The Pope dedicates message to children on the upcoming World

[ndw444]

Further, theistic evolution is not Darwinism. Darwinism specifically excludes the notion of a Creator and substitutes random mutation and natural (i.e. specifically not supernatural) selection as the mechanism of evolution.

The Churchs refusal to condemn a limited form of theistic evolutionism does not imply an endorsement of theistic evolutionism, nor does it even hint at any endorsement of deistic evolutionism, let alone Darwinian (i.e. atheistic) evolutionism.

[ndw444]

The Church does not condemn the notion of theistic evolution as long as it conforms to the revealed doctrine of Monogenism - but it does not necessarily endorse it either.

The Churchs position is that those holding to theistic evolutionism are not necessarily heretics. The Churchs position is not that theistic evolution is dogmatic truth.

[ndw444]

continued:

The Churchs interest in evolution thus focuses particularly on the conception of man who, as created in the image of God, cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to the species or to society. As a person created in the image of God, he is capable of forming relationships of communion with other persons and with the triune God, as well as of exercising sovereignty and stewardship in the created universe.

[ndw444]

In essence, the debate isn't really "evolution vs. creationism" but rather, how does evolution, as it is observed, fit in with church teachings?

[ndw444]

Converesely, the ascent of humans as the dominant species of life on Earth illustrates both the evolutionary principle of "survival of the fittest" as well as the Biblical principle that God gave to humanity all of the resources of the Earth as explained in the Book of Genesis. In this regard, the two concepts reach the same conclusion, albeit through different means.

[ndw444]

There is no contradiction AT ALL here. Mr. Ratzinger spoke out against the Nazi violence in Tittmoning before they came to power and then, as their power increased and the family moved to the village, he had to keep a lower profile. He had already said too much and the Nazis' power was now increasing every day.

This is why I said before always go right back to the source when people make accusations like this. Most times you can disprove them with their own source.

[ndw444]

Back to Milestones, he says as follows (p. 13)

"Father thus decided, toward the end of 1932, to change locations once more. In Tittmoning he had simply said too much against the brownshirts. In December, shortly before Christmas, we moved into our new home in Aschau-am-Inn, a well-to-do agricultural village...."

[ndw444]

Now let's go to Salt of the Earth,page 52:

"The approaching seizure of power, which he saw coming, was also the chief reason why we went to the village. There the situation was obviously much less tense, even though unfortunately there were a large number of Nazis among the country farmers. He made no public opposition; that would not have been possible even in the village."

[ndw444]

But read the whole context. This page is all about when the family lived in Tittmoning during the time period when Hitler unsuccessfully ran for President in 1932. This was BEFORE the Nazis were even in power and were as yet a bunch of thug brownshirts intimidating people in the streets with violence.

[ndw444]

for the record:

I am reading Milestones off Google Books. On Page 12, Ratzinger says:

"Time and again, in public meetings, Father had to take a position against the violence of the Nazis."

[ndw444]

the Pope was a CHILD at the time, I dont see how he can be blamed for not risking his entire family by resisting the Nazi party.

and by the way, rewright isn't even a word, so therefore i put no credence in what you say.

[ndw444]

stop changing the subject.

[ndw444]

And as far as God or gods go. Using logic try to refute Thomas Aquinas' five proofs for the existance of God.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

there exists a series of events (true)

the series of events exists as caused and not as uncaused(necessary) (Unproved so that subjective)

there must exist the necessary being that is the cause of all contingent being (subjective so not proof)

there must exist the necessary being that is the cause of the whole series of beings (False premis)

[ndw444]

you left out the fifth one.

[ndw444]

And what do you atheists have against the Nazis? Afterall, you guys pretty much share the same values.

[ndw444]

English Atheist, you stated,

""This version does not agree with Historical records from both Germay and america. This is just another attempt to rewright history by the catholic church"

This tells me that you are not serious at all. It's time for you to provide evidence to your claims. So far I haven't gotten any from you. Back them up.

[ndw444]

Under Hitler, Ratzinger says he watched the Nazis twist and distort the truth. Their lies about Jews, about genetics, were more than academic exercises. People died by the millions because of them.

[ndw444]

oh how's this:

from John Allen Jr's the pope: The Vatican's Enforcer of the Faith

"As a seminarian, he was briefly enrolled in the Hitler Youth in the early 1940s, though he was never a member of the Nazi party. In 1943 he was conscripted into an antiaircraft unit guarding a BMW plant outside Munich. Later Ratzinger was sent to Austria's border with Hungary to erect tank traps. After being shipped back to Bavaria, he deserted. When the war ended, he was an American prisoner of war."

[TheEnglishAthiest]

from John Allen Jr's the pope: The Vatican's Enforcer of the Faith""

This version does not agree with Historical records from both Germay and america. This is just another attempt to rewright history by the catholic church

[ndw444]

what historical records are we talking about?. Perhaps it's you who's rewriting history.

The Holocaust Memorial in Israel doesn't mention Ratzinger being a Nazi. Hmmmm, very interesting don't you think? You're avoiding the issues.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

In his second autobiography Milestones: Memoirs, 1927-77 (1998), he writes that his father was very vocal in public against the Nazis. In his earlier book though Salt of the Earth, he seems to contradict this, stating that his father "made no public opposition" to the Nazis

damned by his own words,

[ndw444]

show me in the book where it says this. again, you still haven't provided evidence that the Pope is a nazi.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

In his earlier book though Salt of the Earth (blind as well as deluded?)

In his second autobiography Milestones: Memoirs, 1927-77 ( oh look another cited source)

[ndw444]

you still haven't shown me where in the book it says this. you still haven't provided one iota of evidence that the Church approved of Hitler. back it up.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

Reichskonkordat (with Hitler, 1933) : Full text

google Concor watch

[ndw444]

first off,

the concordat was ensure the rights of all Catholics and protecting the Jews was in the mind of the Church when the concordat was written. But Hitler had no intention of honoring this concordat.

Once again, provide evidence that the Church approved of Hitler. You STILL HAVEN'T provided any evidence.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

. Even today the Secret Supplement does not appear in most translations: the Church won't admit to knowing that Hitler was about to start a war.

read the bloody treaty. Big brother will be proud of your ability to aply double think. but in this case the evidence is totaly clear

[ndw444]

i asked you to provide evidence that the Church approved of Hitler, you failed to do this. therefore I end this discusion now. i take it you have no intention of addressing the issue.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

the fact it has been proven that a secret alliance ( concordat ) was signed between the catholic church and the nazi party, And it is also a historical fact, that your church Knew that germany was going to war This is not opinion this is solid fact, do your own research it's not hard to find, the same goes with the books your favourite nazi wrote

as for my awfull spelling

*waves his spelling miskes allowed due to dylexia licence*

there you go you wordnazi

[ndw444]

again, to say that the concordat was an approval of the Nazi regime is stretching the truth. I've read the treaty for myself and found no approval of the Nazi regime in it. Did you actually read it? the concordat was not an alliance it was a treaty clear cut difference stupid pharisee.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

for some reason Idint expect you to acept facts, , I know how hard it is for you. delusional religious types, have a problem whith reality, and tend to think that faith is fact, and refuse to acept that the laeaders of thier particular Brand, can be flawed as they have a hot line to your imaginary friend.

As I said before Big Brother would be very proud of the way you have no problems with Double think

[callethathegreat]

Religious Types are not "delusional" in any way at all, we could say the same about you. I am guessing you believe in evolution, but i doubt you know how this earth came to be. In fact, no scientist really "knows" where it came from, there are theories and that is it, we are not a coincidence and its nearly impossible but here we are. Stay out of my religion and do not try to convert me, you do not like it when we do it to you. Have a good day, sir. Jesus forgives all, read some Good News.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

actualy It is known how planets are formed, and stars, We have observed this happening it is fact

But i dont believe in the theory of evolutuion, I acept that all the known facts support it, and it has not been disproved in 150, The theory of evolution is the best model we have to explain the Observed facts of evolution. Even the catholic church has had to admit that .

[ndw444]

The Church doesn't accept darwinian evolution.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

the modern theory of evolution has "Evolved" way beyond what darwin proposed, 150 yrs ago,as more and more evidence, from many different scientific areas of study, DNA molecular bioloy, geology, archiology, to name but a few.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

In July 2004, the International Theological Commission published a statement titled "Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God" on creation, evolution, and God's providence. The president of the commission was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, then head of doctrine in the Catholic Church, who the following year became Pope Benedict XVI.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

The statement made explicit the Church's support of the findings of modern science and biological evolution, calling universal common descent "virtually certain," and that "even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within Gods providential plan for creation."

( quoted form Theistic Evolution and the Roman Catholic Church)

[ndw444]

It is indeed true that the Catholic Church and other churches have accepted evolution. However, there are many kinds of "apples and oranges" comparisons that crop up when dealing with this topic.

The main point of confusion starts with the origin of life. There is currently no scientific explantion for why life began. We as Christians believe that God originated all life.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

you who follow the Cult of Christ, can belive all you want. it does not change the FACT you have no real tangable evidence for your superstions,

all you do is say our god did it. and that is what all the other religions claim as well

A scientific Knowledge has pushed the bounderys of where a god can be found ever smaller, so what the catholics are trying to do is to say, Yes science is right but it was our gods plan to do it that way,

In other words you believe in the god of the gaps

[TheEnglishAthiest]

And the gaps have benn getting smaller and smaller, as science fills them in

You think it Not science VS Religion

It is and science is slowly kicking religion to death, and about time to

[ndw444]

by the way, here's the qoute in it's entirety:

...acknowledges that there are several theories of evolution that are materialist, reductionist and spiritualist and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe...

[ndw444]

continued:

Pope John Pauls message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the ontological leap to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms. "

[ndw444]

By the way, Ratzinger's father spoke out against Hitler, and that resulted in him not being promoted. The Pope deserted the German Army, after being forced like many other young men of his day to enlist. He NEVER said anything in support of Hitler. I get the impression that you're accusing Ratzinger of being German. Note too that there was a strong Catholic political movement in Bavaria at the time, that his family and most Bavarians supported, that was very anti Nazi.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

razinger surrendered in 1944 hardly a desertion, Bavaria is part of germany, go look in an atlas ratzinger was a voulenreer not a conscript, he was even posted at hittlers mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden, as part of an anti aircraft unit. . So one can only conclude that Ratz, was a commited nazi, and only quit once he knew for sure that germany would loes the war

[ndw444]

"bavaria is part of germany"

What do you think I am? Stupid? I realize that Bavaria is part of Germany

Once again, just because he was in the anti- aircraft unit, that DOES NOT MAKE HIM A NAZI! Your argument therefore makes no sense.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

get the impression that you're accusing Ratzinger of being German.

your comment above, seem to state that your favourite Nazi was not a german,

and he was Not a conscript he was a voulenteer. he did not desert he surrendered(big difference)

[ndw444]

you have no proof to back up this theory.

[ndw444]

if that's your version of Catholicism then I feel bad for you. we actually encourage people to ask questions about the faith. for asking questions is the mother of knowledge.

[ndw444]

and you believe this? makes me shudder to think what kind of household you grew up in.

[ndw444]

Atheism is a religion. Besides, they say they don't believe in God. So how can you say it's not a religion?

[TheEnglishAthiest]

Shhesh you dont learn

it's not "I dont believe in GOD"

it's " I have no belief in any god, gods godess', supernatural being, as there is no evidence that can be tested that would support such a hypothosis "

see the difference? I hope! but I doubt you will

[TheEnglishAthiest]

saying atheismm is a religion is just like sayingBald is a hair colour, and not playing football is a sport

[ndw444]

straw man argument. remember, a true atheist doesn't believe in anything.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

How is non belief in any supernatural being, not believing anything.?

and about your removed post

""if you want to be stupid that's your choice. let me ask you this. if you say God doesn't exist, then why do you say that you have a brain when in fact you haven't even seen your brain? ""

well I can see why you removed such a daft comment, but ill answer it any way next post

[TheEnglishAthiest]

How do i know I have a brain in my head even though I personaly have never physicaly seen it?

I know humans have brains. I have seen human brains, the existance of human brains can be proved by experiment I am a human. therefore I have a brain.

But when it comes to gods, no one can prove that any gods exist, no one can provide one single piece of testable evidence that supports the claim that gods exist

[TheEnglishAthiest]

Mulitpul post the fault of TY not show the prievious post

[TheEnglishAthiest]

you removed this

*"stupid superstitions"? that's a good one. best joke i've heard from you yet. i find it insulting that you call my beliefs "stupid superstitions". what do you feel the need to insult Catholicism like that? Don't you know it's against the rules to insult other people's religions? find it funny how you always love to curse out Catholicism as if it is some of cult. *

Answer easy it is a cult,

[ndw444]

get yourself a dictionary and look up the term cult.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

cult( noun)

1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion. more to follow

[TheEnglishAthiest]

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

more to follow

[ndw444]

you have absolutely no business labeling catholicism as a cult. you don't even know your history either. i'm not going to bother address those erroneous statements of yours. you're nothing but bigot who just simply hates religion in general.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

as you can see from the definitions of the word CULT, that is exactly what the catholic church is.

Bigot? i'd call that projection . My mind is not closed, unlike yours,

you maybe happy with your imaginary friends as an explaination, but me ? I prefer the real world, and real facts.

I cant stand Hypocracy, and at the moment your brand of faith commit that offence all the time

[ndw444]

and i can't stand it when my God is called an imaginary friend. you're afraid of truth.

i noticed in your so-called definition of cult that you used this phrase:

"a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader."

you're not qualified to call the Catholic Church extremist by any stretch of the imagination. you're a historical moron.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

i can't stand it when my God is called an imaginary friend

Get used to it you will hear it a lot,

so if you faith is the truth show some bloody evidence, but of course you know you cant,]

so you cling to the hope that your imaginary friend is real.

as I have told you you wouldnt know the truth if it stood up and bit you, as you cant tell the difference between faith and fact

[ndw444]

if you want to be stupid that's your choice. let me ask you this. if you say God doesn't exist, then why do you say that you have a brain when in fact you haven't even seen your brain?

[TheEnglishAthiest]

you're nothing but bigot

your pojecting

[ndw444]

you operate under the assumption that religion is the opium of the world. your rant sounds very marxist to me.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

so the last thing I should expect from you is logic

because you quite clearly have no grasp on reality , as you mistake your Faith for fact

[ndw444]

and we all know what happens when atheism becomes the religion, without a belief in God there's no reason to respect life.

[ndw444]

If you don't feel threatened, then why did you even bother posting on here? And also, Ratzinger was forced into Hitler's youth, HE HAD NO CHOICE! Resistance WOULD'VE GOTTEN YOU KILLED. If the fucking communist symbol fits wear the damn thing you old racist supremicist.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

I note with interest you dont mention the Borgias. Mind you why should i be suprised that a catholic supporter, would ignore an embarasing FACT

[ndw444]

and why do you ignore the fact that atheistic communists are responsible for 200 million deaths? funny isn't it? you have the devil as your father. I pity people like you.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

so are you now claiming that to be an atheist (some one who has no belief in any supernatural deity)is to be a communist?

and you further seem to make the claim that stalin had people killed because he was an atheist? but as I said before religion has blinded you to fact, all you hear is the dogma of whatever brand of faith you subscribe to,

and as long as religion has you in shackels your mind will be forever closed to any thing exept stupid superstions

[ndw444]

"stupid superstitions." that's hilarious. you should be comedian.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

you forgot the countless times genocide has been commited by the orders of one god or another, even the god you believe in has odered that more than once, if you. dont belive me? I suggest you read your holy hand book of dogma part one( old testamaent to you)

the catholic church has carried out a lot of murder as wel l* cough * inquizition *cough* , or had you convenently forgotten that?

[ndw444]

the Church left it up to the state of how to deal with the inquisitions. i'm curious as to what biographies you read.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

so how am I a racist? or a communist ?care to explain your logic on that?

interesting that you have me wear a symbol to mark out the fact I dont agree with you

A yellow star pehaps?

[ndw444]

we have thing called guilt by association. people who accuse the Pope of Nazism are often racist themselves. they support abortion, same-sex unions and every other sin under the sun.

[TheEnglishAthiest]

sounds about right, they wouldnt want the fact the the catholic church aproved of hitler to become to public

[ndw444]

Hitler was not a Catholic. Plus, he wasn't of the Church's jurisdiction. Stupid people repeat the same old lies the communists repeated.

[ndw444]

And by the way, the Pope's father was opposed to Nazism. Next time educate yourself a little bit. But I see that the communists are alive and well on here.

[ndw444]

This shows how little you actually know about catholic doctine. You trash the pope because you feel threatened by him. May God remove the gunk and filth from you heart you a-historical bigot.

[wildboy789789]

im allowed to debate my ideas... george bush and the pope havent got rid of free speech entirely yet