Toyama ryu kenjutsu sparring

[TheKrynnium]

this was an excellent video, in my uneducated opinion. i am an amateur boxer, but my ultimate goal is to train with a blade. Not necessarily to learn how to kill with one, but to learn about the pride and discipline that seems to come with it. im just having a hard time breaking into the art because i dont currently know of any dojo near my location. moving to North Carolina soon, however, and am hoping to find something out there. anyone have any tips on getting started?

[Fartloading6Fartload]

@TheKrynnium if you are looking for something like this, i'm pretty sure you won't find it in America. although you might be able to find a kendo dojo in North Carolina. but you will be training with shinai and will probably never touch a steel sword however.

[kegage408]

@linkinfacu(con’t): As to my being “just another "sporty martial artist", if my responses here do not convince you of the seriousness in which I take my training and my art, then I will have to relegate you into the category of those “Martial Arts Snobs” that have determined that anything different from how they train is inferior, and therefore is to be dismissed and criticized, regardless of the obvious knowledge and skills of those they condemn.

[kegage408]

 @linkinfacu(con’t): In my 30+ years of training, I have seen many people from other disciplines come and go, and the two overall difficulties they had were adjusting to delivering and receiving full power cuts, and developing their skills in perceiving and reacting to an attack. This was mainly due to the previous light, or nonexistent sparing training they had received

[kegage408]

@linkinfacu(con’t): Taken to its core, kata is a choreographed training routine. If you’re martial discipline is training to fight; those things alone will only teach the elements that can be use in a fight, not how to use them in a fight. Someone that bases their training in kata and drills will be technically proficient in those aspects, but will be lacking in the necessary perception and reaction skills needed for the unknowns of combat to be competent in fighting without actually fighting

[kegage408]

@linkinfacu: Thank you for your response and your English is fine. I do, however slightly resent the stupid remark. We may have different ways of viewing the martial arts, but they are just that, different. Neither is right or wrong. How someone is “better” can be subjective. I do not deny the beauty, function, and discipline acquired through the traditional methods of training. As I stated before, they are a primary part of my training, but kata is not fighting.

[horim2004]

Also, these are definitely steel swords.

It's obvious most of you have never heard the sound of steel swords hitting each other with your own ears. That's the sound it makes. How it sounds in the movies isn't how it sounds in real life, it's actually much different.

[horim2004]

This is a great video, and an even greater combat session.

I have been waiting for Eastern Martial Arts to catch up to the Euros - HEMA has been going pretty hardcore full contact free-play with blunted steel for several years, while us East Asians have been messing around with foam boppers. Useless. Even using bokken isn't quite the same thing, it doesn't approximate the same type of fear factor. Your whole approach and strategy will become different from when you know it's 100% safe.

[kegage408]

k0ns0l3: (Continued) There is an old saying that applies here; “Train how you what to fight for you will fight how you train”. When you limit how you train you will limit how you fight. It goes to muscle memory and mental conditioning. In the heat of combat, be it real, or sport, you will resort to how your body and mind have trained.

[linkinfacu]

@kegage408 dont be stupid! you think that because a martial artist doesnt have for priority in his training the sparring you will be better? your just another "sporty martial artist" the real beauty of these arts is in their tradicional way and trainings, not in only train for "combats" and sparring and let go all the tradicional things. (sorry for the shitty english ^^ )

[kegage408]

k0ns0l3: I have to disagree somewhat. Kendo is a martial art, but it is a stylized one. It is important to learn other things besides killing, but all the other martial arts also teach those things. Limited targets equal limited techniques and form. I also train in a different from traditional style of kenjutsu. Our primary training is sparring. We use katas and drills to learn, and improve, cutting technique, perception, movement and form, but our primary learning venue is in combat sparring.

[k0ns0l3]

So much koryu snobbery going on here. Kendo IS a martial art, whether you agree with it or not. There are more important things to Kendo than learning how to kill another person, that's why it doesn't really matter if there are "limited targets" or whatnot. Same thing with Iaido and Jodo.

[midnightstefan22]

@EvilDarkJackel yes they would. We once had a kendo national champ at our dojo and we did some duels with him and he lost hard :P he was so surprised that we moved sideways and dident keep a streight line :P in conclusion kendo is a sport Kenjutsu is a martial art.

[midnightstefan22]

i dont want to disrespect the school but i to study kenjutsu and we have duels and the ones that are dueling here are obviously beginers and i say that because of all those useless movements and i sow only a few clean cuts the rest wore more like scratches and theyr moustly went for the others sword and not theyr oponent. Do you want to bruise your enemy or defeat him? again i dont want to disrespect the school.

[HomunculusProject]

The best part was at the end, where he checked if the sparring partner was ok. :)

[gottitgood4me]

Notice how they NEVER raised the blade behind their head!! Bravo!! Raising a blade behind your head always seemed kind of wrong to me

[tomurso]

@gottitgood4me Due to the bogu (armor), I would assume that raising the sword way behind the head is difficult. In addition, chudan no kame (middle stance) is typically employed as it is the one that best protects the swordmsman. Jodan no kame (high position) can be used but distance (maai) is much, much more important.

[Kunstdesfechtens]

@gottitgood4me Fiore and Meyer show the sword behind the head/back in their manuals. One is like Hasso angled down and back over the shoulder, and the other is Hasso behind the head with the point still up. It allows a very powerful cut. If you know your range very well, you can make good use of it. If you don't, it's another story. :)

[hiphoplivs]

at 1:02 mother fuckers chest cavity woulda been on the ground! if those swords were real and they didnt have armor on of course

[faststrike44]

This is not kenjutsu. This is kendo with metal swords. If you want to see what real kenjutsu looks like, check out the clips of the Katori Shinto Ryu. The Clips of Otake sensei sparring with the wooden bokken are the most authentic on youtube.

[zenaku85]

@faststrike44 This is not kendo. Kendo uses limited strikes and footwork. It's a kenjutsu but there are many style of kenjutsu. It's posible that people from iaijutsu or something like that are trying to do something stupid. i know that they are very sloppy at it.

[tomurso]

@faststrike44 Though Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu certainly is a fine koryu, I have seen no evidence that this ryuha incorporates jikeiko into their curriculum. The "sparring" that I believe you think you have seen from Otake sensei is actually kumitachi or pre-arranged/choreographed partner drills. There is nothing wrong with this approach as many koryu follow it but it is not live sparring. In addition, this a clip from a tai kai which any style present could participate in gekken,

[soapysk]

I like may have to try that next

[ihaterobbie123]

OOOH, brutal. Looks like loads of fun though. Might give it a try after doing kendo for so long.

I've never really looked into kenjutsu, what are the main schools alive today?

[buskowiak]

after kendo it may be shock, where you can cut in kenjutsu ;p

main schools nowadays are kashima shin ryu, katori shinto ryu. Find them on wiki and there will be list of all kenjutsu ryu existing and not. Take a look on battodo schools too.

If you are living in UK, USA be aware of dozens of fake dojo with master that act as he knew something when he knew nothing, but after kendo experiance you will probably won't be fooled.

[KOGR11]

@buskowiak you should add yagyu shinkage.

[buskowiak]

Well, I find this ryu pretty rare IMO, didn't heard about many schools of this one around,, however in many places of world many rare schools may be found.

However I feel big respect for people from line that come through teaching of yagyu school, one of most effective in Japan.

[tomurso]

Many schools of kenjutsu existed & some are still around today, with modern Kendo being one of them. Differences in curriculums may vary from keiko to kumitachi. Also in the gendai relm is Goshindo (All Japan Goshindo Federtation). Regardless if one practices with a padded weapon (Sports Chanbara) or with bogu & shinai bukuro, training can be both intense & enjoyable. The sparring in this clip also looks to be fun & an eye-opener.

[evilgummieshark]

I am confused. There is no ringing. Are we sure they are not composite, like rsw?

[ricehatman]

nope, steel. I know, I got hit by it hahahaha

[evilgummieshark]

@ricehat: Which one are you?

[ricehatman]

I'm the guy with the white tabi, gray hakama. I used gedan kamae a lot

[Firronox]

@ricehatman dude, could you tell me where you one can get an armour like in this clip for sparring?

[fremendruin]

Iaito are blunt katanas. The points are still dangerous, however most techiniques involve slashing moves.

[zimonslot]

Awesome! Way cooler then Kendo! Is this practiced with boken or shinai?

[skrivbok]

Says "blunt steel Katanas" up to the right, my friend :)

[zimonslot]

@skrivbok

well that's very very dangerous then.

[skrivbok]

Not necessarily (spelling??). If they wear proper protection gear, and the swords are not sharp... I don't believe it's that dangerous, really :)

[tomurso]

Regardless of bogu, keiko with steel blunt can be dangerous. Remember one can still cut tatami omote with a mogito. However, I believe the gentlemen in this clip are skilled enough to practice with a modicum of safety.

[bushin64]

Awesome!

[DonZaloog88]

your mind is your worst enemy. dont think about your next move, ever. just-do it. its been proven that by thinking about the actual strategy, when, how, what, etc,etc, to do something, slows you down. . .

[zimonslot]

@DonZaloog88

every techique must be drilled into the brain so you can perform it without hestitation.

[DonZaloog88]

pretty much :D

[janchodkiewicz]

Are you sure that is steel weapon? It sounds like somethig else...

[ZomgAnime00]

it is but has like no edge but if not steal prob iron

[SenseiAndyTengu]

Really great to see good kenjutsu fighting instead of the usual non-contact stuff. We practice a style of fighting like this at the tengu dojo UK. In Cobu kenjutsu we use modern armour/protective equipment but use real bokkens, the sparring is full-contact. Check out the vids of Cobu warriors and cobu kenjutsu on Youtube. The katane is such a perfect, manouverable weapon, very exciting training.

[VegaEtereo]

Sweet.

[mobofobo]

really great!! finally a video on youtube that has real kenjutsu sparring :)

[newaza2boddha]

not as interesting as watching kendo

[mjjlcy]

Kendo and the other kenjutsu are not for fun.

[poopwadmcgee]

not as lame as kendo

[dasdatmitch07]

this needs to happen more often. i would like to see a revival of swordsmanship through the development of better "games" like these. worldwide tournaments even

[furtifjh]

@dasdatmitch07 With cutting swords to be more "genuine" ;)

This is way more stylish than with shinais. Thanks for posting it, man.

[kingcooperoftheneast]

i find kendo more of a sport like for of the art. very limited and simple. its great for people who are much mor into competing rather than... well. umm i duno what you call it. umm. just practicing? anyway. i think kendo is boring. but thats just my opinion. i dont enjoy sports as much as arts. parkour over track. kenjutsu over kendo. but to his, his own opinion.

[RogueChinchilla]

Yeah, from my limited understanding, the do ending denotes a "way of life" like, bushido. Whereas jutsu is what, technique? So from what i gather, Kenjutsu is much broader and open than kendo, where you have rigid stances and only certain targets are acceptable. I too think Kendo is rather boring, and that most of the vids of them demonstrating techniques are well... Close to being worthless. Its rehearsed and doesn't work in real life. All it seems good for are fundamentals like timing/distance

[ronin2167]

@RogueChinchilla Only by western countries. Japanese use the terms interchangably.

[Saemaey]

easily fixed. all participants in the sparring signes forms of release thus taking all and any responsibility away from the sensei

[Kunclik]

what it different between kendo and kenjutsu?

[scottishkendo]

made up.nothing to do with either kendo or real kenjutsu,,,,,,,,,,,,,i geuss therefore ameican

[IshiYamaRyuSeattle]

Sorry, that is incorrect. This is habiki gekken which was organized by Hataya Sensei (the judge) and took place in Machida, Japan. Participants came from different styles including Toyama Ryu (gendai battodo) and Mugai Ryu (koryu kenjutsu; the iai curriculum came from Jikyo Ryu). A Toyama Ryu practitioner won the event (the guy in this video), and he has a background in kendo.

[scottishkendo]

ok...cheap jibe about it being American and apologies....it's still not very convincing.....at least kendo never lost the plot and pretend to fight with metal blades...why?Even Japanese get caught up in the "ninja" myth and practice dubious styles....either way it a mish mash of styles and therefore falls way short of any real koryu....i ifnd it odd!

[Geluhvsgatsiskwa]

What sort of armor are they wearing, and where might it be found for purchase?

[IshiYamaRyuSeattle]

It is my understanding that they used a combination of reinforced kendo bogu, soccer pads, and a few other things. A lot of custom work, so it can't be purchased directly.

[kingcooperoftheneast]

internet. or specialty stores. if you live near any major citys that have a china town or little tokyo, you could probly find some there

[KhuranDixal]

Ehm, I'm not sure I can understand the question. Sorry, english isn't my mother language...

[KhuranDixal]

I thought you were talking about free sparring, not about using blunt blades, sorry :)

[KhuranDixal]

Don't you think that free sparring is fundamental for developing true and deep sword skill? I think it is. But everyone has his opinion. ;)

[neomauresque]

yeah that's what a real fight, looks like !

[okitasan]

oof, did the smaller guy hit him on the back of the head in the end?

[mass25000]

IMHO...OMG!!!

[AgentCell]

this looks wack. they fight like rookies.

[KhuranDixal]

So please let us see something from you, if you're so skilled :)

[Konane12]

Are those really steel blunts? Maybe it's bad recordings fault, but it doesn't sound like steel on steel to me?

Good video anyway, been looking for something like that for some time.

[tiamat9989]

I think they are steel. Unsharpened and thicker blades (blunts) wouldn't make the sweet metallic clanging sound, but based on the shine of the blades (if u look closely) and the slipperyness of the blade-blade contact, they certainly look like steel.

[Konane12]

Hm I know what sound steel blunts make, i use them regularly. But seem so me that there is in fact very little blade to blade contact, so those sounds might be hits against armor.

I would as well like to see or try a longsword against someone like that, this is by far the best video of Japanese swordsmanship I've seen so far.

[tiamat9989]

Hmm, you could be right. At one point the guy on the left has to straighten his sword or something, and that's something I used to do in sport fencing with the steel foils.

Either way, this is the best Japanese swordsmanship video I've seen too; I wonder where xraz0r found it...finding good sparring videos in JSA is really hard.

[ricehatman]

Hi, i'm one of the contestants in the video. Those are real steel blunts.

[Konane12]

Cool, thanks for clarification. Anyway, am I off the markt when I said that there seems to be little blade on blade contact here? I've read before that japanese sword arts in general discourage blade on blade contact, but I don't know if that is true?

[ricehatman]

well sometimes, it happened not because you wanted it to, but it just happened. But yes you do try to avoid blade to blade contact.

[NortonAntor]

This is the thing that a lot of people've been looking for.

[mightydagon]

I loved the kick. Nice to see a bit of variety in technique.

[EishinRyu]

wow that exchange from 0:22 to 0:27 was very skill full, speaking for both parties. well done

[timj49]

Where was this? I've never seen this before... Very interesting...

[ricehatman]

This is in Machida Japan

[ricehatman]

Oh also, although it was held at a Toyama Ryu Tai Kai, the style is not Toyama ryu. It's an open exhibition so any style can join.

[xraz0r]

This sounds nice. I would have enjoed some steel sparring with somebody training kenjutsu. I train european swordfighting and we always spar with steel blunts, since they actually are the best sword simulator. But going to japan would be to expensive for me :(

[Kunstdesfechtens]

I'd love to test my German Longsword skills against any of these guys. Going to Japan's certainly too expensive for me as well. Maybe someday. :)

[mightydagon]

Good luck. Japan has some serious laws with regards to swords from other countries. And they do not fuck around when it comes to those particular laws.

[tiamat9989]

If you do that, most definitely record it on video. I would really, really love to see Longsword vs Katana for REAL--not the usual youtube crap where one side or the other doesn't know what the hell he's doing. =)

[arnoldhwang]

@xraz0r Wow, I would love to see European fencing vs This style of Japanese swordfighting. I'm not insulting, but IMO it would be pretty interesting.

[xraz0r]

check out our new sparring video with european sword an buckler in my favorites!

[ricehatman]

That's me on the left at the start of the video, and then against the second opponent, i'm on the right.

[kfkonrad]

Looks like fun!

[IshiYamaRyuSeattle]

I had heard that some individuals were beginning to use blunted katanas for sparring but this is the first time I've actually seen it. I'm always wanted to know about how much protection the armor actually provides and if it significantly hinders range of motion or not.

[ricehatman]

Your head, shins, hands, and body is protected the most. Feels like a really hard shinai strike again bogu. More psychological than anything else because damn...it's a real sword blunted or not. The armor makes it a bit difficult to go into jodan but that's about it.

[IshiYamaRyuSeattle]

I also heard the swords were prone to bending. Was this the case when you were sparring? Also, did this occur more as a result of blocking or from hitting the armor (particularly at an ackward angle)?

[ricehatman]

They do bend but more so because the swords that were used are pretty thin, and have been used for demos etc for the last 3 years. But def happened more so from blocking. However if you parried correctly or received correctly, this did not happen

[IshiYamaRyuSeattle]

Looks like my other comment didn't post. Anyway, I heard that this taikai was by invitation; do you happen to know what other schools were present?

[KhuranDixal]

I searched something like that for years :D