Is Science The Answer?-Shabir Allay Vs Dr. Peter Atkins

[alifeofreason]

I'm an atheist and I think Peter Atkins is an idiot! I actually really like Shabir Ally, even though I ultimately disagree with him. I study philosophy and there are few theists who I think I could actually sit down and have a rational discussion with. But Shabir might be someone who I could do that with. There is a long history of rational philosophy in the Muslim tradition. I greatly admire Avicenna. I personally follow the philosophy of Spinoza.

[jedah76]

 Well I know it is the answer to combating infant mortallity.

[khashayar44]

This Islamic guy addresses Razi,the genius Persian scientist,as one of the scholars belonging to the Muslim world.What an absolute piece of NONSENSE!Razi was and ATHEIST with respect to the personal god or the personified god and he even wrote a book in which he debunked all the religious claptrap. Unfortunately, the ruthless and illiterate Muslim rulers burned all the copies of his precious book and the only way to find out what he'd said is looking at the quotations used in other people's work

[MrPiscario]

when it comes to the matter of Bible, you Christians are trying your best to become the biggest stupids in the world. God is creating everything, so why do

God want to become like one of its creations?!!!! That also, like human being, the sinners?!!!! Then you say, it's for forgiving the origial sin. But if somebody is punished, then where is the forgiveness?!!!! If somebody forgive sombody else, then there will be no punishment at all, but here, Jesus is punished. So, what is forgiveness?!!!

[khashayar44]

Shabbir Ally purports that Quran is the word of god. Now, if an omnipotent and omniscient god wrote this book, he could have done a far better job at explaining the scientific phenomena such as evolution, the quantum physics, relativity, composition of the solar system, structure of water etc. Also, he's absolutely convinced that quran is the word of god. What is his evidence for that claim? The quran! He says because the quran says therefore it must have been god who wrote it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[irfan0sakib]

@khashayar44 I guess you didn't get the point of Shabir Ally. He mentioned many scientific facts in the Quran namely the Embryological evidence from the verses in the Quran confirmed by Keith Moore. Moreover, the verse that both the Earth and the Sun revolved inspired Muslim astronomer, Al Biruni to write a book on it.

[khashayar44]

It's pity that Shabbir claims the credit for the contribution of Persian scientists who were atheists and had nothing to do with Islam for the muslim world. Khawrazmi, Birouni, Razi, Avecina and Khayyam were Persian scientists who had discarded religion and had embarked upon a path of unraveling the truth. These scientists were forced to pretend to be muslims or they would have been executed by arabo muslims.

[irfan0sakib]

None of the scientists you mentioned above were atheists as a matter of fact. Well, the great medicine scholar Razi was not a Muslim but was indeed a theist on which he wrote philosophical books. His views on religion were later criticized by Ibn Sina and Al Biruni Iranianian specialist, Seyyed Hossein Nasr and described Omar Khayyam as a Sufi poet.

Al Khwarizmi is supposed to be Zoroastrian or Muslim by the historians but none claimed him to be atheist.

[khashayar44]

@irfan0sakib What I meant was that they were atheists with respect to your Allah or Yahweh. They believed in something much more grander and profound, which is to be found in the concept of emanation. There's absolutely no shred of evidence to rationally and logically prove that your Allah has created the world.

[irfan0sakib]

@khashayar44 "your Allah?" Why are you personalizing God like the neo-atheists? Logic is an Aristotelian concept which was refuted over thousand years by Algazel and Averroes and thinking merely rationally certainly doesn't encapsulate the "more grander, profound i.e. the concept of emanation" as you say. God is by definition universal. A personal God is surely a petty one.

[khashayar44]

@irfan0sakib I find it absolutely puzzling that you are not aware that the god of the particular religion in which you have happened to have been brought up in is mutually exclusive with the gods of all other religions that are out there.According to your Allah,Jesus was not god and consequently of no divine origin and a Christian believes in the complete opposite. So, the god of the Abrahamic religion is NOT the universal god and certainly doesn't have the capacity to be one.

[irfan0sakib]

@khashayar44 in that case do you concept of "more grander and profound, which is to be found in the concept of emanation" to be false too? Look brother, having different opinions on a particular matter or subject doesn't make all of them false. Hence, it doesn't therefore make the matter or the subject non-existential.

[1bacsceco]

@khashayar44 yes we have theological differences with Christians, but one way or another, there's only one true God, don't call him Allah, or anything, but we all agree that there's a God, a creator, designer and ruler of this whole universe, He always existed and always will. another thing, in the Qur'an you can find plenty of scientific facts that were discovered just recently, I can give you some if you want, so, everybody must agree that it was impossible for a man in a desert 1400 years ago

[1bacsceco]

@khashayar44 to know such things, the logic explanation for that is that a superior being (God Almighty) told him that, and to answer why God didn't do a "better job" at explainig scientific phenomena, because if you tell a man who lived 1400 years ago that water is in fact H2O, or if you try to explain to him quantum physics, he will take you for the biggest crazy man of all history, and no one would believe you, so the Qur'an spoke in a manner that any man from any century could understand,

[1bacsceco]

@khashayar44 this is another reason why the Qur'an is considered a miracle, please I'll be happy to answer all your questions if you have any, don't hesitate. May Allah guide you and guide us all to His right path.

Salam.

[irfan0sakib]

@khashayar44 Razi was a theist if not a Muslim. He wrote books on Theism too and his views on Islam were refuted by Ibn Sina and Al Biruni. God is an absolute entity, which is what you are failing to realize. Razi's anti-religious books are available even in reference section of his Wikipedia page. Agree with 1bacsceco on his comment.

[HIMAZZZ1991]

don/t u realise sth?that even if we come to know the origin of the universe,THAT DOESNT DISAPPROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Curiousquest2]

Thanks Nazam44 for posting this debate.

[halaghawani1]

I love it when Atkins says no religious book says the universe is expanding lol, he walked right into it didnt he.

Just because some belief is universal does not mean it is true, everyone used to believe the world was flat does that make them right.

Atkins did not really show where the prophet Muhammad got all the scientific facts that were not even known at his time, he only implied that they were stolen from the Greeks.

[evoneal]

hes right. you are an idiot. the koran was NEVER translated to mean "the unvierse is expanding' until AFTER scientists figured it out in the late 1800's. For proof, try to find an early translation which says that. you will fail.

[jabedin1]

so you think the arabic language was changed so that the quran can be translated to mean the universe is expanding. who is the idiot?

[amitroy88]

No offence jabedin1. your inferences to your argument is simply wrong. please try to understand what evoneal is trying to say. hope you understand and this is for your sake really.

[moh490234890238490]

@jabedin1 the word expanding can not be found in any of the translation of the quran prior to 1922(big bang theory).

[Propaine187]

@moh490234890238490

where is your proof?



[moh490234890238490]

@Propaine187 YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

the first one to use the world expandind in the quran is the Maurice Buceill(1976)transaltion, And i think its banned in Saudi Arabia.

[Propaine187]

@moh490234890238490

LOOK TO THE ARABIC. The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "EVSEA," meaning "to EXPAND." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent."

[moh490234890238490]

@Propaine187 Also check out this video.

watch?v=RH4SWvrG1OU

[moh490234890238490]

@Propaine187 M. Asad ((1900–1992) did his translation in 1932, 3 years after Hubble told the world the Universe was expanding. His "translation" is banned in Saudi Arabia, as it "deviates from the orthodox interpretation of some passages (according to Khaleel Mohammed in "Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an").

[moh490234890238490]

@Propaine187 Big dosent mean its getting bigger evryday

[amitroy88]

Halaghawani,

You love it, so do i ;) not for the reason you do but because it nothing but the truth. No religion precisely says the universe is expanding and please dont start on islam claiming the earth to be round. If you want to learn and enlighten yourself, i can surely give you sources you can learn and understand from. If not, do not bother replying to this. ;)

[ulizinho]

Atkins is the man !

[dilseislam]

That Makes Shabir Ally the SuperMan!

lol

watch the complete debate before you comment.

[ulizinho]

I am sorry, dont wont to be respectless to you, but I am really not into religion.

No book is ever big enough to explain the world, neither a chemistry book nor the bible or the khoran.

all the best for you

[dilseislam]

It is nice to see some Athiest showing some Respect for others and not cusing!

well i might ask you, how do you define Life and this universe?

why do you think there is no God?

[ulizinho]

Well, respect. I try to respect human beings, independently from sex, race and talents. Concerning philosophic views it is kind of more difficult. Shall I respect or tolerate intolerance?

Life: Reproduction of self-copying of molecules and organized matter. Therefore viruses are somewhat inbetween life and non-living matter.

I dont know whether there is GOD. Who among us knows? My brain and senses are made for earthly life and not for solving metaphysical assumptions. But:Religion is ímmoral.

[Nazam44]

Without religion how would you define what is good or bad?

[ulizinho]

difficult question. Maybe with reason and my possibility of being a loving person and empathy.

Religion only devides in believers and unbelievers, and that causes often, not always, but yet too often hate. And lots of religious books are full of hatred.

[ulizinho]

Would you say, that your child is behaving morally well, doing good things, if he/she only obeys your orders, but does wrong things as soon as you dont look ?

Real moral stems from your freedom, your insight and your possibilty of feeling the other person´s feelings, your empathy.

If you just follow orders, you have, as Nietzsche wrote, morals of slaves.

Erich Fromm wrote, and I agree, that "good" religion must free humanity.

Science does not say anything about morals, here I am with you.

[HoboBeatz]

please show where you derive your standard of "real" morality. why is empathy good? i'm sure you're going to say its advantageous life and therefore society. by why is life valuable? please show why living matter in the state of living are more valuable than inanimate objects such as rocks.

[ulizinho]

Well, yes. The positive effect of altruism on the survival can not be denied. In fact it is the only possible darwinist explanation for it. However, this is not a ethical argument.

You could pick Immanuel Kant´s philosophy, too.

I could also ask you to show, why God or Allah or Jahwe is the only source for morality. Why is Jahwe so immoral in the Old Testament ? Aint that contradictive ?

What I like about Islam and Judaism is the strictness about forbidding to define Allah/Jahwe.

[HoboBeatz]

yea survival...but is survival in itself "good"? evolution is geared towards survival, but that just an arbitrary goal (if there is no god). seems like without a god there isn't even a meaning to "good". and this leads to the explanation of why god is good. the definition of good depends on gods nature. god is the standard of good. and when you say god was immoral in the old testament...what standard are you even using to judge?

[HoboBeatz]

god's character from old to new testament is completely consistent if you understood the dilemma of sin, justice and grace.

[HoboBeatz]

but you're probably just going to totally discard what i say anyway because you're probably unwilling to try to understand theology...and i don't blame you, if i were atheist i'd shut my ears off to things of god too.

[RationalConclusion]

By using reason, logic, knowledge, critical thinking, rationale and common sense.

[tolerancelastic]

that was a great opening presentation by Shabir Ally. he is so methodical mashallah!

[aimalkhan]

Masha'Allah. Shabir Ally dismantled Atheism using atheist sources alone.

Great Video. 5 Stars.