I have a question;When an infant dies & goes 2 heaven how old is that Infant's soul?Because I think that it would suck 2 be an Infant for all eternity but that's just My opinion what's Your's?
@aaronspencer30 I think a better question is: when does an infant attain this "soul"? When it's just a zygote? When it's less than a hundred cells?
Perhaps an even better question is: what happens when a zygote splits in two and becomes twins? Do those twins share the same soul? If so, how can they have such differing personalities when they grow up?
I need not argue with you, for although you claim to be wise you've truly become foolish in your thinking; for God has given you over to a debased mind because you have suppressed the truth of God. Because you have no Faith you are simply a wave blown and tossed in the ocean. And that kind of person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.
God is sovereign over His Creation, and frankly, He can do whatever He pleases with it; is this not to say that He is likewise sovereign over those He chooses to save? Honestly, the best option is to say "I don't know." It's all in God's hands, and that's good enough for me!
@CBALLEN You still didn't tell me who the World is in Jn12:47 or why In Ez33 God tells us that His preference for people (who He has allready decreed to perish in Hell), is for them to repent & live?
@shteve77 You still don't understand,God knew both finite groups before creation,God is not trying and failing to save the goats,He is letting them go their own way and is not interested in changing their hearts,they will be examples that He will pour His wrath out on and send to Hell in front of those that He chose to set His love on before time.He has plenty of wrath saved up for these,from the time of the flood until the last day,He created them for the day of evil.
@shteve77 Everyone who has ever lived has denied Jesus at sometime in their lives,every Christian at sometime was of THE WORLD,even the elect don't normally believe the first time they hear the gospel,remember,some plant and others water,but it's GOD who gives the increase,so God leaves His elect in the world until He's ready to convert them..
@shteve77Rms 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
The goats were prepared in advance for destruction,while the sheep were prepared for glory.
@CBALLEN All men's steps are determined by God,good,bad and in between,He rules us all and there is purpose in all evil that happens
Prov.21:1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
God holds power over good and bad kings and rulers,He used the Assyrians to discipline Israel and other nations and then destroyed them for taking credit of all their conquering and not giving God the glory,so God then destroyed them for their haughtiness.
@CBALLEN Why does God declare to us that it's His preference that people who perish should live? Why do you say it's God's preference that they perish?
@CBALLEN Sorry, but the only reason that men are spiritually dead is because the Calvinism God created them that way. He created Adam, imposed Irresistible evil on him.
You are ignoring the question. You tried to tell me that God loves everyone differently. How is it loving to create someone only for the purpose of sending them to hell. If God could save all but only saves some how can you argue He loves the ones He doesn't save?
@shteve77 So you're saying that God is not all powerful and He could not have made a garden without a tree He told them not to eat from?I guess He couldn't have found another place to put the Devil either,huh?lol In Heaven man won't be ABLE to sin,is that going to make us all robots since we won't be able to sin?Just admit it,you like your god better than the one of the Bible,you can control him,but not the real one,right?
@CBALLEN You just ramble on but you can't answer a simple question from scripture. Eze33, Why does God tell people who perished in there sins (and who you say God created for the purpose that they would perish) that He (God) would prefer they repent and live?
@shteve77 John 20:31 doesn't say anything about having faith before regeneration.
Also look at 1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him." Notice how "believes" is present tense and "been born" is past tense.
@TheCASSMAN777 If you read the verse it clearly says that we have new life as a result of believing. Before a person believes they are spiritually dead.
"these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and THAT BY BELIEVING you may have life in his name. "
@shteve77 People can't believe until it's granted to them ,remember Jesus says NO MAN will come to Him so he may have life,it's impossible for any lost man to believe(not physically,but Spiritually),they can't obey God's commands Romans 8:7,. God must open their hearts,eyes and ears.The Gospel is for His sheep only ,not the goats and all the sheep in the world will eventually come B4 their death.Is Satan a lion on a leash?Can Satan repent on His own?
@CBALLEN Why aren't you able to answer. If Calvinism were true then you wouldn't have such trouble answering verses like the one I asked about in Eze33. Why does God say that it is His preference, that He would rather the wicked repent and live when you say He always intended for them to perish, infact that He created them only for the purpose that that perish?
@shteve77 Something else to consider is,we are saved by Grace Regenerated and granted faith,to be justified by God then we will be saved,through sanctification we're then being saved unto glorified bodies by Jesus .So if some one says just believe and you will be saved the're normally speaking of God regenerating people unto glorification.
@CBALLEN So when we tell someone if they believe they will be saved,it's true.Of course later when they understand we can tell them how their belief happened.
@CBALLEN You keep quoting your Calvinist mantra but you refuse to answer simple questions from scripture. If the Bible contradicts Calvinism then it is wrong. The scriptures I keep asking about show it is wrong. First, Jn20:31 shows that until we believe we are dead. There's no such thing as a born again, regenerated person who is dead in their sins. Second, why does God say that it's His preference that the wicked repent and live when you say He always intended for them to perish?
@shteve77 Can you name any time God stopped men from sinning in scriptures?I can.Do you really think God couldn't have made this world sinless if that was His plan?Could He have chosen to save everyone?You bet He could.Then why didn't He?That's the 64,000 question isn't it.
@shteve The Bible tells us that Adam was not made a sinner,that Eve was deceived but Adam sinned willfully and Adam was the Federal Head of the whole human race who brought sin and death to us all,is that fair?You need to learn whatever God says is right,is right and if He makes us like He makes us who are you O man to talk back to God,is He not our maker?Can He not do with us as He chooses?Can He not save who He wants and harden who He wants?Your problem is not with me,your problem is with GOD.
@shteve77 Just admit that you hate God and be done with it,because you don't like one thing He does,you believe He misuses His power,you believe He doesn't have the right to do this and that,you think He's mean because He has the power to save everyone but He doesn't ect.All I can tell you is He is God and He has His own reasons for everything He does,He knows more than any of us and anyone who complains about Him and strives with Him is an idiot.Whoa to the man who strives with His maker.
@CBALLEN Actually you should just admit that you proclaim a God who isn't just or love. Be honest and tell people that God hates most people. Stop pretending that God loves everyone by making up some rubbish about "God loves every everyone He just loves some people differently". The fact that you try to justify that the Calvinist God does "in some way" love everyone one shows you know God does really love all men but because the Calvinist God clearly doesn't, you play games with words.
@shteve God tells us that the wages of sin is death,that's His rule.Have you ever sinned?Then if He doesn't kill us after our first sin is this not grace to us?Is that not love to allow us to eat,,work,have kids,things and continue to sin and live to tell about it?Then He says if you believe on my Son who died I will save you from the second death,but man will not come to Christ so that he may have life,isn't this what scripture says?So if you say you're saved,How did you come by your free will?
@CBALLEN Is it love to create someone to eat, drink, irresistibly cause them to sin and then burn them in hell for commiting the sin that you made them commit? No!
@CBALLEN Back to Eze33. This seems to be a difficult question for a Calvinist. Why does God tell people who perished in their sins (and who you say God created for the purpose that they would perish) that He (God) would prefer they repent and live?
@shteve77 Tell me if you can,why did the Egyptians turn against the Hebrews and cause them to throw their male babies in the Nile? I've already told you the answer to your question,now answer mine if you'll be so kind.
@CBALLEN Firstly you have not answered Eze33, Why does God say that it is His preference, that He would rather the wicked repent and live when you say He always intended for them to perish, infact that He created them only for the purpose that that perish?
Actually a better question is why did God's own people (those people in Jer7:31) murder their own children?
@CBALLEN Tell me, if a judge holds a gun at your head and forces you to rob a bank and then a few days later you find yourself in court and the same judge sentences you to jail for doing what he made you do, would you say he is "just"? That he is "love"?
@shteve77 You remind me of the Arminian Roger Olsen,who wrote in his book that a student asked him ,"If it could be proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Calvinist God was God would you worship Him'?He responded,No,I would not.So until God changes Roger's or your heart you can't worship Him and you're probably still in your sins,I don't know that for a fact but I can't see one being saved while hating the one he's supposed to love.
@shteve77 This is no game,this is serious business.Jesus came and died to save His people and God the Son sweated drops of blood because He knew what God the Father pouring out His wrath on Him meant.Jesus didn't fear the beatings or the cross,He knew how terrible the wrath for His peoples sin was.Guess what,Jesus didn't take every ones wrath though,cause God has plenty left for the goats.That's why Jesus wasn't the propitiation for every man,God wouldn't have any more wrath if He did.Think long
@CBALLEN "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."1Jn2:2
Isa53. "We all like sheep have gone astray" (Is it only the elect who have strayed, no all men..."and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of US ALL"
Heb2:9 "Christ tasted death for EVERYONE"
Rom5;18"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to ALL MEN, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN,"
@CBALLEN John wrote this letter about 85 to 90AD. There were many, many gentiles in the church by then. Secondly, I didn't just quote one verse but 4 and there any many others. Are you going to answer the other questions I asked or do you just intend to write your own opinions and ignore others questions? Why does God tell people who perished in there sins (and who you say God created for the purpose that they would perish) that He (God) would prefer they repent and live?
@shteve77 Tell me,does it bother you that God didn't try to save Gentiles in the O.T.?I mean He didn't send them one Gentile prophet,He probably sent 99% of all the people He ever made to Hell and only saved from His chosen people and not even all of them.
@CBALLEN No one is with out excuse. The conscience that God has given all men bears witness to Him.
Rom2
4 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
"Why does God declare to us that it's His preference that people who perish should live? Why do you say it's God's preference that they perish?"
Many of these that He's speaking of/to do turn and believe,but God shows us through progressive revelation that no matter what God says or does,natural men can do nothing but evil,they're spiritually dead and must be brought to life by His Spirit before they can ever repent and believe.The whole O.T. is nothing but one big example of man's depravity.
@CBALLEN Sorry but you are still not answering. We know from history that most of the people that Ezekiel told these words to perished. What I want to know is why would God tell perishing people that it is His preference they live, that He wants them to repent and live if God has created them only for the purpose taht they will perish in Hell?
What you and I have been taught all our lives by MEN is that we must muster up faith in Christ so we can trade this faith to God for His salvation,but the Bible says that natural unsaved men CANNOT DO THIS,no one seeks Him,all are wicked and no good.This is why AS Jesus told Nicodemus"You must be born again",it's the Spirit who brings men to life spiritually so the can and will believe.So all who believe that Jesus died for them have already been regenerated(born from above) and Granted belief.
@CBALLEN No, all who believe are born again. Scripture declares we only have life when we believe. There is no such thing as a regererated, born again person who is still spiritually dead.
@shteve77 This is why salvation is 100% the world of God and 0%us.Jesus Christ is the bridge that goes all the way from God to men or from man to God.Being a Christian is NOT the greatest decision a man can ever make,it's the greatest decision ever made for someone,before the foundation of the world.
@shteve77 "You still didn't tell me who the World is in Jn12:47 or why In Ez33 God tells us that His preference for people (who He has allready decreed to perish in Hell), is for them to repent & live?"
God had many elect in this group who did turn,but not all.He doesn't take pleasure in killing the wicked but He will cast them into Hell.
1Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Armin 2:14 The man without the Spirit does accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are not foolishness to him, and he can understand them, because they are notspiritually discerned.
A sinner that has never been converted will naturally by their own sin nature oppose anything that removes them from their life of selfism. The doctrine of election/predestination makes God really real and removes the person from the position of trying to be their own god. It cuts to the very heart and soul of a person's pride.
The bottom line is,not one person who Jesus died for will be in Hell,He accomplished the salvation of all His sheep on the cross and took all the wrath of God for all their sins.God still has plenty of wrath left for the wicked,so Jesus was NOT a propitiation for them.There were people in Hell while Jesus walked the Earth,did His sacrifice do them any good?
@CBALLEN 2Peter2:1 says otherwise "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
The people in Hell while Jesus walked the Earth did not benefit because unlike the people of old like Abraham etc, those people did not have faith in God.
Romans 9 tells us that God's will is irresistible 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
The question is then how can God hold us accountable since no one can resist His plan,well who are you O MAN to say to God you don't like how He';s made you,He is the potter and can do what He wants to do with His clay.He saves who He chooses.
John 17:9: ‘I (Jesus) pray not for the world.I pray for those you have given me,for they are thine’ Does Jesus refuse to pray for all men without exception?
@CBALLEN God's foreknowledge of the future is not something that He foresees or looks through time to LEARN,God's foreknowledge of the future is the knowledge of How He will have the future HAPPEN.His foreknowledge of people is the same thing,it's people that He has foreloved before creation and it is these who He set His love upon and it is these who Jesus came to die for and save.
@CBALLEN When He was crucified Jesus prayed "“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Jesus also tells us to pray for our enemies. It seems that according to you atleast, Jesus holds us to a higher standard than you think he held Himself.
@shteve77 Jesus asked the Father to forgive them for His crucifixion because it was the act that brought salvation to the world .Thousands were saved shortly after the crucifixion when Peter preached of what they had done,Peter told them that they had ignorantly killed Israel's Messiah,those who believed were the elect.Judas, Caiaphas , Herod,and Pilot didn't fare so well.
@shteve77 Why do you think He was praying for anyone other than the elect who were killing Him,since in the garden He said He was NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD but for those who belonged to God who God had given Him out of the world?
John 1:29: ‘Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.’ Did Christ by His death take away the sin of all men without exception? If He did, all men without exception shall be saved.
John 6:33: ‘For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.’ Does Jesus give life (not, ineffectually offer life, but, efficaciously give life) to all men without exception? If He does, all men without exception have eternal life.
@shteve77 "We recieve salvation by faith. Again those that reject Christ will be condemned."
We are saved by GRACE through faith and both faith and grace are given to us as gifts,we cannot conjure up belief on our own,it comes from God and every person God draws to Christ is saved,all appointed to eternal life believe.
@CBALLEN The context of Phil1, is suffering. This verse is simply saying that God has not only provided us with the opportunity to trust Him but also to suffer for Him. The word "granted" (Greek: echaristhe) means "grace" or "favour." Both the opportunity to suffer for Him and to believe on Him are favours with which God has graced us. No one would argue from this verse that suffering is an immediate & irresistible work of grace but, that is what Calvinists argue it teaches about faith.
@shteve77 "The word "granted" (Greek: echaristhe) means "grace" or "favour." Both the opportunity to suffer for Him and to believe on Him are favours with which God has graced us."
Add this to John 6:44 No one is able to believe unless drawn,and all drawn are saved.These were granted belief,since they could not believe as natural men.We are saved by GRACE through faith,it's all God's gift to His sheep and it is given through the the gospel,only the sheep have ears to hear and eyes to see.
@Disciple1818 Arguing is an exercise in reason, and these are important issues. There is nothing foolish about arguing, although one can argue foolishly.
@SeedsOfHatred Yeah, but its pretty stupid when its not constructive and corrective- when it just becomes a "quarell" founded on pride (and pride in knowledge).
@Disciple1818 When a quarell consists primarily of ad hominem and no real progress is being made, yes. But even two men beating the shit out of each other in a parking lot may be making significant changes in the other's way of thinking for reasons that only they can know.
When one has superior knowledge, and when another has lesser knowledge, sometimes a drawn-out quarell (to outside eyes) may have dramatic effects on either party; be it now or sometime down the road.
@SeedsOfHatred I suppose you are correct, yes, but I would like to insert that knowledge (in the tense of teaching and correcting) means nothing without love.
@Disciple1818 That's not necessarily true. The stove in my childhood home did not "love" me, nor I it, but after burning myself, I was taught not to touch it.
This is, of course, not limited to stoves. People can teach/be taught without love on the part of either party.
@SeedsOfHatred Yes, what you say is true, but what I mean is that there is no benefit in being the "correct" one or "more knowledgeable" one without love because even if you win the argument and are proven right you will be prideful in yourself. If we argue, we need to have the mindset that we are trying to bring them the truth -the mindset of Christ. Unless we are arguing this way (ie: like Paul) it just leads to pridefulness and foolishness- and arguing as if the Bible was simply philosophy.
@Disciple1818 What's wrong with being proud of one's self? When you succeed in something, be it an argument or an activity or a goal, are you not proud of your achievement?
@SeedsOfHatred No, I try not to be prideul; I desire to boast in the Lord- I must become less and He, Jesus, must become greater. I find joy not in my own self but in God and His Truth.
@Disciple1818 Being prideful does not mean boasting. One could boast, yes, and we would think them an asshole, but we can be prideful without being boastful.
With all due respect, it is in the nature of the religious mindset to be subservient at all times. They feel they cannot possibly make an accomplishment on their own; they MUST attribute it to Jesus or God. It's rather sad, really. It shows the full extent of religion's brainwashing effects.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
awesome rand really great answer and totally makes sense, as well as absolves God from injustice and at the same time exalts still another depth of God's glory and sovereignty. Piper has been gifted with incredible words of knowledge and wisdom.
Well, for what it's worth, infants who die have much less time to accumulate sin than those who live to great age. Since Hell is a place where unsaved go to pay for their sins, these little ones will have arguably far less to "pay for" than reprobates who die when they are old.
I disagree, the discussion prompts serious thinking about a very important truth and that is the doctrine of original sin. You may think it divisive, as such you demonstrate an inability to recognise this doctrines centrality to the very heart of the gospel message, praise God for those that are more concerned with truth than a false unity or peoples comfort, the very protestant faith you cling to is the result of men who stood against the overwhelming consensus of a false gospel.
@jerryluo8lol I'm not sure I follow your comments regarding the old covenant and my remarks concerning the doctrine of original sin and the gospel, by the way which covenant are you referring to? The Abrahamic, the Noahic or the Sinai covenant? If you are asserting that I have some type of legalistic understanding I can assure sir that your understanding of the gospel is likely to be far more centred on mans works than my own.
It amazing to me how an emotionally charged issue like this can turn everyone’s theology on their heads, you suddenly have Arminians talking like Calvinists and vice versa. God has exactly the same freedom to choose or not choose a baby for election just like he has for a ninety year old for nothing other than his own good pleasure; it would seem that many of you have a very high view of man and unfortunately a very low view of God. Soli Deo Gloria
@AReformedChristian "Piper's answer makes no sense considering he's a calvinist. He believes that before any person has ever done anything good or bad, God has allready selected who will be saved, that it has nothing to do with anything the person does,"
Isn't it amazing how people say when someone believes the Bible they believe in nonsense and they get mad because works can't get one to Heaven?When the Bible makes it clear that only faith in Christ's work is the only works that count?
@CBALLEN You took my quote out of context and didn't finish what I said. How dishonest of you!
The rest of what I said was, "that it has nothing to do with anything the person does, or what knowledge they have but only whether God has pre-selected them. This surely means if God didn't select someone & they die in infancy they're lost, if not it means that only elect babies die & all reprobate ones grow up to become adults. Calvinism is nonsense!"
Piper's answer makes no sense considering he's a calvinist. He believes that before any person has ever done anything good or bad, God has allready selected who will be saved, that it has nothing to do with anything the person does, or what knowledge they have but only whether God has pre-selected them. This surely means if God didn't select someone & they die in infancy they're lost, if not it means that only elect babies die & all reprobate ones grow up to become adults. Calvinism is nonsense!
Easy Question ... Since GOD knows the End from the Beginning, He knows who would have grown up to Love Him and who would have grown up to reject Him, and so they are Judge on what they would have done if they had lived.
Because our Christ has come. He understands why we are the way we are, he has felt everything we have felt. Hurt, anger, disappointment. He is here to offer us grace, the law has changed, he is here to offer his mercy and friendship, not death and destruction
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--Unborn babies must be born again Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--" Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
I dont think Piper has a terrific case here, and not just because it would likely mean that there were more unborn in Heaven than born. Arguments can really go both ways here; even the Didache tried to say something about abortion while canonized scripture is silent. If the unborn are to all have souls, then 1 Peter 4:6 suggests the Gospel could be preached to those dead. And on the other hand, didnt Jesus say in the gospel of John that you must be born again? Nothing's clear cut on this.
@EarnestLamb I had a 3 week old son die & the verse that popped into my head before God ever saved me was when King David had sinned with Bathsheba and Samuel told David that his baby would die.King David said that He could not come back to him but he could go where his baby is going.I don't think anyone is going 2B stuck in a babies body at the Resurrection,I believe God has a way of causing a baby to know of Him and causing the baby to be reborn even at whatever stage it reaches at it's death.
@CBALLEN "I know that the Creator of the world will do whatever is right"
A ridiculous comment coming from an apostate who claims God creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell & that He gives them FAKE calls to repent, withholds the ability to obey it, & then destroys them when they refuse! There's no difference between that & destroying helpless children. Calvinism is the most blasphemous & unChristian doctrine ever devised by Satan. A doctrine of demons.
Out of all the Christian cults Open Theism is probably the most disgusting of all.It tries to strip God of His attributes and power,and turns him into some creature barley smarter than the men he creates,he even needs men to help and teach him things that he doesn't know.He was created by men who hated God's sovereign power,they created him to make him more manageable and certainly less wrathful.The Open.T.god is kinda like Barney the dinosaur, maybe he is?
@CBALLEN How is such babbling anything more than an evasive diversion? The fact remains that your theology accuses God of creating helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell & that He gives them FAKE calls to repent, withholds the ability to obey it, & then destroys them when they refuse - there's no difference between that & destroying helpless children. Calvinism is the most blasphemous & unChristian doctrine ever devised by Satan - a doctrine of demons. Case closed.
@CBALLEN None are true. He died for all the sins of all men, but only those who recieve Christ by faith will be saved....."but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."John3:18
@shteve77 I've told you before and I'll say it again,only those appointed to eternal life will believe,Jesus died for the CHURCH alone,He died for the sheep and sheep have always been sheep even before they were converted,it's the gospel that converts them.
@CBALLEN Eze34 declares "this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. ....I will judge between one sheep and another."
Christ died for the KOSMOS (world). Not some men.
@shteve77 When the Bible says that Jesus died for all men it's taken to mean all men as in all kinds ,as Jew and Gentile since only Jews were saved in the O.T.& any Gentiles saved became Jews.Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”This is why ALL MEN had to be stressed because the Jews could barely believe that God loved Gentiles too.Noticed GOD GRANTED it.
@CBALLEN It doesn't say Christ died for some of all type of people. It says He died for the KOSMOS (world). It says in Hebrews 2:9 that Christ "tasted death for everyone" and in 2Pet2:1 we read of false prophets "even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. "
@shteve77 I promise you,not one person who Jesus died for will be in Hell and all in Hell,Jesus never died for.God doesn't send His children to Hell.2Peter 3:9 is a perfect example of taking words out of context.Why would God who knew both the finite number of goats and sheep be patiently waiting on Goats to come to Christ that He knew before time never would?Do you think God is insane?
@CBALLEN The God of Calvinism is definitely insase. He declares "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." He tells us it is His preference, that He would rather the wicked repent and live yet He creates most of mankind only for the purpose of burning them in Hell.
@shteve77 Christ died for the church which includes both Gentiles as well as the Jews ,as it had always had been in the O.T..The word world means gentiles only in some verses,the universe in others,believers in some and the lost in others,CONTEXT,CONTEXT,CONTEXT.So,we know that all that Jesus died for will be in Heaven,because Jesus was not praying for the world but those that God had given Him out of the world.
@CBALLEN Kosmos (world) can mean (1) all mankind, (2) the sinful "world system" or (3) the earth. It never means "the elect" Christ tased death for "everyone"
@CBALLEN Nice try! This is not a statement of truth or fact. The Bible records the conversation the Pharisees had with one another. They said "The whole world has gone after Him". These wicked men were exaggerating and the Bible records what they said. Nothing more. The Pharisees also said Jesus was a drunkard and demon possesed. Does this mean it is true? I repeat again that world only ever means (1) all people (2) the wicked world system (3) The Earth. It never means just the elect.
@shteve77 As far as ,all men, & whole world are concerned,they mean what they mean according to context,so in most all verses they are speaking of all kinds of men or all men as in Gentile and Jews,since only Jews were saved in the O.T,Gentiles were unclean dogs to Jews then.Jesus died and suffered God's wrath for all the sins of some men,if He had done this for all men head for head God's wrath against all sin would be satisfied,but it's not,God has plenty of wrath to pour out on the wicked.
@CBALLEN Actually John12:47 shows clearly that the "world" that Jesus says He came to save includes those who will be condemned for rejecting Him.
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me...."
@shteve77 Just like the Ray Comfort stuff goes,if one has committed a crime and someone they don't know pays the fine,the law is satisfied,there's no more debt owed for them to pay ,now you must leave jail.Jesus died for specific people and took all the wrath for their specific sins and these people will have their hearts changed before death.They belonged to The Father and He gave them to Jesus to keep forever since He paid for them.Just read all of John 17,it's clear as spring water.
@CBALLEN Jesus tased death for "everyone" Heb2:9 Those that will be condemned will be condemned for rejecting Christ.
John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son"
@shteve77 Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, Hebrews 2:10 for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, Hebrews 2:11 for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, Hebrews 2:12 for every one of the "children" God has given him. Gill
@shteve77 One thing Arminians don't get is when the Disciples are speaking to believers they say things they don't say to mixed crowds,that's why they're not running around telling everyone Jesus loves them all and wants to save them all.Eph 1: 4-11 Paul is telling the Ephesian believers that God loved them and chose them before the foundation of the world for salvation,just as they all do when speaking to believers,non-believers are told Jesus died for sinners and all who believe will be saved.
@CBALLEN Tell me what does the statement "God is love" actually mean to a Calvinist. How can God be love if He hates most of mankind? The Bible doesn't say God is loving towards some it says He IS love. Further to that God tells us to love our enemies. In Calvinism He holds us to a higher standard than He expects of Himself.
@shteve77 God loves His children differently than He loves His creation,just like I love my children differently than other peoples children.God still sends rain,and comfort for His creation,gives them jobs and air to breath,doesn't kill them after their first sin ect.
@CBALLEN Oh right, the "god loves different people differently" arguement. Yes, isn't it so loving to give someone a few years of life in a fallen, sinfull world & then send them to hell to be tortured for all eternity. It shows so much that God loves them.
Imagine a man watching 3 drowning children. He pulls one to safety and then watches the other 2 drown even though He could save them and then He tries to convince everyone He really did love those other children, just in a different way!
@shteve77 Jn 17: 6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
@CBALLEN You didn't comment on John12:47. Who is the World in John 12:47 that Christ says He came to save? And why in Eze33 does God say that it is His preference for the wicked to live when you say He always intended and created then so they would perish?
@shteve77 Verses like 2 Peter 3:9 is also speaking to the beloved or believers about God's elect.Peter is telling them that Jesus will return when all the believers have been born and converted,that's why He's being patient.It makes no sense to say that God is patiently waiting for the finite number of goats that He knew before time wouldn't be saved,God is not senile,He knew both the sheep and the goats before creation.God knows everything and all things happen just as He has planned.
@CBALLEN 1 Tim 2:4 makes it very clear "God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men" It doesn't say "some of all types of men", it says "all men"
@shteve77Romans 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Those who go to Hell are examples to God's elect of how bad sin is and how awful Hell is that He saved them from.
@CBALLEN What you are really saying is that God imposed Irresistible Evil on people by omnipotent, sovereign decree, causing them to sin so that we could see how much God hates the sin that He caused! This is nonsense. Scripture declares God is light and that there is no darkness in Him. The God of Calvinism is full of darkness, He is the source and cause of all sin.
@shteve77 This is how God set up the Exodus so He would free His people and destroy Pharaoh Psalms 105:24-25 And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes.whose hearts he turned to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.
Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
@shteve77 You can get all emotional if you like,but we must deal with scripture not your emotions,God is not a man like you think He is.Men love sin and God directs that sin.He can stop any and all sin whenever He likes,but He has a purpose for it.You seem to be angry with God because He doesn''t do what you want Him to do,so you just make up a god you like better.
@CBALLEN If God directs all sin then God is responsible for all sin. In fact He is full of darkness and the source of all evil which perfectly describes Satan not God.
@shteve77Romans 9 :15 “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16 It does not, therefore, (depend on human desire or effort), but on God’s mercy.So man's "choice" plays no part in it,the thing is,no natural man desires Christ,so if one does desire Christ it's because God has regenerated him and has granted him belief.
@shteve77 The Jews also understood the world to mean the world of Gentiles.Again,the Jews were taken by surprise that the God of Israel would have anything to do with the Gentiles,Peter still didn't like the idea and Paul confronted him on it.The Gentiles like wise had to be made to understand that Jesus was also the Savior of the Jews even though most rejected Him.Many Judahizers tried to stir up trouble between G&Js by claiming the Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law ect.
@shteve77 "The God of Calvinism is definitely insase. He declares "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."
And the only ones who will turn are God's sheep,the rest will never turn,but that doesn't mean that God is taking pleasure in their death,even though He will cast them into Hell.He could have made the world sinless,but He didn't,sin exists because it is part of His plan.He stopped many people from sinning all through the Bible.
@CBALLEN You are trusting in human wisdom and leaning on your own understanding instead of trusting God's word.You claim God is insane because He doesn't do things the way man thinks He should,you're worshiping a political correct god that doesn't exist.Man cannot make himself born again only God can do that,and that's accomplished by the Holy Spirit,Grace through faith and both are granted to His sheep as gifts,dead men don't choose anything good,that's why we must first B regenerated 2 belief.
@CBALLEN It doesn't just say God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but God also states He would rather that they live, that He would prefer they live, yet you believe He withholds from them the ability to obey that He could give them if He choses to and infact He created these people (that He tells us He would prefer they live) only for the purpose to burn them in hell for all eternity. Why does God tell us It is His preference they live when He created them to perish?
@shteve77 The book of Ezekiel as a whole speak of God's sovereignty in salvation. Go to the chapters just before... Chapter 16 destruction was upon us, and the Lord came by and said, "Live!" Then to go to 33 where the passage is repeated ,then to 34 where the Lord says that He will seek out His sheep. Then to 36 and 37 where God says I will give them a new heart not for their sakes...and 37 with the dry bones.
@shteve77 A sinner that has never been converted will naturally by their own sin nature oppose anything that removes them from their life of selfism. The doctrine of election/predestination makes God really real and removes the person from the position of trying to be their own god. It cuts to the very heart and soul of a person's pride. C.H.S.
@CBALLEN You didn't answer Ezek 33 you just quote the words of men. God clearly says in Eze33 that what He would rather, what His preference is, is that the wicked repent and live yet what the God of Calvinism clearly wants is that most men perish in hell because that's the only purpose He apparently created them for.
I have a question;When an infant dies & goes 2 heaven how old is that Infant's soul?Because I think that it would suck 2 be an Infant for all eternity but that's just My opinion what's Your's?
aaronspencer30 3 days ago
@aaronspencer30 I think a better question is: when does an infant attain this "soul"? When it's just a zygote? When it's less than a hundred cells?
Perhaps an even better question is: what happens when a zygote splits in two and becomes twins? Do those twins share the same soul? If so, how can they have such differing personalities when they grow up?
Scary stuff; this whole "soul" business...
SeedsOfHatred 3 days ago
how about the imputed sin? how about the fact that the wages of sin is death..........baby dies because of its imputed sin from Adam.
CallmeMell 4 days ago
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@SeedsOfHatred
I need not argue with you, for although you claim to be wise you've truly become foolish in your thinking; for God has given you over to a debased mind because you have suppressed the truth of God. Because you have no Faith you are simply a wave blown and tossed in the ocean. And that kind of person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.
Disciple1818 4 days ago
God is sovereign over His Creation, and frankly, He can do whatever He pleases with it; is this not to say that He is likewise sovereign over those He chooses to save? Honestly, the best option is to say "I don't know." It's all in God's hands, and that's good enough for me!
wreckonciled2g 5 days ago
Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Arminian 8:7 the sinful mind is not hostile to God. It does submit to God's law, and it can it do so.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN You still didn't tell me who the World is in Jn12:47 or why In Ez33 God tells us that His preference for people (who He has allready decreed to perish in Hell), is for them to repent & live?
shteve77 6 days ago
@shteve77 You still don't understand,God knew both finite groups before creation,God is not trying and failing to save the goats,He is letting them go their own way and is not interested in changing their hearts,they will be examples that He will pour His wrath out on and send to Hell in front of those that He chose to set His love on before time.He has plenty of wrath saved up for these,from the time of the flood until the last day,He created them for the day of evil.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN That's not what 2Pet2:1 says.
shteve77 5 days ago
@CBALLEN Does the "world" in John12:47 that JEsus says He came to save include those who reject Him?
shteve77 5 days ago
@shteve77 Everyone who has ever lived has denied Jesus at sometime in their lives,every Christian at sometime was of THE WORLD,even the elect don't normally believe the first time they hear the gospel,remember,some plant and others water,but it's GOD who gives the increase,so God leaves His elect in the world until He's ready to convert them..
CBALLEN 5 days ago
@CBALLEN ...And all who were chosen for eternal life believed.
CBALLEN 5 days ago
@CBALLEN You you acknowledge that before a person believes the gospel they are spiritually dead?
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77Rms 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
The goats were prepared in advance for destruction,while the sheep were prepared for glory.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his
steps.Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN All men's steps are determined by God,good,bad and in between,He rules us all and there is purpose in all evil that happens
Prov.21:1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
God holds power over good and bad kings and rulers,He used the Assyrians to discipline Israel and other nations and then destroyed them for taking credit of all their conquering and not giving God the glory,so God then destroyed them for their haughtiness.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN Why does God declare to us that it's His preference that people who perish should live? Why do you say it's God's preference that they perish?
shteve77 5 days ago
@shteve77 "Imagine a man watching 3 drowning children."
Men are already dead like Lazarus dead spiritually,God must raise them to life to save them.
CBALLEN 5 days ago
@CBALLEN Sorry, but the only reason that men are spiritually dead is because the Calvinism God created them that way. He created Adam, imposed Irresistible evil on him.
You are ignoring the question. You tried to tell me that God loves everyone differently. How is it loving to create someone only for the purpose of sending them to hell. If God could save all but only saves some how can you argue He loves the ones He doesn't save?
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 So you're saying that God is not all powerful and He could not have made a garden without a tree He told them not to eat from?I guess He couldn't have found another place to put the Devil either,huh?lol In Heaven man won't be ABLE to sin,is that going to make us all robots since we won't be able to sin?Just admit it,you like your god better than the one of the Bible,you can control him,but not the real one,right?
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN You just ramble on but you can't answer a simple question from scripture. Eze33, Why does God tell people who perished in there sins (and who you say God created for the purpose that they would perish) that He (God) would prefer they repent and live?
shteve77 4 days ago
@CBALLEN You are mixed up. You believe we are born again and have new life before we have believed. John 20:31 says you are wrong.
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 John 20:31 doesn't say anything about having faith before regeneration.
Also look at 1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him." Notice how "believes" is present tense and "been born" is past tense.
TheCASSMAN777 3 days ago
@TheCASSMAN777 If you read the verse it clearly says that we have new life as a result of believing. Before a person believes they are spiritually dead.
"these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and THAT BY BELIEVING you may have life in his name. "
shteve77 2 days ago
@shteve77 People can't believe until it's granted to them ,remember Jesus says NO MAN will come to Him so he may have life,it's impossible for any lost man to believe(not physically,but Spiritually),they can't obey God's commands Romans 8:7,. God must open their hearts,eyes and ears.The Gospel is for His sheep only ,not the goats and all the sheep in the world will eventually come B4 their death.Is Satan a lion on a leash?Can Satan repent on His own?
CBALLEN 2 days ago
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@CBALLEN Why aren't you able to answer. If Calvinism were true then you wouldn't have such trouble answering verses like the one I asked about in Eze33. Why does God say that it is His preference, that He would rather the wicked repent and live when you say He always intended for them to perish, infact that He created them only for the purpose that that perish?
shteve77 2 days ago
@shteve77 Something else to consider is,we are saved by Grace Regenerated and granted faith,to be justified by God then we will be saved,through sanctification we're then being saved unto glorified bodies by Jesus .So if some one says just believe and you will be saved the're normally speaking of God regenerating people unto glorification.
CBALLEN 2 days ago
@CBALLEN So when we tell someone if they believe they will be saved,it's true.Of course later when they understand we can tell them how their belief happened.
CBALLEN 2 days ago
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@CBALLEN You keep quoting your Calvinist mantra but you refuse to answer simple questions from scripture. If the Bible contradicts Calvinism then it is wrong. The scriptures I keep asking about show it is wrong. First, Jn20:31 shows that until we believe we are dead. There's no such thing as a born again, regenerated person who is dead in their sins. Second, why does God say that it's His preference that the wicked repent and live when you say He always intended for them to perish?
shteve77 1 day ago
@shteve77 Can you name any time God stopped men from sinning in scriptures?I can.Do you really think God couldn't have made this world sinless if that was His plan?Could He have chosen to save everyone?You bet He could.Then why didn't He?That's the 64,000 question isn't it.
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@shteve The Bible tells us that Adam was not made a sinner,that Eve was deceived but Adam sinned willfully and Adam was the Federal Head of the whole human race who brought sin and death to us all,is that fair?You need to learn whatever God says is right,is right and if He makes us like He makes us who are you O man to talk back to God,is He not our maker?Can He not do with us as He chooses?Can He not save who He wants and harden who He wants?Your problem is not with me,your problem is with GOD.
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@shteve77 Just admit that you hate God and be done with it,because you don't like one thing He does,you believe He misuses His power,you believe He doesn't have the right to do this and that,you think He's mean because He has the power to save everyone but He doesn't ect.All I can tell you is He is God and He has His own reasons for everything He does,He knows more than any of us and anyone who complains about Him and strives with Him is an idiot.Whoa to the man who strives with His maker.
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN Actually you should just admit that you proclaim a God who isn't just or love. Be honest and tell people that God hates most people. Stop pretending that God loves everyone by making up some rubbish about "God loves every everyone He just loves some people differently". The fact that you try to justify that the Calvinist God does "in some way" love everyone one shows you know God does really love all men but because the Calvinist God clearly doesn't, you play games with words.
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve God tells us that the wages of sin is death,that's His rule.Have you ever sinned?Then if He doesn't kill us after our first sin is this not grace to us?Is that not love to allow us to eat,,work,have kids,things and continue to sin and live to tell about it?Then He says if you believe on my Son who died I will save you from the second death,but man will not come to Christ so that he may have life,isn't this what scripture says?So if you say you're saved,How did you come by your free will?
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN Is it love to create someone to eat, drink, irresistibly cause them to sin and then burn them in hell for commiting the sin that you made them commit? No!
shteve77 4 days ago
@CBALLEN Back to Eze33. This seems to be a difficult question for a Calvinist. Why does God tell people who perished in their sins (and who you say God created for the purpose that they would perish) that He (God) would prefer they repent and live?
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 Tell me if you can,why did the Egyptians turn against the Hebrews and cause them to throw their male babies in the Nile? I've already told you the answer to your question,now answer mine if you'll be so kind.
CBALLEN 3 days ago
@CBALLEN Firstly you have not answered Eze33, Why does God say that it is His preference, that He would rather the wicked repent and live when you say He always intended for them to perish, infact that He created them only for the purpose that that perish?
Actually a better question is why did God's own people (those people in Jer7:31) murder their own children?
shteve77 2 days ago
@shteve77 As with the whole Bible,it's words are only for those with ears to hear and eyes to see,the rest will be made examples of.
CBALLEN 3 days ago
@CBALLEN Tell me, if a judge holds a gun at your head and forces you to rob a bank and then a few days later you find yourself in court and the same judge sentences you to jail for doing what he made you do, would you say he is "just"? That he is "love"?
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 You remind me of the Arminian Roger Olsen,who wrote in his book that a student asked him ,"If it could be proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Calvinist God was God would you worship Him'?He responded,No,I would not.So until God changes Roger's or your heart you can't worship Him and you're probably still in your sins,I don't know that for a fact but I can't see one being saved while hating the one he's supposed to love.
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN Right, so now your arguing that unless you belive in Calvinism you can't be saved?
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 This is no game,this is serious business.Jesus came and died to save His people and God the Son sweated drops of blood because He knew what God the Father pouring out His wrath on Him meant.Jesus didn't fear the beatings or the cross,He knew how terrible the wrath for His peoples sin was.Guess what,Jesus didn't take every ones wrath though,cause God has plenty left for the goats.That's why Jesus wasn't the propitiation for every man,God wouldn't have any more wrath if He did.Think long
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."1Jn2:2
Isa53. "We all like sheep have gone astray" (Is it only the elect who have strayed, no all men..."and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of US ALL"
Heb2:9 "Christ tasted death for EVERYONE"
Rom5;18"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to ALL MEN, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN,"
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 Jews and Gentiles,He was speaking to Jewish believers.
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN John wrote this letter about 85 to 90AD. There were many, many gentiles in the church by then. Secondly, I didn't just quote one verse but 4 and there any many others. Are you going to answer the other questions I asked or do you just intend to write your own opinions and ignore others questions? Why does God tell people who perished in there sins (and who you say God created for the purpose that they would perish) that He (God) would prefer they repent and live?
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 Tell me,does it bother you that God didn't try to save Gentiles in the O.T.?I mean He didn't send them one Gentile prophet,He probably sent 99% of all the people He ever made to Hell and only saved from His chosen people and not even all of them.
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@CBALLEN No one is with out excuse. The conscience that God has given all men bears witness to Him.
Rom2
4 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
shteve77 4 days ago
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"Why does God declare to us that it's His preference that people who perish should live? Why do you say it's God's preference that they perish?"
Many of these that He's speaking of/to do turn and believe,but God shows us through progressive revelation that no matter what God says or does,natural men can do nothing but evil,they're spiritually dead and must be brought to life by His Spirit before they can ever repent and believe.The whole O.T. is nothing but one big example of man's depravity.
CBALLEN 5 days ago
@CBALLEN Sorry but you are still not answering. We know from history that most of the people that Ezekiel told these words to perished. What I want to know is why would God tell perishing people that it is His preference they live, that He wants them to repent and live if God has created them only for the purpose taht they will perish in Hell?
shteve77 4 days ago
What you and I have been taught all our lives by MEN is that we must muster up faith in Christ so we can trade this faith to God for His salvation,but the Bible says that natural unsaved men CANNOT DO THIS,no one seeks Him,all are wicked and no good.This is why AS Jesus told Nicodemus"You must be born again",it's the Spirit who brings men to life spiritually so the can and will believe.So all who believe that Jesus died for them have already been regenerated(born from above) and Granted belief.
CBALLEN 5 days ago
@CBALLEN No, all who believe are born again. Scripture declares we only have life when we believe. There is no such thing as a regererated, born again person who is still spiritually dead.
shteve77 4 days ago
@shteve77 This is why salvation is 100% the world of God and 0%us.Jesus Christ is the bridge that goes all the way from God to men or from man to God.Being a Christian is NOT the greatest decision a man can ever make,it's the greatest decision ever made for someone,before the foundation of the world.
CBALLEN 5 days ago
@CBALLEN should be 100% the WORK of God.
CBALLEN 5 days ago
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@shteve77 "You still didn't tell me who the World is in Jn12:47 or why In Ez33 God tells us that His preference for people (who He has allready decreed to perish in Hell), is for them to repent & live?"
God had many elect in this group who did turn,but not all.He doesn't take pleasure in killing the wicked but He will cast them into Hell.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
1Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Armin 2:14 The man without the Spirit does accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are not foolishness to him, and he can understand them, because they are notspiritually discerned.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Arminian 9:16 It does not depend on God's mercy but on man's desire and effort.
John 1:13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Arminian 1:13 children born not of natural descent, but of human decision and a husband's will, with a little help from God.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
Arminianism 10:26 you are not my sheep because you do not believe.
Act 13:48... and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.
Arminianisn 13:48 ...and all who became believers were chosen for eternal life.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Armin 1::4 For we chose Him before the creation of the world....
CBALLEN 6 days ago
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A sinner that has never been converted will naturally by their own sin nature oppose anything that removes them from their life of selfism. The doctrine of election/predestination makes God really real and removes the person from the position of trying to be their own god. It cuts to the very heart and soul of a person's pride.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
The bottom line is,not one person who Jesus died for will be in Hell,He accomplished the salvation of all His sheep on the cross and took all the wrath of God for all their sins.God still has plenty of wrath left for the wicked,so Jesus was NOT a propitiation for them.There were people in Hell while Jesus walked the Earth,did His sacrifice do them any good?
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN 2Peter2:1 says otherwise "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."
The people in Hell while Jesus walked the Earth did not benefit because unlike the people of old like Abraham etc, those people did not have faith in God.
shteve77 6 days ago
Romans 9 tells us that God's will is irresistible 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
The question is then how can God hold us accountable since no one can resist His plan,well who are you O MAN to say to God you don't like how He';s made you,He is the potter and can do what He wants to do with His clay.He saves who He chooses.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
John 17:9: ‘I (Jesus) pray not for the world.I pray for those you have given me,for they are thine’ Does Jesus refuse to pray for all men without exception?
CBALLEN 1 week ago
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@CBALLEN God's foreknowledge of the future is not something that He foresees or looks through time to LEARN,God's foreknowledge of the future is the knowledge of How He will have the future HAPPEN.His foreknowledge of people is the same thing,it's people that He has foreloved before creation and it is these who He set His love upon and it is these who Jesus came to die for and save.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN When He was crucified Jesus prayed "“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Jesus also tells us to pray for our enemies. It seems that according to you atleast, Jesus holds us to a higher standard than you think he held Himself.
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 Jesus asked the Father to forgive them for His crucifixion because it was the act that brought salvation to the world .Thousands were saved shortly after the crucifixion when Peter preached of what they had done,Peter told them that they had ignorantly killed Israel's Messiah,those who believed were the elect.Judas, Caiaphas , Herod,and Pilot didn't fare so well.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN So in other words, Jesus did in fact pray for people who were not His own.
shteve77 6 days ago
@shteve77 Why do you think He was praying for anyone other than the elect who were killing Him,since in the garden He said He was NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD but for those who belonged to God who God had given Him out of the world?
CBALLEN 4 days ago
@shteve77 Steve why did the Egyptians begin to treat the Hebrews badly and cause them to throw their male babies in the Nile?
CBALLEN 4 days ago
John 1:29: ‘Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.’ Did Christ by His death take away the sin of all men without exception? If He did, all men without exception shall be saved.
John 6:33: ‘For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.’ Does Jesus give life (not, ineffectually offer life, but, efficaciously give life) to all men without exception? If He does, all men without exception have eternal life.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN Not all men have faith. We recieve salvation by faith. Again those that reject Christ will be condemned.
Only those who believe have life. It is when a person believes they have life.
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."Jn20:31
shteve77 1 week ago
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@shteve77 "We recieve salvation by faith. Again those that reject Christ will be condemned."
We are saved by GRACE through faith and both faith and grace are given to us as gifts,we cannot conjure up belief on our own,it comes from God and every person God draws to Christ is saved,all appointed to eternal life believe.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@shteve77 Phil.1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
When we see things from man's perspective,it is true,he must believe,but then we see why we believe from God's perspective.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN The context of Phil1, is suffering. This verse is simply saying that God has not only provided us with the opportunity to trust Him but also to suffer for Him. The word "granted" (Greek: echaristhe) means "grace" or "favour." Both the opportunity to suffer for Him and to believe on Him are favours with which God has graced us. No one would argue from this verse that suffering is an immediate & irresistible work of grace but, that is what Calvinists argue it teaches about faith.
shteve77 6 days ago
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@shteve77 "The word "granted" (Greek: echaristhe) means "grace" or "favour." Both the opportunity to suffer for Him and to believe on Him are favours with which God has graced us."
Add this to John 6:44 No one is able to believe unless drawn,and all drawn are saved.These were granted belief,since they could not believe as natural men.We are saved by GRACE through faith,it's all God's gift to His sheep and it is given through the the gospel,only the sheep have ears to hear and eyes to see.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
So, when is a child accountable? 3? 7? 12? and they go to hell if they are accountable? What a disgusting religion.
CommitToFocus 1 week ago
KAY, ITS BEEN LIKE A MONTH OR TWO SINCE I LAST WATCHED JOHN PIPER`S VIDEOS AND YOU ALL ARE STILL HERE ARGUING- LOOK AT YOURSELFS- FOOLS
Disciple1818 2 weeks ago
@Disciple1818 Arguing is an exercise in reason, and these are important issues. There is nothing foolish about arguing, although one can argue foolishly.
IcedBlueTea 1 week ago
@IcedBlueTea I agree, absolutely- but there are 2 guys in here who have been arguing for the past month, just quarrelling..
Disciple1818 1 week ago
@Disciple1818 "Persistence: Because with time, even water can wear stone."
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
@SeedsOfHatred Yeah, but its pretty stupid when its not constructive and corrective- when it just becomes a "quarell" founded on pride (and pride in knowledge).
Disciple1818 1 week ago
@Disciple1818 When a quarell consists primarily of ad hominem and no real progress is being made, yes. But even two men beating the shit out of each other in a parking lot may be making significant changes in the other's way of thinking for reasons that only they can know.
When one has superior knowledge, and when another has lesser knowledge, sometimes a drawn-out quarell (to outside eyes) may have dramatic effects on either party; be it now or sometime down the road.
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
@SeedsOfHatred I suppose you are correct, yes, but I would like to insert that knowledge (in the tense of teaching and correcting) means nothing without love.
Disciple1818 1 week ago
@Disciple1818 That's not necessarily true. The stove in my childhood home did not "love" me, nor I it, but after burning myself, I was taught not to touch it.
This is, of course, not limited to stoves. People can teach/be taught without love on the part of either party.
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
@SeedsOfHatred Yes, what you say is true, but what I mean is that there is no benefit in being the "correct" one or "more knowledgeable" one without love because even if you win the argument and are proven right you will be prideful in yourself. If we argue, we need to have the mindset that we are trying to bring them the truth -the mindset of Christ. Unless we are arguing this way (ie: like Paul) it just leads to pridefulness and foolishness- and arguing as if the Bible was simply philosophy.
Disciple1818 1 week ago
@Disciple1818 What's wrong with being proud of one's self? When you succeed in something, be it an argument or an activity or a goal, are you not proud of your achievement?
SeedsOfHatred 1 week ago
@SeedsOfHatred No, I try not to be prideul; I desire to boast in the Lord- I must become less and He, Jesus, must become greater. I find joy not in my own self but in God and His Truth.
Disciple1818 6 days ago
@Disciple1818 Being prideful does not mean boasting. One could boast, yes, and we would think them an asshole, but we can be prideful without being boastful.
With all due respect, it is in the nature of the religious mindset to be subservient at all times. They feel they cannot possibly make an accomplishment on their own; they MUST attribute it to Jesus or God. It's rather sad, really. It shows the full extent of religion's brainwashing effects.
SeedsOfHatred 5 days ago
@SeedsOfHatred Umm no
Disciple1818 5 days ago
@Disciple1818 Ahh, but do the brainwashed realize that they've been brainwashed?
As a former Christian myself, I can say from experience that no, they don't.
Which is also rather sad.
SeedsOfHatred 4 days ago
@SeedsOfHatred
Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Disciple1818 4 days ago
@Disciple1818 *Sigh* Whatever you say, my friend.
SeedsOfHatred 4 days ago
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Disciple1818 4 days ago
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A perfect being wouldn't have a deficiency of needing to be worshiped.
JACKSCHEESYSMILE 2 weeks ago
awesome rand really great answer and totally makes sense, as well as absolves God from injustice and at the same time exalts still another depth of God's glory and sovereignty. Piper has been gifted with incredible words of knowledge and wisdom.
orionifo 3 weeks ago
Well, for what it's worth, infants who die have much less time to accumulate sin than those who live to great age. Since Hell is a place where unsaved go to pay for their sins, these little ones will have arguably far less to "pay for" than reprobates who die when they are old.
rredhawk 4 weeks ago
Dear John Piper,
Stop creating topics in which doesn't further His Kingdom, but splits the church apart.
jerryluo8lol 4 weeks ago
I disagree, the discussion prompts serious thinking about a very important truth and that is the doctrine of original sin. You may think it divisive, as such you demonstrate an inability to recognise this doctrines centrality to the very heart of the gospel message, praise God for those that are more concerned with truth than a false unity or peoples comfort, the very protestant faith you cling to is the result of men who stood against the overwhelming consensus of a false gospel.
AReformedChristian 3 weeks ago
@AReformedChristian
well in that case, have fun living in the old covenant
jerryluo8lol 3 weeks ago
@jerryluo8lol I'm not sure I follow your comments regarding the old covenant and my remarks concerning the doctrine of original sin and the gospel, by the way which covenant are you referring to? The Abrahamic, the Noahic or the Sinai covenant? If you are asserting that I have some type of legalistic understanding I can assure sir that your understanding of the gospel is likely to be far more centred on mans works than my own.
All by grace and all for His glory. God Bless.
AReformedChristian 3 weeks ago
@jerryluo8lol he's not creating the topics, he's answering peoples' questions -_-
JimmyGBA 3 weeks ago
Man, that's a tough subject. I DO NOT have an exact opinion about it. I'll just trust God's judgement.
jgallete 4 weeks ago 2
It amazing to me how an emotionally charged issue like this can turn everyone’s theology on their heads, you suddenly have Arminians talking like Calvinists and vice versa. God has exactly the same freedom to choose or not choose a baby for election just like he has for a ninety year old for nothing other than his own good pleasure; it would seem that many of you have a very high view of man and unfortunately a very low view of God. Soli Deo Gloria
AReformedChristian 1 month ago
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@AReformedChristian "Piper's answer makes no sense considering he's a calvinist. He believes that before any person has ever done anything good or bad, God has allready selected who will be saved, that it has nothing to do with anything the person does,"
Isn't it amazing how people say when someone believes the Bible they believe in nonsense and they get mad because works can't get one to Heaven?When the Bible makes it clear that only faith in Christ's work is the only works that count?
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
@CBALLEN You took my quote out of context and didn't finish what I said. How dishonest of you!
The rest of what I said was, "that it has nothing to do with anything the person does, or what knowledge they have but only whether God has pre-selected them. This surely means if God didn't select someone & they die in infancy they're lost, if not it means that only elect babies die & all reprobate ones grow up to become adults. Calvinism is nonsense!"
shteve77 1 week ago
Piper's answer makes no sense considering he's a calvinist. He believes that before any person has ever done anything good or bad, God has allready selected who will be saved, that it has nothing to do with anything the person does, or what knowledge they have but only whether God has pre-selected them. This surely means if God didn't select someone & they die in infancy they're lost, if not it means that only elect babies die & all reprobate ones grow up to become adults. Calvinism is nonsense!
shteve77 1 month ago
what about the original sin then?
strongyang 1 month ago
Easy Question ... Since GOD knows the End from the Beginning, He knows who would have grown up to Love Him and who would have grown up to reject Him, and so they are Judge on what they would have done if they had lived.
Cherubaby 1 month ago
@Cherubaby
no
Tsaunders1307 1 month ago
@Tsaunders1307 Why no? Why did GOD command the killing of all Amalekite babies?
Cherubaby 1 month ago
@Cherubaby
Because our Christ has come. He understands why we are the way we are, he has felt everything we have felt. Hurt, anger, disappointment. He is here to offer us grace, the law has changed, he is here to offer his mercy and friendship, not death and destruction
Tsaunders1307 1 month ago
@Tsaunders1307 OK. Thanks for your comments.
Cherubaby 1 month ago
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--Unborn babies must be born again Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--" Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
MrSlippin22 1 month ago
Infants go to heaven created by our loving god Flying Spaghetti Monster. FSM I love you so much! Thank you for the creating the Universe!
doshimax0777 1 month ago
I dont think Piper has a terrific case here, and not just because it would likely mean that there were more unborn in Heaven than born. Arguments can really go both ways here; even the Didache tried to say something about abortion while canonized scripture is silent. If the unborn are to all have souls, then 1 Peter 4:6 suggests the Gospel could be preached to those dead. And on the other hand, didnt Jesus say in the gospel of John that you must be born again? Nothing's clear cut on this.
EarnestLamb 1 month ago
@EarnestLamb I had a 3 week old son die & the verse that popped into my head before God ever saved me was when King David had sinned with Bathsheba and Samuel told David that his baby would die.King David said that He could not come back to him but he could go where his baby is going.I don't think anyone is going 2B stuck in a babies body at the Resurrection,I believe God has a way of causing a baby to know of Him and causing the baby to be reborn even at whatever stage it reaches at it's death.
CBALLEN 1 month ago
@CBALLEN I may be completely wrong on this but it's the only hope I have,I know that the Creator of the world will do whatever is right.
CBALLEN 1 month ago
@CBALLEN "I know that the Creator of the world will do whatever is right"
A ridiculous comment coming from an apostate who claims God creates helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell & that He gives them FAKE calls to repent, withholds the ability to obey it, & then destroys them when they refuse! There's no difference between that & destroying helpless children. Calvinism is the most blasphemous & unChristian doctrine ever devised by Satan. A doctrine of demons.
JackMWolfe 3 weeks ago
JackMWolf "A doctrine of demons"
Out of all the Christian cults Open Theism is probably the most disgusting of all.It tries to strip God of His attributes and power,and turns him into some creature barley smarter than the men he creates,he even needs men to help and teach him things that he doesn't know.He was created by men who hated God's sovereign power,they created him to make him more manageable and certainly less wrathful.The Open.T.god is kinda like Barney the dinosaur, maybe he is?
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
@CBALLEN How is such babbling anything more than an evasive diversion? The fact remains that your theology accuses God of creating helpless people for the sole purpose of casting them into hell & that He gives them FAKE calls to repent, withholds the ability to obey it, & then destroys them when they refuse - there's no difference between that & destroying helpless children. Calvinism is the most blasphemous & unChristian doctrine ever devised by Satan - a doctrine of demons. Case closed.
JackMWolfe 3 weeks ago
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@JackMWolfe 1 Either Jesus died for all the sins of all men =all are saved
2 Or He died for some of the sins for all men =none are saved
3 Or He died for all the sins of some men=some are saved
4 Or He died for some of the sins for some men.=none are saved
Which one is true?
CBALLEN 3 weeks ago
@CBALLEN None are true. He died for all the sins of all men, but only those who recieve Christ by faith will be saved....."but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."John3:18
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 I've told you before and I'll say it again,only those appointed to eternal life will believe,Jesus died for the CHURCH alone,He died for the sheep and sheep have always been sheep even before they were converted,it's the gospel that converts them.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN Eze34 declares "this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. ....I will judge between one sheep and another."
Christ died for the KOSMOS (world). Not some men.
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 When the Bible says that Jesus died for all men it's taken to mean all men as in all kinds ,as Jew and Gentile since only Jews were saved in the O.T.& any Gentiles saved became Jews.Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”This is why ALL MEN had to be stressed because the Jews could barely believe that God loved Gentiles too.Noticed GOD GRANTED it.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN It doesn't say Christ died for some of all type of people. It says He died for the KOSMOS (world). It says in Hebrews 2:9 that Christ "tasted death for everyone" and in 2Pet2:1 we read of false prophets "even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. "
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 I promise you,not one person who Jesus died for will be in Hell and all in Hell,Jesus never died for.God doesn't send His children to Hell.2Peter 3:9 is a perfect example of taking words out of context.Why would God who knew both the finite number of goats and sheep be patiently waiting on Goats to come to Christ that He knew before time never would?Do you think God is insane?
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN The God of Calvinism is definitely insase. He declares "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." He tells us it is His preference, that He would rather the wicked repent and live yet He creates most of mankind only for the purpose of burning them in Hell.
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 Christ died for the church which includes both Gentiles as well as the Jews ,as it had always had been in the O.T..The word world means gentiles only in some verses,the universe in others,believers in some and the lost in others,CONTEXT,CONTEXT,CONTEXT.So,we know that all that Jesus died for will be in Heaven,because Jesus was not praying for the world but those that God had given Him out of the world.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN Kosmos (world) can mean (1) all mankind, (2) the sinful "world system" or (3) the earth. It never means "the elect" Christ tased death for "everyone"
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN Nice try! This is not a statement of truth or fact. The Bible records the conversation the Pharisees had with one another. They said "The whole world has gone after Him". These wicked men were exaggerating and the Bible records what they said. Nothing more. The Pharisees also said Jesus was a drunkard and demon possesed. Does this mean it is true? I repeat again that world only ever means (1) all people (2) the wicked world system (3) The Earth. It never means just the elect.
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 As far as ,all men, & whole world are concerned,they mean what they mean according to context,so in most all verses they are speaking of all kinds of men or all men as in Gentile and Jews,since only Jews were saved in the O.T,Gentiles were unclean dogs to Jews then.Jesus died and suffered God's wrath for all the sins of some men,if He had done this for all men head for head God's wrath against all sin would be satisfied,but it's not,God has plenty of wrath to pour out on the wicked.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN Actually John12:47 shows clearly that the "world" that Jesus says He came to save includes those who will be condemned for rejecting Him.
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me...."
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 Just like the Ray Comfort stuff goes,if one has committed a crime and someone they don't know pays the fine,the law is satisfied,there's no more debt owed for them to pay ,now you must leave jail.Jesus died for specific people and took all the wrath for their specific sins and these people will have their hearts changed before death.They belonged to The Father and He gave them to Jesus to keep forever since He paid for them.Just read all of John 17,it's clear as spring water.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN Jesus tased death for "everyone" Heb2:9 Those that will be condemned will be condemned for rejecting Christ.
John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son"
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, Hebrews 2:10 for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, Hebrews 2:11 for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, Hebrews 2:12 for every one of the "children" God has given him. Gill
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN Sorry, but it doesn't say Christ "tasted death for everyone of His sons". It says everyone. Full Stop.
shteve77 6 days ago
@shteve77 One thing Arminians don't get is when the Disciples are speaking to believers they say things they don't say to mixed crowds,that's why they're not running around telling everyone Jesus loves them all and wants to save them all.Eph 1: 4-11 Paul is telling the Ephesian believers that God loved them and chose them before the foundation of the world for salvation,just as they all do when speaking to believers,non-believers are told Jesus died for sinners and all who believe will be saved.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN Tell me what does the statement "God is love" actually mean to a Calvinist. How can God be love if He hates most of mankind? The Bible doesn't say God is loving towards some it says He IS love. Further to that God tells us to love our enemies. In Calvinism He holds us to a higher standard than He expects of Himself.
shteve77 6 days ago
@shteve77 God loves His children differently than He loves His creation,just like I love my children differently than other peoples children.God still sends rain,and comfort for His creation,gives them jobs and air to breath,doesn't kill them after their first sin ect.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN Oh right, the "god loves different people differently" arguement. Yes, isn't it so loving to give someone a few years of life in a fallen, sinfull world & then send them to hell to be tortured for all eternity. It shows so much that God loves them.
Imagine a man watching 3 drowning children. He pulls one to safety and then watches the other 2 drown even though He could save them and then He tries to convince everyone He really did love those other children, just in a different way!
shteve77 5 days ago
@shteve77 Jn 17: 6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN You didn't comment on John12:47. Who is the World in John 12:47 that Christ says He came to save? And why in Eze33 does God say that it is His preference for the wicked to live when you say He always intended and created then so they would perish?
shteve77 6 days ago
@shteve77 Verses like 2 Peter 3:9 is also speaking to the beloved or believers about God's elect.Peter is telling them that Jesus will return when all the believers have been born and converted,that's why He's being patient.It makes no sense to say that God is patiently waiting for the finite number of goats that He knew before time wouldn't be saved,God is not senile,He knew both the sheep and the goats before creation.God knows everything and all things happen just as He has planned.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN 1 Tim 2:4 makes it very clear "God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men" It doesn't say "some of all types of men", it says "all men"
Heb2:9 says Christ tased death for EVERYONE.
shteve77 6 days ago
@shteve77Romans 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Those who go to Hell are examples to God's elect of how bad sin is and how awful Hell is that He saved them from.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN What you are really saying is that God imposed Irresistible Evil on people by omnipotent, sovereign decree, causing them to sin so that we could see how much God hates the sin that He caused! This is nonsense. Scripture declares God is light and that there is no darkness in Him. The God of Calvinism is full of darkness, He is the source and cause of all sin.
shteve77 6 days ago
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@shteve77 This is how God set up the Exodus so He would free His people and destroy Pharaoh Psalms 105:24-25 And the LORD made his people very fruitful and made them stronger than their foes.whose hearts he turned to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.
Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@shteve77 You can get all emotional if you like,but we must deal with scripture not your emotions,God is not a man like you think He is.Men love sin and God directs that sin.He can stop any and all sin whenever He likes,but He has a purpose for it.You seem to be angry with God because He doesn''t do what you want Him to do,so you just make up a god you like better.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@CBALLEN If God directs all sin then God is responsible for all sin. In fact He is full of darkness and the source of all evil which perfectly describes Satan not God.
shteve77 5 days ago
@shteve77Romans 9 :15 “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16 It does not, therefore, (depend on human desire or effort), but on God’s mercy.So man's "choice" plays no part in it,the thing is,no natural man desires Christ,so if one does desire Christ it's because God has regenerated him and has granted him belief.
CBALLEN 6 days ago
@shteve77 The Jews also understood the world to mean the world of Gentiles.Again,the Jews were taken by surprise that the God of Israel would have anything to do with the Gentiles,Peter still didn't like the idea and Paul confronted him on it.The Gentiles like wise had to be made to understand that Jesus was also the Savior of the Jews even though most rejected Him.Many Judahizers tried to stir up trouble between G&Js by claiming the Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law ect.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@shteve77 "The God of Calvinism is definitely insase. He declares "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."
And the only ones who will turn are God's sheep,the rest will never turn,but that doesn't mean that God is taking pleasure in their death,even though He will cast them into Hell.He could have made the world sinless,but He didn't,sin exists because it is part of His plan.He stopped many people from sinning all through the Bible.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN You are trusting in human wisdom and leaning on your own understanding instead of trusting God's word.You claim God is insane because He doesn't do things the way man thinks He should,you're worshiping a political correct god that doesn't exist.Man cannot make himself born again only God can do that,and that's accomplished by the Holy Spirit,Grace through faith and both are granted to His sheep as gifts,dead men don't choose anything good,that's why we must first B regenerated 2 belief.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN It doesn't just say God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but God also states He would rather that they live, that He would prefer they live, yet you believe He withholds from them the ability to obey that He could give them if He choses to and infact He created these people (that He tells us He would prefer they live) only for the purpose to burn them in hell for all eternity. Why does God tell us It is His preference they live when He created them to perish?
shteve77 1 week ago
@shteve77 The book of Ezekiel as a whole speak of God's sovereignty in salvation. Go to the chapters just before... Chapter 16 destruction was upon us, and the Lord came by and said, "Live!" Then to go to 33 where the passage is repeated ,then to 34 where the Lord says that He will seek out His sheep. Then to 36 and 37 where God says I will give them a new heart not for their sakes...and 37 with the dry bones.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@shteve77 A sinner that has never been converted will naturally by their own sin nature oppose anything that removes them from their life of selfism. The doctrine of election/predestination makes God really real and removes the person from the position of trying to be their own god. It cuts to the very heart and soul of a person's pride. C.H.S.
CBALLEN 1 week ago
@CBALLEN You didn't answer Ezek 33 you just quote the words of men. God clearly says in Eze33 that what He would rather, what His preference is, is that the wicked repent and live yet what the God of Calvinism clearly wants is that most men perish in hell because that's the only purpose He apparently created them for.
shteve77 1 week ago