(4 of 14) ITS WRONG TO PAY FOR SEX DEBATE - MELISSA FARLEY

[xcokenpepsi484]

What about studying the "Mary's" and not just the "Johns"?

[jjtiojohn12]

What about women going overseas and paying men for sex? women pay for sex too! they just don't pay for it in america like men do! women pay male strippers! so is that not wrong? she is going at men as if men are the only prime consumer of paying for sex.

[judesama11]

fuck we pay them anyways for sex you ignorant bitch!! dates are usually the guys job to pay for you 200 dollar meal that you only half eat. all people have a choice, but you seem to like playing victim.

[SAWSyEntertainment]

@judesama11 Not all women want men to pay for their meals; that's just a dumb generalization. And how is she playing victim?

Anyways, I too am on the fence about this. But, it seems that a lot of the issues brought up from this side really stem from the attitudes towards prostitutes, and maybe that's what needs to be changed. It could explain why rape and murder rates are so high, since it is common belief that they are worthless, making creeps believe their crimes are justified..

[SAWSyEntertainment]

@SAWSyEntertainment With that said, I can't imagine having sex and not really wanting it. It's consenting, sure, but it really does sound traumatic. That's not really an issue for all prostitutes though, is it? Namely, the privileged minority. I guess I don't think prostitution is intrinsically wrong or misogynistic, but had this been a debate about it's legality in the U.S., I see legalizing it being more dangerous than not. I dunno, this whole topic makes my head hurt.

[SAWSyEntertainment]

@SAWSyEntertainment Namely, the privileged minority.* I'm not really sure if they're the minority or not, sorry.

[MoosicallygGifted]

@judesama11 Trying to bribe them because "you paid for the meal" doesn't work. Never has, and it never will. Besides, most guys don't even fucking pay for meals/dates nowadays anyway! So there goes that argument...

[sillykatz]

i'm on the fence about prostitution i truly am. the kind in Germany where they have rights and are taken care of seems to be the best kind in my book, but then again the kind in Thailand seems to be the worst! though as a feminist i totally think objectifying women is wrong, i have talked to men who went to legit places and they told me that it was just sex, they weren't objectifying the woman, they just wanted to get laid and didn't have time for relationships. i'm just on the fence!

[Shukria123]

A man would have to be paid to have sex with this woman, and even then he probably couldn't finish the job.

[aileenwuornos89]

Rock on Ms. Farley

[RapfirePressLtd]

I can say there is a bar here in Mn, That has young gals working in there to entice the men and the owner get most of the money and the girls have to drag there bodies around the stage because she is so messed up on drugs she can hardly walk

. And a young girl 8 years old was taken from a laundromat that is but up against the building that has the gals working at lap dancing Do you see what has happend because you all think it is ok to have lap dancing clubs in our country. He raped the kid

[khalidsayd]

Its true that males are taking advantage of these things. Its because even if the female do prostitutions, the males who is a pimp get lots of money out of her.

[khalidsayd]

All female artists and dancers are prostitutes. They get crores for showing their body. And what about the girls in Dance Club? This girl is only emotional. In India just for catching boobs through outside it may cause 700. These women has to conduct a different debate . This debate has nothing to do with what this woman talks.

[Berelore]

not only do I find this woman's tactics appalling as she is yet again not addressing the real issue and trying to appeal to emotional irrationality.

But I also find the people flagging comments aimed at this video and the discussion as spam just because they don't like what they are saying. That is shameful.

[Ecdysiast96]

did you not listen to the man before you? We aren't debating the acceptability of coerced sex of any kind. Why didn't you interview male prostitutes as well? This is not an issue of women's oppression or exploitation, the premise of the debate is not gender specific. I didn't hear a philosophical argument, just depressing statistics that are tangentially related to the issue.

[underesteemed]

Right on, jewelbaby!

[didles123]

Men get raped all the time in prison.

Men in the military get their legs blown off.

Men break their backs to make ends meet.

But that's fine, because they need to take responsibility for their choices.

A woman gets a hundred dollars for a blow job

Wait! That's not a choice!

Sorry, but if you give women an 'accountability-free' card, you are only setting them back.

[thompsoncorey]

Women have a right to do whatever they want with their bodies as they please. This shouldn't even be a debate.

[LauraFeer]

Im more then 15 years am Sex Worker , and i love my job, am proud of it !

And don't mix the staff , many of us we like our job .

If you think somebody need help ,Help them don't lost you energy faith against sex work, you look too jealousy because you can't be Sex worker and now you going against us , that is psychological evidence !

[TrustowrthyRapist]

"vagina", lost me there. fap fap

[Markohoppis]

So as one can clearly see, the estimate is bullshit and their research is shit to be put it bluntly.

The only reason one would cling to these estimates is because of bias or stupidity, possibly a mixture of the two. Americans are very patriotic which makes them bias; thus considering the DOJ or as Americans call it God infallible in their estimates.

[Markohoppis]

Continued from previous post:

"It seems incredibly unlikely that this was a robust, sound analysis," said David Banks, a statistics professor at Duke University.

[Markohoppis]

A CIA analyst ran the research through a computer simulation program, said government officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing the CIA's methods. It spat out estimates of destination countries for trafficking victims worldwide. The new number of victims trafficked into the United States: 14,500 to 17,500 each year.

The simulation is considered a valid way to measure probability if the underlying data are reliable.

[Markohoppis]

Ronald Weitzer, a criminologist at GWU and an expert on sex trafficking, said that trafficking is a hidden crime whose victims often fear coming forward. He said that might account for some of the disparity in the numbers, but only a small amount.

"The discrepancy between the alleged number of victims per year and the number of cases they've been able to make is so huge that it's got to raise major questions," Weitzer said. "It suggests that this problem is being blown way out of proportion."

[multiquantumcheck]

Human Trafficking:

"An estimated 600,000 to 800,000 people are trafficked across international boarders each year, and approximately 80% of trafficking victims are women and girls"

(U.S. State Department, 2005 Trafficking in Persons Report)

U.S. State Department vs. "Markohoppis".

Anyone wish to place bets on who is going to win?

[multiquantumcheck]

The U.S. State Department and the U.S. Department of Justice vs. "Markohoppis" and his imaginary 'sources'.

The fight of the century.

[multiquantumcheck]

I do not believe that a disturbed individual like "Markohoppis" who laughs at raped women and believes that "Swedish men deserve nothing but contempt and violence" is qualified to opine on things like prostitution.

[Markohoppis]

The bias, bitterness, and personal attacks seen here in these comments should be testament to how radical feminism is fraught with lunatics. This should be a warning to those who wish to become associated with this hateful irrational ideology.

Remember to always question everything, even estimates compiled by government sources. As we've seen with the British Home Office and their 6% false rape conviction rate (58% found by the Stern Review), even governments are not completely reliable.

[Markohoppis]

Your argument is only as strong as your sources, and your sources have been found to be wrong.

[Markohoppis]

Big government statistics, how infallible they are! Once purported that 50,000 people were trafficked into the USA every year, but found that not even 3% of that was found in over several years!

Stupid ass Christians and feminists unite to form big lying pathetic mob of epic fail in the US government. More laws, more government control, more fear.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Yes, it is quite common for paranoid reactionary paraphilics who wish to make women easy prey and deny them equality to feel this way.

The U.S. Department of Justice is the only reliable source on anything crime related. Their stats are inconvenient for you, I see that, but they are true nonetheless.

Get off that carousel of denial and join sane America.

[Markohoppis]

@multiquantumcheck First off, you misread the statistic. The 600,000 to 800,000 describes international borders, not just America.

This comes from the DOJ website: "Each year, an estimated 14,500 to 17,500 foreign nationals are trafficked into the United States." Key word here, eeeeeestimated. Evidence in the form of prosecutions and arrests do not corroborate this estimate.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

A newsflash for those with impaired reasoning ability: Since there is a dark figure to ALL crime, ALL crime statistics are merely estimates.

Another newsflash for those with impaired reasoning ability: Most criminals are NOT arrested and prosecuted.

Believing that prosecutions ans arrests should 'corroborate' crime statistics is a sign of imbecility.

[Markohoppis]

@multiquantumcheck The estimate is terribly terribly off for the United States, and as the video shows, it is off for Britain as well. It is bullshit, deal with it.

prosecutions and cases show evidence, something that I imagine you are not wont to consider as any irrational moron would.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

And I do not see how the fact that children and women are trafficked and held as slaves in nations other than the U.S. is somehow 'irrelevant'.

[summersonset]

@multiquantumcheck yeah, he has no problem with people (mostly women) being trafficked and women being raped. If he then can distort any legit research he will. Its like a creationist wanting to deny the facts of evolution. But then this guy is a sociopath on top of it.

[multiquantumcheck]

@summersonset

Well, what do you expect. He is a Misogynists' Rights Activist.

[Markohoppis]

@summersonset America has found 1,300 cases of human trafficking in six years, but it estimates 14 to 17 thousand a year. The estimate came from the CIA of which will not divulge its research methods.

If you are not skeptical of these estimates, you are obviously bias. There is no evidence to support their estimates. Any rational person can see this, even academics who fight human trafficking can seen this.

[Markohoppis]

watch?v=PtaEdI3aiwg

This video expounds on sex trafficking myths as well. Anyone who believes that 600,000 800,000 people are trafficked each year is an utter moron. Almost a million people? People need to investigate this utter nonsense before they spout it off.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

The U.S. Department of Justice is responsible for the numbers. And anyone who believes that the U.S. Department of Justice is a 'moron' is a mentally ill Misogynists' Rights Activist.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Aw, goodie, Another YT video to 'disprove' statistics by the U.S. Department of Justice.

When will Misogynists' Rights Activists get the psychiatric help and mood stabilizers they so desperately need?

[multiquantumcheck]

Aw, why am I not surprised that my comment was marked as spam? No biggie. I'll just repost it.

Research shows that AT LAEST one-third of men ADMIT they would rape a woman if they could escape detection (Malamuth 1986, 1989a, 1989b; Knight & Sims-Knight 2003; Seto & Kuban 1996).

Imagined sexual aggression is the key factor predictive of actual sexual aggression (Den & Malamuth 1997; Kenrick & Sheets 1993).

99% of U.S. rapists are men (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999).

[Markohoppis]

These women are ill equipped to argue against prostitution. Emotive tones and language always trumps reason and intelligence I guess. This is a fucking joke.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Says the depraved syphilitic ament who uses words like "idialogue" to seem marginally less imbecilic but ends up using them wrong.

Yes, you truly are a joke.

[Markohoppis]

Are all these women feminists who use straw men and emotive arguments? Pathetic.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Your ignorance of what constitutes 'straw man and emotive arguments' is a sign of your general imbecility.

It takes a Misogynists' Rights Activist to disregard the message and attack the messenger.

Start foaming at the mouth, you silly lewd boy.

[Markohoppis]

Feminist troll much? It's rather obvious you hate men. I've never seen an intelligent person call someone an imbecile as a counterargument, and that being their only counterargument.

I doubt any study that claims one third of men admit that they would rape. I've heard of this study before, and I recall that it was debunked and criticized as misandry passed off as science. this is why feminism should be removed from all universities.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

If you believe that it is 'hating men' to point out that buying, hurting and degrading women, then all sane people are 'men haters'.

It takes a borderline desperate Misogynists' Rights Activist to argue that luminaries such as Neil Malamuth from UCLA or Raymond Knight from Brandeis are 'misandrists'.

[multiquantumcheck]

Male college students were asked: "If you could be assured that no one would know and that you could in no way be punished for engaging in the following acts, how likely, if at all, would you be to commit such acts?". Among the sexual acts listed were "forcing a female to do something she really didn't want to do" and "rape" etc.

More than one third ADMITTED said YES to rape. Now one can only imagine how many were to cowardly to admit it... Creepy.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Your ignorance of what constitutes 'straw men and emotive arguments' is a sure sign of your general imbecility.

It takes a Misogynists' Rights Activist to disregard the message and attack the messenger because she happens to be a *gasp* woman *gasp*.

Class dismissed. You may return to you adolescent porn collection or cuddling your mother's underwear.

[summersonset]

@multiquantumcheck Markohoppis is a sociopath, read my comment to him. For evidence I'll send you the video where he made his sociopathic comments to the raped woman, and can send you his private message to me.

[multiquantumcheck]

@summersonset

Please do.

[summersonset]

@Markohoppis sociopath much?

[Markohoppis]

Those who are not swayed by their emotions in a "logical" debate are sociopaths?

Anything this woman says must be analyzed and critiqued. This woman is using her own research to argue a point as if her research fell from the heavens onto stone tablets. I have seen many different types of "research" and "studies" debunked, especially ones produced by feminists on topics such as DV, child abuse, human trafficking, and rape. She is an ideologue, not an impartial scientist. This is self-evident.

[summersonset]

@Markohoppis I happen to recall on another video where a woman spoke about her having been raped, you made jokes about it, to her, to others. I spoke with you, you made more nasty sociopathic comments, then sent me message apologizing saying you were only joking. I guess youre joking now as well. Thats good to know, so then we can ignore you.

[multiquantumcheck]

@summersonset

Hey, can you send me a PM about which video it was and the approximate date when he posted his little rape fantasies and rape jokes? I want to be able to quote him.

[summersonset]

@multiquantumcheck sent.

[multiquantumcheck]

@summersonset

Received.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

We don't need 'research' on these subjects. We have statistics compiled by the U.S. Department of Justice and other governmental reliable and unbiased sources.

"An estimated 600,000 to 800,000 people are trafficked across international boarders each year, and approximately 80% of trafficking victims are women and girls"

(U.S. State Department, 2005 Trafficking in Persons Report)

[Markohoppis]

@multiquantumcheck Hardly any source is unbiased. I have read the same statistics, and have found them to be false through investigation. I would urge anyone to Google "trafficking myths" before taking any government statistic at face value.

[Markohoppis]

Although there have been several estimates [of human trafficking] over the years, the number that helped fuel the congressional response -- 50,000 victims a year -- was an unscientific estimate by a CIA analyst who relied mainly on clippings from foreign newspapers, according to government sources who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the agency's methods.

[Markohoppis]

Former attorney general Alberto R. Gonzales told Congress last year that a much lower estimate in 2004 -- 14,500 to 17,500 a year -- might also have been overstated.

[Markohoppis]

a sociologist who studies migrant sex workers. In her writings, she is critical of the conflation of the terms "human trafficking" with "prostitution" and "migration", arguing that what she calls the "rescue industry" often ascribes victim status to and thereby objectifies women who have made conscious and rational decisions to migrate. She advocates for a more nuanced study of migrant sex workers without pre-conceived notions.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Now wait a minute: Did you not just argue that women were inherently 'emotional' and could not be trusted to be 'reasonable'. And now here you are rambling about some woman and her findings! As long as the results are convenient for you, I guess. Silly lewd boy.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Aw, really? An 'unscientific' estimate by the CIA analyst? Quelle surprise!

How can you expect people to take you seriously?

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Indeed, why should we believe statistics by the U.S. Department of Justice if we have your word that rape is no biggie and human trafficking is a myth?

Fortunately, most of us have all of their chromosomes.

[multiquantumcheck]

"91% of U.S. rape victims are female and 9% are male, with 99% of the offenders being male" (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999)

"84% of spouse abuse victims were females, and 86% of victims of dating partner abuse at were female. Males were 83% of spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers"

(Matthew R. Durose et al., U.S. Department of Justice 2005)

[Markohoppis]

Domestic violence: watch?v=VOu_BszChIE

The statistics on DV used in this video (also from credible sources) shed more light on the domestic abuse phenomenon portraying both men and women almost equally as capable of committing and being victims of DV. Tends to show that even government statistics are not infallible.

Yet I don't see how this spam is pertinent to the topic of prostitution.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Aw, classic Misogynists' Rights Activist strategy: Insist against all logic and evidence that governmental statistics are false and youtube videos are true.

[multiquantumcheck]

"96% of all the offenders in sexual assaults reported to law enforcement were male."

(Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement, U.S. Department of Justice 2005)

As you see, the government compiles statistics like these. I assume you will start harping on governmental statistics now?

[Markohoppis]

@multiquantumcheck What does this statistic have to logical do with a "study" or survey that says one third of men would rape a woman?

College men, sounds like a real good sample of the population there. As I said before, I have read critiques of this, and it has been shown to be nonsense. From what I remember of the study, the questions were worded in a way to elicit a positive reply from the men being surveyed.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Markohoppis

Those were several studies performed by several male scientists and all of them support the findings of the first study performed by UCLA professor Neil Malamuth. The wording was:

"If you could be assured that no one would know and that you could in no way be punished for engaging in the following acts, how likely, if at all, would you be to commit such acts?". Among the sexual acts listed were "forcing a female to do something she really didn't want to do" and "rape" etc.

[Anarkokommunist]

No wonder there are Male chauvinists when there are women like these. Seriously, how fucking stupid can people get? Thank Norris that countries like Germany ignore r-tards like this woman.

[multiquantumcheck]

@Anarkokommunist

Oh, there are plenty 'male chauvinists' - with or without this wonderful intelligent woman.

For instance, research shows that AT LAEST one-third of men ADMIT they would rape a woman if they could escape detection (Malamuth 1986, 1989a, 1989b; Knight & Sims-Knight 2003; Seto & Kuban 1996). Imagined sexual aggression is the key factor predictive of actual sexual aggression (Den & Malamuth 1997; Kenrick & Sheets 1993).

Now the is the epitome of misogyny and 'male chauvinism'.

[watermelonygoodness]

Just because bad things happen to women who are prostitutes doesn't make prostitution inherently wrong. It means that prostitution should be legal so it can be monitored! I hope someone makes this point!

[multiquantumcheck]

@watermelonygoodness

It is quite common for johns and/or misogynists to feel this way.

[multiquantumcheck]

@watermelonygoodness

It is quite common for johns and/or misogynists to feel this way.

[PotheadPundit]

3:56 Not true. most street pimps take 100% of the earnings. Not 50% . So getting 50% is not the norm. 6:18 People do rent other peoples bodies. They're called surrogate mothers.

[pfarabee]

This woman has convinced me of my evil ways. Round up all the prostitutes and send them back to Burger King. Oh wait.. there aren't any jobs there for them either, yeah.. uh... I guess let them starve then.

[anikinippon]

No doubt, perhaps also the fact that all for the motion that "It's wrong to pay for sex" are all feminists and all against the motion are not feminists. Perhaps something has to do with that.

[anikinippon]

Why is it when they people about prostitution, they only talk about the women in it and the man is always the asshole that makes them victims?

[tailgunner2]

Folks, I have a question: I am a man whom,never had any intimate contact with a woman from puberty to today ( a fifteen year period of time, until I became the age of 25. Up until that age, I was not only a virgin, but a construction worker, a veteren, and a colege graduate. It was when I was deplayed to Germany is when I found myself in Amsterdam's "Red Light District"

[tailgunner2]

*Hit submit by mistake* Anyway, in Germany, It was then and only then was I under the influence of alcohol and peer pressure to hire up one such prostitute's services. If it wasn't for this woman, I would still be a virgin today, since I never had a date nor intimate contact with a woman from puburty to today (A 15 year period) otherwise. Would, or even should, I consider myself a rapist? Thought she herself did not seem to resist in any in of manner? If so, then offer my apologies to all.

[pfarabee]

No, you should not consider yourself a rapist. She participated in whatever you did together voluntarily, in exchange for payment rendered.

Amsterdam's "Red Light District" has a very long past; forced prostitution has been a problem there before, though much of it has been corrected. If she seemed reserved or if her smiles seemed forced, perhaps she was there against her will, but from your description, it sounds like she was there of her own accord.

[Helios910]

What about independent escorts that do it voluntarily? Are they not ok? Prostitution has its uses. Someone with sexual problems can hire an escort to act as a sexual surrogate to help them. Its not always demeaning for the woman involved either. The client can be courteous and respect the prostitute. He gets what he wants and so does she. No harm done.

[zzzzz5fulx]

it's amazing to see how much people can deny the legitimacy and the knowledge of feminist. This attitude comes from deep sexist denial of everything that could change the life of billions of women and that could destroy violent and global male power

Pimps are abusive when they own human and sell it : this is the abuse. Violence and murder is the consequence of this crime against the humanity of women There is no right use of human in selling them !

[leggytv]

She completely ignores the conditions that exist in countries where prostitution is legal.

She doesn't acknowledge the point of this debate, which is to figure out if prostitution is wrong between two consenting adults, who are not being coerced by poverty or force.

[wadams19]

exactly. the reason why some johns and pimps are so abusive is because of the illegality of the sex business. this is exactly the same reason that the drug traffickers are violent and psychopathic.

when something is illegal, it only attracts people with a penchant for illegality. if the sex business were legal, then honest businessmen would dominate the market, not thugs and hooligans.

[lbridet]

Also, there is a problem with the "if you have to offer a BJ to get mil, it's not a choice" argument. Would it be doing a service to that woman to outlaw her from getting that mil? As destitute as she is, her behaviour shows us that getting food through this means is still preferable to her second-best option... if she has one.

I guess one is generally better off prostitute than dead from starvation.

[lbridet]

1) Lawlow: True

2) "Johns are the most likely to commit rape". Well, suppose it is true (I have no idea, but it is possible). Then should we assume that if they weren't Johns, they would stop raping ? Or that their means of getting sex is distributed between paying and raping, and that removing the first source may in fact lead to substitution to more harmful ways ?

[justgivemethetruth]

There is a nugget of the root of this problem in your post, people have a need to control, dominate, it is part of sex, they say rape is about power. People have an innate need for power, and trying to commoditize that to bribe some men not to be violent by enslaving a certain number of men or women, it is problematic. This is about allowing rich people to use those without money, and if they do not want to be used, they are then coerced or forced in other ways.

[Lawlow1978]

She didnt address the fact that most men pay for sex regardless of prostitution. We must keep our girlfriends and wives happy with money and things.

this debate is about paying for sex, not prostitution.

[justgivemethetruth]

No, it is not, the debate is not about indirect payment for sex, that is voluntary and not coerced. This is about at the root of it saying it is OK to enslave people, because people need slaves.

[ThePepperKing]

I know that Farley's published work comes under fire for bias, but it's great to see her bring the sum of her research to the debate. I don't think any of the other participants were quite as well informed.

[lbridet]

ThePepper: she seems informed indeed, but as Lawlow brings up, her knowledge of the field may come at a price in generality. Her discussion narrows the scope of the question to what she has studied most.

On the + side, she at least knows how to manage her speech time...