White Phosphorus in Gaza and "Inherent Difficulties" (Reply to SLC 1/2)

[steute2011]

The argument here seems to be that Hamas acted illegally and that therefore justifies the IDF acting illegally.? What I have never understood is why the air campaign? It's not like the Palestinians had any air defenses, tanks or artillery pieces. If you were trying to minimize civilian casualties, then the correct option would have been a ground invasion, were you would be able to eyeball your targets, instead of bombing a hospital with 200 civilians and maybe 5 or 10 combatants.

[tarrasque420]

Great white phosphorus is noting more then a smoke screen that can burn human tissue right down to the bone.

[yairbe5]

So basecly Israel can't really be blamed for using illegal methods so long as it's doing it to counter Hamas's illegal methods?

[oc00011]

@yairbe5 no. i think the core argument in this is the fact that israel's efforts in minimizing civilian casualties e.g. weapons technology that avoids civilian casualty etc. shouldn't be ignored. & that in extreme cases such as the scenarios of having ur civilians *targeted* by hamas with rockets, there's only so much u can do in response. & weighing all the options sometimes leads to a decision u'd hate to follow through with. ask urself what efforts in ethical consideration palestinians use.

[SLCThunk]

Also, about WP -- my point was not that they used it in a residential area, it was that they used it indiscriminately. They were not using it in any fashion that amounts to protecting themselves from militants as opposed to raining it down on neighborhoods indiscriminately.

The same applies to the mortar fire allegation I brought up -- neither examples of Israel addressing "difficulties of war," both examples of Israel ignoring such difficulties and opting for indiscriminate, "reckless" attack

[mbrown0315]

How exactly was it determined that they were not using it to protect themselves from militants? Is there a special way that white phosphorus is distributed among an area that suggests it was used in a certain way? Just saying it was "littered all over the area" doesn't mean it was used indiscriminately in an effort to target civilians.

I address the mortar allegation in part 2.

[SLCThunk]

It was dropped aerially & to quote Amnesty: Donatella Rovera, Amnestys researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories said that such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. "Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime,"

^^^They weren't using it tactically

[mbrown0315]

How else do you deliver white phosphorus? I know you can fire it as an artillery shell. That doesn't seem much more palatable. Donatella Rovera is saying "don't fight."

[SLCThunk]

Well then, she's come to the same conclusion as the rest of the world, good for her.

[mbrown0315]

I never said my views were popular, I only said they were right.

Though to be fair, I think much of the rest of the world (not sure if that includes you) does recognize, at the end of the day, that things would be much better if Hamas (or preferably another group altogether) would show a more active interest in a two-state settlement. If it's a majority of the world that thinks Israel would insist on blockading the Gaza Strip even as the government there is serious about peace, I give up.

[SLCThunk]

I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but I don't think Israel is serious about peace.

[mbrown0315]

Okay.

[SLCThunk]

Have my complaints about this vid; do not care to get into a real back-and-forth. But quickly:

While lots of evidence of Hamas commandeering medical vehicles, you provided no link, no substantiation, nowhere to look, other than a video with subtitles saying "it is suspected" & a liveleak clip. The thing that persuaded me otherwise was the fact that Amnesty investigated, found no real evidence, and the fact that in the past the UN has demanded apologies for similar (baseless) allegations.

[SLCThunk]

*While suggesting lots...

[mbrown0315]

The video with "it is suspected" later reveals that there was a bomb belt stored in the ambulance's stretcher. I showed this part. The point is not the videos I presented (which were intended as illustration...though I find it odd how quick you are to write them off), but rather the quote that precedes them. I provide a quote in which a Hamas commander articulates something that is already well-known: Hamas uses the civilian infrastructure.

[mbrown0315]

Based on this, I found it to be unusual that you were so quick to write off the allegations of Hamas using Shifa Hospital as a base of allegations. I'm aware that there are claims that Hamas didn't use ambulances in Gaza (which I find suspicious), but I was unaware that Amnesty had come out and denied that Hamas was using Shifa hospital. Any documentation of that claim? I'm genuinely interested.

[SLCThunk]

First vid, links in the side bar. I specifically posted the Amnesty doc for that sake. It's in the Amnesty Investigation vs Israeli Investigation link.

[mbrown0315]

Ah okay, I see. Well, my guess is that the IDF will provide substantiation for this claim in the report it's about to release, since I believe the Goldstone Report also expresses this skepticism.

[SLCThunk]

The fact that you would trust an IDF report as a reliable source is alarming, especially considering they are the ones to make the allegation. Israel making false accusations such as these about Palestinian med systems to justify shooting them or stopping them has a long tradition

[mbrown0315]

Wait, I'm confused. Amnesty demands evidence. If the IDF brings evidence, it's not to be trusted?

Meanwhile, human rights organizations, government agencies, and concerned citizens of the world such as yourself are fine with figures put out by the Palestinian Ministry of Health and the questionable testimonies of bystanders who are constantly pressured to tailor their statements to fit the government's agenda. I'm sure you noticed this in the CNN clip in the beginning of this video.

[mbrown0315]

I talk about this more in my videos on Palestinian Disinformation, in which I mention a guy named Khaled Abu Toameh, who used to work in Palestinian information services. He describes how manipulated the whole operation is. He also talks about how testimonies given to news agencies and human rights organizations are often manipulated by government-employed translators. Furthermore, he talks about the issue of intimidation, where witnesses fear reprisal for incriminating Hamas.

[mbrown0315]

This was the case with several of the witnesses of the Al-Fakhura school incident.

But never mind all that. Don't trust the IDF, even if it provides photo and video evidence in its response to the Goldstone Report.

[SLCThunk]

The translation issue is about as much of an issue as the fact that PMW, MEMRI and other Israeli media efforts usually involve incredibly poor translating. It is not enough to change facts and it does not take away the neutrality of other observers who may use their translations

[mbrown0315]

I know people who work for MEMRI; I don't see the merit in this point. If you want, get an Arabic-speaking friend to check the translations in the videos I post. I made sure to do this when I posted those two videos in my PLO video.

You've basically just said "nah-uh" to my point about government-employed translators while dismissing the evidence I bring. I'll consider the matter closed.

[SLCThunk]

Not what I am saying. If the IDF wants to present evidence, let them. I'm alarmed by the fact that when the party accused, whose past allegations are consistently at odds with those found by outsiders, you're trusting that their claims will be genuine.

[mbrown0315]

This ties into what I said about questionable translations and testimonies tailored to suit government agendas (which don't receive the same scrutiny that people, rightly or wrongly, apply to the IDF). Anyway, if the IDF presents photo and video evidence (as it says it will), it'll be hard to argue with.

[SLCThunk]

I've read about that clip. That was a single incident in the West Bank (not Gaza). Not only did it happen long after Israel had began searching & impeding ambulances, it was also a particularly strange incident, being that the ambulance did not get stopped and when it finally was, international media simply happened to be present as the belt was exposed.

In any case, single incidents do not translate to reasonable suspicion.

[mbrown0315]

Why mention the geography? Does Hamas not operate in the West Bank? It was not the only incident, and I can provide evidence. But first, please provide evidence for what you're saying here.

[SLCThunk]

Well as far as whether or not it provides reasonable suspicion, you can only name remote incidents and allegations so that's pretty much set.

As far as where I learned that about that incident it's in Beyond Chutzpah by Finkelstein, I don't know where online you can verify it.

[mbrown0315]

Ah, Finkelstein. Of course. Not impressed at all. Did a search for what you're talking about. Found nothing. I find this claim that a lot of international media were there to be interesting, since I could find the video only from two sources, and it was the same grainy version with really bad video quality and awkward font. No media logo, either.

[SLCThunk]

Like I said it's not on the interwebz, it's in a book and it's actually documented unlike the craptastic scholarship he was criticizing. Saying you're not impressed by Fink doesn't mean he's mistaken.

[mbrown0315]

Right, but when it comes to Finkelstein, his writings are all over the Google. Google Books, for example.

Saying I'm not impressed by Finkelstein does imply, however, that I think he's often mistaken. Take the beginning of my PLO video, for example.

I like his accent, though.