Andrew Sullivan: It Gets Better—But Not Through Politics

[writersblock26]

Thank you for posting this, bigthink.

[Faerlon123]

I think it's weird that Sullivan is a Catholic and gay. I thought the Bible was against homosexuality? I'd get if he just believed in god or something, but christianity in particular seems so weird to me. Just proves how people cherry-pick their religion, and those who are religious fanatics are really those who take their books seriously. Religion is kinda extreme in itself I think, if you read the books and take it for face value.

[iseeuanditaintwhatus]

what you did in the 90s was lose your hair. gay people dont have an army, and you are not their general. your a bald, confused dork who realized if he acted different hed get attention. you are gay because you have a fetish for strong men because your not one. thus the "bear"beard. guarentee your a bottom. PLOW on!! is their a peircing somewhere?

[superugly75]

Hey guy,you should do a got man milk ad. That's ah hellava beard and you love man milk soo.....

[Mogley52]

SCIENCE SHOWS THAT THE UNIVERSE could not have sustained itself eternally because of entropy (even in an open system). Einstein confirmed that space, matter, and time had a beginning! That beginning had to be supernatural because natural laws have no ability to bring the universe into existence from nothing. The supernatural cannot be proved by science but science points to a supernatural intelligence for the origin and order of the universe ~ HOW FORENSIC SCIENCE REFUTES ATHEISM (Article)

[4165mc]

AS has been too long in the USA...

[Byorin]

Convince your neighbors, your parents, your coworkers, and everyone else in your circle of interaction that homosexuality is not a bad thing, then you won't have to worry about politicians being for or against you. The situation will take care of itself. Legislation can grant you the rights you're fighting for, but it really won't change how people truly feel about you and the gay communities if they were never convinced in the first place.

[DrNHand1994]

He's right that we need to convince the public to be for gay marriage as opposed to politicians. we still need to support those politicians.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon:Regarding the verse on rape,I can understand why you might construe it as punishment for consensual sex.However,knowledge of Biblical times is needed.If you know the punishment for sex is death,why would you willingly do it?Also,the verse states that she is to be killed because she did not scream,implying a"true victim"would rather die than face rape,a view held by many even now.Read Deut.22:28-29 where if a virgin is raped,her father is paid and she is forced to marry her rapist.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz There was no death punishment for sex. SEX wasn't the problem, it was the situation. Women were allowed to have sex outside of marriage as shown in scriptures. In the case you pointed to, the girl was engaged to marry and has breached that agreement by having CONSENSUAL sex with another man. So it was the dishonoring of the agreement the problem. "Because she did not scream" implies that it WASN''T rape. They pointed out that she was in the CITY so IF it was a rape, she'd alarm others

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon No,women were not allowed to have sex outside of marriage unless their fathers had sold them into sexual slavery(something the Bible allowed,btw).Why wouldn't a rape victim scream?Once again,threats made to the girl,threats made towards her family,the fact that the Hebrews,like the fundie Muslims today,believed that all women were seductresses and bringers of sin and hence almost impossible to rape,etc.Why don't rape victims report in Western nations?Lots of reasons.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz The point I made was that I do not recall any law saying that a woman cannot have sex outside marriage. Was there a law that says to kill a woman who freely chose to have sex outside of marriage? PLEASE do not embarrass yourself. The Bible told us things in a historical context of WHAT took place in Moses time. That was then, THIS is now , and prophecies were made to show that women would be LIBERATED! Don't mix Judaism with Muslim.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon Don't embarrass myself?Go back to your explanation of talking snakes,prophecies,and God playing "Risk"w/humanity in the clouds(because He is a strategist)Your ENTIRE conversation would be an embarassment to any rational person,so I guess you're ok w/it.Deut. 22:13-22 clearly states if a woman cannot prove that she was a virgin on her wedding night,the men of the city have a DUTY to stone her.Now,from your posts,you probably think this is ok since women are property+bringers of sin.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz It was never that the woman prove she was a virgin on her wedding night, but rather, it being discovered that she was not, which takes on a new angle of DECEPTION. There's no clause that says if a woman reveals she wasn't a virgin that she is to be killed! Some men prefer an EXPERIENCED woman. In addition, YOU keep confusing Christianity with [old] Judaism and Islam - They are NOT the same. Israel just celebrated it's annual Gay Pride, so not even [them] interpret those laws as YOU!

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz #2. How can a girl who was raped NOT alarm others even though she's in the city? The provision is then made in verse 25 that IF it took place in the field that they would not punish her, ONLY the man. Where you have it wrong, is that you are interpreting the 'scream' to be immediate, BUT the scream can come after the rape. In addition the verses AT NO TIME qualifies the affair as a rape. YOU are the one doing so.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz #3. Verses 29 points out that if the girl is single and is raped the man is to marry her forever. Bear in mind women in those days were not seen as equal to men. Marriages were arranged through family. Therefore, a man taking a girl's virginity is to be her husband - Rape or no rape, girls DIDN'T have a choice in which man they marry. Maybe it was harder for girls who were raped to get marry. Just recently in Libya, soldiers raped few girls to dishonor them re the stigma attached.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon And who was "dishonoured?"The man to whom she was property.I have no doubt that it was nearly impossible for a nonvirgin Hebrew woman to marry,as it still is throughout the Middle East today.If your god is truly kind,loving,compassionate,woul­d he not had demanded that women be made equal and that being forced to marry one's rapist was a punishment even more cruel than death?If we humans can figure it out,why can't an omnipotent deity?Unless he's simply the creation of Bronze Age men.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz Remember, it was a COMMUNITY of people, and so if a girl is raped by one of them, it's FAIR that the man maintain her. Remember, marriage wasn't about love back then! In addition, God did make the woman EQUAL in the Beginning, it was after she disobeyed God there came an imbalance. However, as said earlier, God did say that the women shall surpass men at a time to come. With God everything is strategic, don't blame God when we messed up, we're given free will.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz Be realistic, even in our western society where equality is strong, you do find if a woman cheats on her husband that he is emotionally affected AND in some cases that leads to physical harm by him killing her. So what's your point? Don't speculate, DID you come upon a law that says a woman who is not a virgin cannot marry even if the man cares to? You can only fear that which you are cultured to fear: a girl in Moses time knew her role in society. You are using NOW to assess them.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon Yeah,a girl in Moses' time knew her place:it was lower than the most mange ridden dog at the pound.Sorry if I have been "culturally conditioned" to think that 1/2 of society owning the other 1/2 is a bad thing.FYI:a man who kills his cheating wife in Western nations is punished w/life imprisonment.THAT is due to secularism which recognizes that women are equal to men,something which Bible/Koran completely denounce.Clearly,you think that it is fine that women were nothing but property

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz #2. Heaven or Hell - The CHOICE is yours. Either you live your life being good and kind to others OR you live your life being nasty and cruel to others. I am amazed how you Atheists love to abuse term - There is NOTHING rational about you. Rational speaks to 'being endowed with Reason'. You Atheist go about being confrontational on premises not espoused by Believers. The last time I checked the Ten Command says DO NOT KILL! I also at no time said women are inferior, I spoke to a PAST

[WooferBearATL]

The sooner people understand this... the better. There are few to no politicians that can be trusted.

[scruzer123]

Can we get away from the political and religious rhetoric. Andrew makes a realistic statement. Though we all think we can legislate away the gay fears in this country... the real change comes from us -- coming out, being out, sharing our lives.

[Betamax00]

Umm. So this is your it gets better message? Andrew WTF. So I suppose what you are saying is: Even if your politics are/were non-self helping...It gets better (thanks to gays that actually gave/give a sh*t and fight for these rights on the non-self hating side of the political fence)

[drawntotrouble]

Andrew Sullivan loves sex, he says; especially unsafe sex, according to his own personal ad, even as he was spouting morals and virtues lacking in the gay community. Jesus.

His gay-apologist standpoint combined with his Catholic guilt does so much damage to positive discourse about gay issues in America. He's a pseudo-intellectual who suffers from deep self-hatred -- and that's putting him into the most flattering light. And he's on our side, right?

[scruzer123]

@drawntotrouble so disappointed in your comment -- to bring up stuff personal about him and not pay attention to his message... which is "the most effective way to make change, is to make it ourselves -- not to pay our politicians to make it for us". They make the laws, but by coming out and being out the "fear of gay" won't have a leg to stand on.

[MercedAFBrat77]

"Not that there's anything wrong with that?" REALLY? He blathers on and employs the most trite, faux-apologetic Anglo-Catholic pseudo-social dodgery. This is only marginally an "It Gets Better" message. It has nearly zero application to queer youth, and seems more a commentary on the "IGB" project, with diversions and excusions into the complexities of Sullivan's bloviations.

If I were suicidal, this blowhard's speechifying would have ZERO value.

[HenrikOlsen]

@MercedAFBrat77 You'd be right if this was one of the "It get's better" spots. It isn't, it's him talking about the project itself.

[kcklein2075]

@MercedAFBrat77 This WAS a commentary on the IGB project, hence the question in the beginning: "Why has the It Gets Better Project been so effective?"  The man was asked his opinion and he gave it. Instead of insulting him maybe you should sharpen your listening skills.

[MercedAFBrat77]

@kcklein2075 You are correct. I did not listen closely enough. Because I LOATHE this man - and have for many years. When he begins opining, I simply shut down. I'm still hoping he'll be deported - or take his husband to England. I'm with "drawntrouble" on this one. Pity me, for I forgot that even a stopped clock is right twice per diem.

[JackFertig]

A strange blend of obviousness and cluelessness... Yes, politics follows cultural change. DUH! but politics needs prodding to keep up. And how do we get rid of discriminatory laws? It's called "politics". GLBT political organizing, giving us a head start on fighting AIDS, saved many lives. It has also built networks for GLBT cultural efforts and organizations. Poor Andrew, miles behind real GLBT leadership, has never stopped denigrating the work that makes his whining possible.

[elzakrasz]

Sorry Andrew,but sometimes the public needs to be dragged kicking and screaming towards equality.The majority of Americans didn't want interracial marriage at the time it was legalized,but it was the right thing to do.Probably a lot of parents still wish that they could force their children to work as well.And it's not just fundamentalists who are against gay marriage.Sullivan's own religion,Catholicism,is very much against gay marriage.As long as the Bible is believed,gays will be demonized.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz I think you mean, "As long as the Bible is MISINTERPRETED, gays will be demonized." Other than that I agree with your points.

[toolegit2quittttt]

@Kumtekmeon how else could the verse be interpreted?

[Kumtekmeon]

@toolegit2quittttt Remember the original speakers and the writings of the the books that have been fused into what we now know as the Bible, were NOT English. Hebrew (a bit of) Aramaic and Greek are the original languages of the Bible. The English is just one translation and when we compare the common translation of the English to the Hebrew, there is a BIG lacking in parts. Poor translation leads to poor interpretation. That's why we are to STUDY to approve ourselves; God knew of the deception.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon To respectfully disagree,I don't believe they misinterpret the Bible;they read it exactly how it is written.The Bible gives the death penalty for many "crimes,"one is being a woman who was raped and didn't scream loud enough(perhaps she had a knife to her throat?No matter).Homosexuality is a capital crime according to the Bible,but so are apostasy,working on the Sabbath,women who have sex before marriage,etc.The Bible should be regarded for what it is:Bronze Age myth,nothing more.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz At no time the Bible says a rape victim is to be stoned. However, those laws were SPECIFICALLY given to the Israelites; God at no time instructed Moses to impose such laws on other peoples. And being that JESUS came and set a new precedent, you have NO grounds on which to qualify the laws of the OT. In addition the Bible DOES NOT condemn homosexuals. That is why God said, My people perish for lack of knowledge. David and Johnathan were lovers. Did God object to them? No!

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon I hate to get into a battle of scripture,but read a few verses:Jesus certainly did not believe that his teachings were to abolish the Law,but to fulfill it.See Matt 5:7,5:18;Luke 16:17.Condemnation of homosexuals are found at Leviticus 20:13 and 18:22.Paul also speaks against homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27.In Deuteronomy 22:23-24,the death penalty for a victim of rape who did not scream loud enough is outlined.This is the Bible.Fortunately for me,I don't have to make excuses for it

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz Jesus was not speaking to the Mosaic laws, He was speaking to the Ten Commandments of God as pointed out in the subsequent verses. IF Jesus was upholding the Mosaic laws, He would not have broken them Himself. In addition IF He was speaking to the Mosaic laws, His disciples would not have also objected to such laws being put on the gentiles Acts 15:5,6,10,19,20. That verse in Deuteronomy suggests that the girl CONSENTED to have sex despite her engagement, as such BOTH were to stone.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon This is one of the many misconceptions Christians have about the Torah.The Law IS NOT the 10 Commandments;there are 613 laws listed and all are to be upheld if one truly believes the Bible.Clearly,in Acts and the writings of Paul,the Law was not applied to the Gentiles in order to attract converts(really,who is going to join a faith which requires circumcision at the age of 30 as a convert?)when the Jews did not convert in large numbers.Jesus did not eat pork or denounce the Torah.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz #4. I DIDN'T confuse the Commands with the laws. Many people join 'Faiths' and do worse. Look at cults that require you kill a love one? The reason why the disciples did not continue with the Law was because they know that the Kingdom of God was now within us. Paul preached about Grace vs Law. Peter pointed out they couldn't keep it themselves. Jesus broke the Sabbath by working, He declared all meats clean and stopped the stoning of an adulterer; all these go against Mosaic laws.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon Oh please.Read the ACTUAL history(not propaganda found in the Gospels).The Jews had heard the demigod tale before and weren't buying.Good for them.At least their god didn't threaten eternal torture for believing the "wrong faith"(come on,spin "hell is a metaphor for distance from god"CS Lewis garbage for me).Paul also said homosexuality was "unnatural,""an impurity,""dishonouring the body,"and a "degrading passion."Once again,if you claim to be a Christian,this is YOUR book,not mine.

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz YOU are the one who needs to do some research. The last time I checked, our discussion was bible-based. Maybe the Torah didn't speak in length about the punishment of Hell, BUT it also didn't speak to the reward of Heaven -You for selfish reason chose to look on the negative! Paul DID NOT condemn homosexuals, and I am AMAZED how gays themselves allowed demonic so-called Christians to lead them into believing such LIES. Can't you comprehend? Well, not so well from your other comments.

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon Okay,this is the last day I'm going to respond to your messages.Don't feel like you "owned me"because I choose not to reply.There is no sense in trying to have a rational conversation w/someone who believes Genesis is the literal tale of our species' beginning.Your whole"Well,no heaven is worse than heaven and hell" is simply stupid.Can't you comprehend?It's like having a father who will either give you a Mercedes or puts out his cigarette in your eye.This is not a good father,sorry

[Kumtekmeon]

@elzakrasz I at no time said "Genesis is the literal tale of our species," however, it is more sensible to think we were created by God than to think we came as a result of a big bang billions of years ago and evolved into this purposed civilization. In fact many ancient civilizations accredited their existence to a God from the sky. Your analogy of Heaven and Hell is flawed - It is like a father giving his son a million dollars to stay in a 5* hotel and he instead booked into a shabby motel!

[elzakrasz]

@Kumtekmeon That is your best defense of Christianity?Other cults might require you to "kill a loved one"(really,besides the Geraldo pseudo Satanic scare,which modern cults have demanded this?)How about a cult which requires you to abandon your wife,kids,etc.,give up everything you own,and clearly believed,2000 years ago,that the end of the world was at hand?No,it's not the Moonies but good old JC.You might want to paint him as a cool hippie guy who loved everyone,but that's not the whole truth.

[TheEtceteraEtcetera]

@Kumtekmeon You obviously don't know the bible as well as you so claim.

What I find hysterical is that you claim the laws put in place by Moses aren't the word of God, yet Moses was one of a select few people who had a DIRECT LINE TO GOD.

Exodus 31:12-15 STATES for example, that 'THE LORD' commands the death of people who work on a Sunday / Sabbath. Not Moses, not some other intermediary...God himself commands that. The bible is no good for toilet paper.

[Kumtekmeon]

@TheEtceteraEtcetera #3. I at NO TIME said the Laws given to Moses, were not from God! But what you FAIL to understand is that we are under A NEW COVENANT so the Laws of Moses are not applicable to us. Bear in minsd the Laws and the Ten Commandments are NOT the same! God did make the promise that He would write the laws in our Minds and Hearts - That's what Jesus came and did - The Kingdom of God is INSIDE US! Kindly go and read those chapters I recommended.

[TheEtceteraEtcetera]

@Kumtekmeon So wait, leme get this straight. The almightly lord. The most supreme, powerful and richeous being in all existence. With the power to create and destory, mold time and existance and matter and will to his own. A self-proclaimed infallible, justified, perfect God...changes his mind? He gets a couple of thousand years into his own creation and says "Well, actually I don't believe that anymore. Do something else. This doesn't apply anymore." ?! Forgive the bluntness, but thats retarded

[Kumtekmeon]

@TheEtceteraEtcetera Your comment PROVES that you are YET to know who is GOD and what His Mission is about!!! God is engaged in countless battles and has a final War in which he will conquer His enemy. The Mosaic system was never meant to be for all - Abraham precedes Moses and the Covenant Jesus instituted is pattern off Abraham's faith - That is why Abraham is considered 'Father of ALL nations' and NOT Moses - The covenant with Moses was for the Jews and those dwell among them.

[TheEtceteraEtcetera]

@Kumtekmeon More to the point. Nowhere. NOWHERE in the New Testament does is say that the Old Testament is defunct, inactive, a 'basic guide' or 'to be ignored'. It's still the bible, it's still evil.

[Kumtekmeon]

@TheEtceteraEtcetera #1. Do you know WHY Judaism is not an 'evangelical' religion? Because when God gave Moses the laws, He at no time commissioned them to go out and convert others - IF the system that God gave Moses was perfect, there would NOT be a need for Jesus. Well in order to save ALL MANKIND, Jesus came, God told us in Mk 9:7 to Listen Him. Well Jesus went about and taught us HIS COMMANDS and then before He ascended, He charged us to go into all nations and teach all that.HE taught us

[Kumtekmeon]

@TheEtceteraEtcetera #2. Therefore, as Christians we are to follow Jesus, NOT Moses! Read Acts 15 and Galatians 3 to see that we are under a NEW COVENANT! However, many pastors hold unto the Mosaic books of law in order to condemn gays. BUT in reality, homosexuality at no time was condemned by God - What you have in Leviticus 18:22 is an Interpretation of the Hebrew Text. If the English scholars were truthful in all sense, They would've given a TRANSLATION and not a biased Interpretation.

[Pilaf1984]

@Kumtekmeon  Why should anyone base their morality on the Bible?

[Kumtekmeon]

@Pilaf1984 It is not a matter of basing one's morality on the bible. Morality is there as social [laws] to guide how we behave in society and interact with each other. ANY moral code that can bring about unity and respect and encourages harmony within a community is worthwhile to have.