Thief on the cross vs LDS baptism for the dead

[FormerMPSGT]

Baptism does not save and Baptism of the Mormon Cult for the Dead. The Cult of Mormon is totally wrong; to give them any validity is wrong. They dont understand Sin & Righteousness; they equate it to Good & Bad. In other words Morals: Morals change with society but God's word cannot be reinterpreted or changed an example is the 10 Commandments not the 10 Suggestions! A Cult takes away from the Godhead or adds to or takes away from the Bible! Calling the Bible corrupted when it disagrees CULT!

[Trumpetnerd34]

so do you believe that the Garden of Eden is heaven? and after we die and before judgement if we were of great faith we could walk with god? I am sorry if I am misunderstanding, but weren't we also shut out from Eden by an angel with a flaming sword. do you believe that those who went to "heaven" skip judgement day?

[thelion44]

The man is clueless. He is obviously in a fog. "Me thinks he doth protest too much." But what the heck, who's listening anyway? I didn't finish it.

[Prothink2]

Great, mormons and Jews teaming according to LDS website. Jews are the seeds of satan as Jesus said John 8:44. Guess LDs forgot what Jesus warned about.

JESUSWASNOTAJEW . COM

[shutupstupid9]

 sacerdos, sacrorum antistes

[encoresurterre]

I can't find it in any of this discussion but what about 1 Cor 15:29?

Speaking of the need for baptism needed before resurrection... 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

And he wasn't talking about baptising dead bodies but by proxy.

Also there is 1 Peter 3:19 "[Jesus] preached unto the spirits in prison (was the theif there too?)...whereunto even baptism doth also now save us"

[rodwyr]

V. 29 says why are THEY baptized for the dead, not WE. In the greek, the word for baptized is present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or THEY ARE BAPTIZED. Some of the Corinthians at that time were influenced by pagan rituals, like baptism for the dead and baptism in the sea (guarantee of a good afterlife).

[encoresurterre]

rodwyr

I found some more references for you.

Romans 13:2, 1 Cor 11:2 and 1 Pet 3: 21.

All indicate need for ordinances and salvation.

[latterdaymystic]

@encoresurterre Read Ephesians 2:13-16. The Mormon LDS church is the great and abominable church of Satan foretold of in Revelation to beware of and not follow FALSE prophets. I was a 50 year member and recently left that evil brainwashing cult that destroy families and holds you in their emotional bondage that makes it so hard to leave "the fold". But Jesus said the truth shall make you free. He is leading people out of that false religion by the thousands in these last days.

[encoresurterre]

@latterdaymystic The great and abominable church of satan is the world. The world is against Christ and seeks to destroy anyone one that declares Jesus is the Christ. I declare it to you, Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ.

So, in 50 years you didn't get it. Yeah, I can understand that. It takes a LOT of work to learn and repent. Too bad you didn't have the patience. It took me 51 years to figure it out. Now I'm stronger than ever. Hey, enjoy paradise, it's great!

BTW viewers/readers: 2 Cor 12:2.

[NoneBeforeNoneAfter]

What about the ONE who was caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN which is PARADISE? First is the Blue Sky, Second is the Universe or where the Stars are. Third is Beyond that. The Third heaven cannot be accessed by Humans or Satan. This Heaven has no BOUNDARY no height limits, no width limits. Heaven is a Spiritual Place, no Flesh and Bone, which has many more dimensions than this universe.

[LukeAir2008]

Christ says: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:6)

Shawn says: You don't need baptism,

Who are you gonna believe?

Jesus said: Take heed that no man deceive you! (Matt 24:4)

[rodwyr]

1 Corinthians 1:17-"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect"

Did Paul lie?

[LukeAir2008]

Did Paul lie about what? That he was an Apostle, a special witness of Christ, and his calling was to testify of Christ to all the world? No he didn't lie. There are only 12 Apostles but 1000's of Priests, Elders and High Priests who can all baptize. Even though Paul had met Christ on the road to Damascus he still had to report to Ananias to be baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Former Day Saints (Acts 9:10-18)

[LukeAir2008]

Did Paul baptize? Yes he did if the need arose. (Acts 19:1-6) He also confirmed members of the church and gave the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. But again his calling was an Apostle, a Special Witness of Christ to all the world. He held all of the keys and acted under the direction of Peter, the Senior Apostle, who acted under the direction of Christ.

[LukeAir2008]

Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God (Collosians 1:1)

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an Apostle, separated unto the gospel of God (Romans 1:1)

Note: Paul was called and set apart as an Apostle. He didn't take this honour to himself. He was called by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority - Peter and the other Apostles. The same as in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints today.

Repent and prepare for baptism!

[LukeAir2008]

Who are you going to believe?

Shawn the Apostate or Paul the Apostle?

[LukeAir2008]

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6:3-5)

[LukeAir2008]

Yes Shawn lets use the Bible shall we?

Jesus on Friday : To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)

Jesus on Sunday: Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: (John 20:17)

Did Christ forget where he'd been since Friday or was he trying to deceive Mary Magdalene? I know your god tolerates wickedness but our God has no darkness in Him.

[LukeAir2008]

Shawn why do you deceive your audience. Baptism by immersion is a requirement of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Its how one enters the church of Christ. It is Christs requirement for those who come unto him. Its free. It requires no sacrifice. Why do you reject Christ's free gift?

[uSoBayArea]

..With parables and quotes from the Bible aside.

I'd like to comment on the gift that our Lord and Savior blesses upon the Thief of whom repented of his sins to our Lord and Savior.

> Today, you will be with me in paradise.

....If it is with Jesus Christ than it must be Heaven.

[mormonmilitia]

Acts 10: 48

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord....

Matt 20: 22

But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

[mormonmilitia]

Acts 2: 38, 41 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

[GTStevo]

My apologies, Mekelsior, I misread your original statement. I thought you were saying that the thief needed to be go through the baptism of the dead ritual that LDS preach in favor of.

Also, mormonmilitia, Jesus was baptized to set an example for others. Water baptism in the Christian faith is a recognition/announcement to everyone (including yourself) that you have taken up the cross and will walk with Christ. It most certainly does *not* save you. You can be baptized as many times as you want

[no1djkamilo]

im not a mormon but the baptism as an announcement is not taught in scripture, there are however gospel related promises in baptism. the reformers believed this although without faith baptism accomplishes absolutely nothing, and you can indeed be saved without baptism but the baptism is not law (a demand) rather it's gospel (a promise)

[Mekelsior]

You may also say that Jesus baptized to fullfill prophecy, to be annointed also that He baptized for all those that were unable for some reason to be baptized, ie children that would die an all to early death.

It is a saving relationship with Christ that matters, that He truly knows us as a friend, that we spend time with Him, that we sit by His feet and listen to His words, that we have a communication with Him, every day and every moment.

[Mekelsior]

The thief at the cross has still not ascended to heaven, this because the resurrection of the dead have not yet happened. As Paul writes in 1 th 4:13-18 on the last day, ALL the dead in Christ will rise first, and together with the living saints will be caught up.

Paul had a vision of heaven, (the man he is speaking of is most likely himself)

The parable of the rich man and lazarus, does not speak of real life, as it is a parable.

[GTStevo]

Christ specifically said "you're coming with me."

No rituals needed, God Himself said "he's with me," which bumps the thief to the front of the line.

When God/Christ says so, it is to be so.

[Mekelsior]

True, God looks at the heart. We should not avoid to baptize however, but to baptize for the dead is not correct.

[truthseeker1973]

Regarding the rich man and Lazarus as a parable, no parables ever use the names of actual people, therefore it is not a parable.

[Mekelsior]

The Bible claims its a parable and I dont think its written anywhere in the Bible that a parable cannot mention names. It is still a parable and it still does not portray anyone going to heaven or paradise right away. Paradise is heaven by the way.

[truthseeker1973]

No the Bible does not claim its a parable. Please share if you say it does. No parables in the Bible, the ones that actually do claim to be a parable, use actual names of actual people. You can come to your own conclusion, to support your belief, or you can use the Bible to determine what the facts are.

[Mekelsior]

"And he spake this parable unto them, saying,.." Lk 15:3. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the last of many where Jesus talks with the pharasees and saudecees. So yes, according to the Bible it is a parable.

[truthseeker1973]

Nice try. The verse says 'this parable'. Immediately following that is the parable of the lost sheep. The headers in the KJV show 4 parables in total. It does not label the rich man and lazarus as one. Using the Bible as a whole, you would not come to the conclusion it is a parable. What is it that drives you to believe it is. You don't want to believe in Hell?

[Mekelsior]

It is clearly that we disagree on this matter, you are the first christian Ive met who claim its not a parable. I guess the story of the progdial son is not a parable either then, or the story of the 100 sheep, or the silver coin? The Bible was not written with chapters and verses, or headlines, its an ongoing story.

Regarding hell? Hell is not a place that exist yet, it is a future and final judgement that will happen after the millenium, when Jesus returns to earth with the saints.

[truthseeker1973]

I am the first Christian eh? I don't believe you one bit on that one. The parables you describe are of the 4 I described. I suppose we are to believe everything Jesus said after Luke 15:3 are parables? The headers regard what the consensus has always been and currently is. Headers are not the written word, as you say, but they are significant in what was believed.

A temporary place of torment exists. It's called 'Sheol', or 'Hades' in the NT. Easy to prove Biblically.

[truthseeker1973]

Besides that you can't show me a parable with direct indication it is a parable that uses the names of real people. Anywhere.

[no1djkamilo]

truthseeker is right many saints of the church have pointed this out in previous centuries, another thing to look to in the "parable" is that Lazarus has a name, while the rich man is nameless. This has importance since Jesus exhorts his disciples not to rejoice in the miracles they performed but in that their names were written in heaven, and elsewhere (mat7)warns that he will say to some in the last day "I never knew you". The apostle talks of the names written in the lambs book of life also.

[CutintheHeart]

Mormon Doctrine (In Parable): In Order to go to heaven.... you must.. 1. Obtain a golden goose egg. 2. Climb Mount Everest. 3. Reach the Ocean Depths with a sub. 4. Walk on the moon. 5. Eat w/ the hottest hot sauce without water. 6. Run around naked in times square. 7. Steal 20 bucks from your mother. 8. Drive on the wrong side of the street. 9. Fly on the wings of a bald eagle. 10. Sail around the world. 11. Fly around the world. ..20. Say I am Holy 31 times fast. ...10928. Eat 5,000 burgers.

[GTStevo]

I lol'd @ CutintheHeart! XD

[mormonmilitia]

I use the Bible to show others that their doctrines are not biblical, as they accuse LDS theology of the same.

Jesus Christ, Himself was baptized by water. That, in itself should settle all controversy.

where did Peter say that water baptism would not save?

[Exodus314IAM]

Peter makes reference to baptism in Acts 2:38, yet he makes no reference to it in Acts 3:12-26. Instead he refers to sin and forgiveness in Christ for salvation.

Paul never made water baptism part of the salvation message. He even emphasizes in 1 Corinthians 1:17 that he was sent to preach the gospel and does not mention baptism.

[mormonmilitia]

read the rest of Corinthians 1 . Paul baptized Crispus, Gaius and the house of Stephanus. Why would the blessed apostles even mention baptism if it was not required for salvation? I would think that unnecessary baptsims would be mockery to God, yet Jesus, himself was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness."

[Exodus314IAM]

Jesus was baptized so he could enter into the Melchizedek priesthood so He could be the High Priest and offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:8-10; 6:20)

To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be:

Washed with water (Leviticus 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matthew 3:16).

Anointed with oil (Leviticus 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matthew 3:16).

Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism.

[mormonmilitia]

That's a pretty good answer, but John the Baptist only held the Aaronic priesthood, and he baptized others before he baptized the Savior. Jesus Christ was the first to hold the Melchizedek priesthood during his own dispensation.

[Exodus314IAM]

If Jesus is out High Prest forever, why would you need one in your church? Is Jesus not enough? You need a week man to fill the gap? (Read Hebrews 5:5-10; 6:19-20; 7:.20-28; 9:15-10:21)

If you think Jesus is not enough, then there would be a big problem. As you all like to put out, "we are the Church of Jesus Christ" so then live by thoughs words! Seek the truth in what they are telling you, or the lack there of.

God Bless!

[encoresurterre]

Exodus314IAM

As the Bible says, Jesus did it to fulfill all righteousness and said also that it becomes us to do so as well to fulfil all righteousness. See Matt 3:15

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

[rodwyr]

Baptism in the N.T. is like circumcision in the O.T. It didn't save them, but it was the sign of the covenant.

Romans 1:16-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

To everyone that BELIEVES. So what is the gospel? 1 Cor. 15:1-14 answers that.

Also, feel free to read Acts 10:44-48. The people were speaking in tongues BEFORE being baptized, and tongues is a spiritual gift.

[encoresurterre]

rodwyr

The gospel was the subject in the first two references but the entirety of it was not given there. As in 1Cor15 he is referring to the gospel that was preached already to them he addressed just as do not expound on an entire gospel when ever we refer to any part of it.

Acts 10, Peter was there teaching in the authority of his calling. Even if the priesthood had not been there the fruits of the spirit are available to all that believe. That does not mean that they were saved.

[rodwyr]

So where is the rest of the gospel to be found if the entirety is not found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4? The gospel is summed up for me right there. Why not for you?

1 Cor. 2:14 says that natural men do not accept the things of the Spirit of God. So, the passage in Acts says that the people being referred to had the Holy Spirit poured upon them, so they HAD to be saved because the people were speaking in tongues. So, were they saved BEFORE the baptism, or not?

[encoresurterre]

Okay rodwyr, now you're confusing me.

I just re-read Acts 10 and when I got to 47 and 48 it is very clear that baptism was a requirement.

" 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And **he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord**."

You might rely on one or two verses as a defense at the judgement bar, as for me I'll take all scripture for my defense.

[rodwyr]

To save space, I'll answer both posts on this one as much as I can. 1 Peter 3:21 says NOT of putting away filth of the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience. It's a covenental sign, like circumcision in the O.T. Circumcision didn't save them. Same thing with Acts 10. They had the Holy Ghost BEFORE they were baptized. Again, the baptism was the sign of the covenant. They baptized out of obedience. By telling me baptism is necessary for salvation, it undermines Jesus' sacrifice

[Exodus314IAM]

So are you saying we are justified by what we do and not by faith? I do agree that Baptism is important but if you cannot be for some reason you are not doomed. You see its our faith that is what saves us not our doings. (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8) and not by faith and a ceremony (Romans 4:1-11).

God Bless!

[encoresurterre]

Exodus314IAM

Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But **without faith it is impossible to please him**: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that **he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.**

That is what I believe about faith.

Baptism is essential by proper authoriity. See Acts 19:3-5 more if interested

[Exodus314IAM]

If "authority" or "priesthood" had been the issue in Acts 19:1-5, John's baptism should have been valid since John was born into Aaronic Priesthood lineage (Luke 1:5-13). Surely John had "authority" since he baptized Jesus (Matthew 3:13-17). The Aaronic Priesthood had been superseded by Jesus, the Great High Priest (Hebrews 7:11-12). Therefore, John never once mentioned his priesthood. Neither John nor Jesus taught that priesthood or "athority" was necessary in order to baptize!

[TheLogos1]

@Exodus314IAM Jesus had to be baptized by John the Baptist because he was a prophet, not because he had special priesthood authority. The reason for this was the Davidic Kings were made High Priests by way of a prophet. Since Jesus was a Davidic King, he had to become a High Priest in the Eternal Royal Priesthood by means of a prophet.

[shutupstupid9]

@Exodus314IAM Holy Orders : (Exodus 19:4-6), ... This is attested by the belief in a special priesthood

Christ is "a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech" (Hebrews 7:6; Psalm 109:4) Hebrews 5:1: "for every high priest taken from among menhe may be a member of a hierarchy, or, on the contrary, may exercise an independent priesthood (e.g. Melchisedech, Hebrews 7:1-33)

[mormonmilitia]

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians was written after the death, resurrection, and ascension of the Savior.

Once again, Shawn is dead wrong.

[Exodus314IAM]

Not sure how this goes against what Shawn said here, Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Where is the conflict? How does this go against Shawn, explain.

[mormonmilitia]

The verse implies that baptism was still practiced after the death, resurrection, and ascension of the Savior. Paul was a convert, so if baptism was no longer necessary, why would he even mention it? And why was the Savior, being perfect, baptized?

[Exodus314IAM]

First you need to figure out if it is talking about water or Spirit baptism. The unities listed here have a certain emphasis on the supernatural. Water baptism on the other hand is performed by man.

If water baptism is Needed, why not mention the other sacrament, the Lords Supper?

[dimtry19]

..Mormons need to review how Jesus tells us through the stiory of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16:26 that there is a great gulf FIXED between the living and the dead that CANNOT be crossed neither to nor from..the day of salavation is NOW.(2 Cor.6:2) ..through their profane baptism of the dead (practiced by Gnostics, Marcionites and other heretics who baptized corpses ) the mormon church is clainiing it can cross that gulf...thsts blasphemy to appoint themselves "vicarious saviors"...