I'm afraid everyone knows about the evolution of alphabets, this has nothing to do with 'reformed' egyptian in america from gold plates... Don't think you've 'proved' anything at all you're going off the history of language and writing that's it. here is a letter you might want to read and if you can translate these mormon reformed egyptian texts and show us how you did it using it then i'll see some 'proof'. Anyway been watching your other vids too and i must say thanks for the laugh.
@pabobfin He left out Sumerian and Cuneiform both of which must be reformed Egyptian. I'm still coming to terms with Mormon leaving SA, and Cumorah, walking 1000's of miles with heavy gold plates, thru many barbaric tribes, (Joe had to run home with those plates) then in NY, plant gold plates in a drumlin and say nothing about that. And why are the names of towns in BofM found in New England and not SA?. Also, I thought the book was buried where the BofM says: Where it happened
Thanks for clearing it up for me. Every alphabet on Earth is REFORMED EGYPTIAN. No wonder joe could easily decipher it. Thanks for this comedic presentation. Scary part is... there are people that believe this nonsense just like they believe in mormonism. I guess it's true that there is one born every day. Keep up the vids... I love a good laugh..
Anything for you my dear. I notice you don't touch any of the evidence or proof, you just try to make it seem absurd. Thanks for demonstrating it is beyond your ability to refute. That is, oddly enough, quite reassuring to the rest of us.
@Thebackyardfreemason The fact that you are reaching SOO far demonstrates your inability to reason. Rationalization is not proof. Well...Maybe in a cult it is..
WHY do you limit it to the New World? The Book of Mormon originated in the OLD WORLD, and there are samples of this script there. There is no reason to find it in the New World, the record was not available to the public, but kept by a lineage group.
@RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS Do you know of Hover Dam? Saying Mormons help the poor is like saying Hover Dam supplies water. I have talked to people on the ground diruing Katrina relief and in Haiti and they say the Mormon effort amounted to a gesture -- if that.
Secular Non-profits do the bulk of the work. Good people give.
This is another reason to leave your so-called "church". If you give because the bible tells you to instead of what your heart tells you to, you have been corrupted.
If someone defends a lie, they bear false witness.
It is incontrovertible and demonstrative that Joseph Smith could not translate Egyptian.
Mormon apologist who defend The Book of Abraham do not disagree that Joseph Smith could not translate Egyptian nor do they offer proof that he could translate Egyptian.
Alright, since you brought it up: You say that the church uses tithing to build campuses, temples, and churches. They also spend money to help people; I will not discount this. While this is true, your church never releases full records of its financial activity. Their activity becomes even more dubious when you begin looking at the few numbers that we have to work with.
At providentliving(dot)org, a site run by the LDS church, you will find a link to a Welfare Services Fact Sheet on the main page. There, you will notice that the church has given $1.16 billion dollars (this includes all their material donations as well, which account for the bulk of the above amount) to humanitarian aid since 1985. This amount might seem like a lot, and it is certainly more money than I will probably ever make in my lifetime.
Even so, the church is more than twice the money that it has used to help people in over two decades on one mall in Utah; namely, the $3 billion dollar City Creek Center. They are building a $30 million dollar luxury hotel near BYU Hawaii; they just bought the KJZZ building in Utah for $6.6 million dollars.
They recently released the amount of aid given to Haiti, where over a hundred thousand people died: $4.25 million.
Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon, Chapter 8 verse 37:
For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than
ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
If it were only churches they were building it is still condemned by their own doctrine; but to make matters worse, they are also building secular malls and hotels. Honestly, would Jesus build a mall that sells the kind of clothes young people are wearing today?
When the money from new converts end (because there are fewer new converts) they need to find a different source of income. Scientology does this too with legit looking business classes.
First off, no tithing dollars are being used for the City Creek Center. This Downtown revitalization project is being funded by Property Reserve which is the LDS church's commercial real-estate arm. This company functions like the LDS Foundation which gets its money from the profits from church associated companies like Bonneville Communications and Beneficial Life as well as dividends and interest from other investments.
Many donations are made to local charities by the LDS Foundation in addition to the Corporation of the First Presidency or Cooperation of the Presiding Bishopric which run the church's welfare and humanitarian aid programs.
The church invests its tithing money very conservatively. However, invested money earns interest. So, to maintain the church's tax-exempt status, subsidiaries like the LDS Foundation use those earnings to give to support local soup kitchens, women's shelters, and even in several instances has contributed to repair fire-damaged or time-worn churches of other denominations in the Salt Lake City area.
@athono Yes the LDS church was one of the first to send over plane loads of food, water, medical. I've worked in the Humanitarian center, making first aid packs, packs for school kids to have pencils, books, etc., & have seen it from that angle. What have you done to help ease the suffering in Haiti? Have you donated your time & $ to help? The church is not perfect, but it still helps a lot of people around the world with the funds donated to it. Not bad for a church that is charged satanists!
@RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS show me. Any news sites? Forgive me if I doubt you but this is the first I have heard of such things and does not fit the mold of a church interested in "missions" to convert rather than assist.
@athono On the Tithing & Other Offerings print out, member volunteer to put as much money as they choose to do, never by force, into the following lists: Tithing, Fast Offerings (which is intended to help assist the poor & needy). Ward missionary; General missionary; Book of Mormon (production & distribution). HUMANITARIAN AID; Temple construction; Perpetual education; Other (specify).
ath. Google: LDS Humanitarian aid. I've also witnessed 1st hand & taken part in & have pictures of clean up projects that LDS did in California floods 1982, & worked at Humanitarian centers making first aid kits, & school supply bags, furniture & received food & help when needed, working at different places for free. I testify, then as an eye witness, that LDS church is attempting to do good, despite the weak members who don't live the gospel as they know they should.
@at. I read em, but you're misrepresenting LDS, with comment "a bishop to demand that they give" it paints a false negative picture of LDS. Like saying: "You still beat your wife!" It's not "alleged" it's a comment that states verdicts of guilt with no cases heard. There's no tyrannical dictatorship of bishops pounding pulpits demanding $! It's voluntary, as is working at LDS humanitarian centers; unless your employed there, or required by courts to do community service.
The City Creek Center and other downtown revitalization projects are a great service to Salt Lake City. Crossroads mall was not built to any kind of seismic code. The entire mall and parking structure would have collapsed in even a moderate earthquake. Salt Lake couldn't find any investors or developers who were willing to touch this project with a 10-foot pole. So, the city does what it always does when it gets into a financial pinch and turns to the LDS church
Tithing is Gods money and is used specifically for building the Kingdom of God and is not to be "double-counted" as providing for the poor. Tithing is used to build temples and churches worldwide and maintain buildings and church programs. For this precise reason, the LDS church collects a fast offering, in addition to tithing, which is used to fund local, church-wide welfare and worldwide humanitarian aid programs.
Again, you cannot make any claims that no tithing was used for the building of such structures because the church won't release their financial activity. They simply say that they aren't using any, and members are forced to take the leaders' word for it; asking for evidence would be seen as lacking in faith. Until the LDS church begins to let its members see how their money is being spent like many other churches do, there is 0 trust from those who do not believe the words of the LDS prophets.
And even if they are doing the state of Utah a favor by building a $3 billion mall (in a recession, and in a time when people are starting to turn to online shopping and not going to malls as much), not even half of the Mormons in the world live in Utah. How is a tithe-paying member in Korea going to be helped by a worldly mall being built in Utah? (Answer: He isn't.) Really, who is that mall helping other than some people in Utah? And it is really *helping* them?
The church does invest tithing. It invests it into these *real estate arms of the church* that are basically corporations. Accordingly, when these arms spend money, it is not the church directly spending the money, and thus the church can get away with saying that they *aren't using any tithing on these projects.* I just do not think a church supposedly led by the fabled Jesus Christ would be spending more on world real estate than he would on helping people.
According to you,it would be seen as lacking faith.
There is shown evidence of how they have spent it. Just look at the temples that dot the world, the humanitarian aid, all the Elders serving missions faithfully, etc. Those who are in tune with the Spirit can discern not only the temporal but spiritual rewards that come from donating their time, money, and talents to the building up of God's kingdom.
I guess we will have to wait to see the kind of stores that are going to be put into the mall, as well as the kind of clothing and other products they sell. It has already been confirmed that alcohol and other *sinful* beverages will be sold at restaurants there. It is just like the church receiving tithing from Marriott hotels, which have a wide selection of pornography to choose from. You'd think the church would refuse to take part in things that go against their doctrine, but alas.
Until they are sued like Scientilogy has been sued for fraud in several European countries. Don't laugh. It could happen. If Brazil or Japan resort to considering the church to be a damaging influence on their society, they have a case.
@athono The church helps all types of people around the world & its members. They have "bishop store houses," that people go to get help, or to do word to help others with food, clothing, jobs hunts, etc. It's done out of love & according to what Christ taught, Matthew 25. The church teaches & helps people become self reliant, but if your in need, they help, & not just LDS people only, they help people all over. I seen the programs in action! I testify & have seen & taken part in these things.
@athono Don't need Mormonism to help the poor & needy? Yea, but without it, there'd me more poor & needy, cause I don't see communist Atheists helping the poor & needy.
Methodists feed more of the poor and build homes for the homeless. And There are just as many Methodists as Mormons.
But, apart from that, without Mormonism, Mormons themselves would have more to give to the Red Cross and other secular charities. And more of their funds would reach those in need.
Also, what are you talking about communists and athiests? Shall I consider you to be a representative of your level-headed group?
@athono A lot of Christians do help the poor, as do Mormons. Wouldn't it be nice if we all helped each other to help others, rather than put down others? LDS are annoyed at always being called, by other Christians, (who use the same types of Atheistic communistic anti-religious tactics to vilify others with); they're annoyed at being called satanists, a cult, & evil, while they're doing as much good as they can, despite not being perfect too, as our Christian brothers aren't. That's what I mean
@athono If you want to know about the church, going to anti-Mormon videos isn't going to give you a fair picture of what LDS belief, any more than reading only early anti-Christian writings is with Christ & early Christianity. Talk to the LDS themselves, not sources claimed to be LDS, but filtered to you from biased antis that distort things, lie, sensationalize & use Atheistic early anti-Christian type tactics to vilify LDS with.
Still, if it is not correct, it should not be spread. In secular schools, the Mormon version is history is not allowed to be taught just as the Muslim view of creation and the universe because they are not true. Filling kids heads with non-science helps keep our education one of the lowest on earth. If it is a lie, it is poison.
Talk of "anti" this and that only tells me you believe in conspiracies and boogie men.
The only anti-mormons are the ones who keep mormon brothers in the dark.
7th.: When I read your comments about having been a former LDS missionary, I later read in the Book of Mormon, today: "And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, & have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, & then have fallen away into sin & transgression, they become more hardened, & thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things." Alma 24:30. (I'm NOT saying your a sinner with this).
Good, because I do not consider myself a sinner, even by LDS standards. I am happily married, still do not drink coffee or alcohol (never having drank the stuff before, it just doesn't appeal to me), and it isn't like I steal, kill, or rape people, so I do not know what I would receive court fines or be unhappy. I have never even gotten a speeding ticket in my life, nor had a broken bone or even a single stitch. Why would I be unhappy??
(And before you respond: Something I hear a lot is, *If you are commenting on YouTube videos, how could you possibly be happy?! I feel so bad for you!* What they don't realize is that they are doing the same thing by writing such comments to me, not to mention the fact that they don't realize that I personally find it fun to point out truths or leaps in logic in someone's argument when I notice them.)
I say this a lot online and I will say it again here: Mormonism does not have a monopoly on happiness or good lives. You can be completely happy and live a wonderful life outside of the church. (Oops!! The church leaders didn't want you to know that!!)
You are absolutely right; we can't leave it alone. If one day you came to the realization that everything that you had been taught since your birth wasn't true, wouldn't you try to tell those around you? I remember when I first found out that Santa wasn't real back in elementary school; kids who had found out the truth told everyone, and it was a big letdown. I didn't want to believe it at first. Of course, my parents didn't want the magic to end so early either, so when I approached them (cont)
(cont), they told me they didn't know what I was talking about, and that I had to believe in Santa for him to come. This is what the church is doing, but in order to believe in their present-giving entity (Jesus) you have to pay 10% of your money to the church. In doing so, you move away from the harmless world of make-believe child's play and you enter into the realm of a multi-billion dollar international fraud. This gives people like myself all the more reason to spread the word.
Well guess what, I guess the Jews in the OT were duped too, seeing as how the law of the tithe applies to them as well. And what do the tithes go to? Church buildings, campuses, and temples of the Lord where people can be sealed for eternity to their families.
I am sorry that you are missing out on such an immense blessing. I have seen what the world has to offer, and I am all set. I've heard just about all of the supposed arguments even as an investigator as well as a convert. (contd)
Yes, the Jews were also duped. Anyone in the history of the world who has paid money to another human being in order to receive blessings from a deity was duped. as well, for that matter. I never said that other churches who implemented the law of tithing now or in the past are correct. To me, all religions are nothing more than massive fraudulent organizations.
7th.: Santa Claus became real to me again, once I learned that he's a later legendized mythical story, that goes back into the early Christian beliefs, that Christ went to other nations around the world.
That's the reality of Santa Claus, once his mask, the mask of legends, are removed to reveal the wandering roaming world wide Son of God, Jesus Christ; known by different names around the world, according to their languages & arts.
You Tube: Justin Martyr Jr's series: Christ As Cosmic Cruiser
@TheBackyardProfessor I have to agree with him, Kerry. Many people have lived exemplar lives without Mormonism. There were a lot of people teaching the Law of Cause and Effect outside Mormonism. Unfortunately, the disciples always corrupt the teachings of a particular master.
7h.: I agree! Some people don't realize that LDS, like early Christians, believe that they don't have a monopoly on God's word too! He speaks to who ever he wants, in what ever nations, times & to whoever he wants. He's judge, I'm not. I'm not interested in trying to change you, I'm interested in trying to change myself in a better man. "It's not my job to change everyone I can. It's my job to change myself into a better man." (Covert Cosmic Cruisers' lyrics to: How to Change the World, 2010).
7th.: Your right, LDS don't have a monopoly on happiness or good lives. For gospel pre-dates 1830s, & even Christ. God spoke to prophets around world, angels went forth too into all times & places all over. That early Christian belief restored in LDS faith, thus suggest that LDS don't have a monopoly on happiness or good lives, that many people around world & in spirit realms too, were given many chances to repent & live good lives. 2 Nephi 26:33; 29:7-14; Mosiah 3:13, 20; 13:33-35; 15:28-31.
Read: Abram Setsuzau, The Origin & Evolution of the Semitic Alphabets, Japan: Kyo Bun Kwan, 1937; William R Corliss 1978 Ancient Man: A Handbook of Puzzling Artifacts; By Study & Also By Faith, 2:273-334; Bezalel Porten, The Elephantine Papyri In English, 3 Millennia of Cross-Cultural Continuity & Change, NY: Koln: Brill 1996; Dictionnnarie Hieroglyphique Ed Demotique, Henri Brugsch; William Hamblin, Reformed Egyptian, Maxwill Institute; Google Reformed Egyptian, demotic, etc.
We've 1000s of artifacts, art works, writings, earlier bibles from all over historic Christianity that: Christ's & human family pre-existed. Christ, prophets & apostles preach gospel in hell; went to other nations. Baptized for dead; did temple type mysteries. Taught deification = becoming gods! That early anti-Christians argued against them like modern antis. If Christians don't believe restoration, why don't they at least believe in these earlier doctrines later legendized during Apostasy?
7th.: Sad you've rejected your earlier testimony, to becoming "born again"? An Atheist? Agnostic? Some other faith? What you say is lacking in Book of Mormon archaeology, is not in what we see in early Christianity. Evidences for Christ's world trek; Christ preaching gospel to spirit world; baptism for dead; hand & wrist grasping early Christian mysteries, etc.. Early Christian apologists' use of doctrines now restored to answer same modern antis' issues! I testify restoration & BOM are true!
I did not switch from one system of beliefs to another; I just simply do not believe in anything because we humans simply do not know (perhaps this falls under the category of *agnostic*). I do not deny the existence of a greater power, but I do not affirm it either. However, if such an entity does exist, I highly doubt that it is the vengeful, loving, jealous, merciful, just, etc etc God that we read about in the Bible or any other set of man-made holy writ.
@7he7ruthHurts: Suggest you read Howard Storm's Near Death Experience. He was a former Atheist before his NDE. There're eye witnesses to God's existence, love & world treks. We can accept or reject them because it's our choice. I choose to believe, but not without much study, prayer, & most importantly, living correct principles & concepts of scriptures. I've already tried other way & found out hard way, problems that come from not living a good life, such as court fines, unhappiness, etc, etc.
@7he7ruthHurts I agree with you that people "just don't know," when it comes to the truths of the universe and God. This is why I feel that personal revelation is so important. Without God's lights, no-one can really know anything about anything. The only knowlege that will ever make a differnence or have a true lasting effect will never come from man, it can only be obtained from God. As soon as we take God out of our believes, we are truly left with nothing but uncertainty and doubt.
7th.: I didn't say "every," for I include rare cases: Prof. Cyrus H Gordon, Brandeis Un. & Barry Fell, both note Egyptian & Jewish traces in Americas, in artifacts & some scripts. Ensign, 10-1971, Dr. Gordon; Before Columbus, 71; Fell, America BC, 76. However, LDS scholars note Fell's work has series errors too. Bell's letters from National Decipherment Center, 1980s "translates" script from Mark Hoffman's forged version of Anthon Transcript! DT, English, Is it Reformed, "Deformed" Egyptian?
*Every* as in the scholars who aren't LDS and who don't believe in Lehite reformed Egyptian; you will find this to be almost *every* scholar that is not Mormon out there. Again, it is not because these people have a bias; as a linguist myself I think it would be awesome to discover a new lost language that was used throughout the Americas. Unfortunately, the only writing we have from the immense Nephite and Lamanite civilizations is the Anthon transcript.
@7h.: Read BOM? Looking for evidences? Know what's been found thus far? Or, already made up your mind "there's none"? So who is the "we" who "have" only "the Anthon transcript?" LDS scholars? Or is it non-LDS scholars? I bring up about "every" scholar point, & to clarify here: Critics often say that in order for BOM to be true, non-LDS scholars have to find evidences for it & thus be academically convinced. They're not making it a point to even look, so who'd qualify to present evidences found?
Has there been anything found in the Americas that scholars have identified as Lehite *reformed Egyptian?* No, other than the Anthon transcript that Joseph wrote. Does Michael Coe up at Yale not count as a scholar who has worked extensively with Mormons on this issue? He is not an anti-Mormon or apostate; however, he very honestly admits that there hasn't been anything found that convincingly supports what is recorded in the Book of Mormon in the Americas.
I do not require that someone be non-LDS to present valid information. However, when LDS scholars are trying to say that horse = tapir and make all other sorts of leaps in logic (even if Joseph didn't know what a tapir was, God, who was supposedly giving him the power to translate the plates, did, so there is no excuse for such vague translations), that is where you lose me (and the rest of the world of logically thinking people).
7th.: You still didn't answer my other questions? Have you read the BOM? Etc. Michael Coe, of course,doesn't accept the BOM, & even though his research contains evidences, he wouldn't dare declare that they are BOM evidences. Just like the Smithsonian Inst., they have their letters for the BOM & Bible that Dian E. Wirth answers in A Challenge to the Critics. Smithsonian Instu. members aren't going to admit that some of the research done throughout the years, artifacts found, etc., are evidences!
So what type of language would qualify for "reformed Egyptian," that consists of 600 BC old Hebrew, written in an Egyptian script? Which would continue to be altered & changed according to their manner of speech? (1 Nephi 1:2; Mosiah 1:4; Mormon 9:32-33). What non-LDS scholar is going to seek, find & claim they've found a script that academically convinced them that finally, there's at least one shred of evidence?
Again, the *evidences* that have been found are hardly convincing. It is not like people do not want to believe in such a grand civilization; it is just that the almost complete and utter lack of evidence for the BoM civilizations of millions of people who supposedly covered the Americas for nearly a millennium tells any logically thinking person: This probably isn't true.
And to answer your question: Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover many times, and in more than one language. I have gone out and proselytized in the streets and gone door to door for two years trying to get people to believe in it. It wasn't later that I really began reading into the past doctrine and teaching of the church and its leaders, and came upon differing opinions, that I began to question the validity of the book.
For example, on my mission we had to memorize Joseph Smith's first vision in the MTC as though it were fact. I cannot tell you how many times I recited that in front of investigators. Unfortunately, I was unaware that there are about 10 different versions of that same vision, and the one I had memorized wasn't even the first of such. By they didn't tell us that at the time!
This is likely what the Russel M. Nelson meant when he said: *Indeed, in some instances, the merciful companion to truth is silence. Some truths are best left unsaid.* Or Boyd K. Packer when he said: *Some things that are true are not very useful.*
You've got to be willing to seek. Many critics claim that "there's no evidences," perhaps because they're not even looking. LDS seekers that do find evidences & present them are ignored, or vilified so that critics' myth & creed of "there's no evidences" can be sold.
My sources are why I believe, not why others have to. I testify, praying that this is spirit felt, as to what I've seen, researched, looked for & found in my studies: That reformed Egyptian is real & BOM is true! In Christ name.
Phoenicians "took the hieratic script of ancient Egypt & transformed & modified it into a form suited to Semitic languages. From this point the Phoenician alphabet was still further
modified by the Greeks, who inserted vowels & made other changes. The role of the Phoenicians in the evolution of writing from the ancient pictograms to the forms practiced today cannot therefore be over emphasized." Claiborne, The Birth of Writing,118-120; Voices In Stone, Doblhofer, 220-226.
Votive Tablet of King Tanyidamani with Meroitic script, more evidence for Reformed Egyptian! 651 BC Meroitic, is recognized to be a modified form of Egyptian script that matches up with Anthon Transcript & demotic texts. Phoenician city of Byblos' script are written on stone & bronze objects, found in 1920's, & contain 114 different symbols, nearly half of which are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs." (The Last 2 Million Years, 303, Voices In Stone, Doblhofer, 220-226.
What language "consists of the learning of the Jews & the language of the Egyptians"? 2 Ne. 1:2, in Jerusalem areas, 600 BC? Lachish Letters do, there's enough of them from same era & area! Christians use them as biblical archeological evidences, thus bible evidences crosses over into Book of Mormon evidences! Meroitic script on a stone plate in the Nubian Museum of Asswan Egypt> Plus, in temple of Amon 1st cent BC-1st cent AD, Hypostyle Hall- Meroitic texts are more large samples of evidences!
For all the research anti-LDS claim to do in LDS history, it's ironic that they continue to ignore greater parallels shown them, like those which Ariel Crowley did 1940-60s. If characters been occult symbols, critics would have announced "shocking parallels!" But because they show many evidences for BOM, they down play them! Robert McKay, after shown: "I am more convinced than ever that such a language has never existed." The Evangel, vol.39, 9-1992, #6, p.7, "No Proof of "Reformed Egyptian"
If any of that is the case, why haven't we seen any other example anywhere in the world of the characters that Smith copied from the plates themselves?
Why does it appear that they exist nowhere outside of Mormonism?
mopar.: They do exist, they're in non-LDS publications on Lachish Letters; on Demotic Egyptian; on tracing English back to mother language, demotic Egyptian type scripts. Google image demotic Egyptian, compare it with Anthon Transcript. See sources I've posted here. There's plenty of evidence & samples of scripts! You just have to take the time to explore & research yourself. If you can't find it, you're not looking for it. If you seek, you'll find, if you knock, it will be opened unto you.
Just for fun, I took your advice. If you maintain that the two are the same, your standard of proof is much, much lower than mine since they look nothing laike whatsoever.
What you also meant to say is that I should have a suspension of disbelief when it comes to Mormonism, the kind I watch Star Wars with. Sorry, but God gave me common sense for a reason.
Rongorongo (Easter Island)..yet very little of it exists too. So does that mean because only a small fragment of it exists that it really isn't a language? It doesn't appear anywhere else outside of Easter Isle..so does that make it a false language?
Crowley's articles -- you're showing the second in the series of 4, inc one in 1944 -- show that the characters Jos. Smith copied are demotic, which was a simplified form of hieratic, which in turn was simplified Egyptian hieroglyphs. Look up "demotic" in a dictionary and you'll see it's defined as "simplified" --> "reformed" Egyptian in BoM. Demotic came into use 700-600 BC, just before Lehi left Jerusalem. No surprise his descendants would continue to refer to it as the "reformed" Egyptian.
Lachish Letters, date back to Lehi's 6th century times, & they have characters on them that also match up with demotic type writing & Anthon Transcript. Again, more book of Mormon evidence that's not suppose to exist! Digging Up the Bible, Moshe Pearlmann, 1980, William Morrow & Co. NY, p102-3; Ancient America & The Book of Mormon, Milton R. Hunter, &
Thomas Stuart Ferguson, 1950, 4th printing 1957. Kolob Bk. Co., Oakland, Calif., p.61, Fig. 8; Illustrated Bible Dictionary, p.1669-70.
Israelites, 600-598 BC, used a form of writing that had Egyptian influences "...in the royal administration of both Judah & Israel (Samaria), hieratic numerals were used, striking new evidence for the influence of Egyptian prototypes in the Israelite administration." Biblical Archaeologist, vol.31, Feb. 1968, #1, p.12-15, fig.9 & 10, n.5, p.15,
Basor No.184, (Dec., 1966), p.13-19, The American Schools of Oriental Research, Jer. & Bagdad; History Was Buried, Margaret Wheeler, 1967, p. 247-258.
DT, English! Is It 'Deformed' Reformed Egyptian?, (Salt Lake City, Utah, R.H.& P.S., 1993, 1999); Ariel L. Crowley, The Improvement Era, Vol.45 #1, Jan. 1942, p.14-15, 58-61; Feb. 1942, p.76-80, 124-5; Vol.45, #3, March 1942, p.150-1, 182-3; Vol.47, 9, Sept. 1944, p.542-3, 576-83. Vol. 55, #9, Sept. 1952, p. 644-645, The Anthon Transcript & the Maya Glyphs, Ariel L. Crowley. About The Book of Mormon, 1961, Deseret News Press, p.5-59.
Yes, one of Heavenly Father's angel helpers took the gold plates back to heaven but, oddly, after the papyri were translated by the Prophet into the Book of Abraham, they were left here on earth.
And StorminMormin91 is right in that even having those original papyri here on earth sure wouldn't convert anyone. And they haven't.
I would type this in Japanese to avoid the irony of using *reformed Egyptian,* but I do not think you would understand, so allow me to play into your game. Although the English language may have come from the evolution of Egyptian characters over time, this is in no way evidence for the existence of the version of *reformed Egyptian* that Joseph claimed to have translated from.
It is also silly to make the claim that because the characters Joseph scribbled down *have been found in actual texts* that they must be evidence of Lehis *reformed Egyptian.* Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. I wont even use Egyptian; I will use Japanese to make a point! At 4:00 in the video, characters that could be easily identified as Japanese appear:
The last two phonetic characters *ku* and *he* are actually Chinese in origin (久=く) (部=へ), so in your sense of the word, they are *reformed Chinese.* Accordingly, Joseph could have just as easily made the argument that he was working with a text in *reformed Chinese.* Let me give you another obvious example. Check out 5:58, and you will notice characters that look Japanese again:
Again, the sound *chi* is Chinese in origin (知=ち), so Joseph could just as easily have used the same character to claim that he worked with a *reformed Chinese* text. Without the actual golden plates, such speculation is pointless. You can say all the names you want and surround yourself with books in these videos, but it doesnt make the LDS church any truer. Thanks for hearing me out in *reformed Egyptian!*
7he7lieHurts: Even Japanese & Chinese writing scripts have been reformed, changed & altered in time: Oracle bone jiaguwen - greater seal dazhuan - lesser seal xiaozhuan - clerkly script lishu - standard script kaishu - running script xingshu - CURSIVE SCRIPT caoshu - MODERN SIMPLIFIED jiantizi (Orbit Chinese, Chinese Symbols Evolution). If Chinese can pass through "evolution" changes, why can't Egyptian? To compare Joseph Smith's "scribbles" to other languages not claimed is like symbols.
Umm did you even read my comments? I said that the the language did pass through changes. It was my point that languages pass through changes. The evolution of the Japanese syllabary of katakana and hiragana are nothing more than simplified Chinese characters. I was pointing out the fact that the language that Joseph claimed to translate from (Lehite *reformed Egyptian*) has not been found anywhere.
By simply saying *all the characters that Joseph wrote down in the Anthon transcript have been found in and around Egypt,* you are not proving that such a language existed. As I demonstrated above, the characters can also be found in the Japanese language as well. Pulling many characters from many different sources over many different time periods to support such a claim is ridiculous; you need a single source that used a majority of the characters found in the transcript.
And just for the record, critics are not saying that Egyptian has not been reformed or changed; they are saying that the reformed Egyptian which Joseph Smith claimed that Lehi and his family wrote in doesn't exist. You are distorting their words to shore up your argument, but you are missing the point of their criticisms (or perhaps purposefully dodging them).
The MicMac Indian language qualifies. THe point the evidence proves is that the script exists. If each character has an analogy in the Ancient Near East, where the BofM came from, it is far and away stronger than one or two items you find in Japanese.
No, you do not show that all the characters in the Anthon transcript can be found in a single work from a single region during a single era. You have taken various texts from various times/places to show that Joseph's fictive language existed, whereas I did the same thing with the Japanese language just as an example. I could find many more parallels if you would like; my point is that without the plates, it is all speculation. You cannot prove or disprove that which doesn't exist. :-/
Yes I absolutely do. The language is NOT fictive, it is EGYPTIAN. The "reformed" part of it has to do with the CHARACTERS. The scripts have changed as I have absolutely proven. The language is REAL, it is EGYPTIAN. Do you need me to prove Egyptian existed for you too?
Are the writings on the Anthon transcript just characters by themselves, or are they arranged syntactically to create a sentence? Has anyone ever attempted translating the Anthon transcript?
Again, do you have evidence that those characters have all been used during the same era in the same region by the same people? It looks to me like Joseph just took a bunch of random symbols and wrote them onto a piece of paper; it's no wonder they appear in various texts around the world.
I could make up a bunch of symbols myself and then go find characters that look like them in the texts of a certain region; context is what is important.
Anyway, I am only try to say that I think you are a little overconfident in your assessment that you have *proven* Joseph's reformed Egyptian to exist. Most of the evidence in this video only says that Egyptian influenced the Roman alphabet, and not that Lehi's language was real.
@7he7ruthHurts.: A. We have offered evidences that you still claim is lacking. I don't care if your convinced or not, because these sources, & others, after years of research, is the sum of why I personally believe & testify that reformed Egyptian types of scripts exist! Blend of languages, where underlining script is Demotic types of Egyptian characters used by those speaking other languages. Cases: Lachish Letters. Demotic Egyptian script to write Aramaic. Meroitic. Phoenician, Coptic, etc.
Brigham Young Un. Studies, 10, Spring 1970, #3, p.325-52, article: Stanley B. Kimball, The Anthon Transcript: People, Primary Sources, & Problems. Kimball presents a historical commentary, pros & cons on the Anthon transcript.
FARMS Staff, 1990, Martin Harris's Visit with Charles Anthon: Collected Documents on the Anthon Transcript & "Shorthand Egyptian."
Joshua M. Bennett, The Gospel of the Great Spirit, reprints Ariel L. Crowley's articles. Prof. Richard A. Parker advised Ariel on comparison
Late 2nd cent BC Theban Papyrus Amherst 63 J P Morgan Library, paganized version of Psalm 20:2-6 from Aramaic text in Demotic script. Journal of the American Oriental Society 103 (1983): 261-74; Biblical Archaeology Review 11/1 [Jan-Feb. 1985]: 20-23; S P Vleeming & J W Wesselius, "An Aramaic Hymn from 4th cent. BC" Bibliotheca Orientalist 39 (1982): 501-9. R A Bowman, An Aramaic Religious Text in Demotic Script, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 3 (1944) 219-23
At how many institutions is Joseph's *reformed Egyptian* taught, or even studied? Why are the top scholars in the linguistic field not jumping all over the possibility of a new language that at one time was supposedly used all throughout the Americas? Millions of people reportedly spoke it, so why, then, are more people not looking for traces of this language in the Americas? Did it vanish like the steel and horses of the Book of Mormon?
@7h.: Every institution that studies English, though they might not know it, study a later version of reformed Egyptian. Colleges that study demotic, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Russian, or other ancient languages & scripts that have Egyptian as their ancient root mother language, are. Ones who study later forms of demotic types are. They probably wouldn't acknowledge connections with Reformed Egyptian in BOM out of biased prejudices, & because of their creed says: "There isn't any evidences for BOM."
For critics to say that in order for BOM to be true, a certain number of non-LDS scholars, experts in their fields have to put their stamps of approval in their areas that relate to Book of Mormon. Such a thing most likely will not happen, except in rare cases. However, unbeknown to them, they will offer evidences for BOM that they don't realize are evidences, as they do their own research into studies that relate to BOM settings. Example, Dead Sea Scrolls, scholars wrote about a copper scroll.
That is a pretty presumptuous claim to say that every university in the United States (other than the various BYUs) and every scholar in America (again, other than Mormons) is a *critic* with *biased prejudices.* I imagine that individuals who have looked at the evidence have come to the same conclusion that I have. Also, nobody is refuting the fact that the Roman alphabet or the English language exists; it is the language that Joseph claimed he saw that people are not buying into.
You need to stop calling English *reformed Egyptian* for the sake of this argument, because nobody is disputing the obvious fact of its existence. This is the fallacious argument you are making:
1) English, which uses Roman characters, exists.
2) Roman characters have traceable roots in the Egyptian language.
3) English is, in a sense, *reformed Egyptian.*
4) English, which is *reformed Egyptian,* exists, so the language that Joseph claimed he saw (Lehite *reformed Egyptian*) also exists.
You are making a huge jump in logic when you conclude 4) from the other three premises.
Anyway, we are not going to see eye to eye on this because you rely on the spirit to find what is right, and nobody can prove or disprove the existence of apparitions or ghosts, just like they cannot prove or disprove the existence of the golden plates or the angel that supposedly took them back up into heaven.
@angelmarauder I posted numerous "American Alphabets" from "American Antiquities...."' But the real evidence we want is lacking. The stories are good but no meat. And there must still be addressed the issue of an entire culture as described. There are many books, not just View of the Hebrews, asking was Eden in America, was Noah. Humans love being confused.
Your absolutely right, I cant "Prove" that Joseph Smith didnt copy off of reformed Egyption, no more then I can tell somebody to prove that Joseph Smith didnt copy off of a Reformed Latan transcript if that was his claim.
It would be nice to see some of the letters formed as words from those glyphs presented to Anthon. There is still an issue with the existing Abe' Pap' and its glyphs compared to what people like Champollion onwards say the glyphs mean...In my "American Antiquities..."series, I show many claimed American Alphabets. many claims. but the hard evidence is missing. Just this morning I bought a 5th "American Antiquities...", 1835, 5th ed., for $25 delivered!! I have 5 copies now from 1833-35.
Has the anthon transcript been translated in english? And can the translation be found in the book of mormon? Since it has been taken from the book of mormon?
I love the irony also..lol..was laughing my head off too..these poor anti-mormons...and those who left the church because they didn't have their "signs" (evidences)...how quick some are to jump ship and forget that we need to have fatih - not evidence - evidence comes when the LORD wants us to have it ..but it is faith that saves us - some people just don't get it.
english has been modified over the centuries- why not egpytian... any idea how many years, decade, centuries it may have taken for it to change as much as it did... ?new influences from assimilated cultures ?
However, you could say that he is spinning in his grave laughing his hindquarters off at this video and it's creative attempts to prove the preposterous.
Hi Kerry, Thanks for all the work you put into this: I agree that reformed Egyptian script is real. I have a question, are you saying the Nephites spoke Egyptian? What about the script they used before they left? Sorry a 2nd point (I'm a linguist!) I find it strange that he mentions it at all. Like me saying "I'm writing this in English" If you can read it you would know, if you couldn't read it, the statement wouldn't be much help to you being in an unfamiliar script! :) Thanks again!
The reason the Plates where taken back was because only one third of them was translated and that is what we have today in the book of mormon. Two thirds where still sealed and will be translated at a later date. Great work Kerry ive followed you for about a year.
I don't know if it would. I would not prove Nephites wrote on the plates. It would not prove an angel named Moroni actually existed and delivered them. It is much better to have the text itself to see if it conforms to the ancient world, which it does in remarkably amazing ways.
Yes, an angel did. Heh. Once the translation was completed, there wouldn't have been too much need for the plates I would say, and surely the Lord would want it to preserve it. Even the plates alone wouldn't have proved anything to someone or converted them.
I'm afraid everyone knows about the evolution of alphabets, this has nothing to do with 'reformed' egyptian in america from gold plates... Don't think you've 'proved' anything at all you're going off the history of language and writing that's it. here is a letter you might want to read and if you can translate these mormon reformed egyptian texts and show us how you did it using it then i'll see some 'proof'. Anyway been watching your other vids too and i must say thanks for the laugh.
dreamerwebdev 10 months ago
I am officially convinced...no further proof is needed! Give me my magic fruit of the looms!
OBDjFH05 1 year ago
THANK YOU good job
jefferylake62 1 year ago
When horses shit in different shapes, it is reformed horseshit...
pabobfin 1 year ago 2
@pabobfin
And when people like you respond stupidly it is reformed stupidity of argument.
Thebackyardfreemason 1 year ago
@pabobfin He left out Sumerian and Cuneiform both of which must be reformed Egyptian. I'm still coming to terms with Mormon leaving SA, and Cumorah, walking 1000's of miles with heavy gold plates, thru many barbaric tribes, (Joe had to run home with those plates) then in NY, plant gold plates in a drumlin and say nothing about that. And why are the names of towns in BofM found in New England and not SA?. Also, I thought the book was buried where the BofM says: Where it happened
IExposeMormonism 7 months ago
Thanks for clearing it up for me. Every alphabet on Earth is REFORMED EGYPTIAN. No wonder joe could easily decipher it. Thanks for this comedic presentation. Scary part is... there are people that believe this nonsense just like they believe in mormonism. I guess it's true that there is one born every day. Keep up the vids... I love a good laugh..
theboofooguy 1 year ago
@theboofooguy
Anything for you my dear. I notice you don't touch any of the evidence or proof, you just try to make it seem absurd. Thanks for demonstrating it is beyond your ability to refute. That is, oddly enough, quite reassuring to the rest of us.
Thebackyardfreemason 1 year ago
@Thebackyardfreemason The fact that you are reaching SOO far demonstrates your inability to reason. Rationalization is not proof. Well...Maybe in a cult it is..
theboofooguy 1 year ago
"Nor any manner of ites..." Idiomatic expression?
quemacha 1 year ago
hahaha!!!
rabimansur 1 year ago
I'm glad I found this video. I have been battling this fight alone for a while now.
haidermann1 1 year ago
Were in the new world have you found all of this evidence for
Reform Egyptian. I'd like to visit the Museum to see this
beurbestnow 1 year ago
@beurbestnow
WHY do you limit it to the New World? The Book of Mormon originated in the OLD WORLD, and there are samples of this script there. There is no reason to find it in the New World, the record was not available to the public, but kept by a lineage group.
TheBackyardProfessor 1 year ago
@beurbestnow Youtube search: The Book of Mormon & the Mic Mac Indians.
Solid New World proof.
Ps. Don't forget to read the Book of Mormon and ask God to confirm it to you is it true. He sure did that to me.
jjrosenberg 1 year ago
What a fun video! I couldn't get enough. it is so obvious, but obviously ignored. Thanks for the brilliant and simple logic. I'll keep watching.
dcorton 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS Do you know of Hover Dam? Saying Mormons help the poor is like saying Hover Dam supplies water. I have talked to people on the ground diruing Katrina relief and in Haiti and they say the Mormon effort amounted to a gesture -- if that.
Secular Non-profits do the bulk of the work. Good people give.
This is another reason to leave your so-called "church". If you give because the bible tells you to instead of what your heart tells you to, you have been corrupted.
athono 2 years ago
If someone defends a lie, they bear false witness.
It is incontrovertible and demonstrative that Joseph Smith could not translate Egyptian.
Mormon apologist who defend The Book of Abraham do not disagree that Joseph Smith could not translate Egyptian nor do they offer proof that he could translate Egyptian.
The gig is up.
athono 2 years ago
It's fun to know you don't have to worry about any of it eh? Congrats that you figured it out for yourself. I wish you a happy and fulfilling life.
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
Why do you defend it? What does your actions do for you?
athono 2 years ago
So please, just what are the awful frauds and deceptions of the Church?
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Alright, since you brought it up: You say that the church uses tithing to build campuses, temples, and churches. They also spend money to help people; I will not discount this. While this is true, your church never releases full records of its financial activity. Their activity becomes even more dubious when you begin looking at the few numbers that we have to work with.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
At providentliving(dot)org, a site run by the LDS church, you will find a link to a Welfare Services Fact Sheet on the main page. There, you will notice that the church has given $1.16 billion dollars (this includes all their material donations as well, which account for the bulk of the above amount) to humanitarian aid since 1985. This amount might seem like a lot, and it is certainly more money than I will probably ever make in my lifetime.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Even so, the church is more than twice the money that it has used to help people in over two decades on one mall in Utah; namely, the $3 billion dollar City Creek Center. They are building a $30 million dollar luxury hotel near BYU Hawaii; they just bought the KJZZ building in Utah for $6.6 million dollars.
They recently released the amount of aid given to Haiti, where over a hundred thousand people died: $4.25 million.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon, Chapter 8 verse 37:
For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than
ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
If it were only churches they were building it is still condemned by their own doctrine; but to make matters worse, they are also building secular malls and hotels. Honestly, would Jesus build a mall that sells the kind of clothes young people are wearing today?
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
When the money from new converts end (because there are fewer new converts) they need to find a different source of income. Scientology does this too with legit looking business classes.
athono 2 years ago
First off, no tithing dollars are being used for the City Creek Center. This Downtown revitalization project is being funded by Property Reserve which is the LDS church's commercial real-estate arm. This company functions like the LDS Foundation which gets its money from the profits from church associated companies like Bonneville Communications and Beneficial Life as well as dividends and interest from other investments.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Many donations are made to local charities by the LDS Foundation in addition to the Corporation of the First Presidency or Cooperation of the Presiding Bishopric which run the church's welfare and humanitarian aid programs.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
The church invests its tithing money very conservatively. However, invested money earns interest. So, to maintain the church's tax-exempt status, subsidiaries like the LDS Foundation use those earnings to give to support local soup kitchens, women's shelters, and even in several instances has contributed to repair fire-damaged or time-worn churches of other denominations in the Salt Lake City area.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Are they in Haiti? I mean, are they helping with rescue and relief efforts now like the Red Cross and others?
athono 2 years ago
@athono Yes the LDS church was one of the first to send over plane loads of food, water, medical. I've worked in the Humanitarian center, making first aid packs, packs for school kids to have pencils, books, etc., & have seen it from that angle. What have you done to help ease the suffering in Haiti? Have you donated your time & $ to help? The church is not perfect, but it still helps a lot of people around the world with the funds donated to it. Not bad for a church that is charged satanists!
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
@RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS show me. Any news sites? Forgive me if I doubt you but this is the first I have heard of such things and does not fit the mold of a church interested in "missions" to convert rather than assist.
athono 2 years ago
@athono On the Tithing & Other Offerings print out, member volunteer to put as much money as they choose to do, never by force, into the following lists: Tithing, Fast Offerings (which is intended to help assist the poor & needy). Ward missionary; General missionary; Book of Mormon (production & distribution). HUMANITARIAN AID; Temple construction; Perpetual education; Other (specify).
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
@athono Show you websites on what? I don't know exactly what you're asking for, be more specific please.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
ath. Google: LDS Humanitarian aid. I've also witnessed 1st hand & taken part in & have pictures of clean up projects that LDS did in California floods 1982, & worked at Humanitarian centers making first aid kits, & school supply bags, furniture & received food & help when needed, working at different places for free. I testify, then as an eye witness, that LDS church is attempting to do good, despite the weak members who don't live the gospel as they know they should.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
@RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS Did you refuse to read what I wrote or do you choose not to understand?
Why not cut out the middleman? If Mormon people are good people, they do not need a bible or a book or a bishop to demand that they give.
athono 2 years ago
@at. I read em, but you're misrepresenting LDS, with comment "a bishop to demand that they give" it paints a false negative picture of LDS. Like saying: "You still beat your wife!" It's not "alleged" it's a comment that states verdicts of guilt with no cases heard. There's no tyrannical dictatorship of bishops pounding pulpits demanding $! It's voluntary, as is working at LDS humanitarian centers; unless your employed there, or required by courts to do community service.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Yes, Athono.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
There are Christians who consider the bible to be the inspired word of God rather than the literal word of God. Are there Mormons like that?
Or do you really believe that Smith could really actually understand Egyptian?
athono 2 years ago
The City Creek Center and other downtown revitalization projects are a great service to Salt Lake City. Crossroads mall was not built to any kind of seismic code. The entire mall and parking structure would have collapsed in even a moderate earthquake. Salt Lake couldn't find any investors or developers who were willing to touch this project with a 10-foot pole. So, the city does what it always does when it gets into a financial pinch and turns to the LDS church
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Tithing is Gods money and is used specifically for building the Kingdom of God and is not to be "double-counted" as providing for the poor. Tithing is used to build temples and churches worldwide and maintain buildings and church programs. For this precise reason, the LDS church collects a fast offering, in addition to tithing, which is used to fund local, church-wide welfare and worldwide humanitarian aid programs.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Again, you cannot make any claims that no tithing was used for the building of such structures because the church won't release their financial activity. They simply say that they aren't using any, and members are forced to take the leaders' word for it; asking for evidence would be seen as lacking in faith. Until the LDS church begins to let its members see how their money is being spent like many other churches do, there is 0 trust from those who do not believe the words of the LDS prophets.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
And even if they are doing the state of Utah a favor by building a $3 billion mall (in a recession, and in a time when people are starting to turn to online shopping and not going to malls as much), not even half of the Mormons in the world live in Utah. How is a tithe-paying member in Korea going to be helped by a worldly mall being built in Utah? (Answer: He isn't.) Really, who is that mall helping other than some people in Utah? And it is really *helping* them?
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
The church does invest tithing. It invests it into these *real estate arms of the church* that are basically corporations. Accordingly, when these arms spend money, it is not the church directly spending the money, and thus the church can get away with saying that they *aren't using any tithing on these projects.* I just do not think a church supposedly led by the fabled Jesus Christ would be spending more on world real estate than he would on helping people.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
How do you know that it's a worldly mall?
It's like saying the Church is evil because we have Deseret Book. Have you actually been to that mall?
Sorry that the Church gives back to its community.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Is this true? Do you have links?
athono 2 years ago
According to you,it would be seen as lacking faith.
There is shown evidence of how they have spent it. Just look at the temples that dot the world, the humanitarian aid, all the Elders serving missions faithfully, etc. Those who are in tune with the Spirit can discern not only the temporal but spiritual rewards that come from donating their time, money, and talents to the building up of God's kingdom.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
I guess we will have to wait to see the kind of stores that are going to be put into the mall, as well as the kind of clothing and other products they sell. It has already been confirmed that alcohol and other *sinful* beverages will be sold at restaurants there. It is just like the church receiving tithing from Marriott hotels, which have a wide selection of pornography to choose from. You'd think the church would refuse to take part in things that go against their doctrine, but alas.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Until they are sued like Scientilogy has been sued for fraud in several European countries. Don't laugh. It could happen. If Brazil or Japan resort to considering the church to be a damaging influence on their society, they have a case.
athono 2 years ago
Who exactly does the church help? I would be interested in hearing the good side of the church.
athono 2 years ago
@athono The church helps all types of people around the world & its members. They have "bishop store houses," that people go to get help, or to do word to help others with food, clothing, jobs hunts, etc. It's done out of love & according to what Christ taught, Matthew 25. The church teaches & helps people become self reliant, but if your in need, they help, & not just LDS people only, they help people all over. I seen the programs in action! I testify & have seen & taken part in these things.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
You do not need Mormonism to help the poor and needy.
athono 2 years ago
@athono Don't need Mormonism to help the poor & needy? Yea, but without it, there'd me more poor & needy, cause I don't see communist Atheists helping the poor & needy.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
That does not make any sense.
Methodists feed more of the poor and build homes for the homeless. And There are just as many Methodists as Mormons.
But, apart from that, without Mormonism, Mormons themselves would have more to give to the Red Cross and other secular charities. And more of their funds would reach those in need.
Also, what are you talking about communists and athiests? Shall I consider you to be a representative of your level-headed group?
athono 2 years ago
@athono A lot of Christians do help the poor, as do Mormons. Wouldn't it be nice if we all helped each other to help others, rather than put down others? LDS are annoyed at always being called, by other Christians, (who use the same types of Atheistic communistic anti-religious tactics to vilify others with); they're annoyed at being called satanists, a cult, & evil, while they're doing as much good as they can, despite not being perfect too, as our Christian brothers aren't. That's what I mean
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Comment removed
athono 2 years ago
Search on youtube for mormonism disproved in less than 3 minutes.
athono 2 years ago
@athono If you want to know about the church, going to anti-Mormon videos isn't going to give you a fair picture of what LDS belief, any more than reading only early anti-Christian writings is with Christ & early Christianity. Talk to the LDS themselves, not sources claimed to be LDS, but filtered to you from biased antis that distort things, lie, sensationalize & use Atheistic early anti-Christian type tactics to vilify LDS with.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Still, if it is not correct, it should not be spread. In secular schools, the Mormon version is history is not allowed to be taught just as the Muslim view of creation and the universe because they are not true. Filling kids heads with non-science helps keep our education one of the lowest on earth. If it is a lie, it is poison.
Talk of "anti" this and that only tells me you believe in conspiracies and boogie men.
The only anti-mormons are the ones who keep mormon brothers in the dark.
athono 2 years ago
Search youtube for Mormonism disproved in less than 3 minutes
athono 2 years ago
7th.: When I read your comments about having been a former LDS missionary, I later read in the Book of Mormon, today: "And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, & have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, & then have fallen away into sin & transgression, they become more hardened, & thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things." Alma 24:30. (I'm NOT saying your a sinner with this).
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Good, because I do not consider myself a sinner, even by LDS standards. I am happily married, still do not drink coffee or alcohol (never having drank the stuff before, it just doesn't appeal to me), and it isn't like I steal, kill, or rape people, so I do not know what I would receive court fines or be unhappy. I have never even gotten a speeding ticket in my life, nor had a broken bone or even a single stitch. Why would I be unhappy??
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
(And before you respond: Something I hear a lot is, *If you are commenting on YouTube videos, how could you possibly be happy?! I feel so bad for you!* What they don't realize is that they are doing the same thing by writing such comments to me, not to mention the fact that they don't realize that I personally find it fun to point out truths or leaps in logic in someone's argument when I notice them.)
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
I say this a lot online and I will say it again here: Mormonism does not have a monopoly on happiness or good lives. You can be completely happy and live a wonderful life outside of the church. (Oops!! The church leaders didn't want you to know that!!)
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Good, then go live your good life, and quit making ours miserable - GRIN!
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
LOL.
Haha, I guess the truth really does hurt, eh BYP?
;)
The truth is that people who leave the church or had some sort of relation with it just can't seem to leave it alone.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
You are absolutely right; we can't leave it alone. If one day you came to the realization that everything that you had been taught since your birth wasn't true, wouldn't you try to tell those around you? I remember when I first found out that Santa wasn't real back in elementary school; kids who had found out the truth told everyone, and it was a big letdown. I didn't want to believe it at first. Of course, my parents didn't want the magic to end so early either, so when I approached them (cont)
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
(cont), they told me they didn't know what I was talking about, and that I had to believe in Santa for him to come. This is what the church is doing, but in order to believe in their present-giving entity (Jesus) you have to pay 10% of your money to the church. In doing so, you move away from the harmless world of make-believe child's play and you enter into the realm of a multi-billion dollar international fraud. This gives people like myself all the more reason to spread the word.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Well guess what, I guess the Jews in the OT were duped too, seeing as how the law of the tithe applies to them as well. And what do the tithes go to? Church buildings, campuses, and temples of the Lord where people can be sealed for eternity to their families.
I am sorry that you are missing out on such an immense blessing. I have seen what the world has to offer, and I am all set. I've heard just about all of the supposed arguments even as an investigator as well as a convert. (contd)
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
Yes, the Jews were also duped. Anyone in the history of the world who has paid money to another human being in order to receive blessings from a deity was duped. as well, for that matter. I never said that other churches who implemented the law of tithing now or in the past are correct. To me, all religions are nothing more than massive fraudulent organizations.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Well it's unfortunate that you feel that way.
But there is too much evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon to just dismiss it.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
I see them for what they really are. Lies, half-truths, and deceit on the part of some rather illogical critics.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago
7th.: Santa Claus became real to me again, once I learned that he's a later legendized mythical story, that goes back into the early Christian beliefs, that Christ went to other nations around the world.
That's the reality of Santa Claus, once his mask, the mask of legends, are removed to reveal the wandering roaming world wide Son of God, Jesus Christ; known by different names around the world, according to their languages & arts.
You Tube: Justin Martyr Jr's series: Christ As Cosmic Cruiser
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
@TheBackyardProfessor I have to agree with him, Kerry. Many people have lived exemplar lives without Mormonism. There were a lot of people teaching the Law of Cause and Effect outside Mormonism. Unfortunately, the disciples always corrupt the teachings of a particular master.
EltonJThe 1 year ago
7h.: I agree! Some people don't realize that LDS, like early Christians, believe that they don't have a monopoly on God's word too! He speaks to who ever he wants, in what ever nations, times & to whoever he wants. He's judge, I'm not. I'm not interested in trying to change you, I'm interested in trying to change myself in a better man. "It's not my job to change everyone I can. It's my job to change myself into a better man." (Covert Cosmic Cruisers' lyrics to: How to Change the World, 2010).
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
7th.: Your right, LDS don't have a monopoly on happiness or good lives. For gospel pre-dates 1830s, & even Christ. God spoke to prophets around world, angels went forth too into all times & places all over. That early Christian belief restored in LDS faith, thus suggest that LDS don't have a monopoly on happiness or good lives, that many people around world & in spirit realms too, were given many chances to repent & live good lives. 2 Nephi 26:33; 29:7-14; Mosiah 3:13, 20; 13:33-35; 15:28-31.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Read: Abram Setsuzau, The Origin & Evolution of the Semitic Alphabets, Japan: Kyo Bun Kwan, 1937; William R Corliss 1978 Ancient Man: A Handbook of Puzzling Artifacts; By Study & Also By Faith, 2:273-334; Bezalel Porten, The Elephantine Papyri In English, 3 Millennia of Cross-Cultural Continuity & Change, NY: Koln: Brill 1996; Dictionnnarie Hieroglyphique Ed Demotique, Henri Brugsch; William Hamblin, Reformed Egyptian, Maxwill Institute; Google Reformed Egyptian, demotic, etc.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
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We've 1000s of artifacts, art works, writings, earlier bibles from all over historic Christianity that: Christ's & human family pre-existed. Christ, prophets & apostles preach gospel in hell; went to other nations. Baptized for dead; did temple type mysteries. Taught deification = becoming gods! That early anti-Christians argued against them like modern antis. If Christians don't believe restoration, why don't they at least believe in these earlier doctrines later legendized during Apostasy?
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
7th.: Sad you've rejected your earlier testimony, to becoming "born again"? An Atheist? Agnostic? Some other faith? What you say is lacking in Book of Mormon archaeology, is not in what we see in early Christianity. Evidences for Christ's world trek; Christ preaching gospel to spirit world; baptism for dead; hand & wrist grasping early Christian mysteries, etc.. Early Christian apologists' use of doctrines now restored to answer same modern antis' issues! I testify restoration & BOM are true!
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
I did not switch from one system of beliefs to another; I just simply do not believe in anything because we humans simply do not know (perhaps this falls under the category of *agnostic*). I do not deny the existence of a greater power, but I do not affirm it either. However, if such an entity does exist, I highly doubt that it is the vengeful, loving, jealous, merciful, just, etc etc God that we read about in the Bible or any other set of man-made holy writ.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
@7he7ruthHurts: Suggest you read Howard Storm's Near Death Experience. He was a former Atheist before his NDE. There're eye witnesses to God's existence, love & world treks. We can accept or reject them because it's our choice. I choose to believe, but not without much study, prayer, & most importantly, living correct principles & concepts of scriptures. I've already tried other way & found out hard way, problems that come from not living a good life, such as court fines, unhappiness, etc, etc.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
@7he7ruthHurts I agree with you that people "just don't know," when it comes to the truths of the universe and God. This is why I feel that personal revelation is so important. Without God's lights, no-one can really know anything about anything. The only knowlege that will ever make a differnence or have a true lasting effect will never come from man, it can only be obtained from God. As soon as we take God out of our believes, we are truly left with nothing but uncertainty and doubt.
TheOptimusprime9 1 year ago
The line you are pointing at is Arabic.
The last line is Japanese.
Egyptian language is purely symbolic in nature, through and through. Always using symbols and nothing like what you are trying to reference it with.
I'm not trying to be hard on you, but please have another linguist or Egyptian scholar look over your research before you post something as fact.
clint25n 2 years ago
7th.: I didn't say "every," for I include rare cases: Prof. Cyrus H Gordon, Brandeis Un. & Barry Fell, both note Egyptian & Jewish traces in Americas, in artifacts & some scripts. Ensign, 10-1971, Dr. Gordon; Before Columbus, 71; Fell, America BC, 76. However, LDS scholars note Fell's work has series errors too. Bell's letters from National Decipherment Center, 1980s "translates" script from Mark Hoffman's forged version of Anthon Transcript! DT, English, Is it Reformed, "Deformed" Egyptian?
JustinMartyrJr 2 years ago
*Every* as in the scholars who aren't LDS and who don't believe in Lehite reformed Egyptian; you will find this to be almost *every* scholar that is not Mormon out there. Again, it is not because these people have a bias; as a linguist myself I think it would be awesome to discover a new lost language that was used throughout the Americas. Unfortunately, the only writing we have from the immense Nephite and Lamanite civilizations is the Anthon transcript.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
@7h.: Read BOM? Looking for evidences? Know what's been found thus far? Or, already made up your mind "there's none"? So who is the "we" who "have" only "the Anthon transcript?" LDS scholars? Or is it non-LDS scholars? I bring up about "every" scholar point, & to clarify here: Critics often say that in order for BOM to be true, non-LDS scholars have to find evidences for it & thus be academically convinced. They're not making it a point to even look, so who'd qualify to present evidences found?
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Has there been anything found in the Americas that scholars have identified as Lehite *reformed Egyptian?* No, other than the Anthon transcript that Joseph wrote. Does Michael Coe up at Yale not count as a scholar who has worked extensively with Mormons on this issue? He is not an anti-Mormon or apostate; however, he very honestly admits that there hasn't been anything found that convincingly supports what is recorded in the Book of Mormon in the Americas.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
I do not require that someone be non-LDS to present valid information. However, when LDS scholars are trying to say that horse = tapir and make all other sorts of leaps in logic (even if Joseph didn't know what a tapir was, God, who was supposedly giving him the power to translate the plates, did, so there is no excuse for such vague translations), that is where you lose me (and the rest of the world of logically thinking people).
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
7th.: You still didn't answer my other questions? Have you read the BOM? Etc. Michael Coe, of course,doesn't accept the BOM, & even though his research contains evidences, he wouldn't dare declare that they are BOM evidences. Just like the Smithsonian Inst., they have their letters for the BOM & Bible that Dian E. Wirth answers in A Challenge to the Critics. Smithsonian Instu. members aren't going to admit that some of the research done throughout the years, artifacts found, etc., are evidences!
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
So what type of language would qualify for "reformed Egyptian," that consists of 600 BC old Hebrew, written in an Egyptian script? Which would continue to be altered & changed according to their manner of speech? (1 Nephi 1:2; Mosiah 1:4; Mormon 9:32-33). What non-LDS scholar is going to seek, find & claim they've found a script that academically convinced them that finally, there's at least one shred of evidence?
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Again, the *evidences* that have been found are hardly convincing. It is not like people do not want to believe in such a grand civilization; it is just that the almost complete and utter lack of evidence for the BoM civilizations of millions of people who supposedly covered the Americas for nearly a millennium tells any logically thinking person: This probably isn't true.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
And to answer your question: Yes, I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover many times, and in more than one language. I have gone out and proselytized in the streets and gone door to door for two years trying to get people to believe in it. It wasn't later that I really began reading into the past doctrine and teaching of the church and its leaders, and came upon differing opinions, that I began to question the validity of the book.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
For example, on my mission we had to memorize Joseph Smith's first vision in the MTC as though it were fact. I cannot tell you how many times I recited that in front of investigators. Unfortunately, I was unaware that there are about 10 different versions of that same vision, and the one I had memorized wasn't even the first of such. By they didn't tell us that at the time!
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
This is likely what the Russel M. Nelson meant when he said: *Indeed, in some instances, the merciful companion to truth is silence. Some truths are best left unsaid.* Or Boyd K. Packer when he said: *Some things that are true are not very useful.*
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
You've got to be willing to seek. Many critics claim that "there's no evidences," perhaps because they're not even looking. LDS seekers that do find evidences & present them are ignored, or vilified so that critics' myth & creed of "there's no evidences" can be sold.
My sources are why I believe, not why others have to. I testify, praying that this is spirit felt, as to what I've seen, researched, looked for & found in my studies: That reformed Egyptian is real & BOM is true! In Christ name.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Phoenicians "took the hieratic script of ancient Egypt & transformed & modified it into a form suited to Semitic languages. From this point the Phoenician alphabet was still further
modified by the Greeks, who inserted vowels & made other changes. The role of the Phoenicians in the evolution of writing from the ancient pictograms to the forms practiced today cannot therefore be over emphasized." Claiborne, The Birth of Writing,118-120; Voices In Stone, Doblhofer, 220-226.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Votive Tablet of King Tanyidamani with Meroitic script, more evidence for Reformed Egyptian! 651 BC Meroitic, is recognized to be a modified form of Egyptian script that matches up with Anthon Transcript & demotic texts. Phoenician city of Byblos' script are written on stone & bronze objects, found in 1920's, & contain 114 different symbols, nearly half of which are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs." (The Last 2 Million Years, 303, Voices In Stone, Doblhofer, 220-226.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
What language "consists of the learning of the Jews & the language of the Egyptians"? 2 Ne. 1:2, in Jerusalem areas, 600 BC? Lachish Letters do, there's enough of them from same era & area! Christians use them as biblical archeological evidences, thus bible evidences crosses over into Book of Mormon evidences! Meroitic script on a stone plate in the Nubian Museum of Asswan Egypt> Plus, in temple of Amon 1st cent BC-1st cent AD, Hypostyle Hall- Meroitic texts are more large samples of evidences!
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Poor anti-mormons...lol
imtherealthing 2 years ago
For all the research anti-LDS claim to do in LDS history, it's ironic that they continue to ignore greater parallels shown them, like those which Ariel Crowley did 1940-60s. If characters been occult symbols, critics would have announced "shocking parallels!" But because they show many evidences for BOM, they down play them! Robert McKay, after shown: "I am more convinced than ever that such a language has never existed." The Evangel, vol.39, 9-1992, #6, p.7, "No Proof of "Reformed Egyptian"
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
If any of that is the case, why haven't we seen any other example anywhere in the world of the characters that Smith copied from the plates themselves?
Why does it appear that they exist nowhere outside of Mormonism?
moparmonster1965 2 years ago
mopar.: They do exist, they're in non-LDS publications on Lachish Letters; on Demotic Egyptian; on tracing English back to mother language, demotic Egyptian type scripts. Google image demotic Egyptian, compare it with Anthon Transcript. See sources I've posted here. There's plenty of evidence & samples of scripts! You just have to take the time to explore & research yourself. If you can't find it, you're not looking for it. If you seek, you'll find, if you knock, it will be opened unto you.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Just for fun, I took your advice. If you maintain that the two are the same, your standard of proof is much, much lower than mine since they look nothing laike whatsoever.
What you also meant to say is that I should have a suspension of disbelief when it comes to Mormonism, the kind I watch Star Wars with. Sorry, but God gave me common sense for a reason.
moparmonster1965 2 years ago
@moparmonster1965
Morpar..God gave you no such thing as "common sense"..are we still lying?
imtherealthing 2 years ago
moparmonster1965, here is a link to a video that proves the Mormon church is true. No suppositions, no tricks; 100% proof. Watch and weep!
/watch?v=6mhh_RiEWtQ
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
@moparmonster1965
Rongorongo (Easter Island)..yet very little of it exists too. So does that mean because only a small fragment of it exists that it really isn't a language? It doesn't appear anywhere else outside of Easter Isle..so does that make it a false language?
imtherealthing 2 years ago
Keep on topic.
moparmonster1965 2 years ago
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BTW, Crowley's articles note for which of Jos. Smith's characters Crowley did not find matches; do you have other sources to match those?
manaen1lds 2 years ago
Crowley's articles -- you're showing the second in the series of 4, inc one in 1944 -- show that the characters Jos. Smith copied are demotic, which was a simplified form of hieratic, which in turn was simplified Egyptian hieroglyphs. Look up "demotic" in a dictionary and you'll see it's defined as "simplified" --> "reformed" Egyptian in BoM. Demotic came into use 700-600 BC, just before Lehi left Jerusalem. No surprise his descendants would continue to refer to it as the "reformed" Egyptian.
manaen1lds 2 years ago
Lachish Letters, date back to Lehi's 6th century times, & they have characters on them that also match up with demotic type writing & Anthon Transcript. Again, more book of Mormon evidence that's not suppose to exist! Digging Up the Bible, Moshe Pearlmann, 1980, William Morrow & Co. NY, p102-3; Ancient America & The Book of Mormon, Milton R. Hunter, &
Thomas Stuart Ferguson, 1950, 4th printing 1957. Kolob Bk. Co., Oakland, Calif., p.61, Fig. 8; Illustrated Bible Dictionary, p.1669-70.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago 2
Thanks for posting all these additional sources Restoreapologetics! Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice....
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
Israelites, 600-598 BC, used a form of writing that had Egyptian influences "...in the royal administration of both Judah & Israel (Samaria), hieratic numerals were used, striking new evidence for the influence of Egyptian prototypes in the Israelite administration." Biblical Archaeologist, vol.31, Feb. 1968, #1, p.12-15, fig.9 & 10, n.5, p.15,
Basor No.184, (Dec., 1966), p.13-19, The American Schools of Oriental Research, Jer. & Bagdad; History Was Buried, Margaret Wheeler, 1967, p. 247-258.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago 2
Sources for evidence for reformed Egyptian:
DT, English! Is It 'Deformed' Reformed Egyptian?, (Salt Lake City, Utah, R.H.& P.S., 1993, 1999); Ariel L. Crowley, The Improvement Era, Vol.45 #1, Jan. 1942, p.14-15, 58-61; Feb. 1942, p.76-80, 124-5; Vol.45, #3, March 1942, p.150-1, 182-3; Vol.47, 9, Sept. 1944, p.542-3, 576-83. Vol. 55, #9, Sept. 1952, p. 644-645, The Anthon Transcript & the Maya Glyphs, Ariel L. Crowley. About The Book of Mormon, 1961, Deseret News Press, p.5-59.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago 2
Yes, one of Heavenly Father's angel helpers took the gold plates back to heaven but, oddly, after the papyri were translated by the Prophet into the Book of Abraham, they were left here on earth.
And StorminMormin91 is right in that even having those original papyri here on earth sure wouldn't convert anyone. And they haven't.
Turandot29 2 years ago
I would type this in Japanese to avoid the irony of using *reformed Egyptian,* but I do not think you would understand, so allow me to play into your game. Although the English language may have come from the evolution of Egyptian characters over time, this is in no way evidence for the existence of the version of *reformed Egyptian* that Joseph claimed to have translated from.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
It is also silly to make the claim that because the characters Joseph scribbled down *have been found in actual texts* that they must be evidence of Lehis *reformed Egyptian.* Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. I wont even use Egyptian; I will use Japanese to make a point! At 4:00 in the video, characters that could be easily identified as Japanese appear:
人 (person)
入 (enter)
く (sound *ku*)
へ (sound *he*)
Wow, Japanese must be *reformed Egyptian* too!!
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
The last two phonetic characters *ku* and *he* are actually Chinese in origin (久=く) (部=へ), so in your sense of the word, they are *reformed Chinese.* Accordingly, Joseph could have just as easily made the argument that he was working with a text in *reformed Chinese.* Let me give you another obvious example. Check out 5:58, and you will notice characters that look Japanese again:
七 (seven)
ち (sound *chi*)
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago 2
Again, the sound *chi* is Chinese in origin (知=ち), so Joseph could just as easily have used the same character to claim that he worked with a *reformed Chinese* text. Without the actual golden plates, such speculation is pointless. You can say all the names you want and surround yourself with books in these videos, but it doesnt make the LDS church any truer. Thanks for hearing me out in *reformed Egyptian!*
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
7he7lieHurts: Even Japanese & Chinese writing scripts have been reformed, changed & altered in time: Oracle bone jiaguwen - greater seal dazhuan - lesser seal xiaozhuan - clerkly script lishu - standard script kaishu - running script xingshu - CURSIVE SCRIPT caoshu - MODERN SIMPLIFIED jiantizi (Orbit Chinese, Chinese Symbols Evolution). If Chinese can pass through "evolution" changes, why can't Egyptian? To compare Joseph Smith's "scribbles" to other languages not claimed is like symbols.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Umm did you even read my comments? I said that the the language did pass through changes. It was my point that languages pass through changes. The evolution of the Japanese syllabary of katakana and hiragana are nothing more than simplified Chinese characters. I was pointing out the fact that the language that Joseph claimed to translate from (Lehite *reformed Egyptian*) has not been found anywhere.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
By simply saying *all the characters that Joseph wrote down in the Anthon transcript have been found in and around Egypt,* you are not proving that such a language existed. As I demonstrated above, the characters can also be found in the Japanese language as well. Pulling many characters from many different sources over many different time periods to support such a claim is ridiculous; you need a single source that used a majority of the characters found in the transcript.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
And just for the record, critics are not saying that Egyptian has not been reformed or changed; they are saying that the reformed Egyptian which Joseph Smith claimed that Lehi and his family wrote in doesn't exist. You are distorting their words to shore up your argument, but you are missing the point of their criticisms (or perhaps purposefully dodging them).
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
The MicMac Indian language qualifies. THe point the evidence proves is that the script exists. If each character has an analogy in the Ancient Near East, where the BofM came from, it is far and away stronger than one or two items you find in Japanese.
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
The scripts have. There is proof of them, without doubt. That is one of the points I absolutely have physically, visually SHOWN in my videos.
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
No, you do not show that all the characters in the Anthon transcript can be found in a single work from a single region during a single era. You have taken various texts from various times/places to show that Joseph's fictive language existed, whereas I did the same thing with the Japanese language just as an example. I could find many more parallels if you would like; my point is that without the plates, it is all speculation. You cannot prove or disprove that which doesn't exist. :-/
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Yes I absolutely do. The language is NOT fictive, it is EGYPTIAN. The "reformed" part of it has to do with the CHARACTERS. The scripts have changed as I have absolutely proven. The language is REAL, it is EGYPTIAN. Do you need me to prove Egyptian existed for you too?
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
Are the writings on the Anthon transcript just characters by themselves, or are they arranged syntactically to create a sentence? Has anyone ever attempted translating the Anthon transcript?
Again, do you have evidence that those characters have all been used during the same era in the same region by the same people? It looks to me like Joseph just took a bunch of random symbols and wrote them onto a piece of paper; it's no wonder they appear in various texts around the world.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
I could make up a bunch of symbols myself and then go find characters that look like them in the texts of a certain region; context is what is important.
Anyway, I am only try to say that I think you are a little overconfident in your assessment that you have *proven* Joseph's reformed Egyptian to exist. Most of the evidence in this video only says that Egyptian influenced the Roman alphabet, and not that Lehi's language was real.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
@7he7ruthHurts.: A. We have offered evidences that you still claim is lacking. I don't care if your convinced or not, because these sources, & others, after years of research, is the sum of why I personally believe & testify that reformed Egyptian types of scripts exist! Blend of languages, where underlining script is Demotic types of Egyptian characters used by those speaking other languages. Cases: Lachish Letters. Demotic Egyptian script to write Aramaic. Meroitic. Phoenician, Coptic, etc.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Brigham Young Un. Studies, 10, Spring 1970, #3, p.325-52, article: Stanley B. Kimball, The Anthon Transcript: People, Primary Sources, & Problems. Kimball presents a historical commentary, pros & cons on the Anthon transcript.
FARMS Staff, 1990, Martin Harris's Visit with Charles Anthon: Collected Documents on the Anthon Transcript & "Shorthand Egyptian."
Joshua M. Bennett, The Gospel of the Great Spirit, reprints Ariel L. Crowley's articles. Prof. Richard A. Parker advised Ariel on comparison
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
Demotic script to write Aramaic
Late 2nd cent BC Theban Papyrus Amherst 63 J P Morgan Library, paganized version of Psalm 20:2-6 from Aramaic text in Demotic script. Journal of the American Oriental Society 103 (1983): 261-74; Biblical Archaeology Review 11/1 [Jan-Feb. 1985]: 20-23; S P Vleeming & J W Wesselius, "An Aramaic Hymn from 4th cent. BC" Bibliotheca Orientalist 39 (1982): 501-9. R A Bowman, An Aramaic Religious Text in Demotic Script, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 3 (1944) 219-23
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
At how many institutions is Joseph's *reformed Egyptian* taught, or even studied? Why are the top scholars in the linguistic field not jumping all over the possibility of a new language that at one time was supposedly used all throughout the Americas? Millions of people reportedly spoke it, so why, then, are more people not looking for traces of this language in the Americas? Did it vanish like the steel and horses of the Book of Mormon?
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
@7h.: Every institution that studies English, though they might not know it, study a later version of reformed Egyptian. Colleges that study demotic, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Russian, or other ancient languages & scripts that have Egyptian as their ancient root mother language, are. Ones who study later forms of demotic types are. They probably wouldn't acknowledge connections with Reformed Egyptian in BOM out of biased prejudices, & because of their creed says: "There isn't any evidences for BOM."
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
For critics to say that in order for BOM to be true, a certain number of non-LDS scholars, experts in their fields have to put their stamps of approval in their areas that relate to Book of Mormon. Such a thing most likely will not happen, except in rare cases. However, unbeknown to them, they will offer evidences for BOM that they don't realize are evidences, as they do their own research into studies that relate to BOM settings. Example, Dead Sea Scrolls, scholars wrote about a copper scroll.
RESTOREDAPOLOGETICS 2 years ago
That is a pretty presumptuous claim to say that every university in the United States (other than the various BYUs) and every scholar in America (again, other than Mormons) is a *critic* with *biased prejudices.* I imagine that individuals who have looked at the evidence have come to the same conclusion that I have. Also, nobody is refuting the fact that the Roman alphabet or the English language exists; it is the language that Joseph claimed he saw that people are not buying into.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
You need to stop calling English *reformed Egyptian* for the sake of this argument, because nobody is disputing the obvious fact of its existence. This is the fallacious argument you are making:
1) English, which uses Roman characters, exists.
2) Roman characters have traceable roots in the Egyptian language.
3) English is, in a sense, *reformed Egyptian.*
4) English, which is *reformed Egyptian,* exists, so the language that Joseph claimed he saw (Lehite *reformed Egyptian*) also exists.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
You are making a huge jump in logic when you conclude 4) from the other three premises.
Anyway, we are not going to see eye to eye on this because you rely on the spirit to find what is right, and nobody can prove or disprove the existence of apparitions or ghosts, just like they cannot prove or disprove the existence of the golden plates or the angel that supposedly took them back up into heaven.
7he7ruthHurts 2 years ago
Comment removed
JustinMartyrJr 2 years ago
haha. I like the music you're putting in at key moments ;-D nice effects.
angelmarauder 2 years ago
@angelmarauder I posted numerous "American Alphabets" from "American Antiquities...."' But the real evidence we want is lacking. The stories are good but no meat. And there must still be addressed the issue of an entire culture as described. There are many books, not just View of the Hebrews, asking was Eden in America, was Noah. Humans love being confused.
IExposeMormonism 2 years ago
Your absolutely right, I cant "Prove" that Joseph Smith didnt copy off of reformed Egyption, no more then I can tell somebody to prove that Joseph Smith didnt copy off of a Reformed Latan transcript if that was his claim.
Bibl3Thumper 2 years ago
It would be nice to see some of the letters formed as words from those glyphs presented to Anthon. There is still an issue with the existing Abe' Pap' and its glyphs compared to what people like Champollion onwards say the glyphs mean...In my "American Antiquities..."series, I show many claimed American Alphabets. many claims. but the hard evidence is missing. Just this morning I bought a 5th "American Antiquities...", 1835, 5th ed., for $25 delivered!! I have 5 copies now from 1833-35.
IExposeMormonism 2 years ago
What do you think about the characters he wrote @ 5:12 ish?
angelmarauder 2 years ago
Has the anthon transcript been translated in english? And can the translation be found in the book of mormon? Since it has been taken from the book of mormon?
MrGavygav 2 years ago
Once again...excellent work!
I love the irony also..lol..was laughing my head off too..these poor anti-mormons...and those who left the church because they didn't have their "signs" (evidences)...how quick some are to jump ship and forget that we need to have fatih - not evidence - evidence comes when the LORD wants us to have it ..but it is faith that saves us - some people just don't get it.
imtherealthing 2 years ago
english has been modified over the centuries- why not egpytian... any idea how many years, decade, centuries it may have taken for it to change as much as it did... ?new influences from assimilated cultures ?
jesseakers 2 years ago
I think Jerald Tanner is getting a snootful of irony right about now.
canadianbacon007 2 years ago
@canadianbacon, I don't think so, mate.
Jerald died a few years back.
However, you could say that he is spinning in his grave laughing his hindquarters off at this video and it's creative attempts to prove the preposterous.
Turandot29 2 years ago
I'm well aware that Gerald Tanner is dead.
Having said that. he may well be spinning in his grave, but not for the reasons you propose.
canadianbacon007 2 years ago
Jerald Tanner that is.
canadianbacon007 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hi Kerry, Thanks for all the work you put into this: I agree that reformed Egyptian script is real. I have a question, are you saying the Nephites spoke Egyptian? What about the script they used before they left? Sorry a 2nd point (I'm a linguist!) I find it strange that he mentions it at all. Like me saying "I'm writing this in English" If you can read it you would know, if you couldn't read it, the statement wouldn't be much help to you being in an unfamiliar script! :) Thanks again!
jogsingumboots 2 years ago
Great stuff, Kerry, as always :)
hairbear30 2 years ago
Great video ! I needed a video like this!!!!
fanitaly 2 years ago 2
Thanks. I enjoyed producing it. Much more to come as I have time.....
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
The reason the Plates where taken back was because only one third of them was translated and that is what we have today in the book of mormon. Two thirds where still sealed and will be translated at a later date. Great work Kerry ive followed you for about a year.
ldsdon 2 years ago 2
Thanks. This was a REALLY fun one to make. I shall be doing a lot more of this.....
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
What, no comment on my singing? GRIN!
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
I don't know if it would. I would not prove Nephites wrote on the plates. It would not prove an angel named Moroni actually existed and delivered them. It is much better to have the text itself to see if it conforms to the ancient world, which it does in remarkably amazing ways.
TheBackyardProfessor 2 years ago
Agreed.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago 2
By the way Kerry, what book are you using?
StorminMormin91 2 years ago 2
Great stuff, Prof!
StorminMormin91 2 years ago 2
Yes, an angel did. Heh. Once the translation was completed, there wouldn't have been too much need for the plates I would say, and surely the Lord would want it to preserve it. Even the plates alone wouldn't have proved anything to someone or converted them.
StorminMormin91 2 years ago