1/2 - David Harvey on capitalist crisis - Democracy Now! - 2009-04-02

[revtevye]

Lots of communist enthusiasts I see. Didn't you guys take History courses at school? Communism has been the most ineffective, despotic and murderous social system in modern times. Sure, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are not "real" communists... keep pipe-dreaming to your abstractions about communism fellas...

[weavermama]

Do these seem as though they can be achieved/maintained sans a government ( a declared monopoly of force within a given geographical region)? The ten planks are laden with the implicit use of force. Can a govt. willing to deprive people of their belongings through coercion and violence be benevolent enough not only to redistribute them equitably, but to also disavow its own claim to power in the end? The atrocities perpetrated by the soviets and chinese were in accordance with the C-manifesto.

[LLit11]

a marxist on democracy now. oh the irony.

[Bigscott89]

@LLit11 Well if you knew what marx stood for you , you would know there is no irony.

[weavermama]

“From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time.” Friedrich August Hayek

[jazzbo66zz]

@weavermama

Baloney, Hayek is mistaken if he expects to establish an argument moralizing his hierarchy on the assertion that "From the fact that people are very different it follows". His premise is assumed but he fails to demonstrate the parenthetical "fact that people are very different". The right wing is in sorry shape if Hayek is seriously being put forward as an intellectual.

[ashwinhalgeri]

@weavermama Hayek is confusing different and unequal. Just because we are all different from one another doesn't mean we are all unequal to one another. We can be equal but different, and this is a concept that really needs to be understood.

[weavermama]

@ashwinhalgeri I respectfully suggest you re-read the quote. To the extent that you are advocating equality of opportunity (equality before the law), we are in agreement; To the extent you seek absolute material equality through any means other than voluntary action, we are opposed. Affirmative action is an excellent example of the dichotomy expressed in the quote. Hayek also wrote a piece pertinent to this discussion called, " Against Collectivist Means Not Socialist Ends."

[ilkkavu]

@ashwinhalgeri There's nothing great in being very different. We should all have high IQ:s and good genes. This is possible with present day technology.

[revtevye]

@ilkkavu You would've looooved Nazi Germany I tell you ;)

[weavermama]

Dear useful idiots (take offense if it applies), Milton Freidman clearly demonstrates that the unholy coalition between special interests, big govt., and legions of well intentioned dupes is responsible for monopolies. Regulations lobbied/imposed/championed by said groups create barriers to entry, stifle competition, protect the economies of scale, discourage innovation, fix prices, etc.. This is the case for everything from raw milk to investment banking to the phone company to the drug war.

[jazzbo66zz]

@weavermama

Beyond the failure of his own ideas Milton Freidman never successfully demonstrated anything in his life. Capitalism and democracy are antithetical to one another and this is news? In many ways Friedman was an intellectual cretin, but I think his career goes a long way to explaining why the right wing is in a tail spin.

[weavermama]

@jazzbo66zz Your ad hominem argument against Friedman demonstrates nothing. As for Democracy, should 51% of the voters be allowed to decide what kind of music you play? I dare say any rationale you could give me in the negative would simply make the case for a Constitutional Republic. Our differences on that one would then be only a matter of degree, not a matter of principle. As for Capitalism, did China and the former USSR not employ vast sums of capital to achieve their ends?

[revtevye]

@jazzbo66zz Southeast Asia, which followed Friedman's economic thinking and the whole of the laissez-faire capitalist West beg to differ.

P.S. Last time I checked Singapore was doing just a wee bit better than Cuba ;)

[Antiks72]

Nothing is gonna change unless we have mass unrest. Imagine people destroying the halls of power in D.C. and other places.

[romeosevendelta]

amy goodman should kill herself.

the 60's won't come back, regardless of how hard she tries.

[Antiks72]

She won't. She loves life fighting pricks like you. :)

[romeosevendelta]

You have no idea what manner of prick i am.

[Antiks72]

A dead one soon, I hope.

[romeosevendelta]

Wow....well at least it's in keeping with the marxist theme here in that we just kill whom ever doesn't agree. Like those bombings during the 60's?

That was very 'progressive'...

[Antiks72]

Last time I checked elimination of enemies wasn't reserved for just Marxists. Just look at how many the U.S. has killed in its wars, for instance.

[romeosevendelta]

But let's turn a blind eye to mao?

A man who killed more people than hitler and stalin before admitting this whole collectivization thing might not be all that great?

[Antiks72]

Sorry, I'm not a Maoist. Yeah it was disaster. They killed all the sparrows, which led to the proliferation of pests that ruined their crops.

[romeosevendelta]

and where did you hear that? berkley?

It's called socialism by the way...

[Antiks72]

No it isn't, nice try. You're trying to paint with a broad brush there. Go fuck yourself.

[romeosevendelta]

Yes, it is.

But go ahead and spend the rest of your life trying to distance your beloved commie values from the masses it has left dead in it's wake.

I mean, come on, people died in u.s. wars because people die in EVERY war. How long did it take the u.s. to kill millions of people compared to what stalin, mao and hitler could manage in a decade or less?

[Antiks72]

@romeosevendelta Your post doesn't even deserve a response. I'm not a Stalinist you fucking idiot. Do you understand? Of course not.

Commie values include the emancipation of the working class from the yoke of bourgeoisie, universal schooling and health care for all. No to imperialism for private profit.

[romeosevendelta]

You can throw 'ist' on the end of any given communist's name you choose, but it's still communism and it kills people.

But go ahead, support communism and see if you don't end up starving and half dead in a ditch because you wren't contributing to society enough or in a camp because you stood up for yourself. Or maybe in prison because you made a buck without state authorization.

[Antiks72]

Read the Communist Manifesto for a good definition of what communism is.  It hasn't happened yet. Communism is a classless society sans a government. It's never been achieved.

The communism you're pointing to is your own definition based on the state capitalist economies of the old Soviet Union and China. With that said, Western propaganda is not to be believed. There are two sides to every story.

[weavermama]

@Antiks72 1 Abolition of property. 2 A heavy progressive/graduated income tax. 3 Abolishment of the right of inheritance. 4 confiscation of property of all emigrants/rebels. 5 Centralization of credit in the hands of the STATE, by means of a national bank with STATE capital and an exclusive MONOPOLY. 6 Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the STATE. 7 extensions of factories/instruments of production owned by the STATE. 8 Equal obligation of all to work...

[romeosevendelta]

@Antiks72

Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Grow up.

[Antiks72]

@romeosevendelta Ad hominem, back at ya.

[romeosevendelta]

@Antiks72

Clear enough that you can't dispute the point anyway. Have a good one...

[Antiks72]

@romeosevendelta NIce dodge.

[ilkkavu]

@romeosevendelta Same goes with capitalism. People are always killed. Communism just kills diffrent people than capitalism.

[revtevye]

@ilkkavu Not a very spirited defense of Communism indeed lol.

[john5246]

@romeosevendelta

Of course since people died before people will always die under communism, it can't be done right and anyone who lives in it will end up in a gas chamber. Great thinking there, is that was your teacher told you to believe?