you figure...the friggin' horse lived in MD and many made the trip. For Christ's sake, they took him to Canada didn't they.STAKES winners...LOL...you are all the same. By category, they were ALLOWANCE horses. Time ,weight and distance. Keep DUCKING...it suit you and every other MOW "fan" out there.
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge Besides MY OPINION of the rigors of the trip. HISTORICAL FACT: Riddle's on record refusing to run 3 year olds 1-1/4 mi. that early in the year. K. Derby was important but it wasn't MEGA important as today. I wish more racehorse owners today would put the horse FIRST and human prestige 2nd. We wouldn't have so many young broken down horses for slaughter and running on drugs. As a horse lover you should respect Riddle for his unselfish decision of putting his animal's welfare before fame.
pattii55 9 months ago
@pattii55 So interesting how you change things when confronted. "Rigors" of the trip, yet they took the horse to Canada...LOL. HISTORICAL FACT: Interesting use of the term and what you try to do is avoid debate by suing the term. Funny how it just could NOT be anything else. Another MOW myth. As lways, keep DUCKING!!!
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge The Kentucky Derby wasn't even remotely most prestigious race in the country in 1920.
If you knew anything about history beyond "Secretariat's Meadow" then you'd know that the New York tracks were the center of the scene in 1920. MOW's owner Sam Riddle wanted to race in NY not Kentucky, so he could hobnob with the other well to do at society hangouts.
Riddle also routinely didn't race his 3 year olds at KD all the way up to War Admiral, when he relented.
Read a book sometime.
evyn10014 8 months ago
@pattii55 Thanks for the response. As predicted, you made a COMPLETE FOOL of yourself.
bbmtge 9 months ago
Sorry all - I am not this account, I'm actually OlLineRebel under my DH account. Please don't flood his account as you did last time I accidentally did this under his name.
SteelerFanRich1 9 months ago
Mar O War has been called the greatest Horse never to win the triple crown..
pussiologist1 10 months ago
@pussiologist1 Because those were 3 unrelated races in 1920, the "Triple Crown" label did not exist until 1930. Before 1930, no trainer or owner would have felt pressure to enter all 3 back then, like today. Unlike some of today's trainer's who treat their horses like objects, Riddle loved MW and thought it was too early in the year for a 3 year old to run 1-1/4mi. Riddle refused to race him at 4 because handicappers threatened 140+lbs. MW already carried 130 6x at 2 yrs, over 130 3x at 3yrs.
pattii55 9 months ago
him, secretariat and seabiscuit are in my eyes american legends.....
CowgirlKaity5466 11 months ago
@CowgirlKaity5466 Actually, Biscuit was a cheat - at least his trainer was. There have been allegations in the past that Seabiscuit was administered horse growth hormones (HGH) and other drugs by Tom Smith and Red Pollard. Smith was actually busted for drugging another horse. Biscuit does little at 2 and 3 years and suddenly starts winning under Smith - this just doesn't happen. It was observed that he looked bigger at the Anita in 1940, and he died much younger than most racers.
rcschumann 10 months ago
Secretariat has the track records, the triple crown and the greatest all time race ever...73 Belmont..as if you didn't already know. The man who voted Secretariat as 14th should be outed and strung up by the heels....obviously he has no integrity or respect for history.
cobyson100 1 year ago
@cobyson100 uhh Secretariat was ranked 2nd. behind man o war, in the official rankings, i don't know where you got that from.
Zenyatta20 1 year ago
@Zenyatta20 After the voting it was discovered that one of the voters ranked Secretariat 14th in order to skew the data towards man o war. Most do not even consider those rankings even valid anymore and many of the voters have publicly communicated outrage over this vote.
cobyson100 1 year ago 2
@cobyson100 oh okay, sorry :)
Zenyatta20 1 year ago
@cobyson100
Prove it. I've never yet seen anyone even say anything about the voting except Secretariat Groupie Bill Nack. And even his quote was that he HEARD someone on the panel put Sec 14th. Not even 1st-hand. Someone hearing that someone did something doesn't count as "discovering". Where is this public communication of outrage by these panelists (there were only 7 of these "many voters")? Who else expressed any rumors much less actual proof besides flacky Nack?
SteelerFanRich1 9 months ago
why does it cut off?
triptoheaveandho 1 year ago
"The Blood Horse" and ESPN voted Man O' War the best of the 20th century. People with actual in depth of racing knowledge and not just "fanboys" know which horse proved himself consistently against all odds: Distance, track surface, an off day, HIGH handicap weights at BOTH years. 1 loss because starting gates weren't invented yet and he was facing the wrong way of the track at the start and had to catch the field—and Upset's jockey admitted if he hadn't blocked him, he'd have won that race too.
pattii55 1 year ago
Comment removed
rscarbro100 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@pattii55 I did not know the #84 came before #35. What math school did you go too?? ESPN Top Athletes of The Past Century. Secretariat #35. Man 0' War #84 to clear up some of the confusion. Bloodhorse 7 panelist voted. One voted Secrfetariat #14. Seems like it was a little tainted to me.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100
I think patti refers to the HORSE-RACING people at ESPN conducting a STRICTLY horse-racing poll, as opposed to the ALL-ESPN panel of overall athletes. Sec won with the people who know little and more likely to vote new over old, and MOW won with the people who know more about horses and racing.
SteelerFanRich1 9 months ago
@pattii55 Thank you. Secretariat was amazing but the groupies are ridiculous.
evyn10014 9 months ago
@pattii55 ESPN!!! Care to retract that???
bbmtge 9 months ago
@pattii55 Now tell me...who was on the panel at BH...what were their credentials...who saw both horses run...and, most importantly, what is the controversy surrounding the "VOTE"???
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge Stop picking on the woman. Do you want me to name them? I can go fact for fact with you old man. They're all listed in the Blood Horse book and they're all top experts.
Controversy: 7 panelists. Secretariat and MOW each had the same number of 1st place votes. MOW got chosen #1 because he received one more second place vote than Secretariat -- because one panelist, I believe Trotter, voted Secretariat #14. Which of course, is ludicrous.
Now as the Beatles said, let it be...
evyn10014 9 months ago
@evyn10014 Learn to fight your own battles, you foolish HAG!!!
bbmtge 9 months ago
@evyn10014 If your husband or girlfriend is still around, send my sympathies to them for having to deal with such a level of illogic.
bbmtge 9 months ago
@pattii55 ESPN did NOT vote MOW #1. LIAR!!! Funny how not all articles on MOW's loss agree with you. Funny how many call it a loss and provide no excuse for him. Funny how Sec seemd to be able to have terrible starts and voercome the filed in record time. But, please, keep piling on the BS. It suits you. You are nothing but a repeater of LORE.
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge If ESPN didn't vote MOW no.1 that a shame and a scam . I compare MOW & Sec.to Babe Ruth & Barry Bonds.Ruth did his accomplishments on beer and hot dogs. Bonds on STEROIDS. Same as Sec.
23johnsonr 9 months ago
@23johnsonr My comment to despicable liars is that, simply, you are a despicable liar. Feel free to continue to make an idiot of yourself.
bbmtge 9 months ago
@bbmtge Right after the Belmont Stakes in 1973 there was a article published be a racing gentleman who had seen both Sec. and MOW race said and I quote: Secretariats win in the Belmont was the greatest race I have ever seen. But if MOW & Sec. were to race there is one thing for certain MOW would break to the lead and it would be up to Sec to catch him . Even on his best day I don't think he ever would. Man O' War would never allow Sec to beat him!
23johnsonr 8 months ago
@23johnsonr Without a doubt, one of the most asinine comments I have seen yet. Not one shred of logic. You dont even name the individual who, SUPPOSEDLY, said this. It is nothing more than an unsubstantiated opinion. Obviously, through such a stupid comment, you show that you know absolutely nothing about horseracing. Have you always been such a shallow thinker???
bbmtge 8 months ago
@23johnsonr Ijust realized that you are the LIAR who posted a prevoious moronic comment. So, run to your mommy's basmement for some self-abuse.
bbmtge 8 months ago
Arcaro being a class act and a gentleman..spoke properly. This is lost on many. You're taking a jockey's deepest respect about best horse...ridden "in the heat of battle" vs. his "gazing from the stands" as a spectator. Not insignificant but one carries a much higher weight or value than the other imo.....
Duckworth17 1 year ago
There are few, if any, thoroughbreds who can match the combined accomplishments of the great Northern Dancer, both on the track and at the stud farm. The respected "Thoroughbred Times" considers Northern Dancer to be the 20th century's best sire of sires.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Secretariat was climbing, understandably, in the Wood, declining to get up on the bit for the only time in his life. End of quote.
Again his clocking was comfirmed by Charles Hatton in his Marlboro Cup race 'Pullin Up" in 1:57 4/5. This was done on a "Wet Fast" track as was detailed in Whitney Tower article "They Made Pigeons of the Field". It was not done at Santa Anita on a slightly downhill track. Listed as one of the fastest tracks in
America. Again, "one hell of a horse".
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Writings of Charles Hatton DRF articles after Secretariat T.C, season posedt by Dan Illam DRF handicap editor. Another Charles Hatton quote:
He pulls up going faster than former champions ran." In the mile and a furlong Marlboro, he pulled up a mile and a quarter in 1:57 4/5. In the mile and a half Belmont, he pulled up a mile and five furlongs in 2:37 2/5. Both bettered world marks. Cont.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
DanI Illam Daily Racing Forum handicap editor quote:
His weight March 29, 1973 before the Triple Crown series, was 1,555 pounds. Weighed June 15 after these events, he tipped the beam at 1,131 pounds. His weight October 22, just previous to his farewell to colors, was 1,154 pounds. End of quote.
March 14th 1973 before his T.C. series he ran a 3/8 mile workout in 32 3/5 seconds. Thats was him weighing a whopping 1, 555 lbs. How about them apples??
One "HELL" of a horse!!
rscarbro100 1 year ago
;whose 31-length Belmont Stakes victory, in which he earned a Beyer of 137, is by consensus regarded as the greatest performance by a racehorse in history; and yet here was a voter who concocted a list suggesting that Secretariat would have finished last, behind 13 horses, in a field made up of that voter's first 14 horses on the list. It warped the voting and thereby tainted the list."
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 They must be regrouping...LOL!!!
bbmtge 1 year ago
@bbmtge They are sure looking for more material or it just might be they know they lost the debate. Going down the tubes in other words.(smile)
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 My guess is, people who mention the breeding shed are doing so because the 'proof is in the genes.' MOW had traits that are reliable indicators of genetic quality, which he could pass on to his progeny/next generation. Why do you think Sec became most sought after sire? His stud fee was ridiculously hefty, but people paid hoping to receive his traits/genes, unfortunately, Sec accomplished only modest success in breeding duties. MOW proved his brillance in every way conceivable.
TerraCLyn 1 year ago 2
@TerraCLyn You mean to tell me if a horse has better Genes then he is a better race horse?? first of all MOW foaled almost twice as many as Secretariat. Second the quality of mares he foaled And third the quality of mares his offspring foaled. They only use the 'Sire' theory trying to prove MOW was better after they ran out of excuses why they thought MOW was better. Its palin And simple. Thats the better quess.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 Not as simple as 'better genes, better horse.' All I'm saying is, MOW had all the genetic material necessary to create the finest thoroughbreds. America saw this on the race track, long before he retired to stud. MOW sired only 386 registered foals.
TerraCLyn 1 year ago
@TerraCLyn There was no horse that had better 'Genes' than Secretariat. No horse in history ever duplicate themselves through their offspring. Amercia seen it in his out of this world performances. He broke MOW records 'Pullin Up' And in his 'Workouts". Read the racing dean of horse racing the old time track expert Charles Hatton. He wrote for the Dail Racing Forum. At Pimlico they thought they pulled a good one on Secretariat But did not know the DRF were lurking near by with clocks in hand.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@TerraCLyn He foaled close to 900 mares. Only 386 registered. Why? Because the rest over 400 he did foal was not worth the grass to race on. A simple matter.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100
I can't even tell if you make a point, because you sound so incredibly stupid for saying that a stallion "foaled" anything. He COVERED close to 900 mares. He SIRED 386 registered foals.
Appoloni 1 year ago
@Appoloni What kind of point is it in the first place trying to use the fact he was a good sire makes him a great racehorse? Talking about stupid you belong in a class all by yourself, Tell me why the rest of those he foaled were never registered? So what in the hell the big fuss about him being a great sire in the first place. You MOW fans are getting so desperate for excuses your taking the issue to the breeding stall. Holy Cow
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100
I'm sorry but CHILL THE FUCK OUT. Sheesh, enjoy the damn video for once. If your going to be on Man O' War vids just to whine about who you think is better, then get of youtube and Get a life.
queenluciaa 1 year ago
Comment removed
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@queenluciaa I'm not sorry dip shit but you can watch the video without reading the comments dumb ass.Who said you was the boss? Take a jump in the lake.Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen Bozo.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 Excuse me, I made a typo. MOW sired 380 foals. Where did you get 900 from? MOW did not even sire as many foals as Sec. One advantage Sec had was the number of foals he sired, yet MOW is credited for being best sire of the 20th Century. It's all in the genes. ;-)
TerraCLyn 1 year ago
@TerraCLyn Excuse me. Your just about right. It was 379. My rear end is the blackest on that one But I did read somewhere he foaled over 800. I'm still checking. Where did you find he was credited the best sire of the 20th century?
Northern Dancer An exceptional sire, he was named the 20th century's best sire of sires, producing multiple champions in both the United States and the United Kingdom. source: Wikipedia. Maybe your ass is the backest here.(smile)
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 And MOW was named greatest horse of the 20th Century, yet you disagree, and that's fine. Yes, Northern Dancer was most successful sire, and 'one' of the best. Nearly every champion thoroughbred can trace their pedigree back to MOW (along with his important offspring), including Northern Dancer.
TerraCLyn 1 year ago
@TerraCLyn Man 0' War was named greatest horse of the 20 century only by Bloodhorse Magazine my good lady. With a panel of 6 men and one lady.One voted Secretariat 14th best.. Now does that make him the best?? I think not. Bloodhorse conducted a survey well before this panel of 7 were asked to vote who was the greatest. In that survey Secretariat unanimously was voted #1 as well as ESPN, Sports Illustraed. and by regular people hands down. Yet you disagree or I guess you just din't know that.
rscarbro100 1 year ago 2
@rscarbro100 I did not know Sec was voted number 1 by ESPN, etc., and yes, I disagree with the vote. I also disagree with Bloodhorse Magazine's ranking of Sec. While Sec may be in my top 5, he is certainly not my numbers 1, 2 or 3...
TerraCLyn 1 year ago
@TerraCLyn Seems like your not aware of a lot of things my good lady. I really respect your opinion even though I differ.My opinion also rest on the old time track experts. Did you know that Eddie Arcaro was the jockey of Citation and Whiraway? He rode Assualt, Kelso, Nashua That is two horses he rode ranked in the top 5. He has made statements many times he rated Secretariat the best. He told Ron turcotte he was the best no ifs ands or butts about it. He was the fastest horse he ever seen.Cont
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@TerraCLyn Eddie last interview was in 1996 he had with Los Angeles times staff writer Bill Christine in which in his artice titled Eddie Arcaro 'the master' is dead at 81 posted Nov. 15 1997 on page 2 quoted this:
Citation was the best 3 year old I ever rode, Kelso was the best 4 year old I ever rode but I rate Secretariat the best I ever seen. He told Ron Turcotte every person I spoke too that seen MOW & Secretariat said Secretariat was the best. That speaks volume does it not??
rscarbro100 1 year ago
-but it was an idiotic judgment that should have been dismissed out of hand. Had I known any voter would do such a thing, I'd have put Man o' War in fourteenth place just to counterbalance the loony. That would have leveled the playing field. Here was a horse who had broken three track records in all three Triple Crown races, including the controversial Preakness clocking, two of which records (Derby and Belmont) still stand today; Cont.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Author Bill Nack regarding the outcome of why Man'OWar was selected #1 in the The Blood-Horse poll. Mr. Nack was asked recently why Man'OWar was voted ahead of Secretariat for Horse of the Century, and Mr. Nack replied "I spent two days on the project. The final results were skewered when, I am told, one of the judges put Secretariat fourteenth on his top-100 list. I don't know who this particular voter was---individual voting has remained a secret on that panel---Cont.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Turcotte Quote:
Then came the Whitney at Saratoga. When Onion beat him he was a very
sick horse with a bad virus and a 103 degrees temperature. He wasn’t
feeling good when I worked him on Wednesday 3 days prior to the race.
Any other horse would have been finished for the rest of the year, but
being the iron horse that he was, after 3 weeks of walking around the
shed row, Mr.Laurin managed to train him hard enough to run in the
Marlboro Cup where he romped to a new World record.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Man o'War's jockey, Johnny Loftus, was suspected of having thrown the race and was denied a jockey's license in 1920 as a result, but in fact Upset won because of Knapp's clever tactics. He took his horse out fast but, instead of taking the lead, hung alongside Golden Broom to keep Man o'War boxed in along the rail. When the favorite finally moved to the outside to get around the two leading horses, Knapp drove Upset to victory in the 3/4-mile sprint.
Sourse: Hickok sports.com
rscarbro100 1 year ago
Warning to all who visit this and other MW video sites:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS HERE.
If you feed the Trolls they will crap day and night in your mailbox. : )
"Never Sleep With Pigs. You Get Dirty, and the Pigs Enjoy It."
pattii55 1 year ago
@pattii55 That's the best you can do. Absolute and complete foolishness. You cant handle being explicitly called out on your LIES so you resort to the idiot you truly are. Keep it coming It's to be expected from you.
bbmtge 1 year ago
@pattii55 The only 'TROOLS' here are running on rocks with weight attached to their legs.Honk, Honk.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
I have read a few articles by Dorothy Ours. I have no idea if she is a credible source. It don't matter to me if she thinks Secretariat the best or not. If she tells a lie for Secretariat I will call her out on it And have done that several times to Secretariat fans. I only want the truth no matter what horse it is on. The truth will last forever And a lie will find you out.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 My man, they simply cannot help themselves. It si funny to watch their posts degenerate into pure babbling.
bbmtge 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 Apparently the only research you've done on MOW is in Nack's book where he goes out of his way to find everyone he can to say Secretariat is better.
Dorothy Ours book is called Legend Like Lightning. It's universally praised as well-researched and objective, and it doesn't go into a comparison of the two horses, which you wouldn't know, as you haven't read it.
By the way, since you like "facts" Ours book is exhaustively annotated with every source.
evyn10014 9 months ago
home.comcast.net/~rebelkris/racing/manowar.html
theOlLineRebel 1 year ago
You'd think you two were Cuban commie revolutionaries the way you spew, but it's all over a horse. A horse. Give it a rest and take a chill pill.
theOlLineRebel 1 year ago
You all look like blathering fools, going off half-cocked rapid-fire with foam running from your mouths. You're like Linda Blair in the Excorcist and I expect your heads were spinning from the second you started posting here.
You are incomprehensible, constantly going off and spewing the same old "LIE!!!!!" hysteria post after post. Your constant libelous non-sequiturs are mind-boggling. You've spewed so much I can't waste time finding where "patti" wrote something wrong.
theOlLineRebel 1 year ago
@theOlLineRebel When you cant answer to the facts, you just start to run in circles like a blabbering idiot. Your downward spiral form loser to moron has been fun. Keep trying to tunr thigs around. You and your buddies spew nothing but lies and innunedo. We have the facts on our side. This is too funny.
bbmtge 1 year ago
@bbmtge
It's hard to "answer" anything when you somehow zip off 40 thousand posts in 15 min, and we don't even know what the question was, especially in between the insults. What's the point when you're a raving lunatic and won't let anyone get a word in edgewise?
theOlLineRebel 1 year ago
@theOlLineRebel If you cant keep up, as I am answering other's posts, then resume your self-abuse ritual, drink plenty of water, to rehydrate, and check back tomorrow.
bbmtge 1 year ago
tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttest
bbmtge 1 year ago
ttttttttttttttttttttttttttest
bbmtge 1 year ago
tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttest
bbmtge 1 year ago
Man 0' War had only a 1 1/8 mile Preakness to run And did not have the 1 1/2 mile Belmont test of champions to run. He never had to run more than 6 furlongs as a 2 year old And did not manage to make horse of the year. And when he did run a 1 1/2 mile race it was a weight of 118 lbs in a time of 2:28 4/5.When asked to carry 138bs it was for a distance of only 1 1/16 mile. when he was asked to carry 135 lbs it was only for a 1 mile distance. Boy was that 'Monster' sure tested.
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 You are clearly retarded now. MOW is undisputed as proving himself with weight. He carried 130 lbs as a 2 year old 6 times. When he carried 138 it was at the Potomac on a track surface they wouldn't even let a modern horse practice on now it was so bad.
Secretariat never carried more than 126 lbs.
You are, as the others suggest, nothing more than a Troll.
evyn10014 9 months ago
Comment removed
rscarbro100 1 year ago
test
bbmtge 1 year ago
When Man o' War was three, Kilmer tried for a match race between the two horses. Somehow, Man o' War's owner, Samuel Riddle, although seeming to agree, never managed to have that happen.Source: Wikipedia
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100
Take it from Dorothy Ours AND JKM Ross, son of owner of SB - they all got together, with tracks, to see what was most agreeable to all. Bottom line, Kilmer wanted longer races only, and wouldn't stand for anything less than 1-1/2mi. Riddle and Ross both agreed to a lesser distance and a track that would accomodate them. Better than Wiki, which you yourself might've written.
theOlLineRebel 1 year ago
@theOlLineRebel One does not HAVE to take it from them and treat it as gospel. There are differing accounts. You can choose to follow that line, blindly, to support how you "feel" or take into account that MOW, the best, the fastest, REFUSED to race Exterminator a mile and a half race. Nice try at twisting the facts.
bbmtge 1 year ago
@bbmtge
Yet, you proudly cite "source" as Wikipedia! LOL. Yes, that beats a researcher who wrote about MOW (and chooses Sec 1st, BTW) and a man who knew him and Sir Barton intimately.
Indeed, Riddle may not have wanted to race Ext AT 1-3/4, but he had no problem below 1-1/2. That's not twisting. Kilmer refused shorter distances. Ext. was beaten more than he won against Ross' CUDGEL - because of middle distances. Ext failed miserably in a simple time trial @ 1-1/4 even.
theOlLineRebel 1 year ago
@theOlLineRebel Suggest you clarify who says what before you comment. Further, your buddy tried this twist before and stated Ext camp refused to race MOW, then said they WOULD race him at 1 1/2 miles. You are telling conflicting stories with your buddy.
bbmtge 1 year ago
@theOlLineRebel The one thing in common all of the MOW " fanatics" have is simply believing what you want to believe in nearly 100 year old tales if it suits your fancy at the time. It's funny how you guyes cross each other up with different stories about the very same subject.
bbmtge 1 year ago
@bbmtge Like the lady said first the reason for MOW lost to Upset. It was because of the start. The she came back and said it was fixed. She read things in libraries but do not give the name of book or author But quick to give good reference if she finds something she thinks thats bad for Secretariat. They do trip all over themselves or more so tying themselves up in knots.
They have trouble supplying the beef.(smile)
rscarbro100 1 year ago
@rscarbro100 The same, as we have discussed, about racing less than allowance quality horses; no winning records, raced an older horse once who was in terrible shape. These are facts, not slights on MOW. He simply did not have to contend with what Sec did. Sec is made fun of for losing to Prove Out. Was Prove Out a great horse? No. But...he ran 2 phenomenal races in his career. I don't remember either MOW running 2:25 and 4 in the mud at 1 1/2 miles OR racing a horse who could.
bbmtge 1 year ago