Micheli report gives 106 pages of evidence; for why Judge Micheli indicted them and made them stand trial.
Massei report (out March) will be the reasoning for their conviction.
These are available to the public from the government website. So the Italian system is incredibly open and just!
The media is not a source of reliable information; this case is an example of pure media spin. If you are interested in the truth primary sources are the best place to look to find the facts, not spin.
Maybe you can answer key questions....Nara (Capazari?) a so called key witness who heard the scream and saw people running away was never interviewed by police itself. The police saw her statement on tv ( see 48 hours investigation on my channel's fav) Also no phone records between Amanda,Sollecito and Guede exist whatsoever....How does that make for the theory of the prosecution?
- cleaning up a crime scene? work your way backwards to the exit
-Guede's DNA SHOULD be all over the room - he was on a date.
- touching an object doesn't leave DNA; needs to be HELD, GRIPPED, RUBBED on. Perpetrators were probably holding knives remember? They probably changed victims clothes too- body/room WAS manipulated - washing machine on with M's clothes.
- knife had EXACT match of Meredith's DNA. That's all that counts
Nara Capezzali is a key witness in this case: of course she was interviewed by police and prosecution.
48 hours is an one-sided video made by CBS, a media outlet with close connections with the PR company working for the Knoxes.
The absence of phone records was explained by Paolo Micheli in his report (if you would have read it you would know): the police had confiscated Guede cell phone on Oct 28. Guede had no phone but he was a small time drug dealer living nearby...
Question following. Is there proof that Guede had any connection to Rs and AK? other than cellphone records and other than hanging out with the guys downstairs?
I've never been to Perugia, but people who live there and judge Michele said it is a very small town and in the center everybody "know" and "meet" each other...
Guede lived very close to Sollecito and Knox. He was a small time drug dealer and the other 2 were drug users.
He played basket in a court close to the pub where Knox worked and used to go there...
In his report, judge Micheli analyses this issue very well too! He also gave an interview to an Umbrian newspaper about it.
Nara Capezzali was gaged by the police at the time of the documentary because she was a witness. She refused to talk to the interpreter she spoke to her through a window and didn't say much.
48 hours showed part of an interview Nara gave to the Italian TV and all she said in the interview was that she heard a loud and disturbing scream and people running in different directions.
48 hours tried to interview her but she DID NOT talk to them. Ciolino said she was behind a window talking to a translator HAHAHA
Nobody "saw" or "heard" the invisible Nara's answer in Italian. The "interpreter"'s translation is totally IRRELIABLE since it was not backed up!
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Also, when you go clean up a crimescene, unless you are in total isolated gear you inevitably will bring in more DNA into the crime scene through hairs, fingerprints etc. Did they ever find anything else but a mob and bucket ?
-Washing machine on with Meredith's clothes inside
-No track between the bloody footprint on the bath mat and Meredith's room: evidence of a clean up
-Meredith's body had been covered after blood dried up - very unlikely Guede would have stayed at the crime scene waiting for the blood to dry up- he was seen dancing on discos and then left for Germany...
-The corpse had been manipulated - Meredith's bra was removed later to point at the sexual nature of the crime.
-the break in had been staged and there was no sign of Guede in the room with the broken window but there was a bloody footprint of Knox in the room revealed by luminol and -again- without no trail leading to it.
-the window was broken from the inside: the shutters made impossible to break the window from outside and pieces of glass were on top (not underneath) the clothes spread on the floor to simulate a break-in. No valuables were taken.
-knox has no alibi whatsoever and all her statements have been disproved by phone + internet + computer records, witnesses and her own contradictory statements
-she was taken by surprise by police
-she clearly knew how Meredith had died even before the police (several witnesses): sexual assault - not even the pathologist knew it for sure), that she died a slow and painful death (before the autopsy results were given to police) and so on.
@crispiva1 Meredith's cell phones were taken and then thrown in the bushes. Rudy stole cell phones and a laptop from a law firm in Perugia.
Why didn't the rock dent the shutters if it bounced off them?
Amanda's luminol footprints were not tested for blood. If you look it up, luminol reacts to bleach. Amanda took a shower and people clean their showers with bleach.
A cleanup of the crime scene would be exposed by huge sweeping swathes of luminol all over the floor.
Not sure what planet some of you are living on. The break-in was not staged and the bloody footprint belong to Rudy...he admitted it was his. Yes valuables were taken - they found two of Meridith's cell phones in a park about 10 minutes walk from where Rudy Guede lived. And for those who say they "cleaned up"...yup they cleaned up their own DNA and left only the DNA belonging to Rudy...you know, because that's really possible. But by all means, don't let the facts get in the way.
@crispiva1 If Amanda and Raffaele removed Meredith's bra at a later time, why is Guede's DNA all over the cut and bloody bra strap? (Massei Report p. 43) And I love how you almost excuse Guede's actions that night. Don't you find it rather callous that he went dancing immediately after he found Meredith dying?
It's almost like you're saying, "he didn't stage this alleged staged break-in, so he's not as despicable as the other two. He must have a conscience." He went freaking disco hopping.
And how is it that IF four people had an extensive fight with Meredith, not one shred of evidence of DNA was found of AK and RS in that particular room? Nevertheless Guedes DNA was all over the room. Its one thing to 'clean up the crime scene but it has to be done in gear in order to not leave NEW DNA.
It is very easy to clean everything and leave only bloody prints which are visible, especially if taking the necessary precautions.
Knox also happened to forget her black lamp inside Meredith's room - the only lamp available in her own bedroom. She needed to see extra well while cleaning up.
It was probaly the reason why she and Sollecito were trying to break down the door when the police arrived: to retrieve the lamp they had forgotten inside after locking the door and getting rid of the key!
@crispiva1 That's bull. Amanda was able to sort out which blood was Rudy's and know for certain her dna was in no way mixed in with Rudy's during this attack, she was able to wipe up every trace of herself from the room and then she's stupid enough to leave her freaking lamp there?
Meredith probably borrowed it from her for something. Halloween was only a couple of days prior.
@crispiva1 Okay. How did she clean up the INVISIBLE DNA belonging to herself and Sollecito? With an electron microscope? How did she know her and Raffaele's dna wasn't mixed with Rudy's? There was not a trace of her in Meredith's room.
@crispiva1 Luminol revealed footprints in the hallway that were tested for DNA and not for blood. The only prints they were able to identify in the room belonged to Rudy Guede.
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Also, bleach is used to kill salmonella on knifes. The indication that the knife was cleaned with bleach does not indicate anything, especially since the police admitted that the knife does not fit the wounds.
Thank you. Dutch is my native tongue but I married an American and my husband has always enjoyed teaching me words I and most other people had never heard of. Just for fun...But thanks for the great compliment. I love this language.
The maid working at Sollecito's flat said in her testimony that she had received specific instructions not to use bleach - it is very dangerous for the environment.
The knife was not only bleached but also very well scrubbed... was as shiny as newly polished silver!
Sorry I just realized that one of my replies was missing...
I read through the page you sent me, about Knox's conflicting alibis - I think in itself this is proof of KNox's involvement in the murder.... She may have thought it was funny when she was high...
Would you agree at this stage that the evidence is substantial and that the media have seriously withheld significant facts - especially the AMerican media - hoping to raise questions on her conviction..
It is not reasonable to have the jury sequestered for 10 months and I do not believe that any jury is ever fully sequestered.
In any case in the Italian system the Jury (2 judges and 4 lay men) have to provide a report with their reasoning. This means that they can only refer to the facts presented in court as to why AK and RS were found guilty. This report much like the Micheli Report is then made public.
I believe the system is a lot more transparent and cannot be influenced like the OJ trial
I'm nit following your line of reasoning. I'll have to go back and check the times.
It seems however that there is so much evidence that it can no longer be explained away with such hypothetical reasoning etc the analysis seems to be derida style lol so that we cannot accept even what the CCTV shows. Of this were the only true link I would agree that it causes doubt but there is an iverwhelming amount if links that it would be fantasy to dismiss them as coincidence etc
It couldnt have been Laura, she was in Rome. It couldnt have been Filomena, she was staying with her boyfriend. It was very unlikely that it was Rudy Guede, all proofs of his presence were left untouched."
Why is Filomena's alibi that she was with her boyfriend satisfying to the police but Knox's wasn?
All the house mates were under suspicion. But I am guessing that the conflicting stories about their affairs the night MK was murdered is what raised alarm bells on RS and AK.
Filomena and her bf had solid evidence of what they had done that night.
Knoxs DNA (from epithelial cells) was found on the knife sheath, and close to the blade junction. It was not possible to ascertain both the haematic and epithelial source of Merediths DNA on the knife blade, due to the scarcity of the sample. But Judge Micheli noted that reasonable doubt persist that blood could have been present also."
It was consistent with the deep and fatal wound on MK's neck.
But there was apparently another smaller knife that was used. This appears consistent with the fact that RG was known to carry a small knife on his person at all times.
The facts all add up... reading the facts leaves me with no doubt, although I cannot assemble the details of the case and I dont believe that there was a sex game as such. I think it was just an attack...
I have a hard time believing the sex game. Maybe thats why I am so suspicious of all together. I do believe Knox saw something or was part of this but I haven't made up my mind as of yet because I don't want others to tell me how it is. I want to review all of what you reviewed myself. And what I pity is the sensationalism surrounding this case which makes it harder to to allow for people to make up their own mind. Does that make sense?
Also when I read on Knoxs various statements , first thing came to mind is the Trauma induced amnesia. My first impression of this case: she witnessed Meredith getting killed. Someone else brings it up on Truejustice.Its not that uncommon for people who witness traumatic events to not remember what happened or to give conflicting statements.
She may have been forced to participate in a killing after she walked into the scene and because of that tried to reajust the crimescene afterwards.
I need to read more and find out more in order to make up my mind. I prefer people would not stalk those who haven't yet and instead of attacking people would help them answer the questions that still remain for those that haven'r reviewed the case.
I think that assuming that she was forced to participate in the killing is really stretching into fantasy land. She did not seem distressed the next day for someone that had been forced to kill her flat mate and their were no bruises etc on her body. I think her angelic face is really giving you trouble.
Have you seen a picture of Lizzie Borden? She was acquitted because the jury could not believe a white pretty girl would kill. ANd she looks like Amanda (on a side note)
That was my mistake - there are 2 judges and 6 lay men.
AK and RS both claim that they were high on Cannabis. AK states this in her testimony which you can listen to on youtube... but I am not aware if they were tested ...
The more I read the more I think she is guilty nevertheless I am still wondering ...why? and how is it people who have no former records turn into muderers?
I think that drugs remove all logic MsDutchFox. I was really alarmed when I heard about this case. But when I was doing my law degree I came across some pretty bizarre cases even without drugs. I honestly think she has a psychological problem... I mean alarm bells should have started when her friends read her blogs on rape stories and sexual assaults.
It has been very nice discussing this case with you. I hope the judge and jury's reasoning clarifies for both of us any points that are vague.
Im also sorry to hear, thank God that there was someone there to help, still its something that no one can ever forget... The shock is what really stops a person from feeling the actual pain.
Yes but the problem is that she withdrew this statement and has resorted to lies and fabrications. The evidence points beyond doubt to her involvement so the jury convict. Now if she speaks up and tells the truth she may get a lesser sentence. But she wants to get away Scott Free! Also with all the media attention and FOA I think she will never tell us the truth about what happened to MK.
I have personally suffered from trauma induced amnesia, where I was the victim of the case and all I remembered were things in sections very much like AK's original confession. The UK police went on the make the same mistake and charged me. Probably because my story was not coherent... or maybe because the guy that assaulted me was from an influential family.
Regardless at this point I got a lawyer and the prosecution told the judge that the defendant 'me' was the victim.
What I am saying is the lawyers spoke to me and to the doctors about my injuries and then to psychologists and presented this to the prosecution and the judge. In a coherent manner that I could not have because I was in shock and frankly could not remember much at all.
AK's lawyers would have done the same with the facts - but the story her facts tell are that she participated in this murder. I am sure she does not remember the whole night, but the evidence tells the story itself.
I was assaulted when I was 16 but all that ever happened was a fight because my assaulter was interrupted by people passing by. I do remember how shocked I was and that it took everything out of me...
Its spreading the facts one person at a time, and if you still have your doubts then thats alright. But the jury convicted based on the facts. Its aggravating how the American media have been reporting this case. They want the PR machine to put pressure on the government to get her off this crime. I hope that this does not happen.
What I think is...the media wants to make a buck on a case that is a done deal! The more doubt the media can throw around,the more they can prolong the coverage and sell advertisement.
Trust me, i have lived long enough in this country to know.
Yes it is certainly all about money! But if the American public believe that she is innocent they will put pressure on the government - votes are politics and politics is money and power...
None of it is going to happen. If the U.S wanted to interfere they would have interfered in Italian law with the CIA trials!!!
Neverhteless I am disgusted with the sensationalism and the propaganda surrounding this case, the online intellectual dishonesty and integrity coming from ALL sides,especially from those who somehow think they have a monopoly on the truth and are despereate to force their opinion onto others without letting the facts speak for itself.
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Horrible ! But it does happen even in the plain light of day and most passerby don´t even notice. How did you shake him off ? Did he cover your mouth with his hand?
I think we need to put aside the prosecution's theories and scenarios and let the facts do the talking. There is no need for us to know what the details were and why they argued or why they stabbed her. The human mind is so complex that there are reasons beyond the scope of imagination and especially when there are drugs involved which remove all logic.
In any case if AK saw something she should really just come out and say it. If the story fits the evidence Im sure she will get more sympathy
Early on the morning of November 2nd, Signora Lana Biscarini received a bomb threat call made to her home at 5A Via Sperandio. (This later transpired to be a hoax.)'
Who made this call?
did someone wanted for Lana Biscarini to find that phone? I mean, when you get a scare....what was said on the phone to this lady?
This bomb scare thing was actually interesting for me also! No doubt it has been investigated by the defense but I have not come across any information... Id be happy if you let me know if you come across anything.
My very first problem with this case is that AK and her family and her legal team and the PR company they have hired have not yet after two years given a plausible story of where AK was the night of the murder.
All their stories have been disproved by the prosecution with evidence that does not lie. For instance phone records, internet logs and CCTV.
RS in his last statement claimed that AK left his house at 9pm and came back at 1am (murder time frame) leaving AK with no alibi.
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Lets get real here. I am in no way advocating for guilty people to walk around free.
You have a choice!
That of using your knowledge to explain why Knox and Sollecito are guilty in a civil manner. I can pick apart the Micheli report ,nevertheless all that is relevant are the facts and not the speculations.
What is it going to be?
Behaving like a kindergardener or behaving like an adult who is going to prove WITH REASON that his side is most likeley the right side?
! Peter Quennel who made it his hobby to go over the Micheli report must have some established weaknesses. Lets take a look at your source the Micheli report. To ensure accuracy please make sure I am reading the right report by sending the link. That would be greatly appreciated and it will eliminate confusion and assure we are looking at the exact same material. What do you say? Fair enough?
Judge Micheli was also the pre-trial judge who in October said there was enough evidence against Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito for them to be sent for trial. The prosecution alleges that Guede tried to sexually assault Ms Kercher while Mr Sollecito held her down and Ms Knox toyed with a knife against her throat, which she then used to stab her. Judge Micheli said he accepted that there was complicity between the assailants, but said some aspects of the prosecution reconstruction were fantasy.
Yes, it does seem that the investigative methods were sloppy and not all samples may be reliable (I acknowledge that there are some problems with the prosecutions case)."
If Amanda were innocent and truthful, wouldnt her hair three hours later look like it had been washed and blow dried that day? Look again at the photo posted above. It was taken about three hours after the alleged washing and blow drying. Is that the hair of a woman who washed and blow dried her hair three hours earlier?
this is from the Micheli report and THIS I find highly troublesome with regards its analysis.
Since the murder, Amandas behavior could certainly be questioned. Who does cartwheels at a police station during an investigation of their murdered roommate? What defendant wears a shirt to their murder trial that says All you need is love when the prosecution is trying to portray them as someone with out-of-control sexual behavior?
Who doesn't have a Tshirt with 'all you need is love' text and how often do you don a Tshirt without examining the text on it before you put it on from your closet.
Doing cartwheels might have been a great distraction under the circumstances. My gally, I used to be a gymnast myself and can totally relate to doing a cartwheel!
I don't know what kind of a disgusting household you run that there is so much blood around the bathroom that one may assume a murder! But most girls don't have such habbits
Accidents happen Ms Giselle. No need to become personal and again resort to adhom attacks.
If a minor razor cut can cause DNA blood evidence, so can any speck of blood coming from a womans period, especially when women suffer irregular periods.
So no Ms Giselle, your analysis I run a disgusting household does not hold up ( by the way that was another one of your adhom atacks.
You said that you regularly tell your husband that people will think he murdered you because of the state of your bathroom when you have your period!
This was to explain that Knox's bathroom may have had this situation - or at least Knox may have though so
Im trying to demonstrate that your arguments are fanciful
I dont know anyone that bleeds all over their bathroom and leaves it there - or anyone that would walk into a bloody bathroom and think "oh yeah she must be on her period"
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Luminol is a chemical that glows with a bluish light when it comes in contact with blood. It even reacts with years old traces of blood. An ultra-sensitive chemical, it can detect blood at one part per million. In simple language, this means that if there is even one drop of blood in 999,999 drops of water, luminol will glow. Hence, extensively used for criminal investigations, luminol has helped crack some pretty tricky cases of detection.
Yes your technical explanation of luminol is correct however the forensic scientists can infer from the glow of luminol when it comes in contact with blood whether or not the amount was efficacious.
The defense tried to argue that it may have been orange juice that Knox had stepped in. But this was rejected by scientists because the trained eye can infer from the colour of the glow that it was in fact blood.
Also the foot prints from the bedroom to the toilet are missing. Therefore the hall way must have been cleaned as it is difficult to imagine someone hovering over the hallway to the bathroom.
RS and AK were not finished cleaning when the police arrived. They were sitting outside with a mop and bucket. Therefore they may have cleaned the rest up if they were not stopped.
Did they actually find a mop and bucket? And also what I find so peculiar is where they left on their own outside when the police arrived? Since it is appearant that Sollecito only then called police?
When the police arrived they told them that the house appeared as though it had been broken into and that they had already called police. It appears that they called the police 20 min after this - so I imagine that they walked around with police
At this point AK told the police that MK always has her door room locked - this was a lie according to the two other flat mates.
Then at some point they went into Knox's room where they made phone calls to create alibis - but the CCTV camera gaveit away
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( I just want you to take this in consideration)
Victims of bloody, violent crimes cannot disappear without a trace that is the basic assumption on which crime scene investigators function. No matter how hard the murderer tries to clean up the blood and dispose of the body, some tell-tale traces of blood will remain. Tiny blood particles can cling to most surfaces for years on end, without ever being seen.
I understand that you enjoy forensics, but I am also open to all the rest of the evidence.
When you eliminate the impossible what you are left with, no matter how unlikely, is the answer.
Also the RS family are under investigation for trying to have police eliminate evidence etc I cannot help but wonder if this is why the DNA for this crime scene is missing.
There was no DNA from anyone else there and Rudy Guede could not have moved the body based on the timing
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See here is one of my problems....knowing Italy from the inside. And Crispi brought this up as well, the point of bribing police.
If theRS family think they can bribe the police, it kind of confirms my knowledge and understanding through my family on how police works in Italy. They are to be bribed and therefor not to be trusted. I mean this is one of my observations...
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he tricky thing about luminol is that substances (such as household bleach) other than blood may also cause luminol to glow. Hence, a glow merely reveals to investigators the possibility of blood in the area. An experienced investigator, by observing the speed of the chemical reaction can judge whether the substance was blood or something else. But in order to be absolutely sure that it was blood, other tests need to be run.
Once again "accidents can happen" you make it sound as if when you are on your period there is a tap of blood!
Or do you inadvertently wipe the floor with your pads? Or walk around dripping and just leave it till the next time the cleaner comes?
I just want to demonstrate how ridiculous your comments and arguments are! All fantasy arguments put forward by the defence, of course any woman on the jury would know this is not possible unless you live in a pig sty
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They are not ridiculous because of the very fact that it does happen in reality. Now I can go over my own experience but it is kind of gross and it will ( considering this crowd) be used in more adhom attacks. All I am saying is, any left over residue can be found at anybody's house even if there was a thorough cleanup especially when detected with luminol. I am trying to put this fact into perspective. I have noticed too many speculations that hve colored this case and made it into a circus.
All that I am stating is that when you walk into your house and the door is open and there is blood all over the bathroom - you dont think period blood...
At least Amanda did not because she called her other flat mates and she called RS and expressed her concern - she also was worried enough to call her mother (it was past midnight in the USA) and wake her to tell her that her house was broken into but she was alright.
Then she took a shower in that bathroom! Is this normal?
You never addressed any of the facts instead you resorted to all the things FOA and Knox PR keep going on about
1) Italy is corrupt and their legal system is a mess (Italy is in the EU and controlled by EU courts - no one else has a problem with their legal system)
2)The DNA was contaminated (this is a fantasy that the defence could not prove)
3) Anti Americanism! The classic point which is completely irrelevant and farcical
What about CCTV, Phone records, witnesses, blood, lies!?
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hat do you think of the trial against Amanda Knox that finished with a verdict that gave her 26 years of jail? Its a very questionable verdict based on circumstantial inferences from weak evidence. I dont believe it would have satisfied the United States requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt and of eliminating all reasonable inferences consistent with innocence.
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If the same trial for the same delict would have been done in a Us Court the verdict would have been different? It might have been different. American juries are also influenced by media coverage in high profile cases. One big difference is that the jurors would have been sequestered—that is kept isolated—during the case or at least during the deliberations. The trial would have also been far shorter in duration.
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Amanda Knox was declared guilty for the killing of her roommate Meredith in good part because of the fact that her dna was found on the knife but many observers in America object that the quantity of the dna wasn't enough for such a verdict. Can you please explain to the Italian public the issue of the quantity of the dna for the American law?
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There are several issues relating to the DNA. There is the quantity—that is, is there sufficient DNA on which to make a certain judgment of identification? Second, there is the quality of the DNA, which relates to the manner of collection, preservation and testing. And third, there is the issue of whether DNA could have gotten on the handle in an innocent fashion. Most recently, there have also been questions about the planting of DNA and even the fabrication of DNA.
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After the verdict one senator for the State of Washington accused the Italian judge and jury to be anti-American. Why some in the US had this impression? It does not sound like it reflects anti-Americanism to me. In my experience, most Italians seem to like Americans, especially Americans who come to Italy to study.
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Hillary Clinton said that she "will listen" any claim on the case. What can she do? Which kind of step can she make with Italy?
The Secretary of State, by expressing interest in the case, can increase the possibility that the appellate court will scrutinize this verdict with great care, because it realizes that the eyes of the world are on the Italian justice system.
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But Americans should not get a higher standard of justice than defendants from any other country, just because we are a powerful nation. To be fair, justice must be equal for all.
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In the US media the Amanda case was the story of an American girl wrongly punished by a corrupt system while for the Italian media she was a kind of Devil landed in Perugia that before killed and then wanted to escape justice. Why this case is making the emotions running so high between two countries that are so close?
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The emotions are high in this case because what happened to Amanda Knox is every American parents nightmare. Americans, particularly those with college aged children, identify with Amanda. And because the Italian system of justice is somewhat different from our own, many Americans have less confidence in its outcomes. B
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But all Americans and Italians have one hope in common: that when the case is decided by the higher courts, not only will justice actually be done but justice will also be seen by everyone to be done. Thats all that one can expect from any imperfect system of human justice.
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Professor Alan M. Dershowitz is Brooklyn native who has been called the nations most peripatetic civil liberties lawyer and one of its most distinguished defenders of individual rights, the best-known criminal lawyer in the world, the top lawyer of last resort,
Because the Senator you speak of is connected to FOA!
She tried to take the case to Senator Clinton who refused to get involved
BOTH ladies stated that the trial was FAIR !
A representative from the US consulate was present at all times and there was no cause for complaint
Only FOA and Knox PR are spinning lies
Also using anti Americanism as a point of argument! There was an Italian guy from a well connected family who is also convicted and in jail! NO there was not anti Americanism
1) DNA contamination around the world is a matter for the defence to prove. In this case there was NO evidence of contamination.
2)The reason the DNA on the knife is disputed is the defence in a tactical manoeuvre did not show up for the testing.
3) It is lucky that any DNA was found on the knife as it had been scrubbed (physical evidence of scratches) and bleached (also proven) shortly before police collected the item.
4) Raffaele confirmed that MK blood was on the knife using a lie to explan
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A recent popular TV show was a contest for two showgirl slots on a top satirical program. More than 5,000 women applied, and the prime requisites were perfect bodies and the ability to dance on tabletops.
Both on public television and on networks owned by Berlusconi, who also is a media tycoon, scantily dressed women can been seen — but rarely heard — on all types of programs, from quizzes to political talk shows.
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Showgirl As Role Model
Opinion polls indicate that the showgirl is the No. 1 role model for young Italian women, including 21-year-old student Livia Colarietti.
"If I were a little thinner, I would have joined the contest to become a showgirl," Colarietti says. "I enjoy those shows. I really like to watch them."
One very successful showgirl is Mara Carfagna, who left an uncertain singing career for politics.
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Berlusconi chose her for the slot of minister of equal opportunity — and both denied media reports that they were having an affair.
Satirist Sabina Guzzanti has publicly scorned the former topless calendar girl.
"I took strong position because it is absolutely a scandal," Guzzanti says. "Here we have more a pinup exactly than a showgirl, someone showing her body, and she became minister of equal opportunities."
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Sexism In Italy
Today, Italy has the lowest percentage of working women in Europe. Only 2 percent of top management positions are held by women — that's even behind Kuwait — and only 17 percent of the members of parliament are women — less than in Rwanda and Burundi.
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"To sell your body for a calendar, for a career, is not considered now so bad for many young women," says social scientist Elisa Manna, who has studied this issue's impact on Italian society. "This kind of attitude is connected to television, because they have this kind of model in every hour of the day."
With remote in hand, a viewer can zap from game shows with giggling girls in bikinis to prime-time anchorwomen with plunging necklines.
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The 72-year-old prime minister speaks openly about sex. He recently bragged, "I sleep for three hours, and still have enough energy to make love for another three.''
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journalist Lilli Gruber says feminism and solidarity among women are out of fashion.
A former TV anchorwoman who resigned from public television in protest over Berlusconi's control of the media, Gruber says most women appear unwilling or unable to assert themselves and too weak to fight.
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"To fight back against growing sexism, growing violence against women and domestic violence especially, fight back all these politicians who don't move an inch in order to allow women to be in charge and take on responsibilities," Gruber says.
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And why is this relevant?
When a society conditions the minds of its population, it affects the justice system just as much. In America black people have had a major disadvantage over whites because of this very reason and when OJ ended up with an almost all black jury, they acquitted him.
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The superheated publicity surrounding the case helped make Knox a household name in Italy. She is usually portrayed as a femme fatale. Consider these headlines:
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Italian journalists also have plastered their newspapers with photos they found of Knox on the Internet, especially images that showed her as a "wild girl." They pounced on the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname they found on her MySpace page, even though her parents later explained the high school moniker came from the way Knox played soccer, quick like a fox.
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Although Italian law limits the publication of court and police records, the media ban is less strict than in many European countries. While it is not exactly legal to publish police investigative reports, no journalist has gone to jail in Italy for doing it.
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Knox can do no right in the Italian media. If she appears reserved and timid in court, she is portrayed as someone with plenty to hide. If she smiles or laughs in court, she's called disrespectful. As far as the Italian media is concerned, Knox is the mastermind who manipulated those around her and seduced her Italian boyfriend and led him astray.
Another fact ignored by the Ms with plenty of attorneys in her family and total lack of "critical thinking" is that prosecutors do not convict, jurors do!
Knox was found guilty by a JURY, what motives would the jurors have to convict her if she were innocent?
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Jury's ONLY convict based on the material presented and under strict guidance of a judge........They do not have free range, they have to adhere to the guidelines presented to them.....
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Calm down. Start arguing with reason. You loose credibility. It appears you spend an aweful lot of time on this subject and I looked into your Micheli report. Fair enough it is very extensive.
Nevertheless when a Dershowitz has come to some of the same conclusions as I have on my own,
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You're attitude towards and lack of respect towards people that do not agree with you is proof of your psychological evaluation of the material presented to you. There is no way you could be objective and know what you are talking about.If you would, you would have asked questions instead and than one by one gone over them WITHOUT resorting to ad hominum attacks.
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An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person") is an argument which links the validity of a premise to an irrelevant characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise
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You continuing adhoms do have a psychological explanation. That of a person who harbors deep seeded anger. Your reactions to my posts are done out of emotions. Why not approach people who have doubt with reason instead? You will win more arguments with reason than with adhoms and censorship....
Knox has such a cold and evil look on her face but I don't know enough details about the case to judge her.
izasaros 4 months ago
FREE AMANDA KNOX
Tumadre520 11 months ago
they rare guilty as hell and they think its funny laughing all the time i hope they rot in jail
8757kathy 1 year ago
Judge Massei's 427- page report will be published in English on Monday 9 August. It will be available for download from PMF and TJMK.
mrharryrag 1 year ago
Micheli report gives 106 pages of evidence; for why Judge Micheli indicted them and made them stand trial.
Massei report (out March) will be the reasoning for their conviction.
These are available to the public from the government website. So the Italian system is incredibly open and just!
The media is not a source of reliable information; this case is an example of pure media spin. If you are interested in the truth primary sources are the best place to look to find the facts, not spin.
Giselle1403 1 year ago 4
I read a Dutch article which had a list of why this case needs to be questioned. Its long, very a long and crucial list...
I'll compare it to Truejustice..
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Take as long as you need Mrs Dutchy.......
niallio77 2 years ago 3
Maybe you can answer key questions....Nara (Capazari?) a so called key witness who heard the scream and saw people running away was never interviewed by police itself. The police saw her statement on tv ( see 48 hours investigation on my channel's fav) Also no phone records between Amanda,Sollecito and Guede exist whatsoever....How does that make for the theory of the prosecution?
Do you know?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
MrsDutchFox
-witness or no witness somebody was murdered
- cleaning up a crime scene? work your way backwards to the exit
-Guede's DNA SHOULD be all over the room - he was on a date.
- touching an object doesn't leave DNA; needs to be HELD, GRIPPED, RUBBED on. Perpetrators were probably holding knives remember? They probably changed victims clothes too- body/room WAS manipulated - washing machine on with M's clothes.
- knife had EXACT match of Meredith's DNA. That's all that counts
niallio77 2 years ago 6
@MsDutchfox
Nara Capezzali is a key witness in this case: of course she was interviewed by police and prosecution.
48 hours is an one-sided video made by CBS, a media outlet with close connections with the PR company working for the Knoxes.
The absence of phone records was explained by Paolo Micheli in his report (if you would have read it you would know): the police had confiscated Guede cell phone on Oct 28. Guede had no phone but he was a small time drug dealer living nearby...
crispiva1 2 years ago 7
Question following. Is there proof that Guede had any connection to Rs and AK? other than cellphone records and other than hanging out with the guys downstairs?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
I've never been to Perugia, but people who live there and judge Michele said it is a very small town and in the center everybody "know" and "meet" each other...
Guede lived very close to Sollecito and Knox. He was a small time drug dealer and the other 2 were drug users.
He played basket in a court close to the pub where Knox worked and used to go there...
In his report, judge Micheli analyses this issue very well too! He also gave an interview to an Umbrian newspaper about it.
crispiva1 2 years ago 7
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As for Nara Capezzali, she was interviewed in the documentary and you can hear her speak for her self.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Nara Capezzali was gaged by the police at the time of the documentary because she was a witness. She refused to talk to the interpreter she spoke to her through a window and didn't say much.
This documentary you refer to is very bad!
crispiva1 2 years ago 7
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says..?
Not according to Fransesca Bene a local reporter and Paul Ciolino , top Italian criminal defense investigator
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
i don't know what documentary you're refering to then...
Nara Capezzali refused to appear on 48 hours...
crispiva1 2 years ago 6
Besides, we just have to use logic: she was a witness of the prosecution!
Of course the prosecution/police interviewed her before!
crispiva1 2 years ago 5
@crispiva1
48 hours showed part of an interview Nara gave to the Italian TV and all she said in the interview was that she heard a loud and disturbing scream and people running in different directions.
48 hours tried to interview her but she DID NOT talk to them. Ciolino said she was behind a window talking to a translator HAHAHA
Nobody "saw" or "heard" the invisible Nara's answer in Italian. The "interpreter"'s translation is totally IRRELIABLE since it was not backed up!
arianariadne 2 years ago 10
MsDutchFox
Ciolino talks a LOT. He's enjoyed his 15 minutes.
Don't recall Capezzali having any bearing on outcome of trial
Here's a better witness - Guede claims he saw Rafaele with a knife, and Amanda was with him in apartment
niallio77 2 years ago 4
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Also, when you go clean up a crimescene, unless you are in total isolated gear you inevitably will bring in more DNA into the crime scene through hairs, fingerprints etc. Did they ever find anything else but a mob and bucket ?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
-Washing machine on with Meredith's clothes inside
-No track between the bloody footprint on the bath mat and Meredith's room: evidence of a clean up
-Meredith's body had been covered after blood dried up - very unlikely Guede would have stayed at the crime scene waiting for the blood to dry up- he was seen dancing on discos and then left for Germany...
-The corpse had been manipulated - Meredith's bra was removed later to point at the sexual nature of the crime.
crispiva1 2 years ago 7
continuing
-the break in had been staged and there was no sign of Guede in the room with the broken window but there was a bloody footprint of Knox in the room revealed by luminol and -again- without no trail leading to it.
-the window was broken from the inside: the shutters made impossible to break the window from outside and pieces of glass were on top (not underneath) the clothes spread on the floor to simulate a break-in. No valuables were taken.
crispiva1 2 years ago 9
cont...
-knox has no alibi whatsoever and all her statements have been disproved by phone + internet + computer records, witnesses and her own contradictory statements
-she was taken by surprise by police
-she clearly knew how Meredith had died even before the police (several witnesses): sexual assault - not even the pathologist knew it for sure), that she died a slow and painful death (before the autopsy results were given to police) and so on.
-Her statements contradict even her own mother's.
crispiva1 2 years ago 6
@crispiva1 Meredith's cell phones were taken and then thrown in the bushes. Rudy stole cell phones and a laptop from a law firm in Perugia.
Why didn't the rock dent the shutters if it bounced off them?
Amanda's luminol footprints were not tested for blood. If you look it up, luminol reacts to bleach. Amanda took a shower and people clean their showers with bleach.
A cleanup of the crime scene would be exposed by huge sweeping swathes of luminol all over the floor.
knals16 11 months ago
Not sure what planet some of you are living on. The break-in was not staged and the bloody footprint belong to Rudy...he admitted it was his. Yes valuables were taken - they found two of Meridith's cell phones in a park about 10 minutes walk from where Rudy Guede lived. And for those who say they "cleaned up"...yup they cleaned up their own DNA and left only the DNA belonging to Rudy...you know, because that's really possible. But by all means, don't let the facts get in the way.
Roseywellian 3 months ago
@crispiva1 If Amanda and Raffaele removed Meredith's bra at a later time, why is Guede's DNA all over the cut and bloody bra strap? (Massei Report p. 43) And I love how you almost excuse Guede's actions that night. Don't you find it rather callous that he went dancing immediately after he found Meredith dying?
knals16 11 months ago 2
It's almost like you're saying, "he didn't stage this alleged staged break-in, so he's not as despicable as the other two. He must have a conscience." He went freaking disco hopping.
knals16 11 months ago
And how is it that IF four people had an extensive fight with Meredith, not one shred of evidence of DNA was found of AK and RS in that particular room? Nevertheless Guedes DNA was all over the room. Its one thing to 'clean up the crime scene but it has to be done in gear in order to not leave NEW DNA.
The police said that AK was a
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
It is very easy to clean everything and leave only bloody prints which are visible, especially if taking the necessary precautions.
Knox also happened to forget her black lamp inside Meredith's room - the only lamp available in her own bedroom. She needed to see extra well while cleaning up.
It was probaly the reason why she and Sollecito were trying to break down the door when the police arrived: to retrieve the lamp they had forgotten inside after locking the door and getting rid of the key!
crispiva1 2 years ago 6
@crispiva1 That's bull. Amanda was able to sort out which blood was Rudy's and know for certain her dna was in no way mixed in with Rudy's during this attack, she was able to wipe up every trace of herself from the room and then she's stupid enough to leave her freaking lamp there?
Meredith probably borrowed it from her for something. Halloween was only a couple of days prior.
knals16 11 months ago
@knals16
That's bull - Knox cleaned the visible blood belonging to herself and Sollecito - easy!!!
Left only Guede's bloody hand and footprints.
But she forgot some spots hehehe -
And a lamp too! Sloppy girl :-D
crispiva1 11 months ago
@crispiva1 Okay. How did she clean up the INVISIBLE DNA belonging to herself and Sollecito? With an electron microscope? How did she know her and Raffaele's dna wasn't mixed with Rudy's? There was not a trace of her in Meredith's room.
knals16 11 months ago
@knals16
How silly you are!
They cleaned everything but the bloody shoeprints and handprints belonging to Guede - easy to identify!
But luminol revealed their own bloody footprints they had cleaned up! Hehehe...
crispiva1 11 months ago
@crispiva1 Luminol revealed footprints in the hallway that were tested for DNA and not for blood. The only prints they were able to identify in the room belonged to Rudy Guede.
knals16 11 months ago
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Also, bleach is used to kill salmonella on knifes. The indication that the knife was cleaned with bleach does not indicate anything, especially since the police admitted that the knife does not fit the wounds.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
MsDutchFox
when i said "take as long as you need" i was being SARCASTIC, meaning it will keep you off youtube because you post WAY too much!!
niallio77 2 years ago 7
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says who? you?
I know you were being facetious or sarcastic.
Thats why I posted some legit questions for you to answer ;)
Take it easy...
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
MsDutchFox
I'm all easy.
You have very good english. Facetious is a big word that i never even incorporated into my dialogue before.
niallio77 2 years ago 7
Thank you. Dutch is my native tongue but I married an American and my husband has always enjoyed teaching me words I and most other people had never heard of. Just for fun...But thanks for the great compliment. I love this language.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
@MsDutchfox
The maid working at Sollecito's flat said in her testimony that she had received specific instructions not to use bleach - it is very dangerous for the environment.
The knife was not only bleached but also very well scrubbed... was as shiny as newly polished silver!
crispiva1 2 years ago 6
Be back later
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Sorry I just realized that one of my replies was missing...
I read through the page you sent me, about Knox's conflicting alibis - I think in itself this is proof of KNox's involvement in the murder.... She may have thought it was funny when she was high...
Would you agree at this stage that the evidence is substantial and that the media have seriously withheld significant facts - especially the AMerican media - hoping to raise questions on her conviction..
Giselle1403 2 years ago
First, I am very distrustful of the media all together and the mainstream American media is aweful. So there is no disagreement there.
However I think that also counts for the Italian media as well and I find it highly object able that the jury is not sequestered in Italy.
The fact that media runs away with a case, in either direction is a reason to have a jury sequestered.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
It is not reasonable to have the jury sequestered for 10 months and I do not believe that any jury is ever fully sequestered.
In any case in the Italian system the Jury (2 judges and 4 lay men) have to provide a report with their reasoning. This means that they can only refer to the facts presented in court as to why AK and RS were found guilty. This report much like the Micheli Report is then made public.
I believe the system is a lot more transparent and cannot be influenced like the OJ trial
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I thought the jury had two judges and 6 ordinary members?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
I'm nit following your line of reasoning. I'll have to go back and check the times.
It seems however that there is so much evidence that it can no longer be explained away with such hypothetical reasoning etc the analysis seems to be derida style lol so that we cannot accept even what the CCTV shows. Of this were the only true link I would agree that it causes doubt but there is an iverwhelming amount if links that it would be fantasy to dismiss them as coincidence etc
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I went back and found the page for you to read yourself on the Truejustice website.
This is the article posted and the comment was posted by Commisario Montalbano.
Our Take On The Case For The Prosecution: #4 Amanda Knoxs Multiple Conflicting Alibis
Posted by The Machine
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
another question...
from True justice
It couldnt have been Laura, she was in Rome. It couldnt have been Filomena, she was staying with her boyfriend. It was very unlikely that it was Rudy Guede, all proofs of his presence were left untouched."
Why is Filomena's alibi that she was with her boyfriend satisfying to the police but Knox's wasn?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
All the house mates were under suspicion. But I am guessing that the conflicting stories about their affairs the night MK was murdered is what raised alarm bells on RS and AK.
Filomena and her bf had solid evidence of what they had done that night.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
that makes sense. Thanks.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
One more question
From Truejustce
Knoxs DNA (from epithelial cells) was found on the knife sheath, and close to the blade junction. It was not possible to ascertain both the haematic and epithelial source of Merediths DNA on the knife blade, due to the scarcity of the sample. But Judge Micheli noted that reasonable doubt persist that blood could have been present also."
This was the knife found at RS's house right?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Yes the knife in question was found at RS house.
It was consistent with the deep and fatal wound on MK's neck.
But there was apparently another smaller knife that was used. This appears consistent with the fact that RG was known to carry a small knife on his person at all times.
The facts all add up... reading the facts leaves me with no doubt, although I cannot assemble the details of the case and I dont believe that there was a sex game as such. I think it was just an attack...
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I have a hard time believing the sex game. Maybe thats why I am so suspicious of all together. I do believe Knox saw something or was part of this but I haven't made up my mind as of yet because I don't want others to tell me how it is. I want to review all of what you reviewed myself. And what I pity is the sensationalism surrounding this case which makes it harder to to allow for people to make up their own mind. Does that make sense?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Also when I read on Knoxs various statements , first thing came to mind is the Trauma induced amnesia. My first impression of this case: she witnessed Meredith getting killed. Someone else brings it up on Truejustice.Its not that uncommon for people who witness traumatic events to not remember what happened or to give conflicting statements.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
She may have been forced to participate in a killing after she walked into the scene and because of that tried to reajust the crimescene afterwards.
I need to read more and find out more in order to make up my mind. I prefer people would not stalk those who haven't yet and instead of attacking people would help them answer the questions that still remain for those that haven'r reviewed the case.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
I think that assuming that she was forced to participate in the killing is really stretching into fantasy land. She did not seem distressed the next day for someone that had been forced to kill her flat mate and their were no bruises etc on her body. I think her angelic face is really giving you trouble.
Have you seen a picture of Lizzie Borden? She was acquitted because the jury could not believe a white pretty girl would kill. ANd she looks like Amanda (on a side note)
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I don't know Lizzie Borden , but I will google her name to find out.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Thanks for clarifying things for me though..
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
That was my mistake - there are 2 judges and 6 lay men.
AK and RS both claim that they were high on Cannabis. AK states this in her testimony which you can listen to on youtube... but I am not aware if they were tested ...
Giselle1403 2 years ago
The more I read the more I think she is guilty nevertheless I am still wondering ...why? and how is it people who have no former records turn into muderers?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
I think that drugs remove all logic MsDutchFox. I was really alarmed when I heard about this case. But when I was doing my law degree I came across some pretty bizarre cases even without drugs. I honestly think she has a psychological problem... I mean alarm bells should have started when her friends read her blogs on rape stories and sexual assaults.
It has been very nice discussing this case with you. I hope the judge and jury's reasoning clarifies for both of us any points that are vague.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
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You´re a law student ? So is my brother , he´s about to enter his second semester.What a coincidence lol
I suppose you admire prosecutor Mignini.
ambera15 1 year ago
Im also sorry to hear, thank God that there was someone there to help, still its something that no one can ever forget... The shock is what really stops a person from feeling the actual pain.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
Yes but the problem is that she withdrew this statement and has resorted to lies and fabrications. The evidence points beyond doubt to her involvement so the jury convict. Now if she speaks up and tells the truth she may get a lesser sentence. But she wants to get away Scott Free! Also with all the media attention and FOA I think she will never tell us the truth about what happened to MK.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I have personally suffered from trauma induced amnesia, where I was the victim of the case and all I remembered were things in sections very much like AK's original confession. The UK police went on the make the same mistake and charged me. Probably because my story was not coherent... or maybe because the guy that assaulted me was from an influential family.
Regardless at this point I got a lawyer and the prosecution told the judge that the defendant 'me' was the victim.
What I am saying is ...
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I am so sorry to hear.....
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
What I am saying is the lawyers spoke to me and to the doctors about my injuries and then to psychologists and presented this to the prosecution and the judge. In a coherent manner that I could not have because I was in shock and frankly could not remember much at all.
AK's lawyers would have done the same with the facts - but the story her facts tell are that she participated in this murder. I am sure she does not remember the whole night, but the evidence tells the story itself.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I was assaulted when I was 16 but all that ever happened was a fight because my assaulter was interrupted by people passing by. I do remember how shocked I was and that it took everything out of me...
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Its spreading the facts one person at a time, and if you still have your doubts then thats alright. But the jury convicted based on the facts. Its aggravating how the American media have been reporting this case. They want the PR machine to put pressure on the government to get her off this crime. I hope that this does not happen.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
I don't think thats it.
What I think is...the media wants to make a buck on a case that is a done deal! The more doubt the media can throw around,the more they can prolong the coverage and sell advertisement.
Trust me, i have lived long enough in this country to know.
Everything....everything is always about money.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Yes it is certainly all about money! But if the American public believe that she is innocent they will put pressure on the government - votes are politics and politics is money and power...
Giselle1403 2 years ago
None of it is going to happen. If the U.S wanted to interfere they would have interfered in Italian law with the CIA trials!!!
Neverhteless I am disgusted with the sensationalism and the propaganda surrounding this case, the online intellectual dishonesty and integrity coming from ALL sides,especially from those who somehow think they have a monopoly on the truth and are despereate to force their opinion onto others without letting the facts speak for itself.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
thank you for pointing me to the right resources. I will definitely read a lot more.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Let me take that back. The Kercher family has conducted itself with dignity!
MsDutchfox 2 years ago 4
but...don't forget to check out the vid I favored that talks about nine DNA experts that examined the DNA report.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Horrible ! But it does happen even in the plain light of day and most passerby don´t even notice. How did you shake him off ? Did he cover your mouth with his hand?
ambera15 1 year ago
I think we need to put aside the prosecution's theories and scenarios and let the facts do the talking. There is no need for us to know what the details were and why they argued or why they stabbed her. The human mind is so complex that there are reasons beyond the scope of imagination and especially when there are drugs involved which remove all logic.
In any case if AK saw something she should really just come out and say it. If the story fits the evidence Im sure she will get more sympathy
Giselle1403 2 years ago
Did the police test on drug use with AK and RS?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Another question
From Truejustice
Early on the morning of November 2nd, Signora Lana Biscarini received a bomb threat call made to her home at 5A Via Sperandio. (This later transpired to be a hoax.)'
Who made this call?
did someone wanted for Lana Biscarini to find that phone? I mean, when you get a scare....what was said on the phone to this lady?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
This bomb scare thing was actually interesting for me also! No doubt it has been investigated by the defense but I have not come across any information... Id be happy if you let me know if you come across anything.
Giselle1403 2 years ago
My very first problem with this case is that AK and her family and her legal team and the PR company they have hired have not yet after two years given a plausible story of where AK was the night of the murder.
All their stories have been disproved by the prosecution with evidence that does not lie. For instance phone records, internet logs and CCTV.
RS in his last statement claimed that AK left his house at 9pm and came back at 1am (murder time frame) leaving AK with no alibi.
Giselle1403 2 years ago 3
MsDutch fox's hobby is not to expose decoy, as she claims on her profile but to MISLEAD people!
All the statements she claims to be part of the Micheli's report are FALSE.
Paolo Micheli never wrote any of those words! Those quotes by Peter Quennel were extracted from his blog True Justice for Meredith Kercher.
MsDutchfox is a a DECEIVER, a SLIMY LIAR of the worst kind.
An IMMORAL, EVIL TROLL with no soul!
crispiva1 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Lets get real here. I am in no way advocating for guilty people to walk around free.
You have a choice!
That of using your knowledge to explain why Knox and Sollecito are guilty in a civil manner. I can pick apart the Micheli report ,nevertheless all that is relevant are the facts and not the speculations.
What is it going to be?
Behaving like a kindergardener or behaving like an adult who is going to prove WITH REASON that his side is most likeley the right side?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Secpndly, fair enough
! Peter Quennel who made it his hobby to go over the Micheli report must have some established weaknesses. Lets take a look at your source the Micheli report. To ensure accuracy please make sure I am reading the right report by sending the link. That would be greatly appreciated and it will eliminate confusion and assure we are looking at the exact same material. What do you say? Fair enough?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
From Peter Quennel, who without a doubt has the most elaborate channel on this topic internet wide
Link to report is dropped for now as Italian speakers tell us its really very disturbing.
Many have told us they cried on reading it. And many had to simply stop reading.
Well be putting it back up as soon as we have redacted the disturbing sections.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/27/09 at 07:10 PM | #'
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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After close examining the site, I found his page on Amanda's father quite disturbing and totally irrelevant.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Judge Micheli was also the pre-trial judge who in October said there was enough evidence against Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito for them to be sent for trial. The prosecution alleges that Guede tried to sexually assault Ms Kercher while Mr Sollecito held her down and Ms Knox toyed with a knife against her throat, which she then used to stab her. Judge Micheli said he accepted that there was complicity between the assailants, but said some aspects of the prosecution reconstruction were fantasy.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
From the Micheli report
Yes, it does seem that the investigative methods were sloppy and not all samples may be reliable (I acknowledge that there are some problems with the prosecutions case)."
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
I am a big believer in DNA evidence! I believe DNA can slam the the case for good.
Thats why when there is ANY doubt about the DNA, I have a problem with it! And the problems do exist and they are downplayed.
I think this is where the focus needs to be.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
she could have had her period for crying out loud.
You know how many times I tell my husband he is going to be accused for killing me in the bathroom?
Gross analysis is it? But one that needs to be taken in consideration
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
If Amanda were innocent and truthful, wouldnt her hair three hours later look like it had been washed and blow dried that day? Look again at the photo posted above. It was taken about three hours after the alleged washing and blow drying. Is that the hair of a woman who washed and blow dried her hair three hours earlier?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Again from the Micheli report...
Yep. My hair doesn't always look great after I wash and dry it. It ususally looks better the day after I have washed it!
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
om the Micheli report
If Amanda were innocent, wouldnt she have just flushed the exposed feces down the toilet?"
this is the bathroom where she got the hairdryer...I would grab the hairdryer and get out, being grossed out by a BM in the toilet
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Ok bbl
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
this is from the Micheli report and THIS I find highly troublesome with regards its analysis.
Since the murder, Amandas behavior could certainly be questioned. Who does cartwheels at a police station during an investigation of their murdered roommate? What defendant wears a shirt to their murder trial that says All you need is love when the prosecution is trying to portray them as someone with out-of-control sexual behavior?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Who doesn't have a Tshirt with 'all you need is love' text and how often do you don a Tshirt without examining the text on it before you put it on from your closet.
Doing cartwheels might have been a great distraction under the circumstances. My gally, I used to be a gymnast myself and can totally relate to doing a cartwheel!
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
@MsDutchfox
I don't know what kind of a disgusting household you run that there is so much blood around the bathroom that one may assume a murder! But most girls don't have such habbits
Giselle1403 2 years ago 2
Accidents happen Ms Giselle. No need to become personal and again resort to adhom attacks.
If a minor razor cut can cause DNA blood evidence, so can any speck of blood coming from a womans period, especially when women suffer irregular periods.
So no Ms Giselle, your analysis I run a disgusting household does not hold up ( by the way that was another one of your adhom atacks.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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There are many medical conditions that can cause for unexpected heavy bleeding.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
OK Msfox
You said that you regularly tell your husband that people will think he murdered you because of the state of your bathroom when you have your period!
This was to explain that Knox's bathroom may have had this situation - or at least Knox may have though so
Im trying to demonstrate that your arguments are fanciful
I dont know anyone that bleeds all over their bathroom and leaves it there - or anyone that would walk into a bloody bathroom and think "oh yeah she must be on her period"
Giselle1403 2 years ago 2
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Actually, ...my point is...that after you clean up your bathroom, there still might be traces of the blood that can be detected.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Luminol is a chemical that glows with a bluish light when it comes in contact with blood. It even reacts with years old traces of blood. An ultra-sensitive chemical, it can detect blood at one part per million. In simple language, this means that if there is even one drop of blood in 999,999 drops of water, luminol will glow. Hence, extensively used for criminal investigations, luminol has helped crack some pretty tricky cases of detection.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Yes your technical explanation of luminol is correct however the forensic scientists can infer from the glow of luminol when it comes in contact with blood whether or not the amount was efficacious.
The defense tried to argue that it may have been orange juice that Knox had stepped in. But this was rejected by scientists because the trained eye can infer from the colour of the glow that it was in fact blood.
Giselle1403 2 years ago 3
Neverhtless this indicates that the amount of blood detected was insufficient ?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Also the foot prints from the bedroom to the toilet are missing. Therefore the hall way must have been cleaned as it is difficult to imagine someone hovering over the hallway to the bathroom.
RS and AK were not finished cleaning when the police arrived. They were sitting outside with a mop and bucket. Therefore they may have cleaned the rest up if they were not stopped.
Giselle1403 2 years ago 3
Did they actually find a mop and bucket? And also what I find so peculiar is where they left on their own outside when the police arrived? Since it is appearant that Sollecito only then called police?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
When the police arrived they told them that the house appeared as though it had been broken into and that they had already called police. It appears that they called the police 20 min after this - so I imagine that they walked around with police
At this point AK told the police that MK always has her door room locked - this was a lie according to the two other flat mates.
Then at some point they went into Knox's room where they made phone calls to create alibis - but the CCTV camera gaveit away
Giselle1403 2 years ago 2
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( I just want you to take this in consideration)
Victims of bloody, violent crimes cannot disappear without a trace that is the basic assumption on which crime scene investigators function. No matter how hard the murderer tries to clean up the blood and dispose of the body, some tell-tale traces of blood will remain. Tiny blood particles can cling to most surfaces for years on end, without ever being seen.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
I understand that you enjoy forensics, but I am also open to all the rest of the evidence.
When you eliminate the impossible what you are left with, no matter how unlikely, is the answer.
Also the RS family are under investigation for trying to have police eliminate evidence etc I cannot help but wonder if this is why the DNA for this crime scene is missing.
There was no DNA from anyone else there and Rudy Guede could not have moved the body based on the timing
Giselle1403 2 years ago 3
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See here is one of my problems....knowing Italy from the inside. And Crispi brought this up as well, the point of bribing police.
If theRS family think they can bribe the police, it kind of confirms my knowledge and understanding through my family on how police works in Italy. They are to be bribed and therefor not to be trusted. I mean this is one of my observations...
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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he tricky thing about luminol is that substances (such as household bleach) other than blood may also cause luminol to glow. Hence, a glow merely reveals to investigators the possibility of blood in the area. An experienced investigator, by observing the speed of the chemical reaction can judge whether the substance was blood or something else. But in order to be absolutely sure that it was blood, other tests need to be run.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Once again "accidents can happen" you make it sound as if when you are on your period there is a tap of blood!
Or do you inadvertently wipe the floor with your pads? Or walk around dripping and just leave it till the next time the cleaner comes?
I just want to demonstrate how ridiculous your comments and arguments are! All fantasy arguments put forward by the defence, of course any woman on the jury would know this is not possible unless you live in a pig sty
Giselle1403 2 years ago 5
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They are not ridiculous because of the very fact that it does happen in reality. Now I can go over my own experience but it is kind of gross and it will ( considering this crowd) be used in more adhom attacks. All I am saying is, any left over residue can be found at anybody's house even if there was a thorough cleanup especially when detected with luminol. I am trying to put this fact into perspective. I have noticed too many speculations that hve colored this case and made it into a circus.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
MsDutchFox
All that I am stating is that when you walk into your house and the door is open and there is blood all over the bathroom - you dont think period blood...
At least Amanda did not because she called her other flat mates and she called RS and expressed her concern - she also was worried enough to call her mother (it was past midnight in the USA) and wake her to tell her that her house was broken into but she was alright.
Then she took a shower in that bathroom! Is this normal?
Giselle1403 2 years ago 2
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Ok, good luck with voting and all. I won't be back . I though I leave y'all a surprise since everybody here is fond of silencing any dissenting view.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
MsDutchfox
You never addressed any of the facts instead you resorted to all the things FOA and Knox PR keep going on about
1) Italy is corrupt and their legal system is a mess (Italy is in the EU and controlled by EU courts - no one else has a problem with their legal system)
2)The DNA was contaminated (this is a fantasy that the defence could not prove)
3) Anti Americanism! The classic point which is completely irrelevant and farcical
What about CCTV, Phone records, witnesses, blood, lies!?
Giselle1403 2 years ago 5
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Dershowitz: ''I have some doubts on the verdict on Amanda''
The giurist from Havard explains why there are some clouds on the decision taken by the jury in Perugia
(La Stampa, December 11, 2009)
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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hat do you think of the trial against Amanda Knox that finished with a verdict that gave her 26 years of jail? Its a very questionable verdict based on circumstantial inferences from weak evidence. I dont believe it would have satisfied the United States requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt and of eliminating all reasonable inferences consistent with innocence.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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If the same trial for the same delict would have been done in a Us Court the verdict would have been different? It might have been different. American juries are also influenced by media coverage in high profile cases. One big difference is that the jurors would have been sequestered—that is kept isolated—during the case or at least during the deliberations. The trial would have also been far shorter in duration.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Biggie....jurors in Italy are not sequestered and are prone to media infuence.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Amanda Knox was declared guilty for the killing of her roommate Meredith in good part because of the fact that her dna was found on the knife but many observers in America object that the quantity of the dna wasn't enough for such a verdict. Can you please explain to the Italian public the issue of the quantity of the dna for the American law?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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There are several issues relating to the DNA. There is the quantity—that is, is there sufficient DNA on which to make a certain judgment of identification? Second, there is the quality of the DNA, which relates to the manner of collection, preservation and testing. And third, there is the issue of whether DNA could have gotten on the handle in an innocent fashion. Most recently, there have also been questions about the planting of DNA and even the fabrication of DNA.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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After the verdict one senator for the State of Washington accused the Italian judge and jury to be anti-American. Why some in the US had this impression? It does not sound like it reflects anti-Americanism to me. In my experience, most Italians seem to like Americans, especially Americans who come to Italy to study.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Hillary Clinton said that she "will listen" any claim on the case. What can she do? Which kind of step can she make with Italy?
The Secretary of State, by expressing interest in the case, can increase the possibility that the appellate court will scrutinize this verdict with great care, because it realizes that the eyes of the world are on the Italian justice system.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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But Americans should not get a higher standard of justice than defendants from any other country, just because we are a powerful nation. To be fair, justice must be equal for all.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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In the US media the Amanda case was the story of an American girl wrongly punished by a corrupt system while for the Italian media she was a kind of Devil landed in Perugia that before killed and then wanted to escape justice. Why this case is making the emotions running so high between two countries that are so close?
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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The emotions are high in this case because what happened to Amanda Knox is every American parents nightmare. Americans, particularly those with college aged children, identify with Amanda. And because the Italian system of justice is somewhat different from our own, many Americans have less confidence in its outcomes. B
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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But all Americans and Italians have one hope in common: that when the case is decided by the higher courts, not only will justice actually be done but justice will also be seen by everyone to be done. Thats all that one can expect from any imperfect system of human justice.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Professor Alan M. Dershowitz is Brooklyn native who has been called the nations most peripatetic civil liberties lawyer and one of its most distinguished defenders of individual rights, the best-known criminal lawyer in the world, the top lawyer of last resort,
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Because the Senator you speak of is connected to FOA!
She tried to take the case to Senator Clinton who refused to get involved
BOTH ladies stated that the trial was FAIR !
A representative from the US consulate was present at all times and there was no cause for complaint
Only FOA and Knox PR are spinning lies
Also using anti Americanism as a point of argument! There was an Italian guy from a well connected family who is also convicted and in jail! NO there was not anti Americanism
Giselle1403 2 years ago 4
1) DNA contamination around the world is a matter for the defence to prove. In this case there was NO evidence of contamination.
2)The reason the DNA on the knife is disputed is the defence in a tactical manoeuvre did not show up for the testing.
3) It is lucky that any DNA was found on the knife as it had been scrubbed (physical evidence of scratches) and bleached (also proven) shortly before police collected the item.
4) Raffaele confirmed that MK blood was on the knife using a lie to explan
Giselle1403 2 years ago 4
These jurors also heard about the prosecutor being under investigation!!
So if they found her not guilty people should come complaining that it was because the prosecutor was painted in a bad light!?!??!
NO!
The jury listened to ALL the evidence! If you care to find out more read the micheli report OR wait for the judgment on this one
BUT as a qualified lawyer! My personal view is that she would have been convicted in the UK also! The evidence is substantial!
Giselle1403 2 years ago 4
In Italy, Feminism Out, Women As Sex Symbols In
by SYLVIA POGGIOLI
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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December 3, 2008
Americans and northern Europeans visiting Italy often comment on the sheer quantity of exposed female flesh in advertising and on TV shows.
That exposure is inversely proportional to the presence of women in the labor force, in management and in politics.
Feminists place a lot of the blame for the commercial use of the female body at the door of Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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A recent popular TV show was a contest for two showgirl slots on a top satirical program. More than 5,000 women applied, and the prime requisites were perfect bodies and the ability to dance on tabletops.
Both on public television and on networks owned by Berlusconi, who also is a media tycoon, scantily dressed women can been seen — but rarely heard — on all types of programs, from quizzes to political talk shows.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Showgirl As Role Model
Opinion polls indicate that the showgirl is the No. 1 role model for young Italian women, including 21-year-old student Livia Colarietti.
"If I were a little thinner, I would have joined the contest to become a showgirl," Colarietti says. "I enjoy those shows. I really like to watch them."
One very successful showgirl is Mara Carfagna, who left an uncertain singing career for politics.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Berlusconi chose her for the slot of minister of equal opportunity — and both denied media reports that they were having an affair.
Satirist Sabina Guzzanti has publicly scorned the former topless calendar girl.
"I took strong position because it is absolutely a scandal," Guzzanti says. "Here we have more a pinup exactly than a showgirl, someone showing her body, and she became minister of equal opportunities."
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Sexism In Italy
Today, Italy has the lowest percentage of working women in Europe. Only 2 percent of top management positions are held by women — that's even behind Kuwait — and only 17 percent of the members of parliament are women — less than in Rwanda and Burundi.
Television has become women's prime showcase.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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"To sell your body for a calendar, for a career, is not considered now so bad for many young women," says social scientist Elisa Manna, who has studied this issue's impact on Italian society. "This kind of attitude is connected to television, because they have this kind of model in every hour of the day."
With remote in hand, a viewer can zap from game shows with giggling girls in bikinis to prime-time anchorwomen with plunging necklines.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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The 72-year-old prime minister speaks openly about sex. He recently bragged, "I sleep for three hours, and still have enough energy to make love for another three.''
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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journalist Lilli Gruber says feminism and solidarity among women are out of fashion.
A former TV anchorwoman who resigned from public television in protest over Berlusconi's control of the media, Gruber says most women appear unwilling or unable to assert themselves and too weak to fight.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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"To fight back against growing sexism, growing violence against women and domestic violence especially, fight back all these politicians who don't move an inch in order to allow women to be in charge and take on responsibilities," Gruber says.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Thats where the valuable jury pool comes in...
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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source NPR!
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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And why is this relevant?
When a society conditions the minds of its population, it affects the justice system just as much. In America black people have had a major disadvantage over whites because of this very reason and when OJ ended up with an almost all black jury, they acquitted him.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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The superheated publicity surrounding the case helped make Knox a household name in Italy. She is usually portrayed as a femme fatale. Consider these headlines:
• "Sex, lies and stabbings"
• "Lovers without any inhibitions"
• "And in prison, she even tries to sun tan"
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Italian journalists also have plastered their newspapers with photos they found of Knox on the Internet, especially images that showed her as a "wild girl." They pounced on the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname they found on her MySpace page, even though her parents later explained the high school moniker came from the way Knox played soccer, quick like a fox.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Although Italian law limits the publication of court and police records, the media ban is less strict than in many European countries. While it is not exactly legal to publish police investigative reports, no journalist has gone to jail in Italy for doing it.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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Knox can do no right in the Italian media. If she appears reserved and timid in court, she is portrayed as someone with plenty to hide. If she smiles or laughs in court, she's called disrespectful. As far as the Italian media is concerned, Knox is the mastermind who manipulated those around her and seduced her Italian boyfriend and led him astray.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
In Italy, Feminism Out, Women As Sex Symbols In
by SYLVIA POGGIOLI
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Another fact ignored by the Ms with plenty of attorneys in her family and total lack of "critical thinking" is that prosecutors do not convict, jurors do!
Knox was found guilty by a JURY, what motives would the jurors have to convict her if she were innocent?
What are their flaws?
crispiva1 2 years ago 3
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Jury's ONLY convict based on the material presented and under strict guidance of a judge........They do not have free range, they have to adhere to the guidelines presented to them.....
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Exactly, dear, BUT for some mysterious reason you're forgetting the role of your family members: the "defense attorneys"! ROFL
The defendants have attorneys to present material contesting the evidence presented by the prosecutors!
AND Sollecito and Knox have the best defense attorneys money can hire in Italy!
crispiva1 2 years ago
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You said it yourself...exactly....the best defense attorneys money can hire ...IN...Italy.....
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
And the trial is... in Italy!
The prosecutors and judges too!
Fair enough!
If Americans don't want to be tried in Italy, they should refrain from killing people or stay at home while doing so!
crispiva1 2 years ago 4
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Calm down. Start arguing with reason. You loose credibility. It appears you spend an aweful lot of time on this subject and I looked into your Micheli report. Fair enough it is very extensive.
Nevertheless when a Dershowitz has come to some of the same conclusions as I have on my own,
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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There is something about the psychological conclusions that do not add up.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Calm down, Fox dear, who is arguing here?
Not me! Your credibility was completely lost the minute you cited Anne Bremner and FOA as your source of information, honey! :D
crispiva1 2 years ago 2
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Anne Bremner has been a trial attorney for 26 years!
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
It's obvious that legal knowledge is not genetically transmitted! ROFL
For someone coming from a family of attorneys Ms Fox lacks basic knoledge of legal principles:
"Dura Lex Sed Lex" - the law is tough but it is the law.
Knox has been convicted on the evidence presented and will stay in jail no matter how much or for how long Friends of Amanda and Anne Bremner scream.
And she will remain in jail until the appeal is over (and very likely after that as well).
So, GET USED to it!
crispiva1 2 years ago 3
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You're attitude towards and lack of respect towards people that do not agree with you is proof of your psychological evaluation of the material presented to you. There is no way you could be objective and know what you are talking about.If you would, you would have asked questions instead and than one by one gone over them WITHOUT resorting to ad hominum attacks.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
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An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person") is an argument which links the validity of a premise to an irrelevant characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise
MsDutchfox 2 years ago
Accusations of personal attacks and disrespect coming from someone
-accusing others of corruption and of being members of the Mafia;
-claiming intelectual superiority,
-legal cultural inheritance, and
-multicultural background;
and patronizing opponents with endearments and calling them members of the ignorant "masses"
DO NOT AFFECT ME!
Sorry to say, my dear, gentle, adorable, well-mannered Ms Fox! :)
crispiva1 2 years ago 3
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You continuing adhoms do have a psychological explanation. That of a person who harbors deep seeded anger. Your reactions to my posts are done out of emotions. Why not approach people who have doubt with reason instead? You will win more arguments with reason than with adhoms and censorship....
give it a try, you'll be surprised.
MsDutchfox 2 years ago