Myth-Busted: Flawed Free Energy from power lines experiment

[jyandow]

They've already generated more than that with broadband antenna designs printed on regular sheet paper. They have no understanding of impedance matching or how to tune a circuit. If you're specifically going to try to pull 60hz off a powergrid TRANSFORMER, you should tune the receiver to that frequency. Farms usually have their own transformers. I don't see where this thing is even grounded? It's not free energy, a wide frequency range of EM is beamed all over developed countries nowadays.

[LOPEZdJUNGLIST]

ginger cunt

[cjoIIProductionz]

maybe if they tested it on something else like maybe a 500,000 volt powerline, but thatd be too dangerous because putting a coil that close the electricity would probably ark over and blow it up

[8earthchild8]

@cjoIIProductionz If energy lost from powerlines could be effectively recovered that way, the power companies would do it themselves.

[cjoIIProductionz]

@8earthchild8 My brothers a arbor so he deals with cutting trees down near the power lines etc. and down in Tennessee he said there was a guy who figured out how to use an orb near the power line to gather power and power his house

[8earthchild8]

@cjoIIProductionz You'd need more than an "orb". And it would NOT be free energy. You still have to burn stuff, catch sunlight, turn a generator, etc. FREE energy does not and cannot exist.

[bcoulal]

Really???? Come on Myth Busters, who are you really working for, the oil companies? Did you even bother to think about putting in a tuning circuit to tune into the frequency that's coming out of the power lines? No you didn't. Taking radio waves and turning it into electrical energy requires a circuit. LOOK AT the CRYSTAL RADIO concept. lol.

[Bosonic18]

on anything important these guys seem to work more as disinformation...kinda sad

[8earthchild8]

@bcoulal Yeah, because it's the OIL companies trying to surpress dumb ideas that don't work. If you were to run your coil parallel to the power lines, you'd need a pretty long coil just to charge your car battery. It's weird that people with wacky beliefs need this defense mechanism where they can pretend anyone providing evidence that contradicts thos beliefs works for some sinister organisation trying to surpress the truth about magic.

[gconol]

lol, Mythbusters.... I stopped watching their show when they can't even replicate a simple Bedini motor. They even have a guy from MIT to build it for them. For some reason, they neglected to put magnets on the motor which is a key ingredient of bedini motor design, in fact, all motors have em. If they're gonna bust something, at least do a good job doing it.

[8earthchild8]

@gconol I lost respect for them when they even BOTHERED to bust a Bedini motor. It's utter uselessness and its comprehensive failuer EVERY time it's been tested under NON-biased conditions mean that it busts itself

[8earthchild8]

@gconol It's just an antenna to create electrical energy from the earths magnetic field. Thats so NOT free it ain't funny. It has a whole planet putting energy into it and the return is insignificant

[reviathon360]

You could wrap wire around the HV transformer to pick up stray current. 

[sabotoged]

-Nor to make it mobile. Along similar lines, Nokia fairly recently developed a prototype, (as in, highly unlikely to ever be commercially available) phone that can be operated by ambient radiation in the atmosphere. Specifically, radio waves which we are bombarded with every day. Does this technology degrade the original signals? I strongly suspect it does. I don't see how it couldn't. So I don't see this, or siphoning energy from power lines as a viable means of getting electricity.

[sabotoged]

Listen up you guys. These guys are NOT scientists. They are engineers. Creative, crafty engineers, but that's all. Their conclusions are FREQUENTLY flawed and speculative. You CAN siphon electricity off of power lines, however it is 1. Illegal. 2. Virtually impossible to accomplish without being discovered. And 3. Highly dangerous. Also, you have to have the exact correct equipment and measurements, which is basically a huge copper coil. -Not very easy to hide one of those.

[NoMoreVanilla]

@sabotoged Neither of these guys is an engineer. An electrical engineer would, as you suggest, at least have made an attempt at constructing a tuned coil. Of course, tuning it for 60Hz means it would be HUGE. An engineer would also have matched the impedance of the load to the coil and measured the power, not the voltage, delivered to the load. The "farmer's whole house" myth is truly a myth, but the Mythbusters experiment was pathetic.

[8earthchild8]

@sabotoged Yeah, but when people say "free" energy, they don't mean that it costs no money. They mean more energy is beig rtaken out than put in. That's not the case if you just steal some off a power line. Just because it's not YOU putting the energy in, doesn't make it free.

[sabotoged]

@8earthchild8 - I never said that it was.

[8earthchild8]

@sabotoged No, but a lot of people are confused by that. At least now, they can read my comment, ignore it, and say I work for the government and am trying to suppress magic.



[sabotoged]

@8earthchild8 - lol. Magic hater.

[AcapulcoRenard]

Lets not be fooled, they the mythbusters so they bust myth not reality !! Get it?

[jrubbernek]

this video was probably made by greedy people who runs the oil industry. to keep people from getting free energy. seriously guys, even water should be free and yet somehow these FUCKERS are making us pay for clean healthy water. and how? through videos like this. so there..

[Serostern]

@jrubbernek To keep people from free energy?

Sure, waste your money on phony devices. But don't lie to us and say they work.

[nos676]

@jrubbernek healthy water? fuck off, they are making people pay for water with their waste products in it (ie chlorine which is a by product of petrol manufacturing) at least in australia they do

[Moneymax3001]

A roll of chainlink fence in the back of a pickup truck parked within an electrical transfer station where we were replacing fence. Went to grab the roll out of the back of the truck only to receive a high-voltage shock. I also see no reason except maybe for showmanship to have raised a camera with the measuring equipment above the ground, Another idea did you hook one end of the (coil) to an earth ground? Once you decide to do the experiment properly, measure voltage, amps (under load) and watt

[crustnugget1]

i did some concrete work under power lines and every time i would touch something metal it would shock the crap out of you. or get a drink of water out of the cooler and it would shock your teeth. it sucked

[saveenergytechnol]

What a lie

[coldarc]

science say you cant create energy out of nothing. thats not the problem.

science also say you cant get more out than you put in a closed system.

the problem is there is no such thing as a closed system. energy is always transformed no matter how you hard you try to isolate it, so its damn hard not to convert energy form outside in a so called closed system.

[buchananfibbing]

Free energy is finaly here!But there are very powerfull forces that want to supress the technology,Get a motor that needs no gas or electric input at LT-MAGNET-MOTORdotCOM ,Be a part of the energy revolution!

[solarpanels3]

run the wire parallel with power lines

[coldarc]

@solarpanels3 that doesn´t really matter. you have to use a tesla receiver for it to work. look at teslas wireless electricity receiver patent to figure out how it works.

google it. search for johnbedini radiant

[benjwgarner]

@tsport100 It's not free energy! It gets its energy from fusion in the sun (which will run out in about 5 billion years).

[coldarc]

@benjwgarner fusion in the sun? why do you believe that? it wasn´t long ago they believed the stars where nuclear fission reactors. for every new theory the explenation of how the sun and stars are powered change. nobody have eny evidence that the sun have a fusion reaction inside it. that assumtion is ad-hoc to the heat output of the suns light. in fact the sun is as cold as a freezer inside. it produces violent electric discharges that you see as hot plasma shooting out of it.

[benjwgarner]

@coldarc I think that fusion powers the sum because of various peices of scientific evidence. For instance, electric discharges don't produce such high intensities of gamma or x-rays, not to mention neutrinos, which the sun spews out quite quickly. I challenge you to cite me some scientific evidence by credible scientists which demonstrates the possibility of the sun being cold and driven by electric discharges.

[acidx0]

they are retarded , its insulated wire. maybe they want people to get mad at the fact that they are idiots.

[Tobacc0]

@offamychain

The "Free" tag is a slur. Tesla's idea was based on tuning into the frequency and constructively interfering with the cosmic energy wave that continually washes over us. His concept was only as free as a sailing ship moves for free. And to a primitive standing on the shore, watching a 50 ton ship sail against the wind would look like magic.

[valveman12]

Free energy is a myth. Free energy followers believe that you get free energy from the vaccum, ather, zero point energy. Wind power or solar energy is not included in the "purists" idea of free energy. Only the Hillbilly Scientists believe this is possible. No one to date has been able to successfully prove the existence of a purely free energy device.

[coldarc]

@valveman12 where do you think the energy form wind and solar is comming from in the first place? don´t tell me its form gravity. whell in a sense it is, but not form its

force. particles consists of waves of energy. this energy is transformed into wind

and light. i don´t believe in the big bang since i can´t understand why everything in the universe is not one giant gravitational blob of super dense matter.

[benjwgarner]

@coldarc If you "don´t believe in the big bang since [you] can´t understand why" something happens, then maybe you should study it some more, take an astrophysics class (which I have :D), or quit commenting on complex scientific issues. Science is about searching for truth, not what you believe or what you do or do not understand.

[coldarc]

@benjwgarner you don´t understand gravity. do you know how a microwave works?

what happens when high voltage electric currents of hight electric resistance

runs into materials of low electric resistance. it heats up and form magnetic field effects. what happend when you send high voltage currents trough magnetic plasma. it emits higher frequencies. what happend when currents of the sun emits low frequencey waves toward earth. it ionize the upper atmosphere.

[coldarc]

@benjwgarner i don´t think you understand. for every theory there is a hypotesis, enything hypothetical is a belief. that is used together with somthing repeatable to make a theory. its also called ad-hoc science but that what science is enyway.

don´t think you know somthing because of som guys with big mouth telling you.

i don´t belive in the big bang because its hypothetical form of belief is taken out of thin air. its the interpretation of data that i have a problem with.

[coldarc]

@benjwgarner there is no need for nuclear interpretation of waves since many causes can create equal effects. when the sun hit earth with higher frequencies it create interference with charged low density high electric resistance plasma of earth

and you get turbulence. weather. no need for quantifiable particles to hit the planet to explain the auroras. your swisschese brain is all hooked up with the unpredicatable geothermal nuclear universe. you dont know what a particle is.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc ok, your comment here makes no sense. what is a "Nuclear interpretation of waves?" and buddy, auroras are caused by cosmic radiation from space i.e. particles like high-speed muons and protons, so I have no idea what you're talking about. and wtf is a geothermal nuclear universe? is English not your primary language or something?

[coldarc]

@iHeartElectricalEng english is my secondary language. i know what protons are made of. if there exist muons they must obay same rule. electromagnetic waves are force gradients that change in amplitude. a change in amplitude is force times distance, and thats what energy is. particles are formed when some of the energy in certain directions is canceled out. conventional science is backward. particles are energy of waves in finite circumferences. its like a hologram.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc muons do exist, and they're heavy cousins of the electron, not the proton. What you're saying makes no sense, what is that even from? some twisted version of string theory? no one knows for sure exactly what fundamental particles are made of so where exactly are you getting your information. What are your sources, because what you're saying sounds like gibberish.

[coldarc]

@iHeartElectricalEng all particles are the same. they are at various sizes but follow the same principle. what i talk about is standing waves. standing waves are particles made of waves of energy. they have an out wave and an in wave all of them. the out wave increase in wavelenght with distance and the in wave decrease in wavelenght perpendicular to the out wave. that means the two waves are out of phase and is gravity. all particles phase conjugate. bigger particles are made of smaller ones.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc you are guessing, plain and simple. You are completely making things up as you go along and there is no scientific evidence TO DATE to support anything that you're saying. Elementary particles aren't made of smaller particles. Protons and neutrons are made of quarks because protons and neutrons are hadrons, not elementary particles.

[coldarc]

@iHeartElectricalEng the universe is fractal. a cloud of smaller particles makes up one big particle that is an individual inside a cloud of particles at its size. the really large particles in the universe is planets stars and the galactic center. they are part of even bigger particles that are part of bigger than that again into infinity. particles exist as infinitely small to infinitely big.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc no, the universe is not fractal, though it's a nice thought. elementary particles make up complex particles like hadrons and mesons and those make up atoms which make up molecules which make up planets which make up solar systems which make up galaxies and that's as big as it gets because beyond that there is no other unifying force

there are FOUR forces in the universe : Strong and weak nuclear forces, electromagnetic force, and gravity. These forces are caused by bosons. RTFM.

[coldarc]

@iHeartElectricalEng you don´t seem to get it its the wave form that makes up gravity. they are also called scalar electromagnetic waves. strong and weak forces are forces that science made up. they are not real forces. they are mathematical models to describe observations of effects and not causes. the electromagnetic force is actually to forces of gravity. many particles together make one big particle that have the same wave form as the smaller ones but on a bigger scale.

[coldarc]

@iHeartElectricalEng im not making thing out of thin air.

the universe is fractal its just much more complex than the mandelbrot set. actually its a hologram, but the way the hologram works is fractal.

have you ever heard about ufos and antigravity. antigravity is gravity at a scale.

its a standing wave. the center of that standing wave is a particle and have spin.

if gravity is what you think it is, interstellar travel is impossible. the rings around saturn are where gravity phase conjugate.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc and no, particles are particles. Planets are not particles and neither are the marbles in my closet. You need to buy a physics text book and make an attempt to read it and stop making up nonsense.

At the center of a galaxy is a quasar or a super-giant black hole, not some magical particle.

[coldarc]

@iHeartElectricalEng you need to stop beeing so uncritical and lazy about what you read in physics literature. if you just acept and believe in all of it as a fact your no better than a priest worshipping bible verses. there are sources of information about all of what i speak of. do your own research. you knowledge apear to be extremely filtered, its like you only know what some very powerful people in high places in science want you to know. and stop believing in imaginary black holes.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc if you're trying to dispute what's in my physics textbook, then I'm sorry but you're wrong. There is a reason it's seen as fact, coldarc, and that reason is because it has been observed and closely examined by many, many people. We don't things up in science, we observe what is there. And what is this "powerful people in high places" crap? That isn't how science works. There is no conspiracy here, you're just wrong. period. Maybe you're just uneducated, I don't know.

[obsidian231]

@iHeartElectricalEng Textbooks get changed all the time. Einstein is wrong on some things but do they get changed? nope not yet but they will in time.

[iHeartElectricalEng]

@coldarc and I don't "believe" in black holes; I KNOW they are there because they have been observed. We know how they form and we know the mechanics behind them. YOU are the one talking about fractal universe nonsense and believing things are they way you want them to be. So sorry, but no. And since it's obvious that you aren't going to learn anything, I'm just going to ignore your comments from now on. Try reading a book or an article at least that wasn't written by someone in their garage.

[wrjcu]

@offamychain what inspires people to make comments like these other then being threatened.

Tesla's work made it possible for you to make your comment. Laws are voided by exotic material, thermodynamics laws are isolated examinations of outdated experiments a free energy device doesn't have to break them to work. It simply has to tap into a source that isn't able to be metered. What has been disproved of Tesla's and by whom? Tesla's work was derailed like many others trying to help people be free

[nessnes64]

you did the coil wrong it should be copper wire in COILS not insulated wire thats the point the uninsulated wire passes the current to the wire touching it

[1crazyfocker]

@nessnes64 do you know science at all. if you have an un insulated wire in a coil it will not induce electricity because it will be shorted out. You do realize that it does not matter what the wire is made of right, the efficancy between copper, to aluminum to steel is so small that it only matters when running long distances. and that and metal wire that is INSULATED in a coil will induce electricity in a magnetic field. cont

[1crazyfocker]

@nessnes64 cont

that the current does not just magicly "passes" from the powerline to the coil. the power line having an AC current "flowing" in it creates a magnetic field around the cables, and since its AC the magnetic fiels is in flux (switching north and south) and that the coil being in the moveing magnetic field (the flux) the field induces an electric current in the coil. and finaly all coils are insulated just most have a very thin clear coat, so you can fit more wire in a space.

[nessnes64]

@1crazyfocker noes noes noes, i meant; the insulated wire wasnt touching the next coiled wire therefore it wasnt working due to some shit

[1crazyfocker]

@nessnes64 wow so you dont know science or how electicty works. everything is explained plain and simple. take the time read up on electromagnetic induction, electromagnet, lenz law, and basic electricty. your profile says 26 years old, but you are comeing off as a 14 year old, that has no idea how any of that works

[nessnes64]

@1crazyfocker 1.i made this account when i was 11 i couldnt say my real age, im 13 now

2.Wow, electicty, crazy shit that electicty

3.i have been interested in electricity for ages, all that resistance and voltage shit

4.i know what fucking electromagnetic induction is, im just not a fucking genius like you surely are(n't) who can explain all the technical shit

5.I was saying that the INSULATION between the WIRES was STOPPING the electicty from doing some crazy shit

Now go back to mommy and cry

[1crazyfocker]

@nessnes64 HA HA HA i love it, you think that your uneducated word affect me..all you kids think that. and as they say, "I think she protest too much" so let me say, I am sorry did not mean to make you cry. but damn I am good i guessed 14 and your 13..lol, and no you dont fully understand it. instead your tobusy just trying to troll. and when you spend your time "name calling" "insulting""or what ever" you just show your "AGE" the point is that you made an uneducated comment(s). and still worng

[nessnes64]

@1crazyfocker FALE OVERLOAD

this message will self destruct when you LEARN TO SPELL

[1crazyfocker]

@nessnes64 so what i have typeo's most ppl do, big deal. the point is this. grow up. i was letting you know some facts, but is shows a lot about your generation, when proven wrong you think name calling some how makes your better? I bet you make fun of those that make all A's dont yeah. it just show how you will be serving me fries in about 5 years. plain and simple the insulation did not make any differance and you dont what you are talking about. so this is done until u pass the 4th grade

[nessnes64]

@1crazyfocker i dont serve garbage

[1crazyfocker]

@nessnes64 see my point is made, thank you for proving it. just keep trying to troll you fail at that too, but in all honesty i would be more worried about everyone reading what you posted, and how hmmmm what word to use "ignorent" you come off sounding when it comes to 4th grade level science. the same thing that my 9 year old and teach you. simple science true it dont use such tech terms as "some crazy shit" but i think if you get your mom to read it to you, you might be able to understand it

[UnderManlac]

@nessnes64 Nope. You got it totally wrong dude. "you did the coil wrong it should be copper wire in COILS not insulated wire thats the point the uninsulated wire passes the current to the wire touching it" That would cause a short circuit, making the coil ineffective. Even in a transformer the coils of wire are thinly insulated in order to prevent a short circuit.

It didn't work because the electro-magnetic field from the power lines is not strong enough to do it.

[PonyHaven]

More energy would have been harvested if the MythBusters had tuned their coil to the 50 or 60Hz frequency of the transmission lines.

Further, the pickup coil needs to be placed below only 1 of the lines.

Placing it directly under the group of lines will subject it to the additive / subtractive effect of the 3 phase magnetic fields - which will negate the results of the experiment.

MythBusters - Busted ;) .

[centers46]

I agree, these guys don't know what they are doing. Have they ever heard of a spark gap transmitter / receiver. It's all about tuning the circuit.

[mythros1]

free electricity exist, they are not testing free electricity though. they are testing over unity to somehow disprove free electricity. the myth busters are retarded.

solar power is free, wind power, current and wave power, etc

[shaoran1026]

solar power is free... yeah right... how large of a solar cell do you need to power a house? how much do you need to actually buy the solar cell?

[shaoran1026]

wind power? how much power is generated by a single wind turbine anyway? wind turbines are built high, and in large open areas for a reason. you need several hundred to generate enough power for a city. the space needed is very wasteful if you ask me.

[mythros1]

so plant crops there.. i said various examples of free energy. it cost nothing to produce after the initial set up except for maintenance cost which would be expected even from a over unity machine. if you dont like the answer sorry, but its a truthful statment.

[UTubeFreeMind]

@shaoran1026

you can always graze moocows and sheep under it...you could even integrated low growth agroforestry..so you have 3 landuses....wind turbines are lame for no wind areas though.....the irony here is that the radiant energy tht is everywhere at all times is far easier to tap into as proven by many inventors at the turn of the century.remember when people actually invented stuff for people and not corporations and the military...New World Order is not cool, sames as mythbuster bushlit

[Careica]

Where I can get WHOLE serie of this? Name of this serie?

[alvaradokids]

HUMANS ARE GETTING DUMMMER AND DUMMER: TOTALLY PLAUSEIBLE :) thanks mythbusters

free energy is all around us...BAGHDAD battery(if those guys did it 5000 years ago wat up wit you)

TESLA pulled energy from the atmosphere and wanted to beam it to your car and home and all for free disprove thea busters WHOSE POCKET R U IN?

[frankensteinmoneymac]

What the hell dude??? You really dont know what you are talking about! the bagdad battery ,amazing as it was for its time, was just a simple chemical battery that would wear out just like any other chemical battery! Tesla did want to make the world wireless, but this invention had nothing to do with free energy. He did invent a 'Radient Energy' antenna...but it did not generate much if any more than any other Earth Antenna would (in other words very little). Anything else is speculation.

[obsidian231]

@frankensteinmoneymac tesla proved you could send large amounts of electricity long distances with out any loss and at 291,000 miles per hr. before you comment look up eric dollard on google or youtube first. this myth mythbusters did was done wrong you cannot collect energy the way they did it. but of coarse why would they show the correct way so millions can steal power? just think about it. basics in electricity would explain exactly how to do it. It's not free but free for me you could say.

[frankensteinmoneymac]

@obsidian231 Yes, but sending electricity long distances is not the same as free energy, which was the point I was critiquing. Still I may have been a bit harsh, on Tesla.If anyone could figure out how to get free energy then it would be him! I do realize that there are RUMORS that he did, but I have yet to come across anything that could come close to verifying that, other than speculation. I will check out Dollard. Does he make proof of concept devices, or just talk? Im more imp.W/former.

[1crazyfocker]

@frankensteinmoneymac yeah but most of those rumors come from ppl that dont understand his work, he used wireless transmission of power(he used power from a normal generator or what ever then transmitted it thru the "air") he then used a device to retreave some of that power but he used like 100000 watts to get .1 watts back he thought everyone should be able to tap into that transmitted power, thus "free energy" but nothing free about it. He did make it work too, ppl saw this said free energy

[frankensteinmoneymac]

@1crazyfocker Quite true....it wasn't so much free, as it was just incredibly hard to regulate. I like that you put air into quotes.....that he meant to send it through the air was a bit of a misconception that I even read in various science articles. If you read his actual words, and the magazine articles describing it at the time, it would be more accurate to say that he sent it through the earth. He did invent wireless electricity, that you could use in your home based on induction though.

[nicagoro]

the original patents include capacitors and diodes; where are these components in their myth-busted?

[webovisionca]

after I saw their hho experiment I don;t believe anything they say anymore. Do the experiments for yourselves instead to find out the truth.

[AdminOnDuty]

LOL, just goes to show you can take the coil to the powerlines but you can't make 'em drink - rofl, what a joke of an exercise (and waste of money to boot). Too bad they didn't get a real engineer involved to help them get a tuned inductor.

I think it would have been more fun to see them run around with 4' Fluorescent tubes in their hands at night :D

Yep this confirms what I kinda thought b4 - the busters are busted. (BTW, how large is a mag field for PG&E's Path 15 500KV Line?)

[AdminOnDuty]

Oh, and these silly boys have no clue regarding PVC HV charge and skin effect conduction at high frequencies (and voltage). PVC is great tool for static buildup into the KV range. Just vigorously rub a piece of PVC pipe with some paper towels for about 3 minutes and then touch the end of the pipe to a ground rod and watch the sparks fly. Yep, definitely conductive at those voltages.

Well, I'm glad these kids are still alive to tell their story anyway :P

[frankensteinmoneymac]

LOL! nice point!

[shaoran1026]

conductive??? you mean electricity can travel through pvc??? how stupid is that!!!

[AdminOnDuty]

Yes, it is VERY conductive at high voltages. It is one of the most negatively charged materials on the triboelectric scale. Here is a video showing it being used as a conductor: watch?v=05s3zkBPewg

Here is one where a synthetic sweater ignites gas fumes while filling a gas tank:

watch?v=tuZxFL9cGkI

So, while you may use PVC as an insulator through its thickness due to its high dielectric constant, it should never be used in an application where HV can travel on its surface - which it will.

[Waddymsun]

I live in MT and a twin 500kv line runs near the town i live in i believe it runs from Canada to California, I know for a fact you can induce a voltage in a wire coil, i have been shocked pretty bad by a regular electric fence running near it, and you can see the corona discharge at night as well so its obviously leaking some current

[Drevtoobe]

The poor myth buster boys had it wrong, it's all about the cross-sectional area of the pick-up coil.

[aaronisdumbusa]

they are payed in oil so i dont care what they say.

[ImYourLastResort]

the methods and their way of "proving" or "disproving" to THEIR satisfaction is what often annoys me. anyway...

legends in their own minds. ;)

[ImYourLastResort]

they needed a rig to disprove this one? puhleeeeeze.

*sigh*

[mastershake2021]

what idiots!

[trav1971]

totally right tsport!