The things I have learned from trying to talk about feminist issues on YouTube

[carmel1119]

typo: just as *she* has the same right. Also, her complaint is being trivialized because it is indeed, a trivial complaint, it seems quite logical to me.

[GreatG0dOm]

I'd add that if the guy in #5 is good looking that a woman would surely go to his room with him with eagerness. HA! Also that ugly women aren't worth raping. Also if the man in #5 is turned down then he may get his feelings hurt & get very angry at the woman because she should feel it is a compliment if he comes onto her. When man in #5 asks you to his hotel room for coffee he really means just a hot beverage. And If a woman has a sexy photo of herself in public, then she is always fair game.

[LasraelLarson]

@GreatG0dOm

Well speculation is entertaining, I suppose?

However, the night in question... turns out pics are showing up online. Taken by PZ Myers himself.

Perhaps you could take a look & suss out which fellow it is? Who knows, all your speculation could pay off & you could hit the bullseye.

[GreatG0dOm]

@LasraelLarson These are from comments I have read under men's videos on the topic. I suppose I could add "That woman is insane" as another comment I read, but not put quite that nicely.

[LasraelLarson]

@GreatG0dOm

ah regurgitation. that is different.

be sure to wash, the smell could be mistaken for your scent. ;)

[GreatG0dOm]

@LasraelLarson You are so precious.

[2bsirius]

It's strange--Criticism of Rebecca Weston is now taking the form of:

"What were you worried about? You're too ugly to rape."

OR

"You are a bat-shit crazy feminist."

And because she is the latest punching bag for insecure male macho bullies, those kinds of throw away insults are being applauded by lots of 'REAL MEN' on YT.

I guess the message is women need to pay attention to what happened to her when she had the nerve to say that something a male atheist did made her feel uncomfortable...

[LasraelLarson]

@2bsirius

Stef McGraw. As a women were you paying attention then?

Women deserve full person-hood & autonomy. This can be achieved respectfully.

Becoming abusers of power themselves, undermines credibility.

Perhaps next time, she should face the person that has made her uncomfortable & let them know. Communicate direct. Rather than make a video, or speak from a podium, or blog a boycott.

Is emotional manipulation & shame the new feminist black?

No wonder this is going so wrong for you.

[2bsirius]

@LasraelLarson

What are you talking about?

Rebecca Watson did tell the man in the elevator that it she wasn't interested. She also had a perfect right to say that it made her feel uncomfortable, if it did.

How EXACTLY could she have been more direct?

And I have NO IDEA what subtext you have in mind with:

"Is emotional manipulation & shame the new feminist black?

No wonder this is going so wrong for you."

Again, what does that even mean?

[2bsirius]

(2)

I just read a really cogent blog from a man [who was in Dublin] and saw the beginning of this. He pointed out [and I agree with him] that the man should NOT be faulted for being a sexual being or for finding Ms. Watson attractive, as he seemed to, BUT as he said, the man in the elevator had been in the bar with her & others for hours BEFORE the incident. He could have bought her coffee at any point during those multiple hours and could also have talked to her then. He did not do so...

[LasraelLarson]

@2bsirius

What color where the elevator mans eyes? Hair? How tall was he? About how much did he weight? Roughly how old was he?

Can you answer those questions?

If not, why are you telling me anything about him at all?

[2bsirius]

@LasraelLarson

Again, I have no idea what form of 'logic' you are using at all. The point is that that there were two people in that elevator. One felt discomfort. She expressed her feelings of discomfort. She didn't yell, "Rape." She wasn't alarmist in anyway that I can see. She merely said in passing [it was a minuscule part of her video on the conference] that being asked back to man's room room at 4am was something she wished hadn't happened. It was blown out of proportion by others.

[carmel1119]

@2bsirius

No one has denied her right to feel "uncomfortable." What is offensive to people is that she publically shamed this man for merely extending her a polite request for coffee, then proceeded to moralize, dictating to men how they should/shouldn't behave. This is what made many people "uncomfortable". We have every right to express this, just as has the same right. Equality, remember? Radical feminists don't have any special priveleges in this regard.

[2bsirius]

@carmel1119

Seems a little strange that you object to her observations, but you make absolutely NO OBJECTION when comments about her vilify her with derogative insults like "bat-shit crazy" or "too ugly to rape."

Was she abusive to the man in the elevator? No, she said she wished men wouldn't do that. She expressed an opinion and then said how it made her feel.

Can people only be certain they won't be brutally insulted if they agree NOT to express certain opinions you & others don't like?

[GreatG0dOm]

@2bsirius Yes, haven't you heard that Rebecca Watson is supposedly mentally ill because she is so in fear of men.

[2bsirius]

@GreatG0dOm

I have no idea if you mean this ironically or not...Before I spent so much time on YT, I'd have been fairly certain that you were being ironically funny, but I know from experience here that there are so many people determined to tell other people [in the most humorless ways possible] what that SHOULD be thinking that I'm never sure anymore.

I'll just assume irony and smile though.

:)

[GreatG0dOm]

@2bsirius Yes, I am being sarcastic. It's just another thing I've heard some men say in comments about RW. I know what you mean about having difficult telling the difference.

[carmel1119]

@2bsirius

That's a separate matter from the points I made, but for the record, I find the insults toward her highly objectionable and extraordinarily childish, but ultimately, the people flinging mud are demeaning themselves, not Watson, though I doubt they possess the level of maturity/self honesty required to understand that.

I do think her comments were divisive/offensive, but most certainly didn't warrant the level of hate/anger that I've witnessed.

[bloodangel13]

I agree, Too bad there allot of those so called "feminist" hijacked it and ruined everything it's all about.

[unclexbob]

Someone said "bitch" while arguing with me, so everyone that disagrees with me is with that rude guy.

[AdamaKnowsBest]

I agree some of individuals who disagree with feminism make obnoxious, inaccurate, and offences remarks 2 make their point. These people r most likely idiots who do not have enough information or manners 2 make their points against feminism properly or they r outright sexists...[cont]

[AdamaKnowsBest]

@AdamaKnowsBest [cont]...IMO 1 can work with the former but the latter should b ignored. Now that having been said I am somewhat concerned by your video because I have encountered feminists who argue that their belief system is infallible as a result according 2 them any criticism of it is impossible...[cont]

[AdamaKnowsBest]

@AdamaKnowsBest [cont]...Furthermore they argue that when it happens that it is due 2 sexism nothing else and that the person or persons who made such statements r inherently sexist. Now I not trying 2 say that u r doing this in your video I merely wish 2 ask u that do u think that it is entirely possible 4 some1 (male or female) 2 disagree with feminism 4 valid reasons and not b a sexist?

Anyways good video

[giliellthesecond]

Wonderful.

Funny how you could reply to most comments here with one of your points ;)

[grape387]

A accurate list as far as my experience goes, but I think you forgot one: 7. Since western women is not as badly opressed as women in some other cultures, they should not complain at all about things that happen to them.

[GreatG0dOm]

@grape387 Good one. Yes, Dawkins reminded RW of that point.

[grape387]

@GreatG0dOm I wasnt going to name names, but that incident was sort of fresh in my mind...

[S0undBite]

Well you should pay attention to number 4 since it's the more rational of the two.

[DmKrispin]

ind [dot] pn/ofQzQu

Yeah, these women were just asking for it, being all sexy and elderly and all! We all know that men cannot control where they put their penis. No wonder they turn into sex-crazed beasts when faced with an alluring, provocative, non-virginal senior citizen wearing sexy sexy support hose and those sinfully feminine orthopedic shoes!

[tyrongkojy]

Women SHOULD be careful... and carry a tazer. Just, you know, also get training and a lisence, so as to weed out the nutters who will taze random men literally asking for the time.

Yeah, it's happened.

[yuo252]

Can you call them cunts if they act like cunts? Example you ask them if they want to go out and they scream "RAPE!"?

[inuyashaxx]

@HannibalBarca13 Did you know this girl at any point before this group? Did you speak to her during this group? Did this girl give a talk in which she explicitly talked about how things like this were a problem? If your answers are no, then your anecdote isn't relevant; your situation was totally different from hers. He'd never spoken to her before and did EXACTLY what she had told him he shouldn't do.

[vesman81]

The things I have learned from trying to talk about issues on YouTube

Fixed the title for you

[accentgrave1]

I agree with @ambygirl1008. He was not guilty of misogyny and quite clumsy doing that invite in those circumstances. And I can understand RK's uneasiness and her yt comment as a personal comment, not a feminist one. I do however think that she helped highjack the purpose of the atheist meeting when escalating the conflict, on a feminist position this time. As for yt discussions, on any topic, there are always more facepalms than positive dialogue, I guess. Cheers.

[DaniNouveau]

Brilliant! 

[V0r4xiz]

1. more often by self-proclaimed feminists and less often (if ever) by their opponents.

2. it always is :/

6. it's not about feeling unsafe, it's about "ZOMFG I GET SEXUALIZED, TO HELL WITH MEN!!1!!!"

Just saying :>

[Eopyk]

Great video and points Nellie :)

All love from me Jasmine

[devchelle2]

*reads comments* *sigh* *facepalm*

[ambygirl1008]

What I have found is that the men in the Atheist community who are slamming her overlook the elements that lead to her discomfort. 1. It was 4:00 am, 2. She was alone. 3. She was in a vulnerable place (elevator) 4. She was in a foreign country. 5. He was a stranger. 6. He attempted to see her alone right then. I can see her rationale for being uncomfortable, it was bad judgment on his part, but he is not guilty of misogyny. Overall, I think the attacks on her have been unfair.

[inuyashaxx]

@ambygirl1008 If he didn't attend her lecture (and I'm pretty sure he did), he was still at the hotel bar with her group for several hours in which they discussed the content of her lecture, which included things exactly like this. She wanted to be left alone; he wanted to get laid. He put his wishes above hers. That makes it misogynist.

[GreatG0dOm]

@inuyashaxx RW's video didn't call him a misogynist in the elevator video. She said she FELT sexualized - aka object vs a full person. The crude nasty posts under her lecture video were what was called misogynistic in her video. The crude nasty misogynistic posts under the elevator incident video started, plus videos made misrepresenting her words. I saw guys doing 10 minute videos trashing RW who hadn't even seen either of the original videos. Sad!

[GreatG0dOm]

@ambygirl1008 6. He had never spoken to her before. First intro is a possible offer of sex (or coffee) 7. in HIS hotel room. 8. He seemed to ignore her feelings (or he is hard of hearing). Was he a sweet socially clumsy hard of hearing nightowl coffee lover?

[tonypiecuzpan]

It would be awesome if she responded to theamazingatheist..

[hatemorethanyou999]

The only mistake the gal made was that she made the issue too much about herself and not enough about the idiot who followed her into the elevator at 4am trying out his lame pick-up line.

[TheLummer66]

Not enough thumbs up for this video. I would like to add be prepared to be called an extremist or femonazi no matter how pragmatic or moderate a feminist position one takes.

[ix3bobbylee]

@ReignbowSmite Feminist theory's basic premise is that in order to have that equality for all humans we have to recognize who has privilege and how it is distributed in our society. No one, as you say, gets 'special treatment' in this theory. Quite contrary since it examines those who are marginalized and underprivileged.

[ix3bobbylee]

She's describing ad hominem attacks. These can come up in any argument when one person runs out of good points and attacks the other person based on their characteristics. For ex., Alexandra Wallace: she wasn't very logical based on her rant but people zeroed in on her blonde hair and cleavage as 'added' evidence of her illogical behavior. Point is, ad hom attacks are applicable wherever there is a stereotype to be conflated, including race.

[ReignbowSmite]

I'm against feminist theory and I think is amazingly flawed. I support the equal treatment of ALL human beings, and they don't get any special treatment based on their genitals, skin colour, or location.

[bokkpokk]

1 and 2 has not as much to do exclusively with feminism or its opposite (whatever either of those are) than it has to do with people trying to belittle anyone they are talking to/of. Every boon (sorry, person) not having enough reason and friendly persuasion to fall back on resorts to using words like "cunt, fatty, nerd, idiot, ugly, retard, four-eyes" etc, to try to win an argument or feel big and important. The rest of your points I agree on (also).

[phenixwryter]

I'm all for discussing issues, but after days watching vids and reading blogs and the comments left on both concerning this matter-some with variations to her story, even when folks were provided links to her vid, and some with extrapolations and some with interpretations of said story, well-tbh I'm freaking numb at this point.

I wish folks would look up the definition of the word feminism, so at least that point would be clear.

[inuyashaxx]

@phenixwryter The definition of feminism is quite clear: promoting gender equality. The real problem comes in when feminism is *misunderstood*. Arguments happen because non-feminists deliberately misconstrue and misrepresent what feminism is saying, which is exactly what happened in this case. RW says she was uncomfortable, and the opposition turns that into "you're saying all men are rapists" and other pointless, hyperbolic noise.

[TheBroncoTrip]

@inuyashaxx If it was truly about equality then she should have acted AS an equal.

If a man walks into an elevator and says he found my talk interesting and invites me back to his room to talk and have a coffee, I might say no, I might say yes. It depends on how he's looking at me, the tone of his voice, and whether or not he's groping himself/wielding a giant black rubber fist dildo in his hand.

Same applies if a woman walks into an elevator with the same proposition.

[inuyashaxx]

@TheBroncoTrip, Feminism is about promoting equality, but to do so you have to examine why inequality exists and how it functions. It's been pointed out countless times in this discussion over "Elevatorgate" that the reason she was uncomfortable is due to an inequality, and it's one of privilege. Men are not regularly propositioned by women and, since men are raped by women at a far, far lower rate, men are not conditioned to take sexual advances as potentially threatening.

[TheBroncoTrip]

@inuyashaxx The man could have been equally as uncomfortable. He may not have been nervous about the potential of rape, but there are hundred of other things that could have happened. She could have pepper sprayed him, accused him of rape and gone to the police, slandered him and ruined his reputation and possibly cost him his career.

Don't preach about equality where it exists. That was Richard Dawkins point, just put far more over the top.

[TheBroncoTrip]

@inuyashaxx Saying that because a man asked you out for coffee, or even if he tried to rape you, does not mean that equality doesn't exist. It just means that there are predators out there. It's not just women that are at risk, predators prey on anyone, it just depends on what it is they're after. Whether it's your wallet, your vagina or your dick.

Being a victim or at high risk of of being one =/= inequality.

[TheBroncoTrip]

@inuyashaxx If your cry inequality anytime a man approaches you, there's a problem, and I don't think it's with society. Why is it suddenly taboo for a man to approach a woman, be it on the subway, in an elevator or on the street. The location shouldn't matter, the intent behind it does. There is a difference between someone making conversation, and someone pinning you against a wall making unwanted advances.

Common sense is not so common apparently.

[TheBroncoTrip]

You also have to bear in mind that true equality doesn't exist when it comes to sexes. There are some things men can do that women can't and some things women can do that men can't. Equality is only equality in the eyes of law, regulations, salary, job opportunities, etc. Equality now seems to mean, minorities are the priority. You know, so they can be equal and we can be 'fair' to everyone.

I'm not racist or sexist, but I see the whole 'sexism'/'racism' card played far too often.

[HeavyTrafficAhead]

Drop the comparisons to racial slurs. It doesn't work. When I hear an Asian or black people say, "yeah it's the same thing", then you can make the point. You don't have experience in making the comparison. These kind of comparisons always fail too. Look at when prolifers/animal rights activist try to compare abortion and animal treatment to slavery and/or The Holocaust. Yeah, it sounds like that. It always backfires

[ReignbowSmite]

@HeavyTrafficAhead Calling someone a name based on a physical trait they have no control over is the same thing. How can someone have experience in making a comparison? LOL. When you discriminate or insult someone based on physical traits, there is no difference between trait a being the trait you focus on, or trait b. Either way, it's an attempt to make an individual look inferior by use of their appearance or stereotyping.

[HeavyTrafficAhead]

@ReignbowSmite No it isn't and if people keep pushing it there's going to be, shall we say, a 'teachable moment'. I've given my fair warning and now I will depart before the shit storm starts *fleeing to undisclosed location*

[debrmck]

@HeavyTrafficAhead Black person here. Yeah it's the same thing.

[GreatG0dOm]

@HeavyTrafficAhead I agree. I heard racial example of "if a black man scared a white woman", which is really flat out racist. I figured that maybe a black man in the deep South in 1950s passing white men who say "Hey boy" might be closer to a comparison, if someone wanted to use race. So does the black man think they are KKK or Quakers? Google Schrodinger's Rapist for a woman's calculations on who is safe or not.

[WildwoodClaire1]

I suspect that you and I differ in our view of a certain recent event; however, I think you make valid points. I would add a couple of things that I've discovered in discussing feminist issues on YouTube. One is that "feminist" means radically different things to different people, and for some it is a merely a pejorative label that substitutes for actual thinking. I've also learned that nuance is invaribly lost in debate and ones views are always crudely caricatured by someone opposing.

[RedPenguins01]

Sorry, but the vocal feminists really dragged a non issue out and got what they asked for. And how did the guilty party respond to this, with boycotts and claims of misogyny. I agree that the language should be respectful, but really I think both sides are guilty of this. As for the other points, I haven't seen any reasonable people use 3 and 4. 5 was a complete overreaction, and if you think it wasn't you can point to reputable yearly rape statistics by strangers to prove your point then.

[SAsgarters]

All men are rapists herp derp.

[Al1981X]

Who is claiming 4 & 5 ? Not all critics of Watson can be tarred with the same brush. Every argument I've seen taking Watson's 'side' in that business has been a strawman as far as my points are concered, but I'm really sick of it all now.

[LasraelLarson]

When dealing with thoughts, it's just simple categorization & analysis of the facts. Nuts & bolts sort of stuff.

When dealing with feelings... things change.

Everyone wants to feel good, appreciated, of worth & so on. Absolutely nothing wrong with striving for an equitable share.

Broad Generalization:

- Men have owned the mind, whilst women have been relegated to the feelings.

Guy asks, what were you thinking? Women says, don't you know how this feels?

& the rift rules the day.

[christinepeace]

I am so sad. Women in Eygpt went out to protest in the same square were both men and women fought for freedom, and these women were run off by those same men they supported just months ago.

Cheers Christine

[perodjetlic]

I think you are confusing youtube and youtube comments section.

[tattooskin72]

I think the big problem is this forum and honestly... the more vocal feminists have ruined feminism here on YouTube. I have to agree with socrates856.

[Celephais42]

*shiny. Damn auto-correct

[Celephais42]

Nellie, I adore you and your videos and fully support the notion of equal rights for EVERYONE

BUT

Feminism, almost by definition, creates several big red buttons labeled "do not touch", which the trolls come and push, because even fail trolls can work with shiner well labeled buttons.

Then this gets conflated as "wide-spread sexism". And I simply don't agree.

[QuantumDarkness]

When I see someone mischaracterizing and abusing someone who mentions sexism, I have to wonder about the credibility of their other videos.

[Divinity33372]

Couldn't have said it better. 

[TheMudbrooker]

All excellent points, and I agree.

That doesn't mean I'll stop calling Michelle Bachmann a stupid cunt.

[CriminalQueer]

I didn't think I could adore you more.

You proved me wrong.

Thank you so much for this.

CQ x

[terrarising]

Excellent summation, Nellie.

[StanMarsh1]

It's one thing or another isn't it, we have a long way to go.

[Afriboy10]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[socrates856]

There is a lot of really wonderful feminism out there, but I dare say a lot of it does not pervade the YT atheist circles. I really wish there was more discussion about post-structural feminism, queer theory, and more. Or just more deliberate reflection what equality and egalitarianism really is and how to take it seriously.

But YT surely is not a very fertile place to discuss difficult or subtle topics, or worse topics that some will want to polarize for various reasons.

[FelidaTheG33k]

Nellie, I love you! You summed it up to the point!

[DeeDemonwitch]

yep, pretty sums it up

[TheRecoveringZombie]

A-fuckin'-men! Also, if you even dare to breathe the word 'feminist' or 'feminism,' your video will be invaded by MRAs and garden variety misogynists.

[GreatG0dOm]

@TheRecoveringZombie From all this I have learned feminist terminology including "MRA", "male privilege" and "sexual objectification".