Benny Morris: Jews lived with Arabs in Harmony (part 1)

[prettyflydirt]

The other side of the story is that for a lot of history the west was just as discriminatory against jews. Nevermind the issue of the crusades, where westerners were just as happy to massacre Jews as Muslims. In a lot of ways, the muslim world was more tolerant during the medieval period. Evidently though, they haven't moved on quite as much as the west since.

[dontdomilk]

@SatchmoSings Not particularly, because you are missing the point. The Arabs conquered Palestine from Byzantium in 638, correct (though pre-Islamic Arab tribes had been in the area prior, mostly for trade). Until the Abbasid revolution in the Caliphate, the burgeoning Islamic Empire was, primarily, an Arab empire. Between the conquest of Palestine and the rise of the Ottomans in the late 13th century, there were a good 600 years there. Truthfully I think the issue between us is an

[SatchmoSings]

Of course the Jews and Arabs lived "in harmony."

It was the TURKS that ran things!!! and the Turks wouldn't take shit from anyone.

[dontdomilk]

@SatchmoSings Except that much of what he cites was pre-Ottoman...

[SatchmoSings]

@dontdomilk Okay, so it was Byzantium that kept the peace; satisfied now?

and anyway, Arabs didn't come to Palestine until 638 AD.

[dontdomilk]

@SatchmoSings ambiguity on the part of the videos title, as Morris' claims are of Jewish-Muslim relations generally, not Jewish-Arab relations specifically. Though the two overlap heavily, I thought you were making a snarky semantic issue. That said, the Turks dealt with the Jews in similar ways that the Arabs did, so...yea?

[SatchmoSings]

@dontdomilk If you'd read my other comments, I've always maintained, genius, that the Turks dealt with the Jews a lot differently than Arabs; the Turks really did keep the peace between the Jews, Christians and Arabs

Additionally, nimrod, I would think that a real genius, such as yourself, would already know that the Turks LET IN foreign-born ZIONIST Jews and LET THEM BUY LAND in Palestine and register their purchases with the Turkish authorities so it could be taxed

Fuck you, yea?

[dontdomilk]

@SatchmoSings Further, the material discussed wasn't limited to Palestine, as the Jewish communities throughout what became the Arab World were established mostly before the conquests anyway

[ahmed337799]

benny morris doesn't care about academic integrity, he only cares for making israel look good.

[coutin11]

I did not use that for a justification, only to show the common hypocrisy that is found on the Pal side. As for the number of Jewish refugees vs Pal refugees they were around the same, its just that Israel integrated theirs, while the Arabs did not. I agree that bulldozing and the spread of setters is wrong, its something wrong in the Israeli religious right. However settlers or no, the conflict would still exist, suggest you actually read books on the history, see for yourself.

[FoolishOrc]

@coutin11 you are the one who should read a book not tainted by Zionist propaganda and Israels attempt to justify its crimes against the Palestinian people and humanity. Which is Benny Morris' main motivation.

[coutin11]

for a piece of land. Some tenants (masses) were compensated and others were unfortunately were forced off their land, cuz legally it no longer belonged to them. BTW how can a people run a country if most of the land and wealth is in the hands of people (Arab land owners) outside of the country? It is true that they did not really appeal to the Arab masses within Palestine and the Jews coming in were mostly ignorant of them, but the zionist leadership tried to appease and secure

[coutin11]

an understanding with King Faisal, whom the Pal Arab masses considered their ultimate ruler. The Zionist leadership at first attempted to build around the Arabs and tried to integrate them as 2nd-class- citizens. However considering the masses attitudes towards being "under" or being a minority within a "Jewish" government built on "Arab" land would never suffice with them and thus they turned to violent rioting of beatings, raping, and looting, somewhat progrom like

[coutin11]

@coutin11 As for the women being used to buy Arab land. I dont remember hearing that, I do know that many Jewish women in Palestine during 1917 became prostitutes due to the economic down fall. However I do know that the Jewish agency pumped alot of money into Palestine, which in turn increased the economy of not only the Jews, but also the Arabs, which attracted Arabs from inside and outside of Pal to new places of commerce.

[TheSilverSultan4]

@coutin11 Also I must inform you that the Jewish National Fund only helped Jews to become wealthy and succesful, they didn't involve the Arabs at all, they built factories, and jobs only for the Jews, while the Arabs lived in Poverty, maybe that could also have led to the riots, poverty leads to violence, even in the beginning Ben Gurion said there are not Arabs in Israel, while the Arabs were being driven from their homes, some Arab villages still stand empty, their owners in other countrys, 

[coutin11]

@TheSilverSultan4 to put moderates into office. Yes the Jewish agency was funded by JNF, which also bought land in South America. It was an organization by Jews to help other jews. Is or was there an Arab organization that helped jews?? by building up the Jewish sectors they did make living conditions for Arabs better. perhaps they rioted to poverty, but it was always there, not till they were threatened by jewish nationalism did they really turn violent, its not really a coinidence.

[coutin11]

@coutin11 and perhaps Ben Gurion by public policy did not acknowledge Arabs, but he did have fond comments of them, and at first held the view that they were brothers to Jews (Ishmael myth). He really had to have known of them, because he supported a transfer policy in the 30s after it was clear that integrating Arabs into a Jewish country was very much impossible. Arab villages were not really emptied until 47-48, in which secured the states borders within, and could be used to take in

[coutin11]

@coutin11 Jews from different lands, they were latter filled by Jews expelled from Arabs. Funny how no one really talks bout the Jewish refugees from Arab lands, and Arab leaders dont ever acknowledge it in their peace talks. And though it appears bad that some 100 villages were emptied, how can you ignore that the Arabs were coming to do the SAME THING.

[bigbossman999]

@coutin11 So you're moral equivalency is that because despotic regimes committed ethnic cleansing and removed people from their lands, that Israel is justified in doing so? Also you cannot compare how many Jews may have been expelled from Arab lands with the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Palestinian refugees. And the problem continues, the Israeli's are contstantly bulldozing villages and forcing Palestinians out of their homes to make way for Israeli Settlers, who are despised themselves in Israel

[Uncle99B]

@coutin11 You know what's really funny is the NO jews were "expelled" from arab nations prior to the creation of Israel. It's almost like Israel is the problem

[coutin11]

@coutin11 1st COMMENT 1) why does it matter if its Ashkenazi Jews or Mizrahi Jews? Both are jews, both share similar being discriminated and being persecuted, and both have equal claim to a homeland in Pal/Israel. Its just that European Jews were in a better position to organize and fund such an expedition. It was not SOME land owners, and just because they sold land to Jews does not equate them to being corrupt. The Famous hussein sold land to Jews, many were happy to get an overrated price

[coutin11]

@coutin11 and forced into the plantation fields. I meant that Jews were seen and often treated as subhuman and inferior (slaves) to Muslims, who saw themselves superior and more deserving than Jews, Christians and Pagans (who were treated the worst). Hence they could easily been seen as the "master." Do you have any "facts" or sources that could proof your claim, that jews were treated equally and lived harmoniously with Muslims?

[coutin11]

are you kidding me??? did you even listen to the video??? Do you not know what a dhimmi is? There are many sources on how Jews were seen and treated like sub humans. Just because Jews were allowed to "Live" does not equate to peaceful coexistence. Anti jewish mentality has been ingrained into muslim and arabic culture since the time of Byzantines and rise of Muhammad. How else do you explain the ease in which the Arabic countries kicked out their "coexisting" jews???

[TheSilverSultan4]

this dude is a liar, how do you explain the peaceful coexistance in the Ottoman, or other times in history, only when the shit called Zionism started you have wars,

[coutin11]

@TheSilverSultan4 This mentality then took a sky rocketing rise along with the rise of Zionism because Zionism is seen as breaking out from the submission to Muslim authority and breaking out from their inferior status as dhimmi. It threatened traditional arabic and Muslim ideology and culture. To say they lived "peacefully" would be similar as saying African American slaves coexisted with their southern masters until the rise of abolitionism.

[TheSilverSultan4]

@coutin11 do forgive me, but Jews were not slaves to Muslims, the comparison to Slaves in America is totaly, wrong, also if Jews were so mistreated, why did they all leave Europe in the Middle Ages for Muslim Lands, this is documented, one example Spain, Zionism is a racist ideology, look into it's early philosophy, actions, and goals, most diffenetly the man who started it,

[coutin11]

@TheSilverSultan4 lol how is it racist, just because you call it racist or because UN was pressured to decree it racist does not make it racist. You might as well say that Arab nationalism is racist. Beware of the double standard. As for the middle ages, Jews under Muslim rule was better than being under any christian control. Jews were blamed for killing chirst, which is obviously a big deal to christians. Whereas to Muslims, jews are only the rejecters of prophets.

[coutin11]

@coutin11 And the reason why they left Spain, was because they were kicked out and the Turkish sultan, did not really see it as taking in refugees, he saw it as gaining an economic BOOST. Every society had its negative stereotypes of Jews. And even though Christians were far worse in the middle ages it still does not refute nor excuse how Jews and other dhimmi were treated under Muslim rule. And how is the slave comparison wrong? I did not mean they were physically put in chains

[TheSilverSultan4]

@coutin11 I know that not all Jews go by this view, but I must say that the Revisionist Zionists their founder being Jabotinsky, is not what I call democratic, not to mention the crazy ultra-Orthodox Jews, who are brainwashing kids in the temples to believe God had given them that land, that they should spread Israel to Jordan, also not to mention Chaim Azriel Weizmann, who sought help from the Europeans, and US to declare Israel a Jew only land,

[coutin11]

@TheSilverSultan4 I am impressed you know of the revisionist Zionists. However did know that they were a small minority among the Jews/ zionists in Pal. They were not supported by the masses of Jews, instead they were heavily set on following Ben Gurion. Idk about democratic, but they were pretty set on establishing a Jewish state as quickly as possible without regards to other ppl and when Arab Pal started to riot against defenseless Jews, they were the ones who wanted to strike back.

[coutin11]

@coutin11 They turned out to be very militant, and they were the ones who first used terrorist -like tactics against the Brits and Arabs. They later became the Irgun and STen gang, both violent terrorist-like organizations. Those same crazy orthodox Jews were the ones who did not WANT a land of Israel according to the Messiah "rule." Id blame religion in general towards that sort of view for a greater Israel. But both Islam and Judaism should be equally blamed as well.

[coutin11]

@coutin11 Also Israel's demographics shows that at least 40-50% of its pop is considered "secular," therefore Israel itself has its fair share of problems from the ultra orthodox and settlers itself. However I do not think it as harmful nor as severe as Palestinian culture, which has hitler's mien kampf as the # 1 best seller, nor the media which directly denies the state of Israel, and attacks it through anti semtic messages, nor the masses overwhelming support of terrorist actions against

[coutin11]

@coutin11 Israel's civilian pop. As for Chaim, idk about the jews only part. It seemed rather that Chaim held the view that Arabs hated Jews and did not like the traditional place that Jews took as being dhimmi. He was dedicated to creating a state of Israel, a state of Jews, but I think he was open to an Arab minority within Israel. Either way, Ben Gurion had more power and had to final say in the end. Sorry for the scattered comments, youtube does a bad job of keeping them in place.

[TheSilverSultan4]

@coutin11 yes, I remember that one of the Prime Ministers of Israel was once part of the Stern Gang, but while the Arabs did revolt, they were not organized like the Jews, Have you heard of the Haganah, the special fighting force started by England to fight any Arab government, (Iraq) that were close to the Nazi's, but the Haganah betrayed the British later to fight the Arabs of Palestine, for the founding of Israel,

[coutin11]

@TheSilverSultan4 lol where you getting your history man? Haganah were not similar to nazis, stern gang were!! Haganah was underneath Ben Gurion who was supported by most of the Yishuv and practiced mostly restraint. They were not started by England, in fact it was illegal according to British mandate. and it wasnt to fight arabs, it was to DEFEND from ARabs. Notice there was no HAg until Arabs started to turn to violence.

[TheSilverSultan4]

@coutin11 one must remember that the Ashkenazi Jews of Europe connected with Jews in America to start the powerful Jewish lobby, have you seen, what they talk about in those meeting these days, would make Libermann sound tame, of course he is a nut job in his own level, I don't understand why the media pays more attention to the Extremists in Islam, but not Judaism, or the loons that came from the Soviet Union(Libermann) with not family history in the land to tell Arab Israelis to test a oath,

[coutin11]

@TheSilverSultan4 America did not play a big role until 1948 with Harry S truman, Before that a Jewish state was pretty much set. America was lobbied to gain international acceptance of Israel, but America really didnt "aid" Israel till after 67. and Id prob expect Russian Jews to be most aggressive, since they were the ones being oppressed and viewed as agents of Israel (USSR was antisemitic and anti zionist) Id agree there are extremists on both sides, but Israel has better capability

[TheSilverSultan4]

@coutin11 First of all the Ashkenazi Jews started the Zionist movement, Second, Jew in Europe, Third the Jewish National Fund which bought or tricked some lame, Corrupt Palestinian land rulers to buy some land, they didn't refer to the hundreds of regular Arabs living in the area, I have heard instances of some women useing sex to trick the wealthy Arabs into signing their land away, that's not to say all Arabs did that, but the Zionist saw this as the first step into starting Israel,