we are all at different levels of our faith. The weak restrict the foods they eat and what days they keep. Those whose faith is strong believe they can eat anything.
I think this is a case like that..typically those who believe in pre-trib comment that it would be more than anyone can handle. Some have anyway.
I think this situation is much like when paul talks about not judging those in meat or drink or in respect of an holy day..one thinks one day is holy another thinks all days are.
Some think you can eat everything, some don't. What matters is the cross. If the pre-trib doesn't happen, they'll need the help of those whose faith is still strong.
its not a salvation issue and we shouldn't make it such. Just be aware that our faith and hope should be in christ and not when the rapture is...incase it doesn't happen.
Too much stock in pre-trib could cause a falling away should it not happen.
what identifies us as children of God? Is it when we believe the rapture is and our personal thoughts on prophecy?
Or is it the Holy Spirit dwelling in you that declares you've been bought with a price, securing you as a child of God, heir to the promises of God whenever they should come?
Please know I mean no offense. I speak from having been there and what i realized of myself.
Id read the verse but it was like i'd overlook the rest. Almost like blinders. Then one day i saw the verse in full and did a double take. When we see thief even in matthew its a ref to same time. If you don't want to keep chatting feel free to stop responding and I will to.
2 Peter 3:10 states that the day of the Lord will occur like a thief in the night and alongside of it the elements melting in fervent heat, etc.
When this verse is read in its entirety you can tell its not speaking of a pre-trib thief in the night scenerio but his return at the end which is the day of the Lord. We can't ignore the rest of the verse which I did for so long without even realizing it. Nearly all pre-tribbers do.
thus I know that nothing I say would convince you either. Only the bible and his Spirit have that power.
As for the resurrected. Why do you think they don't meet him in the air? No where in revelations is it mentioned not even when speaking to the church does that mean there is no meeting since its not there either?
Of course not. If you are resurrected, you do meet him in the air. Take the verse I mentioned in my earlier post.
@Myhopeisinhim RESURRECTED does NOT mean to "meet Christ in the air". Where did you learn that nonsense? It means they are "raised from the dead" - like Lazarus, Jesus Christ, and the many that were resurrected Christ died. The 2 Witnesses in Revelation 11 are "resurrected" & ascend to Heaven in front of their enemies - hence "Raptured". I think you are right, though, you will be down here to help those left behind, since you think you should be persecuted. No Crown for YOu!
The dead who die because they refuse to worship the beast and follow Jesus to their death, are they dead in Christ or no? The bible tells us...that the dead in Christ will rise first and then we which are alive and remains hall meet them in the air. You have yet to show me how those in the tribulation are separate from this phrase.
Of course not all resurrected will meet him in the air, the ones who are the wicked dead won't.
It's not about thinking I should be persecuted. I'd love nothing more than to escape in a pre-trib rapture. That is the best tickle the ear doctrine out there...It's not about wanting to, it's about Jesus saying you will be:
Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
We're told bluntly that we will be persecuted, and that we will face tribulation but be of good cheer I have overcome the world. I know this is not something you like to consider, but I do pray that if you find yourself in the tribulation that your faith will not be shaken.
@Myhopeisinhim Those are CHRISTIANS who are DEAD ..... you just don't get it, do you? I don't respond to anyone's "BOOK" that they post to me. You are being unchristian when you don't even read the Scriptures I give you. You are preaching phony doctrine and for that you will reap what you sow. No wonder the Lord Himself couldn't reach so many .... you are one of them ... a denier and now you're turning into a Charlatan .... You, my friend, are deaf, blind - so long.
Why are you assuming I'm not reading the verses you give? Is it because I'm not turning to your way of thinking?
Please remember, we both love the Lord and are looking forward to his glorious appearing. What we believe about this doesn't determine our salvation, let's keep friendly, no need to make rude comments. Let's use this as a bible study instead okay?
@Myhopeisinhim You've got a long way to do to catch up. No, not because of my way of thinking, but because are completely DENYING the Word of God. Like I said, a lot of Christians are going to be left down here - they're NOT in the Rapture & you are probably going to be one of them. So why do you keep posting to me? You're wrong, so I have nothing further to say to you. I'm confident My Lord is coming for us BEFORE His Judgments & Wrath & you want to argue. So stay down here.
I'm not denying the word of God, although I do admit I disagree with your interpretation of it as you do of mine. Just one more post and I'll allow us to part at an impasse.
Do you recall how the term "thief in the night" is used of the pre-trib rapture because its believed that it couldn't possibly mean his return at the end because everyone would know when his return was then, right at the end of the seven years, etc....
But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment
I had read this verse over and over before but never took to heart the implications of it when thinking about the rapture.
The day of the Lord, his return at the end of the tribulation, occurs like a thief in the night. To learn that this phrase related to that day and not a pre-trib rapture took me by surprise. That was the start of my journey, but no means the end of it. I pray that you will take a good hard look at this verse and lay aside all preconceived ideas and search the scriptures fully for the answers.
May God bless you on your journey..I look forward to seeing you in the sky:)
@Myhopeisinhim Jesus Comes as a "thief in the night" to His Church ..... He will catch millions upon millions of them sinning; therefore He leaves them behind. Revelation 3:3 Over and over He uses a "thief" as an example to "be ready" for the Rapture: Matthew 24:42-44; 25:1-13; Luke 12:35-48; 1Thessalonians 5:1-2; Revelation 16:15; 22:12. "Suddenly, Quckly, Quietly" - "No Warning". These Verses are to His Believers, His Church, His Choosen, to ALWAYS Be Ready, Living FOR Him
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I can not wait to see you with your lunch pail waiting for a pre-trib rapture while the trib is going on saying what happened. Have a great falling away(brought to you by raymond1967)
About crowns: Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life
We're also told that if we're persecuted for righteousness sake great will be our reward in heaven. I'm quoting the bible here..I'm not a fan of being persecuted, but with his...
did that convince me at that moment that pre-trib may not be accurate, not really. i still believed it, but i decided that I needed to do more research and let the scriptures and his Spirit reveal to me what he wanted me to know.
I set aside preconcieved notions and started from scratch so to speak. It took a while before my mind was really changed but after a good hard look, I had no choice but to lay down the teaching of pre-trib.
No man could convince me, only the scriptures did.
It wasn't until I had my world rocked by a verse that I read countless times before but never realized the implication of the latter half of the verse. we often quoted 2 Peter 3:10's phrase, thief in the night and associate it with a pre-trib rapture because after all how could his return at the end be like a thief as we all know it happens at the end etc.
When I read that the term referred to the day of the Lord and what happened on that day, i knew it wasn't referring to a pre-trib.
I feel I should share some about myself so you know where I'm coming from if I haven't already. i believed in a pre-trib rapture for 20 years. i believed it 100% and could quote verses I felt that taught it with the best of them
I was a huge prophecy buff and spent endless time reading the scriptures and even listening to Jack and Hal and other pre trib teachers. No one could convince me that it was wrong. i was thoroughly convicted that the bible taught it.
The 2-stage secret rapture is indeed a lie. The disciples did ask where the ones gathered will go:
"I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left." And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Luke 17:34-37
Jesus WILL come, on the last day. Not in 2 stages. There will be no do-overs. No 2nd chances.
@bibleortraditions I take it you don't plan on getting any rewards? That's a shame. Christ brings NO rewards WITH Him at His 2nd Coming! Only the sharp sword (His Word that comes out of His mouth) to KILL all those who HATE Him, then He calls the carrion birds to feast on their dead bodies. You had better read Revelation 19. Jesus has NO Crowns when He opens the Seals to His Judgments & Wrath. Rev. 5:6-7. In Rev 19:11-12 He's wearing MANY Crowns. I'm going to watch His Coronation, you won't
@JesusHoldMyHand1 - I am not concerned about rewards at all. I've done nothing. Give me a cardboard box to live in and a bowl of rice. All I want desperately is to sit at the feet of our LORD and listen to Him speak.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 - There will be a rapture, if that's what you want to call it. I like calling it what the Bible calls it, "Christ's coming again" There is no 2-stage, furtive, church diappearing rapture. It goes against what the Bible clearly teaches. When I say I've done nothing, neither have you. Isaiah says, all our good works are as filthy rags in the sight of GOD. I would also rethink your channel icon. Do you think you're Christ, or do not believe the commandment about graven images?
@bibleortraditions That's fine with me. If you don't believe God's Word, do NOTHING (you're word) for Him, then we won't be seeing you then. Maybe you'll be alive at the end, so He can send His Angels to "gather" you. You will NEVER meet Him in the air. If you're killed during the GT, then you'll be Resurrected only, you'll NEVER meet Christ in the air. Revelation 20:4-6. I'm going to watch the Coronation of the King of kings, sorry that you're going to miss it. MARANATHA
"The dead in Christ shall rise first and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air."Those who die for Christ in the tribulation, are part of the dead in Christ.
@Myhopeisinhim Then tell me why the Dead who died during the Great Tribulation (Starting in Revelation 6 when Jesus opens the 1st Seal of His Judgments) are only "resurrected" (brought back to life) & they NEVER "meet Christ in the air"? Revelation 20:4-6. You need to really read the Bible and quit listening to and watching false tapes/teachers. Check out Seal #5. Those who are already murdered by then are told they have to WAIT until more are murdered.
@shyannbaby1 Don't HOPE...Believe. Read 1Peter 5:4 - "When the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive a Crown of Glory..." "...and I will give you the Crown of Life." Revelation 2:10 - "...I am coming soon and my reward is WITH Me...." Revelation 22:12 Jesus is speaking in the last 2 verses I just gave you. When He comes at the 2nd Coming, He has NO Crowns with Him. He has a "sharp sword", this Word, to KILL all those who hate Him. They try to kill Him - Revelation 17:14 - stay FAITHFUL!
Check out MidnightWatcher's Blogspot and read through a few of the articles in the "Theology and Eschatology" section, particularly the "Not Appointed Unto Wrath" and "The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church" articles. I challenge anyone to refute them.
@shyannbaby1 The Pre-Trib Rapture is True. Christ loves His Believers, His Church. That's why He tells the different kinds of Believers in Revelation 2 & 3 to repent of their sins, and leave them. He warns them, said He's coming as a thief (Revelation 3:3), meaning there's no warning. In Revelation 3:10 He tell those Believers they will NOT go through the Great Tribulation. Why? Because they are FAITHFUL (Revelation 17:14) to Him. He takes us home (John 14:1-3) & we'll be safe with Him.
In Revelation 20:4-6 the people that are killed during the Great Tribulation (starting at Revelation 6) are "resurrected", they are NEVER Raptured. They NEVER "meet Christ in the air". "When the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive a Crown of Glory..." 1Peter 5:4 The 24 elders HAVE their Crowns & we get our when they get theirs. Why are the people in Revelation 3:10 going to be kept from (or out of) the Great Tribulation. "Hour" does not mean 60 minutes - it means a "length of time".
The pope is the anti christ the lord Jesus warned us about. The pope changed the sabbath day to a pagan day sunday which is dedicated to satan and sun worship.The pope gave the orders to torture millions of christians in the dark ages this is also a fullfilment of bible prophecy as anti christ. The pope called himself jesus's equal fullfiling the blasphemy of the anti christ. The pope came to power after romes fall and is still here today to fullfil Revelation 13 , he is 2thess2:4
'When the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive a Crown of Glory...." 1Peter 5:4 The 24 elders in Revelation 4:1-5 HAVE their Crowns. We all get them at the same time. I can guarantee you, that when Jesus comes at His 2nd Coming, He will NOT be the Chief Shepherd!! They try to make war with Him. He will be their JUDGE & EXECUTIONER. He SLAYS them....KILLS them. The Wedding Ceremony & Supper take place IN HEAVEN - BEFORE we return WITH Christ. Rev. 19:7-10 We are HIS army...PTL
"And when the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive the Crown of Glory that will never fade away." 1Peter 5:4 The elders in Rev. 4:1-5 HAVE their Crowns. When they get their Crowns, everyone else get theirs'. When Jesus comes at His 2nd Coming, He will NOT be coming as the Chief Shepherd, He will be the JUDGE & EXECUTIONER of His enemies. They even try to kill Him, blow Him out of the sky. They'll get the just & true punishment they deserve, I would say.....Lake of Fire
Jesus comes a thief in the night (quickly, suddenly, quietly) VS Jesus comes in Great Power & Glory & EVERY eye will see Him...Jesus comes when we LEAST expect Him (eating & drinking; marrying & giving in marriage; buying & selling; planting & building) VS nuclear war, all mountains/islands disappear, boils from the sun, massive earthquakes/starvation, oceans turn to blood/everything dies, all greenery burned, plagues, 100# hailstones, satanic madmen cutting people's heads off....
People who think God is egotistical & full of Himself; think... humor me & lets just imagine ur god & u create something, wldn't u want them 2 at least acknowledge that they were made by u & w/o u they're nothing, literally? Wldn't u want that from ur creations? I know parents want their children 2 know that they came from them, it's a universal fact. Y wldn't we expect the same from God? Christ isn't abt guilt He's abt humility. God is the start of wisdom Christ is the understanding of that.
The bible says we are appointed to tribulation because of our belief in Him. We are not appointed to wrath however the 7 year tribulation isn't wrath its tribulation. And there is something that mus take place before Christ comes back, the revealing of the son of perdition (2 Thes) In order to believe pretrib. you have to assume that Christ comes twice. If you read your bible you know He doesn't come twice. We meet Him in the air on His way here to Judge the Earth and all who dwell therein.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 You won't change my mind on a post tribulation rapture. The bible is what convinced me. I just didn't have any preconceptions on the event. There is a rapture but only because God says we are not appointed to wrath. However the great tribulation isn't Gods wrath and no where in the bible does it say or even imply that it is. It is our great temptation and fight with the devil in these bodies. A true chance to show others we'll die for our faith. Why would God spare the flesh?
@uppercutter21 That's fine. There will be many people who will go through the Great Tribulation with you. God's Word to you means nothing.....Good Luck
@JesusHoldMyHand1 God's word to me means more then you'll ever know. Don't judge least ye be Judge. Great way to treat fellow believers in Christ. What example are you setting here? Do you honestly think God will spare your flesh against the tribulations from the anti christ? If you do then I can assure you that you're wrong. God bless and remember to do all things in love.
@uppercutter21 Why do you think God is so DISPLEASED with you that you need to go through the Great Tribribulation? What kind of sin are you living in? You never repent? The Great Tribulation is for those who REFUSE to live For God or are not living in a way that He commanded us to live. You sound like you're one of the 5 foolish "virgins" in Matthew 25:1-13; you're not going to be "ready" or "watching" for the Lord & that door will be slammed in your face. 5 are Christ's Bride - 5 are NOT
@uppercutter21 I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. You are the one that has to live with your own decisions. I'm simply pointing out that since you are living in sin, that is why you're going to go through the Great Tribulation. I sincerely wish you much luck, because those 7 years are going to be the most brutal, horrific, muderous 7 years in Human History. So many could have avoided it, if they only Believed in & Accepted Jesus Christ & repented from their sins.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Woah hold up. Don't ever tell a stranger online they're living in sin just because your beliefs are only 99% similar. Is Christ Lord? Yes. Will there be a rapture? Yes. We both agree on that, but because our timing on the rapture doesn't intertwine I'm now living a life of sin. It's one thing to say that to a non believer, it's a sin to say that do a brother/sister in Christ because it means I've rejected the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin. 7 yr trib. isn't God's wrath.
@uppercutter21 Well, according to you, you are going through the Great Tribulation, so that means you HAVE to be living in sin when the Rapture happens, because Jesus' "called, chosen & FAITHFUL" (who were Raptured) come back WITH Him. Rev 17:14 Make up your mind. You are either FAITHFUL to the Lord & are taken Home by Him, or you're living in sin & will be left down here to REPENT. Not all those millions x millions that no man could count are new believers; they said they were Christians
@JesusHoldMyHand1 U don't think Matt. 24:15-31 is describing a rapture 4 the saints after the abomination of desolation? I've made up my mind & I'm assured of my salvation, neither have a bearing on if I claim the bible shows there's a post tribulation rapture & doesn't show a pre tribulation rapture. It almost sounds like ur offended. I knw that many who claim 2 b Christian aren't but its not 4 us 2 say who is or isn't especially among our brethren. Christ comes 4 us once & it's after the trib
@uppercutter21 I have said many, many times there will be MANY Saints & Elect that that WILL go through the Great Tribulation. There will be MILLIONS & MILLIONS of people in the GT that will ACCEPT Jesus Christ for the first time during that time. Being SAVED doesn't mean that you'll be in the RAPTURE!! I think the Scripture is very clear......those who are FAITHFUL at the time of the Rapture WILL be in it. Those saved Christians who are LIVING IN SIN will miss it....& they WILL know it
@JesusHoldMyHand1 If you believe like most pre tribulation believers do that the holy spirit is taken out of the way just before the great tribulation then how can there be believers in the great tribulation. In order for one to be a true believer in Christ they must have the holy spirit alive within them but according to pre tribulation believers the holy spirit is taken out of the way. The believers who will face the great tribulation are all of us, you and I. There is a pre wrath rapture.
@uppercutter21 When one accepts Christ as their Savior, His Spirit lives within us. His Holy Spirit will NEVER leave the Earth, until Jesus Christ rules & Reigns from Jerusalem. Everyone that is in the Rapture will Have the Holy Spirit within them AND they are living FAITHFULLY for the Lord. The reason so many Christians go through the Great Tribulation is because the are NOT Faithful to the Lord. Not everyone that has accepted Christ as their Savior is in the Rapture. They are still SAVED
@JesusHoldMyHand1 We'll c won't we. If I were u and I had a hope of a pre trib rapture (I did once) I'd still keep an eye out for the antichrist just in case I was wrong. His signs and wonders will deceive even the elect if possible. Teaching believers that they won't have to go through the great tribulation isn't a great way to prepare them for it if ur wrong. Wonder y there's an apostasy just before the reign of the antichrist? It's all those waiting for a rapture that never came.
@uppercutter21 The apostasy has been in full swing for 40+ years, have you missed it? Do you even know what the apostasy is? Hint: Prayer taken out of schools, no Bibles in schools, abortion (ripping apart little unborn babies), No more 10 Commandments, take Christ out of Christmas, Celebrating & Acceptance of Perversion (homosexuality), false prophets, false christs (Jim Jones & many others), preaching there is NO hell, No Judgment, No Lake of Fire, Rise in false religions, Exclude GOD......
@JesusHoldMyHand1 We are not appointed to wrath. God's wrath comes "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." -Matt. 24:29. If you keep reading Matt. 24:31 then describes the rapture. Matt. 24:15 describes the reign of the antichrist. It's very obvious to any bible reader Matt. 24:15-31 along with 2 Thes. 2:1-4 show a post tribulation rapture to be the truth clear as day. Just please read Matt 24:15-31 now & don't think about what your pastor or anyone else told you it means, ask Christ.
@uppercutter21 "...of him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH of the Lamb...the great day of THEIR WRATH has come..." Revelation 8:16-17; "...he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury...his WRATH.." Rev. 14:9-10; "...God's Wrath.." Rev. 14:19; "...God's Wrath.." Rev. 15:1; "...filled with the Wrath of God.." Rev. 15:7; "...God's Wrath.." Rev. 16:1; "...fury of His Wrath.." Rev. 16:19. What were you saying about Wrath? It's too bad you may go through the Great Tribulation.
@uppercutter21 You're going to be Raptured AFTER the 7th Trumpet of Judgment? During the earthquake or the great hailstorm?? Rev. 11:19 Jesus said we will NOT know when He's coming for us.....He told us to always be WATCHING because He's coming at time we when we DON'T expect Him. Count down those Trumpet Judgments, then you think you'll be going to Heaven? You're going to be in for a BIG suprise. There will be NO warning at the Rapture, just like Matthew 24:39.....NO WARNING
@JesusHoldMyHand1 We who are watching will know when He is approaching however no man knows the day or the hour, not Christ, not the angels, but only God. We can still see the changing of the seasons like a tree preparing for winter. According to 2 Thes. 2:1-5 we know that the rapture cannot occur until the great falling away comes first and the antichrist is revealed to the world, sitting on the throne in the holy land. The rapture can occur anytime after those 2 events have taken place.
@uppercutter21 If you see the antichrist, you MISSED Jesus Christ. Hold on to your head....run for your life.....PRAY, PRAY, PRAY......don't get the mark, his name or his number on your right hand or forehead.....do you know who the "restrainer" or the "one who holds him back" is??? Maybe you'll find out one of these days.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 The bible says in 2 Thes. 2:1-5 that we will see the antichrist revealed before the rapture. If you've been taught different then you need to read your bible and see what the word says. Many 'Christians' believe that nothing more needs to take place before the rapture (it can come anytime now) well 2 Thes. 2:1-5 show that just simply isn't the truth. The bible is where you need to get your information not preachers. If the two don't agree then the preachers are wrong.
@uppercutter21 It's very clear that YOU don't read far enough. Try 2Thessalonians 2:6-8 You keep stopping short. That's the trouble with people that don't read their Bible OR understand it.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 How would you know how much I read my bible or not? It's a sin for one believer to say such things like that to another. Those verses are very clear on what's going on and when. The abomination of desolation doesn't occur until halfway through the tribulation and we aren't gathered up with the Lord before it's revealed so plain as day there is no pre-tribulation rapture. God will not spare our flesh from tribulation. The rapture is just before God comes with His wrath.
What Jesus said in Matthew 24:31 when He will send out His angels who will gather his elect-church in the air it says from the four winds heaven that is the same thing Paul writes in 1 Thess 4:16-17 He speaks about the Jesus will decend and talks about arcangel which is type of the chief angels and also a trumpet and His saints being in the clouds in the air. 2 Thess 1:7 aboutHis return Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.Jesus and Paul are on the same page!
1Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The Rapture (has never been a secret). Jesus' Voice: Sounds like a TRUMPET Rev. 1:10 & Rev. 4:1 Rapture, no Judgments; 2nd Coming, Judgments - Rapture, Christ comes FOR His Church (Bride); 2nd Coming, Christ comes WITH His Church; Rapture = We watch the Coronation of Christ; 2nd Coming, Christ is wearing MANY Crowns; Bride in Heaven for Wedding Supper Rev. 19:7-10, then come back WITH Jesus Rev. 19:11-15; 24 elders in Rev. 4 = 12 Apostles & 12 Representatives of Israel
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Please tell me were in Rev 4 do you read anything about the rapture of the church there is no were in that passage taking of any rapture. Please use scripture that talks to us clear not Rev 4 which you must think that the apostle John represents the church no where does that passage teach any of that. Thats the problem with prerapture teachings most of it is not solid chapter and verse its all what men think and ideas.
Daniels prophesied 12:11 there will be 1290 days before the edict to kill all who do not have the mark. Then there will be 45 days of HELL ON EARTH until the Rapture (Rev 14:14). God’s wrath begins (Rev 14:17-19) in which believers will not partake in. Question; what is the Rapture? Answer: The Rapture is the Last Day Ark. God will protect us from the earth’s cleansing. God did not tell Noah to build two arks, one for when the rains started and one for when people could no longer tred water.
@BrotherRickG The Great Tribulation starts when Christ opens the 1st Seal. Seal #1 antichrist, followed by war, famine & death. Seal #5 has millions of Martyred Saints calling out for revenge against those who murdered them. They are told they have to "wait" until the number of their fellow servants & brothers are killed. Those who are killed during the Great Tribulation are never Raptured. They NEVER meet Christ "in the air". They are only "resurrected" Rev. 20:4-6. Rapture is Rev. 4:1-4
@JesusHoldMyHand1That interpretation is a tickling of one’s ear. It is the bad teaching found in 2 Thess 2:1-3. The Man of Lawlessness comes to fullness in Rev 13:11-14 which according to Dan 12:11-12 fits perfectly. Then there will be 45 days before the Harvest (1335th day). The Harvest is not a secret, only misunderstood. The pre-Trib sounds good, but will hurt many Saints when America (The Great Prostitute) falls and they are not Raptured which may be the event in 2 Thess 2:1-3.
@BrotherRickG Daniel 9:27 says he "signs" "confirms" "strengthens" a covenant (peace treaty) with Israel for 7 years. Through peace he destroys many. When Christ opens His 1st Seal, it is the antichrist - 1 crown, bow, white horse (Jesus Christ - many Crowns, Sword - His Spoken Word - White Horse) He's the false christ who brings with him war, famine & death. Revelation 13 is the MIDDLE of the Great Tribulation, when antichrist declares himself as god and sets up his ungodly image.
@JesusHoldMyHand1Hello, I have a few questions how can you say that those saints that are martyred in Rev 6 which are seen by John when the 5 seal is opened and are resurrected in Rev 20 are never raptured? Rev 20:5 says that they are part of the first resurrection which is the same as the rapture of the saints the bible only speaks of that there needs to be two resurrections the #1 for the saints and #2 those that died apart from Christ.
@TheDeepsea79 Please read Revelation 17:14 you will see that Christ's "called, chosen & FAITHFUL followers" return WITH Him. In order for us to return with Him at His 2nd Coming, we first had to go "to Him". The Rapture 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:50-54 & John 14:1-5 ARE the Rapture. The 24 elders have their Crowns; see when they got them: 1Peter 5:4. 12 of the 24 elders are the Apostles: Matthew 19:28; the Bride is with Christ in Heaven - Revelation 19:7-10 BEFORE 2nd Coming
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I agree that the saints that died in Christ are raised first and those who are alive and remain will be changed, but that all happends at the second coming of Jesus,read Hebrews 9:28 and see that all those who are waiting for Him He will appear a second time! There is not a third or forth coming as the prerapture teachings. The bible is clear on only a second coming.
@TheDeepsea79 Who are the 24 elders on the thrones? Matthew 19:28 the other 12 are the Representatives of Israel. How & when did they get their crowns?? James 1:12; 2Timothy 2:5; 2Timothy 4:8; 1Peter 5:4 Do you see the difference in: Jesus coming as a thief in the night (quietly, suddenly & quickly) vs Jesus returns in Great Power & Glory and EVERY eye shall see Him??? What does Rev. 3:10 mean?? Jesus' VOICE sounding like a TRUMPET: Revelation 1:10 & 4:1 Rapture Matthew 24:36-44
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Ok I can agree with you that the 24 elders represent the old and new covenant however they just represent the covenants but they are not the church-saints and that we can find in Rev 11:16-18 as they speak to the Lord and saying that He God should reward your prophets and the saints. And the apostle John never said that he saw himself as one of the 24 elders in fact he spoke to one of the elders.The bible is not clear on who they really are but they seem to be overseers.
@TheDeepsea79 You don't think any of the Apostles are Church Saints?? Do you know that many of the Prophets preached about the coming Messiah & many of them SAW Jesus? Do you understand when people are "elect"? We were "elect" according to God's foreknowledge. 1Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-5 & 1:11 People through all the centuries have come to Christ at different times in their lives; in their generations. Many are going to Accept Christ during the GT, to fulfill their "election".
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I never said that the apostles are not church saints lets be clear on what we say, what I am saying is that the 24 elders represent the old and new covenant. Let me show you please read Rev 7:9-17 and see that an apostle who is John speaks to one of the elders and ask about a great multitude and the elder response is clear and he says verse 14 These are the one that came out of the great tribulation. See there is a distinction between the multitude-saints and the elders.
@TheDeepsea79 Christ needs 2 Churches ON EARTH is because there was Rapture. The 2 Witnesses are the 2 NEW CHURCHES. LAMPSTANDS = Churches. The new converts are NEVER Raptured. They are "gathered" by Christ's Angels & those who died are ONLY "resurrected". None of them EVER meet Christ in the air. The NEVER get any Crowns, they MISSED the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Church, Born Again Believers, Saints, Holy Ones, Bride are IN Heaven from Rev 4 to 19 then we come back WITH Jesus.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Is the body of Christ divided thats what your saying that part of the church goes to be with Christ and the other part stays to suffer the tribulation. The bible says in EPHESIANS 4:4 There is one body-the church in other words any person who is a saint belongs to the body of Christ ! Understand there is no where in the bible stating that the saints of God can not suffer tribulation yes the church will be here on the earth.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 You have no bible saying that the chucrh of God can not suffer tribulation, please read Philp 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake! Lets read what Jesus says Matthew 5:10-12 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven. Verse 12 for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Yes even Jesus states that it is right to suffer for His sake !
@TheDeepsea79 What are you trying to tell me? You don't think ANY of God's Children or His Church EVER suffered any tribulation, trials or persecution?? In the Old Testament, most of the Prophets of God were murdered. Most of the Apostles were murdered. Whole Christian towns were murdered. Christians in Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, China, Indonesia, Africa, etc are being persecuted & murdered today, but that doesn't count????? What do you want, EVERYONE to be killed????
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Looks like to did not read what I wrote because I clearly told you to look at Matthew 5:12 where Jesus states that the Prophets were ´persecuted. What I am trying to tell you is that people that believe in the prerapture teachings say that the church will be raptured before the antichrist and the great tribulation, in other words that the church can not go through the persecution that teaching is false 100%
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Jesus cleary states in Mattew 24:22 Unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved but for the elect sake those days will be shortened. See Christ never promised an easy way out for the saints-church we know that He said But he who endures to the end shall be saved! See there is no bible text stating that the church will be raptured before any tribulation. Again I say Rev 4 is no such rapture show me what verse says that the church is being raptured.
@TheDeepsea79 You evidently don't know WHEN the elect are chosen. Maybe you should read 1Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-5 & Ephesians 1:11 We have been accepting Christ since the 1 Century, different years, different generations, at different times. Those "elect" will fulfil their "election" when they Accept Christ. Until then, just like the rest of the believers have, they have NOT fulfilled their election UNTIL they accpeted Christ. Now, you can go ahead and argue with GOD if you want to.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I have no problem with the elect in any matter but my point is that the elect are the body of Christ the church the bride, God is not snatching part of the church to heaven and leaving part to stay on earth.
ALL will be here thats what the bible says he that endures to the end wil be saved. No other way but stay true to God if we are alive in those days and we shall have the victory!
@TheDeepsea79 At the time of the Rapture, ALL FAITHFUL Believers of Jesus Christ, His Bride, His Church goes WITH Him to His Father's House. That why the 2 Witnesses are the 2 NEW Churches, LAMPSTANDS from Rev. 1-3. Milllions come to Accept Christ AFTER the Rapture. Backsliders, those who ARE living in sin at the time of the Rapture, have NOT repented of their sins. They will during the Great Tribulation, but until then, they are doing things that God does NOT approve of. They are NOT the Bride
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Ok we do not agree on some of the bible verses but over all we agree that Christ is coming back for His church one day. While You believe prerapture I believe that Christ will return some time before the end of the tribulation. Explain where do get this teaching about the 2 witnesses being the new church.
@TheDeepsea79 You have to Revelation 1-3, like I said. Christ is standing among the 7 Lampstands & explains they are the 7 Churches. Those Churches represent every kind of Believer there was then & now. That's why reading the Letters are so important. The 2 Witnesses in Rev. 11 are 2 Lampstands. Christ promised that He would always have a witness on Earth to preach the Gospel. After the 2 Witnesses are murdered & ascend into Heaven, the Angel flies above the Earth to preach the Gospel.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I never saw it like that. The good news must always be preached here on Earth. Even when all us believers are gone, the testimony of Yahweh will continue to be heard by those who don't believe. I know why too. So when sinners finally get to see their 'God' (that they always needed to see in order to believe). They will know that they'll have no excuse. "I never saw You", they'll think to say." Then they'll remember, "but I did hear You." It's not guilt He wants, it's humility!
@uppercutter21 God's Word is very clear to those who read it, think about it, then read it again. Just like Jesus' Voice sounding like a Trumpet. Rev. 1:10; 4:1. In the Rapture the "Trump of God", "Trumpet Call of God" is Jesus Calling us Home. Too many people jump around with a verse here & a verse there, and trying to explain sequences is very hard at times. Trying to explain Physics 501 when they never took Physics 101. You are correct. Kinda hard to say "But Lord, I didn't know."
@TheDeepsea79 Jesus and all the Disciples constantly said "Repent", which means to turn away from your sin. When the Rapture happens, many who call themselves "Christians" are going to be involved in: live-in partners, abortion, adultry, homosexuality, pediphelia, inscest, rape, murder, lying, stealing, abusive to children, spouse, parents, no respect for authority, greed, crime in general, arson, involved in "fake" religions, bowing before statues, praying to dead people, denying Christ....
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Lets see if there really is a diffrence of Jesus coming and Jesus return what does the bible say! First you said that His coming is like a thief in the night but you need to read 1 Thess 5:1-4 Paul states that we are not in darkness that day should over take us, in other words His coming is like a thief in the night to those who are not waiting for Him but for the saint no so for we are children of the Liight His coming will not be as a thief in the night.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 There is no chapter where in Rev 4 to say that is a rapture of the church thats just a guess of yours because the bible is clear that the saints of God will be here when antichrist is on earth. And no they are not luke warm trib saints like some say thats just men made up ideas.
@TheDeepsea79 Have you read Revelation 1 yet? The Churches are 7 Lampstands. Chapters 2-3 are very important letters to those 7 Churches. In Revelation 11 there are 2 NEW LAMPSTANDS because the 7 are GONE. Since you're not very interested in what Christ said, taught & is going to do, then I'll just let learn & be taught whatever you want. Peace to You and Good Luck
@TheDeepsea79 The ONLY people Raptured AFTER Revelation 4 are the 2 Witnesses (Elijah & Moses or Elijah & Enoch) in Revelation 11. The 144,000 Jewish Pastors are Raptured in Revelation 14. That's it. No more. The Tribulation Saints are NOT Raptured. They do NOT meet Christ in the air or go to HEAVEN. They are "resurrected" (new bodies) AFTER Christ comes back WITH His FAITHFUL followers!!!! The 2 Witnesses go to Heaven in front of their enemies. Jesus takes the 144,000 to Heaven.
@TheDeepsea79 I know you are having trouble with the term the "first resurrection" so I will ask you: Was Jesus' Resurrection the first? how about Lazarus? and then there's the disciples who raised the dead, were they the first? Matthew 10:5-8 Peter raised Tabitha (Dorcas) from the dead. Acts 9:36-43 (especially v40-43). Of that group ONLY Jesus ascended into Heaven - Acts 1:9 and a cloud hid him just like it will in the Rapture. I wish you much luck in your quest for the Truth. MARANATHA
@TheDeepsea79 The ONLY people that are going to ascend into Heaven are the 144,000 in Rev. 14 & the 2 Witnesses in Rev. 11. The 2 Witnesses are killed, and after 3 days God Raises them from the dead, & tells them to "Come up Here" just like in Rev. 4:1. No one else goes to Heaven after these 144,002. Do you know why the 2 Witnesses are called "Lampstands". The Lampstands represent the Churchs & they are GONE. Now 2 more Churches are being planted by Elijah & Moses or Elijah & Enoch.
@TheDeepsea79 That 1st Resurrection is of the DEAD Tribulation Saints ONLY. They are NEVER Raptured, their bodies NEVER go to Heaven or Meet Christ in the air. They are the 1st Ones Resurrected AFTER Christ returns. They go WITH us & Christ into HIS Kingdom to rule & reign with Him. The next resurrection is of the Dead (most go into the Lake of Fire). When Christ returns WITH us He sends out His Angels to "gather" those who made it through the GT ALIVE. Mark 13:26-27; Matthew 25:31-46
@JesusHoldMyHand1 But why would you say that the first resurrection is of the dead trubulation saints only? No where does the bible teach that there will be more then just 2 resurrections number one the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that is same as the ressurection of the saints, the dead in Christ are raised first that is the 1st resurrection Apart from the resurrection of the unbeliever there are no scriptures that teach us of 3 or 4 resurrections of the saints. Please use scriptureonly
@TheDeepsea79 "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..." Rev 5:6 No crowns for that Lamb. Jesus returns wearing MANY Crowns. Rev 19:11-12. Between Revelation 5 &19 ALL the Raptured Old Testament & New Testament Saints are going to watch the Coronation of Jesus Christ, The King of the Jews, The Messiah of Israel, The Savior of the World receive His Majestic, Glorious Crowns. This event will be attended by ALL who are FAITHFUL to the Lord. Rev 17:14 HE DIED FOR US!!!!!!
@Trilimionity YOU ARE GOAT & TEAR. YOU SPIRITUALLY DEFT, DUMB, AND BLIND AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SPIRITUAL GIFTS NEITHER ANY ANOINTING. I WILL NOT TROW MY PEARLS TO THE SWINES. I REST MY CASE.
If there was no such thing as preparation prior to an earthly tribulation, then Jesus' warning to his church, in the first 3 chapters of Revelations would be useless... The church as a whole is in bad shape..For instance, instead of concentrating efforts on lost souls, Christians are in debate with one another over doctrinal issues. The Lord is very much aware of those believers who are 'lukewarm" and are not spirit -filled..These Christians will not be ready, and will suffer greatly...
For any pre-tribulation believer, I would like to ask some questions 1) Do you have to be dead to be resurrected ? 2) When are dead in Christ raised ? 3) when do we appear before Jesus without sin ? 4) Would you please use three verses of the scriptures?
Many thanks, Mr Perry, for offering even more scriptures proving the post trib rapture. But it is a great pity that such should be necessary. the crystal clear plain wording of Matt 24 is that AFTER the trib Christ will gather his elect. But they flatly refuse to entertain the notion that the church will suffer. to them a Bride is a prima donna who could not even bear to have a finger nail broken.
thanks again for confirming my rejection of the pre trib rapture which i did many years ago
People always call it the 'secret' rapture, as if trying to discredit it.. 'Rapture' is a modern term for the 'catching away'. Hardly going to be a SECRET when millions of people vanish is it?.
oh? that idiot's guide for the Last Days was written by you? I nearly bought it! It was in my shopping cart but after I heard that it was based on the false doctrine that the Rapture is post-trib, I removed it from my cart!!
@receivejesusnow Tribulation starting is destroying the old, so Jesus can't come back till that is complete... You can't restore that which is still intact, it has to be destroyed first, so your half right !!! study it...don't just read it !!! 1 John 4:16.
Hebrew chapter 8,9,10 speak plainly of the described Covenant Yeshua would fulfill with his followers. Mark 1:15 he refered to the only passage possible (time is now fulfilled) of Daniel 9:27 where Daniel mentioned the covenant with many (Heb 8:8-10; Matt 26:28) that transended the temple animal sacrifices and Mosaic Oblations also mentioned. See Heb 8:13.
This title is inaccurate. The pretrib rapture is not a secret. It will occur and it it has been made widely known. References have been given. No secret at all. Just because some don't understand or wish to acknowledge pretrib rapture does not make it a myth.
One MAJOR ERROR amongst many christians is this, the idea that Jesus Chrsit is going to "Rapture the church. He is going to gather his elect, his chossen ones. The Gospel of LUKE tells us this... [34] I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. [35] Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
The Rapture is true, here are just a few verses that show that fact. Rom 8:16-25; Rom 14:10-12; 1 Cor 3:13-15, 4:5, 7:29-31, 15:22-23; 2 Cor 4:14, 5:1-5,10; Eph 4:30, 5:27; Phil 1:6,10, 2:16, 3:9-11; Col 3:4; 1 Thess 1:10, 2:19-20, 3:12-13, 5:9, 5:23; 1 Tim 6:14-15; 2 Tim 1:12, 4:8; Titus 2:13; Heb 10:25,37, 11:35; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:5,7,13, 4:7, 5:4; 2 Peter 1:11; 1 John 2:28, 3:2-3; 2 John 1:8; Rev 4:1-11, 5:1-14, 22:12. 1 Thess 4:13-18, Believers taken first, unbelievers are left behind
What a hypocrite he says read the bible dont listen to mens teaching$ while he sells hi$ book$. Sounds like ther i$ Money to be made in writing false PO$T Trib book$ These are his books, what a sick commercial, thats all this video is a commercial.
I just hate the word "rapture". But God bless you for making this video. A lot of misled Christians are going to be shocked when they are realize that they are still on earth with everyone else during the tribulation.
Kallenfranchise the gathering of the saints will take place, the catching away
of the church will take place before the tribulation. Paul made this clear to the saints, in II Thessalonians 2: Paul had to calm the saints down because they thought the day of the Lord had begun because of a counterfeit letter sent to them. They thought they were in the tribulation period, if they were POST trib they'd been happy but they were unsettled, upset because they thought they missed the "catching away"
Context of course context because it is king when reading the passages from beginning to end how do you think I catch mormons, muslims, and others in there lies by using the whole word of God, doing a word study on a word and how it is used thru out the Bible and reading.
The words you use are so Christ like, now I know I got too you and your ready to pop, its ok I forgive you really, just continue to read the scriptures.
Are you sure you understand or do you ignore scripture completely to push your view thru read 2 Thess 1:1-12 the whole chapter clearly speaks of rest at the 2nd coming not at the rapture for the church and like all pretribers they ignore and push it to the side and point out John 14:2-3, Rev 3:10, Luke 21:36 as the rapture, all out of context...............or making assumptions...........
I am sooooo confused ! but like psxwarrior WHATever The Lord wants SO BE IT ! can someone JUST explain to another with maybe a timeline or something very simple to help us all to understand ? THIS Video does that but I suppose I need to read more....listen more....but want to say BLESSINGS TO US ALL & PLEASE RESIST ONE World DOMINATION , the New World Order ! WE ARE MEANT TO BE SOVEREIGN & FREE ! NOT RULED BY A CRIMINALLY INSANE WORLD GOVERNMENT ! these truly are the end times !
I was a Pre-Triber for the 1st 2 years of my Christian life. Then i read Dave McPhearson's book, "The Incredible Cover-Up". That was 33 years ago. I suggest those who are interested in this subjct to do the same
You all might enjoy Googling "The Newest Pretrib Calendar" and "Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum." Also Google the earlier written "Famous Rapture Watchers" and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty."
There is no secret rapture. Those who are left will be caught up when Yahshua returns (those who were 'taken' will be dead- destroyed in the vengeance of the Day of Yahweh. Notice too there is no passage that says anyone will be taken to heaven. When Yahshua returns He will regather the resurrected Israelites and those left alive (or changed) to set up the Kingdom- in Israel. They will be caught up with Him in the air and proceed to Israel, not 'heaven'. The millennial Kingdom will be in Israel.
Yes, there is: John 14 "In my Father's house are many mansions--I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." I am guessing that Jesus' Father is in heaven and that is where his house is!
When he comes back to stay (the second coming) he will set up his kingdom on earth, evil is removed. There will be natural people who have survived the tribulation and are believers (who will give birth, etc.) and there will be the glorified believers who returned with him. Marry John 14 with these events and you must correctly infer that they are TWO events, the first, the righteous are removed, the second, the evil are removed.!
Don't listen to them meggy. Jesus said "I go to prepare a place." He's preparing it right now, and that means it's not on earth. We go to the ple\ace He has prepared for us at the Rapture for 7 years, and then we come back with Him for the marriage supper. Just as Jewish bridegrooms always take their Brides away to consummate the marriage for 7 days before they come back to the marriage feast the groom's father prepares. We'll come for the Supper of the Lamb and then rule and reign on earth!!!
So what do you do with 2 Thess 1:1-12 Paul tells the church to endure thru persecution, tribulation and rest will occur at the 2nd coming..............
The Great Tribulation is a specific event and is the judgment of God. General tribulation is not a specific event and is not the judgment of God. We go through tribulation, not the Great Tribulation b/c God cannot judge the righteous along with the wicked.
Also, you added the word "Second" to those verses because you know as well as I do that the use of "Second Coming" denotes the coming at the end of the Great Trib and it suited your purposes to add that interpretation. Don't add to the Word.
I just sent you a break down of 2 Thess 1:1-12 as well you can look at any commentary and it will tell you that the 2nd coming is connected and spoken of in 2 Thess 1:1-12 and that will show that there can be "no" rapture of the church before the tribulation but after when Jesus Christ comes again, if you like you can ask that question to Richard Perry He'll tell you the same thing.......
You drank the theological kool-aid and I'm not interested in fighting about it with you. The Rapture pattern is presented in no less than 10 Old Testament stories (Enoch, Noah, Lot, Rahab, Rachel, Rebekah, Ruth, David, the Jewish Wedding, Joseph). It is also clearly articulated in the NT. Rev 4:1, just as an example. Bye.
One question you brought up the jewish wedding festivel and all etc, Jesus Christ never taught that in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Rev 4:1
The person spoken too is John the Apostle for John had visions in the book of revelation going up and down and if you say it is the church its is going up and down thru visions in the book of Revelation, how sad you ignore scripture in context and your like every pre triber pulling scripture outcontext.....
He compared it to a wedding about a million times. In John 14:2,3 He said exactly what bridegrooms always say to their Brides before they go to away to prepare a place for them. At the Rapture He comes and gets us and takes the Church to the prepared place. At the Second Coming He comes back with the Church. There is no going to the prepared place at that point. He sets up His kingdom on earth. So obviously the Second Coming is not the subject of John 14:2,3.
2 In My Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
"There is no hint of a rapture before the tribulation found in v. 2-3 so again its an assumption like a pre tribers do
and again Jesus Christ never mentioned a rapture for the church or Him coming before the
He said He was going to prepare a place and that He would come back, get us, and take us there. That is no assumption, Madam. That's what He said. There is no taking to Heaven that occurs to the Second Coming. Instead, He is coming to earth. Get a clue.
And how does these verse John 14:2-3 tie with the rapture and tribulation there is no connection, I can say the same thing, we must read the whole word of God and not pull out a passage to assume it means something you want it to mean when it doesn't, if you say rapture then that would contradict 2 Thess 1:1-12. the whole chapter from beginning to end.
there is no taking to heaven. period, rogueoftroy.. if you notice, he says "I WILL COME.." that is his return. but after he returns it is not mentioned that he goes back to heaven with us. actually that place that is being prepared actually comes to us here on the new earth after the 1000years in rev21 where it actually says the same thing about being with us. rev21v3 says "..he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and god will be with them as their god."
lol i noticed that im not the only person you quit on. you did it also with xena1973. if you can't back your beleif up with me or anyone else stop getting on here just to quit lol. bye
You both would argue until I die of old age even after all the proof I've offered you both as to the reality of the Rapture. I don't mind discussing the matter with people who want to learn and actually listen to what I say. But yes...once you prove that you just like to argue and will not relent even after you are shown why you are wrong, I am likely to stop wasting my time on you. You are stupid and belligerent and an egomaniac. And you keep trying to start ta
this could possibly lead to a falling away should it not happen...i do hope people are prepared.
Myhopeisinhim 4 days ago
we are all at different levels of our faith. The weak restrict the foods they eat and what days they keep. Those whose faith is strong believe they can eat anything.
I think this is a case like that..typically those who believe in pre-trib comment that it would be more than anyone can handle. Some have anyway.
Myhopeisinhim 4 days ago
I think this situation is much like when paul talks about not judging those in meat or drink or in respect of an holy day..one thinks one day is holy another thinks all days are.
Some think you can eat everything, some don't. What matters is the cross. If the pre-trib doesn't happen, they'll need the help of those whose faith is still strong.
Myhopeisinhim 4 days ago
its not a salvation issue and we shouldn't make it such. Just be aware that our faith and hope should be in christ and not when the rapture is...incase it doesn't happen.
Too much stock in pre-trib could cause a falling away should it not happen.
Myhopeisinhim 4 days ago
what identifies us as children of God? Is it when we believe the rapture is and our personal thoughts on prophecy?
Or is it the Holy Spirit dwelling in you that declares you've been bought with a price, securing you as a child of God, heir to the promises of God whenever they should come?
When he comes, all those in christ will go.
Myhopeisinhim 4 days ago
Please know I mean no offense. I speak from having been there and what i realized of myself.
Id read the verse but it was like i'd overlook the rest. Almost like blinders. Then one day i saw the verse in full and did a double take. When we see thief even in matthew its a ref to same time. If you don't want to keep chatting feel free to stop responding and I will to.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
2 Peter 3:10 states that the day of the Lord will occur like a thief in the night and alongside of it the elements melting in fervent heat, etc.
When this verse is read in its entirety you can tell its not speaking of a pre-trib thief in the night scenerio but his return at the end which is the day of the Lord. We can't ignore the rest of the verse which I did for so long without even realizing it. Nearly all pre-tribbers do.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
thus I know that nothing I say would convince you either. Only the bible and his Spirit have that power.
As for the resurrected. Why do you think they don't meet him in the air? No where in revelations is it mentioned not even when speaking to the church does that mean there is no meeting since its not there either?
Of course not. If you are resurrected, you do meet him in the air. Take the verse I mentioned in my earlier post.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
@Myhopeisinhim RESURRECTED does NOT mean to "meet Christ in the air". Where did you learn that nonsense? It means they are "raised from the dead" - like Lazarus, Jesus Christ, and the many that were resurrected Christ died. The 2 Witnesses in Revelation 11 are "resurrected" & ascend to Heaven in front of their enemies - hence "Raptured". I think you are right, though, you will be down here to help those left behind, since you think you should be persecuted. No Crown for YOu!
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 weeks ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
The dead who die because they refuse to worship the beast and follow Jesus to their death, are they dead in Christ or no? The bible tells us...that the dead in Christ will rise first and then we which are alive and remains hall meet them in the air. You have yet to show me how those in the tribulation are separate from this phrase.
Of course not all resurrected will meet him in the air, the ones who are the wicked dead won't.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
It's not about thinking I should be persecuted. I'd love nothing more than to escape in a pre-trib rapture. That is the best tickle the ear doctrine out there...It's not about wanting to, it's about Jesus saying you will be:
Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
more...
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
We're told bluntly that we will be persecuted, and that we will face tribulation but be of good cheer I have overcome the world. I know this is not something you like to consider, but I do pray that if you find yourself in the tribulation that your faith will not be shaken.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
Curious, when do you believe the resurrection of the two witnesses happen?
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
@Myhopeisinhim Those are CHRISTIANS who are DEAD ..... you just don't get it, do you? I don't respond to anyone's "BOOK" that they post to me. You are being unchristian when you don't even read the Scriptures I give you. You are preaching phony doctrine and for that you will reap what you sow. No wonder the Lord Himself couldn't reach so many .... you are one of them ... a denier and now you're turning into a Charlatan .... You, my friend, are deaf, blind - so long.
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 weeks ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
Why are you assuming I'm not reading the verses you give? Is it because I'm not turning to your way of thinking?
Please remember, we both love the Lord and are looking forward to his glorious appearing. What we believe about this doesn't determine our salvation, let's keep friendly, no need to make rude comments. Let's use this as a bible study instead okay?
You are trying to study scripture, and so am I:)
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
@Myhopeisinhim You've got a long way to do to catch up. No, not because of my way of thinking, but because are completely DENYING the Word of God. Like I said, a lot of Christians are going to be left down here - they're NOT in the Rapture & you are probably going to be one of them. So why do you keep posting to me? You're wrong, so I have nothing further to say to you. I'm confident My Lord is coming for us BEFORE His Judgments & Wrath & you want to argue. So stay down here.
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 weeks ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
I'm not denying the word of God, although I do admit I disagree with your interpretation of it as you do of mine. Just one more post and I'll allow us to part at an impasse.
Do you recall how the term "thief in the night" is used of the pre-trib rapture because its believed that it couldn't possibly mean his return at the end because everyone would know when his return was then, right at the end of the seven years, etc....
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
I was completely surprised to read 2 Peter 3:10:
But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment
I had read this verse over and over before but never took to heart the implications of it when thinking about the rapture.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
The day of the Lord, his return at the end of the tribulation, occurs like a thief in the night. To learn that this phrase related to that day and not a pre-trib rapture took me by surprise. That was the start of my journey, but no means the end of it. I pray that you will take a good hard look at this verse and lay aside all preconceived ideas and search the scriptures fully for the answers.
May God bless you on your journey..I look forward to seeing you in the sky:)
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
@Myhopeisinhim Jesus Comes as a "thief in the night" to His Church ..... He will catch millions upon millions of them sinning; therefore He leaves them behind. Revelation 3:3 Over and over He uses a "thief" as an example to "be ready" for the Rapture: Matthew 24:42-44; 25:1-13; Luke 12:35-48; 1Thessalonians 5:1-2; Revelation 16:15; 22:12. "Suddenly, Quckly, Quietly" - "No Warning". These Verses are to His Believers, His Church, His Choosen, to ALWAYS Be Ready, Living FOR Him
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 weeks ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Are you still lying to people with your stupid secret quiet pre-trib confused belief? What a shame.
NickelsBuckingBulls 1 week ago
@NickelsBuckingBulls The Rapture isn't stupid or a secret. You just won't be incuded. MARANATHA
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 week ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 You won't be included in a pre-trib "rapture" because there is NOT going to be one.
NickelsBuckingBulls 1 week ago
@NickelsBuckingBulls Like I said, don't be so concerned about the Rapture. You probably won't be included.
JesusHoldMyHand1 1 week ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I can not wait to see you with your lunch pail waiting for a pre-trib rapture while the trib is going on saying what happened. Have a great falling away(brought to you by raymond1967)
NickelsBuckingBulls 1 week ago
oops typo: remains hall = remain shall
About crowns: Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life
We're also told that if we're persecuted for righteousness sake great will be our reward in heaven. I'm quoting the bible here..I'm not a fan of being persecuted, but with his...
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
strength we can endure. And we have a hope, his glorious return.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
did that convince me at that moment that pre-trib may not be accurate, not really. i still believed it, but i decided that I needed to do more research and let the scriptures and his Spirit reveal to me what he wanted me to know.
I set aside preconcieved notions and started from scratch so to speak. It took a while before my mind was really changed but after a good hard look, I had no choice but to lay down the teaching of pre-trib.
No man could convince me, only the scriptures did.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
It wasn't until I had my world rocked by a verse that I read countless times before but never realized the implication of the latter half of the verse. we often quoted 2 Peter 3:10's phrase, thief in the night and associate it with a pre-trib rapture because after all how could his return at the end be like a thief as we all know it happens at the end etc.
When I read that the term referred to the day of the Lord and what happened on that day, i knew it wasn't referring to a pre-trib.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
@jesusholdmyhand1
I feel I should share some about myself so you know where I'm coming from if I haven't already. i believed in a pre-trib rapture for 20 years. i believed it 100% and could quote verses I felt that taught it with the best of them
I was a huge prophecy buff and spent endless time reading the scriptures and even listening to Jack and Hal and other pre trib teachers. No one could convince me that it was wrong. i was thoroughly convicted that the bible taught it.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
The 2-stage secret rapture is indeed a lie. The disciples did ask where the ones gathered will go:
"I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left." And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." Luke 17:34-37
Jesus WILL come, on the last day. Not in 2 stages. There will be no do-overs. No 2nd chances.
bibleortraditions 2 months ago
@bibleortraditions I take it you don't plan on getting any rewards? That's a shame. Christ brings NO rewards WITH Him at His 2nd Coming! Only the sharp sword (His Word that comes out of His mouth) to KILL all those who HATE Him, then He calls the carrion birds to feast on their dead bodies. You had better read Revelation 19. Jesus has NO Crowns when He opens the Seals to His Judgments & Wrath. Rev. 5:6-7. In Rev 19:11-12 He's wearing MANY Crowns. I'm going to watch His Coronation, you won't
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 - I am not concerned about rewards at all. I've done nothing. Give me a cardboard box to live in and a bowl of rice. All I want desperately is to sit at the feet of our LORD and listen to Him speak.
bibleortraditions 2 months ago
@bibleortraditions Then, since you've done nothing for Christ, then I can understand why you're not going to be in the Rapture. I'll pray for you.
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 - There will be a rapture, if that's what you want to call it. I like calling it what the Bible calls it, "Christ's coming again" There is no 2-stage, furtive, church diappearing rapture. It goes against what the Bible clearly teaches. When I say I've done nothing, neither have you. Isaiah says, all our good works are as filthy rags in the sight of GOD. I would also rethink your channel icon. Do you think you're Christ, or do not believe the commandment about graven images?
bibleortraditions 2 months ago
@bibleortraditions That's fine with me. If you don't believe God's Word, do NOTHING (you're word) for Him, then we won't be seeing you then. Maybe you'll be alive at the end, so He can send His Angels to "gather" you. You will NEVER meet Him in the air. If you're killed during the GT, then you'll be Resurrected only, you'll NEVER meet Christ in the air. Revelation 20:4-6. I'm going to watch the Coronation of the King of kings, sorry that you're going to miss it. MARANATHA
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1
"The dead in Christ shall rise first and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air."Those who die for Christ in the tribulation, are part of the dead in Christ.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
@Myhopeisinhim Then tell me why the Dead who died during the Great Tribulation (Starting in Revelation 6 when Jesus opens the 1st Seal of His Judgments) are only "resurrected" (brought back to life) & they NEVER "meet Christ in the air"? Revelation 20:4-6. You need to really read the Bible and quit listening to and watching false tapes/teachers. Check out Seal #5. Those who are already murdered by then are told they have to WAIT until more are murdered.
JesusHoldMyHand1 2 weeks ago
@shyannbaby1 Don't HOPE...Believe. Read 1Peter 5:4 - "When the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive a Crown of Glory..." "...and I will give you the Crown of Life." Revelation 2:10 - "...I am coming soon and my reward is WITH Me...." Revelation 22:12 Jesus is speaking in the last 2 verses I just gave you. When He comes at the 2nd Coming, He has NO Crowns with Him. He has a "sharp sword", this Word, to KILL all those who hate Him. They try to kill Him - Revelation 17:14 - stay FAITHFUL!
JesusHoldMyHand1 3 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 After "sharp sword' I meant to say HIS WORD
JesusHoldMyHand1 3 months ago
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Check out MidnightWatcher's Blogspot and read through a few of the articles in the "Theology and Eschatology" section, particularly the "Not Appointed Unto Wrath" and "The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church" articles. I challenge anyone to refute them.
MidnightWatcher322 3 months ago
@shyannbaby1 The Pre-Trib Rapture is True. Christ loves His Believers, His Church. That's why He tells the different kinds of Believers in Revelation 2 & 3 to repent of their sins, and leave them. He warns them, said He's coming as a thief (Revelation 3:3), meaning there's no warning. In Revelation 3:10 He tell those Believers they will NOT go through the Great Tribulation. Why? Because they are FAITHFUL (Revelation 17:14) to Him. He takes us home (John 14:1-3) & we'll be safe with Him.
JesusHoldMyHand1 3 months ago
In Revelation 20:4-6 the people that are killed during the Great Tribulation (starting at Revelation 6) are "resurrected", they are NEVER Raptured. They NEVER "meet Christ in the air". "When the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive a Crown of Glory..." 1Peter 5:4 The 24 elders HAVE their Crowns & we get our when they get theirs. Why are the people in Revelation 3:10 going to be kept from (or out of) the Great Tribulation. "Hour" does not mean 60 minutes - it means a "length of time".
JesusHoldMyHand1 5 months ago
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The pope is the anti christ the lord Jesus warned us about. The pope changed the sabbath day to a pagan day sunday which is dedicated to satan and sun worship.The pope gave the orders to torture millions of christians in the dark ages this is also a fullfilment of bible prophecy as anti christ. The pope called himself jesus's equal fullfiling the blasphemy of the anti christ. The pope came to power after romes fall and is still here today to fullfil Revelation 13 , he is 2thess2:4
vladimirkovalski 5 months ago
'When the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive a Crown of Glory...." 1Peter 5:4 The 24 elders in Revelation 4:1-5 HAVE their Crowns. We all get them at the same time. I can guarantee you, that when Jesus comes at His 2nd Coming, He will NOT be the Chief Shepherd!! They try to make war with Him. He will be their JUDGE & EXECUTIONER. He SLAYS them....KILLS them. The Wedding Ceremony & Supper take place IN HEAVEN - BEFORE we return WITH Christ. Rev. 19:7-10 We are HIS army...PTL
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
"And when the Chief Shepherd APPEARS, you will receive the Crown of Glory that will never fade away." 1Peter 5:4 The elders in Rev. 4:1-5 HAVE their Crowns. When they get their Crowns, everyone else get theirs'. When Jesus comes at His 2nd Coming, He will NOT be coming as the Chief Shepherd, He will be the JUDGE & EXECUTIONER of His enemies. They even try to kill Him, blow Him out of the sky. They'll get the just & true punishment they deserve, I would say.....Lake of Fire
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
Jesus comes a thief in the night (quickly, suddenly, quietly) VS Jesus comes in Great Power & Glory & EVERY eye will see Him...Jesus comes when we LEAST expect Him (eating & drinking; marrying & giving in marriage; buying & selling; planting & building) VS nuclear war, all mountains/islands disappear, boils from the sun, massive earthquakes/starvation, oceans turn to blood/everything dies, all greenery burned, plagues, 100# hailstones, satanic madmen cutting people's heads off....
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
People who think God is egotistical & full of Himself; think... humor me & lets just imagine ur god & u create something, wldn't u want them 2 at least acknowledge that they were made by u & w/o u they're nothing, literally? Wldn't u want that from ur creations? I know parents want their children 2 know that they came from them, it's a universal fact. Y wldn't we expect the same from God? Christ isn't abt guilt He's abt humility. God is the start of wisdom Christ is the understanding of that.
uppercutter21 8 months ago
The bible says we are appointed to tribulation because of our belief in Him. We are not appointed to wrath however the 7 year tribulation isn't wrath its tribulation. And there is something that mus take place before Christ comes back, the revealing of the son of perdition (2 Thes) In order to believe pretrib. you have to assume that Christ comes twice. If you read your bible you know He doesn't come twice. We meet Him in the air on His way here to Judge the Earth and all who dwell therein.
uppercutter21 8 months ago
@uppercutter21 Jesus gave us 2 short parables about the Rapture. Please take a few minutes to read:
Matthew 25:1-13
Matthew 24:36-44
God Bless & MARANATHA
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 You won't change my mind on a post tribulation rapture. The bible is what convinced me. I just didn't have any preconceptions on the event. There is a rapture but only because God says we are not appointed to wrath. However the great tribulation isn't Gods wrath and no where in the bible does it say or even imply that it is. It is our great temptation and fight with the devil in these bodies. A true chance to show others we'll die for our faith. Why would God spare the flesh?
uppercutter21 7 months ago
@uppercutter21 That's fine. There will be many people who will go through the Great Tribulation with you. God's Word to you means nothing.....Good Luck
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 God's word to me means more then you'll ever know. Don't judge least ye be Judge. Great way to treat fellow believers in Christ. What example are you setting here? Do you honestly think God will spare your flesh against the tribulations from the anti christ? If you do then I can assure you that you're wrong. God bless and remember to do all things in love.
uppercutter21 7 months ago
@uppercutter21 Why do you think God is so DISPLEASED with you that you need to go through the Great Tribribulation? What kind of sin are you living in? You never repent? The Great Tribulation is for those who REFUSE to live For God or are not living in a way that He commanded us to live. You sound like you're one of the 5 foolish "virgins" in Matthew 25:1-13; you're not going to be "ready" or "watching" for the Lord & that door will be slammed in your face. 5 are Christ's Bride - 5 are NOT
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
@uppercutter21 I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. You are the one that has to live with your own decisions. I'm simply pointing out that since you are living in sin, that is why you're going to go through the Great Tribulation. I sincerely wish you much luck, because those 7 years are going to be the most brutal, horrific, muderous 7 years in Human History. So many could have avoided it, if they only Believed in & Accepted Jesus Christ & repented from their sins.
JesusHoldMyHand1 7 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Woah hold up. Don't ever tell a stranger online they're living in sin just because your beliefs are only 99% similar. Is Christ Lord? Yes. Will there be a rapture? Yes. We both agree on that, but because our timing on the rapture doesn't intertwine I'm now living a life of sin. It's one thing to say that to a non believer, it's a sin to say that do a brother/sister in Christ because it means I've rejected the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin. 7 yr trib. isn't God's wrath.
uppercutter21 7 months ago
@uppercutter21 Well, according to you, you are going through the Great Tribulation, so that means you HAVE to be living in sin when the Rapture happens, because Jesus' "called, chosen & FAITHFUL" (who were Raptured) come back WITH Him. Rev 17:14 Make up your mind. You are either FAITHFUL to the Lord & are taken Home by Him, or you're living in sin & will be left down here to REPENT. Not all those millions x millions that no man could count are new believers; they said they were Christians
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 U don't think Matt. 24:15-31 is describing a rapture 4 the saints after the abomination of desolation? I've made up my mind & I'm assured of my salvation, neither have a bearing on if I claim the bible shows there's a post tribulation rapture & doesn't show a pre tribulation rapture. It almost sounds like ur offended. I knw that many who claim 2 b Christian aren't but its not 4 us 2 say who is or isn't especially among our brethren. Christ comes 4 us once & it's after the trib
uppercutter21 6 months ago
@uppercutter21 I have said many, many times there will be MANY Saints & Elect that that WILL go through the Great Tribulation. There will be MILLIONS & MILLIONS of people in the GT that will ACCEPT Jesus Christ for the first time during that time. Being SAVED doesn't mean that you'll be in the RAPTURE!! I think the Scripture is very clear......those who are FAITHFUL at the time of the Rapture WILL be in it. Those saved Christians who are LIVING IN SIN will miss it....& they WILL know it
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 If you believe like most pre tribulation believers do that the holy spirit is taken out of the way just before the great tribulation then how can there be believers in the great tribulation. In order for one to be a true believer in Christ they must have the holy spirit alive within them but according to pre tribulation believers the holy spirit is taken out of the way. The believers who will face the great tribulation are all of us, you and I. There is a pre wrath rapture.
uppercutter21 6 months ago
@uppercutter21 When one accepts Christ as their Savior, His Spirit lives within us. His Holy Spirit will NEVER leave the Earth, until Jesus Christ rules & Reigns from Jerusalem. Everyone that is in the Rapture will Have the Holy Spirit within them AND they are living FAITHFULLY for the Lord. The reason so many Christians go through the Great Tribulation is because the are NOT Faithful to the Lord. Not everyone that has accepted Christ as their Savior is in the Rapture. They are still SAVED
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 We'll c won't we. If I were u and I had a hope of a pre trib rapture (I did once) I'd still keep an eye out for the antichrist just in case I was wrong. His signs and wonders will deceive even the elect if possible. Teaching believers that they won't have to go through the great tribulation isn't a great way to prepare them for it if ur wrong. Wonder y there's an apostasy just before the reign of the antichrist? It's all those waiting for a rapture that never came.
uppercutter21 6 months ago
@uppercutter21 The apostasy has been in full swing for 40+ years, have you missed it? Do you even know what the apostasy is? Hint: Prayer taken out of schools, no Bibles in schools, abortion (ripping apart little unborn babies), No more 10 Commandments, take Christ out of Christmas, Celebrating & Acceptance of Perversion (homosexuality), false prophets, false christs (Jim Jones & many others), preaching there is NO hell, No Judgment, No Lake of Fire, Rise in false religions, Exclude GOD......
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 We are not appointed to wrath. God's wrath comes "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." -Matt. 24:29. If you keep reading Matt. 24:31 then describes the rapture. Matt. 24:15 describes the reign of the antichrist. It's very obvious to any bible reader Matt. 24:15-31 along with 2 Thes. 2:1-4 show a post tribulation rapture to be the truth clear as day. Just please read Matt 24:15-31 now & don't think about what your pastor or anyone else told you it means, ask Christ.
uppercutter21 7 months ago
@uppercutter21 "...of him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH of the Lamb...the great day of THEIR WRATH has come..." Revelation 8:16-17; "...he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury...his WRATH.." Rev. 14:9-10; "...God's Wrath.." Rev. 14:19; "...God's Wrath.." Rev. 15:1; "...filled with the Wrath of God.." Rev. 15:7; "...God's Wrath.." Rev. 16:1; "...fury of His Wrath.." Rev. 16:19. What were you saying about Wrath? It's too bad you may go through the Great Tribulation.
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@uppercutter21 You're going to be Raptured AFTER the 7th Trumpet of Judgment? During the earthquake or the great hailstorm?? Rev. 11:19 Jesus said we will NOT know when He's coming for us.....He told us to always be WATCHING because He's coming at time we when we DON'T expect Him. Count down those Trumpet Judgments, then you think you'll be going to Heaven? You're going to be in for a BIG suprise. There will be NO warning at the Rapture, just like Matthew 24:39.....NO WARNING
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 We who are watching will know when He is approaching however no man knows the day or the hour, not Christ, not the angels, but only God. We can still see the changing of the seasons like a tree preparing for winter. According to 2 Thes. 2:1-5 we know that the rapture cannot occur until the great falling away comes first and the antichrist is revealed to the world, sitting on the throne in the holy land. The rapture can occur anytime after those 2 events have taken place.
uppercutter21 6 months ago
@uppercutter21 If you see the antichrist, you MISSED Jesus Christ. Hold on to your head....run for your life.....PRAY, PRAY, PRAY......don't get the mark, his name or his number on your right hand or forehead.....do you know who the "restrainer" or the "one who holds him back" is??? Maybe you'll find out one of these days.
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 The bible says in 2 Thes. 2:1-5 that we will see the antichrist revealed before the rapture. If you've been taught different then you need to read your bible and see what the word says. Many 'Christians' believe that nothing more needs to take place before the rapture (it can come anytime now) well 2 Thes. 2:1-5 show that just simply isn't the truth. The bible is where you need to get your information not preachers. If the two don't agree then the preachers are wrong.
uppercutter21 6 months ago
@uppercutter21 It's very clear that YOU don't read far enough. Try 2Thessalonians 2:6-8 You keep stopping short. That's the trouble with people that don't read their Bible OR understand it.
JesusHoldMyHand1 6 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 How would you know how much I read my bible or not? It's a sin for one believer to say such things like that to another. Those verses are very clear on what's going on and when. The abomination of desolation doesn't occur until halfway through the tribulation and we aren't gathered up with the Lord before it's revealed so plain as day there is no pre-tribulation rapture. God will not spare our flesh from tribulation. The rapture is just before God comes with His wrath.
uppercutter21 6 months ago
What Jesus said in Matthew 24:31 when He will send out His angels who will gather his elect-church in the air it says from the four winds heaven that is the same thing Paul writes in 1 Thess 4:16-17 He speaks about the Jesus will decend and talks about arcangel which is type of the chief angels and also a trumpet and His saints being in the clouds in the air. 2 Thess 1:7 aboutHis return Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.Jesus and Paul are on the same page!
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
1Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The Rapture (has never been a secret). Jesus' Voice: Sounds like a TRUMPET Rev. 1:10 & Rev. 4:1 Rapture, no Judgments; 2nd Coming, Judgments - Rapture, Christ comes FOR His Church (Bride); 2nd Coming, Christ comes WITH His Church; Rapture = We watch the Coronation of Christ; 2nd Coming, Christ is wearing MANY Crowns; Bride in Heaven for Wedding Supper Rev. 19:7-10, then come back WITH Jesus Rev. 19:11-15; 24 elders in Rev. 4 = 12 Apostles & 12 Representatives of Israel
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Please tell me were in Rev 4 do you read anything about the rapture of the church there is no were in that passage taking of any rapture. Please use scripture that talks to us clear not Rev 4 which you must think that the apostle John represents the church no where does that passage teach any of that. Thats the problem with prerapture teachings most of it is not solid chapter and verse its all what men think and ideas.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
Daniels prophesied 12:11 there will be 1290 days before the edict to kill all who do not have the mark. Then there will be 45 days of HELL ON EARTH until the Rapture (Rev 14:14). God’s wrath begins (Rev 14:17-19) in which believers will not partake in. Question; what is the Rapture? Answer: The Rapture is the Last Day Ark. God will protect us from the earth’s cleansing. God did not tell Noah to build two arks, one for when the rains started and one for when people could no longer tred water.
BrotherRickG 10 months ago
@BrotherRickG The Great Tribulation starts when Christ opens the 1st Seal. Seal #1 antichrist, followed by war, famine & death. Seal #5 has millions of Martyred Saints calling out for revenge against those who murdered them. They are told they have to "wait" until the number of their fellow servants & brothers are killed. Those who are killed during the Great Tribulation are never Raptured. They NEVER meet Christ "in the air". They are only "resurrected" Rev. 20:4-6. Rapture is Rev. 4:1-4
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1That interpretation is a tickling of one’s ear. It is the bad teaching found in 2 Thess 2:1-3. The Man of Lawlessness comes to fullness in Rev 13:11-14 which according to Dan 12:11-12 fits perfectly. Then there will be 45 days before the Harvest (1335th day). The Harvest is not a secret, only misunderstood. The pre-Trib sounds good, but will hurt many Saints when America (The Great Prostitute) falls and they are not Raptured which may be the event in 2 Thess 2:1-3.
BrotherRickG 10 months ago
@BrotherRickG Daniel 9:27 says he "signs" "confirms" "strengthens" a covenant (peace treaty) with Israel for 7 years. Through peace he destroys many. When Christ opens His 1st Seal, it is the antichrist - 1 crown, bow, white horse (Jesus Christ - many Crowns, Sword - His Spoken Word - White Horse) He's the false christ who brings with him war, famine & death. Revelation 13 is the MIDDLE of the Great Tribulation, when antichrist declares himself as god and sets up his ungodly image.
JesusHoldMyHand1 10 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1Hello, I have a few questions how can you say that those saints that are martyred in Rev 6 which are seen by John when the 5 seal is opened and are resurrected in Rev 20 are never raptured? Rev 20:5 says that they are part of the first resurrection which is the same as the rapture of the saints the bible only speaks of that there needs to be two resurrections the #1 for the saints and #2 those that died apart from Christ.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 Please read Revelation 17:14 you will see that Christ's "called, chosen & FAITHFUL followers" return WITH Him. In order for us to return with Him at His 2nd Coming, we first had to go "to Him". The Rapture 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:50-54 & John 14:1-5 ARE the Rapture. The 24 elders have their Crowns; see when they got them: 1Peter 5:4. 12 of the 24 elders are the Apostles: Matthew 19:28; the Bride is with Christ in Heaven - Revelation 19:7-10 BEFORE 2nd Coming
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I agree that the saints that died in Christ are raised first and those who are alive and remain will be changed, but that all happends at the second coming of Jesus,read Hebrews 9:28 and see that all those who are waiting for Him He will appear a second time! There is not a third or forth coming as the prerapture teachings. The bible is clear on only a second coming.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 Who are the 24 elders on the thrones? Matthew 19:28 the other 12 are the Representatives of Israel. How & when did they get their crowns?? James 1:12; 2Timothy 2:5; 2Timothy 4:8; 1Peter 5:4 Do you see the difference in: Jesus coming as a thief in the night (quietly, suddenly & quickly) vs Jesus returns in Great Power & Glory and EVERY eye shall see Him??? What does Rev. 3:10 mean?? Jesus' VOICE sounding like a TRUMPET: Revelation 1:10 & 4:1 Rapture Matthew 24:36-44
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Ok I can agree with you that the 24 elders represent the old and new covenant however they just represent the covenants but they are not the church-saints and that we can find in Rev 11:16-18 as they speak to the Lord and saying that He God should reward your prophets and the saints. And the apostle John never said that he saw himself as one of the 24 elders in fact he spoke to one of the elders.The bible is not clear on who they really are but they seem to be overseers.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 You don't think any of the Apostles are Church Saints?? Do you know that many of the Prophets preached about the coming Messiah & many of them SAW Jesus? Do you understand when people are "elect"? We were "elect" according to God's foreknowledge. 1Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-5 & 1:11 People through all the centuries have come to Christ at different times in their lives; in their generations. Many are going to Accept Christ during the GT, to fulfill their "election".
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I never said that the apostles are not church saints lets be clear on what we say, what I am saying is that the 24 elders represent the old and new covenant. Let me show you please read Rev 7:9-17 and see that an apostle who is John speaks to one of the elders and ask about a great multitude and the elder response is clear and he says verse 14 These are the one that came out of the great tribulation. See there is a distinction between the multitude-saints and the elders.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 Christ needs 2 Churches ON EARTH is because there was Rapture. The 2 Witnesses are the 2 NEW CHURCHES. LAMPSTANDS = Churches. The new converts are NEVER Raptured. They are "gathered" by Christ's Angels & those who died are ONLY "resurrected". None of them EVER meet Christ in the air. The NEVER get any Crowns, they MISSED the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Church, Born Again Believers, Saints, Holy Ones, Bride are IN Heaven from Rev 4 to 19 then we come back WITH Jesus.
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Is the body of Christ divided thats what your saying that part of the church goes to be with Christ and the other part stays to suffer the tribulation. The bible says in EPHESIANS 4:4 There is one body-the church in other words any person who is a saint belongs to the body of Christ ! Understand there is no where in the bible stating that the saints of God can not suffer tribulation yes the church will be here on the earth.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 You have no bible saying that the chucrh of God can not suffer tribulation, please read Philp 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake! Lets read what Jesus says Matthew 5:10-12 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven. Verse 12 for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Yes even Jesus states that it is right to suffer for His sake !
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 What are you trying to tell me? You don't think ANY of God's Children or His Church EVER suffered any tribulation, trials or persecution?? In the Old Testament, most of the Prophets of God were murdered. Most of the Apostles were murdered. Whole Christian towns were murdered. Christians in Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, China, Indonesia, Africa, etc are being persecuted & murdered today, but that doesn't count????? What do you want, EVERYONE to be killed????
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Looks like to did not read what I wrote because I clearly told you to look at Matthew 5:12 where Jesus states that the Prophets were ´persecuted. What I am trying to tell you is that people that believe in the prerapture teachings say that the church will be raptured before the antichrist and the great tribulation, in other words that the church can not go through the persecution that teaching is false 100%
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Jesus cleary states in Mattew 24:22 Unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved but for the elect sake those days will be shortened. See Christ never promised an easy way out for the saints-church we know that He said But he who endures to the end shall be saved! See there is no bible text stating that the church will be raptured before any tribulation. Again I say Rev 4 is no such rapture show me what verse says that the church is being raptured.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 You evidently don't know WHEN the elect are chosen. Maybe you should read 1Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-5 & Ephesians 1:11 We have been accepting Christ since the 1 Century, different years, different generations, at different times. Those "elect" will fulfil their "election" when they Accept Christ. Until then, just like the rest of the believers have, they have NOT fulfilled their election UNTIL they accpeted Christ. Now, you can go ahead and argue with GOD if you want to.
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I have no problem with the elect in any matter but my point is that the elect are the body of Christ the church the bride, God is not snatching part of the church to heaven and leaving part to stay on earth.
ALL will be here thats what the bible says he that endures to the end wil be saved. No other way but stay true to God if we are alive in those days and we shall have the victory!
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 At the time of the Rapture, ALL FAITHFUL Believers of Jesus Christ, His Bride, His Church goes WITH Him to His Father's House. That why the 2 Witnesses are the 2 NEW Churches, LAMPSTANDS from Rev. 1-3. Milllions come to Accept Christ AFTER the Rapture. Backsliders, those who ARE living in sin at the time of the Rapture, have NOT repented of their sins. They will during the Great Tribulation, but until then, they are doing things that God does NOT approve of. They are NOT the Bride
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Ok we do not agree on some of the bible verses but over all we agree that Christ is coming back for His church one day. While You believe prerapture I believe that Christ will return some time before the end of the tribulation. Explain where do get this teaching about the 2 witnesses being the new church.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 You have to Revelation 1-3, like I said. Christ is standing among the 7 Lampstands & explains they are the 7 Churches. Those Churches represent every kind of Believer there was then & now. That's why reading the Letters are so important. The 2 Witnesses in Rev. 11 are 2 Lampstands. Christ promised that He would always have a witness on Earth to preach the Gospel. After the 2 Witnesses are murdered & ascend into Heaven, the Angel flies above the Earth to preach the Gospel.
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 I never saw it like that. The good news must always be preached here on Earth. Even when all us believers are gone, the testimony of Yahweh will continue to be heard by those who don't believe. I know why too. So when sinners finally get to see their 'God' (that they always needed to see in order to believe). They will know that they'll have no excuse. "I never saw You", they'll think to say." Then they'll remember, "but I did hear You." It's not guilt He wants, it's humility!
uppercutter21 8 months ago
@uppercutter21 God's Word is very clear to those who read it, think about it, then read it again. Just like Jesus' Voice sounding like a Trumpet. Rev. 1:10; 4:1. In the Rapture the "Trump of God", "Trumpet Call of God" is Jesus Calling us Home. Too many people jump around with a verse here & a verse there, and trying to explain sequences is very hard at times. Trying to explain Physics 501 when they never took Physics 101. You are correct. Kinda hard to say "But Lord, I didn't know."
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 Jesus and all the Disciples constantly said "Repent", which means to turn away from your sin. When the Rapture happens, many who call themselves "Christians" are going to be involved in: live-in partners, abortion, adultry, homosexuality, pediphelia, inscest, rape, murder, lying, stealing, abusive to children, spouse, parents, no respect for authority, greed, crime in general, arson, involved in "fake" religions, bowing before statues, praying to dead people, denying Christ....
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 Lets see if there really is a diffrence of Jesus coming and Jesus return what does the bible say! First you said that His coming is like a thief in the night but you need to read 1 Thess 5:1-4 Paul states that we are not in darkness that day should over take us, in other words His coming is like a thief in the night to those who are not waiting for Him but for the saint no so for we are children of the Liight His coming will not be as a thief in the night.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 There is no chapter where in Rev 4 to say that is a rapture of the church thats just a guess of yours because the bible is clear that the saints of God will be here when antichrist is on earth. And no they are not luke warm trib saints like some say thats just men made up ideas.
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 Have you read Revelation 1 yet? The Churches are 7 Lampstands. Chapters 2-3 are very important letters to those 7 Churches. In Revelation 11 there are 2 NEW LAMPSTANDS because the 7 are GONE. Since you're not very interested in what Christ said, taught & is going to do, then I'll just let learn & be taught whatever you want. Peace to You and Good Luck
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 The ONLY people Raptured AFTER Revelation 4 are the 2 Witnesses (Elijah & Moses or Elijah & Enoch) in Revelation 11. The 144,000 Jewish Pastors are Raptured in Revelation 14. That's it. No more. The Tribulation Saints are NOT Raptured. They do NOT meet Christ in the air or go to HEAVEN. They are "resurrected" (new bodies) AFTER Christ comes back WITH His FAITHFUL followers!!!! The 2 Witnesses go to Heaven in front of their enemies. Jesus takes the 144,000 to Heaven.
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 I know you are having trouble with the term the "first resurrection" so I will ask you: Was Jesus' Resurrection the first? how about Lazarus? and then there's the disciples who raised the dead, were they the first? Matthew 10:5-8 Peter raised Tabitha (Dorcas) from the dead. Acts 9:36-43 (especially v40-43). Of that group ONLY Jesus ascended into Heaven - Acts 1:9 and a cloud hid him just like it will in the Rapture. I wish you much luck in your quest for the Truth. MARANATHA
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 The ONLY people that are going to ascend into Heaven are the 144,000 in Rev. 14 & the 2 Witnesses in Rev. 11. The 2 Witnesses are killed, and after 3 days God Raises them from the dead, & tells them to "Come up Here" just like in Rev. 4:1. No one else goes to Heaven after these 144,002. Do you know why the 2 Witnesses are called "Lampstands". The Lampstands represent the Churchs & they are GONE. Now 2 more Churches are being planted by Elijah & Moses or Elijah & Enoch.
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 That 1st Resurrection is of the DEAD Tribulation Saints ONLY. They are NEVER Raptured, their bodies NEVER go to Heaven or Meet Christ in the air. They are the 1st Ones Resurrected AFTER Christ returns. They go WITH us & Christ into HIS Kingdom to rule & reign with Him. The next resurrection is of the Dead (most go into the Lake of Fire). When Christ returns WITH us He sends out His Angels to "gather" those who made it through the GT ALIVE. Mark 13:26-27; Matthew 25:31-46
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 But why would you say that the first resurrection is of the dead trubulation saints only? No where does the bible teach that there will be more then just 2 resurrections number one the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that is same as the ressurection of the saints, the dead in Christ are raised first that is the 1st resurrection Apart from the resurrection of the unbeliever there are no scriptures that teach us of 3 or 4 resurrections of the saints. Please use scriptureonly
TheDeepsea79 8 months ago
@TheDeepsea79 "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..." Rev 5:6 No crowns for that Lamb. Jesus returns wearing MANY Crowns. Rev 19:11-12. Between Revelation 5 &19 ALL the Raptured Old Testament & New Testament Saints are going to watch the Coronation of Jesus Christ, The King of the Jews, The Messiah of Israel, The Savior of the World receive His Majestic, Glorious Crowns. This event will be attended by ALL who are FAITHFUL to the Lord. Rev 17:14 HE DIED FOR US!!!!!!
JesusHoldMyHand1 8 months ago
@Trilimionity YOU ARE GOAT & TEAR. YOU SPIRITUALLY DEFT, DUMB, AND BLIND AND YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SPIRITUAL GIFTS NEITHER ANY ANOINTING. I WILL NOT TROW MY PEARLS TO THE SWINES. I REST MY CASE.
ResurrectingYourSpir 11 months ago
If there was no such thing as preparation prior to an earthly tribulation, then Jesus' warning to his church, in the first 3 chapters of Revelations would be useless... The church as a whole is in bad shape..For instance, instead of concentrating efforts on lost souls, Christians are in debate with one another over doctrinal issues. The Lord is very much aware of those believers who are 'lukewarm" and are not spirit -filled..These Christians will not be ready, and will suffer greatly...
reinwitgsus 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
For any pre-tribulation believer, I would like to ask some questions 1) Do you have to be dead to be resurrected ? 2) When are dead in Christ raised ? 3) when do we appear before Jesus without sin ? 4) Would you please use three verses of the scriptures?
thetruthimpart 1 year ago
Many thanks, Mr Perry, for offering even more scriptures proving the post trib rapture. But it is a great pity that such should be necessary. the crystal clear plain wording of Matt 24 is that AFTER the trib Christ will gather his elect. But they flatly refuse to entertain the notion that the church will suffer. to them a Bride is a prima donna who could not even bear to have a finger nail broken.
thanks again for confirming my rejection of the pre trib rapture which i did many years ago
Strefanasha 1 year ago
People always call it the 'secret' rapture, as if trying to discredit it.. 'Rapture' is a modern term for the 'catching away'. Hardly going to be a SECRET when millions of people vanish is it?.
TheMrGobble 1 year ago
oh? that idiot's guide for the Last Days was written by you? I nearly bought it! It was in my shopping cart but after I heard that it was based on the false doctrine that the Rapture is post-trib, I removed it from my cart!!
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
"He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" The time is when the Tribulation starts to occur.
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
@receivejesusnow - So you believe that Christ will restore everything for the Antichrist? Interesting idea. However, Not going to happen.
richardperry2 1 year ago
@richardperry2 no i believe that it is part of the process
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
@richardperry2
PLEASE READ REV. 6 & REV. 19 & REV.20 SEE YOU IN THE MILLENIUM
ResurrectingYourSpir 1 year ago
@receivejesusnow Tribulation starting is destroying the old, so Jesus can't come back till that is complete... You can't restore that which is still intact, it has to be destroyed first, so your half right !!! study it...don't just read it !!! 1 John 4:16.
innovision777 1 year ago
Hebrew chapter 8,9,10 speak plainly of the described Covenant Yeshua would fulfill with his followers. Mark 1:15 he refered to the only passage possible (time is now fulfilled) of Daniel 9:27 where Daniel mentioned the covenant with many (Heb 8:8-10; Matt 26:28) that transended the temple animal sacrifices and Mosaic Oblations also mentioned. See Heb 8:13.
zobcity01 1 year ago
This title is inaccurate. The pretrib rapture is not a secret. It will occur and it it has been made widely known. References have been given. No secret at all. Just because some don't understand or wish to acknowledge pretrib rapture does not make it a myth.
hiyosilver100 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
One MAJOR ERROR amongst many christians is this, the idea that Jesus Chrsit is going to "Rapture the church. He is going to gather his elect, his chossen ones. The Gospel of LUKE tells us this... [34] I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. [35] Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
HedeenJeff 1 year ago
The rapture is fantasy, pure fantasy.
lizazoon 1 year ago
The Rapture is true, here are just a few verses that show that fact. Rom 8:16-25; Rom 14:10-12; 1 Cor 3:13-15, 4:5, 7:29-31, 15:22-23; 2 Cor 4:14, 5:1-5,10; Eph 4:30, 5:27; Phil 1:6,10, 2:16, 3:9-11; Col 3:4; 1 Thess 1:10, 2:19-20, 3:12-13, 5:9, 5:23; 1 Tim 6:14-15; 2 Tim 1:12, 4:8; Titus 2:13; Heb 10:25,37, 11:35; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:5,7,13, 4:7, 5:4; 2 Peter 1:11; 1 John 2:28, 3:2-3; 2 John 1:8; Rev 4:1-11, 5:1-14, 22:12. 1 Thess 4:13-18, Believers taken first, unbelievers are left behind
cannotfindavoice 1 year ago
This guy is just trying to sell his books, a little disgusting.
mrfellowship 2 years ago
What a hypocrite he says read the bible dont listen to mens teaching$ while he sells hi$ book$. Sounds like ther i$ Money to be made in writing false PO$T Trib book$ These are his books, what a sick commercial, thats all this video is a commercial.
mrfellowship 2 years ago
hey guys i know a really good book, it just came out.
Story of the Way by John Tather, it talks about going through the tribulation in story form, it is really good.
hector771000 2 years ago
I just hate the word "rapture". But God bless you for making this video. A lot of misled Christians are going to be shocked when they are realize that they are still on earth with everyone else during the tribulation.
kallenfranchise 2 years ago
Kallenfranchise the gathering of the saints will take place, the catching away
of the church will take place before the tribulation. Paul made this clear to the saints, in II Thessalonians 2: Paul had to calm the saints down because they thought the day of the Lord had begun because of a counterfeit letter sent to them. They thought they were in the tribulation period, if they were POST trib they'd been happy but they were unsettled, upset because they thought they missed the "catching away"
mrfellowship 2 years ago
Context of course context because it is king when reading the passages from beginning to end how do you think I catch mormons, muslims, and others in there lies by using the whole word of God, doing a word study on a word and how it is used thru out the Bible and reading.
xena1973 2 years ago
The words you use are so Christ like, now I know I got too you and your ready to pop, its ok I forgive you really, just continue to read the scriptures.
xena1973 2 years ago
Are you sure you understand or do you ignore scripture completely to push your view thru read 2 Thess 1:1-12 the whole chapter clearly speaks of rest at the 2nd coming not at the rapture for the church and like all pretribers they ignore and push it to the side and point out John 14:2-3, Rev 3:10, Luke 21:36 as the rapture, all out of context...............or making assumptions...........
xena1973 2 years ago
I am sooooo confused ! but like psxwarrior WHATever The Lord wants SO BE IT ! can someone JUST explain to another with maybe a timeline or something very simple to help us all to understand ? THIS Video does that but I suppose I need to read more....listen more....but want to say BLESSINGS TO US ALL & PLEASE RESIST ONE World DOMINATION , the New World Order ! WE ARE MEANT TO BE SOVEREIGN & FREE ! NOT RULED BY A CRIMINALLY INSANE WORLD GOVERNMENT ! these truly are the end times !
OurLordLennon 2 years ago
I was a Pre-Triber for the 1st 2 years of my Christian life. Then i read Dave McPhearson's book, "The Incredible Cover-Up". That was 33 years ago. I suggest those who are interested in this subjct to do the same
sizzlechooch 2 years ago
Jesus also came to the Feast of Tabernacles in secret after his own brethren mocked Him and said He wouldn't come.
I wonder...what could that be a picture of in today's world?
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
You all might enjoy Googling "The Newest Pretrib Calendar" and "Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum." Also Google the earlier written "Famous Rapture Watchers" and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty."
LouNor25 2 years ago
There is no secret rapture. Those who are left will be caught up when Yahshua returns (those who were 'taken' will be dead- destroyed in the vengeance of the Day of Yahweh. Notice too there is no passage that says anyone will be taken to heaven. When Yahshua returns He will regather the resurrected Israelites and those left alive (or changed) to set up the Kingdom- in Israel. They will be caught up with Him in the air and proceed to Israel, not 'heaven'. The millennial Kingdom will be in Israel.
SeekerTx7 2 years ago
Yes, there is: John 14 "In my Father's house are many mansions--I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." I am guessing that Jesus' Father is in heaven and that is where his house is!
meggy8868 2 years ago
Keep in mind that when Christ has come again, He is back on earth.
It is there that He receives us unto Himself. This is the harvest gathering into His Kingdom on Earth. Not in heaven!
richardperry2 2 years ago
I disagree, respectfully.
When he comes back to stay (the second coming) he will set up his kingdom on earth, evil is removed. There will be natural people who have survived the tribulation and are believers (who will give birth, etc.) and there will be the glorified believers who returned with him. Marry John 14 with these events and you must correctly infer that they are TWO events, the first, the righteous are removed, the second, the evil are removed.!
meggy8868 2 years ago
Don't listen to them meggy. Jesus said "I go to prepare a place." He's preparing it right now, and that means it's not on earth. We go to the ple\ace He has prepared for us at the Rapture for 7 years, and then we come back with Him for the marriage supper. Just as Jewish bridegrooms always take their Brides away to consummate the marriage for 7 days before they come back to the marriage feast the groom's father prepares. We'll come for the Supper of the Lamb and then rule and reign on earth!!!
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
So what do you do with 2 Thess 1:1-12 Paul tells the church to endure thru persecution, tribulation and rest will occur at the 2nd coming..............
xena1973 2 years ago
The Great Tribulation is a specific event and is the judgment of God. General tribulation is not a specific event and is not the judgment of God. We go through tribulation, not the Great Tribulation b/c God cannot judge the righteous along with the wicked.
Also, you added the word "Second" to those verses because you know as well as I do that the use of "Second Coming" denotes the coming at the end of the Great Trib and it suited your purposes to add that interpretation. Don't add to the Word.
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
I just sent you a break down of 2 Thess 1:1-12 as well you can look at any commentary and it will tell you that the 2nd coming is connected and spoken of in 2 Thess 1:1-12 and that will show that there can be "no" rapture of the church before the tribulation but after when Jesus Christ comes again, if you like you can ask that question to Richard Perry He'll tell you the same thing.......
xena1973 2 years ago
In 2 Thess 1:1-12 everlasting punishment is spoken of it does not occur at the the rapture or during the great tribulation but at the 2nd coming
xena1973 2 years ago
You drank the theological kool-aid and I'm not interested in fighting about it with you. The Rapture pattern is presented in no less than 10 Old Testament stories (Enoch, Noah, Lot, Rahab, Rachel, Rebekah, Ruth, David, the Jewish Wedding, Joseph). It is also clearly articulated in the NT. Rev 4:1, just as an example. Bye.
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
One question you brought up the jewish wedding festivel and all etc, Jesus Christ never taught that in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Rev 4:1
The person spoken too is John the Apostle for John had visions in the book of revelation going up and down and if you say it is the church its is going up and down thru visions in the book of Revelation, how sad you ignore scripture in context and your like every pre triber pulling scripture outcontext.....
xena1973 2 years ago
He compared it to a wedding about a million times. In John 14:2,3 He said exactly what bridegrooms always say to their Brides before they go to away to prepare a place for them. At the Rapture He comes and gets us and takes the Church to the prepared place. At the Second Coming He comes back with the Church. There is no going to the prepared place at that point. He sets up His kingdom on earth. So obviously the Second Coming is not the subject of John 14:2,3.
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
John 14:2-3 (New King James Version)
2 In My Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
"There is no hint of a rapture before the tribulation found in v. 2-3 so again its an assumption like a pre tribers do
and again Jesus Christ never mentioned a rapture for the church or Him coming before the
xena1973 2 years ago
He said He was going to prepare a place and that He would come back, get us, and take us there. That is no assumption, Madam. That's what He said. There is no taking to Heaven that occurs to the Second Coming. Instead, He is coming to earth. Get a clue.
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
And how does these verse John 14:2-3 tie with the rapture and tribulation there is no connection, I can say the same thing, we must read the whole word of God and not pull out a passage to assume it means something you want it to mean when it doesn't, if you say rapture then that would contradict 2 Thess 1:1-12. the whole chapter from beginning to end.
xena1973 2 years ago
there is no taking to heaven. period, rogueoftroy.. if you notice, he says "I WILL COME.." that is his return. but after he returns it is not mentioned that he goes back to heaven with us. actually that place that is being prepared actually comes to us here on the new earth after the 1000years in rev21 where it actually says the same thing about being with us. rev21v3 says "..he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and god will be with them as their god."
vj5467 2 years ago
that place is never mentioned as accecible to the saints until after the 1000years.
vj5467 2 years ago
Yawn...
Rogueoftroy 2 years ago
lol i noticed that im not the only person you quit on. you did it also with xena1973. if you can't back your beleif up with me or anyone else stop getting on here just to quit lol. bye
vj5467 2 years ago
You both would argue until I die of old age even after all the proof I've offered you both as to the reality of the Rapture. I don't mind discussing the matter with people who want to learn and actually listen to what I say. But yes...once you prove that you just like to argue and will not relent even after you are shown why you are wrong, I am likely to stop wasting my time on you. You are stupid and belligerent and an egomaniac. And you keep trying to start ta