Wings of Russia: Figthers. Stormy Years. (Episode 2 of 18)

[pikeywyatt]

good and inlightng

[nigmalex]

super

[landocalrision]

How strange .the bell p39 airocobra was generally considered a dud across all western air forces and when they gave it to Russia it was almost like palming off crap but they loved it.Soviets must have given it more time and worked out the shortcomings and adapted.The 37mm cannon on plane..... wow ......one shot thats it. game over

[BitnikGr]

@landocalrision Not only the P39, but also British Hurricanes. They were considered inferior to BF-109. But Brits were flying them "by the book". Soviets simply forced their engines to output more power even if engine could last only 10hours, but with increased power Hurricane was obtaining better flying properties and were fighting BF-109s on equal. That's what Soviet were doing with Lend Lease inferior fighters... squeezing their engines to the maximum just for 3-5 flights.

[landocalrision]

what a story...... amazing attention to detail where are the rest of this series.I have only found out recently how excellent Russian documentaries are.Thank you BitnikGr for upload

[108Dax]

very informative doc. packed with info.

[palker4]

this is making me want to play IL2 so much

[jdhf983y4uhu]

18:03 migs where poorly armed with a BS machine gun lol

[FunnyLookingMonkey5]

Thanks for the upload friend!!! i was looking this for a long long time! you are great!

[BitnikGr]

@FunnyLookingMonkey5 You are absolutely welcome!

[devastatermir372]

@BitnikGr

is Sir peter Ustinov, the narrator here???

[BitnikGr]

@devastatermir372 No. Sir Peter Ustinov is narrator in Discovery show "Wings of the Red Star".

[BitnikGr]

@Jenisch1990 True!

/watch?v=JJdTH8I6ub8 - Here is a story of one Soviet fighter pilot. Take a note when he speaks about score system...

[BitnikGr]

@Jenisch1990 Soviets never adopted "free hunting" in wide scale. It was proposed by USSR's best ace and had positive results in the first week, but was then strictly prohibited by VVS Command.

-

I understand LW pilots' professionalism, but not strategies chosen by LW Command... ultimately by Goring. I don't say either that Hartmann wasn't a good pilot. He was a very talented one. But all those scores on Eastern Front are overly exaggerated. LW gave wrong strategic priorities to its pilots.

[BitnikGr]

@Jenisch1990 Better equipment and better team tactics and more experience - Yes.

Training in solo flights - not really. A good soviet pilot could take one on one with any good German pilot in dogfight... even with older planes. Hell, Soviets even had aces on obsolete I-16s with victories against BF-109.

This fact along shows that they were not as bad pilots in the beginning of the war as they are presented in the West. Training level reduced in 1941-42 and raised back again in 1943-45.

[BitnikGr]

@Jenisch1990 ...

Best German pilot of WW II for me was Rudel. Because his actions had direct result on ground forces. And it is ground forces, which ultimately win or loose wars. If German fighter pilots had even 1000 fighters shot down on their score, this wouldn't mean anything. They still would loose the war.

This was a wrong strategy chosen by Goring from the very beginning. He started this machine of silly competition for higher score and this determined pilots' behavior.

[BitnikGr]

@Jenisch1990 So, you can't tell that this is a "soviet propaganda". Memoirs of Erich Hartmann published in USA are not soviet propaganda by default. However, if you read the book, you'll see how easily German pilots (including Hartmann) were leaving escort of their bombers and were chasing an easy kill to increase their score.

You'll see that in many intercept missions, instead of attacking bombers, "brave" LW aces were chasing fighters for easier kill.

...

[BitnikGr]

@Jenisch1990 I am not objecting to their professionalism. They were professionals, they had better equipment and better tactics. What I am objecting to is the ridiculous extend of top LW aces scores compared to any other air-force. And there are modern and valuable sources, which doubt the amount of German aces victories on Eastern Front.

Best British, American, Russian, Japanese aces claim several dozens of victories, while many dozens of German pilots claim hundreds of victories, yeah right.

[TheThegayandproud]

1200 aircraft destroyed on day 1 of barbarossa ? LIES LIES. This is so pro-soviet , luftwaffe destroyed near 2000 aircraft and 3000 IN THE NEXT 3 DAYS. The germans were the ones to develop cooling engines , the FW190 was delayed because it did not go in to mass production do to the leadership incompetence. I sriously doubt the yak could take on the FW190.

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud "1200 aircraft destroyed on day 1 of barbarossa? ... luftwaffe destroyed near 2000 aircraft and 3000 IN THE NEXT 3 DAYS. "

1) The first sentence in anyway doesn't make the second one a lie or vice versa... 1200 can be destroyed in first day and 2000 in next three days... Where's the problem with logic in this?

2) There is a big difference between 2000 and 3000... so, how much was it? Why not 5000?

3) I am sure you have sources backing up your claims... right?

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud According to Luftwaffe's report for 1st week of operations 22-28 June 1941: about 700 Soviet aircrafts were destroyed on Northern direction, 1570 on Central one and 1360 on Southern one. 3630 all together, in air and on the ground... in 1 week.

Another source... The 1st Air Fleet reported 1698 aircrafts destroyed from 22/6 till 13/7. 487 in air combat and 1211 on the ground. That's 3 weeks!

...

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud ...

So where are your 3000 in 3 days? Only in fairytale about great German aces? If we count their score, they were shooting down more planes than existed in reality!

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud "I sriously doubt the yak could take on the FW190."

It is enough to look at planes' specs in order to not have doubts. First of all, which Yak? Yak-1? Yak-3? Yak-9?

Yak-3 and Yak-9 had less max speed and had lower service ceiling. Yaks had same or better acceleration than FW-190. Yak-9 had same rate of climb. Yak-3 had better rate of climb. And finally both Yaks had much better wing loading.

Now, convert all above in simple words and you'll see that the best tactics for...

[TheThegayandproud]

@BitnikGr Im sorry for not expressing myself correctly . I ment to say that there were approx 3000 scraped soviet aircraft destroyed in the first 3 days of operation Barbarossa. Were around 2000 were claimed by pilots of all the aerial fleets combined . But on this doc it claims the toll was about 1200. There are reports of the ministry of air confirming the german toll. As for the FW190 , there is n doubt that the cooling engine iwas first tested in the 30s by german engineers but was not used

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud ... FW-190 would be hit-and-run tactics thank to their max speed. They were also better performing at high altitudes, since they had 2000m more of service ceiling. But in maneuverable dog-fight till 9000m they had no chance against Yaks.

With planes like that, with their pros and their cons, everything is up to pilot.

It is not an accident that vast majority of German ace's victories were in hit-and-run tactics. In tight dogfight even old I-16 could give them some lessons.

[EugenetReal]

@TheThegayandproud Oh, my God! Wiki is also pro-soviet!!!

"The Luftwaffe claimed to have destroyed 1,489 aircraft on the first day of operations.[82] Hermann Göring — Chief of the Luftwaffe — distrusted the reports and ordered the figure checked. Picking through the wreckages of Soviet airfields, the Luftwaffe's figures proved conservative, as over 2,000 destroyed Soviet aircraft were found."

Oh, my God!

[BitnikGr]

@EugenetReal Wiki is an open-source! It can't be pro-anything :)))

[TheThegayandproud]

@EugenetReal I mean you would have to see the the fighter in theater. Compared to the bf 109 the mission directives would have to be compared . The bf 109 is a good offensive fighter for escorting bomber raids and such . While the fw 190 with its high manuvoreubilty can out turn linear engine yak 9 and can has a higher turn radius and better speed at low altitudes. In the last phases of the war the red airforce conducted mission to support the army at which the fw190 could outmoneuver th yak9

[TheThegayandproud]

@TheThegayandproud Im sorry i ment to say the bf 109 is not good for escorting bomber raids . At high altitudes the bombers flew to avoid flak , the bf 109 capacity was limiteed. Also in the intital stages of the war the german air force practiced free hunting shooting down enemy aircraft at sight . Prime tactic for the bf 109.

[TheThegayandproud]

@EugenetReal and besides . Almost all of the tolls were estimates on confirmed fighter claims give or take , it is a fact the the proportion of the russian fighters claim toll was about 40 percent unconfirmed . A very high unconfirmed percent , were it usually orunded 5 to 10 percent for german fighters.

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud "it is a fact the the proportion of the russian fighters claim toll was about 40 percent unconfirmed" - Fact?! Where did you take that for a fact?!

Fact is that Soviets had a psychology of what they were calling "massive heroism". According to this policy they didn't wanted to have propaganda heroes like Hartmann. Actually, documented fact is that a lot of victories of Soviet pilots were going to "common score" of the squadron. In some cases up to 80% were written on such...

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud ... "common scores". Meaning that if a Soviet pilots had 10 victories, he had usually only 4-6 written to his personal score. Some historians made a thorough research of Soviet units where Kozhedub was flying and German archives against whom Kozhedub's unit was fighting. According to them he had to have about 110 confirmed kills (instead of 60 something he has officially). When they told this to him, telling that he can claim more kills, he didn't interested.

...

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud ...

Victory over fascism was a common duty and not a sport gambling who will get higher score like it was in Luftwaffe. Free hunting is one of the reason why Luftwaffe failed. Every action of Air Force and Navy must be dedicated to success of ground operations. If they are separated from ground operations, whatever they do is nothing more than a mouse running in a tunnel.

If a Soviet fighter was shooting down 5 German fighters but was loosing 1 single bomber from formation...

[BitnikGr]

@TheThegayandproud ... he had to protect, then he could be executed! In contrast German escort pilots were easily leaving their bombers in order to hunt easy kills of wounded planes. Fact also is that in Soviet Air Force bomber pilots were considered more heroes and not fighter pilots. Work of bomber is much more dangerous, but at the same time with every bomb he drops he brings victory closer. Free hunting my ass...

[Tarten46]

and fearless leader stalin. yes he fearlessly suck hitlers dick sharing part of poland. this bought stalin time to move crucial factorys east. stalin didnt want those factorys bombed by hitlers friend the japanese. so he sucked tojos dick as well. ask a russian and theyll tell you they whipped hitler by themselves. easy to say when you fight only ONE of your "friends" enemys.

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 Do some research why Japanese denied to Hitler to attack Soviets from Far East. And instead preferred the US as a target.

Yes, Stalin needed some time... that's all he could do since he understood that war with Germany is inevitable.

Sharing part of Poland gave USSR more space till their borders... let's call it a "buffer zone", which again is converted in time needed to Wehrmacht to cross this area.

[Tarten46]

the russian reverse engineered B-29 at 48;54 is a real piece of work. B-29 crews incurring battle damage over Japan sometimes diverted to russia. since the russians were to cowardly to fight Japan and maintained a peace treaty with Japan all US aircraft combating Japan entering Russian airspace were siezed and their aircrews became Russian POW's. half the shit shown here originated from british and american designs but touted as russian tech. IFF, gyro compass, laminar air flow, marston mat,etc

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 "russians were to cowardly to fight Japan" - USSR fought against Japan in July-August 1945 in Manchuria and North Japan. And in fact had great advance, because after fighting forces of 3rd Reich, Japanese forces (without heavy armor and weakened by war with US) were peace of cake.

It is actually the US who was coward to fight in Japanese main islands and they dropped 2 nukes "in order to avoid casualties among soldiers" (killing millions of civilians). But in reality it was a show...

[Tarten46]

@BitnikGr considering the sound trouncing the japanese gave ivan during russo-japanese war you can bet ivan wanted little grief from japan with the germans cruising thru the western motherland. japan,armor? no body had ivans armor beat,period. 2 nukes pale in comparison to the incendiary raids. oh yes they were a show just as Dresden was a show. As far as your "selfish" US soldier lifes assumption goes. The lives of Japanese civilians& their willingness to die was taken into account.

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 "ivan wanted little grief from japan" - They've got it before WW II started. That's why I told you to get some research why Japan refused Hitler to attack on USSR.

-

"As far as your "selfish" US soldier lifes assumption goes. The lives of Japanese civilians& their willingness to die was taken into account. "

US soldiers were not willing to die. But civilians were willing to die... ok, let's nuke them all.

The worst losses of US in Pacific were in battle for Okinawa. About 50.000...

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 ...

US Forces wouldn't lost more than that during conquering the rest 3 Japanese islands because: 1) Japan was already economically and military exhausted 2) Soviets were coming from the North. But then of course, it is a big chance that Japan would become divided, just like Korea was.

US already had a nuclear bomb and a Cold War era had already started. They needed to show off. Just a test in open ocean wouldn't be enough. Real use to scary USSR would be better.

[Tarten46]

@BitnikGr the fear of a divided japan or a full japanese embrace of communism was a big factor. loss of japanese civilians is over looked. recall all the jumping civilians on okinawa? camera crews were instructed to document japanese civilian response to allied invaders since this was the first allied encounter with them and would give some intel on what to expect in the future. the japanese clothing i have from 45, the thread count indicates extreme manfufacturing hard ship.

[Tarten46]

@BitnikGr the cold war started from the begining of hostilitys. allied or not stalins little suck up with hitler allready proved he'd do anything. relationships steadily became frosty. failure to return aircrews became a big issue behind the scenes.  brit ace stanford tuck found himself in russian captivity around ve day. he was in fear for his life and had to sneak from russian custody. there were only 2 nuclear devices on the planet and there was a war on. why would you detonate one for free?

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 ... it was a demonstration of nuclear power against USSR.

Now let's talk about "British and American inventions"...

IFF - The world's First IFF - FuG-25a - Germany 1940. First Soviet IFF was designed for RUS-2 radar (in service since 1941) and came into service in 1943.

Gyrocompass - The first in the World was built in 1889 by French Artur Kerbs. 1903 patented in Germany. 1908 patented in USA.

Laminar flow (or stream flow by russian terminology) was known in Russia since 1917.

...

[Tarten46]

@BitnikGr development, battle field deployment , who did it first, and the offical claim on paper are all different realitys. IFF is an example. considering the time table and who/when they were using. i dont recall any german pilot first person accounts of it being used till 41. being a confidential tech any first claim is doubt full ie: the brits understood its short comings as in they back tracked the signal to its owner. IFF had less negatives in the pacific. why tip your hand its war.

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 "i dont recall any german pilot first person accounts of it being used till 41" - Because radar technologies were first evolved on the ground. Equipment was too bulky to use it on airplanes. That's why first radars and first IFF systems were installed on ground.

So, the first IFF was German (not British or American) and Russian IFF in 1943 could be developed by their own, or "borrowed" from Germany. UK and US airplanes sent to USSR by Lend-Lease hadn't IFF systems installed.

[Tarten46]

@BitnikGr  i believe Galland mentions iff use during his last sortie days b4 advancement. it would be unlikely that lend lease ac would be shipped with sesitive american/brit electronics. radar,radio, and associated devices were new and the technology grew then employed rapidly by german,brits,yanks. from the drawing board to the field with little lead time. note; the aircobra 38:13 and the piece of gear below tail trailing. appears the ruskie boffins were very interested in american design.

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 "appears the ruskie boffins were very interested in american design." - It is natural. Every professional is interested in designs from a foreign country. Allied or not. Soviets were evaluating Pz III, IV, Tigers. They were tuning and tweaking British airplanes more than anything else. Simply because UK planes were not suiting them enough. In fact US planes and trucks were most respected among Soviets from all Lend-Lease products.

-

American boffins were interested in Soviet ...

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 ... fighter jet and tanks design. Otherwise they wouldn't steal MiG-15/21/25, T-72/80. Evaluation of foreign technology is a normal procedure.

[BitnikGr]

@Tarten46 ...

Marsden matting is a technology of perforated steel and was indeed first developed by US before the WW II. Does this documentary state that it was a Soviet invention?!

-

[MasterDiablo]

omfg this is such a great documentary, I've never seen such a good, big, unbiased and accurated documentary about Soviet/Russian aviation before, and I like the narator's voice, it's very clear to listen to, thx for updoading it, sorry for spamming but because I love it!!!

[Panzerargentino]

Nice downloading right now.