I think that once you're done with The Case for Christ, you should read portions of the Bible and give your reaction to it, from both a literal and a mythological perspective.
Meh; once and awhile there is a nice little nugget of a life lesson, followed by 300 pages of sex, murder and sadism on a scale that would make Stalin's jaw drop... i mean i guess greek mythos isnt much less bloody, but at least we are farther removed as a people from that to enjoy it as a fictional tale
I dont know if you play video games at all but there was a recent one that came out called El Shaddai. The deeply biblical story meshes perfectly with both souring musical scores and surreal depictions of ethereal landscapes in a way that makes if feel awesome to be the champion of a deity much like god of the Abrahamic religions. Its a perfect example of being able to appreciate good mythology for what is, an epic expression of the human imagination.
@RoadsideFruit I've never played the game, but I know exactly what you're saying. I don't believe The Odyssey is about things that actually happened, but it's one of my favorite works of literature. Good stories are good stories.
Richard Dawkins said something similar in watch?v=SLE835UZf-M from 03:40 though he was talking about the bible's significance in relation to other literature.
I feel like you do about many of the hymns that I used to play and sing at sunday school. The arrangements are often very pretty, and the lyrics, false though they are, are reassuring. Playing and singing hymns takes me back to a happy, safe, innocent time, and is comforting.
Maybe that's partly why you like certain parts of the bible?
@KrisBlueNZ Maybe, though I never really felt any connection with the Bible as a child. I can relate on the music, though. I enjoy a lot of sacred music, and I'm not troubled at all by the fact that it was written to celebrate imaginary things. If the emotion comes through, it doesn't matter whether the song is rooted in reality or not. Shit, that Superman song by Five For Fighting still gets me.
I've always been interested in the Bible as a work of literature and mythology. Sadly, the more I hear those Bible-thumping fundamentalists with their ignorant, bigotted, literalist version of the book, the less I'm able to appreciate it. To many negative associations. Sad.
I thought one of the points of the Hebrew creation myth was to contrast it with other myths that set their god(s) in a pre-existing place which they then brought order into. The Hebrew myth sets the god before anything else exists and makes it the creator of everything (ex nihilo), not just a "re-designer of the universe in the universe". Maybe that was prompted by a more general philosophical insight in the region regarding cause and effect and the need for a prime cause.
To be fair, the Bible, like the Quran, has stood the test of time not because of its literary merit, but because those who follow those books killed and destroyed almost any alternative.
In the free market of ideas, I suspect other mythologies may have lasted longer and been more appreciated.
@johnycannuk I suspect you're right. And I admit, much of my literary appreciation for the Bible is specific to the King James translation. It's not so much the myths themselves as the language used to tell them.
@SinnFein4ever Good point. And also let's remember that for most of the history of Christianity, those outside the priesthood couldn't read what was written in the book, anyway. Which makes me wonder why so many of them are so attached to it . . .
As to why most people are so attached to religion, I suppose the main reason, is that few of them have ever actually sat down, and read their "holy book".
I've got a copy of "the" bible here next to me right now.
I've been skimming through it, and let me tell you, this is NOT for little kids to read.
I just read a story where a woman and her 7 sons were tortured to death, one by one, by a king, because they would not eat pork.
@SinnFein4ever "Jehu confronts Jezebel in Jezreel, where he incites her court officials to murder the queen via defenestration and leave her corpse to be eaten by dogs. "
The pre exile Israelites.... some of my favorites for good ol' blood and guts....
@SinnFein4ever Could be, but you've got to remember that Jezebel was the real power behind the throne, and Jehu was performing a coup d'etat, I think he had her tossed off the wall because he couldn't afford to let her live.
The bible might make it look like she was just a loose immoral woman, but the story reveals a real political player.
I just like the way they have to make sure you know she was devoured by dogs... such a nice Old testament touch.
@moopism "I just like the way they have to make sure you know she was devoured by dogs... such a nice Old testament touch." Yaweh was really into hard-core S&M.
@MARI0LAND Good question. The documentary hypothesis estimates the age of the books of the Torah to be around 2500 years, so in the sense of being written down it's nowhere near 5000. And the King James translation I was holding is far, far more recent than that. I suppose it's possible I was just pulling a number out of my ass.
Well, wikipedia says under "documentary hypothesis": "the Yahwist source ( J ) : written c. 950 BC in the southern Kingdom of Judah. the Elohist source ( E ) : written c. 850 BC in the northern Kingdom of Israel. the Deuteronomist ( D ) : written c. 600 BC in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform. the Priestly source ( P ) : written c. 500 BC by Kohanim (Jewish priests) in exile in Babylon."
I think I'll stick to Melville and Pratchett. I wish I could read the bible and find anything in it that is enjoyable or insightful. The only interest I find in it is as a historical artifact. How it has been changed and modified over the centuries to become what it is today. How it has been used as a recruitment tool and club. I find it to be a bloody, boring, immoral, difficult, repetitive read. I appreciate it's significance but it is not my cup of tea.
@firefly4f4 Damn straight. I would pay good money for a Pratchett interpretation of Moby Dick. In all seriousness I am a self confessed Moby Dick addict, I have read the damn thing almost every year since 1988 when I read it on a lark. I spent an obscene amount of money for an early printing...I need help.
I think that once you're done with The Case for Christ, you should read portions of the Bible and give your reaction to it, from both a literal and a mythological perspective.
Kcerebrums 4 weeks ago
Meh; once and awhile there is a nice little nugget of a life lesson, followed by 300 pages of sex, murder and sadism on a scale that would make Stalin's jaw drop... i mean i guess greek mythos isnt much less bloody, but at least we are farther removed as a people from that to enjoy it as a fictional tale
gr8z0mbiejesus 1 month ago
@gr8z0mbiejesus Hey, the murder and sadism are the best parts!!!!!
moopism 3 weeks ago
I dunno. I just don't find much of the bible to be that poetic. And such of it is, mostly comes from the King James rewrite.
jursamaj 1 month ago
@jursamaj I agree, without the 'thee' and 'thou' and the 'smote', it's a pretty lame read.
moopism 3 weeks ago
I dont know if you play video games at all but there was a recent one that came out called El Shaddai. The deeply biblical story meshes perfectly with both souring musical scores and surreal depictions of ethereal landscapes in a way that makes if feel awesome to be the champion of a deity much like god of the Abrahamic religions. Its a perfect example of being able to appreciate good mythology for what is, an epic expression of the human imagination.
RoadsideFruit 1 month ago
@RoadsideFruit I've never played the game, but I know exactly what you're saying. I don't believe The Odyssey is about things that actually happened, but it's one of my favorite works of literature. Good stories are good stories.
stevelikes2curse 1 month ago 2
Richard Dawkins said something similar in watch?v=SLE835UZf-M from 03:40 though he was talking about the bible's significance in relation to other literature.
I feel like you do about many of the hymns that I used to play and sing at sunday school. The arrangements are often very pretty, and the lyrics, false though they are, are reassuring. Playing and singing hymns takes me back to a happy, safe, innocent time, and is comforting.
Maybe that's partly why you like certain parts of the bible?
KrisBlueNZ 1 month ago
@KrisBlueNZ Maybe, though I never really felt any connection with the Bible as a child. I can relate on the music, though. I enjoy a lot of sacred music, and I'm not troubled at all by the fact that it was written to celebrate imaginary things. If the emotion comes through, it doesn't matter whether the song is rooted in reality or not. Shit, that Superman song by Five For Fighting still gets me.
stevelikes2curse 1 month ago
You should check out the Finnish (Suomi) creation myth... I think it´s like a mix of the greek and the norse mythology. :)
MorganTheHeretic 1 month ago
I've always been interested in the Bible as a work of literature and mythology. Sadly, the more I hear those Bible-thumping fundamentalists with their ignorant, bigotted, literalist version of the book, the less I'm able to appreciate it. To many negative associations. Sad.
62netty 1 month ago
I thought one of the points of the Hebrew creation myth was to contrast it with other myths that set their god(s) in a pre-existing place which they then brought order into. The Hebrew myth sets the god before anything else exists and makes it the creator of everything (ex nihilo), not just a "re-designer of the universe in the universe". Maybe that was prompted by a more general philosophical insight in the region regarding cause and effect and the need for a prime cause.
wimsweden 1 month ago
To be fair, the Bible, like the Quran, has stood the test of time not because of its literary merit, but because those who follow those books killed and destroyed almost any alternative.
In the free market of ideas, I suspect other mythologies may have lasted longer and been more appreciated.
johnycannuk 1 month ago
@johnycannuk I suspect you're right. And I admit, much of my literary appreciation for the Bible is specific to the King James translation. It's not so much the myths themselves as the language used to tell them.
stevelikes2curse 1 month ago
@stevelikes2curse
The King James version is only used by Protestants.
And even then, not all denominations of Protestants.
There are a lot more Catholics on Earth (I think around 2 billion), than there are, Protestants.
So the KJV means nothing to the majority of Christians.
SinnFein4ever 1 month ago
@SinnFein4ever Good point. And also let's remember that for most of the history of Christianity, those outside the priesthood couldn't read what was written in the book, anyway. Which makes me wonder why so many of them are so attached to it . . .
stevelikes2curse 1 month ago
@stevelikes2curse
You make a good point as well.
As to why most people are so attached to religion, I suppose the main reason, is that few of them have ever actually sat down, and read their "holy book".
I've got a copy of "the" bible here next to me right now.
I've been skimming through it, and let me tell you, this is NOT for little kids to read.
I just read a story where a woman and her 7 sons were tortured to death, one by one, by a king, because they would not eat pork.
SinnFein4ever 1 month ago
@SinnFein4ever Yeah, it's pretty blood-soaked.
stevelikes2curse 1 month ago
@stevelikes2curse
Which probbabbly explains why most Theists never read the whole thing to their kids.
SinnFein4ever 1 month ago
@SinnFein4ever "Jehu confronts Jezebel in Jezreel, where he incites her court officials to murder the queen via defenestration and leave her corpse to be eaten by dogs. "
The pre exile Israelites.... some of my favorites for good ol' blood and guts....
moopism 1 month ago
@moopism
It sounds to me like Jehu was just ticked-off, that he was seeing a free woman enjoying her sex life.
Kind of like Muhammud, when he had his army attack an entire country, simply because he heard that it was ruled by a woman.
You probbabbly don't want to know what he ordered done to her and her daughter.
SinnFein4ever 1 month ago
@SinnFein4ever Could be, but you've got to remember that Jezebel was the real power behind the throne, and Jehu was performing a coup d'etat, I think he had her tossed off the wall because he couldn't afford to let her live.
The bible might make it look like she was just a loose immoral woman, but the story reveals a real political player.
I just like the way they have to make sure you know she was devoured by dogs... such a nice Old testament touch.
moopism 1 month ago
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@moopism "I just like the way they have to make sure you know she was devoured by dogs... such a nice Old testament touch." Yaweh was really into hard-core S&M.
SinnFein4ever 1 month ago
I agree very much with what you say. But why do you think the Bible is 5000 years old?
MARI0LAND 1 month ago
@MARI0LAND Good question. The documentary hypothesis estimates the age of the books of the Torah to be around 2500 years, so in the sense of being written down it's nowhere near 5000. And the King James translation I was holding is far, far more recent than that. I suppose it's possible I was just pulling a number out of my ass.
stevelikes2curse 1 month ago
@stevelikes2curse
Well, wikipedia says under "documentary hypothesis": "the Yahwist source ( J ) : written c. 950 BC in the southern Kingdom of Judah. the Elohist source ( E ) : written c. 850 BC in the northern Kingdom of Israel. the Deuteronomist ( D ) : written c. 600 BC in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform. the Priestly source ( P ) : written c. 500 BC by Kohanim (Jewish priests) in exile in Babylon."
MARI0LAND 1 month ago
I'll just stick to disbelieving the perversity that book spews.
ttopperr 1 month ago
I think I'll stick to Melville and Pratchett. I wish I could read the bible and find anything in it that is enjoyable or insightful. The only interest I find in it is as a historical artifact. How it has been changed and modified over the centuries to become what it is today. How it has been used as a recruitment tool and club. I find it to be a bloody, boring, immoral, difficult, repetitive read. I appreciate it's significance but it is not my cup of tea.
dgeypscun 1 month ago
@dgeypscun
"I think I'll stick to Melville and Pratchett."
Interesting combination, not sure it works:
"Call me Ishmael, I LIKE TO THINK I AM A PICKER-UP OF UNCONSIDERED TRIFLES."
You know, that may work after all. :)
firefly4f4 1 month ago 3
@firefly4f4 Damn straight. I would pay good money for a Pratchett interpretation of Moby Dick. In all seriousness I am a self confessed Moby Dick addict, I have read the damn thing almost every year since 1988 when I read it on a lark. I spent an obscene amount of money for an early printing...I need help.
dgeypscun 1 month ago
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Yea don't get rid of the bible put it where it belongs, the mythology section.
615Deathdealer 1 month ago
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615Deathdealer 1 month ago