'Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick and commanded to be well. And over us, to supervise this, is installed a divine North Korea. Greedy for uncritical praise from dawn until dusk and swift to punish the original sins with which it so tenderly gifted us in the very first place. However, let no one say there's no cure: salvation is offered, redemption is promised, at the low price of the surrender of your critical faculties'
@FryderykFChopin ...into the gates of Heaven so it must go to hell. The criteria was set to those rebellious against God. "No different to someone holding a gun to your head" - God isnt forcing you to make any decision. You could live you're whole live without sinning, we all could. We just choose not to. If you percieve a gun to your head its your own fault, trying to make sense out of why you sin, not actually God's doing.
@GermanConquistador08 'God isnt forcing you to make any decision.' Of course someone holding a gun to your head isn't forcing you to make any decision. God holds the gun. God pulls the trigger. He kills you. Don't give me that euphemism that you kill yourself. Its so obviously misleading that its pathetic.
@FryderykFChopin However, its easy to blame others, human or God, for the choices we make if they're the wrong ones, just as you blame God for the choices youre making right now, living in sin of any kind. "someone holding a gun to your head" -And do you know who IS holding the gun to your head? Yourself, and you're pretending its God because that means you're not responsible for your own actions. You're doing the thing many atheists claim Christians do, ignoring responsibility.
@GermanConquistador08 'And do you know who IS holding the gun to your head?' I certainly know who made the gun and whose decision it was to pull the trigger and as you seemed to have conceded that God is responsible for creating hell as well as the criteria by which he will pull the trigger. We don't make the decision to kill ourselves. He does.
@FryderykFChopin "I certainly know who" -Well you ignored literally my entire arguement on the matter so I'll say again. It is YOU who holds this imaginary gun which at this point has lost its context in this situation. There is no gun!! Its not even a correct anology at this point. And if you've honest got this image of God personally holding a gun to your head, I'm sorry but that is insane; its baseless and is really a bad sign for your mental state on the topic of religion.
@FryderykFChopin look this is NOT rocket science. You either live by society's rules or there are consequences. same as God and creation. Simple rules. Live by them or pay the consequences the choice IS YOURS. NO ONE is holding any gun to your head for anything.
@FryderykFChopin "God holds the gun. God pulls the trigger. He kills you." - How so? This entire anology is a completely baseless projection. "give me that euphemism that you kill yourself. Its so obviously misleading that its pathetic." -How? Again, human's free will destroys the entire argument. Explain how its God that forces you to sin otherwise you're entire arguement is mute.
@FryderykFChopin "is installed a divine North Korea" - To call God anologus to North Korea is wrong on every level and to insult the intelligence of anyone versed in history. North Korea was established and puppeted by the USSR. And God allows you total freedom when you're on earth, its after your death does he dish out the concequences of the life you lived. North Korea regulates every single aspect of your life and your only ESCAPE is death. North Korea is the OPPOSITE of God in this respect.
@FryderykFChopin "Greedy for uncritical praise" - God doesnt DEMAND praise. Christians dont praise God because we are commanded to, it is a reaction to the creature before its creator. A son before his father, a prince before his king. "original sins with which it so tenderly gifted us' - God didnt give humans original sin.The decendents of Adam and Eve were gifted original sin by the actions of their parents.
@FryderykFChopin "Man was created in God's image" - You forget one vital piece of information into that equation. "we were created sick" -NO but we were created with something unique: Free moral agency, a choice. Mankind had the opinion at all times to rebel against God. You could call that free will sickness, but without it we would be slaves to God and its the reason why your "holding a gun to your head" anology falls apart before it begins. Humans have a choice in everything they do.
@GermanConquistador08 I rest my case. We are created sick and then ordered to be well for he so tenderly gifted us a flaw so that we would fall. Nor have you addressed the fact that perfect beings would make perfect choices. Free will is so often used as a get out of jail card by Christians. To say that we have free will because we have no choice but to have it given to us by the boss is a lack of freedom and totalitarian by definition.
@FryderykFChopin "God is responsible for creating hell as well as the criteria" -Its easy to hold onto your worldview when you ignore all of the oppositions arguements isnt it? God created hell FOR the devil and his angels. He never intended to give hell to humanity, we were never suppose to be able to go there. But we rebelled against God. It doesnt seem that unreasonable, if you sin without being forgiven on it, you go to Hell. That is NOT an unreasonable expectation.
@GermanConquistador08 ' God created hell FOR the devil and his angels.' This is a red herring which does not in any way impede upon my contention. 'YOU who holds this imaginary gun'. The only way you can say that you shoot yourself is to say that you are responsible for the criteria by which you pull the trigger and on the Christian view, you're not.
@FryderykFChopin In fact, by that logic about free will, theres no reason to even continue this debate because we're both doing it by pure chemical impuses in our brains and theres really no reason to argue because both of us will believe, or dis-believe due solely to our condition. "for the criteria by which you pull the trigger" -By this point, the gun anology doesnt hold up because there is no criteria for firing a gun other than pulling a trigger. Enough with that, its silly at this point.
@FryderykFChopin "We are created sick" -If you are calling free moral agency sickness than I'm sorry you're unwell. If you honestly would enjoy mental slavery over the free will to love God or hate him than you're just a damn hypocrite I'm sorry but thats the case. "so that we would fall" -This is classic projection, ignoring all resonsibility over your life and playing it completely on God. Come on man, not even Christians do that but here we have an atheist blaming it all on God.
@FryderykFChopin "that perfect beings would make perfect choices" - Why was humanity allowed to make that choice to fall is what I'm hearing. Simple: God didnt want slaves. Unless there was the option to make the wrong decision to disobey and rebel against God than we would have been slaves in Eden. Love is only availble if the option to NOT love is there too. Youre getting hung up on the perfect beings idea, when its contradictory in this case. Slavery or the option to do wrong.
@GermanConquistador08 'Unless there was the option to make the wrong decision to disobey and rebel against God'. Sure, I'll even grant you that 'option' but tell me, how can a being created in the image of a deity that cannot do wrong in other words perfect, do something that is imperfect. To say that beings that cannot do wrong can do wrong is no different to saying that God exists and does not exist at the same time. Its a blatant logical contradiction.
@FryderykFChopin "how can a being created in the image of a deity that cannot do wrong in other words perfect, do something that is imperfect" - Because it was given the choice to. Made in the image and likeness of God, but as said Saint Michael "Who is LIKE God?" The answer is nothing, and nobody. And again, what is more imperfect than a slave? Either God takes the risk of rebellious, or does something ungodly. Chronologically, man doesnt fall for a LONG while after he is created.
@GermanConquistador08 I said I'll even grant you that man had the choice between good and evil that still does not change the fact that man - created in the image of god (who is perfectly good and would make perfectly good choices) would similarly make perfectly good choices. Unless you are willing to concede either 1. that the perfect being created from a perfect deity can do something imperfect, or 2. that god created an imperfect man (already a contradiction).
@FryderykFChopin "that god created an imperfect man" -Well right there you've got the imperfection. A perfect being wouldnt have had to BE created, they would have already been, anything less than perfect isnt perfect. You're judging perfection by your own standard 1. And 2. You're assuming that the image of God meanings complete likeness of God, which isnt the case. Its not a contradiction, you're just mixing up your terminology.
@GermanConquistador08 'anything less than perfect isnt perfect'. There we go, you've just conceded my point. In other words, man was created imperfect. I ask you how is that possible when the creator is perfect? Perfect creator creating an imperfect being. Saying that man is created and god is not doesn't change a thing. 'you're just mixing up your terminology.' No I'm not, you're obfuscating the terminology. Its quite straightforward.
@FryderykFChopin to be made in the image of is not the same as and exact replica thereof. my child can be the exact image of me, yet that child is NOT me. there's not different with God the Father, or you and one of your parents or family members
@MomoTheBellyDancer "And whose fault is that? Who created Satan?" - God did yes this is true, and he created many other thousands of angels. But they all had free will, the free will to follow or obey God. Satan was first rebel against God, taking with him many other angels and eventually humanity. But to blame God for Satan's merely undercuts humanities role in the fall, Satan hated humans, they're the reason he rebelled in the first place.
So your god grants people free will, and then gets all upset when they act upon it. What the heck for? What is the use of granting free will, only to demand it to be surrendered? Why couldn't your god delight in his creation standing on its own feet, discovering things on their own? He behaves like a parent who locks his children in the basement.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "So God is in error. Thanks for confirming that" -Thanks for being immature. Seriously, if you're going to cut a quote out of context and then ignore the entire explaination, you have no place in discussion of serious matters. "So your god grants people free will, and then gets all upset when they act upon it" - Yes, that makes perfect sense! Think of it in human terms. We all have free will and exercising it in an inappropriate way has concequences.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "They're nothing but stories made up by bronze-age goat herders." - And ultimately thats ALL atheists have, to fall back on Dawkins-esc historical revisionist NONSENSE. Goat-herders? And I suppose the Roman senate were just blacksmiths and leather-tanners to you elitist atheists eh? The bible is a HISTORICAL DOCUMENT! Kings and Princes, scribes and prophets. Goat-herders? Hardly so, but I suppose since they werent all scientists they dont mean much huh? Pathetic man.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "What the heck for?" - Because using your free will to do wrong has consequences. "What is the use of granting free will, only to demand it to be surrendered?" - Youre NOT demanded to surrender it. This is a very basic theological concept. God allows us, now because Jesus so theres no NEED for things like mosaic law and strict disciplinarism to make sure humanity doesnt fall further. You free will exists so you are not a slave to God.
"Because using your? free will to do wrong has consequences."
If your god couldn't accept the consequences, why did he give his creation free will to begin with? Why would it make such a stink at the VERY FIRST SIGN of his creation exercising said free will? Why would it even extend its anger to the descendants of its creation, even though they didn't do anything?
@MomoTheBellyDancer "I do understand all too well" -This is a common atheist tag line, so a person who has lived their lives by the bible, is a believer in Jesus Christ and someone who understands the bible by READING it knows LESS of the theological implications of atheists, who in this case, doesnt understand the concept of free will, Hell, and mosaic law? No sir, that is NOT true. "If your god couldn't accept the consequences" - What consequences? He hasnt done anything wrong
In other words: a person who has been brainwashed by their religion.
"knows LESS of the theological implications of atheists"
This is generally the case. You people simply accept the absurdities posed by your faith, because not doing so would render you "doubters". I have no such restrictions on my mind.
@MomoTheBellyDancer Thats a theological gray area because simply we dont know how many things abou hell which is why its one of the most discussed subjects in theology. "In other words: a person who has been brainwashed by their religion" - No, actually but if you believe that the only way people would disagree with you is that they're brainwashed (somehow?) than that, I'm sorry to say, says more about your worldview than mine. I dont think anything has mental ills if they disagree with me.
@MomoTheBellyDancer Unlike you. Perfect example "This is generally the case" -So, youre claiming to know more about the bible than someone who, in your twisted mind, was brainwashed by it? Think about that for a minute. Some Chinese children are brainwashed in the Communist mold and I have no doubt that they know more about communism than I do, at least its basic principles. You could argue that Christians dont understand the IMPLICATIONS of Christianity, but NOT their basic tenents.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "You people simply accept the absurdities posed by your faith, because not doing so would render you "doubters"" - You know who was a doubter? Moses, Job, Abraham, King David. Paul, Luke, Thomas. THe bible has constant examples of people cursing God, complaining to God, questioning God. And they get answers. Theologians throughout history have asked and debated over the big questions of Christian theology. YOU are the one with the restricted mind if you dont understand this.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "I have no such restrictions on my mind." - You have a WORSE restriction actually, sterotype. The great skeptics of old would LAUGH at how much you believe is true. Brainwashed, doubters? Seriously man? Lets move on. " In the end, it's all HIS fault" - A typical responce, shift the blame. Its not humanities fault, its Gods. Adam said the same thing to God and was swiftly rebuked. Did YOU not eat of the fruit I commanded you not to? Whose fault is it really?
@MomoTheBellyDancer It is humanity who attempts to cast blame on GOD for his actions. "did he give his creation free will to begin with?" -I told you twice but I'll tell you again, because free will and choice is the difference between slavery and a parental relationship between God and humanity. I wonder why you find it better for God to WITHOLD free will, than to have it. And you call bs on humanities actions and try to tie it to Gods, lets get that straight.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Yes, there's that too. As a matter of fact, he is assuming all kinds of things without evidence" -Yo man, right here. Thats truely a mark of an ignorant person, essentially leaning over the proverbial shoulder and commenting to someone else how they feel about the person in front of them. Also, I'm sorry if you dont understand that free will exists, you have no place in intellectual conversation any more than if you dont understand that GRAVITY exists. Moving on
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Jesus said himself that he was there to uphold the old laws" -This is what I'm talking about. You claim to know more than I on bibilical matters yet atheists still cant even get this basic theological position right. Its pathetic. Jesus in that very chapter, SUMMERIZES the laws that he keeps and does it constantly throughout the new testiment. He speaks of a new covenent, a new set of laws, and keeping the old laws until "ALL BE FULFILLED!"
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Actually, there are Christians who disagree with you." - I'm sure there are, but the majority dont and the majority of the clergy and intellectual elite of the church don so I think I'm good there on popularity man. "Threatening someone with eternal torture" -Ok I explained this alright, hell isnt eternal torture what it is a place away from God that happens to have Satan and his demon in here and you dont have God's protection so they can do what they will to you.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "discovering things on their own?" - He has, and he does to this day. He cares about his creation though. Jesus is the proof of that. "He behaves like a parent who locks his children in the basement." -No, but nice projection. You hit the nail on the head LIKE A PARENT! Because he is. And a parent allows his child reletive freedom but only after they have matured. Jesus was our turning point from infancy to adulthood, reletively speaking thats historically true as well.
That's odd thing to say of a god who lets the vast majority of his creation go to hell in a hand-basket. If there would be a god, he would at the least be uncaring, or perhaps even be downright evil.
"a parent allows his child reletive freedom but only after they have matured"
But your god didn't want people to mature. He condemned them as soon as they tried to. What proper parents would do that?
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Do y ou even read you own holy text? " - Yes, more so than you apperently. Jesus was telling his fellow man in that time to keep the laws, NOT to the gentiles who would accept him, US. Mosaic law was never meant for us and every theologian in Christianity has affirmed that. This is stupid how often CHristians have to explain that to arrogent atheists who think they know more than hundreds of years of theologians do.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "That's odd thing to say of a god who lets' -So what would you rather him do? FORCE people to believe? Seriously, how do you justify that? "uncaring, or perhaps even be downright evil" - Your version of god? Yes is evil. MINE, the God of the bible (a book I actually read, and apperently you dont) is not only NOT evil, but the ultimatle prevaier of GOOD. "But your god didn't want people to mature. He condemned them as soon as they tried to." - In what manner?
@MomoTheBellyDancer Blood is what they had to do with it. The descendants carry the burden of the parents, this is NOT uncommon in ancient society, and even in our own. But then Jesus, problem solved. Thats what I dont get about lot of you atheists, most of your concerns come BEFORE Jesus, and then they get solved by him but you dont know enough of the bible to realize it HA! Also, rebellion isnt relative transgression. You can get killed in the US for that, but what have you.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "No, he should just let people be" - I'm not suprised that the atheist wants to live as though God doesnt exist EVEN IF God exists. Its like irony in a way, if I'm not mistaken. CONNECT the dots man, come on. So God should leave humanity alone and not interact with them. Almost as if he never existed? Think about that, either way you want to live as if God doesnt exist. Its SO PERFECT in its irony. HAHAHA! Moving on.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Demanding worship is the hallmark of a frail ego." -I explained before, worship isnt by command its a reaction of humanity before God, their father. "Telling your people to commit genocide or killing off the whole earth is not GOOD my any means of the definition." - First of all, genocide doesnt apply to CITY-STATES, not a race or ethnicity. And two things 1. The Israelites were attacked first 2. The Canaanite city-states were HORRIFIC! in their society
@MomoTheBellyDancer Human sacrifice, keeping women as pratical sex slaves etc. etc. The Israelites didnt commit genocide, actually READ the bible, cross-reference passages, look up the definitions in original Hebrew and greek and THEN TALK TO ME sir. "burdened them with original sin" -So humanity didnt do anything to DESERVE that? Clearly.
How could one rebel against an omnipotent being? And why DID Satan rebel anyway? Does he know something we don't? Seeing how cruel your god has treated people throughout the Bible, including drowning them all in a worldwide flood, I can imagine that Satan knows some dark secrets about Yahweh.
"humanities role in the fall"
an omnipotent being could easily have prevented all of it.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "How could one rebel against an omnipotent being?" - Easy, we do it everyday. "Does he know something we don't?" - No, humans think like Satan sometimes, that we are better than God, we know more than God, we should BE gods. Satan though the same, and if he couldnt be God and he couldnt kill God, he would destroy his creation. "Seeing how cruel your god has treated people throughout the Bible" - Cruel or sturn? Some pampered modern people cant tell the difference.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "cluding drowning them all in a worldwide flood" - Yeah, destroying all the evil of the world and saving all of the good? SO horrible. The earth was WICKED, it says that for a reason. "I can imagine that Satan knows some dark secrets about Yahweh." - More projection? "an omnipotent being could easily have prevented all of it." - And become the paternal autocrat rather than the enlightened despot? No way. Sorry that God doesnt fit in your little theological box.
So god could have snipped his ethereal fingers and make everything NOT wicked. Also, how could EVERYONE be wicked? Also the little children? And the parents, who loved their children, and were unable to save them from dying a horrible death from drowning?
"become the paternal autocrat rather than the enlightened despot?"
Threatening people with eternal torture for mere unbelief is NOT the hallmark of an "enlightened despot".
@MomoTheBellyDancer Also, BRONZE-AGE? I LAUGH everytiem someone says that. The Bronze-age lasted until the 10th century BC. Most of the bible was written actually in the IRON age and up until classical antiquity if you count the early Christian church after the death of jesus. I love when historically illiterate atheists spew that garbage, bronze-age myth. Stop watching Dawkins and actually crack open a history textbook would ya?
@MomoTheBellyDancer "So god could have snipped his ethereal fingers and make everything NOT wicked" -Yes he could have, if he wanted to throw everyone into slavery and destroy all traces of free will in humanity. But it appers you REALLY like that idea anyways. Is that what you would do if you were God? Well, pardon the expression, but THANK God, you're not Him."so the little children? And the parents, who loved their children" - You idea of a loving parent abandons them after maturity so pfft!
@MomoTheBellyDancer In that case, the phrase "to be made in the image of" means absolutely NOTHING.
Wrong again. To be made in the image of something does not make you the original thing.
"my child can be the exact image of me"
No, it can't. It will always contain the genetic material of both parents.
1 you didn't take the rest of my statement I stated it isn't me only that it could have my exact image and yes it can. As to your very last statement..so does all of creation.
@charann1000 Instead adding in meretricious claims as in not the 'exact replica' - why don't you explain what these differences are b/w humans and God (I presume you would say omnipotence, omnipresence etc) and how these differences vitiates my contention that a perfect being (God) cannot make a mistake hence if he creates something, he would do it perfectly which would result in a perfect creation. Humans are not perfect. There is a contradiction.
@FryderykFChopin "Instead adding in meretricious claims,,,," Here I will take that you want to use meretriious to mean superficially significant. You are the one stuck on the image of God. Just because we as humans were made in His likeness doesn't mean we have all his attributes the same as my children do NOT have all of mine. This is not rocket science either.
@charann1000 'His likeness doesn't mean we have all his attributes the same as my children do NOT have all of mine.' Instead of red herrings why are you so reluctant or even maybe, afraid to challenge my contention. I said explain how these differences in 'attributes' invalidate my contention namely that: a perfect being (God) cannot make a mistake hence if he creates something, he would do it perfectly which would result in a perfect creation. Humans are not perfect. There is a contradiction.
@FryderykFChopin God has free will He gave His children (creation - that would be "us") free will. He gave rules same as society has rules. Adam and Eve decides along with Satan not to follow those rules. When one breaks the rules there are consequences to ones actions = judgement. Choices, free will, consequences. Not a hard concept.Your thinking is to use your word vitiated or faulty yes.
@charann1000 Well done, you have just assumed what you have been asked to prove. We have free will because we just do. Its akin to what many Christians like to say: I believe in the bible because its true, and its true because its in the bible. I have laid out my argument (which remains unchallenged) as to the problem of your free will assertion and unless you address that, there is no discussion to be had.
@GermanConquistador08 No, sorry. We as humans were made in God's image. We were meant (Adam and then Eve) to live in Eden with God. As His children. Satan entered the garden from Heaven usurping God's plan; hense why he's been cast out of heaven (first consequence for actions he's chosen). The "choice" was that Eve chose to listen to satan instead of obeying God's law. The choice all mankind has today. We all have the same consequences they had. So sin entered the world. Prior there was none.
"Satan entered the garden from Heaven usurping God's plan"
And whose fault is that? Who created Satan? Who made it possible for this Satan to enter the garden? Who, despite his supposed omniscience, let this Satan screw up its creation?
And then this god punishes its CREATION, instead of the one messing it up. It even plays cruel games with a man just to make a point to Satan (just read the Book of Job). It all doesn't even make a smidgen of sense.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Who, despite his supposed omniscience, let this Satan screw up its creation?" - And what if God stopped Satan? What if he prevented the fall and protected humans from even the choice of temptation? What is it when you're kept somewhere, ignorantly, without any choice of leaving? Slavery! God wasnt keeping humans as slaves, they had their own moral choices and they made their choice. God's omnipotence also means NOT doing certain things, along with being ABLE to do anything
Then his creation would be saved, and everybody would be happy.
"God wasnt keeping humans as? slaves, they had their own moral choices and they made their choice"
Yet your god got VERY pissed off when they made their choice and punished them for it. And not only them, but ALL of their descendants too, even though they didn't do anything wrong. It just doesn't make any sense.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Then his creation would be saved, and everybody would be happy." -Happy and a slave. God doesnt treat us like a nanny, who ultimately only cares about nothing more than our happiness and survival, he treats us as a parent, how wants us to grow and prosper, learn and expand. Not keep us, as you put it, chained in a basement. "It just doesn't make any sense." - Yeah, things dont make sense when you dont understand them. Try to fix that.
Nonsense. An omnipotent being should be able to devise a plan to keep people both happy AND free. Condemning people to eternal torture simply for not accepting a story without any evidence is NOT the proper way to go about it. It's the way of a psychotic tyrant.
"he treats us as a parent"
Good parents get out of the way, and they don't threaten their children with torture when they don't get worshiped.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "An omnipotent being should be able to devise a plan to keep people both happy AND free" - Does freedom bring YOU happiness? NO it doesnt, freedom allows you to seek your own happiness. Freedom and happiness are contradictory because either you want the freedom to seek your own happiness, or you want God to provide it for you without you having a say so? Are you advocating slavery to God's will? Odd for an atheist but alright.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Condemning people to eternal torture simply for not accepting a story without any evidence" - Well there you go strawman. God isnt condemning anyone. But actions have concequences and if you sin without paying any dues than God CANNOT bring you to Heaven, no one in hell will be there who so desperate want to BE WITH God. And the historical jesus is a fact first of all, and there is A LOT of evidence and reason to accept the story of Jesus as divinity.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "It's the way of a psychotic tyrant" -Not a tyrantanical autocrat, an enlightened despot (at least putting it in human terms) God does nothing for his own sake, he does so for the better of humanity for the salvation of humanity and hes successeded in that regard. "Good parents get out of the way" - Well, than thats simply a different of culture on I and your part. I was born in a very family oriented household, half Mexican just to give you scope. Family stays WITH you.
@MomoTheBellyDancer And for me, and many others, GOOD parents are those who continue to try and protect you and help you WELL AFTER the point where you dont NEED it anymore because they care. Independence does not mean severing ties with anyone who can help you, its being able to help yourself, but having other with you. And Hell isnt torture lets get that straight. Being without God is the only torture. Read the actual bible, not Dante's Inferno ok?
"GOOD parents are those who continue to try and protect you and help you"
And how does kicking someone out of your house for a relatively transgression count as "protect and help"? Not only did that happen, but god cursed the descendants of his children as well, even though they had nothing to do with it.
@MomoTheBellyDancer Seriously, Christians can figure out that its not all God's fault for everything, but you claim that its all the fault of a God, who you dont even believe exists! So again you have two choices, neither are good 1. You're claiming to know more than the vast majority of Christians and great theologians, philosophers of the church etc. or 2. You're projecting this opinion you hold on God himself. Pick one. "even though they had nothing to do with it." - Blood sir, blood.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "And then this god punishes its CREATION, instead of the one messing it up." -You mean...HUMANS? God punished humans pretty good actually. And why not? Sin afterall is the cause of death and suffering which all goes eventually forward to the sufferings of Jesus, but thats WAY ahead of the game. Satan is an angel, with free moral agency. So is humanity and God is not a tyrant who will prevent his creations from interacting with one another.
What for? Just for executing the free will your god gave them in the first place?
"Sin afterall is the cause of death and suffering"
Why would an omnipotent being care about stuff like that? And why would it need to sacrifice itself to itself, just to change a rule it made itself? And it wasn't even a sacrifice anyway, since Jesus is supposed to have come back to life. That whole tale is nonsensical.
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Just for executing the free will your god gave them in the first place?" - Yeah actually. Free will has negatives and positives, use it for good or use it for wrong. I've been over this before. "Why would an omnipotent being care about stuff like that?" -Now that, is a great mystery isnt it? Why would God give his only son to die for us? A love of a creator o his creation. Humans can understand that, or at least they SHOULD.
"Free will has negatives and positives, use it for good or use it for wrong."
What is good and wrong? All those rules by that godhood appear to be rather arbitrary. Why would it even care about being worshiped? Does it have such a frail ego?
"Why would God give his only son to die for us?"
Yes, why would it perform such a completely useless, repugnant act of human sacrifice, and then punish people for not accepting any of it?
@MomoTheBellyDancer "What is good and wrong?" - Evil is a shadow, devoid of something not something in of itself and evil is the lack of God. "Why would it even care about being worshiped?" - He doesnt. What the worship is, is the reaction of people before their creator God, its a reaction not a demanded action. "such a completely useless" -Its not useless, I would love to hear your justification of that statement. "then punish people for not accepting any of it?" -He doesnt.
@MomoTheBellyDancer Satan had as much free will as Eve did. You are obviously one who likes to make up excuses for everything that happens instead of taking responsibility for self and ones own actions it shows in your ideas. I bet you feel sorry for those ppl that say "i beat my child because so n so beat me." It is hogwash, if you know that pain you do NOT inflict it. Take responsibility and take your own punishment for your actions. Instead of blaming everyone else including God.
@GermanConquistador08 You have just merely assumed free will exists. There is a fundamental sense in which free will is impossible, whether determinism is true or not.
1.You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
2. So in order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are
3.But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are
4.So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
@FryderykFChopin And by the way, who are YOU to say what is perfect and what is not? Thats an extremely dangerous ideal if we decide whats perfect on the whims of what we decide it is. "To say that we have free will because we have no choice" -...I dont even..do you know what free will is? Its the CHOICE to do one thing or another. I dont even know what to say. "You have just merely assumed free will exists" -...yeah kinda, most people do because its kind of obvious.
@FryderykFChopin 1. The way you are: The way you are is set, that is true. 2. "you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are" -Thats not true at all and it disproven by simple logic. Two people with the same background, lifestyles, cultures, experiences et.c can mature into two entirely different people. Our life is shaped by two things 1. Experiences 2. How we REACT to those experiences. To say we're hard-wired by our envirnment and upbrining is simply WRONG.
@GermanConquistador08 There is an undeniable human tendency to see ourselves as free and morally responsible beings. But there’s a problem. We also believe - most of us anyhow - that our environment and our heredity entirely shape our characters (what else could?). But we aren’t responsible for our environment, and we aren’t responsible for our heredity. So we aren’t responsible for our characters. But then how can we be responsible for acts that arise from our characters?
@FryderykFChopin "But then how can we be responsible for acts that arise from our characters?" - Well, from a theological perspective: The soul. Humanity has been ingrained the likeness of God. We have been given a moral code, and the following of that moral code, or rather the CHOICE to follow that inkling, that moral code, that image of God, that is the choice we make. Without the soul, we are just flesh machines and NO ONE is responsible for anything they do, biologically speaking.
@GermanConquistador08 What evidence is there that there is a 'soul' and in what ways does it at all affect our character? It has not advanced your rebuttal or might I say, lack of rebuttal, one iota to merely assume what you have been asked to prove. To say that we have a choice because we have a soul, and that we have a soul because we have a choice is akin to saying I believe in the bible because its true, and its true because its in the bible.
@GermanConquistador08 'Thats not true at all and it disproven by simple logic. Two people with the same background, lifestyles, cultures, experiences et.c can mature into two entirely different people.' Try adding identical DNA to mix.
@FryderykFChopin again to my statement below about exact image that I answered for you. even adding in your "identical DNA to the mix" so to speak. there have been cases of complete idential twins with completely different personalities so what is your point? mine is obvious....same image yet not the same and 'free will'
@charann1000 If two beings had exactly identical DNA and exactly the same environment, it would follow logically, that their movements would mirror each other.
@charann1000 1.You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
2.So in order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are — at least in certain crucial mental respects.
3.But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
4.So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
@MomoTheBellyDancer I think atheists should be respected I also believe in hell but dont condemd anyone to it like many believers do this is a respect video as people have tried to point out if you cant understand that then move on with your life Im not saying that out of respect dude get off youtube and make the world a better place or something save a whale I dont know
@MomoTheBellyDancer wrong, just because, as a Christian, one believes in Hell does NOT mean that one "believes", assume (I personally never ass/u/me), or "know" that an individual IS for a fact in Hell no matter how that person lived. That decision is NOT for a Christian to make and that if you and others on these statements would open your ears would've listened is precisely what he was saying. It is NOT for anyone to say. Only God Himself will judge that.
@MomoTheBellyDancer I am I won't judge it as my belief states. Thank you. I do NOT know where he ended up and therefore will NOT state either way that decision as I have stated is God's alone.And so therefore, um, I am sticking by it, as you put it. Maybe you shoud know exactly what my belief tell me or what it is before you assume to tell me I am not standing by it by your preconceived notions of a belief you obviously know little about.
since when was god non existent? this is news to me since you made the claim please give me 100 percent proof he doesnt exist remember you made the claim not me if you cant then well dont insult my story quotes thank and have nice day being bothered by what you believe to be obviously false Merrry almost christmas
@DeJay17Revolution - Well, this is one of the better Christian response videos I've seen. You both seem quite likeable and thoughtful. In fact, this religion business really doesn't suit you at all. You seem too well adjusted.
@papillon7 doubt actually yes I was a skeptic at one time still am just not in the sense most atheists see it, I love questioning things and love interacting with thoughtful open minded people which is what keeps this channel rolling. You may be surprised that many Christians who take Jesus at his word aren't that bad and aren't like the supposed mainstream the media highlights. I consider a believer without doubt is like a body without antibodies
@LogicalStatements1 sorry you made it to easy common dude are we all really that stale???? youtube has taken the humanity out of you so your going to insult someone youve never met? really lol alright thats cool Im more inclined towards atheism when you tell me im stupid just keep using that as your evangelism technique see how that one works
Yahweh/Jesus Justice system is horrible people NEEDS to BELIEVE in him in THIS LIFE or else be torture forever....By the way the belief is for no reason...Why not just forgive people after death Yahweh? Is that to much to ask Yahweh oh so petty creator of the universe?
@MrEmeraldfusion Are you so foolish that you speak about things you don't understand? Despite what you've heard, you can NOT wish or believe your way to heaven.
For a person to be saved from death (e.g. accepted by God), you MUST repent or turn away from sinful behavior. The person MUST seek God's forgiveness through prayer and be washed of their past sins. This is why Christians are baptized. Finally, you MUST continue to live a chaste life and MUST teach this WAY to others.
@ExposingTheHeretic -"you can NOT wish or believe your way to heaven." That's what the bible says, he that believes and is baptized will be saved he that is not will be damned. (Mark 16:16) In another place says to observe all the commandments, and another your under grace to the commandments are only teaching us about God grace the Bible is a big book of pick and choose.
@hungryman211 Man, its a Christian youtube channel. Part of an evangalist's job is to make a sermon about anything. I remember a pastor I met once had a teacher who would give him a random object and force them to preach it, based solely on that object. Its the job of an evangalist, and philosophers to make a lesson out of literally EVERYTHING and ANYTHING! You're offended because we as Chrisitans are trying to use Hitchen's death as a learning experience, as we would for fellow Christians.
@GermanConquistador08 I would respond to your comment but, as is fairly typical of theistic attitudes toward criticism, my comment has been removed. I can't recall what I wrote, however, I usually make a point of not making offensive comments, so I see no reasonable excuse for having my opinion censored. I'm not going to numb my mind further by watching the video again. My apologies for not continuing the discussion with you.
@hungryman211 "as is fairly typical of theistic attitudes toward criticism, my comment has been removed" - Well, seeing as how it literally flew in the face of the video I could understand. And Saying that its "fairly typical" even though it isnt, shows your antagonistic attitude toward the video, which you clearly didnt watch considering your attitude towards it "I'm not going to numb my mind further" - They praised Hitchens, but you're so closed-minded you didnt even notice.
@GermanConquistador08 I would love to argue with you but, as I already said, I can't recall the details of my original comment which has since been removed (unfairly, in my opinion). I will only defend that which I know with certainty - that I did indeed watch the video in its entirety. This is something I have no desire to subject myself to again. As for my comment regarding theistic censorship: again, I can only comment on my own experience, which has been, for the most part, unfair censoring
@hungryman211 "which has since been removed (unfairly, in my opinion)" Well if I remember correct, you insulted these fellows for making a "sermon" out of Hitchens death, which isnt everyone doing? Trying to find lessons in the death of a man both supported and fought against on the intellectual battlefields? "is something I have no desire to subject myself to again" -Its not electro-shock man, come on stop being overdramatic. Its not unfair to censor comments REFUTED by the video itself.
@hungryman211 that was my bad I meant to click the respond button but im not used to the new youtube layout your free to bash us for whatever reason you find satisfying
well I take a break and overnight I see very hateful comments well I aplogize If we offended anyone but we were trying to speak on an issue
Hitchens in the past has said things about wishing people to go to hell and we never wished it opon him so please be respectful were trying to say we are sorry for the friends and family and defending a christian position while doing it before crazy people go on about how people go on about hell in a disrespectful manner
the very fact that you are bringing up the topic of hell in the same video about hitchens death shows how twisted you christards are.,,your just looking for a way to dig your self righteous little claws in. Maybe its because you got annoyed about all the "hitch slaps" your religion received from the great man!
@WELSHREBEL100 You clearly didnt even listen to these guys. They said very clearly that WE DONT KNOW if he's in hell or not, thats not known to us, only to God. These guys were speaking out AGAINST Christians that youre talking about. Are the Christians really the ones twisted here? Especially when it is YOU twisting things? Look in the mirror man, just look.
@GermanConquistador08 thank you because honestly allot of these comments seemed to repeat the same thing what were doing is addressing what Christians will most likely say it without thinking. I understand this is a loss to the atheist community but they should become loose cannons because of it
@DeJay17Revolution I think its just how things go. Divisions between believers and nonbelievers have gotten so splintered that we just kind of assume things about the other side even if they're not true. But its good that we have Chrisitans like you guys that try to mend that divide. Good on you guys! Keep up the good work with these videos.
@GermanConquistador08 thanks again man I truly thsnk you for being a light in the dark here and correcting people were not trying to cause division but pay our respects to a man whom I respected in some ways
@GermanConquistador08 I DID LISTEN TO THE VIDEO RIGHT THROUGH AND I CLEARLY LISTENED. BUT I AM NOT STUPID...THESE GUYS STARTED THE VIDEO SAYING TRAGIC NEWS. IN OTHER WORDS THEY MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THEY WANT TO HONOR THE MAN BUT USE OTHER CHRISTIANS EXPECTED RESPONSE TO BRING UP THE WHOLE HELL TOPIC. YOU MAY BE STUPID BUT I AM NOT GERMANCONQUISTADOR.! IF THEY WANT TO HONOR HIM THEN HONOR HIM. PERIOD! ARE YOU CHRISTIAN? ;o)
@WELSHREBEL100 "BUT USE OTHER CHRISTIANS EXPECTED RESPONSE TO BRING UP THE WHOLE HELL TOPIC. YOU MAY BE STUPID BUT I AM NOT' - First of all, all caps rage? Secondly if you dislike that they brought up the hell topic...welll why? Why is it wrong that they brought up hell? And they did so in order to honor Hitchens saying that Christians who say hes in Hell are wrong. "YOU MAY BE STUPID BUT I AM NOT' - Clearly I am stupid solely for thinking that its ok to say that a man might not be in hell.
@GermanConquistador08 MY CAPS ARE ON TO SAY TO YOU "ARE YOU FUCKING HEARING ME YOU DUMB ASS CHRISTIAN?" ..THATS WHAT YOU ARE RIGHT? YOU DID NOT ANSWER ME WHEN I ASK IF YOU WERE A CHRISTIAN!..HMM WONDER WHY?...I AM AN ATHEIST!...PS..IHAVEJUSTSEEN ALLTHE COMMENTSYOU HAVE LEFT ABOUT THIS VIDEO...ARE YOU OBSESSED? YOU ARE STUPIDBECAUSE YOU REFER TO GOD AND HELL AS IF THEY ARE REAL..YET YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT. YOU ARE A LOSER. NOW FUCK OFF
@WELSHREBEL100 ""ARE YOU FUCKING HEARING ME YOU DUMB ASS CHRISTIAN?"" - I am, but its quite unneccisary. You cant heard over the internet now can you. I pay more attention to it, but you really dont NEED to cap everything. Just put what you want for emphasis and you'll be fine. Besides, its easier to understand in regular type. "YOU DID NOT ANSWER ME WHEN I ASK IF YOU WERE A CHRISTIAN!..HMM WONDER WHY?..." - I didnt think I had to. If its not obvious than thats your failing not mine.
@GermanConquistador08 thats the trouble with U christians. U are so used to making presumptions, you think non believers are that way to. I asked U if U were christian because i did not want to presume U were! And U were obviously trying to avoid admitting U were christian as U wanted to avoid me knowing U had biased views which are quite clear in this case. now fuck off as hard as you can ok? or go get some powdered God in a bag from the vatican. i hear they do good deals for christmas cocaine
@WELSHREBEL100 "avoid admitting U were christian" -I am a Christian. But to be honest, it wouldnt matter if I was an atheist argueing on behalf of Christians, a Jew and Buddhist it honestly doesnt matter, the only thing that matters is the arguements, it doesnt matter whose saying them. "U had biased views" - You use bias about as well as expected. EVERYONE has bias'. YOU have bias' by your own worldview and no ones bias' matters, the only thing that matters is the ARGUEMENTS!
@WELSHREBEL100 "Learn to spell ARGUMENT you idiot" - I'm glad to see you're angry AND intolerent. English isnt my first language, excuse me if my spelling isnt good. "atheist comrades?..you make me siound like a sheep!" -...*cough*"i dont have tribal mentality like you sick fucks. i can deal with people like you...on my own." -Clearly, thats why I'm the only Christian here debating against three atheists at one, atheistexplains, you and fryderyk. And you didnt address anything I said, nice
@WELSHREBEL100 "now fuck off as hard as you can ok?" -You're not doing your atheist comrades any help by being an arse you know that? Trying to get a Christian to stop talking because you dont like their arguements just looks REALLY bad. "i hear they do good deals for christmas cocaine" -..HAHA the Hell are you talking about?
@GermanConquistador08 atheist comrades?..you make me siound like a sheep! which i am not..i am my own person. i dont have tribal mentality like you sick fucks. i can deal with people like you solely on my own.
'Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick and commanded to be well. And over us, to supervise this, is installed a divine North Korea. Greedy for uncritical praise from dawn until dusk and swift to punish the original sins with which it so tenderly gifted us in the very first place. However, let no one say there's no cure: salvation is offered, redemption is promised, at the low price of the surrender of your critical faculties'
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin ...into the gates of Heaven so it must go to hell. The criteria was set to those rebellious against God. "No different to someone holding a gun to your head" - God isnt forcing you to make any decision. You could live you're whole live without sinning, we all could. We just choose not to. If you percieve a gun to your head its your own fault, trying to make sense out of why you sin, not actually God's doing.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 'God isnt forcing you to make any decision.' Of course someone holding a gun to your head isn't forcing you to make any decision. God holds the gun. God pulls the trigger. He kills you. Don't give me that euphemism that you kill yourself. Its so obviously misleading that its pathetic.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin However, its easy to blame others, human or God, for the choices we make if they're the wrong ones, just as you blame God for the choices youre making right now, living in sin of any kind. "someone holding a gun to your head" -And do you know who IS holding the gun to your head? Yourself, and you're pretending its God because that means you're not responsible for your own actions. You're doing the thing many atheists claim Christians do, ignoring responsibility.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 'And do you know who IS holding the gun to your head?' I certainly know who made the gun and whose decision it was to pull the trigger and as you seemed to have conceded that God is responsible for creating hell as well as the criteria by which he will pull the trigger. We don't make the decision to kill ourselves. He does.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "I certainly know who" -Well you ignored literally my entire arguement on the matter so I'll say again. It is YOU who holds this imaginary gun which at this point has lost its context in this situation. There is no gun!! Its not even a correct anology at this point. And if you've honest got this image of God personally holding a gun to your head, I'm sorry but that is insane; its baseless and is really a bad sign for your mental state on the topic of religion.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin look this is NOT rocket science. You either live by society's rules or there are consequences. same as God and creation. Simple rules. Live by them or pay the consequences the choice IS YOURS. NO ONE is holding any gun to your head for anything.
charann1000 1 month ago
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@FryderykFChopin "God holds the gun. God pulls the trigger. He kills you." - How so? This entire anology is a completely baseless projection. "give me that euphemism that you kill yourself. Its so obviously misleading that its pathetic." -How? Again, human's free will destroys the entire argument. Explain how its God that forces you to sin otherwise you're entire arguement is mute.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "is installed a divine North Korea" - To call God anologus to North Korea is wrong on every level and to insult the intelligence of anyone versed in history. North Korea was established and puppeted by the USSR. And God allows you total freedom when you're on earth, its after your death does he dish out the concequences of the life you lived. North Korea regulates every single aspect of your life and your only ESCAPE is death. North Korea is the OPPOSITE of God in this respect.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "Greedy for uncritical praise" - God doesnt DEMAND praise. Christians dont praise God because we are commanded to, it is a reaction to the creature before its creator. A son before his father, a prince before his king. "original sins with which it so tenderly gifted us' - God didnt give humans original sin.The decendents of Adam and Eve were gifted original sin by the actions of their parents.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 'God didnt give humans original sin.'
God's image is perfect
Man was created in God's image
Man's image is perfect
Perfect beings would make perfect choices
But Christians claim that man is imperfect
The only conclusion is that we were created sick
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
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@FryderykFChopin "Man was created in God's image" - You forget one vital piece of information into that equation. "we were created sick" -NO but we were created with something unique: Free moral agency, a choice. Mankind had the opinion at all times to rebel against God. You could call that free will sickness, but without it we would be slaves to God and its the reason why your "holding a gun to your head" anology falls apart before it begins. Humans have a choice in everything they do.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 I rest my case. We are created sick and then ordered to be well for he so tenderly gifted us a flaw so that we would fall. Nor have you addressed the fact that perfect beings would make perfect choices. Free will is so often used as a get out of jail card by Christians. To say that we have free will because we have no choice but to have it given to us by the boss is a lack of freedom and totalitarian by definition.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "God is responsible for creating hell as well as the criteria" -Its easy to hold onto your worldview when you ignore all of the oppositions arguements isnt it? God created hell FOR the devil and his angels. He never intended to give hell to humanity, we were never suppose to be able to go there. But we rebelled against God. It doesnt seem that unreasonable, if you sin without being forgiven on it, you go to Hell. That is NOT an unreasonable expectation.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 ' God created hell FOR the devil and his angels.' This is a red herring which does not in any way impede upon my contention. 'YOU who holds this imaginary gun'. The only way you can say that you shoot yourself is to say that you are responsible for the criteria by which you pull the trigger and on the Christian view, you're not.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
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@FryderykFChopin In fact, by that logic about free will, theres no reason to even continue this debate because we're both doing it by pure chemical impuses in our brains and theres really no reason to argue because both of us will believe, or dis-believe due solely to our condition. "for the criteria by which you pull the trigger" -By this point, the gun anology doesnt hold up because there is no criteria for firing a gun other than pulling a trigger. Enough with that, its silly at this point.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "We are created sick" -If you are calling free moral agency sickness than I'm sorry you're unwell. If you honestly would enjoy mental slavery over the free will to love God or hate him than you're just a damn hypocrite I'm sorry but thats the case. "so that we would fall" -This is classic projection, ignoring all resonsibility over your life and playing it completely on God. Come on man, not even Christians do that but here we have an atheist blaming it all on God.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "that perfect beings would make perfect choices" - Why was humanity allowed to make that choice to fall is what I'm hearing. Simple: God didnt want slaves. Unless there was the option to make the wrong decision to disobey and rebel against God than we would have been slaves in Eden. Love is only availble if the option to NOT love is there too. Youre getting hung up on the perfect beings idea, when its contradictory in this case. Slavery or the option to do wrong.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 'Unless there was the option to make the wrong decision to disobey and rebel against God'. Sure, I'll even grant you that 'option' but tell me, how can a being created in the image of a deity that cannot do wrong in other words perfect, do something that is imperfect. To say that beings that cannot do wrong can do wrong is no different to saying that God exists and does not exist at the same time. Its a blatant logical contradiction.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
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@FryderykFChopin "how can a being created in the image of a deity that cannot do wrong in other words perfect, do something that is imperfect" - Because it was given the choice to. Made in the image and likeness of God, but as said Saint Michael "Who is LIKE God?" The answer is nothing, and nobody. And again, what is more imperfect than a slave? Either God takes the risk of rebellious, or does something ungodly. Chronologically, man doesnt fall for a LONG while after he is created.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 I said I'll even grant you that man had the choice between good and evil that still does not change the fact that man - created in the image of god (who is perfectly good and would make perfectly good choices) would similarly make perfectly good choices. Unless you are willing to concede either 1. that the perfect being created from a perfect deity can do something imperfect, or 2. that god created an imperfect man (already a contradiction).
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "that god created an imperfect man" -Well right there you've got the imperfection. A perfect being wouldnt have had to BE created, they would have already been, anything less than perfect isnt perfect. You're judging perfection by your own standard 1. And 2. You're assuming that the image of God meanings complete likeness of God, which isnt the case. Its not a contradiction, you're just mixing up your terminology.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
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@GermanConquistador08 'anything less than perfect isnt perfect'. There we go, you've just conceded my point. In other words, man was created imperfect. I ask you how is that possible when the creator is perfect? Perfect creator creating an imperfect being. Saying that man is created and god is not doesn't change a thing. 'you're just mixing up your terminology.' No I'm not, you're obfuscating the terminology. Its quite straightforward.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin to be made in the image of is not the same as and exact replica thereof. my child can be the exact image of me, yet that child is NOT me. there's not different with God the Father, or you and one of your parents or family members
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000
"to be made in the image of is not the same as and exact replica thereof"
In that case, the phrase "to be made in the image of" means absolutely NOTHING.
"my child can be the exact image of me"
No, it can't. It will always contain the genetic material of both parents.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "And whose fault is that? Who created Satan?" - God did yes this is true, and he created many other thousands of angels. But they all had free will, the free will to follow or obey God. Satan was first rebel against God, taking with him many other angels and eventually humanity. But to blame God for Satan's merely undercuts humanities role in the fall, Satan hated humans, they're the reason he rebelled in the first place.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"God did yes this is true"
So God is in error. Thanks for confirming that.
"they all had free will"
So your god grants people free will, and then gets all upset when they act upon it. What the heck for? What is the use of granting free will, only to demand it to be surrendered? Why couldn't your god delight in his creation standing on its own feet, discovering things on their own? He behaves like a parent who locks his children in the basement.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "So God is in error. Thanks for confirming that" -Thanks for being immature. Seriously, if you're going to cut a quote out of context and then ignore the entire explaination, you have no place in discussion of serious matters. "So your god grants people free will, and then gets all upset when they act upon it" - Yes, that makes perfect sense! Think of it in human terms. We all have free will and exercising it in an inappropriate way has concequences.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"discussion of serious matters. "
There is nothing serious about any of this. They're nothing but stories made up by bronze-age goat herders.
"Think of it in human terms."
We're talking about an omniscient, omnipotent being here. Why would it even have human emotions? Why would it care what human beings think of it?
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
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@MomoTheBellyDancer "They're nothing but stories made up by bronze-age goat herders." - And ultimately thats ALL atheists have, to fall back on Dawkins-esc historical revisionist NONSENSE. Goat-herders? And I suppose the Roman senate were just blacksmiths and leather-tanners to you elitist atheists eh? The bible is a HISTORICAL DOCUMENT! Kings and Princes, scribes and prophets. Goat-herders? Hardly so, but I suppose since they werent all scientists they dont mean much huh? Pathetic man.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "What the heck for?" - Because using your free will to do wrong has consequences. "What is the use of granting free will, only to demand it to be surrendered?" - Youre NOT demanded to surrender it. This is a very basic theological concept. God allows us, now because Jesus so theres no NEED for things like mosaic law and strict disciplinarism to make sure humanity doesnt fall further. You free will exists so you are not a slave to God.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"Because using your? free will to do wrong has consequences."
If your god couldn't accept the consequences, why did he give his creation free will to begin with? Why would it make such a stink at the VERY FIRST SIGN of his creation exercising said free will? Why would it even extend its anger to the descendants of its creation, even though they didn't do anything?
I call bullshit.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "I do understand all too well" -This is a common atheist tag line, so a person who has lived their lives by the bible, is a believer in Jesus Christ and someone who understands the bible by READING it knows LESS of the theological implications of atheists, who in this case, doesnt understand the concept of free will, Hell, and mosaic law? No sir, that is NOT true. "If your god couldn't accept the consequences" - What consequences? He hasnt done anything wrong
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"a person who has lived their lives by the bible"
In other words: a person who has been brainwashed by their religion.
"knows LESS of the theological implications of atheists"
This is generally the case. You people simply accept the absurdities posed by your faith, because not doing so would render you "doubters". I have no such restrictions on my mind.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Thats a theological gray area because simply we dont know how many things abou hell which is why its one of the most discussed subjects in theology. "In other words: a person who has been brainwashed by their religion" - No, actually but if you believe that the only way people would disagree with you is that they're brainwashed (somehow?) than that, I'm sorry to say, says more about your worldview than mine. I dont think anything has mental ills if they disagree with me.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Unlike you. Perfect example "This is generally the case" -So, youre claiming to know more about the bible than someone who, in your twisted mind, was brainwashed by it? Think about that for a minute. Some Chinese children are brainwashed in the Communist mold and I have no doubt that they know more about communism than I do, at least its basic principles. You could argue that Christians dont understand the IMPLICATIONS of Christianity, but NOT their basic tenents.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "You people simply accept the absurdities posed by your faith, because not doing so would render you "doubters"" - You know who was a doubter? Moses, Job, Abraham, King David. Paul, Luke, Thomas. THe bible has constant examples of people cursing God, complaining to God, questioning God. And they get answers. Theologians throughout history have asked and debated over the big questions of Christian theology. YOU are the one with the restricted mind if you dont understand this.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "I have no such restrictions on my mind." - You have a WORSE restriction actually, sterotype. The great skeptics of old would LAUGH at how much you believe is true. Brainwashed, doubters? Seriously man? Lets move on. " In the end, it's all HIS fault" - A typical responce, shift the blame. Its not humanities fault, its Gods. Adam said the same thing to God and was swiftly rebuked. Did YOU not eat of the fruit I commanded you not to? Whose fault is it really?
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"What consequences?"
The consequences of that your god was doing. In the end, it's all HIS fault, which comes with the territory of being omnipotent and omniscient.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer It is humanity who attempts to cast blame on GOD for his actions. "did he give his creation free will to begin with?" -I told you twice but I'll tell you again, because free will and choice is the difference between slavery and a parental relationship between God and humanity. I wonder why you find it better for God to WITHOLD free will, than to have it. And you call bs on humanities actions and try to tie it to Gods, lets get that straight.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"free will and choice is the difference between slavery and a parental relationship between God and humanity."
Threatening someone with eternal torture does NOT equal granting someone free will. It's a Mafia racket, pure and simple.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer You cannot argue with someone who assumes what they are supposed to prove - namely free will.
FryderykFChopin 1 month ago
@FryderykFChopin
"You cannot argue with someone who assumes what they are supposed to prove - namely free will."
Yes, there's that too. As a matter of fact, he is assuming all kinds of things without evidence.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
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@MomoTheBellyDancer "Yes, there's that too. As a matter of fact, he is assuming all kinds of things without evidence" -Yo man, right here. Thats truely a mark of an ignorant person, essentially leaning over the proverbial shoulder and commenting to someone else how they feel about the person in front of them. Also, I'm sorry if you dont understand that free will exists, you have no place in intellectual conversation any more than if you dont understand that GRAVITY exists. Moving on
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"because Jesus so theres no NEED for things like mosaic law and strict disciplinarism to make sure humanity doesnt fall further."
Nonsense. Jesus said himself that he was there to uphold the old laws. Do y ou even read you own holy text?
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Jesus said himself that he was there to uphold the old laws" -This is what I'm talking about. You claim to know more than I on bibilical matters yet atheists still cant even get this basic theological position right. Its pathetic. Jesus in that very chapter, SUMMERIZES the laws that he keeps and does it constantly throughout the new testiment. He speaks of a new covenent, a new set of laws, and keeping the old laws until "ALL BE FULFILLED!"
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"atheists still cant even get this basic theological position right."
Actually, there are Christians who disagree with you. You will have to take it up with THEM.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Actually, there are Christians who disagree with you." - I'm sure there are, but the majority dont and the majority of the clergy and intellectual elite of the church don so I think I'm good there on popularity man. "Threatening someone with eternal torture" -Ok I explained this alright, hell isnt eternal torture what it is a place away from God that happens to have Satan and his demon in here and you dont have God's protection so they can do what they will to you.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "discovering things on their own?" - He has, and he does to this day. He cares about his creation though. Jesus is the proof of that. "He behaves like a parent who locks his children in the basement." -No, but nice projection. You hit the nail on the head LIKE A PARENT! Because he is. And a parent allows his child reletive freedom but only after they have matured. Jesus was our turning point from infancy to adulthood, reletively speaking thats historically true as well.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
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MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"He cares about his creation though."
That's odd thing to say of a god who lets the vast majority of his creation go to hell in a hand-basket. If there would be a god, he would at the least be uncaring, or perhaps even be downright evil.
"a parent allows his child reletive freedom but only after they have matured"
But your god didn't want people to mature. He condemned them as soon as they tried to. What proper parents would do that?
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
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@MomoTheBellyDancer "Do y ou even read you own holy text? " - Yes, more so than you apperently. Jesus was telling his fellow man in that time to keep the laws, NOT to the gentiles who would accept him, US. Mosaic law was never meant for us and every theologian in Christianity has affirmed that. This is stupid how often CHristians have to explain that to arrogent atheists who think they know more than hundreds of years of theologians do.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "That's odd thing to say of a god who lets' -So what would you rather him do? FORCE people to believe? Seriously, how do you justify that? "uncaring, or perhaps even be downright evil" - Your version of god? Yes is evil. MINE, the God of the bible (a book I actually read, and apperently you dont) is not only NOT evil, but the ultimatle prevaier of GOOD. "But your god didn't want people to mature. He condemned them as soon as they tried to." - In what manner?
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"So what would you rather him do? FORCE people to believe?"
No, he should just let people be, without caring whether they believed in him or not. Demanding worship is the hallmark of a frail ego.
"the ultimatle prevaier of GOOD"
Telling your people to commit genocide or killing off the whole earth is not GOOD my any means of the definition.
"In what manner?"
He kicked them out of the garden and burdened them with original sin.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Blood is what they had to do with it. The descendants carry the burden of the parents, this is NOT uncommon in ancient society, and even in our own. But then Jesus, problem solved. Thats what I dont get about lot of you atheists, most of your concerns come BEFORE Jesus, and then they get solved by him but you dont know enough of the bible to realize it HA! Also, rebellion isnt relative transgression. You can get killed in the US for that, but what have you.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "No, he should just let people be" - I'm not suprised that the atheist wants to live as though God doesnt exist EVEN IF God exists. Its like irony in a way, if I'm not mistaken. CONNECT the dots man, come on. So God should leave humanity alone and not interact with them. Almost as if he never existed? Think about that, either way you want to live as if God doesnt exist. Its SO PERFECT in its irony. HAHAHA! Moving on.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Demanding worship is the hallmark of a frail ego." -I explained before, worship isnt by command its a reaction of humanity before God, their father. "Telling your people to commit genocide or killing off the whole earth is not GOOD my any means of the definition." - First of all, genocide doesnt apply to CITY-STATES, not a race or ethnicity. And two things 1. The Israelites were attacked first 2. The Canaanite city-states were HORRIFIC! in their society
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Human sacrifice, keeping women as pratical sex slaves etc. etc. The Israelites didnt commit genocide, actually READ the bible, cross-reference passages, look up the definitions in original Hebrew and greek and THEN TALK TO ME sir. "burdened them with original sin" -So humanity didnt do anything to DESERVE that? Clearly.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"Satan was first rebel against God"
How could one rebel against an omnipotent being? And why DID Satan rebel anyway? Does he know something we don't? Seeing how cruel your god has treated people throughout the Bible, including drowning them all in a worldwide flood, I can imagine that Satan knows some dark secrets about Yahweh.
"humanities role in the fall"
an omnipotent being could easily have prevented all of it.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
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@MomoTheBellyDancer "How could one rebel against an omnipotent being?" - Easy, we do it everyday. "Does he know something we don't?" - No, humans think like Satan sometimes, that we are better than God, we know more than God, we should BE gods. Satan though the same, and if he couldnt be God and he couldnt kill God, he would destroy his creation. "Seeing how cruel your god has treated people throughout the Bible" - Cruel or sturn? Some pampered modern people cant tell the difference.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "cluding drowning them all in a worldwide flood" - Yeah, destroying all the evil of the world and saving all of the good? SO horrible. The earth was WICKED, it says that for a reason. "I can imagine that Satan knows some dark secrets about Yahweh." - More projection? "an omnipotent being could easily have prevented all of it." - And become the paternal autocrat rather than the enlightened despot? No way. Sorry that God doesnt fit in your little theological box.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
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MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"The earth was WICKED"
So god could have snipped his ethereal fingers and make everything NOT wicked. Also, how could EVERYONE be wicked? Also the little children? And the parents, who loved their children, and were unable to save them from dying a horrible death from drowning?
"become the paternal autocrat rather than the enlightened despot?"
Threatening people with eternal torture for mere unbelief is NOT the hallmark of an "enlightened despot".
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Also, BRONZE-AGE? I LAUGH everytiem someone says that. The Bronze-age lasted until the 10th century BC. Most of the bible was written actually in the IRON age and up until classical antiquity if you count the early Christian church after the death of jesus. I love when historically illiterate atheists spew that garbage, bronze-age myth. Stop watching Dawkins and actually crack open a history textbook would ya?
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
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@MomoTheBellyDancer "So god could have snipped his ethereal fingers and make everything NOT wicked" -Yes he could have, if he wanted to throw everyone into slavery and destroy all traces of free will in humanity. But it appers you REALLY like that idea anyways. Is that what you would do if you were God? Well, pardon the expression, but THANK God, you're not Him."so the little children? And the parents, who loved their children" - You idea of a loving parent abandons them after maturity so pfft!
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
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@MomoTheBellyDancer In that case, the phrase "to be made in the image of" means absolutely NOTHING.
Wrong again. To be made in the image of something does not make you the original thing.
"my child can be the exact image of me"
No, it can't. It will always contain the genetic material of both parents.
1 you didn't take the rest of my statement I stated it isn't me only that it could have my exact image and yes it can. As to your very last statement..so does all of creation.
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000 Instead adding in meretricious claims as in not the 'exact replica' - why don't you explain what these differences are b/w humans and God (I presume you would say omnipotence, omnipresence etc) and how these differences vitiates my contention that a perfect being (God) cannot make a mistake hence if he creates something, he would do it perfectly which would result in a perfect creation. Humans are not perfect. There is a contradiction.
FryderykFChopin 1 month ago
@FryderykFChopin "Instead adding in meretricious claims,,,," Here I will take that you want to use meretriious to mean superficially significant. You are the one stuck on the image of God. Just because we as humans were made in His likeness doesn't mean we have all his attributes the same as my children do NOT have all of mine. This is not rocket science either.
charann1000 1 month ago
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@charann1000 'His likeness doesn't mean we have all his attributes the same as my children do NOT have all of mine.' Instead of red herrings why are you so reluctant or even maybe, afraid to challenge my contention. I said explain how these differences in 'attributes' invalidate my contention namely that: a perfect being (God) cannot make a mistake hence if he creates something, he would do it perfectly which would result in a perfect creation. Humans are not perfect. There is a contradiction.
FryderykFChopin 1 month ago
@FryderykFChopin God has free will He gave His children (creation - that would be "us") free will. He gave rules same as society has rules. Adam and Eve decides along with Satan not to follow those rules. When one breaks the rules there are consequences to ones actions = judgement. Choices, free will, consequences. Not a hard concept.Your thinking is to use your word vitiated or faulty yes.
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000 Well done, you have just assumed what you have been asked to prove. We have free will because we just do. Its akin to what many Christians like to say: I believe in the bible because its true, and its true because its in the bible. I have laid out my argument (which remains unchallenged) as to the problem of your free will assertion and unless you address that, there is no discussion to be had.
FryderykFChopin 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08 No, sorry. We as humans were made in God's image. We were meant (Adam and then Eve) to live in Eden with God. As His children. Satan entered the garden from Heaven usurping God's plan; hense why he's been cast out of heaven (first consequence for actions he's chosen). The "choice" was that Eve chose to listen to satan instead of obeying God's law. The choice all mankind has today. We all have the same consequences they had. So sin entered the world. Prior there was none.
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000
"Satan entered the garden from Heaven usurping God's plan"
And whose fault is that? Who created Satan? Who made it possible for this Satan to enter the garden? Who, despite his supposed omniscience, let this Satan screw up its creation?
And then this god punishes its CREATION, instead of the one messing it up. It even plays cruel games with a man just to make a point to Satan (just read the Book of Job). It all doesn't even make a smidgen of sense.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Who, despite his supposed omniscience, let this Satan screw up its creation?" - And what if God stopped Satan? What if he prevented the fall and protected humans from even the choice of temptation? What is it when you're kept somewhere, ignorantly, without any choice of leaving? Slavery! God wasnt keeping humans as slaves, they had their own moral choices and they made their choice. God's omnipotence also means NOT doing certain things, along with being ABLE to do anything
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"And what if God stopped Satan?"
Then his creation would be saved, and everybody would be happy.
"God wasnt keeping humans as? slaves, they had their own moral choices and they made their choice"
Yet your god got VERY pissed off when they made their choice and punished them for it. And not only them, but ALL of their descendants too, even though they didn't do anything wrong. It just doesn't make any sense.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Then his creation would be saved, and everybody would be happy." -Happy and a slave. God doesnt treat us like a nanny, who ultimately only cares about nothing more than our happiness and survival, he treats us as a parent, how wants us to grow and prosper, learn and expand. Not keep us, as you put it, chained in a basement. "It just doesn't make any sense." - Yeah, things dont make sense when you dont understand them. Try to fix that.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"Happy and a slave."
Nonsense. An omnipotent being should be able to devise a plan to keep people both happy AND free. Condemning people to eternal torture simply for not accepting a story without any evidence is NOT the proper way to go about it. It's the way of a psychotic tyrant.
"he treats us as a parent"
Good parents get out of the way, and they don't threaten their children with torture when they don't get worshiped.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "An omnipotent being should be able to devise a plan to keep people both happy AND free" - Does freedom bring YOU happiness? NO it doesnt, freedom allows you to seek your own happiness. Freedom and happiness are contradictory because either you want the freedom to seek your own happiness, or you want God to provide it for you without you having a say so? Are you advocating slavery to God's will? Odd for an atheist but alright.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Condemning people to eternal torture simply for not accepting a story without any evidence" - Well there you go strawman. God isnt condemning anyone. But actions have concequences and if you sin without paying any dues than God CANNOT bring you to Heaven, no one in hell will be there who so desperate want to BE WITH God. And the historical jesus is a fact first of all, and there is A LOT of evidence and reason to accept the story of Jesus as divinity.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"things dont make sense when you dont understand them"
I do understand all too well. It's YOU who doesn't understand the implications of the things you claim to believe.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "It's the way of a psychotic tyrant" -Not a tyrantanical autocrat, an enlightened despot (at least putting it in human terms) God does nothing for his own sake, he does so for the better of humanity for the salvation of humanity and hes successeded in that regard. "Good parents get out of the way" - Well, than thats simply a different of culture on I and your part. I was born in a very family oriented household, half Mexican just to give you scope. Family stays WITH you.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer And for me, and many others, GOOD parents are those who continue to try and protect you and help you WELL AFTER the point where you dont NEED it anymore because they care. Independence does not mean severing ties with anyone who can help you, its being able to help yourself, but having other with you. And Hell isnt torture lets get that straight. Being without God is the only torture. Read the actual bible, not Dante's Inferno ok?
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"GOOD parents are those who continue to try and protect you and help you"
And how does kicking someone out of your house for a relatively transgression count as "protect and help"? Not only did that happen, but god cursed the descendants of his children as well, even though they had nothing to do with it.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Seriously, Christians can figure out that its not all God's fault for everything, but you claim that its all the fault of a God, who you dont even believe exists! So again you have two choices, neither are good 1. You're claiming to know more than the vast majority of Christians and great theologians, philosophers of the church etc. or 2. You're projecting this opinion you hold on God himself. Pick one. "even though they had nothing to do with it." - Blood sir, blood.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "And then this god punishes its CREATION, instead of the one messing it up." -You mean...HUMANS? God punished humans pretty good actually. And why not? Sin afterall is the cause of death and suffering which all goes eventually forward to the sufferings of Jesus, but thats WAY ahead of the game. Satan is an angel, with free moral agency. So is humanity and God is not a tyrant who will prevent his creations from interacting with one another.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"God punished humans pretty good actually"
What for? Just for executing the free will your god gave them in the first place?
"Sin afterall is the cause of death and suffering"
Why would an omnipotent being care about stuff like that? And why would it need to sacrifice itself to itself, just to change a rule it made itself? And it wasn't even a sacrifice anyway, since Jesus is supposed to have come back to life. That whole tale is nonsensical.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "Just for executing the free will your god gave them in the first place?" - Yeah actually. Free will has negatives and positives, use it for good or use it for wrong. I've been over this before. "Why would an omnipotent being care about stuff like that?" -Now that, is a great mystery isnt it? Why would God give his only son to die for us? A love of a creator o his creation. Humans can understand that, or at least they SHOULD.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08
"Free will has negatives and positives, use it for good or use it for wrong."
What is good and wrong? All those rules by that godhood appear to be rather arbitrary. Why would it even care about being worshiped? Does it have such a frail ego?
"Why would God give his only son to die for us?"
Yes, why would it perform such a completely useless, repugnant act of human sacrifice, and then punish people for not accepting any of it?
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer "What is good and wrong?" - Evil is a shadow, devoid of something not something in of itself and evil is the lack of God. "Why would it even care about being worshiped?" - He doesnt. What the worship is, is the reaction of people before their creator God, its a reaction not a demanded action. "such a completely useless" -Its not useless, I would love to hear your justification of that statement. "then punish people for not accepting any of it?" -He doesnt.
GermanConquistador08 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer Satan had as much free will as Eve did. You are obviously one who likes to make up excuses for everything that happens instead of taking responsibility for self and ones own actions it shows in your ideas. I bet you feel sorry for those ppl that say "i beat my child because so n so beat me." It is hogwash, if you know that pain you do NOT inflict it. Take responsibility and take your own punishment for your actions. Instead of blaming everyone else including God.
charann1000 1 month ago
@GermanConquistador08 You have just merely assumed free will exists. There is a fundamental sense in which free will is impossible, whether determinism is true or not.
1.You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
2. So in order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are
3.But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are
4.So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin And by the way, who are YOU to say what is perfect and what is not? Thats an extremely dangerous ideal if we decide whats perfect on the whims of what we decide it is. "To say that we have free will because we have no choice" -...I dont even..do you know what free will is? Its the CHOICE to do one thing or another. I dont even know what to say. "You have just merely assumed free will exists" -...yeah kinda, most people do because its kind of obvious.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin 1. The way you are: The way you are is set, that is true. 2. "you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are" -Thats not true at all and it disproven by simple logic. Two people with the same background, lifestyles, cultures, experiences et.c can mature into two entirely different people. Our life is shaped by two things 1. Experiences 2. How we REACT to those experiences. To say we're hard-wired by our envirnment and upbrining is simply WRONG.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 There is an undeniable human tendency to see ourselves as free and morally responsible beings. But there’s a problem. We also believe - most of us anyhow - that our environment and our heredity entirely shape our characters (what else could?). But we aren’t responsible for our environment, and we aren’t responsible for our heredity. So we aren’t responsible for our characters. But then how can we be responsible for acts that arise from our characters?
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin "But then how can we be responsible for acts that arise from our characters?" - Well, from a theological perspective: The soul. Humanity has been ingrained the likeness of God. We have been given a moral code, and the following of that moral code, or rather the CHOICE to follow that inkling, that moral code, that image of God, that is the choice we make. Without the soul, we are just flesh machines and NO ONE is responsible for anything they do, biologically speaking.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
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FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
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@GermanConquistador08 What evidence is there that there is a 'soul' and in what ways does it at all affect our character? It has not advanced your rebuttal or might I say, lack of rebuttal, one iota to merely assume what you have been asked to prove. To say that we have a choice because we have a soul, and that we have a soul because we have a choice is akin to saying I believe in the bible because its true, and its true because its in the bible.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 'Thats not true at all and it disproven by simple logic. Two people with the same background, lifestyles, cultures, experiences et.c can mature into two entirely different people.' Try adding identical DNA to mix.
FryderykFChopin 2 months ago
@FryderykFChopin again to my statement below about exact image that I answered for you. even adding in your "identical DNA to the mix" so to speak. there have been cases of complete idential twins with completely different personalities so what is your point? mine is obvious....same image yet not the same and 'free will'
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000 If two beings had exactly identical DNA and exactly the same environment, it would follow logically, that their movements would mirror each other.
FryderykFChopin 1 month ago
@charann1000 1.You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
2.So in order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are — at least in certain crucial mental respects.
3.But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
4.So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
FryderykFChopin 1 month ago
@FryderykFChopin I'll admit its a pratical and logic theory but it doesnt work AT ALL in real life.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
Who cares about the Christian response? Shoo, go back to your churches, and leave the commemoration of Hitchens to worthier people.
MomoTheBellyDancer 2 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer I think atheists should be respected I also believe in hell but dont condemd anyone to it like many believers do this is a respect video as people have tried to point out if you cant understand that then move on with your life Im not saying that out of respect dude get off youtube and make the world a better place or something save a whale I dont know
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DeJay17Revolution
"I also believe in hell but dont condemd anyone to it"
That's a blatant contradiction. If you believe in a hell you also believe that Hitchens will be roasting there. You're a hypocrite, pure and simple.
MomoTheBellyDancer 2 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer wrong, just because, as a Christian, one believes in Hell does NOT mean that one "believes", assume (I personally never ass/u/me), or "know" that an individual IS for a fact in Hell no matter how that person lived. That decision is NOT for a Christian to make and that if you and others on these statements would open your ears would've listened is precisely what he was saying. It is NOT for anyone to say. Only God Himself will judge that.
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000
"That decision is NOT for a Christian to make"
That's nothing but a damn cop-out. It's YOUR belief, so stick by it!
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer I am I won't judge it as my belief states. Thank you. I do NOT know where he ended up and therefore will NOT state either way that decision as I have stated is God's alone.And so therefore, um, I am sticking by it, as you put it. Maybe you shoud know exactly what my belief tell me or what it is before you assume to tell me I am not standing by it by your preconceived notions of a belief you obviously know little about.
charann1000 1 month ago
@charann1000
"I won't judge it as my belief states."
Of course you're judging other people. Don't be such a hypocrite.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer your a silly little man and you have my pity
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DeJay17Revolution
"your a silly little man and you have my pity "
At least I don't spend my life kissing up to a non-existent god.
MomoTheBellyDancer 2 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer i was kidding bro but now that were on it
since when was god non existent? this is news to me since you made the claim please give me 100 percent proof he doesnt exist remember you made the claim not me if you cant then well dont insult my story quotes thank and have nice day being bothered by what you believe to be obviously false Merrry almost christmas
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
@DeJay17Revolution
"since when was god non existent?"
Since the day that thing got invented.
"please give me 100 percent proof he doesnt exist"
Ah, shifting the burden of proof. How quaint.
MomoTheBellyDancer 2 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer thats nice how you dont want to back up your statement basically lol okay
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
@DeJay17Revolution
"thats nice how you dont want to back up your statement basically "
I don't have to prove a negative.
MomoTheBellyDancer 2 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer you you successfully dodge a bullet and I move on with my life
DeJay17Revolution 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DeJay17Revolution
"you successfully dodge a bullet"
Not having to prove a negative is not "dodging the bullet". It looks like you still have a lot to learn.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer have a nice life then :D your right I have allot to learn but not from you
i wasnt asking you to prove a negative I asked you to back up what you said and you didnt and turned it on me so again good day sir
DeJay17Revolution 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DeJay17Revolution
"i wasnt asking you to prove a negative"
You said, and I quote: ""please give me 100 percent proof he doesnt exist"
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer because you said he didnt so I asked you to back it up
DeJay17Revolution 1 month ago
@DeJay17Revolution
"because you said he didnt so I asked you to back it up "
I never said that, and I still don't have to prove a negative.
MomoTheBellyDancer 1 month ago
@DeJay17Revolution - Well, this is one of the better Christian response videos I've seen. You both seem quite likeable and thoughtful. In fact, this religion business really doesn't suit you at all. You seem too well adjusted.
Surely you have times of doubt?
papillon7 2 months ago
@papillon7 doubt actually yes I was a skeptic at one time still am just not in the sense most atheists see it, I love questioning things and love interacting with thoughtful open minded people which is what keeps this channel rolling. You may be surprised that many Christians who take Jesus at his word aren't that bad and aren't like the supposed mainstream the media highlights. I consider a believer without doubt is like a body without antibodies
DeJay17Revolution 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DeJay17Revolution Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your the one making extraordinary claims.
SuperBspb 1 month ago
Keep on praying to your made up guy in the sky.
I'm going out for a beer because the party is still going on even without him.
I'm pretty sure it's what Hitchens would've wanted.
Happy Holidays
Getyurfactsstrait 2 months ago
@Getyurfactsstrait ill party and wake up and remember what happened no beer needed
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
Children that never grew up is a sad sight to see.
I hope "adult children" do not breed.
"adult children" need to die out.
LogicalStatements1 2 months ago
@LogicalStatements1 dont wish death upon atheists its not nice
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
@LogicalStatements1 sorry you made it to easy common dude are we all really that stale???? youtube has taken the humanity out of you so your going to insult someone youve never met? really lol alright thats cool Im more inclined towards atheism when you tell me im stupid just keep using that as your evangelism technique see how that one works
little hint it might want to bring a helmet
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Yahweh/Jesus Justice system is horrible people NEEDS to BELIEVE in him in THIS LIFE or else be torture forever....By the way the belief is for no reason...Why not just forgive people after death Yahweh? Is that to much to ask Yahweh oh so petty creator of the universe?
MrEmeraldfusion 2 months ago
Comment removed
ExposingTheHeretic 2 months ago
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@MrEmeraldfusion Are you so foolish that you speak about things you don't understand? Despite what you've heard, you can NOT wish or believe your way to heaven.
For a person to be saved from death (e.g. accepted by God), you MUST repent or turn away from sinful behavior. The person MUST seek God's forgiveness through prayer and be washed of their past sins. This is why Christians are baptized. Finally, you MUST continue to live a chaste life and MUST teach this WAY to others.
ExposingTheHeretic 2 months ago
@ExposingTheHeretic -"you can NOT wish or believe your way to heaven." That's what the bible says, he that believes and is baptized will be saved he that is not will be damned. (Mark 16:16) In another place says to observe all the commandments, and another your under grace to the commandments are only teaching us about God grace the Bible is a big book of pick and choose.
MrEmeraldfusion 2 months ago
@hungryman211 Man, its a Christian youtube channel. Part of an evangalist's job is to make a sermon about anything. I remember a pastor I met once had a teacher who would give him a random object and force them to preach it, based solely on that object. Its the job of an evangalist, and philosophers to make a lesson out of literally EVERYTHING and ANYTHING! You're offended because we as Chrisitans are trying to use Hitchen's death as a learning experience, as we would for fellow Christians.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago 2
@GermanConquistador08 I would respond to your comment but, as is fairly typical of theistic attitudes toward criticism, my comment has been removed. I can't recall what I wrote, however, I usually make a point of not making offensive comments, so I see no reasonable excuse for having my opinion censored. I'm not going to numb my mind further by watching the video again. My apologies for not continuing the discussion with you.
hungryman211 2 months ago
@hungryman211 "as is fairly typical of theistic attitudes toward criticism, my comment has been removed" - Well, seeing as how it literally flew in the face of the video I could understand. And Saying that its "fairly typical" even though it isnt, shows your antagonistic attitude toward the video, which you clearly didnt watch considering your attitude towards it "I'm not going to numb my mind further" - They praised Hitchens, but you're so closed-minded you didnt even notice.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 I would love to argue with you but, as I already said, I can't recall the details of my original comment which has since been removed (unfairly, in my opinion). I will only defend that which I know with certainty - that I did indeed watch the video in its entirety. This is something I have no desire to subject myself to again. As for my comment regarding theistic censorship: again, I can only comment on my own experience, which has been, for the most part, unfair censoring
hungryman211 2 months ago
@hungryman211 "which has since been removed (unfairly, in my opinion)" Well if I remember correct, you insulted these fellows for making a "sermon" out of Hitchens death, which isnt everyone doing? Trying to find lessons in the death of a man both supported and fought against on the intellectual battlefields? "is something I have no desire to subject myself to again" -Its not electro-shock man, come on stop being overdramatic. Its not unfair to censor comments REFUTED by the video itself.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@hungryman211 that was my bad I meant to click the respond button but im not used to the new youtube layout your free to bash us for whatever reason you find satisfying
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
well I take a break and overnight I see very hateful comments well I aplogize If we offended anyone but we were trying to speak on an issue
Hitchens in the past has said things about wishing people to go to hell and we never wished it opon him so please be respectful were trying to say we are sorry for the friends and family and defending a christian position while doing it before crazy people go on about how people go on about hell in a disrespectful manner
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
the very fact that you are bringing up the topic of hell in the same video about hitchens death shows how twisted you christards are.,,your just looking for a way to dig your self righteous little claws in. Maybe its because you got annoyed about all the "hitch slaps" your religion received from the great man!
WELSHREBEL100 2 months ago
@WELSHREBEL100 You clearly didnt even listen to these guys. They said very clearly that WE DONT KNOW if he's in hell or not, thats not known to us, only to God. These guys were speaking out AGAINST Christians that youre talking about. Are the Christians really the ones twisted here? Especially when it is YOU twisting things? Look in the mirror man, just look.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 thank you because honestly allot of these comments seemed to repeat the same thing what were doing is addressing what Christians will most likely say it without thinking. I understand this is a loss to the atheist community but they should become loose cannons because of it
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@DeJay17Revolution I think its just how things go. Divisions between believers and nonbelievers have gotten so splintered that we just kind of assume things about the other side even if they're not true. But its good that we have Chrisitans like you guys that try to mend that divide. Good on you guys! Keep up the good work with these videos.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 thanks again man I truly thsnk you for being a light in the dark here and correcting people were not trying to cause division but pay our respects to a man whom I respected in some ways
DeJay17Revolution 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 I DID LISTEN TO THE VIDEO RIGHT THROUGH AND I CLEARLY LISTENED. BUT I AM NOT STUPID...THESE GUYS STARTED THE VIDEO SAYING TRAGIC NEWS. IN OTHER WORDS THEY MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THEY WANT TO HONOR THE MAN BUT USE OTHER CHRISTIANS EXPECTED RESPONSE TO BRING UP THE WHOLE HELL TOPIC. YOU MAY BE STUPID BUT I AM NOT GERMANCONQUISTADOR.! IF THEY WANT TO HONOR HIM THEN HONOR HIM. PERIOD! ARE YOU CHRISTIAN? ;o)
WELSHREBEL100 2 months ago
@WELSHREBEL100 "BUT USE OTHER CHRISTIANS EXPECTED RESPONSE TO BRING UP THE WHOLE HELL TOPIC. YOU MAY BE STUPID BUT I AM NOT' - First of all, all caps rage? Secondly if you dislike that they brought up the hell topic...welll why? Why is it wrong that they brought up hell? And they did so in order to honor Hitchens saying that Christians who say hes in Hell are wrong. "YOU MAY BE STUPID BUT I AM NOT' - Clearly I am stupid solely for thinking that its ok to say that a man might not be in hell.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 MY CAPS ARE ON TO SAY TO YOU "ARE YOU FUCKING HEARING ME YOU DUMB ASS CHRISTIAN?" ..THATS WHAT YOU ARE RIGHT? YOU DID NOT ANSWER ME WHEN I ASK IF YOU WERE A CHRISTIAN!..HMM WONDER WHY?...I AM AN ATHEIST!...PS..IHAVEJUSTSEEN ALLTHE COMMENTSYOU HAVE LEFT ABOUT THIS VIDEO...ARE YOU OBSESSED? YOU ARE STUPIDBECAUSE YOU REFER TO GOD AND HELL AS IF THEY ARE REAL..YET YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT. YOU ARE A LOSER. NOW FUCK OFF
WELSHREBEL100 2 months ago
@WELSHREBEL100 ""ARE YOU FUCKING HEARING ME YOU DUMB ASS CHRISTIAN?"" - I am, but its quite unneccisary. You cant heard over the internet now can you. I pay more attention to it, but you really dont NEED to cap everything. Just put what you want for emphasis and you'll be fine. Besides, its easier to understand in regular type. "YOU DID NOT ANSWER ME WHEN I ASK IF YOU WERE A CHRISTIAN!..HMM WONDER WHY?..." - I didnt think I had to. If its not obvious than thats your failing not mine.
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 thats the trouble with U christians. U are so used to making presumptions, you think non believers are that way to. I asked U if U were christian because i did not want to presume U were! And U were obviously trying to avoid admitting U were christian as U wanted to avoid me knowing U had biased views which are quite clear in this case. now fuck off as hard as you can ok? or go get some powdered God in a bag from the vatican. i hear they do good deals for christmas cocaine
WELSHREBEL100 2 months ago
@WELSHREBEL100 "avoid admitting U were christian" -I am a Christian. But to be honest, it wouldnt matter if I was an atheist argueing on behalf of Christians, a Jew and Buddhist it honestly doesnt matter, the only thing that matters is the arguements, it doesnt matter whose saying them. "U had biased views" - You use bias about as well as expected. EVERYONE has bias'. YOU have bias' by your own worldview and no ones bias' matters, the only thing that matters is the ARGUEMENTS!
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 Learn to spell ARGUMENT you idiot
WELSHREBEL100 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@WELSHREBEL100 "Learn to spell ARGUMENT you idiot" - I'm glad to see you're angry AND intolerent. English isnt my first language, excuse me if my spelling isnt good. "atheist comrades?..you make me siound like a sheep!" -...*cough*"i dont have tribal mentality like you sick fucks. i can deal with people like you...on my own." -Clearly, thats why I'm the only Christian here debating against three atheists at one, atheistexplains, you and fryderyk. And you didnt address anything I said, nice
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@WELSHREBEL100 "now fuck off as hard as you can ok?" -You're not doing your atheist comrades any help by being an arse you know that? Trying to get a Christian to stop talking because you dont like their arguements just looks REALLY bad. "i hear they do good deals for christmas cocaine" -..HAHA the Hell are you talking about?
GermanConquistador08 2 months ago
@GermanConquistador08 atheist comrades?..you make me siound like a sheep! which i am not..i am my own person. i dont have tribal mentality like you sick fucks. i can deal with people like you solely on my own.