What a giant bowl of David Barton cherries we have here!
I love how guys like this love to twist the words 1st "The amendment prohibits the making of any law “respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion" it is rather straight forward. When asked exactly what that means Jefferson said there is "a wall of separation between church and state". The treaty of Tripoli is rather clear as to what the founding fathers felt about a christian nation.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
There's no twisting - you're the one twisting it - yes it says the government can't make a law that forces people to follow any given religion, or prohibit them exercising it...
@IslandCave prohibit them from exercising it means prohibit private citizens from exercising it. Well the government is made up of private citizens, so they don't have a special set of rules, and meeting in a church or whatever doesn't violate anything - because it does not force you or anyone else to follow or to not follow any religion - if the government came and forced you to follow a certain religion or forced you to not follow a certain religion, that would be a violation of the 1st
I see lots of David Barton quotes here. For those who have the good fortune to not know who the gentleman is, David Barton is behind many of those fake Founding Fathers quotes you see. Look him up. I see your fake historian and raise you one Treaty of Tripoli.
@DeadLines73 Hey bud, I have a video called "Christian Nation Question." It should be in the video response, if not, its easy to find. I'm trying to gather responses on the debate. Would appreciate your input. I briefly mention David Barton, but fill in any holes or gaps you think are missing.
Sure, the founding fathers did this and did that, but you also have to keep in mind that 200 years ago, everyone was a lot more close-minded about what was acceptable and what wasn't. This era was the era of segregation- of hatred. We had slaves. We hated all blacks and all Asians and all Jews and whatever you could possibly think of. This isn't America of 1776. That follows true with religious beliefs too. Get with the modern era.
@Camel76 Hey do not call the "Atheist" RELIGION, a "farm!" It is allowed to assert it's RELIGIOUS authority, just as much as any muslim nation has!
"Science" is the NAME given to which law/order comes from. In Comparison the WORD "science" which is a little "s" (not capital) is just a word, and has no authority in debate.
You need to check the sources of your quotes. It is widely known that the Washington quote about governing with God and the Bible is unconfirmed, meaning there are no known sources that include it. But by all means, continue using it if it serves your purposes with people unaware of this fact. :(
Treaty of Tripoli Article 11: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
So you want to know what is it like when religion and government go hand and hand: Go to Iran, or read about Europe at the 15th, 16th or 17th century.
You: 'I still stand firm a belief in God is engraved in all our Founding documents and their correspondence."
First off, you need to get YOUR "facts" correct. Why is it the god (specifically your god) is not mentioned in the Constitution? That IS the "founding document." Everytime, you say "YEA" you should take a break and actually research the facts that you assert from the same imagination where you get your religion from. You sir need to learn your History and stop making it up. B true to u.
As an atheist, I actually have no problem with religion being in the public square. So long as all religions get there say. If you want to build a marble statue of the 10 commandments, then you need to allow scriptures from the mormons, hindus, catholics, and the non-religious. If you are willing to submit that no religion should be ' preferred' then you must include all religions in your community.
"John Adams believed morality could not exist without religion."
Kinda disgusting to hear this, if that isn't enough, the fact that various religions having different moral codes- yet still each claiming to be the one true religion is a cause for concern. But what Adams says, clarifies a lot of things, the belief in god itself doesn't make a person claim to be moral, it's the religious who claim they have the morals and non-theists have no morals.
When did Americans decide that the seperation of church and state is not in thier constitution is a god thing? Oh that's right, when they all got brainwashed by Christianity. Idiots.
Here I do not fully agree, in reality it was the fear that a national religion could be established in US, a national religion, especially as Anglicanism, or as Roman Catholicism.
That would have meant that another State would have influence on U.S.
The first amendment is the definition of Separation of Church and State, if we let one religion into the Government then we have to let ALL the religions into the Government.
Why does America have to be a Christian Nation alone? Why can it be a Catholic nation or Jewish nation?
The term separation of church and state actually comes from Thomas Jefferson and many of the Federalist papers. It is the most frank and obvious interpretation of what the first amendment MUST mean in order for it to really be saying anything substantive at all. The government is not allowed to preference one religion over any other, also however there are far too many religions to address equally, so it is just easier not to officially promote any of them from a practical standpoint.
@PropagandaBuster My mistake, the term isn't actually in there, but more detail is provided that asserts the same thing. For example, Federalist #69 differentiates the king of England and his church 'preferments' from what a President should be like.
I guess if those exact five words are not there, that's all you feel is important. Nevermind if the prohibition can only mean the same thing. Lets make the attending Hindus sit silent while the official city council meeting prays to Jesus.
@hugesinker - Debating words and semantics we will go around in circles. How about we interpret the actions of the people who wrote the First Amendment? When they went on to government in Congress, etc., they attended church services on Sundays in the Treasury Building, the Capitol Building, and the Supreme Court Building. So the very men who wrote the First Amendment, where they in violation of it when attending religious services on Sunday in the Treasury Building?
@PropagandaBuster There is nothing to say that people in government cannot be religious, or even that they cannot attend religious ceremonies together. However, if taxes are being used to pay them during prayer or while attending church services, and if they are calling that "state business", I have a big problem with that and so should you. The implication of the first amendment is that official government action cannot preference a single religion in any way.
@hugesinker - We basically agree, no state sponsored religion. However government officials participating in religious activity does not violate the First Amendment. Were the Founders wrong when they engraved on The Supreme Court Building “In God We Trust?”
@PropagandaBuster it seems to me that the founding fathers were opposed to religious institutions having influence on government and not opposed to the concept of god those are two different things.
@PropagandaBuster The Founders did not engrave the words "In God We Trust" on the Supreme Court Building. To my knowledge the only inscriptions on the Supreme Court Building are "Equal Justice Under Law" and "Justice, the Guardian of Liberty". The phrase "In God We Trust" first appeared on currency in 1864 and became the national motto in 1956. The phrase "under God" was added into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1956. These events could be attributed to the Evangelist movement in the 1900's.
@PropagandaBuster They did believe in God, but they were deists. They were not religious men. When they wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3). They did not believe in having a state religion. There is no evidence for the United States being founded as a Christain Nation.
@PropagandaBuster Just because you go to church on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian. I know many people that believe in God and agree with the morally progressive teachings of Jesus Christ. But they don't believe that Christ was the son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected. They take the bible as a collection of stories written by men, not the inherent word of God. They attend Christian services, because it is their culture.
@PropagandaBuster Just because you go to church on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian. I know many people that believe in God and agree with the morally progressive teachings of Jesus Christ. But they don't believe that Christ was the son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected. They take the bible as a collection of stories written by men, not the inherent word of God. They attend Christian services, because it is their culture.
@PropagandaBuster The Founders did not engrave the words "In God We Trust" on the Supreme Court Building. To my knowledge the only inscriptions on the Supreme Court Building are "Equal Justice Under Law" and "Justice, the Guardian of Liberty". The phrase "In God We Trust" first appeared on currency in 1864 and became the national motto in 1956. The phrase "under God" was added into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1956. These events could be attributed to the Evangelist movement in the 1900's.
Illuminati (ĭlū'mĭnā'tī, -nä'tē) [Lat.,=enlightened], rationalistic society founded in Germany soon after 1776 by Adam Weishaupt, a professor at Ingolstadt, having close affinities with the Freemasons and seemingly organized on a Masonic plan.
Other groups using the name illuminati have included the Rosicrucians...
Rosicrucians (rōzĭkrū'shənz), members of an esoteric society or group of societies, who claim that their order has been in existence since the days of ancient Egypt and has over the course of time included many of the world's sages. Their secret learning deals with occult symbols-notably the rose and the cross, the swastika, and the pyramid-and with mystical writings containing kabbalistic, Hermetic, and other doctrines.
Deism, a philosophy often termed "Enlightenment religion," was popular in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in England, France, Germany, and America. Unlike atheism, which denies the existence of God; polytheism, which recognizes the existence of many gods; and pantheism, which sees God in everything; deism recognizes the existence of a supreme being or God as revealed in Nature and perceived by human reason.
Golden Dawn, Hermetic Order of the, occult-oriented fraternal organization established by the Freemasons in England (1888), led by S. L. MacGregor Mathers (1854-1917). The order's rituals were derived from writings by Fred Hockley, and members had to demonstrate competence in mysticism. The group influenced authors William B. Yeats and Algernon Blackwood. The most famous member, Aleister Crowley, joined in 1898 and founded the rival Argenteum Astrum (1905) after his expulsion in 1900.
Gardnerian Wicca, which combined the teachings that he had received from the New Forest coven with additional ideas taken from a number of disparate sources, including Freemasonry, ceremonial magic, mediaeval grimoires and the writings of the occultist Aleister Crowley, a man whom Gardner knew personally.
Belief in God based on reason rather than revelation or the teaching of any specific religion. A form of natural religion, Deism originated in England in the early 17th century as a rejection of orthodox Christianity.
Deists asserted the supremacy of reason and denied the validity of miracles, prophecy, and a literal, fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. The term deism was little used after the 18th cent., when the term free thinkers came in.
@sickofcommies We still belive GOD based on reason even if you are Christian.It's a relationship with GOD youare supposed to have it's not a declaration.It's like having a god and not having any idea who he is.You actualy have to read their books and what they belive we cant go by a definition.We need to read books they read and their docrine as well to understand them this goes for christianity as well.They have one thing right they belive in one GOD they even put it on the dollar.
It's laughable, that you have such a problem with the word "separation of church and state", if the principle of it is directly written in the first amendment. Religion is not allowed to be established or prohibited in state, which is exactly the principle of a separation of church and state.
@suthnbikerman47 thats because atheists confuse mechanism with agent. kinda like explaining the origin of a car using only the parts of the car and it's mechanism. only intelligence can explain intelligibilty and information but when it's discomforting then primordial self-existent soup will do, atheists can't hide their prejudices.
@suthnbikerman47 it's kinda ironic that there are people who believe that it's their intelligence that leads them to prefer that non-living matter is responsible for their intelligence...
It means a separation between church and state...SEPARATION of CHURCH and STATE. Don't make shit up to fit your agenda and claim to know what someone meant when they explicitly said SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
Thomas Jefferson's version of religion does not match yours. Study history instead of your selective choices of what to apply. He is totally an authority of the constitution you imbecile, and Washington's beliefs on god were strained over long periods of his life. You fail
No, anyone may practice religion in schools on their own time. The laws forbid publicly funded teachers from leading prayer or specific religious practices.
Our founding fathers were many kinds of spiritual and religious. Few were exclusively Christian. Thomas Jefferson was particularly strange considering he amputated all of the miracles from his copy of the Bible.
Uhm, that's NOT what's going on. No one is "eliminating" religion from the "public square". The only protests are when the religious want the state to pay for housing and supporting religious expression. Any place you are paying for, be it any open area, residence or building that the tax payer does not pay his taxes to provide maintenance and support for (meaning, federal, state or city government institutions or property), you are free to worship any way you like.
In order for the government to respect the church it has to not show any favoritism for one church because if they do, another church will be suppressed. Since so many religions contradict each other, the government needs to remain separate. Just because the founding fathers were Christian doesn't mean that they didn't respect other religions. I know many Christians who respect other religions. I'm an Atheist and I respect religions so long as the separation of church and state is maintained.
Thank you sir. We need more people understanding the truth and trying to spread it. You displayed the facts very nicely and I for one appreciate you. So thank you.
"It is impossible to rightly govern without god and the bible" is not an actually quote by Washington. Also, you're falling on Thomas "bible chopping" Jefferson as in favor with religion, really?
@PropagandaBuster I could ask the same of you. I was just pointing out historical records, or the lack there of. Geez, even David Barton knows that's a phony Washington quote. Not only that, but the quote doesn't have any merits on its own rights, since there been countless government that exist outside the purview of Christianity.
@Chongyiaher - Sure you can ask the same of me, however it would not apply. See to say someone said something does require I know everything he said, as it is only required I know he said what I quote him as saying. As oppose to saying he never said something, then I would have to know everything he said, or have read or heard him say himself he did not say what he is being quoted as saying.
@PropagandaBuster Quite the verbal gymnastic there, eh PropagandaBuster? You missed my point, or maybe you thought you can finagle your way out of it by giving suppositions, or maybe this is your chance to live up to your handle and site that Washington quote that so many proved to be unfounded. Please, enlighten me.
@Chongyiaher - Okay, here is your enlightened: You want to believe the nonsense that “separation of church and state” exists in the Constitution and nothing I can write will convince you otherwise. How’s that?
@PropagandaBuster: "Jesus" said "Pass the butter, this bread is stale." You can't prove "Jesus" mever said this. As I worked as a gofer for a Jesuit Priest in my youth helping him with his research of the Apocrypha at the Vatican where the manuscripts that the Council used to formulate the bible are kept, I know "Jesus" is "recorded" as having said a huge number of things that never made it into the Christian Bible. Lack of disproof is not proof of something.
OK, so in areas of Michigan where Muslims are the majority, they should be allowed to start schools with an Islamic prayer? I could work with that. I guess in Utah, they could use Mormon prayers in government supported schools. I suppose you want the Mormons or the Muslims to start with a Catholic prayer? How about a Baptist, of even a speaking in tongues, as my group does. Sounds good to me. God Bless You.
McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71, 333 U.S. 203 (1948)
Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.
Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971) Edwards v. Aquillard, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)
Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.
There are many other examples, but this box is not big enough
@brimmster - Never mind referencing court decisions as these same courts found slavery and the internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry to be interned all to be “constitutional.” How about showing me in the United States Constitution or The Federalist Papers where it reads religion in schools is unconstitutional.
@PropagandaBuster The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the 1st Amendment erected a "wall of separation" between the church and the state (James Madison said it "drew a line," But Marburry v Madison is the case that gives the court the power to interpret the constitution. This is a no brainier, just read about the 30yrs war and then u will know why we dont have a set religion.
@brimmster - Thomas Jefferson was not in the country when the Constitution was written. You keep referring to the Court as being accurate with their interpretation of the Constitution, to which I have to fall back on their interpretation of slavery and Americans of Japanese ancestry. The court was wrong then, and has been wrong many times in reference to our Constitution. So please do not reference a Court decision when trying insert a “wall of separation” into our Constitution.
@PropagandaBuster - Your last sentence is DECEPTIVE. It implies that religion is strictly kept out of schools. Students may be religious but IN THEIR OWN TIME & without being an imposition on others. Religious INSTRUCTION is unconstitutional because it would violate the 1st sentence in the establishment clause: "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION;"
This DOESN'T mean that students aren't able to carry Bibles in their packs or read them during lunch or breaks.
@TheCodedAtheist - You conveniently left out the rest of the First Amendment in reference to religion which reads in full:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
You and your type seem to love to ignore the part which reads: “…or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” We Constitutionalist prefer to read that document in its entirety.
@PropagandaBuster - I didn't "conveniently" leave out or ignore anything, hypocrite. I explained to you how religious instruction is a violation of the 1st sentence in the establishment clause. Furthermore, "free exercises thereof" doesn't mean that you get to impose your religion on others. Try harder!
It's not a "hallucinated clause", it's the PRINCIPLE of the establishment clause, propaganda guy!
LOOK! " I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' THUS BUILDING A WALL OF SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE."
-T. Jefferson
Odd how one who uses the name "PropagandaBuster" should be guilty of lying by omission!
@TheCodedAtheist: Common tactic, nowadays. They do it to Darwin, Einstein, Jefferson and more... like, for instance, that most of the Founders were DEISTS, not "Christians".
@RyuDarragh - This guy, PropagandaBuster (rolls eyes) reminds me of another Christian history revisionist who is full of crap; David Barton. I suspect Mr. Barton's writings are where he's getting the majority of his "history" from.
@RyuDarragh Deists still belive in GOD but no they are not Christian but the majority of the country was.It seems diests have a GOD they know not one thing about because the rest of us havent even seen a book about this GOD they know.Lets just say it's a very confusing belife to begin with and it was choice for most freemasons.Who i belive actualy belive horus the sun god to be their god from their masonic books as well as they worship lucifer who they say isnt satan,So go figure.
@korzon Deism holds more meanings than one word should be asked to bear. Generally, to the point of almost being meaningless, it refers to the notion that reason plays an important role in determining religious knowledge.The term embraces the religious philosophy of the Enlightenment.
Enlightenment, The: The period of European thought which is equated with an emphasis on reason, experience, scepticism of religious and traditional authority, and a gradual emergence of the ideals of SECULAR, LIBERAL, and democratic societies.
Deism, a philosophy often termed "Enlightenment religion," was popular in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in England, France, Germany, and America. Unlike atheism, which denies the existence of God; polytheism, which recognizes the existence of many gods; and pantheism, which sees God in everything; deism recognizes the existence of a supreme being or God as revealed in Nature and perceived by human reason.
A polytheistic neo-pagan Nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
Gardnerian Wicca, which combined the teachings that he had received from the New Forest coven with additional ideas taken from a number of disparate sources, including Freemasonry, ceremonial magic, mediaeval grimoires and the writings of the occultist Aleister Crowley, a man whom Gardner knew personally.
Golden Dawn, Hermetic Order of the, occult-oriented fraternal organization established by the Freemasons in England (1888), led by S. L. MacGregor Mathers (1854-1917). The order's rituals were derived from writings by Fred Hockley, and members had to demonstrate competence in mysticism. The group influenced authors William B. Yeats and Algernon Blackwood. The most famous member, Aleister Crowley, joined in 1898 and founded the rival Argenteum Astrum (1905) after his expulsion in 1900.
@sickofcommies Yeh it came from the mary apparitions this very dangerous belife sytem has grow feminists love it.A very left sided agenda they have indeed.The only way to be christian is you need to take out the pagan stuff constantine implimented into it.People get a false view of christianity because they see catholisism as the head when actualy they are pagans.Seems people write their own philosophy and justifications for lack of faith in their own doctrine they are to follow.
@sickofcommies Look at jefferson he belives in GOD and the Bible just not the parts he doesn't want to belive.This is why i see diests as a accult because they removed what they diddnt agree with and wrote their own doctrine.Same as catholics and anyone else who claims to be their own denomination.For a GOD who wants people to follow Him He sure has a lot of followers who follow themselves.They are all a bunch of hypocrytes so are secularists they have their own lust for power too.
@korzon: They, like amny, believe that "revealed" religions are a scam. The Deists God they firmly believe can be known from the study of the natural world - "Behold, who is this? He is revealed and illuminated by what his hand has wrought, just as any one of us is known by our works." Good place to go is "w w w (dot) deism (dot) com".
Cue the circus music! This is absolute bunk! Please read Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with Adams as well as Thomas Jefferson's letter to Benjamin Rush.
@mikepiazza - The operative word in your comment is “was.” Because while Jefferson was President Jefferson, he attended Christian religious services on Sundays held in the Capital Building (so much for that “separation of church and state” hallucination).
@PropagandaBuster Well just because Obama attended services in rights church we still know he is a muslim at heart who actualy doesnt even care for muslims either.But yes the founders belived in GOD not that they actualy knew Him but yes they did and obviously when they printed the dollar bill they still did way after the 13 colonies.Athiests cant accept the truth even if a big GOD is on the money they use every day quite pathetic.Not that i agree with freemasons and their belife's.
@korzon He's actually a new-ager/satanist. His church is rooted in freemasonry. Wright used to be a member of the Nation of Islam which is masonic according to their own writings.
For over 150 years, there was no "Separation of Church and State" as we know it today. Countless examples of the mixing of Church and State were evident to all. Not until the 1947 Supreme Court decision in the case "Everson vs. Board of Education" did the interpretation of the 1st Amendment begin to change.
So let me get this straight...you, likely a rabid conservative who wants smaller government...you want the government to be involved with your religion?! Well, sir, I hope you get EXACTLY what you want, because the government will fuck up your religion just like it fucks up everything else.
Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820
If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists.
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or knew that such a character existed.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, June 5, 1824
'founding fathers believed a belief in God was necessary for proper governance and for proper moral men to govern'.
Article VI of theUS Constitution says clearly: no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
You have a double standard for halucinations and selective reasoning or you don't read things before commenting on them.
@Euryponx - - "Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus." ---Thomas Jefferson
@Euryponx - On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." ---John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817
@PropagandaBuster ;) Seems the founding father were not too sure themselves, were they.
“Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies.”
Thomas Jefferson
BTW: you do understand this is completely meaningless, don't you? It doesn't matter what any of them said or what the original constitution said. Life shouldn't be based on ancient myths.
@PropagandaBuster "Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."
No, I think this is the rest of the paragraph you need to get the full quote. Nice try though
@PropagandaBuster "Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."
Now THAT is the mined quote in context. Says something entirely different eh? What say you? Yaaay
@Euryponx You have taken John Adams completely out of context. Do you know that? If you simply made a mistake and didn't know better, I can overlook it. If you read the whole paragraph, you will see an opposite meaning. I'll send it to you if you don't believe me. Adams was a very strong believer in God, he wouldn't be so nice if he was here. If not such a gentleman, He would likely slap you around for blatantly misquoting him!
@romansten9 Yes please do. But actually it doesn't matter what Adams thought. He doesn't liven anymore and we do. In my opinion the perfect separation is when religion ceases to exist and is regarded like all those other myths about Zeus, Odin and all the other made up gods.
@Euryponx You claim that it doesn't matter what the founders thought, because they aren't alive, but we are. Unfortunately you are wrong. The intent of the authors of the Constitution does matter. Their intent is very clear, even if you take away all of their quotes in which they talked about religion and the church and state being mixed, (and there are MANY) we still have their actions of mixing church and state, we still have the Congressional record and the court records.
@Euryponx The founders quotes show overwhelmingly that they supported the mixing of church and state. But don't stop there. Even without the thousands of quotes, we have their actions of mixing church and state often. But don't stop there. We have the Congressional record which proves this. But don't stop there, we have the court records which shows the true feelings of government at the time also. But don't stop there, we have school records and other public records and other documents, etc.
@romansten9 "Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." John Adam
"I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself." John Adams
It doesn't matter what they thought. We will decide for ourselves.
What is this? I mean really. Who do you Christians think you're fooling? I'm not Christian, and I don't want my state favoring them in any way, or forming laws around strictly Christian beliefs in any way.
No matter how you idiots slice it, separation of church and state is a fact, has always been, and always will be.
You said: "I don't want my state......forming laws around strictly Christian beliefs in any way."
Not in any way huh?
So I guess you think the 10 commandments would be bad for mankind?
Our government and laws have been founded on the Bible. That is a fact of history, and the founding fathers said so in their own words. You can't argue with the truth.
You can believe recent fairy tales about separation. Try researching old history for once. You will learn something.
I have researched this. In fact, in college, I did a major paper on it going in with your exact viewpoint. I too thought what you thought, but as it turns out, I was wrong.
See, the laws were not formed based on the bible. In fact, the 10 commandments or even any mention of Christ was not even in any courtroom at the start of this nation.
BTW, with the 10 commandments, there's no mention of rape, but having sex with your neighbor's ox? That OBVIOUSLY was more important.
That explains it. You believed the truth until you started "learning" from schools and the media.
You need to read what the founders wrote in their own handwriting. How can you argue against that? You are getting your information from modern sources.
The 3 branches of government are based upon the pattern found in Isaiah 33:22.
The principle of the separation of powers are based upon Jeremiah 17.
The principle of tax exemption for Churches is found in Ezra 7:24.
@LoryLandskipper Why is there such a clear difference between public school textbooks prior to 1900 and after 1900? Have you ever researched this? God has been deleted from history, and students are now being taught lies, including you.
Why are you defending your teachers that have taught you lies? You should be outraged at them, not defend them.
Go back to the source. Don't trust what anyone tells you, including me.
I literally JUST told you about a paper I did in college, and you're telling me to research it?
Honestly, I cannot believe how big of an argument this is in our country. I've been through this argument before quite a few times now. No matter what you find, there's always something I can find to counter, and vice versa. This argument literally can be endless it seems.
When I researched this, I had to have an open mind. If you do the same, you'll be doing yourself a favor.
@LoryLandskipper Ok, you researched this. How do you explain the frequent mixing of church and state in the first 100+ years? Besides the founders actions, how do you explain the actions of the courts when people were punished for breaking Christian laws? And the quotes you may find are very small in number compared to the vast number of pro-religious quotes. Not even close.
Th revised textbooks?
Why are court cases being won with this evidence, and bibles being put back in schools?
Don't you see what's happening here? What you're convinced of? Look at what the Catholic church had just done to Europe. Look at what religion is possible of doing to society. The founding fathers understood this completely! Then the country STILL gave Christianity too much. One nation under God? In God we Trust? The impact was even greater during the red scare.
One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. This is America. This is where we should go back to.
American law is not based on the Ten Commandments, and the Ten Commandments haven't played any special role in our history.
The Founding Fathers in fact made it clear that Roman law and English common law were the basis of American law, and our Founders also refuted the claim that either Christianity or the Ten Commandments were the basis of English common law.
Modern historical analysis PROVES this.
Your twisting of history for an underlying agenda has got to stop!
@LoryLandskipper Church services were held in the U.S. Capitol building, and founding fathers of the U.S. attended church there. This continued for many years. How do you explain the fact that this was permitted, if there was a "separation of church and state" ?
@LoryLandskipper Why did the U.S. Supreme court say that the U.S is a Christian nation? Why did the court also say this:
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. (Jesus) It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S. 1892
That doesn't PROVE the nation was founded on strictly Christian principals. In fact, it wasn't too long prior that they started putting "in God we trust" on our money because during this time, Christianity was on a major rise. Where do you think Fundamentalism came from? What era do you think that rose up out of?
"“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”
John Adams is recalling a conversation between a Parson and a Schoolteacher At one point, the Parson said: .......Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!'
John Adams never said or believed what you said he did, he was telling a story
@romansten9 OK. "Although the detail of the formation of the American governments (...) It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." This also out of context?
@AmericanNohbuddy After reading some of jeffersons writings I don't think it can even be said that he had any respect for jesus' 'teachings'. I think he'd have been happier not having christianity at all, which is to be expected from any reasonable person.
The first part that you read is what most people are refferring to when they use the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." More specifically, it refers to religious test being a requirement for govt officals. The "phrase" itself is not "written" in the Constitution, but the "phrase" is summary and describes the 1st Amend very well and is accurate! Govt cannot be religious in orientation, force it on others, nor prevent personal practice, THUS the phrase, "SEPERATION" of Church and State!
The first part that you read is what most people are refferring to when they use the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." More specifically, it refers to religious test being a requirement for govt officals. The "phrase" itself is not "written" in the Constitution, but the "phrase" is summary and describes the 1st Amend very well and is accurate! Govt cannot be religious in orientation, force it on others, nor prevent personal practice, THUS the phrase, "SEPERATION" of Church and State!
Christian's by all means do practice your dark age tribal rituals, but YOU should have NO say about law, none whatsoever. It's doesn't matter how many tantrums you have; YOUR religious convictions should NOT be pushed on the rest of the world. If you want to live in the first world and enjoy all the things that the age of reason gives you, then check your bronze age mentality at the door.
After all the lofty talk of God and religion. They picked up their guns and murdered Native Americans.So why give a good shit what they said or wrote. I can think for myself,can you?.
Read Article 6 of the Constitution. The Constitution is the highest law of the United States, not the bible. Attempting to prevent or punish anyone for not bowing to religion from participating in or being part of this country is forbiden by this Article as well.
The term "their creator" used at the Constitution's begining could refer to any number of higher beings, and is not present in the Articles or Amendments that serve as and describes this country's law structure.
Nothing like advocating for a theocracy. "The United States of Saudi Arabia."
The separation of church and state is to preserve both the church and the state. And to what "god" is America suppose to be rooting for if it were the theocratic nation that is suggested here.
@PropagandaBuster Thomas jefforson described it as a wall of seperation between chrurch and state and he of course had a huge part in writing the constitution, so yes the seperation is there allthough it may not be called exactly that the writers were secularist and there writing reflects on this.
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - Really? How did Thomas Jefferson have a huge part in writing the constitution when there was no Internet? I ask that because at the time of the Constitutional Convention, Thomas Jefferson was in France.
@PropagandaBuster - A few days after Jefferson wrote that letter with "separation of church and state," he attended religious services in the Capital Building, while others attended religious services in the Treasury and Supreme Court buildings. Did Thomas Jefferson violate his own "separation of church and state?" Hmmmm?
@PropagandaBuster wow i guess your right but like it or not this is a nation founded partly on secularist ideas so the goverment would remain neutral when it comes to religion not wanting any religion to be favored amoung others. The treaty of tripoli states the nation isnt based on christanity and yes they were not all atheist most were deist.
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - Correct, we are a secular nation, and I would not want to change that. However we were founded by men rooted in Christian principles who had no problem with the display of religion in the public square.
Part of George Washington's Farewell address, 1796:
"Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
@PropagandaBuster George washington was christian however most historians agree that Jefferson Paine Madison and Franklin were deist like many other men of that time.
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - You mean most historians of the last 30 years. However historian of the 204 years prior knew they were Christians. Does this read like a deist to you:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson
June 13, 1814,Thomas Jefferson asked, "whence arises the morality of the atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such being exists."
What a giant bowl of David Barton cherries we have here!
I love how guys like this love to twist the words 1st "The amendment prohibits the making of any law “respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion" it is rather straight forward. When asked exactly what that means Jefferson said there is "a wall of separation between church and state". The treaty of Tripoli is rather clear as to what the founding fathers felt about a christian nation.
jim6584 6 months ago
@jim6584
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
There's no twisting - you're the one twisting it - yes it says the government can't make a law that forces people to follow any given religion, or prohibit them exercising it...
IslandCave 2 months ago
@IslandCave prohibit them from exercising it means prohibit private citizens from exercising it. Well the government is made up of private citizens, so they don't have a special set of rules, and meeting in a church or whatever doesn't violate anything - because it does not force you or anyone else to follow or to not follow any religion - if the government came and forced you to follow a certain religion or forced you to not follow a certain religion, that would be a violation of the 1st
IslandCave 2 months ago
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"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or preventing the free exercise thereof."
DiVeronica 6 months ago
I see lots of David Barton quotes here. For those who have the good fortune to not know who the gentleman is, David Barton is behind many of those fake Founding Fathers quotes you see. Look him up. I see your fake historian and raise you one Treaty of Tripoli.
Dacadvid 7 months ago
@Dacadvid Chris Rodda has debunked David Barton on many occasions.
DeadLines73 7 months ago
@DeadLines73 Hey bud, I have a video called "Christian Nation Question." It should be in the video response, if not, its easy to find. I'm trying to gather responses on the debate. Would appreciate your input. I briefly mention David Barton, but fill in any holes or gaps you think are missing.
thorthistle03 7 months ago
Sure, the founding fathers did this and did that, but you also have to keep in mind that 200 years ago, everyone was a lot more close-minded about what was acceptable and what wasn't. This era was the era of segregation- of hatred. We had slaves. We hated all blacks and all Asians and all Jews and whatever you could possibly think of. This isn't America of 1776. That follows true with religious beliefs too. Get with the modern era.
lidlurch 7 months ago
The farm animals dislike this video.
When will they wake up?
Camel76 8 months ago
@Camel76 Hey do not call the "Atheist" RELIGION, a "farm!" It is allowed to assert it's RELIGIOUS authority, just as much as any muslim nation has!
"Science" is the NAME given to which law/order comes from. In Comparison the WORD "science" which is a little "s" (not capital) is just a word, and has no authority in debate.
LampPlaceThing 1 month ago
@LampPlaceThing
I didn't. I called people like you farm animals. :D
You mean science falsely so-called.
Atheist do not have the right to do anything.
Camel76 1 month ago
@Camel76 I was being sarcastic.
LampPlaceThing 1 month ago
@LampPlaceThing
Hmmm, interesting.
Most sarcasm does not go over on the net. Unless there are smileys or something.
Camel76 1 month ago
@Camel76 By the way I mentioned the "RELIGION" of Atheism. There are people that religionify it, and others that don't.
LampPlaceThing 1 month ago
@LampPlaceThing
I do because it is one. Even Carlin said that.
Okay, no hard feelings.
Camel76 1 month ago
Would you like Sharia to be a law
getgot1 8 months ago
You need to check the sources of your quotes. It is widely known that the Washington quote about governing with God and the Bible is unconfirmed, meaning there are no known sources that include it. But by all means, continue using it if it serves your purposes with people unaware of this fact. :(
johnjsal 8 months ago 2
Booooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yourjunk420 9 months ago
Treaty of Tripoli Article 11: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
attemptingtobehumble 9 months ago 2
So you want to know what is it like when religion and government go hand and hand: Go to Iran, or read about Europe at the 15th, 16th or 17th century.
CuachicquehRex 10 months ago 2
You: 'I still stand firm a belief in God is engraved in all our Founding documents and their correspondence."
First off, you need to get YOUR "facts" correct. Why is it the god (specifically your god) is not mentioned in the Constitution? That IS the "founding document." Everytime, you say "YEA" you should take a break and actually research the facts that you assert from the same imagination where you get your religion from. You sir need to learn your History and stop making it up. B true to u.
cmsalvagio 10 months ago
As an atheist, I actually have no problem with religion being in the public square. So long as all religions get there say. If you want to build a marble statue of the 10 commandments, then you need to allow scriptures from the mormons, hindus, catholics, and the non-religious. If you are willing to submit that no religion should be ' preferred' then you must include all religions in your community.
rounder421 11 months ago
"John Adams believed morality could not exist without religion."
Kinda disgusting to hear this, if that isn't enough, the fact that various religions having different moral codes- yet still each claiming to be the one true religion is a cause for concern. But what Adams says, clarifies a lot of things, the belief in god itself doesn't make a person claim to be moral, it's the religious who claim they have the morals and non-theists have no morals.
TurboDally 11 months ago
When did Americans decide that the seperation of church and state is not in thier constitution is a god thing? Oh that's right, when they all got brainwashed by Christianity. Idiots.
AholeAtheist 1 year ago
Man stupid people everywhere
ratmanf13 1 year ago
Here I do not fully agree, in reality it was the fear that a national religion could be established in US, a national religion, especially as Anglicanism, or as Roman Catholicism.
That would have meant that another State would have influence on U.S.
VyckRo 1 year ago
Kids, this is what happens when you don't graduate high school. University is good for you and won't distort your views. Have a nice day.
FuckChristianityy 1 year ago
The first amendment is the definition of Separation of Church and State, if we let one religion into the Government then we have to let ALL the religions into the Government.
Why does America have to be a Christian Nation alone? Why can it be a Catholic nation or Jewish nation?
ThePrinceOfMoose 1 year ago
The term separation of church and state actually comes from Thomas Jefferson and many of the Federalist papers. It is the most frank and obvious interpretation of what the first amendment MUST mean in order for it to really be saying anything substantive at all. The government is not allowed to preference one religion over any other, also however there are far too many religions to address equally, so it is just easier not to officially promote any of them from a practical standpoint.
hugesinker 1 year ago
@hugesinker - Can you please direct me to the Federalist paper where the term “separation of church and state” is written?
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster My mistake, the term isn't actually in there, but more detail is provided that asserts the same thing. For example, Federalist #69 differentiates the king of England and his church 'preferments' from what a President should be like.
I guess if those exact five words are not there, that's all you feel is important. Nevermind if the prohibition can only mean the same thing. Lets make the attending Hindus sit silent while the official city council meeting prays to Jesus.
hugesinker 1 year ago
@hugesinker - Debating words and semantics we will go around in circles. How about we interpret the actions of the people who wrote the First Amendment? When they went on to government in Congress, etc., they attended church services on Sundays in the Treasury Building, the Capitol Building, and the Supreme Court Building. So the very men who wrote the First Amendment, where they in violation of it when attending religious services on Sunday in the Treasury Building?
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster There is nothing to say that people in government cannot be religious, or even that they cannot attend religious ceremonies together. However, if taxes are being used to pay them during prayer or while attending church services, and if they are calling that "state business", I have a big problem with that and so should you. The implication of the first amendment is that official government action cannot preference a single religion in any way.
hugesinker 1 year ago
@hugesinker - We basically agree, no state sponsored religion. However government officials participating in religious activity does not violate the First Amendment. Were the Founders wrong when they engraved on The Supreme Court Building “In God We Trust?”
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster it seems to me that the founding fathers were opposed to religious institutions having influence on government and not opposed to the concept of god those are two different things.
re121089 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster The Founders did not engrave the words "In God We Trust" on the Supreme Court Building. To my knowledge the only inscriptions on the Supreme Court Building are "Equal Justice Under Law" and "Justice, the Guardian of Liberty". The phrase "In God We Trust" first appeared on currency in 1864 and became the national motto in 1956. The phrase "under God" was added into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1956. These events could be attributed to the Evangelist movement in the 1900's.
TravisL50 1 year ago
@TravisL50 - I sit corrected. I still stand firm a belief in God is engraved in all our Founding documents and their correspondence.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster They did believe in God, but they were deists. They were not religious men. When they wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3). They did not believe in having a state religion. There is no evidence for the United States being founded as a Christain Nation.
TravisL50 1 year ago
@TravisL50 - So deists go to church services on Sundays?
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
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@PropagandaBuster Just because you go to church on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian. I know many people that believe in God and agree with the morally progressive teachings of Jesus Christ. But they don't believe that Christ was the son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected. They take the bible as a collection of stories written by men, not the inherent word of God. They attend Christian services, because it is their culture.
TravisL50 1 year ago
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@PropagandaBuster Just because you go to church on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian. I know many people that believe in God and agree with the morally progressive teachings of Jesus Christ. But they don't believe that Christ was the son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected. They take the bible as a collection of stories written by men, not the inherent word of God. They attend Christian services, because it is their culture.
TravisL50 1 year ago
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@PropagandaBuster The Founders did not engrave the words "In God We Trust" on the Supreme Court Building. To my knowledge the only inscriptions on the Supreme Court Building are "Equal Justice Under Law" and "Justice, the Guardian of Liberty". The phrase "In God We Trust" first appeared on currency in 1864 and became the national motto in 1956. The phrase "under God" was added into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1956. These events could be attributed to the Evangelist movement in the 1900's.
TravisL50 1 year ago
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Search the internet for these:
prince charles savior of the world
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sickofcommies 1 year ago
Illuminati (ĭlū'mĭnā'tī, -nä'tē) [Lat.,=enlightened], rationalistic society founded in Germany soon after 1776 by Adam Weishaupt, a professor at Ingolstadt, having close affinities with the Freemasons and seemingly organized on a Masonic plan.
Other groups using the name illuminati have included the Rosicrucians...
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Rosicrucians (rōzĭkrū'shənz), members of an esoteric society or group of societies, who claim that their order has been in existence since the days of ancient Egypt and has over the course of time included many of the world's sages. Their secret learning deals with occult symbols-notably the rose and the cross, the swastika, and the pyramid-and with mystical writings containing kabbalistic, Hermetic, and other doctrines.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Deism, a philosophy often termed "Enlightenment religion," was popular in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in England, France, Germany, and America. Unlike atheism, which denies the existence of God; polytheism, which recognizes the existence of many gods; and pantheism, which sees God in everything; deism recognizes the existence of a supreme being or God as revealed in Nature and perceived by human reason.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
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Golden Dawn, Hermetic Order of the, occult-oriented fraternal organization established by the Freemasons in England (1888), led by S. L. MacGregor Mathers (1854-1917). The order's rituals were derived from writings by Fred Hockley, and members had to demonstrate competence in mysticism. The group influenced authors William B. Yeats and Algernon Blackwood. The most famous member, Aleister Crowley, joined in 1898 and founded the rival Argenteum Astrum (1905) after his expulsion in 1900.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Gardnerian Wicca, which combined the teachings that he had received from the New Forest coven with additional ideas taken from a number of disparate sources, including Freemasonry, ceremonial magic, mediaeval grimoires and the writings of the occultist Aleister Crowley, a man whom Gardner knew personally.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Deism
Belief in God based on reason rather than revelation or the teaching of any specific religion. A form of natural religion, Deism originated in England in the early 17th century as a rejection of orthodox Christianity.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Deists asserted the supremacy of reason and denied the validity of miracles, prophecy, and a literal, fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. The term deism was little used after the 18th cent., when the term free thinkers came in.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
@sickofcommies We still belive GOD based on reason even if you are Christian.It's a relationship with GOD youare supposed to have it's not a declaration.It's like having a god and not having any idea who he is.You actualy have to read their books and what they belive we cant go by a definition.We need to read books they read and their docrine as well to understand them this goes for christianity as well.They have one thing right they belive in one GOD they even put it on the dollar.
korzon 1 year ago
@korzon Yes, but they are a religion and they are the theocrats.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
It's laughable, that you have such a problem with the word "separation of church and state", if the principle of it is directly written in the first amendment. Religion is not allowed to be established or prohibited in state, which is exactly the principle of a separation of church and state.
mardastheEitheist 1 year ago
Sadly, their will never be anything anyone can say or do to prove to atheist that GOD exist.
suthnbikerman47 1 year ago
@suthnbikerman47 thats because atheists confuse mechanism with agent. kinda like explaining the origin of a car using only the parts of the car and it's mechanism. only intelligence can explain intelligibilty and information but when it's discomforting then primordial self-existent soup will do, atheists can't hide their prejudices.
lightbrownpoop 1 year ago
@suthnbikerman47 it's kinda ironic that there are people who believe that it's their intelligence that leads them to prefer that non-living matter is responsible for their intelligence...
lightbrownpoop 1 year ago
The threat of a brutally ignorant THEOCRACY is a real threat,
from the far left.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
It means a separation between church and state...SEPARATION of CHURCH and STATE. Don't make shit up to fit your agenda and claim to know what someone meant when they explicitly said SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
Thomas Jefferson's version of religion does not match yours. Study history instead of your selective choices of what to apply. He is totally an authority of the constitution you imbecile, and Washington's beliefs on god were strained over long periods of his life. You fail
ercvstr 1 year ago
No, anyone may practice religion in schools on their own time. The laws forbid publicly funded teachers from leading prayer or specific religious practices.
Our founding fathers were many kinds of spiritual and religious. Few were exclusively Christian. Thomas Jefferson was particularly strange considering he amputated all of the miracles from his copy of the Bible.
umbraemilitos 1 year ago
Uhm, that's NOT what's going on. No one is "eliminating" religion from the "public square". The only protests are when the religious want the state to pay for housing and supporting religious expression. Any place you are paying for, be it any open area, residence or building that the tax payer does not pay his taxes to provide maintenance and support for (meaning, federal, state or city government institutions or property), you are free to worship any way you like.
RyuDarragh 1 year ago
In order for the government to respect the church it has to not show any favoritism for one church because if they do, another church will be suppressed. Since so many religions contradict each other, the government needs to remain separate. Just because the founding fathers were Christian doesn't mean that they didn't respect other religions. I know many Christians who respect other religions. I'm an Atheist and I respect religions so long as the separation of church and state is maintained.
SopranoOfTheNight 1 year ago
Thank you sir. We need more people understanding the truth and trying to spread it. You displayed the facts very nicely and I for one appreciate you. So thank you.
INSERTvUSERNAMEvHERE 1 year ago 2
"It is impossible to rightly govern without god and the bible" is not an actually quote by Washington. Also, you're falling on Thomas "bible chopping" Jefferson as in favor with religion, really?
Chongyiaher 1 year ago
@Chongyiaher - So then it is you who knows every word spoken by George Washington, otherwise how else would you know he never said it.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster I could ask the same of you. I was just pointing out historical records, or the lack there of. Geez, even David Barton knows that's a phony Washington quote. Not only that, but the quote doesn't have any merits on its own rights, since there been countless government that exist outside the purview of Christianity.
Chongyiaher 1 year ago
@Chongyiaher - Sure you can ask the same of me, however it would not apply. See to say someone said something does require I know everything he said, as it is only required I know he said what I quote him as saying. As oppose to saying he never said something, then I would have to know everything he said, or have read or heard him say himself he did not say what he is being quoted as saying.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster Quite the verbal gymnastic there, eh PropagandaBuster? You missed my point, or maybe you thought you can finagle your way out of it by giving suppositions, or maybe this is your chance to live up to your handle and site that Washington quote that so many proved to be unfounded. Please, enlighten me.
Chongyiaher 1 year ago
@Chongyiaher - Okay, here is your enlightened: You want to believe the nonsense that “separation of church and state” exists in the Constitution and nothing I can write will convince you otherwise. How’s that?
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster: "Jesus" said "Pass the butter, this bread is stale." You can't prove "Jesus" mever said this. As I worked as a gofer for a Jesuit Priest in my youth helping him with his research of the Apocrypha at the Vatican where the manuscripts that the Council used to formulate the bible are kept, I know "Jesus" is "recorded" as having said a huge number of things that never made it into the Christian Bible. Lack of disproof is not proof of something.
RyuDarragh 1 year ago
OK, so in areas of Michigan where Muslims are the majority, they should be allowed to start schools with an Islamic prayer? I could work with that. I guess in Utah, they could use Mormon prayers in government supported schools. I suppose you want the Mormons or the Muslims to start with a Catholic prayer? How about a Baptist, of even a speaking in tongues, as my group does. Sounds good to me. God Bless You.
dannon2010 1 year ago
@dannon2010 - May God bless you too.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71, 333 U.S. 203 (1948)
Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.
Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971) Edwards v. Aquillard, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)
Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.
There are many other examples, but this box is not big enough
brimmster 1 year ago
@brimmster - Never mind referencing court decisions as these same courts found slavery and the internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry to be interned all to be “constitutional.” How about showing me in the United States Constitution or The Federalist Papers where it reads religion in schools is unconstitutional.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the 1st Amendment erected a "wall of separation" between the church and the state (James Madison said it "drew a line," But Marburry v Madison is the case that gives the court the power to interpret the constitution. This is a no brainier, just read about the 30yrs war and then u will know why we dont have a set religion.
brimmster 1 year ago
@brimmster - Thomas Jefferson was not in the country when the Constitution was written. You keep referring to the Court as being accurate with their interpretation of the Constitution, to which I have to fall back on their interpretation of slavery and Americans of Japanese ancestry. The court was wrong then, and has been wrong many times in reference to our Constitution. So please do not reference a Court decision when trying insert a “wall of separation” into our Constitution.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster - Your last sentence is DECEPTIVE. It implies that religion is strictly kept out of schools. Students may be religious but IN THEIR OWN TIME & without being an imposition on others. Religious INSTRUCTION is unconstitutional because it would violate the 1st sentence in the establishment clause: "CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION;"
This DOESN'T mean that students aren't able to carry Bibles in their packs or read them during lunch or breaks.
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
@TheCodedAtheist - You conveniently left out the rest of the First Amendment in reference to religion which reads in full:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
You and your type seem to love to ignore the part which reads: “…or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” We Constitutionalist prefer to read that document in its entirety.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster - I didn't "conveniently" leave out or ignore anything, hypocrite. I explained to you how religious instruction is a violation of the 1st sentence in the establishment clause. Furthermore, "free exercises thereof" doesn't mean that you get to impose your religion on others. Try harder!
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
It's not a "hallucinated clause", it's the PRINCIPLE of the establishment clause, propaganda guy!
LOOK! " I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' THUS BUILDING A WALL OF SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE."
-T. Jefferson
Odd how one who uses the name "PropagandaBuster" should be guilty of lying by omission!
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
@TheCodedAtheist: Common tactic, nowadays. They do it to Darwin, Einstein, Jefferson and more... like, for instance, that most of the Founders were DEISTS, not "Christians".
RyuDarragh 1 year ago
@RyuDarragh - This guy, PropagandaBuster (rolls eyes) reminds me of another Christian history revisionist who is full of crap; David Barton. I suspect Mr. Barton's writings are where he's getting the majority of his "history" from.
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
@RyuDarragh Deists still belive in GOD but no they are not Christian but the majority of the country was.It seems diests have a GOD they know not one thing about because the rest of us havent even seen a book about this GOD they know.Lets just say it's a very confusing belife to begin with and it was choice for most freemasons.Who i belive actualy belive horus the sun god to be their god from their masonic books as well as they worship lucifer who they say isnt satan,So go figure.
korzon 1 year ago
@korzon Deism holds more meanings than one word should be asked to bear. Generally, to the point of almost being meaningless, it refers to the notion that reason plays an important role in determining religious knowledge.The term embraces the religious philosophy of the Enlightenment.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Enlightenment, The: The period of European thought which is equated with an emphasis on reason, experience, scepticism of religious and traditional authority, and a gradual emergence of the ideals of SECULAR, LIBERAL, and democratic societies.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Deism, a philosophy often termed "Enlightenment religion," was popular in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in England, France, Germany, and America. Unlike atheism, which denies the existence of God; polytheism, which recognizes the existence of many gods; and pantheism, which sees God in everything; deism recognizes the existence of a supreme being or God as revealed in Nature and perceived by human reason.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Wicca
A polytheistic neo-pagan Nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Gerald Gardner founder of
Gardnerian Wicca, which combined the teachings that he had received from the New Forest coven with additional ideas taken from a number of disparate sources, including Freemasonry, ceremonial magic, mediaeval grimoires and the writings of the occultist Aleister Crowley, a man whom Gardner knew personally.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Golden Dawn, Hermetic Order of the, occult-oriented fraternal organization established by the Freemasons in England (1888), led by S. L. MacGregor Mathers (1854-1917). The order's rituals were derived from writings by Fred Hockley, and members had to demonstrate competence in mysticism. The group influenced authors William B. Yeats and Algernon Blackwood. The most famous member, Aleister Crowley, joined in 1898 and founded the rival Argenteum Astrum (1905) after his expulsion in 1900.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
@sickofcommies Yeh it came from the mary apparitions this very dangerous belife sytem has grow feminists love it.A very left sided agenda they have indeed.The only way to be christian is you need to take out the pagan stuff constantine implimented into it.People get a false view of christianity because they see catholisism as the head when actualy they are pagans.Seems people write their own philosophy and justifications for lack of faith in their own doctrine they are to follow.
korzon 1 year ago
@sickofcommies Look at jefferson he belives in GOD and the Bible just not the parts he doesn't want to belive.This is why i see diests as a accult because they removed what they diddnt agree with and wrote their own doctrine.Same as catholics and anyone else who claims to be their own denomination.For a GOD who wants people to follow Him He sure has a lot of followers who follow themselves.They are all a bunch of hypocrytes so are secularists they have their own lust for power too.
korzon 1 year ago
@korzon: They, like amny, believe that "revealed" religions are a scam. The Deists God they firmly believe can be known from the study of the natural world - "Behold, who is this? He is revealed and illuminated by what his hand has wrought, just as any one of us is known by our works." Good place to go is "w w w (dot) deism (dot) com".
RyuDarragh 1 year ago
Cue the circus music! This is absolute bunk! Please read Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with Adams as well as Thomas Jefferson's letter to Benjamin Rush.
cmsalvagio 1 year ago
Jefferson was a Deist, not an atheist
mikepiazza 1 year ago
@mikepiazza - The operative word in your comment is “was.” Because while Jefferson was President Jefferson, he attended Christian religious services on Sundays held in the Capital Building (so much for that “separation of church and state” hallucination).
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster Well just because Obama attended services in rights church we still know he is a muslim at heart who actualy doesnt even care for muslims either.But yes the founders belived in GOD not that they actualy knew Him but yes they did and obviously when they printed the dollar bill they still did way after the 13 colonies.Athiests cant accept the truth even if a big GOD is on the money they use every day quite pathetic.Not that i agree with freemasons and their belife's.
korzon 1 year ago
@korzon He's actually a new-ager/satanist. His church is rooted in freemasonry. Wright used to be a member of the Nation of Islam which is masonic according to their own writings.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
Do an internet search or internet image search for elijah mohammed freemasonry and see for yourself.
sickofcommies 1 year ago
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romansten9 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The suppression of truth since 1947:
For over 150 years, there was no "Separation of Church and State" as we know it today. Countless examples of the mixing of Church and State were evident to all. Not until the 1947 Supreme Court decision in the case "Everson vs. Board of Education" did the interpretation of the 1st Amendment begin to change.
romansten9 1 year ago
Comment removed
romansten9 1 year ago
“The Congress of the United States RECOMMENDS AND APPROVES THE HOLY BIBLE FOR USE IN ALL SCHOOLS.” 1782
romansten9 1 year ago
So let me get this straight...you, likely a rabid conservative who wants smaller government...you want the government to be involved with your religion?! Well, sir, I hope you get EXACTLY what you want, because the government will fuck up your religion just like it fucks up everything else.
200lbKickboxer 1 year ago
Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820
Machineghosts 1 year ago
Religion should not be injected into politics
Machineghosts 1 year ago
If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists.
OurForcedReality 1 year ago
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
OurForcedReality 1 year ago
The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800
OurForcedReality 1 year ago
the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or knew that such a character existed.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, June 5, 1824
OurForcedReality 1 year ago
I am as tired of your half baked point as I am your presentation of it.
tpro83 1 year ago
@tpro83 - Is this you way of telling me you did not subscribe to my channel?
Should I be sad or delighted?
How about I select "delighted?"
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
'founding fathers believed a belief in God was necessary for proper governance and for proper moral men to govern'.
Article VI of theUS Constitution says clearly: no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
You have a double standard for halucinations and selective reasoning or you don't read things before commenting on them.
Fix that.
pakratmak 1 year ago
Amen it was never written in the Consitution it was only briefly mentioned in a personal letter by Thomas Jefferson.
pangea7777 1 year ago
"Our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry."
— President Thomas Jefferson
Euryponx 1 year ago
@Euryponx - - "Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus." ---Thomas Jefferson
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster they are not mutually exclusive. Neither is this:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— President Thomas Jefferson
Euryponx 1 year ago
@Euryponx - On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster While still very much alive and far from dying, President John Adams said:
"“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”
Euryponx 1 year ago
@Euryponx - do you mean this John Adams:
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." ---John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster ;) Seems the founding father were not too sure themselves, were they.
“Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies.”
Thomas Jefferson
BTW: you do understand this is completely meaningless, don't you? It doesn't matter what any of them said or what the original constitution said. Life shouldn't be based on ancient myths.
Since I'm bored, I'll give you the last word. :)
Euryponx 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster "Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."
No, I think this is the rest of the paragraph you need to get the full quote. Nice try though
cmsalvagio 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster "Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."
Now THAT is the mined quote in context. Says something entirely different eh? What say you? Yaaay
cmsalvagio 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster
UH OH! THAT PROVES IT!
hahaha
You are such an IDIOT!
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster John Adams never believed those words. He only spoke them because he was quoting SOMEONE ELSE. Don't you know that?
John Adams is recalling a conversation between a Parson and a Schoolteacher.
So, that quote of yours means nothing, because he is only telling a story. Adams has a huge number of quotes that show what he really believed.
I can quote an atheist that I don't agree with, doesn't make me an atheist!
romansten9 1 year ago
@Euryponx You have taken John Adams completely out of context. Do you know that? If you simply made a mistake and didn't know better, I can overlook it. If you read the whole paragraph, you will see an opposite meaning. I'll send it to you if you don't believe me. Adams was a very strong believer in God, he wouldn't be so nice if he was here. If not such a gentleman, He would likely slap you around for blatantly misquoting him!
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 Yes please do. But actually it doesn't matter what Adams thought. He doesn't liven anymore and we do. In my opinion the perfect separation is when religion ceases to exist and is regarded like all those other myths about Zeus, Odin and all the other made up gods.
Whenever religion had power it has abused it.
Euryponx 1 year ago
@Euryponx You claim that it doesn't matter what the founders thought, because they aren't alive, but we are. Unfortunately you are wrong. The intent of the authors of the Constitution does matter. Their intent is very clear, even if you take away all of their quotes in which they talked about religion and the church and state being mixed, (and there are MANY) we still have their actions of mixing church and state, we still have the Congressional record and the court records.
romansten9 1 year ago
@Euryponx The founders quotes show overwhelmingly that they supported the mixing of church and state. But don't stop there. Even without the thousands of quotes, we have their actions of mixing church and state often. But don't stop there. We have the Congressional record which proves this. But don't stop there, we have the court records which shows the true feelings of government at the time also. But don't stop there, we have school records and other public records and other documents, etc.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 "Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." John Adam
"I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself." John Adams
It doesn't matter what they thought. We will decide for ourselves.
Euryponx 1 year ago
@romansten9
Ok, you convinced me.
Let's become a Muslim nation.
Hindu? Perhaps CAODAISM?
What is this? I mean really. Who do you Christians think you're fooling? I'm not Christian, and I don't want my state favoring them in any way, or forming laws around strictly Christian beliefs in any way.
No matter how you idiots slice it, separation of church and state is a fact, has always been, and always will be.
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper
You said: "I don't want my state......forming laws around strictly Christian beliefs in any way."
Not in any way huh?
So I guess you think the 10 commandments would be bad for mankind?
Our government and laws have been founded on the Bible. That is a fact of history, and the founding fathers said so in their own words. You can't argue with the truth.
You can believe recent fairy tales about separation. Try researching old history for once. You will learn something.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
I have researched this. In fact, in college, I did a major paper on it going in with your exact viewpoint. I too thought what you thought, but as it turns out, I was wrong.
See, the laws were not formed based on the bible. In fact, the 10 commandments or even any mention of Christ was not even in any courtroom at the start of this nation.
BTW, with the 10 commandments, there's no mention of rape, but having sex with your neighbor's ox? That OBVIOUSLY was more important.
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper
That explains it. You believed the truth until you started "learning" from schools and the media.
You need to read what the founders wrote in their own handwriting. How can you argue against that? You are getting your information from modern sources.
The 3 branches of government are based upon the pattern found in Isaiah 33:22.
The principle of the separation of powers are based upon Jeremiah 17.
The principle of tax exemption for Churches is found in Ezra 7:24.
romansten9 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper Why is there such a clear difference between public school textbooks prior to 1900 and after 1900? Have you ever researched this? God has been deleted from history, and students are now being taught lies, including you.
Why are you defending your teachers that have taught you lies? You should be outraged at them, not defend them.
Go back to the source. Don't trust what anyone tells you, including me.
Research it from the beginning yourself.
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
I literally JUST told you about a paper I did in college, and you're telling me to research it?
Honestly, I cannot believe how big of an argument this is in our country. I've been through this argument before quite a few times now. No matter what you find, there's always something I can find to counter, and vice versa. This argument literally can be endless it seems.
When I researched this, I had to have an open mind. If you do the same, you'll be doing yourself a favor.
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper Ok, you researched this. How do you explain the frequent mixing of church and state in the first 100+ years? Besides the founders actions, how do you explain the actions of the courts when people were punished for breaking Christian laws? And the quotes you may find are very small in number compared to the vast number of pro-religious quotes. Not even close.
Th revised textbooks?
Why are court cases being won with this evidence, and bibles being put back in schools?
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
There wasn't, actually. Courtrooms didn't even display the ten commandments.
Now show me where someone was punished for worshiping a different God than the Christian God... I mean this is the FIRST commandment after all.
The fact is, the banishment of Catholicism in many of the early colonies played a BIG role in the motivation behind separation of church and state.
We can take a lesson from them when looking at people who want to outlaw entire ethnic groups of today.
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@romansten9
Don't you see what's happening here? What you're convinced of? Look at what the Catholic church had just done to Europe. Look at what religion is possible of doing to society. The founding fathers understood this completely! Then the country STILL gave Christianity too much. One nation under God? In God we Trust? The impact was even greater during the red scare.
One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. This is America. This is where we should go back to.
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper - What do you want to bet that @romansten9, and the author of this video are fans of liar for Jesus, David Barton? LoL!
TheCodedAtheist 1 year ago
@romansten9
American law is not based on the Ten Commandments, and the Ten Commandments haven't played any special role in our history.
The Founding Fathers in fact made it clear that Roman law and English common law were the basis of American law, and our Founders also refuted the claim that either Christianity or the Ten Commandments were the basis of English common law.
Modern historical analysis PROVES this.
Your twisting of history for an underlying agenda has got to stop!
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper Church services were held in the U.S. Capitol building, and founding fathers of the U.S. attended church there. This continued for many years. How do you explain the fact that this was permitted, if there was a "separation of church and state" ?
romansten9 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper Why was the Bible taught in public schools if there is a "separation of church and state" ?
romansten9 1 year ago
@LoryLandskipper Why did the U.S. Supreme court say that the U.S is a Christian nation? Why did the court also say this:
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. (Jesus) It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S. 1892
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9
That doesn't PROVE the nation was founded on strictly Christian principals. In fact, it wasn't too long prior that they started putting "in God we trust" on our money because during this time, Christianity was on a major rise. Where do you think Fundamentalism came from? What era do you think that rose up out of?
LoryLandskipper 1 year ago
@Euryponx You said that John Adams said:
"“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”
John Adams is recalling a conversation between a Parson and a Schoolteacher At one point, the Parson said: .......Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!'
John Adams never said or believed what you said he did, he was telling a story
romansten9 1 year ago
@romansten9 OK. "Although the detail of the formation of the American governments (...) It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." This also out of context?
Euryponx 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster
Jefferson admired Jesus's teachings, but never believed he was the son of god. Ever hear of the Jefferson Bible?
AmericanNohbuddy 1 year ago
@AmericanNohbuddy After reading some of jeffersons writings I don't think it can even be said that he had any respect for jesus' 'teachings'. I think he'd have been happier not having christianity at all, which is to be expected from any reasonable person.
humanistheart 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The first part that you read is what most people are refferring to when they use the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." More specifically, it refers to religious test being a requirement for govt officals. The "phrase" itself is not "written" in the Constitution, but the "phrase" is summary and describes the 1st Amend very well and is accurate! Govt cannot be religious in orientation, force it on others, nor prevent personal practice, THUS the phrase, "SEPERATION" of Church and State!
JerryO4269 1 year ago
The first part that you read is what most people are refferring to when they use the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." More specifically, it refers to religious test being a requirement for govt officals. The "phrase" itself is not "written" in the Constitution, but the "phrase" is summary and describes the 1st Amend very well and is accurate! Govt cannot be religious in orientation, force it on others, nor prevent personal practice, THUS the phrase, "SEPERATION" of Church and State!
JerryO4269 1 year ago
Christian's by all means do practice your dark age tribal rituals, but YOU should have NO say about law, none whatsoever. It's doesn't matter how many tantrums you have; YOUR religious convictions should NOT be pushed on the rest of the world. If you want to live in the first world and enjoy all the things that the age of reason gives you, then check your bronze age mentality at the door.
MarilynFilth 1 year ago
After all the lofty talk of God and religion. They picked up their guns and murdered Native Americans.So why give a good shit what they said or wrote. I can think for myself,can you?.
smilingheathen 1 year ago
PropagandaBuster
Read Article 6 of the Constitution. The Constitution is the highest law of the United States, not the bible. Attempting to prevent or punish anyone for not bowing to religion from participating in or being part of this country is forbiden by this Article as well.
The term "their creator" used at the Constitution's begining could refer to any number of higher beings, and is not present in the Articles or Amendments that serve as and describes this country's law structure.
Zunile03scape 1 year ago
Hmm, yes the bible was in the schools, and slaves were in the fields, you want to bring that back too?
If you believe in the bible, then you also believe in slavery, its endorsed by the bible.
If you want to have christianity in schools, then you must also have islam, judaism, hinduism, buddhism, need I keep going?
l337pwnage 1 year ago
thou shall not bear false witness. follow what you believe sir. don't pick and choose.
nicenhower 1 year ago
btw. nice lisp
braydenbeautiful 1 year ago
You're a Fucking retard
braydenbeautiful 1 year ago
Nothing like advocating for a theocracy. "The United States of Saudi Arabia."
The separation of church and state is to preserve both the church and the state. And to what "god" is America suppose to be rooting for if it were the theocratic nation that is suggested here.
biped19 1 year ago
As much as I support you Mr. PropagandaBuster.
You don't have my support here.
SturmKorps 1 year ago
@SturmKorps: No problem. This earth would be one boring joint if we all agreed on everything. Disagreement is healthy.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster Thomas jefforson described it as a wall of seperation between chrurch and state and he of course had a huge part in writing the constitution, so yes the seperation is there allthough it may not be called exactly that the writers were secularist and there writing reflects on this.
MrAdmiralAwesomeness 1 year ago
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - Really? How did Thomas Jefferson have a huge part in writing the constitution when there was no Internet? I ask that because at the time of the Constitutional Convention, Thomas Jefferson was in France.
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster - A few days after Jefferson wrote that letter with "separation of church and state," he attended religious services in the Capital Building, while others attended religious services in the Treasury and Supreme Court buildings. Did Thomas Jefferson violate his own "separation of church and state?" Hmmmm?
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster wow i guess your right but like it or not this is a nation founded partly on secularist ideas so the goverment would remain neutral when it comes to religion not wanting any religion to be favored amoung others. The treaty of tripoli states the nation isnt based on christanity and yes they were not all atheist most were deist.
MrAdmiralAwesomeness 1 year ago
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - Correct, we are a secular nation, and I would not want to change that. However we were founded by men rooted in Christian principles who had no problem with the display of religion in the public square.
Part of George Washington's Farewell address, 1796:
"Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster George washington was christian however most historians agree that Jefferson Paine Madison and Franklin were deist like many other men of that time.
MrAdmiralAwesomeness 1 year ago
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - You mean most historians of the last 30 years. However historian of the 204 years prior knew they were Christians. Does this read like a deist to you:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson
June 13, 1814,Thomas Jefferson asked, "whence arises the morality of the atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such being exists."
PropagandaBuster 1 year ago
@PropagandaBuster Please do explain the jefferson bible.
MrAdmiralAwesomeness 1 year ago
@MrAdmiralAwesomeness - President Jefferson was truly a Renaissance man who continued to develop at each stage in his life. In re