majinish tells us, "In Romans 1:5 we learn from Paul that we're given grace for obedience to the faith". But the text actually says, "we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience OF FAITH" (the NASB is more accurate). But even if we accept the KJV rendering what faith is Paul talking about? The "laws and ordinances" of the Mormon gospel? No, Paul is talking about, "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Rom 3:22).
@Keruaran "the NASB is more accurate" lol No its not. Why do you claim it is, because the KJV proves you're wrong? The KJV is the most accurate. It was translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts, the same language of the Old Testament (Hebrew) and New Testament (Greek). Now I see why you don't know the Bible.
You still offer no scriptural refutation of what I've posted. And on the basis of your rejection of the NASB as an accurate and faithful translation of the scriptures with statements that are not only baseless, ignorant and plain idiotic, you claim I don't know the Bible? Your argumentation has now degenerated to the level of King James Onlyist nuts like Riplinger and Ruckman. Surprisingly bad majinish, even for you.
@Keruaran My rejection of the NASB is because the KJV was translated from texts similar to the original texts of the scriptures, the NASB was not. I don't just claim you don't know the Bible, you simply demonstrate it on here.
Really majinish, if you won't know what you're talking about its not advisable to keep blustering. I assure you, New Testament textual criticism is something well and truly out of your depth and unless you are determined to make a fool of yourself I don't recommend you continue.
@Keruaran Well its a good thing I'm not the one here making a fool out of themselves. Romans 3 in general speaks about grace and faith. Unfortunately for you it doesn't say anything about faith alone. I understand what the New Testament teaches. Its not faith alone and its not works alone, its both. If a person asks "is it by faith alone or works alone" either way the person answering is going to get the question wrong if they stick with just those 2 choices.
@Keruaran In other words because you disagree then its not good enough for you, not that its actually not good enough. I already gave the refutation by explaining the scripture you provided yourself. Its not by faith alone. Romans 3 doesn't teach anything about faith alone. That's just something you evangelicals add.
@Keruaran I repeated myself because you don't care to listen. The scriptures you gave do NOT say faith "alone". The refutation is in the very scripture, Romans 3:22, you gave. Where does it say faith "alone"? You can't find it because its not there.
"the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe"
There is nothing additional.
And if because of Joseph Smiths erroneous writings you believe this leaves the door open for, "by grace that we are saved, after all we can do", Ephesians 2:8-9 slams that door shut saying,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.".
@Keruaran No Keruaran, it doesn't. The phrase "after all we can do" doesn't teach that we're saved for our works. We're given the grace of God for obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5) which is the same thing as saying "by grace we are saved, after all we can do." The Bible & Book of Mormon don't counter each other, they support each other. That's not just my opinion, its simply true no matter who says what.
"The phrase "after all we can do" doesn't teach that we're saved for our works"
It does exactly that majinish. Why don't you tell us what's required for you to make it to the Celestial Kingdom to be with the Heavenly Father majinish? And are you doing all you can do so that you can obtain that "grace"?
Romans 1:5 certainly is not saying the same whing as "by grace we are saved, after all we can do", not by any reasonable exegesis. You are not allowing scripture to speak for itself and define what that faith is itself. You are imposing unscriptural definitions of "faith" and "grace". 2 Nephi 25:23 represents an outright rejection of the sovereign grace of God in Ephesians 2:8-9. Such teaching from the Mormon Church is in direct opposition to Holy Scripture.
You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23 without ripping Romans 1:5 out of the context it rests in: That is, the book of Romans where the gospel of grace (which 2 Nephi 25:23 rejects) is expounded in detail along with the rest of Paul's writings. If you're going to reinterperet Romans 1:5 with a total disregard for Paul's own definitions, then you're going to have to wrest scripture to the point of absurdity to reinterperet everything else Paul teaches.
You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23 without ripping Romans 1:5 out of the context it rests in: That is, the book of Romans where the gospel of grace (which 2 Nephi 25:23 rejects) is expounded in detail along with the rest of Paul's writings. If you're going to reinterperet Romans 1:5 with a total disregard for Paul's own definitions, then you're going to have to wrest scripture to the point of absurdity to reinterperet everything else Paul teaches.
@Keruaran "You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23" Why, because you don't like it? lol Yes, it does teach the same thing 2 Nephi 25:23 says.
"without ripping Romans 1:5 out of the context it rests in" That "argument" is what every anti-Mormon is required to use when we LDS, Biblical Christians, describe what the Bible teaches. You echo everything every other anti-Mormon says. I don't interpret them by what you say, I interpret them by what the scriptures say.
""You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23" Why, because you don't like it?"
No, becase no reasonable exegesis of the gospel as Paul expounds it in Romans nor any of his other Epistles would provide grounds for such a conclusion. You're not exegeting scripture, you're presupposing Mormon doctrine and eisegetically reading that into a text which doesn't support it. Once again, you wrest the scriptures and don't allow scripture to speak for itself.
Furthermore, if you're going to wrench Romans 1:5 out of its context and turn it into something that is out of step with everything else Paul teaches you reveal that you are not actually interested in understanding what the Apostle Paul has written, but rather that your agenda is to impose upon scripture your own presuppositions and doctrines with a willingness to distort and misrepresent the text to make it fit your doctrines.
Any works that preceeds grace nullifies that grace. It is by definition works based salvation since works are placed ahead of grace clearly as a prerequisite. Grace "after all we can do" is not grace at all. In stark contrast Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith". It is past tense and goes further saying of the faith of the believer is "not of yourselves". Salvation is unearned, it is a free gift of God "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast".
Again you demonstrate that you're not interested in understanding what Paul has written. I think it has been explained clearly enough already. But if you want to continue, the stark contrast between scripture and what the Mormon Church teaches will only become more obvious (as if it wasn't already).
Its amazing that you completely bypass the fact that I have already covered the KJV rendering of the text:
"But even if we accept the KJV rendering what faith is Paul talking about? The "laws and ordinances" of the Mormon gospel? No, Paul is talking about, "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Rom 3:22)."
You provide no scriptural refutation and want to argue about the NASB instead as if this is relevant. It's not.
Thank you for your concern. It honestly touched me that you care for my salvation. But, I believe that Jesus Christ, Born of the Virgin Mary and God our Heavenly Father, atoned for my/our sins in Gethsemane and bled on the cross for all mankind. I believe that over centuries the truth was corrupted by man, for whatever reasons, and has been restored in its fullness by prophets called of God. I believe that we are all sons and daughters of God, and through Him we can all be perfected.
Oh so if the baptists or methodists or catholics dont agree in every aspect of your denomination they arent christian either. You can say someone is not a baptist, but you cant say someone isnt a christian
This guy is an idiot. We're Christians. So are you going to have a sermon on calling baptists Catholics, or are you going to call Methodists Jehovah's Witnesses?
@Keruaran lol Even though your comment was rightfully removed I can still see it through the comment section of the notification. The problem with what you said is the fact that you claimed I lie when I'm nothing but honest. We're Christians whether you agree or not.
I removed it majinish, made minor changes an reposted it. You're really not too bright are you. And there is nothing honest about your conduct whatsoever.
@Keruaran Yea, I'm pretty bright. I said we Mormons are Christians because we are. Like I said, I'm an honest person and when I say we're Christians I'm being honest.
@Keruaran Sure do. Someone who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings. Are you an Evangelical? You act like it and that's not a compliment. Most Evangelicals are like Muslims, they're extremists.
Your definition is not inadequate, it's a deception. The Mormon Jesus is a spirit child of the Father (a created being) and the brother of Satan. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is not a created being but is God who created all things; God incarnate in the flesh. Also when Mormons speak of "his teachings" they are speaking within the context of the "laws and ordinances" of Joseph Smith's false works-based "gospel" which is no gospel at all.
@Keruaran We believe in the ONLY Jesus Christ there is. We follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible. When we say "his teachings" we're referring to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith also taught the teachings of Jesus Christ. We're not work based because the Bible isn't work-based. We're not faith-alones because the Bible doesn't teach faith alone. Faith alone is just as wrong as works alone. Its not either/or, its both. That's the Biblical teaching.
@Keruaran "That is a lie majinish. You know what I have posted is correct." Like I said, I'm an honest person especially when it comes to my beliefs. What you posted was not correct no matter how you look at it. We believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Joseph Smith taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. As far as what I have to do is have faith in Christ and show that faith through works of righteousness as the Bible says.
"We're not work based because the Bible isn't work-based. We're not faith-alones because the Bible doesn't teach faith alone."
Self contradictory & unscriptural. You cannot have works+grace (Romans 11:6). Salvation is by a sovereign work of the grace of God through faith alone, and this faith is not of ourselves it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). That is what the Bible teaches majinish, grace and faith alone, all religious boasting in your own works is EXCLUDED (Romans 3:21-28).
@Keruaran What I said is completely biblical. Apparently you don't get it. I didn't say grace+works, I said, as does the Bible, faith+works. If you pay attention to the Bible, unlikely, you'll see that it never says "faith alone". You added the "alone". Faith alone is as heretical as works alone. You'll never realize that because you've been taught the scriptures poorly.
@Keruaran The only thing you've done is mimic what every other anti-Mormon has said. You've not given your own response because you have none. Who are you to tell others what they mean? That's, you telling others what they're supposed to mean, its ignorant. In fact you're no different from anti-Christians of the early Church.
I have responded and scripturally. Not one thing I have said is false and you know it. And for you to say, "Who are you to tell others what they mean?" is the height of hypocrisy since last time we spoke YOU WERE DOING EXACTLY THAT. Remember the Trinity majinish? You can't define it correctly, and you wont allow Christians to define it and tell you what they mean. Go and do your homework majinish and start reading the Bible instead of pretending you know what it teaches.
@Keruaran You gave scripture, just not in context.
"Not one thing I have said is false and you know it. And for you to say" Actually everything you've said has been false.
"Remember the Trinity majinish?" Yes, I remember that heresy.
"Go and do your homework majinish and start reading the Bible instead of pretending you know what it teaches." The problem for people like you is I don't have to pretend. I DO know what the Bible teaches "and you know it."
Nothing but empty rhetoric majinish. Why don't you share with everyone here what *you* believe the *Christian* doctrine of the Trinity is again, because it wont take long before Christians start correcting you and we can all watch you play the same game again whereby you impose an incorrect definition that is not, nor has ever been, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
The scriptures I gave are in context. I challenge anyone to go read them for themselve to see who is lying here.
@Keruaran Its not incorrect. Saying "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit/Ghost" is no different from saying they're 3 Gods.
"The scriptures I gave are in context. I challenge anyone to go read them for themselve to see who is lying here." Lets see what you claim and then lets see what the Bible says.
lol you are amazing. Once again we see a Mormon who presumes to tell Christians what they believe even after complaining about others telling him what he beleives. The hypocrisy is amazing. Not to mention simply being completely wrong! No majinish, the doctrine of THE TRINITY IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN "3 Gods".
Seriously majinish, two thousand years of consistant teaching on the nature of God as one triune being in three persons, you've been corrected numerous times, and you still can't get it right. What's next? You gonna refer me to the "FAIR" website which tells people to get advice on Christian doctrine from Muslims and Jews? How would you feel about me telling people to get advice on Mormon doctrine from a Zoroastrian or a Hindu? There's a word for this majinish: Absurdity.
@Keruaran Romans 11:6 teaches we're saved BY grace. Nobody is disputing that. Your problem, like most people, is you confused faith and grace. They're not the same thing. We're saved BY grace, not by faith or works.
No. You are simply not acknowledging what scripture says and allowing it to speak for itself:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" - Ephesians 2:8
The grace of God is a sovereign act of God and the faith of the believer is NOT from ourselves, that too is a gift from God, "so that no man may boast before God" (1st Corinthians 1:29).
In fact you are disputing that we are saved by grace because you add works to that grace. Thus denying your true state as a sinner, the sovereign grace of God, and the sufficiency of the cross of Christ.
@Keruaran Romans 3:21-28 "Without the deeds of the law" refers to the Law of Moses. We're not saved by the Law of Moses because we're not under it. The verses state justified by faith, it doesn't teach faith alone. "Faith alone" is something you added.
Paul has already established that ALL are under sin whether under the law of Moses or not, and that the law is powerless to save (v20). "all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law" (2:12) and "we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin" (3:9). "there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:22-23).
Paul already established that ALL are under sin and ALL are justified before God only through faith in Jesus Christ (v22). And in v20 that, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified". It makes no difference if someone is a Jew or Gentile, religious or irreligious. It makes no difference if you follow the law of Moses or the "laws and ordinances" of the Mormon gospel - You are still under sin.
It is by grace through faith. I have not added anything, you have.
@Keruaran Ephesians 2:8 Again, you added the "faith alone" part. This verse also doesn't teach what you claim. In Romans 1:5 we learn from Paul that we're given grace for obedience to the faith.
Ephesians 2:5 tells us, "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)". Does a dead man have a partnership with God in earning his salvation? Does he make himself worthy? No. In this context that Paul tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST." (Ephesians 2:8-9 emphasis added).
Previously you have blatantly and repeatedly lied without ceasing just as you are now doing here. Like so many Mormons you are simply not honest and forthcoming about your beliefs. Not only this but you cannot even define Christian beliefs correctly. As long as you go about telling people you are a Christian when your beliefs are radically different from any Christian denomination, you are engaged in the most egregious mendacity and you mislead people horribly.
@Keruaran I haven't lied once. We're Christians and that's something you won't make me back down from saying. I most certainly defined what a REAL Christian is. As long as I tell others we're Christians I'm being honest with people.
The Mormon Church has taught you its gospel of laws and ordinances and made you so very proud in its legalism. It tells you that you have the true gospel. But majinish, if you really did understand the gospel, if you saw this light, and if you genuinely were a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) - Why do you have so much trouble comprehending the absolute fundamentals of the gospel as expounded by Paul in the book of Romans?
@Keruaran The commandments of God are also considered a form of law. There's a difference between God's law and the old Law of Moses. You see, I don't have trouble understanding the fundamentals. I've proven that. I believe in what Paul taught. However, going by how poor you've interpreted Romans and Ephesians I don't have a reason to go by what you say the Bible says. I go by what the Bible says, not you.
The content of your reply here can really be summed up with, "I don't like what you've said, I'm right and you're wrong, I'm Biblical and you're not, so there". If you're going to claim the content of my posts is not a correct exegesis then you need to provide a scriptural refutation, otherwise your words amount to mere empty rhetoric.
@Keruaran No. Its a simple matter of you displaying what kind of "intelligence" you have with the Bible. So far the most you've shown you know about it is the fact that you know the Bible exists. You provided the scriptures already. I explained them.
Looking back over these comments is rather interesting. There's a difference between the law of God and Moses? Really? So, you shall not lie, you shall not steal... God has different laws? And after this kind of nonsensical ramble you say you don't have trouble understanding the fundamentals? You're not even addressing what I said, "the absolute fundamentals of the gospel". Romans alone steamrolls the Mormon gospel majinish, let alone the other epistles.
Excellent video!! I was Mormon for many years before Jesus brought me out! Thank you Lord!! Keep praying for the Mormon people folks. They need salvation!
I wonder how many Christians would not accept this man as a Christian because of his gospel of always attacking Mormons? He employs a tyranny of tolerance, because the Christians all over the world do NOT believe the same things. Otherwise, ALL would be Catholic.
(tothecore) Let me explain for the unlearned. The Mormon god was born a spirit child of male and female gods. Next, he was born in the flesh to mortal parents on a planet near the star Kolob. He progressed by accepting all callings and lived by Josephs laws and ordinances. He died and gathered many wives with secret handshakes. He was gifted with the planet "earth" from "the gods" to populate with children to worship him. Like Darwin, Joseph taught the FORCE rules & men evolve into gods.
DoS 1:221; “DEATH OF TWO TESTATORS REQUIRED…He had to die. Why? Because we read in the scriptures that the testimony is not of force without the death of the testator-that is, in his particular case, and in the case of Christ. It was just as necessary that Hyrum Smith lay down his life a martyr for this cause as a witness for God as it was for Joseph Smith, so the Lord permitted them both to be taken in that way and both sealed their testimony with their blood.”
he makes the good point that lds scripture conflicts with biblical scripture; unfortunately even biblical scripture conflicts itself in numerous places and only abstract thinking or the spirit of god (if you believe in that) can sort out those inconsistencies. as soon as you're willing you make that concession within biblical scripture you must then allow that possibility without as well.
Jews didn't embrace Jesus. and then Jews AND Catholics didn't embrace the churches of the reformation. and now, Jews, Catholics, and Prodestants do not embrace mormonism. Any time Jesus introduces new scripture and new everlasting laws of salvation, men will reject Him.
It is the cycle of Christianity. It is satan's plan to mislead the Christians from Jesus.
@mrCTR2012 The leader, prophet and high priest of the Christian church is Jesus Christ. Who is your leader? Jesus gave us 2 commandments. Every law and the prophets were fulfilled in these 2. You believe you need to add more things to the finished work of Christ?
mormons are unique Christians...they believe the continuation of God talking to man. Just like many Jews did not accept Christ during and after the days of jesus; so is the same today when many Christians will not accept the new and everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days. It makes plenty of sense that many are rejecting Jesus' new gospel in these latter days... many did not receive Jesus when he walked this planet as a man.
His arguments are in error. Among other things, his views of what Mormonism teaches are wrong. And his definition of "Christian" is neither biblical nor validated by reference to a dictionary. In short, he is trying to say that Mormons are not Christian because he does not agree with the. But that is not the definition of Christian.
agreed. Mormons are latter day saints; similar to the saints that followed Christ when he was alive on earth. Christians today are like the jews of Jesus' time. They are doubting the new and everlasting gospel of jesus Christ; brought forth in the last days thru Joseph Smith's translations and revelations.
Its like history is repeating itself. People will always reject Christ. That explains the 1.5 billion muslims on this planet
@mrCTR2012 You want to call Mormons saints of a different god, fine. A gospel that teaches obedience to law is not good news. The lds gospel is bad news and is religious bondage. It never came from Jesus Christ.
We don't follow Christ the way you think we should. You place exclusionary definitions on the word "Christian".
We, too, are concerned for YOUR spiritual welfare. This is why we send out our missionaries. We want YOU to be as happy as we are. We want you to be able to return to God our Heavenly Father, as well as Jesus Christ.
Why do you limit your question to Mormons? Every true follower of Christ has the potential to become a God. I can't tell you how this will work exactly, but our Lord Jesus Christ does not make any empty promises. Maybe this quotation from Irenaeus helps you understand: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is." quoted from Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings...
@wannawatchu66 John 10:34: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Better read the whole episode. It is quite interesting.
The teaching of theosis was the standard in the early Church. The early Christians knew who God is and what is their potential. The knowledge about this was lost during of the centuries.
You don't have to believe me. Study it out and you will find out the truth.
I am sick and tired of mormons calling followers of Christ Jesus, not joseph smith, antimormons. When in reality moromons ARE ANTICHRISTIANS. When mormons proselytize to unbelievers it's out of concern (though I have never met a mormon that truely cared for my soul, and there are plenty in my family), but when Followers of Christ proselytize they are ANTI-MORMONS. Get real.
wow look at all the MORmONS lined up in the comments section to get their piece of hide because a christian dared have an opinion about the REALITY of LDS not being christian.
His argument is specious. He can say that Mormons aren't orthodox Christians, but he can't say that we're not Christian. Christianity is not defined by believing any one doctrine or another, excepting the divinity of Christ and the sacrifices he's made for us. Baptists don't believe as Methodists do, Lutherans don't believe as Presbyterians do, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe as the Amish do, and none of them believe as the Catholics do, but no one challenges their Christianity.
@1ricky77333 This may be extra-biblical, but I'm going to quote it, anyway. In "The Last Battle", Aslan informs a follower of Tash that, despite his professed devotion, his actions show he's actually been a follower of Aslan his whole life. If the Bible is all you require, though, remember what Christ had to say about those who say "Lord, Lord", but he never knew them.
It's not what you call yourself or whose name you wear; it's your works that show whom you've followed in life.
@PaperbackWizard Yeah uh NO. First of all Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians, and some Amish all believe that salvation is by grace through faith. MORmONS and J.W.'s and Catholics, as well as some Amish believe in a works based salvation. None of the other groups you mention believe that Elohim lives on a planet and Satan and Jesus are brothers sons of the MORmON god Elohim. MORmONS deny most of orthodox Christian doctrine, they are not Christian!
@PaperbackWizard There's something called counterfeit Christiantity. Religions that claim the Word of God cannot be trusted, that praise mortal leaders, lower the infinite glory of Christ, who claim that grace must be purchased are counterfeits.
With claims of having the only truth, and doctrines calling Christian teachers minions of Satan will never allow you into the body of Christ. Baptism doesn't save anyone. Jesus does.
@PaperbackWizard Do us all a favor and define "Christian" and your source for your definition. Why do the two terms "Christian" and "Mormon" exist if they mean the same thing?
If I may add, Mormons can't hide the abundance of "Christian bashing" that the organization has been engaged in since the beginning. It is very obvious in those records that the Mormons wanted to distinguish themselves from "Christians". I can list references, if anyone needs them.
@whodidyouexpect A Christian is one who strives to follow Christ and His teachings. We may not understand or even agree on what those teachings are or how best to follow them, but that doesn't make us any less sincere in our efforts.
It's not about what you call yourself, though; it's your actions that define whether you're a follower of Christ or not. If you want a reference, then read the Sermon on the Mount, specifically Matthew 7:21-27. Also Matthew 25:31-40.
@PaperbackWizard Actually, I'd agree with your first sentence. And your last paragraph. Well said!
However, the important and central dividing issue is, as you yourself noted, "not...even agree on what those teachings are". Exactly! That's what Bill pointed out. The differences are large and noteworthy.
Christianity is about Christ, Mormonism is about men. You must follow the living prophet, even if he contradicts what a previous prophet said. To us, there's one Prophet and Apostle: Jesus.
@whodidyouexpect And by the way? Both terms, Mormon and Christian, were invented as slurs, created by those who would mock the followers of the Lord. That's "why" they exist. Again, though, it doesn't really matter what you call yourself.
@PaperbackWizard So, let me ask the obvious since you mentioned actions:
Would Jesus command us to lie to our wife? Or command us to marry 33 women, including teenagers and women with living husbands? (He wasn't getting married for the cake!) Or lie about finding a book of gold plates? Or tell us to sign all our property rights over to him? Or waste $64,000 ($2,400 in 1835) to buy pagan Egyptian artifacts claiming one was a handwritten record of Abraham?
@PaperbackWizard My main focus is sources. And Joseph Smith is not a reliable source. I think it is one reason God, the God and Father of Jesus, sealed the testimony of the genuine apostles with their martyrdom. They were put to death to prove their testimony; they didn't expect us just to take their word for it.
Joseph Smith, on the other hand, killed 2 people before being shot to death at the Carthage prison, didn't he? Compare that with Stephen's reaction in Acts 7:60.
@whodidyouexpect Um, he shot them to protect the three other men who were imprisoned and under attack with him. And, by the way, martyrdom is martyrdom, whether you die defending yourself or not.
But if you're so concerned with sources, then there's really only one you need. I think you know what I mean by that.
@PaperbackWizard Interesting. Where do you get that it was an act of protection? Who said?
You avoided all of my questions about actions regarding what is and is not "Christian". Could it be because the obvious answer is that Joseph Smith wouldn't fit your definition?
You, too, should consider the source of your beliefs. Is the word of a guy who lied to his own wife and his tales of fighting off 3 men, while running and jumping with a 200lb. gold book under 1 arm really a reliable source?
@whodidyouexpect I didn't "avoid" them. I chose not to answer because I don't believe any answer would satisfy you. You don't strike me as the sort of man who asks questions because he wants answers. If you were (are), then you'd probably have known I meant God when I said "sources". No, I don't claim to be a prophet myself, but then, we don't really need to be prophets to hear God's voice, do we? We just need to keep our hearts open and sincerely ask Him for the truth. I hope you all do that.
@PaperbackWizard Well, in the future, don't point out a problem and then not offer a solution, OK? Don't accuse Christian apologists of wrongly defining "Christianity" and then not help us out by giving us the proper definition of it. The best way to correct an incorrect teaching is to replace it with the correct one.
Maybe you didn't avoid the questions, but you just don't want to answer them because the truth is that Joseph Smith would not fit your definition of a Christian.
@whodidyouexpect Again, my thought is you are not here to ask questions as you are to propagate your preconceived notions. If I've misread you, though, then how about we start from the assumption that you're the one who's wrong?
Joseph Smith was lead to an account of ancient followers of Christ in the Americas. God, in His infinite wisdom, knew the world would apostasize from His true gospel and built an environment in which it could grow anew. Joseph was chosen to be his prophet.
He didn't lie about the gold plates. Nor did he lie about the Book of Abraham. If they had been lies, then the money he spent would have been wasted, as you said; but the only way to know if they, and the Book of Mormon, are real is to ask God, as I said earlier. You seem unwilling to do that.
As for the accounts of his "lies" to his wife and his other marriages, I haven't studied those accounts, so I can't properly answer them; for now, though, I am prepared to believe nothing wrong happened
@PaperbackWizard Well, I did ask God and the response I got was it was false. And the testimony of reality shows that its false, too. There.
Research this: Did any of the witnesses see literal, gold plates? (If you research it, you'll find the answer is "no". They saw them with "spiritual eyes".)
BoA is an obvious fraud. Have you even read it? (Seriously.) Look at picture 2, figure 7. Joseph said that was "God on His Throne", but it was actually a mummy with an erection. What nonsense!
One more thing: I already offered my personal definition of "Christian": one who strives to follow the teachings of Christ. ALL of His teachings. If Mormons get some of those teachings wrong, then we are certainly not the only ones. We are, however, just as sincere in our efforts as any other.
@PaperbackWizard Would Jesus try to correct false teaching? Would He always do it in a soft, quiet voice? (John 2:12 ~ 22)
Satanists are sincere, too. Does that mean they're right?
So, tell us: What are "all the teachings of Christ"? If you don't have time to share information on such an important subject, then leave a link. The 3rd Article of Faith for Mormons says "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel". Yet no Mormon can give me a list. Can you?
@ProfoundConfusion1 LDS INC's *unpaid* ministry is like the acting business, most actors make very little or nothing but the top one are the highest paid people in the world !
@Profound... if they are rich men, thats because they spent their lives before they were called working to build their careers OUTSIDE of the church. But most of them are not rich. They do not get paid from our tithing, all the tithing goes to other sources of the church like building churches and temples and serving the poor and needy. Whatever money they have is coming from their lives before they were called to those callings. You dont know what your talking about either so dont start
@redboxgift I suggest, ask Bill McKeever how much he makes. My guess is, he won't tell you. Of course, he is a professional Anti-Mormon and his "Mormonism Research Ministry" has been around for more than 30 years. And obviously he is not starving.
Bearing false witness is a sin, doing it for money makes it just a little graver.
@Troul Here is what LDS leaders say about my religious group.
Joe S. "...all their creeds were abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt."
1 Nephi 14:10 Paraphrase -only two churches. One is the Church of the Lamb of God (restored Mormonism) and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth
@redboxgift You should quote correctly. Joseph Smith - History, verse 19: "I was answered [by the Beloved Son, Jesus Christ; see verse 17], that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in HIS sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men..."
Who can doubt that all that the Lord said applied to the ministers and preachers in the area where Joseph Smith lived. Afterwards they clearly proved what kind of gospel they preached. And still today there are many, among others this guy here, Bill McKeever, who do not care about the Gospel of Love of the Lord Jesus Christ, but instead preach precepts of men.
@Troul478 - How dare you assume that the speaker does not care about the "Good News" of Christ Jesus! Are you in this mans head? Can you read his mind or his thoughts? Then how can you make such a claim?
@PacificNW326 Bill McKeever is no Christian. He has never read e.g. Romans 2:1: "...for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." That man walks around judging others. He does not know the Bible. He has no clue whatsoever.
@Troul478 - Then read Matthew 7:1-2 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. So he is willing to be judged by the same measure he is Judging you. What kind of Christian would he be if he did not point out error when he thought he saw it?
@Troul478 - And that applies to us both as well. You call him "no christion" by that mearsure you to will be judged. I suggest you learn the original languages of the original manuscripts and study, study, study.
@PacificNW326 What Bill McKeever does has nothing to do with these qutations. The McKeever guy does not teach anything he believes. He talks about things he supposes we believe and keeps judging us for it. About 2 John 1:10: Of course you have the right to not receive those (e.g. our missionaries) who bring something you consider wrong teachings, into your house. But you cannot forbid them to preach the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.
@PacificNW326 When you compare Paul to Bill McKeever you compare an apple to an onion. Paul (and obivously also Titus) had a special assignment to watch and preside over certain congregations, namely those he himself had founded. Bill McKeever has no such assignment for the LDS church or part of it. Organisationally we are completely independent from his church. We are not even Evangelicals or Protestants. So, Bill McKeever and others do not have the duty to rebuke us at all.
@Troul478 - You asked for verses, I then provided them. By the very fact that mormons claim to "christian" gives other Christians the duty to rebuke error when noticed. Christ does NOT have a denomination. Christ is NOT Baptist or Catholic or Mormon or Jehovah Withness or Methodist etc. The biblical definition of "Good" is something God approved. So when mormons preach false doctrine there is no good in that.
@PacificNW326 Let me repeat that: Organisationally we have nothing to do with you. Christ has the right to rebuke us all. But neither you nor Bill McKeever are in a comparative position. Let me make this very clear: YOU GUYS ARE NOT CHRIST. Therefore you are not the judges of mankind. Also Christ was very kind to other "denominations". Go and read how he treated the Samaritans e.g. in John 4.
@PacificNW326 Paul cared about the congregations he was in charge of. And by the way. he did not only rebuke them, he also frequently commended them for their faithfulness (see e.g. Romans 1:8). McKeever would never say anything good about us.
So, there is no comparison between the two. Paul did his duty out of love. McKeever simply follows the dictates of his own aggressions.
@Troul478 - And you misinterpret Romans 2:1 - It does not say to NOT judge. It is saying that whatever point you do judge someone on, you too will be judged on that point. Basically, the same as Matt 7:1-2
@PacificNW326 If you want to be judged for everything people around you do wrong or supposedly do wrong then go around and judge them. It's up to you!
God does not force anyone to follow him. Even the Saudi's who flew planes into buildings. They will be accountable for their actions. But God respects all of our agency.
September 11 was not destined to happen. God respects man's agency. Man may be responsible for his actions, but God gives us all the agency to choose whether we will obey or disobey. Further, not every calamity or "natural" occurrence of the elements is given to man to know. His prophets are not weather forecasters. But if it were necessary for his people to know of something, it would be made known. To suggest otherwise is silly.
martin Luther king saw that Christians changed thats why he founded the Lutheran church. It just goes to show you we need modern revelation.
yellowcorba1 1 month ago
I assume that this guy is saying pure nonsense again, since I haven't seen the video.
Mormon - "a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a religion founded in the US in 1830 by Joseph Smith, Jr" (Oxford dictionaries)
Even if a person wouldn't believe in certain things, under this definition, a person is a Mormon if he/she is a member of the church.
However, I don't really mind, I can call anyone Mormon, who believes in the BofM. From any church, religion
TheSkepticChristian 3 months ago
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2:21).
Keruaran 5 months ago
majinish tells us, "In Romans 1:5 we learn from Paul that we're given grace for obedience to the faith". But the text actually says, "we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience OF FAITH" (the NASB is more accurate). But even if we accept the KJV rendering what faith is Paul talking about? The "laws and ordinances" of the Mormon gospel? No, Paul is talking about, "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Rom 3:22).
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran "the NASB is more accurate" lol No its not. Why do you claim it is, because the KJV proves you're wrong? The KJV is the most accurate. It was translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts, the same language of the Old Testament (Hebrew) and New Testament (Greek). Now I see why you don't know the Bible.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
You still offer no scriptural refutation of what I've posted. And on the basis of your rejection of the NASB as an accurate and faithful translation of the scriptures with statements that are not only baseless, ignorant and plain idiotic, you claim I don't know the Bible? Your argumentation has now degenerated to the level of King James Onlyist nuts like Riplinger and Ruckman. Surprisingly bad majinish, even for you.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran My rejection of the NASB is because the KJV was translated from texts similar to the original texts of the scriptures, the NASB was not. I don't just claim you don't know the Bible, you simply demonstrate it on here.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Really majinish, if you won't know what you're talking about its not advisable to keep blustering. I assure you, New Testament textual criticism is something well and truly out of your depth and unless you are determined to make a fool of yourself I don't recommend you continue.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Well its a good thing I'm not the one here making a fool out of themselves. Romans 3 in general speaks about grace and faith. Unfortunately for you it doesn't say anything about faith alone. I understand what the New Testament teaches. Its not faith alone and its not works alone, its both. If a person asks "is it by faith alone or works alone" either way the person answering is going to get the question wrong if they stick with just those 2 choices.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
I'm sorry but that's not good enough majinish. Provide a scriptural refutation.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran In other words because you disagree then its not good enough for you, not that its actually not good enough. I already gave the refutation by explaining the scripture you provided yourself. Its not by faith alone. Romans 3 doesn't teach anything about faith alone. That's just something you evangelicals add.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
You've merely repeated the same claims without providing any reasonable exegesis of scripture that offers anything approximating a refutation.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran I repeated myself because you don't care to listen. The scriptures you gave do NOT say faith "alone". The refutation is in the very scripture, Romans 3:22, you gave. Where does it say faith "alone"? You can't find it because its not there.
majinish 5 months ago
Comment removed
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Romans 3:22 says,
"the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe"
There is nothing additional.
And if because of Joseph Smiths erroneous writings you believe this leaves the door open for, "by grace that we are saved, after all we can do", Ephesians 2:8-9 slams that door shut saying,
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.".
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran No Keruaran, it doesn't. The phrase "after all we can do" doesn't teach that we're saved for our works. We're given the grace of God for obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5) which is the same thing as saying "by grace we are saved, after all we can do." The Bible & Book of Mormon don't counter each other, they support each other. That's not just my opinion, its simply true no matter who says what.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
"The phrase "after all we can do" doesn't teach that we're saved for our works"
It does exactly that majinish. Why don't you tell us what's required for you to make it to the Celestial Kingdom to be with the Heavenly Father majinish? And are you doing all you can do so that you can obtain that "grace"?
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Romans 1:5 certainly is not saying the same whing as "by grace we are saved, after all we can do", not by any reasonable exegesis. You are not allowing scripture to speak for itself and define what that faith is itself. You are imposing unscriptural definitions of "faith" and "grace". 2 Nephi 25:23 represents an outright rejection of the sovereign grace of God in Ephesians 2:8-9. Such teaching from the Mormon Church is in direct opposition to Holy Scripture.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Our teachings are supported by the scriptures including the Bible. Yes, Romans 1:5 teaches pretty much the same as the verse you criticize.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinis
You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23 without ripping Romans 1:5 out of the context it rests in: That is, the book of Romans where the gospel of grace (which 2 Nephi 25:23 rejects) is expounded in detail along with the rest of Paul's writings. If you're going to reinterperet Romans 1:5 with a total disregard for Paul's own definitions, then you're going to have to wrest scripture to the point of absurdity to reinterperet everything else Paul teaches.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinis
You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23 without ripping Romans 1:5 out of the context it rests in: That is, the book of Romans where the gospel of grace (which 2 Nephi 25:23 rejects) is expounded in detail along with the rest of Paul's writings. If you're going to reinterperet Romans 1:5 with a total disregard for Paul's own definitions, then you're going to have to wrest scripture to the point of absurdity to reinterperet everything else Paul teaches.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran "You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23" Why, because you don't like it? lol Yes, it does teach the same thing 2 Nephi 25:23 says.
"without ripping Romans 1:5 out of the context it rests in" That "argument" is what every anti-Mormon is required to use when we LDS, Biblical Christians, describe what the Bible teaches. You echo everything every other anti-Mormon says. I don't interpret them by what you say, I interpret them by what the scriptures say.
majinish 5 months ago
Comment removed
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
""You cannot interperet Romans 1:5 to mean the same thing as 2 Nephi 25:23" Why, because you don't like it?"
No, becase no reasonable exegesis of the gospel as Paul expounds it in Romans nor any of his other Epistles would provide grounds for such a conclusion. You're not exegeting scripture, you're presupposing Mormon doctrine and eisegetically reading that into a text which doesn't support it. Once again, you wrest the scriptures and don't allow scripture to speak for itself.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Furthermore, if you're going to wrench Romans 1:5 out of its context and turn it into something that is out of step with everything else Paul teaches you reveal that you are not actually interested in understanding what the Apostle Paul has written, but rather that your agenda is to impose upon scripture your own presuppositions and doctrines with a willingness to distort and misrepresent the text to make it fit your doctrines.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Any works that preceeds grace nullifies that grace. It is by definition works based salvation since works are placed ahead of grace clearly as a prerequisite. Grace "after all we can do" is not grace at all. In stark contrast Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved through faith". It is past tense and goes further saying of the faith of the believer is "not of yourselves". Salvation is unearned, it is a free gift of God "not as a result of works, so that no one may boast".
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Like Paul says, we're given grace for obedience to the faith, not for faith alone. Its not an either/or.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Again you demonstrate that you're not interested in understanding what Paul has written. I think it has been explained clearly enough already. But if you want to continue, the stark contrast between scripture and what the Mormon Church teaches will only become more obvious (as if it wasn't already).
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Its amazing that you completely bypass the fact that I have already covered the KJV rendering of the text:
"But even if we accept the KJV rendering what faith is Paul talking about? The "laws and ordinances" of the Mormon gospel? No, Paul is talking about, "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Rom 3:22)."
You provide no scriptural refutation and want to argue about the NASB instead as if this is relevant. It's not.
Keruaran 5 months ago
Thank you for your concern. It honestly touched me that you care for my salvation. But, I believe that Jesus Christ, Born of the Virgin Mary and God our Heavenly Father, atoned for my/our sins in Gethsemane and bled on the cross for all mankind. I believe that over centuries the truth was corrupted by man, for whatever reasons, and has been restored in its fullness by prophets called of God. I believe that we are all sons and daughters of God, and through Him we can all be perfected.
Undomaranel 6 months ago
Oh so if the baptists or methodists or catholics dont agree in every aspect of your denomination they arent christian either. You can say someone is not a baptist, but you cant say someone isnt a christian
jonnygotz2343 8 months ago
This guy is an idiot. We're Christians. So are you going to have a sermon on calling baptists Catholics, or are you going to call Methodists Jehovah's Witnesses?
majinish 8 months ago
Comment removed
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran lol Even though your comment was rightfully removed I can still see it through the comment section of the notification. The problem with what you said is the fact that you claimed I lie when I'm nothing but honest. We're Christians whether you agree or not.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
I removed it majinish, made minor changes an reposted it. You're really not too bright are you. And there is nothing honest about your conduct whatsoever.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Yea, I'm pretty bright. I said we Mormons are Christians because we are. Like I said, I'm an honest person and when I say we're Christians I'm being honest.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
majinish, you don't even know what a Christian is.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Sure do. Someone who believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings. Are you an Evangelical? You act like it and that's not a compliment. Most Evangelicals are like Muslims, they're extremists.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Your definition is not inadequate, it's a deception. The Mormon Jesus is a spirit child of the Father (a created being) and the brother of Satan. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is not a created being but is God who created all things; God incarnate in the flesh. Also when Mormons speak of "his teachings" they are speaking within the context of the "laws and ordinances" of Joseph Smith's false works-based "gospel" which is no gospel at all.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran We believe in the ONLY Jesus Christ there is. We follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible. When we say "his teachings" we're referring to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith also taught the teachings of Jesus Christ. We're not work based because the Bible isn't work-based. We're not faith-alones because the Bible doesn't teach faith alone. Faith alone is just as wrong as works alone. Its not either/or, its both. That's the Biblical teaching.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
"We believe in the ONLY Jesus Christ there is"
That is a lie majinish. You know what I have posted is correct.
"We follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible"
That is a lie majinish. You know what I have posted is correct.
"Joseph Smith also taught the teachings of Jesus Christ"
Joseph Smith taught a false gospel.
"We're not work based because the Bible isn't work-based"
What do you have to do to be with the heavenly Father majinish?
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran "That is a lie majinish. You know what I have posted is correct." Like I said, I'm an honest person especially when it comes to my beliefs. What you posted was not correct no matter how you look at it. We believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Joseph Smith taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. As far as what I have to do is have faith in Christ and show that faith through works of righteousness as the Bible says.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
"We're not work based because the Bible isn't work-based. We're not faith-alones because the Bible doesn't teach faith alone."
Self contradictory & unscriptural. You cannot have works+grace (Romans 11:6). Salvation is by a sovereign work of the grace of God through faith alone, and this faith is not of ourselves it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). That is what the Bible teaches majinish, grace and faith alone, all religious boasting in your own works is EXCLUDED (Romans 3:21-28).
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran What I said is completely biblical. Apparently you don't get it. I didn't say grace+works, I said, as does the Bible, faith+works. If you pay attention to the Bible, unlikely, you'll see that it never says "faith alone". You added the "alone". Faith alone is as heretical as works alone. You'll never realize that because you've been taught the scriptures poorly.
majinish 5 months ago
@Keruaran The only thing you've done is mimic what every other anti-Mormon has said. You've not given your own response because you have none. Who are you to tell others what they mean? That's, you telling others what they're supposed to mean, its ignorant. In fact you're no different from anti-Christians of the early Church.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
I have responded and scripturally. Not one thing I have said is false and you know it. And for you to say, "Who are you to tell others what they mean?" is the height of hypocrisy since last time we spoke YOU WERE DOING EXACTLY THAT. Remember the Trinity majinish? You can't define it correctly, and you wont allow Christians to define it and tell you what they mean. Go and do your homework majinish and start reading the Bible instead of pretending you know what it teaches.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran You gave scripture, just not in context.
"Not one thing I have said is false and you know it. And for you to say" Actually everything you've said has been false.
"Remember the Trinity majinish?" Yes, I remember that heresy.
"Go and do your homework majinish and start reading the Bible instead of pretending you know what it teaches." The problem for people like you is I don't have to pretend. I DO know what the Bible teaches "and you know it."
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Nothing but empty rhetoric majinish. Why don't you share with everyone here what *you* believe the *Christian* doctrine of the Trinity is again, because it wont take long before Christians start correcting you and we can all watch you play the same game again whereby you impose an incorrect definition that is not, nor has ever been, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
The scriptures I gave are in context. I challenge anyone to go read them for themselve to see who is lying here.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Its not incorrect. Saying "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit/Ghost" is no different from saying they're 3 Gods.
"The scriptures I gave are in context. I challenge anyone to go read them for themselve to see who is lying here." Lets see what you claim and then lets see what the Bible says.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
lol you are amazing. Once again we see a Mormon who presumes to tell Christians what they believe even after complaining about others telling him what he beleives. The hypocrisy is amazing. Not to mention simply being completely wrong! No majinish, the doctrine of THE TRINITY IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN "3 Gods".
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Seriously majinish, two thousand years of consistant teaching on the nature of God as one triune being in three persons, you've been corrected numerous times, and you still can't get it right. What's next? You gonna refer me to the "FAIR" website which tells people to get advice on Christian doctrine from Muslims and Jews? How would you feel about me telling people to get advice on Mormon doctrine from a Zoroastrian or a Hindu? There's a word for this majinish: Absurdity.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Romans 11:6 teaches we're saved BY grace. Nobody is disputing that. Your problem, like most people, is you confused faith and grace. They're not the same thing. We're saved BY grace, not by faith or works.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
No. You are simply not acknowledging what scripture says and allowing it to speak for itself:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" - Ephesians 2:8
The grace of God is a sovereign act of God and the faith of the believer is NOT from ourselves, that too is a gift from God, "so that no man may boast before God" (1st Corinthians 1:29).
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
In fact you are disputing that we are saved by grace because you add works to that grace. Thus denying your true state as a sinner, the sovereign grace of God, and the sufficiency of the cross of Christ.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Romans 3:21-28 "Without the deeds of the law" refers to the Law of Moses. We're not saved by the Law of Moses because we're not under it. The verses state justified by faith, it doesn't teach faith alone. "Faith alone" is something you added.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Part 1:
Paul has already established that ALL are under sin whether under the law of Moses or not, and that the law is powerless to save (v20). "all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law" (2:12) and "we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin" (3:9). "there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (3:22-23).
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Part 2:
Paul already established that ALL are under sin and ALL are justified before God only through faith in Jesus Christ (v22). And in v20 that, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified". It makes no difference if someone is a Jew or Gentile, religious or irreligious. It makes no difference if you follow the law of Moses or the "laws and ordinances" of the Mormon gospel - You are still under sin.
It is by grace through faith. I have not added anything, you have.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran Ephesians 2:8 Again, you added the "faith alone" part. This verse also doesn't teach what you claim. In Romans 1:5 we learn from Paul that we're given grace for obedience to the faith.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Ephesians 2:5 tells us, "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)". Does a dead man have a partnership with God in earning his salvation? Does he make himself worthy? No. In this context that Paul tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST." (Ephesians 2:8-9 emphasis added).
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Previously you have blatantly and repeatedly lied without ceasing just as you are now doing here. Like so many Mormons you are simply not honest and forthcoming about your beliefs. Not only this but you cannot even define Christian beliefs correctly. As long as you go about telling people you are a Christian when your beliefs are radically different from any Christian denomination, you are engaged in the most egregious mendacity and you mislead people horribly.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran I haven't lied once. We're Christians and that's something you won't make me back down from saying. I most certainly defined what a REAL Christian is. As long as I tell others we're Christians I'm being honest with people.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
The Mormon Church has taught you its gospel of laws and ordinances and made you so very proud in its legalism. It tells you that you have the true gospel. But majinish, if you really did understand the gospel, if you saw this light, and if you genuinely were a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) - Why do you have so much trouble comprehending the absolute fundamentals of the gospel as expounded by Paul in the book of Romans?
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran The commandments of God are also considered a form of law. There's a difference between God's law and the old Law of Moses. You see, I don't have trouble understanding the fundamentals. I've proven that. I believe in what Paul taught. However, going by how poor you've interpreted Romans and Ephesians I don't have a reason to go by what you say the Bible says. I go by what the Bible says, not you.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
The content of your reply here can really be summed up with, "I don't like what you've said, I'm right and you're wrong, I'm Biblical and you're not, so there". If you're going to claim the content of my posts is not a correct exegesis then you need to provide a scriptural refutation, otherwise your words amount to mere empty rhetoric.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@Keruaran No. Its a simple matter of you displaying what kind of "intelligence" you have with the Bible. So far the most you've shown you know about it is the fact that you know the Bible exists. You provided the scriptures already. I explained them.
majinish 5 months ago
@majinish
Provide a scriptural refutation majinish.
Keruaran 5 months ago
@majinish
Looking back over these comments is rather interesting. There's a difference between the law of God and Moses? Really? So, you shall not lie, you shall not steal... God has different laws? And after this kind of nonsensical ramble you say you don't have trouble understanding the fundamentals? You're not even addressing what I said, "the absolute fundamentals of the gospel". Romans alone steamrolls the Mormon gospel majinish, let alone the other epistles.
Keruaran 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@majinish
Cut it out majinish you lying piece of pond scum. You're no more a Christian than a Muslim, a Hindu, or Tom Cruise.
Keruaran 5 months ago
Excellent video!! I was Mormon for many years before Jesus brought me out! Thank you Lord!! Keep praying for the Mormon people folks. They need salvation!
blessedmamaof10 9 months ago
I wonder how many Christians would not accept this man as a Christian because of his gospel of always attacking Mormons? He employs a tyranny of tolerance, because the Christians all over the world do NOT believe the same things. Otherwise, ALL would be Catholic.
mormonanswerman 10 months ago
watch?v=YMLSQe4Bnek&feature=related
mormons=pwned
eiffelouvre 11 months ago
(tothecore) Let me explain for the unlearned. The Mormon god was born a spirit child of male and female gods. Next, he was born in the flesh to mortal parents on a planet near the star Kolob. He progressed by accepting all callings and lived by Josephs laws and ordinances. He died and gathered many wives with secret handshakes. He was gifted with the planet "earth" from "the gods" to populate with children to worship him. Like Darwin, Joseph taught the FORCE rules & men evolve into gods.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
LDS BLASPHEMY
DoS 1:221; “DEATH OF TWO TESTATORS REQUIRED…He had to die. Why? Because we read in the scriptures that the testimony is not of force without the death of the testator-that is, in his particular case, and in the case of Christ. It was just as necessary that Hyrum Smith lay down his life a martyr for this cause as a witness for God as it was for Joseph Smith, so the Lord permitted them both to be taken in that way and both sealed their testimony with their blood.”
bdplist 1 year ago
@bdplist Joey and Hyrum died to seal the lie against Christ? Satans happy.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
What if Mormons called themselves Evangelicals? Which they wouldn't. Why should they?
Troul478 1 year ago
he makes the good point that lds scripture conflicts with biblical scripture; unfortunately even biblical scripture conflicts itself in numerous places and only abstract thinking or the spirit of god (if you believe in that) can sort out those inconsistencies. as soon as you're willing you make that concession within biblical scripture you must then allow that possibility without as well.
similitudinous 1 year ago
Jews didn't embrace Jesus. and then Jews AND Catholics didn't embrace the churches of the reformation. and now, Jews, Catholics, and Prodestants do not embrace mormonism. Any time Jesus introduces new scripture and new everlasting laws of salvation, men will reject Him.
It is the cycle of Christianity. It is satan's plan to mislead the Christians from Jesus.
mrCTR2012 1 year ago
@mrCTR2012 The leader, prophet and high priest of the Christian church is Jesus Christ. Who is your leader? Jesus gave us 2 commandments. Every law and the prophets were fulfilled in these 2. You believe you need to add more things to the finished work of Christ?
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
mormons are unique Christians...they believe the continuation of God talking to man. Just like many Jews did not accept Christ during and after the days of jesus; so is the same today when many Christians will not accept the new and everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days. It makes plenty of sense that many are rejecting Jesus' new gospel in these latter days... many did not receive Jesus when he walked this planet as a man.
mrCTR2012 1 year ago
His arguments are in error. Among other things, his views of what Mormonism teaches are wrong. And his definition of "Christian" is neither biblical nor validated by reference to a dictionary. In short, he is trying to say that Mormons are not Christian because he does not agree with the. But that is not the definition of Christian.
ImLDSRU2 1 year ago
@ImLDSRU2
agreed. Mormons are latter day saints; similar to the saints that followed Christ when he was alive on earth. Christians today are like the jews of Jesus' time. They are doubting the new and everlasting gospel of jesus Christ; brought forth in the last days thru Joseph Smith's translations and revelations.
Its like history is repeating itself. People will always reject Christ. That explains the 1.5 billion muslims on this planet
wide is the path to destruction.
mrCTR2012 1 year ago
@mrCTR2012 You want to call Mormons saints of a different god, fine. A gospel that teaches obedience to law is not good news. The lds gospel is bad news and is religious bondage. It never came from Jesus Christ.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
We don't follow Christ the way you think we should. You place exclusionary definitions on the word "Christian".
We, too, are concerned for YOUR spiritual welfare. This is why we send out our missionaries. We want YOU to be as happy as we are. We want you to be able to return to God our Heavenly Father, as well as Jesus Christ.
lindalds 1 year ago
Why do you limit your question to Mormons? Every true follower of Christ has the potential to become a God. I can't tell you how this will work exactly, but our Lord Jesus Christ does not make any empty promises. Maybe this quotation from Irenaeus helps you understand: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is." quoted from Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings...
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 You said, "Every true follower of Christ has the potential to become a God." Say WHAT? God would beg to differ.
He said in Isaiah 43:10 "...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Sounds to me like God has the corner on the market of being God.
wannawatchu66 1 year ago
@wannawatchu66 John 10:34: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Better read the whole episode. It is quite interesting.
The teaching of theosis was the standard in the early Church. The early Christians knew who God is and what is their potential. The knowledge about this was lost during of the centuries.
You don't have to believe me. Study it out and you will find out the truth.
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 Out of context...more on this later.
wannawatchu66 1 year ago
@wannawatchu66 Haha.
Troul478 1 year ago
I am sick and tired of mormons calling followers of Christ Jesus, not joseph smith, antimormons. When in reality moromons ARE ANTICHRISTIANS. When mormons proselytize to unbelievers it's out of concern (though I have never met a mormon that truely cared for my soul, and there are plenty in my family), but when Followers of Christ proselytize they are ANTI-MORMONS. Get real.
PacificNW326 1 year ago
Excellent video. Nice starting premise too!
praestant8 2 years ago
wow look at all the MORmONS lined up in the comments section to get their piece of hide because a christian dared have an opinion about the REALITY of LDS not being christian.
settypatch 2 years ago
His argument is specious. He can say that Mormons aren't orthodox Christians, but he can't say that we're not Christian. Christianity is not defined by believing any one doctrine or another, excepting the divinity of Christ and the sacrifices he's made for us. Baptists don't believe as Methodists do, Lutherans don't believe as Presbyterians do, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe as the Amish do, and none of them believe as the Catholics do, but no one challenges their Christianity.
PaperbackWizard 2 years ago 4
@PaperbackWizard It easy to say Mormon aren't Christian because they have nothing to do with Christianity.
1ricky77333 1 year ago
@1ricky77333 This may be extra-biblical, but I'm going to quote it, anyway. In "The Last Battle", Aslan informs a follower of Tash that, despite his professed devotion, his actions show he's actually been a follower of Aslan his whole life. If the Bible is all you require, though, remember what Christ had to say about those who say "Lord, Lord", but he never knew them.
It's not what you call yourself or whose name you wear; it's your works that show whom you've followed in life.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard
Sorry, you can't know the Jesus of the Bible through a false gospel that is destine for hell.
And thats putting it nicely.
1ricky77333 1 year ago
@1ricky77333 I agree; which leaves only the question of which gospel is false and which isn't.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard Yeah uh NO. First of all Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians, and some Amish all believe that salvation is by grace through faith. MORmONS and J.W.'s and Catholics, as well as some Amish believe in a works based salvation. None of the other groups you mention believe that Elohim lives on a planet and Satan and Jesus are brothers sons of the MORmON god Elohim. MORmONS deny most of orthodox Christian doctrine, they are not Christian!
kingseller1 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard There's something called counterfeit Christiantity. Religions that claim the Word of God cannot be trusted, that praise mortal leaders, lower the infinite glory of Christ, who claim that grace must be purchased are counterfeits.
With claims of having the only truth, and doctrines calling Christian teachers minions of Satan will never allow you into the body of Christ. Baptism doesn't save anyone. Jesus does.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
@awolLDSasap Baptism is essential for entrance into the kingdom of heaven. That's biblical.
JediMormon 1 year ago
@JediMormon Only in Mormonism it's essential. That's why you're baptizing dead people.
awolLDSasap 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard Do us all a favor and define "Christian" and your source for your definition. Why do the two terms "Christian" and "Mormon" exist if they mean the same thing?
If I may add, Mormons can't hide the abundance of "Christian bashing" that the organization has been engaged in since the beginning. It is very obvious in those records that the Mormons wanted to distinguish themselves from "Christians". I can list references, if anyone needs them.
Thanks!
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
@whodidyouexpect A Christian is one who strives to follow Christ and His teachings. We may not understand or even agree on what those teachings are or how best to follow them, but that doesn't make us any less sincere in our efforts.
It's not about what you call yourself, though; it's your actions that define whether you're a follower of Christ or not. If you want a reference, then read the Sermon on the Mount, specifically Matthew 7:21-27. Also Matthew 25:31-40.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
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@PaperbackWizard Actually, I'd agree with your first sentence. And your last paragraph. Well said!
However, the important and central dividing issue is, as you yourself noted, "not...even agree on what those teachings are". Exactly! That's what Bill pointed out. The differences are large and noteworthy.
Christianity is about Christ, Mormonism is about men. You must follow the living prophet, even if he contradicts what a previous prophet said. To us, there's one Prophet and Apostle: Jesus.
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
@whodidyouexpect And by the way? Both terms, Mormon and Christian, were invented as slurs, created by those who would mock the followers of the Lord. That's "why" they exist. Again, though, it doesn't really matter what you call yourself.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard So, let me ask the obvious since you mentioned actions:
Would Jesus command us to lie to our wife? Or command us to marry 33 women, including teenagers and women with living husbands? (He wasn't getting married for the cake!) Or lie about finding a book of gold plates? Or tell us to sign all our property rights over to him? Or waste $64,000 ($2,400 in 1835) to buy pagan Egyptian artifacts claiming one was a handwritten record of Abraham?
Is that "Christian"?
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard My main focus is sources. And Joseph Smith is not a reliable source. I think it is one reason God, the God and Father of Jesus, sealed the testimony of the genuine apostles with their martyrdom. They were put to death to prove their testimony; they didn't expect us just to take their word for it.
Joseph Smith, on the other hand, killed 2 people before being shot to death at the Carthage prison, didn't he? Compare that with Stephen's reaction in Acts 7:60.
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
@whodidyouexpect Um, he shot them to protect the three other men who were imprisoned and under attack with him. And, by the way, martyrdom is martyrdom, whether you die defending yourself or not.
But if you're so concerned with sources, then there's really only one you need. I think you know what I mean by that.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard Interesting. Where do you get that it was an act of protection? Who said?
You avoided all of my questions about actions regarding what is and is not "Christian". Could it be because the obvious answer is that Joseph Smith wouldn't fit your definition?
You, too, should consider the source of your beliefs. Is the word of a guy who lied to his own wife and his tales of fighting off 3 men, while running and jumping with a 200lb. gold book under 1 arm really a reliable source?
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
@whodidyouexpect I didn't "avoid" them. I chose not to answer because I don't believe any answer would satisfy you. You don't strike me as the sort of man who asks questions because he wants answers. If you were (are), then you'd probably have known I meant God when I said "sources". No, I don't claim to be a prophet myself, but then, we don't really need to be prophets to hear God's voice, do we? We just need to keep our hearts open and sincerely ask Him for the truth. I hope you all do that.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard Well, in the future, don't point out a problem and then not offer a solution, OK? Don't accuse Christian apologists of wrongly defining "Christianity" and then not help us out by giving us the proper definition of it. The best way to correct an incorrect teaching is to replace it with the correct one.
Maybe you didn't avoid the questions, but you just don't want to answer them because the truth is that Joseph Smith would not fit your definition of a Christian.
Thoughts?
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
@whodidyouexpect Again, my thought is you are not here to ask questions as you are to propagate your preconceived notions. If I've misread you, though, then how about we start from the assumption that you're the one who's wrong?
Joseph Smith was lead to an account of ancient followers of Christ in the Americas. God, in His infinite wisdom, knew the world would apostasize from His true gospel and built an environment in which it could grow anew. Joseph was chosen to be his prophet.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
He didn't lie about the gold plates. Nor did he lie about the Book of Abraham. If they had been lies, then the money he spent would have been wasted, as you said; but the only way to know if they, and the Book of Mormon, are real is to ask God, as I said earlier. You seem unwilling to do that.
As for the accounts of his "lies" to his wife and his other marriages, I haven't studied those accounts, so I can't properly answer them; for now, though, I am prepared to believe nothing wrong happened
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard Well, I did ask God and the response I got was it was false. And the testimony of reality shows that its false, too. There.
Research this: Did any of the witnesses see literal, gold plates? (If you research it, you'll find the answer is "no". They saw them with "spiritual eyes".)
BoA is an obvious fraud. Have you even read it? (Seriously.) Look at picture 2, figure 7. Joseph said that was "God on His Throne", but it was actually a mummy with an erection. What nonsense!
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
One more thing: I already offered my personal definition of "Christian": one who strives to follow the teachings of Christ. ALL of His teachings. If Mormons get some of those teachings wrong, then we are certainly not the only ones. We are, however, just as sincere in our efforts as any other.
PaperbackWizard 1 year ago
@PaperbackWizard Would Jesus try to correct false teaching? Would He always do it in a soft, quiet voice? (John 2:12 ~ 22)
Satanists are sincere, too. Does that mean they're right?
So, tell us: What are "all the teachings of Christ"? If you don't have time to share information on such an important subject, then leave a link. The 3rd Article of Faith for Mormons says "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel". Yet no Mormon can give me a list. Can you?
whodidyouexpect 1 year ago
Protestantism was cast off from traditional "christianity" centuries ago, and has no leg upon which to stand.
scubawrestler 2 years ago
The guy in the video made me cry. Hellfire Evangelicals can be so compassionate!
Or could it be that he fights Mormonism because he wants to defend his position and his good income as a preacher?
Troul478 2 years ago
He makes a lot less money than the leaders of YOUR church......
UNPAID MY ASS!!!!!
They sit on the board of COJCLDS owned companies.EXTREMELY well paid postions (which don't involve much actual work BTW !)
Face the facts, the senior members of your church are rich men
.
They make money from the CHURCH.......from YOUR mandatory 10% tithing.
Don't try to give us your crap speculation about this minister (in the video) you actually know nothing about.
ProfoundConfusion1 2 years ago
@ProfoundConfusion1 LDS INC's *unpaid* ministry is like the acting business, most actors make very little or nothing but the top one are the highest paid people in the world !
settypatch 2 years ago
@Profound... if they are rich men, thats because they spent their lives before they were called working to build their careers OUTSIDE of the church. But most of them are not rich. They do not get paid from our tithing, all the tithing goes to other sources of the church like building churches and temples and serving the poor and needy. Whatever money they have is coming from their lives before they were called to those callings. You dont know what your talking about either so dont start
buffielo 2 years ago
D&C 43:12,13 & 41:42:71-73. Revelation of financial support for church leaders given to Joseph in 1831.
Hinckley says general officers and mission presidents are given living allowances.
Encyclopedia of Mormonism says that general authorities are given living allowances.
Salt Lake Tribune 1988- the $1.2 million condo at 40 N State is home to LDS pres.
The general mission fund to support missionaries with insufficient funds.
Wall Street Journal 1983, salary to a 70, was $40,000.
redboxgift 1 year ago
What a hate-filled thing to say, Troul478! You must be a LATTER-DAY SAINT!
theminimumdog 2 years ago
Sometimes the loving thing to do is harsh. Example - I will yell very loud and harshly at my child if a car they don't see is about to hit them.
By the way, do you know how much Bill makes, or were you just making an assumption? Check facts!!
redboxgift 1 year ago
@redboxgift I suggest, ask Bill McKeever how much he makes. My guess is, he won't tell you. Of course, he is a professional Anti-Mormon and his "Mormonism Research Ministry" has been around for more than 30 years. And obviously he is not starving.
Bearing false witness is a sin, doing it for money makes it just a little graver.
Troul478 1 year ago
Again speculation on your part
redboxgift 1 year ago
You ask him.
You are the one who brought up money with no facts to substantiate your claims.
Pure speculation on your part.
Even so, your whole argument you learned from LDS leaders of paid ministry is off base.
Levites - supported by tithes (Numbers )
1 Tim 5:17-18; 1 Cor 9:11.14 - Paid ministry.
redboxgift 1 year ago
@redboxgift LDS leaders NEVER say anything negative about other religious groups. So, I haven't learned that from them.
Agreed. I'll try to get in touch with Bill McKeever. As soon as I get an answer, I'll inform you. Ok?
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul Here is what LDS leaders say about my religious group.
Joe S. "...all their creeds were abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt."
1 Nephi 14:10 Paraphrase -only two churches. One is the Church of the Lamb of God (restored Mormonism) and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth
That's negative!
redboxgift 1 year ago
@redboxgift You should quote correctly. Joseph Smith - History, verse 19: "I was answered [by the Beloved Son, Jesus Christ; see verse 17], that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in HIS sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrine the commandments of men..."
Troul478 1 year ago
Who can doubt that all that the Lord said applied to the ministers and preachers in the area where Joseph Smith lived. Afterwards they clearly proved what kind of gospel they preached. And still today there are many, among others this guy here, Bill McKeever, who do not care about the Gospel of Love of the Lord Jesus Christ, but instead preach precepts of men.
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - How dare you assume that the speaker does not care about the "Good News" of Christ Jesus! Are you in this mans head? Can you read his mind or his thoughts? Then how can you make such a claim?
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 Bill McKeever is no Christian. He has never read e.g. Romans 2:1: "...for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." That man walks around judging others. He does not know the Bible. He has no clue whatsoever.
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - Then read Matthew 7:1-2 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. So he is willing to be judged by the same measure he is Judging you. What kind of Christian would he be if he did not point out error when he thought he saw it?
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@Troul478 - And that applies to us both as well. You call him "no christion" by that mearsure you to will be judged. I suggest you learn the original languages of the original manuscripts and study, study, study.
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 I know the sermon on the mount and it is nice to hear that you have read it, too.
Now, give me the verse in the Bible where Jesus commands his disciples to walk around and "point out error" in everybody.
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - Titus 1:10-14, Ephesians 5:11, 1 Peter 3:15-16, Matt 28:20, 2 John 1:10-11
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 What Bill McKeever does has nothing to do with these qutations. The McKeever guy does not teach anything he believes. He talks about things he supposes we believe and keeps judging us for it. About 2 John 1:10: Of course you have the right to not receive those (e.g. our missionaries) who bring something you consider wrong teachings, into your house. But you cannot forbid them to preach the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Troul478 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 When you compare Paul to Bill McKeever you compare an apple to an onion. Paul (and obivously also Titus) had a special assignment to watch and preside over certain congregations, namely those he himself had founded. Bill McKeever has no such assignment for the LDS church or part of it. Organisationally we are completely independent from his church. We are not even Evangelicals or Protestants. So, Bill McKeever and others do not have the duty to rebuke us at all.
Troul478 1 year ago
Comment removed
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 other anti-Mormons, of course
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - You asked for verses, I then provided them. By the very fact that mormons claim to "christian" gives other Christians the duty to rebuke error when noticed. Christ does NOT have a denomination. Christ is NOT Baptist or Catholic or Mormon or Jehovah Withness or Methodist etc. The biblical definition of "Good" is something God approved. So when mormons preach false doctrine there is no good in that.
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@ Troul478 - Follow me for a moment please. Does your church teach that eventually one may become a God?
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 Let me repeat that: Organisationally we have nothing to do with you. Christ has the right to rebuke us all. But neither you nor Bill McKeever are in a comparative position. Let me make this very clear: YOU GUYS ARE NOT CHRIST. Therefore you are not the judges of mankind. Also Christ was very kind to other "denominations". Go and read how he treated the Samaritans e.g. in John 4.
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - Will any mormons eventually becoma a God? Will any past living Mormons ever become a God?
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@Troul478 Your not a denomination -- mormonism is a non-christian cult.
1ricky77333 1 year ago
@1ricky77333 If you believe that walking around and provoking everybody is an important part of Christianity then go ahead. I don't care.
Troul478 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 Paul cared about the congregations he was in charge of. And by the way. he did not only rebuke them, he also frequently commended them for their faithfulness (see e.g. Romans 1:8). McKeever would never say anything good about us.
So, there is no comparison between the two. Paul did his duty out of love. McKeever simply follows the dictates of his own aggressions.
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - Those are JUST a few.
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@Troul478 - And you misinterpret Romans 2:1 - It does not say to NOT judge. It is saying that whatever point you do judge someone on, you too will be judged on that point. Basically, the same as Matt 7:1-2
PacificNW326 1 year ago
@PacificNW326 If you want to be judged for everything people around you do wrong or supposedly do wrong then go around and judge them. It's up to you!
Troul478 1 year ago
@Troul478 - ALL SIN IS EQUAL. SIN=SIN. Sin is transgressing the Law of God.
PacificNW326 1 year ago
God does not force anyone to follow him. Even the Saudi's who flew planes into buildings. They will be accountable for their actions. But God respects all of our agency.
soslinio 2 years ago
God doesn't force anything on anyone.
September 11 was not destined to happen. God respects man's agency. Man may be responsible for his actions, but God gives us all the agency to choose whether we will obey or disobey. Further, not every calamity or "natural" occurrence of the elements is given to man to know. His prophets are not weather forecasters. But if it were necessary for his people to know of something, it would be made known. To suggest otherwise is silly.
soslinio 2 years ago
God didn't make Sept 11 happen. Just like he didn't harden Pharaoh's heart....
soslinio 2 years ago
Yes, but did God send a warning to the brethren in Manti and Salt lake when the tornados ripped through?
Why didn't the prophet warn the workers on top of the new conference center?
Know why? Because the prophet has never talked to God.
awolLDSasap 2 years ago
You're hilarious. Your logic asks why Jesus didn't warn the apostles of the approaching storm while he slept.
The elements are set in motion.
soslinio 2 years ago
Surely the Lord God will do NOTHING until revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7
soslinio 2 years ago
They must be true prophets, not false prophets.
awolLDSasap 2 years ago
Isn't it odd that people believe in dead prophets but not living ones?
soslinio 2 years ago
False prophets do not apply.
awolLDSasap 2 years ago
I agree. So they would have to be called like they were in the Bible. And receive their authority like they did in the Bible. Oh wait...
soslinio 2 years ago