I love Supernatural and everything but it after its over in future TV shows I will always try and see if there is any misogynistic storytelling in shows I watch before I become attached. I think up female characters and give them proper story arcs in my own head.
Aww, I don't know if Raven deserves to be on that list. Her reasons are sometimes evil and sometimes dead. The sometimes evil thing is an integral part of her character, and her deaths are treated most often as rebirths as she usually comes back each time either cleansed from her demonic influences or more powerful, so I don't think it's negative.
I agree with this video but to be honest the #1 example that popped into my head was when Willow's (a female, lesbian character) girlfriend in Buffy was killed off. That added NOTHING to the story at all, Tara's death was completely random, and happened 100% purely as an incredibly lame plot device and as a reason for Willow to get revenge. It was really frustrating for me to watch even though it didn't involve a man
comic books were sexist from the start. i agree with you fully with everything you say. but those werent the only reasons comics are sexist. just look at almost every female character...
Big Barda and the rest of her entire race were slain by the Infinity Man. She did die in battle with her armor on, though I don't think the battle was ever shown on page. A duel with the Infinity Man would have been an unexpected and sudden fatal blow though, as he was Barda's ally once. But she still saved enough time to put her armor on.
I'd be interested to see a list of women who seek revenge for their male significant others death. I can think of only a few on the spot (can I count Salt since it was originally written for a man's role?)- which seems a shame compared with how quickly I can think of vengeful males.
@majo271010 Comic books are generally more than just sexist. It's pretty degrading the images they portray of woman - either needing rescuing, OR if she is a superhero, somehow she runs around the town in little more than what looks like dog collars wrapped around her enormous beach ball sized breasts with a waist the side of a soda can. It's ridiculous.
@SellySeri Would Xena: Warrior Princess count? She's had a comic book series and come back from the dead many times also. I suppose if you take the television show into account as well.
(cont'd) a necessary in order to advance the story. To make the matter worse, some of fans of the show agreed with writers' decisions and often antagonized the fans of the character with the usual "it has to happen so we can watch Jack Bauer kills tons of baddies" attitude.
What was really baffling was that the show's writers managed to create a gem of a character (s7 was the proof) and then simply stuffing her into the fridge just to have some silly revenge rampage. It's beyond sucks imo.
"24" is very guilty of this trope, especially in the case of its last season.
*Spoiler*
In s7 the show introduced Renee Walker, who was essentially regarded as Jack Bauer's female count part (Yeap, she was that badass). However, in s8, writers decided to kill her in a very undignified fashion so that Jack Bauer can have his rolling rampage of vengeance. As a result fans, especially fans of the character, were extremely angry over what transpired, but the writers simply stated it was (cont'd)
I guess one positive example of this not being the case is in star wars. Shaak Ti is a powerful female jedi master, and was one of only a handful to survive the jedi purge...but then Padme died in childbirth to advance the plots of Anakin and Luke, and I'm sure there are others, so maybe this wasn't such a good example after all.
I love your videos, fantastic points as always. In particular with the Batman issue, don't forget that while Barbara was left in a wheelchair, not only was Batman healed but to be healed he forced another (of course female) character to heal him. The act of doing so caused her to go insane.
I freaking love you. God. If only you could come to my school and give a seminar. Any time I feel like pointing out sexist things in my society or in popular shows or games, I get tonguetied and don't know where to start. I end up making a fool of myself. But it's even sadder when the exact people I'm trying to talk to are my friends, female teenagers, and they don't see anything wrong with the way society demoralizes girls' rights and opinions. Even in comic books. It's so stupid.
@ZombieDaisuke To those of you who don't watch Supernatural, ZambieDaisuke isn't exaggerating. Pretty much every woman who appears on Supernatural is in or will end up in this trope.
@ZombieDaisuke Yep. I suspect part of the reason they killed off both Cas and Bobby is cause they're both white dudes, and they thought it might make it less obvious. And of course both of those characters will, I'm sure, be back eventually.
Thank You! I really love Elektra, but as soon as she died I was like, " Really?! the worlds greatest assassin gets butchered just to create a plot point?" *facepalm*
Yeah, it sucks. These female superheroes could be good role models for girls if they were written better and not killed off horribly. I always have trouble finding good comics to send to my sister. But, there are some good ones out there. The new Batgirl comic is pretty good.
What really bothers me is not the violence against the female characters, it is the blatant disregard for the female readers. Woman superheroes look like strippers and prostitutes, while men are clad from head to toe. There are no plot lines meant to speak to female readers and instead pressure women to look like unrealistic fantasies. Women can be powerful and complex protagonists. Why don't men die to push the story arc of a woman? Society does not attempt to connect with women in any medium.
I'm sure someone else already brought this up, but there are exceptions to this rule as well. One of my two favorite DC heroines, Raven, came back even more powerful than she was after she was killed. Granted she was this ghostly entity, but that just meant she had this Obi-Wan force connection (my other favorite being Catwoman, but thank the Lord no one killed her in the main universe yet). When Wasp was killed, she came back as an entity that encompassed the Avengers Mansion; I hope they bring
I'm not writing to disagree with the majority of your video, in fact I agree with a lot, however, I would like to note that in one of the video games you mentioned (Fable II) you are given the option to choose either a male or female character. that's all
CHECK OUT the females on the show Boardwalk Empire i had hope for them but the show is overwhelmingly male centered and filled with half naked women. Spoiler!!! it really pissed me of when the female character named pearl who was a prostitute killed herself after her face was cut by a mobster and thus advancing the plot of the other male characters to take revenge. i only noticed this because of you FEMFREQ thanks!
You can go read a comic book like that right now. It's called Promethea by by Alan Moore, J. H. Williams. It's pretty fabulous. It doesn't make up for the rest, but it's a start.
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out but Stephanie Brown became Batgirl after her "death" where as your video gives the impression that she was Batgirl before her "death"
It would be interesting to see how many male characters die for a story arch. Is it this a symptom of the uneven number of male protagonists, and supporting female side characters? I'm thinking of, particularly, the newest Spiderman franchise, with the death of Peter Parker's Uncle Ben, or in the following movies with the death of Green Goblin and the effect on his son.
From what I understand in Barbra Gordon's case, she was originally supposed to be physically restored, but then DC thought it would cater better to disabled people if she instead became Oracle.
Good commentary. While I was watching, I tried to think of examples of "men in refrigerators" but I came up with a grand total of one (Kyle Reese in "The Terminator), whereas I could think of five women in refrigerators off the top of my head.
Storytellers have to rely on tropes the same as musicians rely on stereotypical chords or comedians similar formulas for jokes. The challenge has always been to do something new and interesting with the trope to develop the medium further and make your mark.
That's true, but when the tropes are harmful, there should be more people like Anita speaking out against them instead of just accepting them. These tropes are harmful to (1) women because they reinforce stereotypes about women (2) men because they bring out the worst in them (3) relationships between men and women (how will men ever learn to have healthy sexual relationships if they think all women are manipulative and sex is like one prolonged fight?)
Now THIS is a major gripe that's always nagging at the back of my mind when I watch/read things. Always drives me friggin' crazy. I was pleased with Buffy, when she died in the show, she sacrificed herself to save the world. That's how more things should be.
So, so so, true. I wonder how much of the use of dead female partners and family members also relates to covert heterosexism. Having a male character seek revenge for a dead male brother or friend does not play into the male-as-protector role that male heroes display for young readers to learn. Instead it would reinforce love between two men as valuable. This only seems acceptable when one male completely non-sexual such as a father figure (e.g. Uncle Ben) or a child (back to men as protectors).
Bit of semantic correction: In Fable II, the hero could also be a female. But this doesn't change your argument, because regardless of the protagonist's gender, it's a female of who dies as a catalyst for the main storyline.
@cessena Dr. Horrible takes the trope and reverses it. The main differences are 1) she died due to the protagonist's actions, putting her more in the Uncle Ben category and 2) the protagonist became worse off due to the death -- he didn't respond well and grow more.
It is the same trope, though, so perhaps I'm giving too much credit. Since Whedon has such a good history, both in writing female characters and purposefully reversing tropes, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
although - in Tara's case - it was developing Willow's story (not male), and in Fred's case - came Ilyria instead and I'm not sure it developed Wesley's character much - it only destroyed his perfect happiness.
in Dr. Horrible's case, the representation of women is lacking something - Penny is too much the "caring/nurturing" character without human flaws, and both men are not treating her as a human being - Hammer - obvious, but even Horrible is not thinking of her but on his fantasy based on looks (she made it clear that she is not fond of evilness, and he still think that being evil will atract her or he'll just buy her).
I agree with most of this, but I disagree on the subject of Barbara Gordan. True, she never regained the use of her legs. But it did make her into a more developed character, and actually in terms of power. She becomes the most talented hacker in the DC universe, helping not only Batman but tons of other superheroes, leading her own team (the Birds of Prey), and actually helping more people than she could have as Batgirl.
I'd not heard of WiR before & yr video points out a lot of cool info. Great job!
IMHO, I think the Lost women were possibly the best tv women in the history of tv women. Libby & Shannon both had great backstories & love interests & their deaths arent used to spur Hurley and Sayid's motivations nor solely as plot twists. Focusing on these deaths only takes away from the rich storyline & diversity of all other characters, eg, Boone & Charlie's deaths were as much plot points as Libby & Shannon's
while i agree with 95% of what you say there is a part of me that wants to argue that though you want this to stop - sometimes it is required. for instance in a film where the narrative is revenge, i dont feel fleshing out a mans wife, making her a rounded character, showing her likes, dislikes etc is always a good use of screen time - for a male directed audience for instance where the wife is left intentionally shadowy so we can fill our own ideas into the blank spot which is the dead wife
Just an observation here. The Women in Refrigerators trope should only be valid for female characters that were not created so that they could provide a dramatic death. Green Lantern's girlfriend only existed so that she might die. Women in Refrigerators is valid for Lian Harper and Spoiler/Batgirl. As for Gwen Stacy, well, the writers at the time said she was going nowhere - and indeed, she was less interesting than MJ. Might as well provide a classic story.
@MrColuber No it shouldn't. It also shows how careless writers are with all their female characters and inherently treat them all as disposable. They would never rape or leave permanently crippled Batman and other beloved male role models- they are sacred, untouchable by the deep shaming and sexual violence and any in any hardship they suffer through they must come out with strength and integrity. Women are violated and degraded in their physical and mental integrity on a daily basis.
@MrColuber Also, there are other ways to take a "boring" love interest out of a story than brutal murder. There is this thing calling breaking up and coming merrily on their separate way, that happens all the time in the real world. We shouldn't be stuck so often with the crass mentality of "Let's brutally murder her! It'll give the male protagonist a deep and brooding storyline and we can replace her by a brand new better sparklier chick! High fives all around!"
Ok, but can we talk about how often Joss Whedon uses the trope of having women be raped/taken advantage of in order to "empower them?" Maybe not literally like in the case of Dollhouse, but Buffy, Cordelia, River-- all are female characters who have in some way had their bodies altered without their consent in a symbolic "rape." Buffy's Slayer powers, Cordelia's "headaches," River's entire brain. And none of that is empowering to them at all, it's just angst fodder. For a largely male audience.
@MisterAvailable:I and many other feminists, no doubt including feministfrequency, are well aware of the history of the feminist movement. If feminism from the 70s had really entered comic books, how do you explain the fact that this trope has been played out so often in comic books decades after the fact? And while you are well aware about the oppression of women, would you rather we didn't talk about it? Who cares if this is a "repetition", it's still happening and bears talking about.
I completely forgot that Stephanie got killed at one point. And I had no idea Big Barta got killed at all, but killed by some common enemy no less with no struggle? That's like a field mouse killing a Bengal tiger with one little nibble. Barta deserved better than that. Black Cat is one of my favorite Marvel characters ever, and I always enjoy it when she's well written (Kevin Smith's portrayal of her was great), but her back story of being violated wasn't necessary.
I have to quibble with a handful of points. First and foremost, there are comic writers who write women as well rounded characters, notably the original compiler of the WiR list, Gail Simone. Second, Stephanie Brown did die that way, but was brought back as Batgirl afterward, becoming extraordinarily popular in the process, at the expense of an Asian Batgirl. Her death was a motivator in the Asian Batgirl's story. Finally, Fable 2 allows you to select the gender of the protagonist.
@Vermilionone Whoawhoa, Cassandra Cain was totally character-derailed by One Year Later long before Stephanie came back from the dead. And that whole Cass leading the League of Assassins BS totally pissed off fans, this one included. As they developed the Cass/Steph relationship waaay back in the Batgirl series, I really wanted to see a Cass/Batwoman Steph/Robin team-up, even as a AU. Hasn't happened, still disappointed.
I hope that you do a segment on "torture porn" in movies. I am really disturbed by the sheer number of torture porn flicks out there--they seem so outdated and yet they're extremely popular with teenage males. At least in comic books the female victims die for some plot purpose; in the movies they die to fulfill the sicko fantasies of the movie maker.
It did kind of surprised me that these comics would actually glorify sexual violence especially since many of the consumers are very young. I always thought most of the sexist images might be in manga because I know Japanese artists are notorious for infantalizing women in their manga. Moreover I've taken an interest in Catwoman a couple years ago, but she was never popular like batman :(. Maybe this video might explain why
Thank you for this great information. It's something we know, but don't know. We feel there's something wrong with all the portrayals of women as dead bodies, but can't put it into words. You just gave us the tools so thank you very much!
I can see how you would get a lot of slack for something like this. I'm not what I'd class as a 'feminist' more someone whom hopes many things against all genders will change with awareness....yet this is a very interesting point on a subject we wouldn't often look into....It makes you think and THAT is what is important!
As much as I think pointing out sexism in pop culture is important, are you at all active in the political side of things? For instance, congress is trying to defund Planned Parenthood. There a dozens of bills right now that seriously curtail women's reproductive rights.
While I agree with the video, and while I hate this trope, I believe mentioning Barbara Gordon was certainly unfair. The paraplegic plot twist wasn't something bad for the character, not at all. She was good as a Batgirl, but she became much more stronger and important to the story as Oracle than she ever was as a Batgirl. She became a leader and a awesome fictional exemple not only for strong, inteligent woman, but also for handicapped people, you know? :P
@marysullivan This is a pretty good point as she seemed to be one of the few female comic characters to bounce back from her affliction and establish an identity beyond "the girl the joker shot".
However I think the video was making the point of how Batman, a male, shrugs off getting his goddamn back broken like nothing happened while Gordon is paralyzed for life, being the delicate little female flower she is *hurgh*
More a reflection of how women in comics are "weaker" than their male cohorts.
@malleableconcrete And a good point that was, however awesome Barbara Gordon turned out to be as the Oracle.
This indirectly shows how dumbass american super heroes comics are in defending the status quo, by hand-waving miraculous super-hero recoveries/ressurection.
Aside from Jean Grey, I really can't remember a lot of females supers who came back from comic heaven's revolving door.
@marysullivan I think her note of bringing up Barbara Gordon was not to say what happened to her was bad, but rather to contrast it with the situation of Batman later suffering just as severe (if not more so) of a spinal injury, but coming back fully healthy. If Batman had suffered a permanent injury like Barbara Gordon and had to reinvent himself that would have been awesome, but no. He goes back to normal, and only Batgirl has to change. What's the difference here? Gender of the character.
@marysullivan The problem is how much it doesn't make sense in a universe with such a wide array of amazing technology and powers for this one character to be singled out for permanent disability when such an enormous number of male superheros recover fully from significantly worse injuries on a regular basis.
Though I do agree that Barbara Gordon getting shot in the spine by the Joker in Killing Joke was a fridging of the character, I totally disagree that DC dropped the ball on healing her. I think she's much better off as Oracle, and fills a very important role in the comics. Not only is she now defined in more ways than just her ass kicking potential, she's still a very strong and independent woman, who still has an active love life with Dick Grayson (Nightwing/Batman II)
Ok, these "tropes" that you are doing have rapidly become one of my favorite parts of your channel. They are very well done, and I eagerly await the others.
There's something particularly... euchh. About superheroines getting raped. It's like a reminder, "She maybe a super-woman, but she's still a WOMAN. See look, we'll put her in her place."
I'm really into this series! Although, in terms of Dead Men Defrosting, a really good female example is Buffy, who dies twice, heroically in the second instance, and comes back both times, although arguably in the second instance, much less better than she left.
Anita, great video! You're doing an AWESOME job with Feminist Frequency. This video is certainly one of the best you've made. Keep up with your channel. We really need women like you speaking out there. Thank you so much for sharing with us!
I thought that this was interesting, but you missed quite a few relevant details that could partially explain the existence of such a trope. For example, most wars throughout history have been fought by men (even now, there are places in which women are not allowed to join the army), often based on a desire to protect the women and children with whom they are associated. Think about Helen of Troy - she may be a myth, but her story is rather refrigerator-y.
Definitely why I always loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Essentially, a female superhero, who dies TWICE, I'd like to remind you, who always comes back. :D Heck yes.
As always great work. While I wasn't a fan of Barbara Gordon getting paralyzed and not being Batgirl, it allowed her to become a hugely influentical and positive role model for girls and the differently abled. So much so that there was fan outcry to the idea of undoing her paralysis a few years ago.
For an example of a superheroine getting a heroic, fighting send off death, refer to Supergirl in Crisis on infinite Earths. She went out swinging, and she was mourned, not just WIR'd.
The problem is that many writers follow tradition rather than thinking for themselves and approaching characters from a clean slate, and applying the same principles to characters regardless of sex. I noticed, when reading comics, as a kid, that the male characters got to do 90% of the heroic deeds, whereas the female characters were often peripheral; in the five man band, the woman often has no clearly defined role. In Halo Reach, everyone who dies, dies heroically, except the woman, Kat.
The worst thing with comics is often the characters switching hands. You'll have women being written really well and not getting fridged, then another writer will pick up the story and screw it up (often just because they want to get rid of characters they don't like). I remember the wir site having a few authors talking about how much they hated what later writers did to their characters. :/
I would really appreciate if at some point Feminist Frequency actually lived up to it's name and started *subtitling it's videos*. Accessibility for disabled people is a feminist issue, too.
@MsGodlessHeathen All my videos (except this one) are captioned, with transcripts available. This is the only one that I haven't had a chance to subtitle yet but I definitely will. Many of my videos are also available in other languages. I agree, online accessibility is of critical importance.
@MsGodlessHeathen Just an update, I was having technical problems with my subtitler (hence the delay) but one of my viewers subtitled it into English and Polish.
However, I feel like people are being hard to please. The death of a female character isn't ALWAYS being thrown into a fridge. When it's a pointless character, like the sister in Fable, it counts. Same for GL's girlfriend. And, ugh. Don't get me started on Sue Dibny.
Consider Aunt May's death back in #400. That was a touching, sweet death, done just how it should have been. (And, for the record, she's proof that sometimes the girls are the only ones that get to defrost.) RIP Ben.
God, I was so angry when they killed of Libby, Shanon, and Ana Lucia for absolutely no reason except for male character development on Lost. I fucking loved Ana Lucia, she's still my favorite Lost character.
THANK YOU for including Heroes. That bothered me so much I stopped watching--also notice how for most of the first season Claire was an object to be saved, the second season she was an object to be protected (a vehicle for her power). She was almost a MacGuffin. And she was main cast!
The TV show Supernatural is a big offender in regards to this trope. The main characters' mother, Sam's girlfriend, the various women Sam/Dean have sex with . . . they all die to further the storyline of John, Sam, and Dean. =/
All right look I know I've commented on this a lot, I get how this could be a problem for superheroes who are supposed to be powerful (at least when done en masse) but if it's for minor characters with no powers who get written in specifically to provide backstory (God Of War) what's the problem?
One more thing, if the death of a women is treated as an important event that drives a character to do something big how is it being treated flippantly?
Its interesting that you mention how these superheroines' deaths are framed as "random" or "meaningless". It reminds me of a similar (lack) of explanation you'll find in the media when it comes to discussing the actions of heterosexual male serial killers that only target women. Rather than address the murders as a misogynist expression, they're described as "without motive" & therefore "unexplainable", instead of a systemic problem that continues because it is simply too "random" to look into
i think in part in perpetuates because writers are afraid of "deviating" from the traditional heteronormative binaries in one way or the other we need new example of relationships non normative heterosexuality complex same sex relationships and geniune female strength. id love to see a story where superman is sexually assaulted and Big Barda comes to save him!!! just to fuck with the patriarchy!!!! lmao (i need to make some slasher comics)
I see nothing at all wrong with killing males OR females to advance the story arc of a main character. This is done all the time in fiction. It's an essential, irreplaceable tool for driving character motivation and garnering empathy from readers.
That said, the sheer -amount- of women who die to advance male MC arcs in comics and in other artistic media (not to mention the degrading, sexualizing way they often are) is atrocious, and on that note you're absolutely right.
I'm not saying this video is wrong or anything, but the whole thing surrounding Barda's death was poorly written and a travesty. Not only her, but all of the New God characters. The writer used them to throw in his own personal grim-gritty anti-religion manifesto. Barda and Scott had an great relationship in comics. Stephanie Brown DID come back 'like the men' strong then before. Just because some of these comics are chauvinistic doesn't mean all are, nor does it mean all women are degraded.
your lucidity is inspiring. this situation in the comic world is easily traslated into actual reality by seeing how women's careers can be easily sacrificed for the benefit of men's developement.
Coming in as a comic book fan, there are a few facts that I could nitpick here and there. But the fact that killing female characters simply to further a male character's story arc is so commonplace is something that I have long believed to be a massive failing on the part of DC and Marvel. Also, I do have to add one fairly recent example that may be the most irksome of all.
In Cry for Justice, Roy Harper's daughter Lian was killed off for the sake of cheap drama. She wasn't even a teenager.
Even when not being raped/killed/both, female characters are still being used as automatons to further predominately male narratives (Scott PIlgrim vs The World anyone? The movie, not the comic). You see this in everything from comics to music videos. And nobody seems to be doing a damn thing about it! Thank you, Anita Sarkessian, for fighting the good fight and continuing to put the word out on these shameful practices.
Oh one other thing I should say about Barbara DC recently was going to restore her to her Batgirl role, but there was a huge backlash because a lot of people think she's a better character as Oracle and DC originally promised not to de-pralyze her till it was possible with real world medicine. I do think DC is the most women friendly of the mainstream comic companies with several women friendly books, but they still have problems.
I read quite a few comic books. You know what bugs me even more then WiR? The fact that all the women dress like complete sluts. Like, they're fighting crime, why don't they wear clothing that will protect then?
i'm not a big reader of comics, but i see a certain explanation for why female heroes are more "disposable", (yet it's no excuse):
a common trend in comics is to offer out of the blue a female version of a given popular character...making the essencial work of fleshing out the personality, background, etc,. a hasty and sloppy one.
when the trend passes, they have a female super hero that was never ment to be more than a hot body set to go out in "style"...tortured or killed in the kitchen.
I agree on the message of this video but just as a small note you can choose to be a girl in Fable II and in that case it is the boy the one you have to avenge. About comic books, I would like to be able to read any and find a female superhero without huge boobs, seriously, I'm a guy and I do enjoy erotic women images but even I dislike when all the heroines have impossible cup sizes and sport ridiculously tight and/or small costumes.
As comics are often written by men about male protagonists the logic goes: why did protagonist go crazy/vengeful > something REALLY bad happened to loved one > can be parent, love interest or sibling - all have a high chance of being female but girlfriend is easiest. Seems to be more lazy writing than sexiest.
Okay, so I am not trying to dismiss anything you say, but Fable II is one of my favorite games, and I just want to point out you can play as a male OR female. And while both times you are avenging your younger sister, when playing as a female I'm not sure your theory holds for this game.
This trope has always annoyed me, not just from a feminist perspective, but from a writing point of view 'cause there are thousands of other ways for a character to become complex. Maybe the characters' vengeance is for selfish reasons? Maybe they just want political equality for their people? Maybe their relationship with their enemy is more than just a feud? It's okay to be creative, you know. :)
Wow, feminists are ALWAYS teaching me something new. I swear it.
Frankly, I never liked comic books due to the exaggerated busts and catering to men. My friend, David, was outraged when he discovered that The Alchemist (A book he loved!) came out as a graphic book but, instead of being what he was excited to see, all he noticed was just EXAGGERATEDLY busty women... even the ones who were supposed to be modest and innocent. A pity cause I looked forward to buying that graphic "novel." *sigh* >.<
Not all comic books are like bad "Superhero" comics. You only shine a light on one type of comic and that is unfortunate. Comics have a variety of types and genres. for the Superhero genre there are many great writers with a passion, who show the appropriate respect for comics. Writers who do put out good stories and avoid tropes like these will get the respect they deserve if people like you use your voice to promote them. Gail Simone is a comic book writer, why not list some of her books?
@puklop this video is the second in a series about tropes in the media that denigrate women. She used comics as the medium, but also referenced TV and video games. It was clearly not an attack of the comic book industry, just this trope. In her MPDG video she didn't list the countless movies that don't use that trope.
I think if there had ever been a mainstream strong Super woman out there where she would never have to fear a thing like rape or abuse from a man more women would have hope out there and less men would feel like the most powerful superior humans comics and video games make them to be. I'm sure there are some like that but those girl heroes are usually tied up in some romance..
I created a blog for myself I eventually plan to host vlogs on and right now do reviews and articles called "out of the fridge" I once did a look at Alan Moore's work. You wouldn't believe it but I got a huge backlash from people who accept that WiR is a problem but feel in no way does Barbara's crippling and implied rape fit because it drove home his point effectivly,she became more interesting as Oracle. I contrasted to Knightfall, Moore didn't write Oracle, and even he said it was a mistake
@PetiteOzma While what happened to Barbara did "fit" with the Joker and all, it is still a case of WiR. Though I am of the opinion that she is a more useful, more interesting, character as Oracle, that doesn't take away the case of WiR that led her there.
I might have to watch this video again, because my head is still reeling around the fact that Big Barta was killed. Who kills Big Barta?! Why does it make it seem like she went grocery shopping in her super suit and came home to be surprised and killed by what seems to be a gun? It's all ridiculous.
@babileilei Big Barda was killed by the Infinity Man who was acting on behalf of the Source (basically God/the Universe Itself/the Ultimate Power, etc).
Her and Mister Miracle were often seen in their normal suburban home while wearing their costumes, from what I recall.
@babileilei Let's also be reminded that Big Barda was also the sexual plaything of one of the villains and she is DENIED revenge by Superman, and then the villain escapes. Which also shows that women don't deserve revenge if it inconveniences a male character.
One correction Stephanie Brown was not yet Batgirl when she was killed; she's been brought back and has only recently become Batgirl and her series is awesome, a title where she thinks creativly, has fun and has several great supporting female cast members. Also It would have been nice if you used an example where a female character death was treated properly like Supergirl's one one one battle witht the Antimonitor in the Crisis.
@yoshiphones I feel the exact same way. I turn off more movies and TV shows because of this every day. It drives my boyfriend nuts when I constantly point these things out and then it just bothers me that he doesn't recognize his own privilege. He's learning, though.
@lucifer1343 It's a never-ending battle right? But you're right about the privilege part, because I am certain that that is why they don't like critically looking at things. If it doesn't effect them directly, why should they care? They enjoy watching things that represent them and make them feel strong and empowered, and do not want to be told the ways that women and other marginalized people are constantly degraded in the media. I think that is why there is always a backlash too.
The last time I was able to identify myself with a female hero without the constant fear of something morbid like that coming her way was back in the good'ol days of Xena. It would be nice to relive that experience, but blood and bare breasts sell, so I remain afraid. Very afraid...
Gail Simone is a genius and hands-down my favorite writer in comics. She writes every character with respect and dignity and it results in amazing, powerful, and consistently good stories. I think everyone should take a page from her book before sitting down to write a comic, because if comics were able to hold reader interest with good content alone maybe we wouldn't need sensationalistic surprise deaths to spike sales.
While I think this is a great point, and hits home for me closer than your other videos as comics is the medium I spend most of my time with, I feel something was overlooked here. That this video would just warn off more women from reading comics, and there's already a more subtle gendered backlash that should be addressed as comics are considered a boys club. There are many great comics with strong female characters, I would implore you to promote them and not just bash those who don't.
I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but in a literary sense (especially in a genre as violent as superhero fiction) I think murder and death should be displayed as sudden, senseless, disturbing and unglamorized. This is Murder we're talking about here after all. And isn't it worse if a supporting character dies and it doesn't forward the plot and help develope the main character's character arc? That would seem like a worse literary crime.
@mooradleyy You are right, it's sad when violence on women is presented as a kind of heroic martyrdom. What message does this send out? "Look here girls, you may be violated and get the shit beat out of you, but it will turn you into a better person and give a meaning to your existence!"
@mooradleyy If I had been sexually violated, I would turn into a super villan, seeking revenge. That would be far more logical, not to mention interesting. Villains are very powerful characters too.
I love Supernatural and everything but it after its over in future TV shows I will always try and see if there is any misogynistic storytelling in shows I watch before I become attached. I think up female characters and give them proper story arcs in my own head.
lovelylostlady 1 month ago 5
Aww, I don't know if Raven deserves to be on that list. Her reasons are sometimes evil and sometimes dead. The sometimes evil thing is an integral part of her character, and her deaths are treated most often as rebirths as she usually comes back each time either cleansed from her demonic influences or more powerful, so I don't think it's negative.
AbraCadaveric 4 months ago
I agree with this video but to be honest the #1 example that popped into my head was when Willow's (a female, lesbian character) girlfriend in Buffy was killed off. That added NOTHING to the story at all, Tara's death was completely random, and happened 100% purely as an incredibly lame plot device and as a reason for Willow to get revenge. It was really frustrating for me to watch even though it didn't involve a man
AdrienneOrpheus 4 months ago 18
Worst part of Lost? Killing off the interesting female characters for no other reason than because it would be interesting for the male counterpart.
puellanivis 4 months ago in playlist Weitere Videos von feministfrequency 2
comic books were sexist from the start. i agree with you fully with everything you say. but those werent the only reasons comics are sexist. just look at almost every female character...
Ziggasm 4 months ago 3
This is an interesting video...
randomchick8888 4 months ago
Big Barda and the rest of her entire race were slain by the Infinity Man. She did die in battle with her armor on, though I don't think the battle was ever shown on page. A duel with the Infinity Man would have been an unexpected and sudden fatal blow though, as he was Barda's ally once. But she still saved enough time to put her armor on.
YettiYogiBear 4 months ago
I think comics and video games, are actually just sexist as a standard. the nerds love the hero brooding and vengeful over a female campaigns death
djsinnema 4 months ago in playlist More videos from feministfrequency
I'd be interested to see a list of women who seek revenge for their male significant others death. I can think of only a few on the spot (can I count Salt since it was originally written for a man's role?)- which seems a shame compared with how quickly I can think of vengeful males.
ellieg609 4 months ago
Another common trope is when all the gay superheroes are killed, tortured, or end up becoming straight.
reriolu 5 months ago in playlist More videos from feministfrequency
Can anyone say The Crow?
MeltingJuju 5 months ago
Thing is, Barbara Gordon kicked ass, even in a wheelchair.
Ninpowfan 5 months ago 5
I love comic books, but I hate how they can be so sexist
majo271010 5 months ago
@majo271010 Comic books are generally more than just sexist. It's pretty degrading the images they portray of woman - either needing rescuing, OR if she is a superhero, somehow she runs around the town in little more than what looks like dog collars wrapped around her enormous beach ball sized breasts with a waist the side of a soda can. It's ridiculous.
whataboutredlorry 4 months ago
Buffy is the only defrosting heroine I have withnessed.
SellySeri 5 months ago 4
@SellySeri Would Xena: Warrior Princess count? She's had a comic book series and come back from the dead many times also. I suppose if you take the television show into account as well.
1stbrasscaptain 4 months ago in playlist More videos from feministfrequency
(cont'd) a necessary in order to advance the story. To make the matter worse, some of fans of the show agreed with writers' decisions and often antagonized the fans of the character with the usual "it has to happen so we can watch Jack Bauer kills tons of baddies" attitude.
What was really baffling was that the show's writers managed to create a gem of a character (s7 was the proof) and then simply stuffing her into the fridge just to have some silly revenge rampage. It's beyond sucks imo.
atomicentity 5 months ago
"24" is very guilty of this trope, especially in the case of its last season.
*Spoiler*
In s7 the show introduced Renee Walker, who was essentially regarded as Jack Bauer's female count part (Yeap, she was that badass). However, in s8, writers decided to kill her in a very undignified fashion so that Jack Bauer can have his rolling rampage of vengeance. As a result fans, especially fans of the character, were extremely angry over what transpired, but the writers simply stated it was (cont'd)
atomicentity 5 months ago
I like the argument, not wild about the name of the magazine! This is an intelligent point of view, not a dog's.
gilgamess 5 months ago
Great video -- this is definitely a trope I'm sick of seeing in media (ESPECIALLY comic books!).
mistaria 5 months ago
This trope is probably one of the worst. To be honest, I hate when ANYONE, male or female, is killed in a story for no good reason.
LadyRuin2012 5 months ago 6
I guess one positive example of this not being the case is in star wars. Shaak Ti is a powerful female jedi master, and was one of only a handful to survive the jedi purge...but then Padme died in childbirth to advance the plots of Anakin and Luke, and I'm sure there are others, so maybe this wasn't such a good example after all.
cronos225 5 months ago
I love your videos, fantastic points as always. In particular with the Batman issue, don't forget that while Barbara was left in a wheelchair, not only was Batman healed but to be healed he forced another (of course female) character to heal him. The act of doing so caused her to go insane.
Schwarzd354 6 months ago
I freaking love you. God. If only you could come to my school and give a seminar. Any time I feel like pointing out sexist things in my society or in popular shows or games, I get tonguetied and don't know where to start. I end up making a fool of myself. But it's even sadder when the exact people I'm trying to talk to are my friends, female teenagers, and they don't see anything wrong with the way society demoralizes girls' rights and opinions. Even in comic books. It's so stupid.
sihtekilsdrawkcabmi 6 months ago
The show Supernatural is so guilty of this trope it's embarrassing.
ZombieDaisuke 6 months ago 108
@ZombieDaisuke To those of you who don't watch Supernatural, ZambieDaisuke isn't exaggerating. Pretty much every woman who appears on Supernatural is in or will end up in this trope.
SunnyHappy2008 4 months ago 3
@ZombieDaisuke The first time I heard of both this and the bechdel test all I thought of was supernatural...
lovefromeponine 3 months ago
@ZombieDaisuke I love Supernatural, but oh god you're so right, the writers' take of female characters is so embarrassingly guilty of this trope.
GraysonBabs4eva 3 months ago 2
@ZombieDaisuke and i am a massive fan of this show, but this is one of the reason why i hate it... no female character has survived
carleyb81 2 months ago 3
@ZombieDaisuke Yep. I suspect part of the reason they killed off both Cas and Bobby is cause they're both white dudes, and they thought it might make it less obvious. And of course both of those characters will, I'm sure, be back eventually.
oywidapoodles 1 month ago in playlist More videos from feministfrequency
Thank You! I really love Elektra, but as soon as she died I was like, " Really?! the worlds greatest assassin gets butchered just to create a plot point?" *facepalm*
and I'm a guy saying this >:(
assassin6637 6 months ago 6
Yeah, it sucks. These female superheroes could be good role models for girls if they were written better and not killed off horribly. I always have trouble finding good comics to send to my sister. But, there are some good ones out there. The new Batgirl comic is pretty good.
Jgotmilk555 7 months ago
What really bothers me is not the violence against the female characters, it is the blatant disregard for the female readers. Woman superheroes look like strippers and prostitutes, while men are clad from head to toe. There are no plot lines meant to speak to female readers and instead pressure women to look like unrealistic fantasies. Women can be powerful and complex protagonists. Why don't men die to push the story arc of a woman? Society does not attempt to connect with women in any medium.
samiam2088 7 months ago 6
I'm sure someone else already brought this up, but there are exceptions to this rule as well. One of my two favorite DC heroines, Raven, came back even more powerful than she was after she was killed. Granted she was this ghostly entity, but that just meant she had this Obi-Wan force connection (my other favorite being Catwoman, but thank the Lord no one killed her in the main universe yet). When Wasp was killed, she came back as an entity that encompassed the Avengers Mansion; I hope they bring
darkmoose84 7 months ago
I'm not writing to disagree with the majority of your video, in fact I agree with a lot, however, I would like to note that in one of the video games you mentioned (Fable II) you are given the option to choose either a male or female character. that's all
LauraBeth326 7 months ago 5
all of these criticisms can be said about minority characters in just about any medium
luser279 7 months ago 73
CHECK OUT the females on the show Boardwalk Empire i had hope for them but the show is overwhelmingly male centered and filled with half naked women. Spoiler!!! it really pissed me of when the female character named pearl who was a prostitute killed herself after her face was cut by a mobster and thus advancing the plot of the other male characters to take revenge. i only noticed this because of you FEMFREQ thanks!
PimpMyParadigm 7 months ago
Christopher Nolan is guilty of this trope too. I don't think he's fascinated with dead women or sexist. I just think he's being a lazy writer.
buslagged 7 months ago 2
You can go read a comic book like that right now. It's called Promethea by by Alan Moore, J. H. Williams. It's pretty fabulous. It doesn't make up for the rest, but it's a start.
mithrandir1420 7 months ago
Big Barda is not dead. I refuse to recognize that issue as valid. My head-canon does not allow for Barda and Scott's awesomeness/marriage to end.
kyriathalia 7 months ago
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out but Stephanie Brown became Batgirl after her "death" where as your video gives the impression that she was Batgirl before her "death"
GaEv4 7 months ago 3
@ 2:21
Huh?
They still were their suit in their own kitchen ?
Oddonan 8 months ago
It would be interesting to see how many male characters die for a story arch. Is it this a symptom of the uneven number of male protagonists, and supporting female side characters? I'm thinking of, particularly, the newest Spiderman franchise, with the death of Peter Parker's Uncle Ben, or in the following movies with the death of Green Goblin and the effect on his son.
syltith 8 months ago
From what I understand in Barbra Gordon's case, she was originally supposed to be physically restored, but then DC thought it would cater better to disabled people if she instead became Oracle.
VigilanteNighthawk 9 months ago
Good commentary. While I was watching, I tried to think of examples of "men in refrigerators" but I came up with a grand total of one (Kyle Reese in "The Terminator), whereas I could think of five women in refrigerators off the top of my head.
EuphrasieF 9 months ago
Storytellers have to rely on tropes the same as musicians rely on stereotypical chords or comedians similar formulas for jokes. The challenge has always been to do something new and interesting with the trope to develop the medium further and make your mark.
jdenicholls 9 months ago
@jdenicholls
That's true, but when the tropes are harmful, there should be more people like Anita speaking out against them instead of just accepting them. These tropes are harmful to (1) women because they reinforce stereotypes about women (2) men because they bring out the worst in them (3) relationships between men and women (how will men ever learn to have healthy sexual relationships if they think all women are manipulative and sex is like one prolonged fight?)
maiafleur 9 months ago
Thanks for mentioning Lost. My daughter and I eventually assumed every female character not named Kate was pre-destined to die.
markmatson 9 months ago 4
Now THIS is a major gripe that's always nagging at the back of my mind when I watch/read things. Always drives me friggin' crazy. I was pleased with Buffy, when she died in the show, she sacrificed herself to save the world. That's how more things should be.
IllyriaGodKing 9 months ago
So, so so, true. I wonder how much of the use of dead female partners and family members also relates to covert heterosexism. Having a male character seek revenge for a dead male brother or friend does not play into the male-as-protector role that male heroes display for young readers to learn. Instead it would reinforce love between two men as valuable. This only seems acceptable when one male completely non-sexual such as a father figure (e.g. Uncle Ben) or a child (back to men as protectors).
StJamesJr 9 months ago
Bit of semantic correction: In Fable II, the hero could also be a female. But this doesn't change your argument, because regardless of the protagonist's gender, it's a female of who dies as a catalyst for the main storyline.
babieslostintime 9 months ago 5
This also bothered me in the web musical Dr. Horrible. I usually expect better from Joss Wheadon.
cessena 9 months ago
@cessena Dr. Horrible takes the trope and reverses it. The main differences are 1) she died due to the protagonist's actions, putting her more in the Uncle Ben category and 2) the protagonist became worse off due to the death -- he didn't respond well and grow more.
It is the same trope, though, so perhaps I'm giving too much credit. Since Whedon has such a good history, both in writing female characters and purposefully reversing tropes, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
markmatson 9 months ago
@markmatson Tara? Fred?
although - in Tara's case - it was developing Willow's story (not male), and in Fred's case - came Ilyria instead and I'm not sure it developed Wesley's character much - it only destroyed his perfect happiness.
zootizoot 8 months ago
@markmatson and
in Dr. Horrible's case, the representation of women is lacking something - Penny is too much the "caring/nurturing" character without human flaws, and both men are not treating her as a human being - Hammer - obvious, but even Horrible is not thinking of her but on his fantasy based on looks (she made it clear that she is not fond of evilness, and he still think that being evil will atract her or he'll just buy her).
not the trope, but not better
zootizoot 8 months ago
I agree with most of this, but I disagree on the subject of Barbara Gordan. True, she never regained the use of her legs. But it did make her into a more developed character, and actually in terms of power. She becomes the most talented hacker in the DC universe, helping not only Batman but tons of other superheroes, leading her own team (the Birds of Prey), and actually helping more people than she could have as Batgirl.
Candypirate11 9 months ago 4
I'd not heard of WiR before & yr video points out a lot of cool info. Great job!
IMHO, I think the Lost women were possibly the best tv women in the history of tv women. Libby & Shannon both had great backstories & love interests & their deaths arent used to spur Hurley and Sayid's motivations nor solely as plot twists. Focusing on these deaths only takes away from the rich storyline & diversity of all other characters, eg, Boone & Charlie's deaths were as much plot points as Libby & Shannon's
hungryforpants 10 months ago
while i agree with 95% of what you say there is a part of me that wants to argue that though you want this to stop - sometimes it is required. for instance in a film where the narrative is revenge, i dont feel fleshing out a mans wife, making her a rounded character, showing her likes, dislikes etc is always a good use of screen time - for a male directed audience for instance where the wife is left intentionally shadowy so we can fill our own ideas into the blank spot which is the dead wife
morderwarg 10 months ago
Just an observation here. The Women in Refrigerators trope should only be valid for female characters that were not created so that they could provide a dramatic death. Green Lantern's girlfriend only existed so that she might die. Women in Refrigerators is valid for Lian Harper and Spoiler/Batgirl. As for Gwen Stacy, well, the writers at the time said she was going nowhere - and indeed, she was less interesting than MJ. Might as well provide a classic story.
MrColuber 10 months ago
@MrColuber No it shouldn't. It also shows how careless writers are with all their female characters and inherently treat them all as disposable. They would never rape or leave permanently crippled Batman and other beloved male role models- they are sacred, untouchable by the deep shaming and sexual violence and any in any hardship they suffer through they must come out with strength and integrity. Women are violated and degraded in their physical and mental integrity on a daily basis.
CelebrenIthil 9 months ago
@MrColuber Also, there are other ways to take a "boring" love interest out of a story than brutal murder. There is this thing calling breaking up and coming merrily on their separate way, that happens all the time in the real world. We shouldn't be stuck so often with the crass mentality of "Let's brutally murder her! It'll give the male protagonist a deep and brooding storyline and we can replace her by a brand new better sparklier chick! High fives all around!"
CelebrenIthil 9 months ago 3
Ok, but can we talk about how often Joss Whedon uses the trope of having women be raped/taken advantage of in order to "empower them?" Maybe not literally like in the case of Dollhouse, but Buffy, Cordelia, River-- all are female characters who have in some way had their bodies altered without their consent in a symbolic "rape." Buffy's Slayer powers, Cordelia's "headaches," River's entire brain. And none of that is empowering to them at all, it's just angst fodder. For a largely male audience.
nosleepinheaven 10 months ago 5
@MisterAvailable:I and many other feminists, no doubt including feministfrequency, are well aware of the history of the feminist movement. If feminism from the 70s had really entered comic books, how do you explain the fact that this trope has been played out so often in comic books decades after the fact? And while you are well aware about the oppression of women, would you rather we didn't talk about it? Who cares if this is a "repetition", it's still happening and bears talking about.
MsGuessit 10 months ago
I completely forgot that Stephanie got killed at one point. And I had no idea Big Barta got killed at all, but killed by some common enemy no less with no struggle? That's like a field mouse killing a Bengal tiger with one little nibble. Barta deserved better than that. Black Cat is one of my favorite Marvel characters ever, and I always enjoy it when she's well written (Kevin Smith's portrayal of her was great), but her back story of being violated wasn't necessary.
darkmoose84 10 months ago
Lisbeth Salander is the perfect anti-women-in-the-fridge trope! Haha, she's a defrosted woman! Fuck yeah
avitalthealien 10 months ago
I have to quibble with a handful of points. First and foremost, there are comic writers who write women as well rounded characters, notably the original compiler of the WiR list, Gail Simone. Second, Stephanie Brown did die that way, but was brought back as Batgirl afterward, becoming extraordinarily popular in the process, at the expense of an Asian Batgirl. Her death was a motivator in the Asian Batgirl's story. Finally, Fable 2 allows you to select the gender of the protagonist.
Vermilionone 10 months ago 2
@Vermilionone Whoawhoa, Cassandra Cain was totally character-derailed by One Year Later long before Stephanie came back from the dead. And that whole Cass leading the League of Assassins BS totally pissed off fans, this one included. As they developed the Cass/Steph relationship waaay back in the Batgirl series, I really wanted to see a Cass/Batwoman Steph/Robin team-up, even as a AU. Hasn't happened, still disappointed.
Kestra84 10 months ago
I hope that you do a segment on "torture porn" in movies. I am really disturbed by the sheer number of torture porn flicks out there--they seem so outdated and yet they're extremely popular with teenage males. At least in comic books the female victims die for some plot purpose; in the movies they die to fulfill the sicko fantasies of the movie maker.
karacherith 10 months ago 4
It did kind of surprised me that these comics would actually glorify sexual violence especially since many of the consumers are very young. I always thought most of the sexist images might be in manga because I know Japanese artists are notorious for infantalizing women in their manga. Moreover I've taken an interest in Catwoman a couple years ago, but she was never popular like batman :(. Maybe this video might explain why
ix3bumblebeetuna 10 months ago 2
Thank you for this great information. It's something we know, but don't know. We feel there's something wrong with all the portrayals of women as dead bodies, but can't put it into words. You just gave us the tools so thank you very much!
nourights 10 months ago
Yes Barbara Gorden got shot an paralyzed but in effect that created one of THE MOST AWESOME FEMALE SUPER HEROES OF ALL TIME!!! Oracle!!
LimeySnee 10 months ago
@LimeySnee Completely agree. They shouldn't have killed her off; hope they bring her back soon.
darkmoose84 10 months ago
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?! BIG BARDA?!?! REALLY!?!?! Ugh...I SO wish I didn't know Big Barda got killed off. >_>V
ToruKun1 10 months ago
Feministfrequency, you need to see the spartacus blood and sand series. I guarentee your eyes will twitch.
dagodfada22 10 months ago
I can see how you would get a lot of slack for something like this. I'm not what I'd class as a 'feminist' more someone whom hopes many things against all genders will change with awareness....yet this is a very interesting point on a subject we wouldn't often look into....It makes you think and THAT is what is important!
Ossiachan 10 months ago
I love these 'trope' segments. They're very cool, and well thought out.
Silverkit33 10 months ago 5
As much as I think pointing out sexism in pop culture is important, are you at all active in the political side of things? For instance, congress is trying to defund Planned Parenthood. There a dozens of bills right now that seriously curtail women's reproductive rights.
Dagyo23 10 months ago
Perfect! One of your most interesting video analysis.
Lelablue 10 months ago
While I agree with the video, and while I hate this trope, I believe mentioning Barbara Gordon was certainly unfair. The paraplegic plot twist wasn't something bad for the character, not at all. She was good as a Batgirl, but she became much more stronger and important to the story as Oracle than she ever was as a Batgirl. She became a leader and a awesome fictional exemple not only for strong, inteligent woman, but also for handicapped people, you know? :P
marysullivan 10 months ago 22
@marysullivan This is a pretty good point as she seemed to be one of the few female comic characters to bounce back from her affliction and establish an identity beyond "the girl the joker shot".
However I think the video was making the point of how Batman, a male, shrugs off getting his goddamn back broken like nothing happened while Gordon is paralyzed for life, being the delicate little female flower she is *hurgh*
More a reflection of how women in comics are "weaker" than their male cohorts.
malleableconcrete 10 months ago
@malleableconcrete And a good point that was, however awesome Barbara Gordon turned out to be as the Oracle.
This indirectly shows how dumbass american super heroes comics are in defending the status quo, by hand-waving miraculous super-hero recoveries/ressurection.
Aside from Jean Grey, I really can't remember a lot of females supers who came back from comic heaven's revolving door.
cormano64 9 months ago
@marysullivan I think her note of bringing up Barbara Gordon was not to say what happened to her was bad, but rather to contrast it with the situation of Batman later suffering just as severe (if not more so) of a spinal injury, but coming back fully healthy. If Batman had suffered a permanent injury like Barbara Gordon and had to reinvent himself that would have been awesome, but no. He goes back to normal, and only Batgirl has to change. What's the difference here? Gender of the character.
puellanivis 4 months ago in playlist Weitere Videos von feministfrequency 3
@marysullivan The problem is how much it doesn't make sense in a universe with such a wide array of amazing technology and powers for this one character to be singled out for permanent disability when such an enormous number of male superheros recover fully from significantly worse injuries on a regular basis.
bloodyinkpen 4 months ago 4
While I agree that WiR is a problem, I think that Gwen Stacey and Barbra Gordon were pretty poor examples.
TheHarlequinHatter 10 months ago
Love the video. Just to correct something though, you can actually choose to be a woman (main character) in Fable II.
freezesucker13 10 months ago 4
Though I do agree that Barbara Gordon getting shot in the spine by the Joker in Killing Joke was a fridging of the character, I totally disagree that DC dropped the ball on healing her. I think she's much better off as Oracle, and fills a very important role in the comics. Not only is she now defined in more ways than just her ass kicking potential, she's still a very strong and independent woman, who still has an active love life with Dick Grayson (Nightwing/Batman II)
razieldumas 10 months ago
Ok, these "tropes" that you are doing have rapidly become one of my favorite parts of your channel. They are very well done, and I eagerly await the others.
There's something particularly... euchh. About superheroines getting raped. It's like a reminder, "She maybe a super-woman, but she's still a WOMAN. See look, we'll put her in her place."
VioletDrow 10 months ago 51
I'm really into this series! Although, in terms of Dead Men Defrosting, a really good female example is Buffy, who dies twice, heroically in the second instance, and comes back both times, although arguably in the second instance, much less better than she left.
sleepswthghosts 10 months ago
buffy comes back and is continually awesome, but joss whedon is cool that way...
Meliasaurus 10 months ago
what about jean gray/pheonix :D
Meliasaurus 10 months ago
I love your videos. Keep up the great work!!!
SimonCharlie87 10 months ago
Anita, great video! You're doing an AWESOME job with Feminist Frequency. This video is certainly one of the best you've made. Keep up with your channel. We really need women like you speaking out there. Thank you so much for sharing with us!
overainbows 10 months ago
I thought that this was interesting, but you missed quite a few relevant details that could partially explain the existence of such a trope. For example, most wars throughout history have been fought by men (even now, there are places in which women are not allowed to join the army), often based on a desire to protect the women and children with whom they are associated. Think about Helen of Troy - she may be a myth, but her story is rather refrigerator-y.
(...etc.)
moscowmasha 10 months ago
Definitely why I always loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Essentially, a female superhero, who dies TWICE, I'd like to remind you, who always comes back. :D Heck yes.
SmileyIfSinging 10 months ago
As always great work. While I wasn't a fan of Barbara Gordon getting paralyzed and not being Batgirl, it allowed her to become a hugely influentical and positive role model for girls and the differently abled. So much so that there was fan outcry to the idea of undoing her paralysis a few years ago.
For an example of a superheroine getting a heroic, fighting send off death, refer to Supergirl in Crisis on infinite Earths. She went out swinging, and she was mourned, not just WIR'd.
ArcaneSky 11 months ago
The problem is that many writers follow tradition rather than thinking for themselves and approaching characters from a clean slate, and applying the same principles to characters regardless of sex. I noticed, when reading comics, as a kid, that the male characters got to do 90% of the heroic deeds, whereas the female characters were often peripheral; in the five man band, the woman often has no clearly defined role. In Halo Reach, everyone who dies, dies heroically, except the woman, Kat.
Relugus 11 months ago
The worst thing with comics is often the characters switching hands. You'll have women being written really well and not getting fridged, then another writer will pick up the story and screw it up (often just because they want to get rid of characters they don't like). I remember the wir site having a few authors talking about how much they hated what later writers did to their characters. :/
Cidsa2 11 months ago
I would really appreciate if at some point Feminist Frequency actually lived up to it's name and started *subtitling it's videos*. Accessibility for disabled people is a feminist issue, too.
MsGodlessHeathen 11 months ago 9
@MsGodlessHeathen All my videos (except this one) are captioned, with transcripts available. This is the only one that I haven't had a chance to subtitle yet but I definitely will. Many of my videos are also available in other languages. I agree, online accessibility is of critical importance.
feministfrequency 10 months ago 50
@MsGodlessHeathen Just an update, I was having technical problems with my subtitler (hence the delay) but one of my viewers subtitled it into English and Polish.
feministfrequency 10 months ago 14
However, I feel like people are being hard to please. The death of a female character isn't ALWAYS being thrown into a fridge. When it's a pointless character, like the sister in Fable, it counts. Same for GL's girlfriend. And, ugh. Don't get me started on Sue Dibny.
Consider Aunt May's death back in #400. That was a touching, sweet death, done just how it should have been. (And, for the record, she's proof that sometimes the girls are the only ones that get to defrost.) RIP Ben.
ThrashMcTowson 11 months ago
God, I was so angry when they killed of Libby, Shanon, and Ana Lucia for absolutely no reason except for male character development on Lost. I fucking loved Ana Lucia, she's still my favorite Lost character.
kiplinggorilla 11 months ago
THANK YOU for including Heroes. That bothered me so much I stopped watching--also notice how for most of the first season Claire was an object to be saved, the second season she was an object to be protected (a vehicle for her power). She was almost a MacGuffin. And she was main cast!
djchristopherblue 11 months ago
The TV show Supernatural is a big offender in regards to this trope. The main characters' mother, Sam's girlfriend, the various women Sam/Dean have sex with . . . they all die to further the storyline of John, Sam, and Dean. =/
AleezaChocolat 11 months ago
All right look I know I've commented on this a lot, I get how this could be a problem for superheroes who are supposed to be powerful (at least when done en masse) but if it's for minor characters with no powers who get written in specifically to provide backstory (God Of War) what's the problem?
FatherTime89 11 months ago
So do you think it's ever appropriate to use a woman being killed to drive someone else's story? Is it better if it's driving a female's story?
FatherTime89 11 months ago
One more thing, if the death of a women is treated as an important event that drives a character to do something big how is it being treated flippantly?
FatherTime89 11 months ago
Does Kratos' family count as women in fridges? He was the one that was tricked into killing them?
FatherTime89 11 months ago
Its interesting that you mention how these superheroines' deaths are framed as "random" or "meaningless". It reminds me of a similar (lack) of explanation you'll find in the media when it comes to discussing the actions of heterosexual male serial killers that only target women. Rather than address the murders as a misogynist expression, they're described as "without motive" & therefore "unexplainable", instead of a systemic problem that continues because it is simply too "random" to look into
whatywhaty 11 months ago
you're oh so intelligent and one of my very favorite feminist figures, you go girl~*~*.
leah331 11 months ago
Awesome job! I don't read comix, but I fully support your view that they are all just reflections of the world we live in. Keep up the great work.
lcrippin 11 months ago
i think in part in perpetuates because writers are afraid of "deviating" from the traditional heteronormative binaries in one way or the other we need new example of relationships non normative heterosexuality complex same sex relationships and geniune female strength. id love to see a story where superman is sexually assaulted and Big Barda comes to save him!!! just to fuck with the patriarchy!!!! lmao (i need to make some slasher comics)
PimpMyParadigm 11 months ago
So glad you made a video of this trope. Great as always - typo "males" at 340ish.
scrumpleberry 11 months ago
I hate women in refrigerators troupe.
It's one of the things that infuriates me in different mediums.
Here's hoping Dove during Brightest Day escapes it.
cafeterialoca 11 months ago 4
I'd like to counter this with Hope Summers.
Look that character up.
ZomgLolPants 11 months ago
I see nothing at all wrong with killing males OR females to advance the story arc of a main character. This is done all the time in fiction. It's an essential, irreplaceable tool for driving character motivation and garnering empathy from readers.
That said, the sheer -amount- of women who die to advance male MC arcs in comics and in other artistic media (not to mention the degrading, sexualizing way they often are) is atrocious, and on that note you're absolutely right.
Forehead2Brick 11 months ago 6
I'm not saying this video is wrong or anything, but the whole thing surrounding Barda's death was poorly written and a travesty. Not only her, but all of the New God characters. The writer used them to throw in his own personal grim-gritty anti-religion manifesto. Barda and Scott had an great relationship in comics. Stephanie Brown DID come back 'like the men' strong then before. Just because some of these comics are chauvinistic doesn't mean all are, nor does it mean all women are degraded.
Palavenger 11 months ago
What made Kyle Rayner's girlfriend's death especially offensive is that she died almost immediately after being introduced.
That's right, the ONLY reason that she existed was to get killed and thus give Kyle Rayner some more 'depth.'
razieldumas 11 months ago 4
your lucidity is inspiring. this situation in the comic world is easily traslated into actual reality by seeing how women's careers can be easily sacrificed for the benefit of men's developement.
guin80 11 months ago 6
Coming in as a comic book fan, there are a few facts that I could nitpick here and there. But the fact that killing female characters simply to further a male character's story arc is so commonplace is something that I have long believed to be a massive failing on the part of DC and Marvel. Also, I do have to add one fairly recent example that may be the most irksome of all.
In Cry for Justice, Roy Harper's daughter Lian was killed off for the sake of cheap drama. She wasn't even a teenager.
Teckniphobia 11 months ago
Even when not being raped/killed/both, female characters are still being used as automatons to further predominately male narratives (Scott PIlgrim vs The World anyone? The movie, not the comic). You see this in everything from comics to music videos. And nobody seems to be doing a damn thing about it! Thank you, Anita Sarkessian, for fighting the good fight and continuing to put the word out on these shameful practices.
EmpressJudge13 11 months ago 6
Oh one other thing I should say about Barbara DC recently was going to restore her to her Batgirl role, but there was a huge backlash because a lot of people think she's a better character as Oracle and DC originally promised not to de-pralyze her till it was possible with real world medicine. I do think DC is the most women friendly of the mainstream comic companies with several women friendly books, but they still have problems.
PetiteOzma 11 months ago
Everything about this except the inclusion of Fable II is excellent.
TheCah13 11 months ago
You keep challenging me... I'm a writer, and lately your videos are on my mind when I write... Thank you for that.
-Inbar.
inbach 11 months ago 4
I read quite a few comic books. You know what bugs me even more then WiR? The fact that all the women dress like complete sluts. Like, they're fighting crime, why don't they wear clothing that will protect then?
iwantcandy2 11 months ago
i'm not a big reader of comics, but i see a certain explanation for why female heroes are more "disposable", (yet it's no excuse):
a common trend in comics is to offer out of the blue a female version of a given popular character...making the essencial work of fleshing out the personality, background, etc,. a hasty and sloppy one.
when the trend passes, they have a female super hero that was never ment to be more than a hot body set to go out in "style"...tortured or killed in the kitchen.
attffgg 11 months ago
I agree on the message of this video but just as a small note you can choose to be a girl in Fable II and in that case it is the boy the one you have to avenge. About comic books, I would like to be able to read any and find a female superhero without huge boobs, seriously, I'm a guy and I do enjoy erotic women images but even I dislike when all the heroines have impossible cup sizes and sport ridiculously tight and/or small costumes.
WarioDuke 11 months ago
@WarioDuke I'd like to suggest maybe look into Alan Moore's "Promethea" and Jenny Sparks from Wildstorm's "The Authority."
ChannelNumberKyle 11 months ago
@ChannelNumberKyle I've heard about the first, thanks for the suggestions, I will look them up.
WarioDuke 11 months ago
i really like how you give specific examples to prove your point.
you seemed to know a lot about comics, do you read them?
OMFGrachell1396 11 months ago
As comics are often written by men about male protagonists the logic goes: why did protagonist go crazy/vengeful > something REALLY bad happened to loved one > can be parent, love interest or sibling - all have a high chance of being female but girlfriend is easiest. Seems to be more lazy writing than sexiest.
danc909 11 months ago
I'm a giant comic book nerd and I was supremely pissed at the seemingly cavalier way they dispensed of Batgirl-Stephanie. ugh ugh ugh.
Good comic book heroines who DON'T DIE:
Kabuki by David Mack
Strangers in Paradise (Katchoo) by Terry Moore
uh... if I think of any more I'll let you know.
turtlewings 11 months ago
Samus Aran. One badass female hero.
Hankdrive 11 months ago
Okay, so I am not trying to dismiss anything you say, but Fable II is one of my favorite games, and I just want to point out you can play as a male OR female. And while both times you are avenging your younger sister, when playing as a female I'm not sure your theory holds for this game.
rehtakine 11 months ago
How about how the superhero families always have the male being super strong. Why can't there be a woman with super strength?
jaidadraco 11 months ago 6
This trope has always annoyed me, not just from a feminist perspective, but from a writing point of view 'cause there are thousands of other ways for a character to become complex. Maybe the characters' vengeance is for selfish reasons? Maybe they just want political equality for their people? Maybe their relationship with their enemy is more than just a feud? It's okay to be creative, you know. :)
FantasmaLuna 11 months ago 9
Wow, feminists are ALWAYS teaching me something new. I swear it.
Frankly, I never liked comic books due to the exaggerated busts and catering to men. My friend, David, was outraged when he discovered that The Alchemist (A book he loved!) came out as a graphic book but, instead of being what he was excited to see, all he noticed was just EXAGGERATEDLY busty women... even the ones who were supposed to be modest and innocent. A pity cause I looked forward to buying that graphic "novel." *sigh* >.<
YourDarkAccomplice 11 months ago 2
Not all comic books are like bad "Superhero" comics. You only shine a light on one type of comic and that is unfortunate. Comics have a variety of types and genres. for the Superhero genre there are many great writers with a passion, who show the appropriate respect for comics. Writers who do put out good stories and avoid tropes like these will get the respect they deserve if people like you use your voice to promote them. Gail Simone is a comic book writer, why not list some of her books?
puklop 11 months ago 2
@puklop this video is the second in a series about tropes in the media that denigrate women. She used comics as the medium, but also referenced TV and video games. It was clearly not an attack of the comic book industry, just this trope. In her MPDG video she didn't list the countless movies that don't use that trope.
loveincommunication 11 months ago
@puklop The video barely acknowledges that Gail Simone writes comics herself.
BetNoire 11 months ago
When I saw the title of this video, my first thought was "that sounds like Green Lantern #54."
TheEthicalEgoist 11 months ago
I think if there had ever been a mainstream strong Super woman out there where she would never have to fear a thing like rape or abuse from a man more women would have hope out there and less men would feel like the most powerful superior humans comics and video games make them to be. I'm sure there are some like that but those girl heroes are usually tied up in some romance..
xKeehl 11 months ago 3
I created a blog for myself I eventually plan to host vlogs on and right now do reviews and articles called "out of the fridge" I once did a look at Alan Moore's work. You wouldn't believe it but I got a huge backlash from people who accept that WiR is a problem but feel in no way does Barbara's crippling and implied rape fit because it drove home his point effectivly,she became more interesting as Oracle. I contrasted to Knightfall, Moore didn't write Oracle, and even he said it was a mistake
PetiteOzma 11 months ago
@PetiteOzma While what happened to Barbara did "fit" with the Joker and all, it is still a case of WiR. Though I am of the opinion that she is a more useful, more interesting, character as Oracle, that doesn't take away the case of WiR that led her there.
ChannelNumberKyle 11 months ago
I might have to watch this video again, because my head is still reeling around the fact that Big Barta was killed. Who kills Big Barta?! Why does it make it seem like she went grocery shopping in her super suit and came home to be surprised and killed by what seems to be a gun? It's all ridiculous.
babileilei 11 months ago
@babileilei Big Barda was killed by the Infinity Man who was acting on behalf of the Source (basically God/the Universe Itself/the Ultimate Power, etc).
Her and Mister Miracle were often seen in their normal suburban home while wearing their costumes, from what I recall.
ChannelNumberKyle 11 months ago
@babileilei Let's also be reminded that Big Barda was also the sexual plaything of one of the villains and she is DENIED revenge by Superman, and then the villain escapes. Which also shows that women don't deserve revenge if it inconveniences a male character.
Maverynthia 11 months ago 37
One correction Stephanie Brown was not yet Batgirl when she was killed; she's been brought back and has only recently become Batgirl and her series is awesome, a title where she thinks creativly, has fun and has several great supporting female cast members. Also It would have been nice if you used an example where a female character death was treated properly like Supergirl's one one one battle witht the Antimonitor in the Crisis.
PetiteOzma 11 months ago
i feel like there isn't anything left in the world that i can enjoy without noticing the sexism/bigotry/speciesism/etc. it's an unfortunate reality.
yoshiphones 11 months ago 7
@yoshiphones I feel the exact same way. I turn off more movies and TV shows because of this every day. It drives my boyfriend nuts when I constantly point these things out and then it just bothers me that he doesn't recognize his own privilege. He's learning, though.
lucifer1343 11 months ago
@lucifer1343 It's a never-ending battle right? But you're right about the privilege part, because I am certain that that is why they don't like critically looking at things. If it doesn't effect them directly, why should they care? They enjoy watching things that represent them and make them feel strong and empowered, and do not want to be told the ways that women and other marginalized people are constantly degraded in the media. I think that is why there is always a backlash too.
passionalist 11 months ago 3
@passionalist There's a backlash because people don't like it when their favorite things are accused of sexism, that and they may just disagree.
FatherTime89 11 months ago
The last time I was able to identify myself with a female hero without the constant fear of something morbid like that coming her way was back in the good'ol days of Xena. It would be nice to relive that experience, but blood and bare breasts sell, so I remain afraid. Very afraid...
MitsosMitsoulas 11 months ago
I like these videos and all, but I must admit I laughed when I saw the title of this video.
I mean, Women in refrigerators!? It´s just so... bizarre!
DesignatedMember 11 months ago
Gail Simone is a genius and hands-down my favorite writer in comics. She writes every character with respect and dignity and it results in amazing, powerful, and consistently good stories. I think everyone should take a page from her book before sitting down to write a comic, because if comics were able to hold reader interest with good content alone maybe we wouldn't need sensationalistic surprise deaths to spike sales.
tozzip 11 months ago 4
Video Game example = Dom's wife in Gears of War 2. He even finds her in a refrigerator shaped box.
TRyanArnold 11 months ago
While I think this is a great point, and hits home for me closer than your other videos as comics is the medium I spend most of my time with, I feel something was overlooked here. That this video would just warn off more women from reading comics, and there's already a more subtle gendered backlash that should be addressed as comics are considered a boys club. There are many great comics with strong female characters, I would implore you to promote them and not just bash those who don't.
agent42q 11 months ago 2
I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but in a literary sense (especially in a genre as violent as superhero fiction) I think murder and death should be displayed as sudden, senseless, disturbing and unglamorized. This is Murder we're talking about here after all. And isn't it worse if a supporting character dies and it doesn't forward the plot and help develope the main character's character arc? That would seem like a worse literary crime.
puggapugga 11 months ago
i love this. i wish more female superheroes would be created that haven't been inspired to fight crime because they were sexually violated :\
mooradleyy 11 months ago 68
@mooradleyy You are right, it's sad when violence on women is presented as a kind of heroic martyrdom. What message does this send out? "Look here girls, you may be violated and get the shit beat out of you, but it will turn you into a better person and give a meaning to your existence!"
MitsosMitsoulas 11 months ago 4
@mooradleyy If only we could fave comments, I'd fave yours.
UniversalKiwi 11 months ago
@mooradleyy If I had been sexually violated, I would turn into a super villan, seeking revenge. That would be far more logical, not to mention interesting. Villains are very powerful characters too.
MissAnitaSow