The end of the service Christmas eve 12-24-08

[Bigu47]

Like Saint Patricks, Saint John The Divine is an impressive Gothic Cathedral. Fortunate to have seen both.

[jorgecarrillo2]

fortunatelly we Catholics do not need women priests

[SandraLeeSchubert]

@jorgecarrillo2 You don't know what you are missing. The richness that female clergy bring to the religious experience can't be beat. The balance of male/female makes the church a fuller and more inspired place.

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert

Jesus never instituted women for priesthood, why should we do something he didn't?

[SandraLeeSchubert]

@jorgecarrillo2 I disagree with you on that. Women were active followers of Jesus. He commissioned ALL his followers. I see nothing in the bible where Jesus seperates out the men from women he is completely and fully exclusive.

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert

Everybody know that women were followers of Jesus, but, among the twelve can we see any lady?

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert

How many women were among the 12?

[SandraLeeSchubert]

@jorgecarrillo2 There were no women among the twelve. Nonetheless, Jesus did not exclude women or anyone outside of the twelve. He did not say only these twelve can spread the word. There are examples where Jesus sent out large groups of people to heal and spread the word. And, he did not define anyone as priest that is a later construct of the church.

We could go back and forth on this and most likely never agree. The Jesus I have come to know accepts me as I am, as he accepted everyone.

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert

Jesus accepts you, no doubt, but to assume that The Lord was omissive or that he didn't called women to the 12 as result of a lack of attention to details, is very dangerous.

[SandraLeeSchubert]

@jorgecarrillo2  Sigh, no where did I say Jesus lacked detail. I said that he did not define or segregate men or women into categories. Men can consegrate women cannot. Women had faith - Thomas did not. He needed physical touch to believe. Mary could believe. It is a great leap to think because Jesus allowed Thomas to touch him men are consecrated. it just proves to Jesus men pushed them harder to believe. But I am done with this conv. Women are equal to men & can stand at the altar w/0 doubt

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert

Nobody says that as women you can not spread His word among People. But to celebrate consecration is quite different. Remember the passage when he was just risen and Magdalene almost touched him, he stopped her to do so, but when he went to the 12, he called Thomas to put his hand inside his chest.

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert

Can you see it?, he didn't allowed a women to touch him, but he called a Man to do it, Why?, only he knows. But if we truly believe that the consecrated species are his flesh and blood, his indivisible body, Why can't we respect his expresed will?

[jorgecarrillo2]

@SandraLeeSchubert How many women were among the 12? and among the 72? hte idea is that although Jesus came to save men and women,he comissioned men to be ministers of the church, why? only he knows, but we most respect.

[Serlio78]

As a practicing Roman Catholic, I just want to say that I am sorry that there have been negative posts here by some Catholics regarding the Anglican liturgical tradition. It is a beautiful liturgical tradition, and their envious comments are an embarrassment to anyone who believes in placing the focus of liturgy on God.

[4sm2use]

Thanks Sandra Lee Schubert for clearing that up. Been high church Episcopalian all my life and never seen it that way. Maybe Diocese of NY is different. THANKS!!!

[4sm2use]

Can someone explain to me why this is backwards? Seems like the Bishop and other clergy were first, then the chior. Should'nt it be the chior, clergy and bishop as last?

[SandraLeeSchubert]

This is the end of the service, the order is switched and the clergy process out first in order of Bishop first (if one is present, or the celebrant).

[901cleo]

At my Episcopal Cathedal we process in and out in the same order: choir, clergy, bishop.

[SandraLeeSchubert]

If I think of it I'll ask tomorrow why we do that. I assume in the Episcopal Church there is some wiggle room to make decisions on this.

[brianej33]

As an American Episcopalian from Lutheran stock, let me say this is glorious and a fitting tribute to God from mankind using all the talents He gave us. Glorious, yes. Over the top, no. Smug? You may be the judge. My opinion is it a small introduction to the glories of God.

[kejcolley]

I somewhat agree: rather OTT in ceremonial. But if it was done for the glory of God who are we to criticise? I'm an Anglican (C of E) and of the Evangelical end, so its not what I would want but hey, who knows what the worship of heaven will be like?

[frattington]

Whoa!! There are far too many processional cross and candle bearers. You only need one cross.

Why is it that the garb and ceremonial of the Anglican-based liturgy is so strongly reminiscent of a commencement exercise? Maybe its those stuffy vergers with their silly maces. All you would need are shaded choir stall lamps to really accentuate the air of stiff upper lip spirituality.

Lose the tippet and lament the fact that you still haven't reclaimed the galero. (LOL)

[WFraslow]

Frattington, you do seem to have valid points about our excesses WHILE also harboring quite invalid prejudices against our High Church Anglican tradition. It isn't a perfect tradition. Even the building of this great cathedral evinces the strong resentment of our forebearers toward the Roman religion.

Our apparent "smugness" is a cover-up for our "Rome-envy" that must be repressed due to the anti-Latin ethno-cultural prejudices that are despicably Anglican.

[gbms86]

@frattington The "garb and ceremonial of the Anglican-based liturgy is so strongly reminiscent of a commencement exercise" because modern academic regalia grew out of, and evolved alongside, the clerical dress of the English Church (specifically at Oxford & Cambridge). Today if you go to Morning or Evening Prayer at an Episcopal Church you'll often see the cleric wearing an academic hood representing their school and degree. I think it's a neat continuation of a centuries-old tradition.

[sykobeachparty]

Yay for the Anglicans :-D

[allwasforanapple]

Smug anglicanism -  par excellence.

[pipeup1]

Indeed, isn't it wonderful!!! :-))

[WFraslow]

Dilettante! This post is an embarassment to the Anglican tradition because it furthers the myth that we Anglicans/Episcopalians love the Church before God.

Get your head out of your misericord!

[pipeup1]

Its long understood in the Anglican tradition that the procession to and from worship is itself an act of worship and part of the liturgy. This is why we have vestry prayers with a dismissal in the private of the vestry. Technically, that is when the worship is concluded.