Goodness Without God is Good Enough: William Lane Craig vs Paul Kurtz 6/7

[grasuh]

Examples of objective morality:

it is universally considered good if there is a parent and a child that honestly loves each other. It is universally considered good if a couple stays faithful and loves each other. It is universally good if a teacher and a student genuinely respects each other.

[6thwing]

There is no resurrection for dolphins. They will all die. Christ didn't come for Dolphins. He came for Mankind. But only because mankind is RESPONSIBLE for themselves because they are in the image and likeness of God Himself.

[saintpine]

Craig says "If theism is true we have a sound foundation for morality"

Really, before Jesus came, the people that followed the Old testament where following the bible and gods word to the letter.

Was killing morally right before Jesus ?

Or is killing always morally wrong and the OT is just a fraud ?

The Nazi had moral justification from the OT and god order to kill the Jews, who can say this is false ?

[benthemiester]

@saintp U first have to recognize the difference between killing & murder. As in "thou shall not murder" (as in the original transcripts). As for comparing nazis, u also missed the point. Your actually making Craig's case more significant i.e. Who's sense of morality do we justify? To entertain the possibility of an infinitely wise & omnipotent God, yet at the same time try to judge his actions based on motives or reasoning that dosen't fit in a box conceived by a puny human mind, is illogical.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

I have no compulsory needs to mirror climb and justify all his misdeeds as indicated in your fairy book.

If your god wants to be taken into consideration, he needs to prove his existence doubt and justify his actions under my subjective morals standards. If he is unhappy that I don’t accept him anyway, he is free to apply his loving nature to break my knees to bend down before him and use me as fuel for his wonderful fire place.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine Why would an omnipotent God have to adhere to your own personel standards and be put in a narrow box and subject himself to your authority and approval? And why would He do it to an uninviting heart? He said he knocks at the door. He doesn't come in like a bulldozer or a cheesy Las Vegas magician. There wont be any need for anyones knees being broken. Maybe Hell is not what you think, and u end up in world that u thought you wanted but soon found u didn't which is a Godless world?

[saintpine]

@benthemiester "Why would an omnipotent God have to adhere to your own personel standards and be put in a narrow box and subject himself to your authority and approval?"

I'm not asking him to adhere to my standards; Its all an issue if I'm willing to adhere to HIS standards. eg. I will not willingly accept Hitler simply because he's a bully, has the power and can do whatever he wants.

Following him due to acceptance is one thing, following him due to threats, bulling and whatever is another.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine "If your god wants to be taken into consideration, he needs to prove his existence doubt and justify his actions under my subjective morals standards."

Those are your words above. How can you now say "I'm not asking him to adhere to my standards"?

I dont understand what the meaning of the Hitler reference is, and you havent explained how God has been bullying you so I cant comment on that part.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester "Those are your words above. How can you now say "I'm not asking him to adhere to my standards"?"

1.

Like I said if he wants me to adhere to his standards, he has quite a lot of explaining and justifications to do, because I cannot accept the Christian or the Islamic version of a god.

If he is unwilling to clarify, or he doesn't feel the need to justify anything, so be it.

But how can you say I’m asking him to adhere to my standards?

I need clarity, nothing else.

cont..

[benthemiester]

@saintpine "But how can you say I’m asking him to adhere to my standards?"

Because thats what you said. At least be consistant man. U bring up Hitler yet miss the most important point. This is an e.g. of what happens when men follow mans doctrine instead of God. The analogy is also poor because in spite of his Catholic pandering & slogans Hitler despised Christianity & his private statements & letters attest to this fact. Executing clergy who opposed him might have been a hint that was ignored.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester ""But how can you say I’m asking him to adhere to my standards?"

Because thats what you said. "

I really don't understand why it's so difficult for you to understand, I don't care what standards he has and wants to use for himself and his followers, if after clearing my doubts about his standards, I choose to not adhere, how the hell is this forcing him to adhere to mine?

He keeps his, I keep mine, he doesn't like it then he can behave like Hitler and force it onto me.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

4.

“The analogy is also poor because in spite of his Catholic pandering & slogans Hitler despised Christianity”

Nonsense, Hitler had issues with the rich and powerful churches that had control of the minds and will of 95% of the population. But anyway it has nothing to do with my comparison.

I’m looking at the dictatorship, brutality and totalitarianism aspect of Hitler, no different to gods behavior.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine Hitler did despise Christianity calling it an invention of the Jew and a scourge on mankind. You are very naive to believe that he was an actual Christian just because he used the churches for political gain. Agian he killed or sent any clergy who opposed him to concentration camps. The confessing church always opposed him and there members paid for it. The Gospels say God knocks at your door. He doesn't break it down or force you to accept him. You are wrong. You do have free choice.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester "Hitler did despise Christianity..."

The main issue was the power of the churches, the control it had over the people, whether he was a do it yourself Christian or an atheist in disguise is of no relevance to my comments.

Like I said, I'm comparing his behavior to that of a god, and like I said he was able to convince even good Christians to do evil by threats and force, no different to your god.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine You cant even define evil or morality objectively and you even say..... "morality is a human construct an illusion and god doesn't exist" You then try to judge God by the same supposedly illusory construct and premiss. You have to sit on his lap to spit in his face. Again demonstrating that God (needs to prove his existence doubt and justify his actions under your subjective morals standards.) You are inconsistent and your logic is self canceling and self contradicting.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

Whatever, you should by now understand what I mean, if I made a comment that is contradicting my view in a previous message you could point out the mistake instead of playing childish games.

Your attitude is one of a person that fears the brutal dictator and would never say anything that might piss him off.

There is no moral objectivity, it is a human construct.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine Pointing out your contradictions is not childish. If you cant even keep track of your own words or points just seconds after you have printed them, then dont blame me.

U said "he was able to convince even good Christians to do evil by threats and force, no different to your god"

yet earlier u said...."morality is a human construct an illusion and god doesn't exist"  So if evil or morality do not exist objectively then what is your point and how can you judge God by it?

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

“Pointing out your contradictions is not childish.”

I didn’t say it was childish, what I’m saying is you keep repeating that I want god to adhere to my subjective morality, I continuously telling you that this is not the case, and you say that I said so. Could you please clearly indicate to me where I said so and if you are correct, than I made a obvious mistake, it’s that simply, I’m not a god a can make mistakes.

Continue on B.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine I already pointed out 3 times and with quotation marks when u contradicted yourself about God having to prove himself to your moral standards. Which you still deny. I then pointed out & also with quotation marks when u said..... "morality is a human construct an illusion and god doesn't exist" "brutality and totalitarianism aspect of Hitler, no different to gods behavior" You say morality is illusory and use the same morality construct & try to judge God. This a logical fallacy.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

2.

"I already pointed out 3 times and with quotation marks when u contradicted yourself "

Enough!!

"You say morality is illusory and use the same morality construct & try to judge God. "

Let’s put it this way, how dare you judge me with morals coming from a Bronze Age fairy book.

You go go on with this non existing objective morality.

I'm using my own subjective morality, i have no objective justification for it, no different to you.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine "I'm using my own subjective morality, i have no objective justification for it, no different to you"

There is a big difference. Your sense of morality is as illusory as what a street magician does. This is your view of morality, not mine. They are not the same or even in the same ball park. According to this paradigm the fecal matter that your body excretes is objectively more substantial than your illusory construct of morality.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

“According to this paradigm the fecal matter that your body excretes is objectively more substantial than your illusory construct of morality.”

You can go on using all your wonderful poetic talent, facts are that you have absolutely no evidence of an objective morality, and your fairy tale paints your god as one of the worst characters that has ever appeared in fiction. how dare you even suggest that be source of any morals.

I’m going to sleep, it's 3am, had enough of your crap.

[benthemiester]

@saintpine I thought you understood that quotation marks are meant for directly quoting someone. All I did was copy and paste your own quotation, and if you cannot recognize something you wrote yourself, and did so very recently, then you may have short term memory loss.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

where in my message you quoted did I suggest that Mr God should adhere to my moral standards?

I am simply critisizing and not accepting his standards, I have no authority to convince him to adhere to my moral standards. After all I follow the standards that my comunity has layed down, I don't accept everything, the law assures that I keep in the boundaries by applying various threats (fine and jail).

[benthemiester]

@saintpine "where in my message you quoted did I suggest that Mr God should adhere to my moral standards"

For the fourth time.........

"If your god wants to be taken into consideration, he needs to prove his existence doubt and justify his actions under my subjective morals standards"  Are you know denying that you wrote this?

[saintpine]

@benthemiester "For the fourth time........."

Wow!! lets try again.

I don’t accept the existence of objective morality.

Many subjective moral standards can live side by side in some sort of agreement.

I don’t go around asking normal people to adhere to my standards, how the hell do you think I’m asking a powerful despotic bully to do it?

It's your god that wants me to accept his standards, I need to understand them to see if I can accept them in accordance to MY SUBJECTIVE moral standards.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

B.

"So if evil or morality do not exist objectively then what is your point and how can you judge God by it?"

I judge on my subjective moral values, I didn’t I was a superior been, I don’t care if it’s not in accordance to His views I don't believe in the existance of objective morality.

If your god orders every first born to be killed, I will not behave like a sheep and accept it as morally OK, you wouldn't even question him. I would and I would pay the consequences.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester "makes no sense."

Morality as an objective standard is an illusion.

Everyone has different morals and ideas on every issue, there are many agreements, but it’s impossible to have an objective morality.

Does god promote objective morality because it’s good or is it moral whatever god defines as moral?

In the first case god has nothing to do with objective morality, in the second case by definition it’s not objective because he could change his mind. and decide you kill you child.

[saintpine]

@benthemiester

2.

“I dont understand what the meaning of the Hitler reference is”

Hitler is an example of a dictator that got even good Christians to do evil, not all accepted his orders, but many had death threats for themselves and their family over their heads and were forced to do whatever he ordered.

The god of the bible and the Koran is a totalitarian dictator that uses threats to obtain his goal.

You can accept because you might agree, love him or fear him, but you don't have a choice.

[wild112233]

Haha, Craig said that Kurtz has not proved that without god, humans would be good.

Now how is one supposed to prove that? If Kurtz shows atheists who are good & moral, Craig can reply that moral atheists are moral because god made them so (even if they do not believe in god).

One argument that can be made is that animals do not have a god for their species. For example, is there a dolphin god? No, but dolphins protect each other and care for each other and sacrifice for each other.

[chriswnorris7]

I think you've misunderstood Craig. Craig is arguing that without God, we have no OBJECTIVE basis for morality. He is explaining that without God, the appearance of "good" and "bad" are really just delusions that we developed in order to aid us in evolution. Craig is demanding that Kurtz give him a source for objective moral values if God doesnt exist. Kurtz could show Craig an atheist who he believes to be "good", but that would not prove that objective morals exist.

[wild112233]

I think you may have misunderstood me :-) I know what Craig is demanding, and it is something that cannot be proved.

1. Google for "morality in animals", and you will find enough research material to show that even animals have morality.

Now, is there a dolphin god that makes dolphins moral? And a chimp god who makes chimps moral?

2. How does Craig know that god makes people moral? He needs to prove his assertion - instead of saying, "I don't know why people are moral, thus god did it".

[wild112233]

By the way, regarding look up Frans de Waal " non-human great apes and humans are simply different types of apes, and that empathic and cooperative tendencies are continuous between these species". He is the most prominent researcher in this field.

And if you are still very interested in the objective source of morality, look at the debate between Yale Professor of Philosophy Shelly Kagan and WL Craig.

SK busts WLC and also talks about the objective source of morality.

[collins1188]

"Now is there a dolphin god that makes dolphins moral"

Dolphins aren't moral; they behave in a manner that advances the species through the evolutionary process. This is exactly what Craig is saying when he says morality in humans does not exist if God does not exist just like morality for dolphins doesn't exist because dolphin-god doesn't exist.

[wild112233]

Dolphins will stay with injured or ill individuals, even helping them to breathe by bringing them to the surface if needed.This altruism does not appear to be limited to their own species however. The dolphin Moko in New Zealand has been observed guiding a female Pygmy Sperm Whale together with her calf out of shallow water where they had stranded several times. ...(continued)

[wild112233]

...(from previous)...They have also been seen protecting swimmers from sharks by swimming circles around the swimmers or charging the sharks to make them go away.

Copied from Wikipedia, which lists the sources for all these statements. (Section: Social behavior, line 6)

If this is not morality, then you have no idea of what morality is.

So, as I said, dolphins are moral too. Without a dolphin god.

[collins1188]

"Haha, Craig said that Kurtz has not proved that without god, humans would be good. Now how is one supposed to prove that?"

That's the point. If someone makes an assertion, and can disprove any and all contrary assertions, then one has effectively proven that assertion by process of elimination. This is a valid proof in mathematics and applies to this debate.

Craig has won the debate. He, in fact, is absolutely right. Without God, morality is simply a human construct... an illusion.

[saintpine]

@collins1188 "Craig has won the debate. He, in fact, is absolutely right. Without God, morality is simply a human construct... an illusion."

Exactly, morality is different all over the world, in place and time. no one has access to gods moral rules, maybe this is a hint that morality is a human construct an illusion and god doesn't exist.

[Lightmane321]

In the last video, Kurtz looked pretty nervous. He started attacking Craig's religious beliefs with lame old arguments which clearly showed that he wasn't comfortable with his position. Craig basically had destroyed all of his arguments and it showed.

[meangreen4321]

@Lightmane321

IMO, Craig changed the focus of the original topic "Goodness without God is Good Enough" to a philosophical question of the objective basis for moral decisions. This was a clever tactic that threw Kurtz offguard, who essentially argued for a practical morality, relative only to the standards of evolved civilization.

[Lightmane321]

@meangreen4321 Even if Craig did that, I still think he's right. The title of the debate is refuted by Craig and only addressed within the framework of our lifetime, according to Kurtz, which is fine, but as Craig points out, it's ultimately meaningless how 'good' we were while we lived, (if there is no God).

Temporary meaning, purpose etc...

In other words... subjective morality & ethics, which is fine, if God doesn't exist, but it's still ultimately meaningless

[veritaslogos]

Kurtz totally misses the point,and Craig poitns that out pretty well for the most part.