Argument for Torah's Divinity (New Version) Part Four

[TheMasterbane]

I agree with some of the things you said, however, I think it is pointless to disparage the other religions. It shouldn't matter what they believe, as long as they are good people..

Also science should be viewed as the study of God's creation, not something horrible.

I also think there is a another possibility as to how the revelation could have been a lie that the Torah was given to the Jews once they were in Israel and created the story of Exodus.

[TheMasterbane]

I'd also like to add that evolution and creationism can be two different perceptions of the same thing. The "days" don't have to be our 24 hour days. They could represent eras. Genesis should not be taken overly word for word.

[keliata]

Benoit Mandelbrot's discovery of "self similarity" in nature makes an excellent argument for the Torah's divinity, too, from a scientific standpoint.

There wouldn't be so much similiarity in nature and ordered chaos were the universe not created by Hashem.

[KoolAiddroolaid]

Do you guys have the oral law because its not the same as adding to the Torah if it's not written in it and can be changed unlike the Torah? Did God say you have to have oral too or did that just come in because the Torah was hard to understand? What do you say about people who say they have personal experience's with God who aren't Jewish do Jew just think they're crazy people? Do Jews think God only likes them?

[vulcanmat613]

Of course g-d said to have an oral law - he gave it to us at mount sinai along with the written law.

[keliata]

Yes. As I've been taught the Torah is what Moshe heard and what he taught.

[vulcanmat613]

G-d loves all his creations, but he treasures his chosen people because we keep his laws - no one else does.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

G-D certainly treasures his chosen people but The Torah commands an elaborate sacrificial system in the The Temple in Jerusalem, by a Levitical priesthood. Who "keeps" HIS laws regarding blood sacrifices? Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. In the midst of all the judgements pronounced in Lamentations, in 4:4 G-D slips in, "The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold". G-D loves his people unconditionally, but HE still judges them for their rebellion.

[vulcanmat613]

Oh please, the system of teshuvah rarely includes bringing sacrifices, they are only brought for cetain specific sins, your statement revelas profound ignorance. We can repent completelty without them - we only bring sacrifices when we have the temple. Do you think g-d just says "ok, do what you want, bring a sacrifice, and all will be forgiven"? Oh wait, he just wants you to bow down to his mangod/savior/son thing instead! Watch my series on christianity and keep quiet.

[keliata]

Right. And the blood from the slain animals would have been completely drained from them if I am not mistaken.

[keliata]

I understand that Hashem is of course righteous, merciful and just and does judge even His chosen people.

But as for blood sacrifices? Read Tehillim about sacrifices of the lips, praise and worship being more meaningful to Him. Look in Tehillim 50:23. Or Tehillim 51:17 "The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit: a broken and contrite heart, O G-d thou will not despise."

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

Yes, and G-d wants obedience and real repentance. But the Tanach has approx. 50 chapters pertaining to Korbanot, and scads of references to blood sacrifices. Even now His covenants (circumcision, marriage consummation) are sealed with blood. Should we dismiss all that based on 2 verses? If you were transported back in time to that first Passover in Egypt, would you have applied the blood or refused to do so based on your interpretation of the 2 verses?

[keliata]

Nowhere in the Tanach indicate that a HUMAN sacrifice was ever required by G-d. During the first Pesach the doorposts were painted with animal blood, not human.

Further, if JC was the Orthodox Jew you make him out to be, why in the world would he have told his disciples that drinking wine was the same as drinking his blood--when Jews are of course forbidden from drinking blood in Leviticus?

Odd analogy for an Orthodox Jew to use, isn't it? A Jew would never have used that analogy.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

Human sacrifice is forbidden to us because only G-d has the authority to sacrifice or take/authorize the taking of human life. The animal sacrifices were only tokens or symbols of the real sacrifice that G-d would provide, just as sacramental wine is only a symbol of Yeshua's blood--it doesn't literally become blood. Like all physical memorials, the physical element provides a psychic reality to our meditation on what G-d has sacrificed for us.

[keliata]

We are all made in G-d's image. Since He has no semblance of a body that can only mean that we should resemble Him and His ways. Hashem described the kings of Israel who sacrificed their children to moloch "evil."

Human sacrifices are abhorrent to Hashem and He would not ask us to do what He abhors.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

We're created in G-d's image so we're not animals. Our true core selves are spirit. Yet we have a physical extension that is animal in form.

G-d is a spirit. He is infinite so HE would never be confined in a human body. But do you think that HE is incapable of manifesting a human form as an extension of HIMSELF?

Read Joshua 5. Did G-d manifest himself to Joshua as a man or did Joshua worship a man?

In v.5 the "Man" says the same thing that G-d said to Moses from the burning bush (Ex.3).

[keliata]

I am pretty certain that when the Tanach speaks of us being made in G-d's image He means to resemble in in attributes such as kindness, mercy, righteousness, not an animal form.

There is also a verse in the Tanach which clearly states "G-d is not a man." In fact He refers to Moshe as "the MAN Moshe" indicating that G-d is not a man, and even Moshe, the greatest Evad Hashem was just a man.

A true eved Hashem is one who knows who his master is and serves no other.

[keliata]

Could G-d manifest Himself as a man? He can do anything is unlimited, which is why He would not take a physical form. That would confuse utterly the belief that G-d is not a man and by taking a physical form as G-d it would lead to others, mere men, claiming that they too were a god incarnate, which JC did, leading millions into idolatry.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

G-d isn't restricted to what you or I think He should or shouldn't do. In Gen. 32:25-32 we're told that Jacob wrestled with a "man" and after it was over, Jacob said "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (JPS 1917). How do you explain that? Why was Jacob so desperate for the "man's" blessing (v.27-29)?

All the false Messiahs have faded into history, but Yeshua has more followers alive on the Earth today than in all the previous 20 centuries combined.

[keliata]

They haven't faded into history. People still remember them. By your logic, any false prophet or false messiah that is remembered and revered after his lifetime must be legitimate? Well, Muslims believe Mohammed was a prophet too. And have for 1000 years.

You're quoting from an Enlish translation of the Tanach, which even a good translation misses the nuances of the Hebrew text which is of critical importance is studying scripture.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

I copy and paste from JPS as its online. Is there a verse I posted that is significantly mistranslated?

We can quibble over interpretative minutiae endlessly but the recent phenomenal growth in of the number believers in Yeshua is a clearly a sign from G-d and a fulfillment of prophecy--because it is synchronous with the restoration of Israel. There is a direct connection between Israel and this worldwide spiritual revival which had its origins in or about 1948 and is accelerating.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

In 1948: less than 1 Million Chinese believers in Yeshua. Today: 130 million.

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

(Habakkuk 2:14)

I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28)

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the LORD; {N}

and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee (Ps. 22:28)

The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (Is. 11:9)

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

As you can see, Yeshua has fulfilled these prophesies (to be a light to the Gentiles):

It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth. (Is. 49:6)

unto him shall the nations seek(Isaiah 11:10)

(I will) set thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the nations...them that sit in darkness (Is. 42:6&7)

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

Gentiles coming to the G-d of Israel through Yeshua in unprecedented numbers since Israel was born-again in 1948 proves that Yeshua also fulfills this prophecy:

so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men. So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive. (Isaiah 52: 14&15)

and (Psalm 2:7&8) + (Zech. 9:10)

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

In 1948, less that 1% of Koreans were followers of Yeshua. Today So. Korea may field more evangelists than any other nation.

In 1948, Indonesia was solidly Muslim. Now 20% follow Yeshua.

In India, Brazil, the Philippines and the entire African Continent, people are responding to Yeshua in unprecedented numbers.

They've put their faith in The G-d of Israel. They study the Tanach and G-d is bringing positive change in their lives. They have become friends and supporters of Israel.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

(to Moses): 'Draw not nigh hither; put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. (Ex. 3:5)

("man" speaking To Joshua)'Put off thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy.' And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:15)

Doesn't it sound like the same Person is speaking to both men? Particularly since Joshua now held Moses' position? The kohenim also had to be barefoot when they served in The Temple as they were in G-d's presence.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

Abraham obeyed G-d's command to sacrifice Issac (Gen.22). That whole scenario was set up by G-d as just one of many prophetic dramas that hinted at G-d's plan to redeem us. Notice that Issac (like Yeshua) was required to carry the wood on which he would be sacrificed. And after G-d called it all off, Abraham said (v. 8) that G-d would provide the "lamb" for the sacrifice, but v. 13 says that G-d provided a "ram" that day. The "lamb" in v. 8 is not a mistake--it's deliberate and prophetic.

[keliata]

Yes, and again ANIMAL sacrifices. "G-d will seek out for Himself a lamb." The Midrash teachs that Isaac understood this to mean that he would be the sacrificial lamb. But in Hashem's infinite mercy he made a substitution for Isaac "the lamb" for a ram.

The differences between ram and lamb reflect Hashem's substitution of a sacred HUMAN life, a lamb, for a ram.

[YerushalayimShelZaha]

Actually, G-d provided Yeshua to replace Issac as the "lamb". Issac was just a stand-in for a rehearsal.

Yeshua was the real Passover lamb. All the others were and are symbols for Him; just as the wine is just a symbol for the blood he shed and the wood on Issac's back was just a symbol for the cross that Yesua would eventually carry on His own back.

[primeralives]

Matisyahu, this was an excellent series and i got so much out of it. Thank you so mich.

Tony

[rulllar]

there's nothing wrong with science. Discovering where we come from is not irrelevent and can be a life mission. You being religious, should appriciate the quest to discover the world god gave us and for us to try to learn hidden secrets that god made/left/put in.

[vulcanmat613]

I never said there was anything wrong with it - on the contrary it can be an amazing tool for faith in g-d. I was speaking about modern pop science, which is not science, but rather an excuse for atheistic amorality. Discovering where you come from does not help you become a better person - it can be a life mission, but a pretty empty one, especially given the fact that you can skip the years of research and come to the same result by opening a chumash with rashi.

[vulcanmat613]

The beauty is, g-d gave us the secrets in the torah - plus the spiritual secrets of the world cannot be found in a laboratory at all. Another aspect is that science today rejects anything(including g-d) that cannot be reproduced in a lab or does not conform to our 5 senses and measurements. It's very limited - it always has been, and this is why science has its purpose, but it is being raped today by self-righteous, arrogant, narrow-minded atheists.

[rulllar]

but in any case the torah has messages which people interpret differently. How do you know you live correctly? My reading of Beireshit say to me that eating meat and having animal sacrifices is complete opposite of what was intended, as seen by the start and by noah story. Yet many religious do it every day and even more on many holiday occasions.

Maybe peoples fulfillment with torah is in the reading rather than the "correct living"?

[vulcanmat613]

What you described is not Judaism. Nothing I do is based on my understanding, or my rabbi's understanding, or anything like that. The torah is not open to interpretation by those who are not familiar with its intricate rules of interpretation. We believe that all of our understanding of torah(which includes every sefer written by torah jews for the past 3000 years) was given to us at mount sinai; this idea of an unbroken chain of understanding is a basic idea in judaism, known as mesorah.

[vulcanmat613]

If I say "this is what I think bereshit means.." I have said nothing, because everything in Judaism must have a source. In a court of law you must present evidence in accordance with the laws of that court, and all the creativity and imagination will not help you if your idea is not based on those laws - how much more so for g-d's never-changing wisdom and will expressed in the torah and talmud.

[vulcanmat613]

The truly beautiful thing is, we have been able to sustain this chain of understanding, without changing it at all, for thousands of years, it is not a rigid system but a multi-faceted one, however that does not mean you can make things up or invent ideas or interpretations not founded in the mesorah, or "handing down". Making up interpretations goes against the law of not adding to the torah or deleting from it.

[vulcanmat613]

I would like to see who "some people" are. If by chance you mean groups like conservative and reform, than no proof can be drawn from them - they reject torah's divinity and by extension the divinity of the understanding of the torah. More than just the chumash was given to us by g-d - that's where oral torah comes in, and I think I have explained that general idea pretty well already.

[vulcanmat613]

There's one final aspect - the torah has many commandments, such as "slaugher kosher" and "keep shabbos" and "wear tefillin" but it never explains how - the answer is the oral law. Through the oral law, or torah sheba'al peh, we have understood the commandments in all their intricacies for 3000 years.

[rulllar]

(i'll reply to you on your last reply to me):

"God did not permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every green herb shall they all eat together." - Rashi on genesis 1:29.

I appriciate that one cannot make a ruling, but the truth is that today the rabbis do have the power of interpretation. Laws are to be made by the wise rabbis of their generation are they not? Any new questions must be answered by them.

[vulcanmat613]

Laws are not made. Pre-existing laws are merely applied to new situations - no new laws are ever made, that would be adding to torah. For example, lightbulbs are forbidden on shabbos, but they werent around when torah was given - we merely apply the concept that whenever metal is heated to the point of glowing that is considered "kindling a fire". No new law, just application and decision.

[vulcanmat613]

I never said that rashi was wrong. I said that your interpretation of not eating meat now, in our time, is wrong, since midrashim later explain that after the flood man was allowed to eat meat. Rabbis today do NOT make new laws - I just got through explaining this to you, but for some reason you still think they make up laws not found in the torah/talmud. Questions, or sha'alos, are answered BASED on pre-existing laws - never has a new law been made and passed off as torah law.

[rulllar]

For example, as a rabbi explained to me, the eruv is a creation of the rabbis. I was explained how the eruv did not actually exist, but there is a ruling concerning shabbat, keys and too many people in a certain space (this was explained 6 years ago so I may have got details wrong). Due to constant unintentional breaches, the rabbis eventually placed this NEW ruling that is now accepted and done everywhere by religious communities. Nothing to do with god in any direct term.

[vulcanmat613]

Not true, at all. King solomon made the eruv, but he used pre-existing principles (reshus harabim, vs. reshus hayachid and karmelis). The rabbis cannot change torah anymore than I can - to say they invented something against torah or not found in torah(with the exception of decrees made as fences around torah) is ridiculous and baseless.

[rulllar]

back to (went off track) the food question as an example, all the food given to man was herbs and fruits. What happened later is after man was declared evil from it's youth (Noah) the dietary laws changed. One can find cases of interpretations by many respected rabbis that have caused them to go vegetarian.

Smoking is another example. MANY orthodox Jews smoke. But many consider it a sin as you must take care of yourself,

so again, how can they be living happy torah lives?

[vulcanmat613]

I have found no respected rabbi who is a vegetarian based on noah - we have many commandments which include using animals, like korban pesach, tefillin, meat on shabbos, and many others. Being vegetarian because of health reasons is another story. Many orthodox Jews smoke, but that does not mean it is ok - we make mistakes too. However the RCA ruled that it is forbiddden - not a new law, just an application of "shmiras haguf"

[rulllar]

But does that mean that they are not following Judaism? In Israel you regularly see the Orthodox and rabbis leave synagogue as soon as Shabbat ends and light up a cigarette as their first act. Again, this many not be reflective on you, but I am saying in terms of "what is it to be a real follower" since they clearly believe they are following all the rules.

[vulcanmat613]

Halacha is not one-sided. There are disagreements, because the system of halacha is flexible and multi-faceted, but again that does not mean that new laws are added. Two very qualified rabbis may disagree based on mere differences in the application of the countless laws in torah - smoking is a good example. While in america, the RCA(rabbinical council of america) ruled it forbidden to smoke, maybe rav ovadia yosef(leading rabbi in israel) has not, but I don't know for sure.

[rulllar]

I did not say they were Vegetarian based simply on Noah, I discussed vegetarianism in torah and mentioned them. Some may be for health reasons, others have explanations far more developed than my noah one, but it is still based on their understanding of what is explained to them by the torah.

In the health case - with many cancers and other degenerative diseases linked to meat, is it not again a case of "Shmiras Haguf" already but without the rabbis decreeing it so?

[vulcanmat613]

We do not answer halacha questions on our own - we have rabbis for that, and if they rule that smoking falls under "shmiras haguf" or "pikuach nefesh" as the RCA did, then we follow it. However you should know that rabbis give sources for their rulings - they're called "psak din".

[vulcanmat613]

We harmonize very well(those of us who follow rav A and rav B who have a different opinion on halacha) because we have far more similarities than differences, even between groups as philosophically different as litvaks(lithuanian) and chassidim. They may have valid differences of opinion, but none make up their own ideas - as it says in tamud, there are 70 paths to torah - all include not adding to or deleting torah. There's plenty to choose from as it is without adding..

[rulllar]

interesting. Well i'll ponder what you said and get back to you if i have something i'm still wondering over.