i do not know how it felt to live in those years but could the crash case an all out war? can some one who lived during those years say what was the feeling of the people during this time?
Also if this had happened in the daytime, the MiG pilot would have seen that it was clearly a 747. They were at the wrong place at the wrong time. The US government pissed them off earlier that night with their spy plane and the Korean Air flight ended up paying the price.
Captain Chun Byung-In was an experienced pilot and flew this route many times. The pilots were purposely led astray by the tampered auto pilot system and/or US military stations. The US Air Force tracking station destroyed the tracking tapes 30 hours after the attack. Rep Larry MacDonald was the target because he wanted to investigate the Trilateral Commission and Council on Foreign Relations plus he was running for President, which would have exposed the Rothschild-led Jewish New World Order.
The Russian Fighter Pilot Implies To The Interviewer..After He Fires The Fatal Missile..'' I Saw The Lights Go Off & The Plane Go Down' So i went Home....lol..Still Livin In Denial Some 27 Years Later.[to Him it's All in a Day's Work]..
I believe that the fighter pilot must be suffering his mind may lie but his concience will not. I truely feel sorry for him carrying that burden for the rest of his life.
Luna1362 The Russian gave warning shots and then flew within view of the Korean pilots, he checked it out and gave all the warning he had to. Maybe you should think before you send such nonsense.
The mistakes were on the Korean pilots' part, the Russian fighter did everything he was supposed to and believed 100% it was an enemy spy plane. The families were only looking for someone to blame.
@ktriyas At least the Americans had their share of the blunder. They also compensated the families of the victims. The Soviets are the real losers. They denied any involvement and refused to compensate the families of the victims.
@emma84770 . . So wat mate ? ACI cant kill their actors after the plane on episode crashes :) .. We just need to know wat happened !! Its a re-enactment !! There ll be actors who ll repeat !! Philipines air bombing terrorist played the role of the co-pilot in the Turkish DC-10 crash !!
the americans did talk to the plane first although they got no answer. the soviats didn't get in touch with the plane to let them know, nor did they give them a chance to leave
@luna1632 by your logic if a US plane flying over US territory doesn't give me an answer I can fire a missile to destroy it because I'm on my military mission nearby.
@BCEMCOCATb no, but by contacting the plane via radio they could have alerted the plane it was in soviat air space, and given the plae a chance to leave rather than just shout it down. it was diffrent from the american isident as that was with a boat on the ground and they had no visial ability to see the plane, where as the fight could see the plane and look inside, as they did with the helios flight
@luna1632 Actually. The Soviets shoting down planes was hardly something new at the time. But then it is understandable considdering how many spy planes the US and other nato countries sent over into the Soviet airspace over the decades before this incident. US relies heavely on spy planes even today (like the one captured by Iran a few weeks ago), which I don't really understand, One would think that they could use spy satellites for that, things that can't be detected.
On the other hand, the Soviets had a habit of over-reacting and would hardly shy away from lying about some aspects. in 1952 a Swedish DC:3 was shot down over international water by Soviet fighters (the DC:3 was a spyplane providing Nato with information), the next day a Swedish Catalina plane was also shot down while looking for teh lost DC:3. The Soviets claimed it was over Soviet airspace and that it had attacked the fighters (which was impossible).
@ktriyas yes but the americans did try to contact the plane first. the russians din't even talk to the plane and give them a chance to leave soviat air space
@ktriyas yes, but they did try to contact the plane first, and no reply was given. the russians din't even tell the plane there were in soviat air space and give them a chance to leave
42:00 - why would the Soviet fighter pilot have been in danger? Even if it really had been an RC-135 spy plane rather than a civilian jetliner, the RC-135 doesn't carry anti-aircraft weapons IIRC.
@GCarty80 the aircraft dropped down the speed. If the Soviet pilot dropped the speed to the same level, he would fall down. So the danger was either falling down or a chance to lose an aircraft.
Many of you choose to blame the Russians. But if the 007 crew were on the correct course, the Russians wouldn't shoot it down. Also, if USAF detected what they deemed to be a Russian spy plane over US airspace, what do think would happen?
@Fortstorm I'm not blaming the Russians for anything, but every coin has two sides. And if countries like Iran and Russia hadn't been so aggressive in the first place, maybe this whole fiasco could have been avoided in the first place.
This is the worst piece of "facts" ever assembled for television. Somewhere in Texas, a village idiot, sitting in his trailer probably believes this episode is factual because he's never picked up a book in his life or studied primary source material.
There is no hypocrisy my friend as far as I can see. But nonetheless, everyone is guilty of hypocrisy. The mere act of accusing someone is hypocritical within itself. If you've ever been around civil servants for international organizations, you'll see how corrupt and depraved they really are: supervisors trying to seduce interns in exchange for favors, interns getting hired based on their looks rather than skills etc....
If those Iranian thugs hadn't been involved with their petty little rivalry with Hussein, maybe things would have been different. It's indeed a tragedy, but it could have been avoided if the Iranian government hadn't been so aggresive in the first place.
@jpwillia30ge You mean defending itself after Iraq attacked Iran? This was a tragedy, but it was also murder. You show a complete lack of historical knowledge (thinking somehow Iran was at fault for the war) and are willing to lie to defend the USA's actions (they were in foreign sovereign waters - shot down and killed people flying in sovereign air space). The Iranians had not been aggressive, and Rogers has repeatedly been cited as being far too aggressive. Learn some facts.
@pubuman And you my friend exhibit an arrogance and short-sightedness that explains why wars break out in the first place. Your view of "historical knowledge" is not the ultimate truth. What facts are you referring to? What's stated in the Iranian newspapers? Yeah, now there's an objective source for you.
@jpwillia30ge You mean defending itself after Iraq invaded Iran? This was a tragedy, but it was also murder. You show a complete lack of historical knowledge (thinking somehow Iran was at fault for the war) and are willing to lie to defend the USA's actions (they were in foreign sovereign waters - shot down and killed people flying in sovereign air space). The Iranians had not been aggressive, and Rogers has repeatedly been cited as being far too aggressive. Learn some facts.
@jpwillia30ge The USA murdered 290 civilians, in their own country (mostly), without a formal declaration of war. Simple as that. If Iran (or anyone else) showed up on American shores and shot down a plane, I doubt you'd be rushing to defend them like this ... why the double standard? In this instance the Russians made a mistake, the Americans committed murder, its simple as that.
@jpwillia30ge The USA murdered 290 civilians, in their own country (mostly), without a formal declaration of war. Simple as that. If Iran (or anyone else) showed up on American shores and shot down a plane, I doubt you'd be rushing to defend them like this ... why the double standard? In this instance the Russians made a mistake, the Americans committed murder, its simple as that.
@pubuman I don't think the captain of the carrier intentionally shot down the plane. As was the case with the Russians, he thought it was enemy aircraft. I repeat, once again, he tried several times to initiate contact with the aircraft. I'm not saying it's the pilot's fault but just a tragic set of consequences. So I don't see any double standard. Actually, the two cases are quite similar. And I'm not defending the American captain because I'm from the States....
@pubuman It just boils down to people blaming my country for every little problem in the world. Sweetie, I'm gonna tell you something. I've heard it all, and it gets old after a while. Like my grandmother said, "Shit stinks period." And if I'm not mistaken, there were confrontations between Iranian and American vessels in the Persian Gulf at the time. So the US carrier didn't just show up and say, "I'm gonna get me sum' Iranians."
@jpwillia30ge The USA murdered 290 civilians, in their own country (mostly), without a formal declaration of war. Simple as that. If Iran (or anyone else) showed up on American shores and shot down a plane, I doubt you'd be rushing to defend them like this ... why the double standard? In this instance the Russians made a mistake, the Americans committed murder, its simple as that.
How dare the U.S. military provide the evidence that exonerates the Soviets!!! Clearly, it was all part of a clever plot to bring down the Evil Empire!
By far, the most intriguing crash investigation. Like they say, not one thing brings down an airliner, but a series of mishaps. This one was no different. From the pilots not locking onto their way points, the US spy plane flying close to the Soviet border and the catastrophic climb by the plane while being tracked eventually brought down the plane. A lot of blame to go around, but the fighter pilot was just doing his job. My sympathy for the affected victims of the Cold War. Best episode ever.
was it an ERROR or was it set-up why would a spy plane b in the same place the air-liner was. if they was a spy plane it should have told the air-liner it was HEADDING OFF CORSE AND SAVE THE CIVILAINS AND CANCEL IT MISSION.or did it use the air-liner as a skeap-goat .or did the us know but didn't say anything not to get other nation mad cuase of their stupitedty that's the question i ask's
If they forgot to off INS, it wouldn't be a big problem! However, in short, the plane was at the wrong place (Russian Territory) at the wrong time (1983, Cold War Peak Year)!
if this happened in the us i'm preety sure they recognize is a passenger plane,fucking russians wanna proove toff :( too bad the only who loose are the people who died
The Soviets shot down a Korean civilian passenger airline that had inadvertently crossed into their territory after dark; a terrible tragedy. We (the United States) shot down an Iranian civilian passenger airline in Iranian territory traveling in a commercial air corridor in broad daylight. Makes me sick every time I think about it.
@workingstiff76 Someone label mislabeled it as a f-14 though and before Us did sent out warnings but no one respond. Iran was using passager airport to launch military planes. This guy was tracking it and saw in the air. He saw the lights but still shot it down. Soviets kept the black box hidden for ten years the us did not.
Here there is no fault of the pilot. For not performance of the order - he could be executed. The convergence of circumstances has occurred. In this space there was also an American scout plane RC-135. The Soviet command those years very much was nervous and without understanding, what and which is the plane, have given the order.
At least the Soviets didn't go into Korean territorial waters and shoot down a KAL flight that was flying in its own airspace ... like the Americans did with Iran Air... and at least they didn't reward the pilot and all involved with medals. That makes what they did a complete accident, where as the Americans were 1000s of miles from America, and put simply murdered 100s of people. Yes this was really sad, but at least it wasn't murder.
@pubuman I completely agree. Imagine what would happen if the Iranians shot down an American Airlines jet in the Gulf of Mexico that was flying from Tampa to Dallas and then denied doing anything wrong. That is exactly what we did to them.
@pubuman Wrong! The Americans were in the middle of a battle with Iranian gun boats that were shooting at anything to prevent Iraq from exporting oil. And the captain tried to establish contact with the aircraft and the pilot didn't respond. Did the Russian pilot do that? Oh wait, he used warning cannons that weren't loaded with tracers because the Soviets were so efficient. And at least the American expressed remorse. The Russian swears to this day that KL 007 was a spy.
@jpwillia30ge That is absolute nonsense. There was some communication on civ channels, but the Americans misrepresented the speed by 50 kts (thus leading the pilots to believe he was talking to a different aircraft). Iranian gun boats weren't shooting everything, that's a complete misrepresentation of facts (Carlson, Fisk 2005). Furthermore, the Americans had followed Iranian boats INTO IRANIAN TERRITORIAL WATERS! Do you know what the Americans would have called it? An act of terrorism.
@jpwillia30ge That is absolute nonsense. There was some communication on civ channels, but the Americans misrepresented the speed by 50 kts (thus leading the pilots to believe he was talking to a different aircraft). Iranian gun boats weren't shooting everything, that's a complete misrepresentation of facts (Carlson, Fisk 2005). Furthermore, the Americans had followed Iranian boats INTO IRANIAN TERRITORIAL WATERS! Do you know what the Americans would have called it? An act of terrorism.
@jpwillia30ge That is absolute nonsense. There was some communication on civ channels, but the Americans misrepresented the speed by 50 kts (thus leading the pilots to believe he was talking to a different aircraft). Iranian gun boats weren't shooting everything, that's a complete misrepresentation of facts (Carlson, Fisk 2005). Furthermore, the Americans had followed Iranian boats INTO IRANIAN TERRITORIAL WATERS! Do you know what the Americans would have called it? An act of terrorism.
@jpwillia30ge The Russian controllers tried to make contact (read the actual report on this incident) for hours (both when the initial violation of airspace happened) and before the shoot down. The KAL was flying over highly restricted airspace (where the US equivalent protocol is an immediate shoot-down if no ident). Russia apologized when they handed over the FDRs. The US has NEVER apologized for the murders, they said they were sad for the loss of life. It was their fault and no one elses.
@jpwillia30ge The Russian controllers tried to make contact (read the actual report on this incident) for hours (both when the initial violation of airspace happened) and before the shoot down. The KAL was flying over highly restricted airspace (where the US equivalent protocol is an immediate shoot-down if no ident). Russia apologized when they handed over the FDRs. The US has NEVER apologized for the murders, they said they were sad for the loss of life. It was their fault and no one elses.
@jpwillia30ge The Russians tried for several hours to make contact (read the actual report) - after the first violation of restricted airspace, and then after the violation of highly restricted airspace (before the shoot down). Russia apologized during the time they were handing over the FDRs. The USA never apologized for murdering 290 people, and maintains it did nothing wrong (when in fact what it did is illegal by all international laws).
@jpwillia30ge The Russians tried for several hours to make contact (read the actual report) - after the first violation of restricted airspace, and then after the violation of highly restricted airspace (before the shoot down). Russia apologized during the time they were handing over the FDRs. The USA never apologized for murdering 290 people, and maintains it did nothing wrong (when in fact what it did is illegal by all international laws).
@pubuman And the Iranians violated international law when they took the American diplomats hostage. Like I say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
@jpwillia30ge WHAT?! You mean when a group of militia with nothing to do with the Iranian govt took hostages, that somehow meant that Iran violated international law? By that logic whenever some idiot takes hostages in a bank in the USA the USA is violating international law! How ignorant of the facts are you? And I suppose what the Americans did in 53 - overthrowing the democratic elected leader to reinstate an absolute monarch - was perfectly fine? Stop being so hypocritical!
@pubuman Ignorant of the facts? Wow, I think you've been smoking on too much government propoganda from whatever country you are. Looks like religion isn't the only opium of the masses. And if you think the United States overthrowing a democratically elected government in '53 is wrong, how do you justify Iran's influence over Hezbollah in Lebanon? Or Syria's sponsorship over the Lebanese prime minister's assassination? And for your own information....
@jpwillia30ge I don't - that's the whole point. No where did I say I support the current Iranian govt. I think Iran's government and the fact that the Ayatollah has this much influence is despicable. However, had the Shah not been reinstated the current Iranian govt would not be in power. It would pay for you to note that while the democratically elected govt weren't overwhelming US supporters, they certainly were secular (as was the govt just before AK).
@pubuman Ok, once again, you're the one distorting the facts. The democratically elected government was certainly secular? That's news to me. And I never said you supported the current Iranian government. My point is that you try to blame America for all the evils in the world, witness your statement regarding the Korean Air incident, in order to draw atttention away from other nations' shortcoming. Why would you even say that about a program strictly dealing with Korea and the former USSR?
@jpwillia30ge Are you saying that the govt in '53 was theocratic? I'm not blaming America for all the evils of the world. I am blaming them for the massive disparity in the response to what happened after KAL 007 and Iran Air 655. And I blame both America and the USSR for the unrest in the middle east, but America more than the USSR because of what was done historically (but not much more). TBH Europe has a lot to answer for as well in this context.
@pubuman I never said that the United States was an angel when it comes to foreign policy. But neither is Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel (just to prove I'm not biased) or Iran, especially. And at least we have independent commissions to investigate such matters. What does the Islamic theocracy of Iran do whenever there's opposition? Oh, they imprison all dissent, witness the past elections when there was massive fraud...
@pubuman I never said that the United States was an angel when it comes to foreign policy. But neither is Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel (just to prove I'm not biased) or Iran, especially. And at least we have independent commissions to investigate such matters. What does the Islamic theocracy of Iran do whenever there's opposition? Oh, they imprison all dissent, witness the past elections when there was massive fraud...
@pubuman I never said that the United States was an angel when it comes to foreign policy. But neither is Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel (just to prove I'm not biased) or Iran, especially. And at least we have independent commissions to investigate such matters. What does the Islamic theocracy of Iran do whenever there's opposition? Oh, they imprison all dissent, witness the past elections when there was massive fraud...
@pubuman My so-called hypocrisy isn't the problem here. It's your lack of a comprehensive overview of what's actually involved in international politics. Finally, during the interview, the captain didn't seem overjoyed over the idea of killing civilians. Nope, there's no "Death to Iran" murals painted on the side of the Empire State Building, like you see in Teheran....
@jpwillia30ge Again you've confused the issue. The entire issue squarely dates back to the overthrow of the govt in 53. There was no anti - Americanism in Iran prior to that, and certainly there was no theocracy then. And there was no sponsorship of terrorist groups. Even Israel had the support of that govt (and the one just after the Shah, before AK). During the 25 years of the Shah's oppressive rule the religious fanatics were able to rally support under the guise of freedom...
@pubuman That's bullshit. That's like saying there was no anti-Americanism in Europe until Bush came to power. And if the people couldn't see that one coming, that's their own problem. I mean, who could fall for the idea that Khomeni would set up a secular government?! Oh well, the same will probably happen with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. And what issue exactly have I confused? You seem to throw out little phrases to insult me, yet they have no link to the issue at hand.
@jpwillia30ge Ok, I was wrong, but there was no *major* anti Americanism. Are you saying before '53 there was major Anti Americanism in the ME, what about prior to '48? Really? Um ... I don't think I said people thought AK would set up a secular govt. (If I did then I was wrong). What I said was in the 25 years of Shah rule AK like people were able to sink the claws into the most impressionable of people and build a strong support base. No one thought that AK would be democratic.
@pubuman Also, maybe you should let me finish my comments before you start another diatribe of dribble. Are you glued to youtube 24/7? Don't you have other things to do other than type comments under a video that has nothing to do with the topic at hand?
@pubuman That's why I'm not fond of international law. As far as I'm concerned, it just perpetrates self-interests, so ultimately, it's no different than national governments trying to protect their interests at all costs. So nations, especially France, Germany, the UK and Iran, all cry bloody murder but do you really think it's because they want to protect human rights? In my opinion, nope. That's just a line they throw at their constituents to maintain support.
@jpwillia30ge Yes, I agree with that. But my point is that us as the citizens should refrain from applying the same double standards, and demand better from our supposed representatives. I think that we should demand a change in foreign policy that has room to interfere with other nations and their democratically elected governments etc. And I don't mean that about the USA only. I think all govts the world around are guilty of it, but some have the means to carry out their plans (USA, USSR etc).
@pubuman And the Iranian government does the same with its nuclear program. "Oh, it's for civilian purposes." Give me a break. We weren't born yesterday. So no, the American government is no angle. But neither is the Russian one, the Chinese one, the French one, the Iranian one nor the Israeli one. The French say, "Avec des si et des mais on mettrait Paris en bouteille." In other words, you can use any means to justify your position.
@jpwillia30ge The Iranian gov is a disgraceful and frankly barbaric entity (in fact as are all the ME theocracies + Vatican), - but my problem is with the American (and Soviet) actions that undermine other nation's public will. My problem is that we expect them to take it, while we would never ever accept such interference. This is what I mean by hypocrisy. Whatever the situation, if a foreign warship had downed an US plane in US airspace we would be crying bloody murder (and rightly so).
@pubuman Of course we would. But look at the other governments around the world: France in West Africa, the NATO intervention in Libya. Do you really think France gives a rat's ass about human rights over there? On the other hand, Libya does have oil reserves. Hmmmmm, really makes you think.
And that includes making the Soviet damage seem less harmful by using the Americans as a scapegoat. My friend, I've lived and traveled in many countries throughout the world and listening to people say everything is the fault of the United States gets quite old after a while, especially when you see nothing but egotistical people around you using my country as a scapegoat to mask their own country's corruption. I even had a Japanese lady tell me the Americans are responsible for all ills.
@jpwillia30ge But the situation here and the one of Iran Air are completely different. Technically (not morally) the Soviets were well within their rights to shoot this plane down. The Americans were thousands of miles from home and in another country's sovereign waters. If you read the reports that floated around after this incident and the reports after the Iran Air incident a huge bias is blatantly obvious. I'm not saying that this was less harmful than IA, because frankly it wasn't.
@pubuman long story short america was way out of its mandate to shoot the Iranian airbus down. G Bush is an arrogant bastard who should have apologized for its actions. this incident and many others is why no one really welcomes american influence to their part of the world!
@anikadamali Right, so what's the alternative? China? Russia? Surveys conducted time and time again show that people prefer US leadership, albeit not perfect, to the former two.
@pubuman But with the Iran Air case, the US called to the plane to identify itself, but after numerous calls, it did not respond. therefore, the US shot it down. also the captain waited untill the last minute to fire.
@Matthew9447 Not on the correct frequency, and they used an incorrect call sign. The Iran Air airplane had no idea it was being hailed. And most of all, it was shot down in its OWN sovereign airspace, even if that plane was an F-14 what the US did would be completely wrong and illegal - furthermore the US warship was inside Iranian territorial waters ... If you read about *this* case, you';; see that the Russians also attempted to hail KAL007.
@Matthew9447 Futhermore, the captain DIDN'T wait till the last minute to fire, the Iran Air plane was climbing away, and the claim was that it was diving ... which was bullshit ...
@jpwillia30ge What I'm saying is that what the US did is far worse, in terms of the responsibility they had. Not in terms of harm done. Both events were just as tragic as each other.
@pubuman Like I said, how was it different? The Americans thought it was hostile aircraft, and the USSR thought it was a spy plane. How is the responsibility different? Ultimately, they both killed several hundred civilians.
@pubuman Needless to say, I didn't want to have anything to do with her after that brief exchange, and she seemed puzzled as to why. And it's well-known that they massacred people in Manchuria before the outbreak of WWII. Like I said, hypocrisy exists on all levels, but that was just a blatant form of it. You can't always have your cake and eat it, too.
@pubuman And right now, several families are living without their loved ones. The Soviet pilot could have at least offered an apology and say that he's sorry the system failed. To this very day, he maintains that it was a spy plane. If you think people should face up to hard evidence, tell him, not me. Personally, I would have felt horrible had I been in his shoes. But it's just protecting his image and failing to admit he can do any wrong. Real mature.
@jpwillia30ge Honestly I would if I could. But I also think that if he ever admitted to himself that he killed 269 people he would not be able to live with it. I don't think he's protecting his image, he's protecting his mind - (not saying that is right).
@pubuman Precisely, whereas the American admitted his responsibility. In fact, as you said, he was cited as being too aggressive. He was court martialed. The American military didn't cut him any slack, even though Iran is not among the 10 most popular countries in the States right now, and I certainly know that wasn't the case back then. Do you think the Soviets were that transparent with their pilot?
@jpwillia30ge He wasn't court martial-ed (he may have been investigated) ... that's utter nonsense, and the Americans never admitted fault (that is undeniable fact). At least stop trying to twist reality ...
@pubuman Right, and did the Iranian government ever admit fault when militants stormed the U.S. embassy in 1979? No, they didn't. Instead, they recently looted the British embassy and caused other EU countries to close theirs down. And maybe he wasn't court-martialed. Maybe he was just investigated. I can only repeat what I've heard and read from different sources. But what you say isn't the almighty Gospel either. And like I said,....
@jpwillia30ge No, they didn't. But I never said they did - I was responding to the "admission of fault and apology" bit - which categorically untrue. Saying that the US did do that *is* twisting reality. What I say isn't the gospel, but I provided sources to back up my points. I'm never said nor am saying that Iran is somehow better than the US or anything of the sort, although most of your counter points seem to try and establish that the US is better (which is not in dispute).
@pubuman the Russian pilot expressed no remorse whatsoever. At least the American captain had the integrity to do that. Discussions with you are like talking to a brick wall, and the same can be said after reading all the other anti-US discourse up here. You all listen to the same dribbel spouted off by your respective media in each country and label a nation of 310 million people as Texas idiots, yet you come over here and ABRACADABA, want to stay all of a sudden.
@jpwillia30ge Wrong again. There are plenty of great things about the USA (I already said that) - but US foreign policy is rubbish - and any foreign policy is and should be criticized on its own merits. Saying some other nation's policy is worse is not a defense of bad policy. That seems to be the point that you are missing. This isn't simply America bashing, its a indication of how hypocritical American FP is. And that's not saying anything about anyone else's FP.
@jpwillia30ge When did I label all American's as Texas idiots? (In fact there are plenty of Texans who are far from being idiots) - when did I ever make general comments about the American people? All I have done through out is comment of US FP. But somehow you have taken that as an attack on the American public. How do you know what media I listen to?
@pubuman I swear, some people are truly pathetic. And you, pubuman, you could at least respond to my content rather than selecting a segement of it and say I'm twisting reality.
@pubuman Stop using the US as a scapegoat and take on a more global perspective. If you're going to use the US as a counterexample, then you might as well address the doings of France, Great Britain, Venezuela and countless other nations who have committed atrocities that are mild in comparison to the Iranian incident. Truly disgusting.
@jpwillia30ge A scapegoat? When did France or GB or Venezuela ever shoot down a large civilian airliner in someone else's territorial waters and flying in someone else's airspace? Taking this further if you wish, when did France, GB, Ven overthrow democratically elected leaders in other countries and install puppet govts? When did they use drug money to fund para military groups fighting legitimate elected govts?
@jpwillia30ge The reason the US was used here was because they are the other example of at least a similar incident - there are no other comparable incidents ...
@pubuman Your rants show that you are so hell-bent on tearing down the United States rather than taking a more moderate approach and realizing that foreign affairs are a messy business that have produced unspeakable hardship as well as a lot of good, nonetheless. Do you even read everything I post or do you just select a fragment and make some slap-happy comment?
@jpwillia30ge If that were the case I would be criticizing the USA itself, and not its FP. I would be accusing its citizens of doing whatever (I'm not). I would calling into question US national affairs and FP (again, I'm not). Criticizing one's FP is not an attack on the country. I do read what you post, but you are taking it as an attack on the USA, when it isn't. Are you seriously going to argue that US FP has caused more good than harm?
@pubuman And as for reality, if you've learned anything from life, it's that one man's reality is another's lie. Your stance is kind of simplistic to say the least.
@pubuman I'm sorry, but you're notion of objective reality is anything but objective. Behind everyone's statement proclaiming "reality" is a healthy dose of subjectivity. As far as GB, France or Venezuela are concerned, they may not have shot down civilian planes but that is not the only way to cause civilian casualties. Do you really think European colonialism was benevolent in scope? Do you also think it ended during the 1960s? If so, you definitely need a reality check.
@pubuman And in the end, the fact that Russia was logistically within its rights to shoot down the plane still doesn't justify the killing of innocent civilians. You go to Russia and see how humanely they treat political refugees and people of a different ethnic origin. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out which society is more just.
@jpwillia30ge Again, this has nothing to do with the internal workings of Russia, I have not made comments about the internal workings of the USA ... You seem to really misunderstand this concept ...
@pubuman Some of the most brutal dictatorships in Africa were brought about by European as well as American meddling into their own domestic affairs. I repeat, I'm not defending America's FP, as you call it, wholeheartedly. But you nonetheless single out my country as a scapegoat when other atrocities have been committed in the name of freedom or even "la mission civilisatrice." And this attitude has remained unchanged.
@pubuman Once again, I'm going to drive my point home in the hope that it'll get through that thick skull of yours, but I have my doubts: American foreign policy is far from perfect, but I don't think Russia, China or the EU could provide a better alternative. The EU has been trying to do the same thing for years and quite frankly, it's more of the same thing; each country looks out for its interests.
@pubuman Above all, rather than offer some type of condolences to the victims, you post some petty comment along the lines of "Well, at least Russia didn't do like the US and etc....." Go talk to some of the citizens of the former Soviet republics to find out more about "Russian glory", and then we'll talk. You may not have stated that Americans are all Texas idiots, but it always starts with foreign policy before people proceed to hammer out how stupid we are.
@pubuman And all of this comes from people who couldn't write their names forwards or backwards if their lives depended on it. Therefore, quit blamming the United States for every single problem in the world at every chance you get and tackle the "rubbish" of not only American foreign policy but also of other countries, including that of Iran. You're too one-sided.
@jpwillia30ge Again you've confused the issue. The entire issue squarely dates back to the overthrow of the govt in 53. There was no anti - Americanism in Iran prior to that, and certainly there was no theocracy then. And there was no sponsorship of terrorist groups. Even Israel had the support of that govt (and the one just after the Shah, before AK). During the 25 years of the Shah's oppressive rule the religious fanatics were able to rally support under the guise of freedom...
@jpwillia30ge Alright, lets do this point by point. I noticed you also entered the same text twice. Is it possible that was simply an error in youtube? or does what you say here apply to your comments as well? Now to move onto the other points ...
@pubuman And the government of Iran could have ordered the militia to let the hostages go. And at least there's no ban on Muslim veils in the United States like in France. We don't impose our religion on Muslims, but when our women go to Iran, God forbid, they have to cover up. I once went to the airport in Philadelphia and no one said anything about a Muslim employee wearing her head scarf. Your anti-Americanism is despicable and distorts all sense of reality....
@jpwillia30ge Ah! so ignorant! You do realize the hostages were taken by a "group" loyal to the AK, and the govt had no influence over them? You do realize the govt tried desperate maneuvers to free the hostages? You do realize that govt had no "Islamic" leanings right? Furthermore, you've labelled my criticism of certain actions by America as anti - American, but no where was I anti American. I think the American constitution and the idea of secularism is govt is one of the greatest ...
@pubuman Ah! So full of yourself. The government couldn't control a group of people on its own territory? Well geez, that really reassures everyone about the future in Egypt and Tunisia. And since you like to cite reports so much, I'm sure you'd like to cite your claim that the government tried to free the hostages. And quite frankly, I don't care if you hate my country or not. Like I said, everyone saying, "Well, at least we didn't do like the Americans..."
Like I said, everyone saying, "Well, at least we didn't do like the Americans..." is a smokescreen to cover up one's shortcomings. I don't even know why you make such a comment on a forum that has nothing to do with the United States.
@jpwillia30ge ... greatest achievements in human politics and rule. And I think the fact that Fred Phelps and his family can do what they do is the reason the world should look to the IDEAL of American politics and rule and say, those guys have it right. But ideology aside, I can criticize American international policy, but that doesn't make me anti - American. People like you use that phrase to paint all critics of the USA under the same brush, so you can live on in ignorance and hypocrisy.
@pubuman And at least our government isn't going around saying certain countries should be wiped off the map. Moreover, your comparison to taking hostages in a bank doesn't apply. According to the Geneva Conventions, it's against international law to take diplomats hostage. Taking hostages in a US bank is a domestic issue. I think you need to get your facts straight. And although Iran overthrew the Shah, they could have at least ushered in a democratic government....
@jpwillia30ge ... greatest achievements in human politics and rule. And I think the fact that Fred Phelps and his family can do what they do is the reason the world should look to the IDEAL of American politics and rule and say, those guys have it right. But ideology aside, I can criticize American international policy, but that doesn't make me anti - American. People like you use that phrase to paint all critics of the USA under the same brush, so you can live on in ignorance and hypocrisy.
i do not know how it felt to live in those years but could the crash case an all out war? can some one who lived during those years say what was the feeling of the people during this time?
alonmerlin 2 days ago
So, countries listen to other countries like that?
LosParedonesMexico 1 week ago
Also if this had happened in the daytime, the MiG pilot would have seen that it was clearly a 747. They were at the wrong place at the wrong time. The US government pissed them off earlier that night with their spy plane and the Korean Air flight ended up paying the price.
sunnchilde 1 week ago
Captain Chun Byung-In was an experienced pilot and flew this route many times. The pilots were purposely led astray by the tampered auto pilot system and/or US military stations. The US Air Force tracking station destroyed the tracking tapes 30 hours after the attack. Rep Larry MacDonald was the target because he wanted to investigate the Trilateral Commission and Council on Foreign Relations plus he was running for President, which would have exposed the Rothschild-led Jewish New World Order.
sgmpmr 2 weeks ago
@sgmpmr how do you know all this???
TheJoker91339 1 week ago
The Russian Fighter Pilot Implies To The Interviewer..After He Fires The Fatal Missile..'' I Saw The Lights Go Off & The Plane Go Down' So i went Home....lol..Still Livin In Denial Some 27 Years Later.[to Him it's All in a Day's Work]..
TheCBKstudios 3 weeks ago
@TheCBKstudios like james oberg in the interview i think he just didn't want to believe he killed all those people by mistake.
imagine living with that the rest of your life.
i'm pretty sure in his version of the story he shot down the spy-plane, disregarding the fact it made it home safely (i assume).
but i can't blame him for that.
i actually felt pretty sorry for him.
RufftaMan 5 days ago
I believe that the fighter pilot must be suffering his mind may lie but his concience will not. I truely feel sorry for him carrying that burden for the rest of his life.
legmanpv72 3 weeks ago
The first fighter waht were they MIG-17 or wath when they are not evan able to get a 747
gideon5656 3 weeks ago
I shall not blame the Jet striker.
deepakismyname 3 weeks ago
I don't know why, but I love watching this channel!
gabriela123star 1 month ago
Luna1362 The Russian gave warning shots and then flew within view of the Korean pilots, he checked it out and gave all the warning he had to. Maybe you should think before you send such nonsense.
shcnoozlebop 1 month ago
The mistakes were on the Korean pilots' part, the Russian fighter did everything he was supposed to and believed 100% it was an enemy spy plane. The families were only looking for someone to blame.
shcnoozlebop 1 month ago
i automatically knew they went off course and got shot down . however the tail wind thing did confuse me a little.
KidKlassic91 1 month ago
RIP...
maeda1208 1 month ago
I love the presenter of this program.. specially the way he speak..nice job..NGC guys
unnikrishnanck1982 1 month ago
My sympothy and condolence to all those who lost their family members/friends and relatives in this accident...I am with u guys....
unnikrishnanck1982 1 month ago
the guys mouth on 21.02 scares the shit out of me
Ceviok2 1 month ago
IN SOVIET RUSSIA, AIRSPACE INVADES YOU!
theblacksheep1000 1 month ago
@ktriyas At least the Americans had their share of the blunder. They also compensated the families of the victims. The Soviets are the real losers. They denied any involvement and refused to compensate the families of the victims.
Themultiroleman 1 month ago
@emma84770 . . So wat mate ? ACI cant kill their actors after the plane on episode crashes :) .. We just need to know wat happened !! Its a re-enactment !! There ll be actors who ll repeat !! Philipines air bombing terrorist played the role of the co-pilot in the Turkish DC-10 crash !!
Manikandanj26 1 month ago
@Manikandanj26 Yeah, you can probably find a lot of the actors who play cabincrews also appear in other roles like NTSB workers as well.
mjyfs 1 month ago
They said the plane climbed after the attack, bt they show the plane diving after the attack !!
Manikandanj26 1 month ago
@Manikandanj26 no,first the plane climbed then got shoot.
abuLOoL92 3 weeks ago
The guy playing the Captain of this flight is the same guy who played the Captain of JAL Flight 123 - come on ACI!
emma84770 1 month ago
((
E352100 2 months ago
the americans did talk to the plane first although they got no answer. the soviats didn't get in touch with the plane to let them know, nor did they give them a chance to leave
luna1632 2 months ago
@luna1632 by your logic if a US plane flying over US territory doesn't give me an answer I can fire a missile to destroy it because I'm on my military mission nearby.
BCEMCOCATb 2 months ago
@BCEMCOCATb no, but by contacting the plane via radio they could have alerted the plane it was in soviat air space, and given the plae a chance to leave rather than just shout it down. it was diffrent from the american isident as that was with a boat on the ground and they had no visial ability to see the plane, where as the fight could see the plane and look inside, as they did with the helios flight
luna1632 2 months ago
@luna1632 Actually. The Soviets shoting down planes was hardly something new at the time. But then it is understandable considdering how many spy planes the US and other nato countries sent over into the Soviet airspace over the decades before this incident. US relies heavely on spy planes even today (like the one captured by Iran a few weeks ago), which I don't really understand, One would think that they could use spy satellites for that, things that can't be detected.
mjyfs 1 month ago
On the other hand, the Soviets had a habit of over-reacting and would hardly shy away from lying about some aspects. in 1952 a Swedish DC:3 was shot down over international water by Soviet fighters (the DC:3 was a spyplane providing Nato with information), the next day a Swedish Catalina plane was also shot down while looking for teh lost DC:3. The Soviets claimed it was over Soviet airspace and that it had attacked the fighters (which was impossible).
mjyfs 1 month ago
@ktriyas yes but the americans did try to contact the plane first. the russians din't even talk to the plane and give them a chance to leave soviat air space
luna1632 2 months ago
@ktriyas yes, but they did try to contact the plane first, and no reply was given. the russians din't even tell the plane there were in soviat air space and give them a chance to leave
luna1632 2 months ago
shouldn't the russian's have contacted the flight first
luna1632 2 months ago
@ktriyas That was actually the real cause of Pan Am flight 103.
fraroc 2 months ago
42:00 - why would the Soviet fighter pilot have been in danger? Even if it really had been an RC-135 spy plane rather than a civilian jetliner, the RC-135 doesn't carry anti-aircraft weapons IIRC.
GCarty80 2 months ago
@GCarty80 the aircraft dropped down the speed. If the Soviet pilot dropped the speed to the same level, he would fall down. So the danger was either falling down or a chance to lose an aircraft.
BCEMCOCATb 2 months ago
Many of you choose to blame the Russians. But if the 007 crew were on the correct course, the Russians wouldn't shoot it down. Also, if USAF detected what they deemed to be a Russian spy plane over US airspace, what do think would happen?
Fortstorm 2 months ago
@Fortstorm I'm not blaming the Russians for anything, but every coin has two sides. And if countries like Iran and Russia hadn't been so aggressive in the first place, maybe this whole fiasco could have been avoided in the first place.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
If US is not spying on that night, the passenger might have a chance!
holonono 3 months ago
hey wasnt the captain of this video also the same guy who was in the JAL 123 documentary??
britishairwayspilot1 3 months ago
I was my first day in school...
maciejskrobisz 3 months ago
This is the worst piece of "facts" ever assembled for television. Somewhere in Texas, a village idiot, sitting in his trailer probably believes this episode is factual because he's never picked up a book in his life or studied primary source material.
Servodude1 3 months ago
Soviet Radar: "It's flight 007."
Soviet General: "007 ?? It's James Bond's british spy plane, SHOOT IT DOWN NOW !!"
TommyIrianto 3 months ago 2
@TommyIrianto before i saw this episode i laughed at your comment. after i finished it. i dont see that comment as a good joke anymore
Matthew9447 1 month ago
Who else thinks the beginning of the crash sequence reminded them of Flight 180 from Final Destination?
fraroc 3 months ago
us military have advanced and cool gadgets!!
101rigel 3 months ago
@ktriyas Good point.
He would have been demoted or even relived of duty NOT Honoured.
mattstorm360 3 months ago
let there be peace everywhere - no war
sumittechkgp 4 months ago
Sad and Tragic...
GalaxyMaster99 4 months ago
There is no hypocrisy my friend as far as I can see. But nonetheless, everyone is guilty of hypocrisy. The mere act of accusing someone is hypocritical within itself. If you've ever been around civil servants for international organizations, you'll see how corrupt and depraved they really are: supervisors trying to seduce interns in exchange for favors, interns getting hired based on their looks rather than skills etc....
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
If those Iranian thugs hadn't been involved with their petty little rivalry with Hussein, maybe things would have been different. It's indeed a tragedy, but it could have been avoided if the Iranian government hadn't been so aggresive in the first place.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge You mean defending itself after Iraq attacked Iran? This was a tragedy, but it was also murder. You show a complete lack of historical knowledge (thinking somehow Iran was at fault for the war) and are willing to lie to defend the USA's actions (they were in foreign sovereign waters - shot down and killed people flying in sovereign air space). The Iranians had not been aggressive, and Rogers has repeatedly been cited as being far too aggressive. Learn some facts.
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman And you my friend exhibit an arrogance and short-sightedness that explains why wars break out in the first place. Your view of "historical knowledge" is not the ultimate truth. What facts are you referring to? What's stated in the Iranian newspapers? Yeah, now there's an objective source for you.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge You mean defending itself after Iraq invaded Iran? This was a tragedy, but it was also murder. You show a complete lack of historical knowledge (thinking somehow Iran was at fault for the war) and are willing to lie to defend the USA's actions (they were in foreign sovereign waters - shot down and killed people flying in sovereign air space). The Iranians had not been aggressive, and Rogers has repeatedly been cited as being far too aggressive. Learn some facts.
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The USA murdered 290 civilians, in their own country (mostly), without a formal declaration of war. Simple as that. If Iran (or anyone else) showed up on American shores and shot down a plane, I doubt you'd be rushing to defend them like this ... why the double standard? In this instance the Russians made a mistake, the Americans committed murder, its simple as that.
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The USA murdered 290 civilians, in their own country (mostly), without a formal declaration of war. Simple as that. If Iran (or anyone else) showed up on American shores and shot down a plane, I doubt you'd be rushing to defend them like this ... why the double standard? In this instance the Russians made a mistake, the Americans committed murder, its simple as that.
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman I don't think the captain of the carrier intentionally shot down the plane. As was the case with the Russians, he thought it was enemy aircraft. I repeat, once again, he tried several times to initiate contact with the aircraft. I'm not saying it's the pilot's fault but just a tragic set of consequences. So I don't see any double standard. Actually, the two cases are quite similar. And I'm not defending the American captain because I'm from the States....
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@pubuman It just boils down to people blaming my country for every little problem in the world. Sweetie, I'm gonna tell you something. I've heard it all, and it gets old after a while. Like my grandmother said, "Shit stinks period." And if I'm not mistaken, there were confrontations between Iranian and American vessels in the Persian Gulf at the time. So the US carrier didn't just show up and say, "I'm gonna get me sum' Iranians."
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
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@jpwillia30ge The USA murdered 290 civilians, in their own country (mostly), without a formal declaration of war. Simple as that. If Iran (or anyone else) showed up on American shores and shot down a plane, I doubt you'd be rushing to defend them like this ... why the double standard? In this instance the Russians made a mistake, the Americans committed murder, its simple as that.
pubuman 4 months ago
34:14 - Was that John Locke from LOST in a pilot's uniform? The plot thickens.
pmcmanus420 4 months ago
How dare the U.S. military provide the evidence that exonerates the Soviets!!! Clearly, it was all part of a clever plot to bring down the Evil Empire!
pmcmanus420 4 months ago
As the Soviet Union proved, communism was evil AND incompetent!
pmcmanus420 4 months ago
@jfsa380 there was no ATC, the nearest civil major airport was Tokyo. They were over a soviet missile base
historylover54 5 months ago
Wouldn't ATC remind 007 that they got a MIG up their tail?
jfsa380 5 months ago
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jfsa380 5 months ago
By far, the most intriguing crash investigation. Like they say, not one thing brings down an airliner, but a series of mishaps. This one was no different. From the pilots not locking onto their way points, the US spy plane flying close to the Soviet border and the catastrophic climb by the plane while being tracked eventually brought down the plane. A lot of blame to go around, but the fighter pilot was just doing his job. My sympathy for the affected victims of the Cold War. Best episode ever.
magellanmax 5 months ago
was it an ERROR or was it set-up why would a spy plane b in the same place the air-liner was. if they was a spy plane it should have told the air-liner it was HEADDING OFF CORSE AND SAVE THE CIVILAINS AND CANCEL IT MISSION.or did it use the air-liner as a skeap-goat .or did the us know but didn't say anything not to get other nation mad cuase of their stupitedty that's the question i ask's
MrIsrael215 5 months ago 3
@MrIsrael215 I would say, the plane was at the wrong place at the wrong time!
watsupyo888 5 months ago
If they forgot to off INS, it wouldn't be a big problem! However, in short, the plane was at the wrong place (Russian Territory) at the wrong time (1983, Cold War Peak Year)!
watsupyo888 5 months ago
@MrIsrael215 Maybe it was an UAV?
Th3R3alPr0 5 months ago
if this happened in the us i'm preety sure they recognize is a passenger plane,fucking russians wanna proove toff :( too bad the only who loose are the people who died
maxhasis 4 months ago
@maxhasis
Not fucking Russians but your fucking americans who planned this spy action .
termogard 2 months ago
The Captain of this flight is the same like on JAL 123 =)
Bittecheesesagen 5 months ago 3
I absolutely love the series. thanks for uploading this.
dgenx210 5 months ago
Thank God the Soviet Union is dead and gone.
mrceebees14 6 months ago
Yeah flight double O seven was not in a spy mission. James Bond may disagree...
waelibrahim18 6 months ago in playlist Air Crash Investigation/ Air Emergency/ Mayday
The Soviets shot down a Korean civilian passenger airline that had inadvertently crossed into their territory after dark; a terrible tragedy. We (the United States) shot down an Iranian civilian passenger airline in Iranian territory traveling in a commercial air corridor in broad daylight. Makes me sick every time I think about it.
workingstiff76 6 months ago
@workingstiff76 Someone label mislabeled it as a f-14 though and before Us did sent out warnings but no one respond. Iran was using passager airport to launch military planes. This guy was tracking it and saw in the air. He saw the lights but still shot it down. Soviets kept the black box hidden for ten years the us did not.
sweetheart2109 4 months ago
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Kudos to the russians....they are more transparent and fairer than the americans
hemantla 6 months ago
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hemantla 6 months ago
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I'm from USSR. (Forgive my bad English)
Here there is no fault of the pilot. For not performance of the order - he could be executed. The convergence of circumstances has occurred. In this space there was also an American scout plane RC-135. The Soviet command those years very much was nervous and without understanding, what and which is the plane, have given the order.
Nepobedimaja 6 months ago
The documentary does not seem to be accurate. The intelligence gathering devices and the crew operating it are not shown.
ContainmentFailure 6 months ago
thats rite.why doesnt the interveotor pilot make a radio contact with the kal 007 pilot. it doesnt make sense!!
sambudil 6 months ago
Is the captain the same actor from the JAL 123 Episode? lol
AlexxxMeireles 6 months ago
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hassanmirr 6 months ago
At least the Soviets didn't go into Korean territorial waters and shoot down a KAL flight that was flying in its own airspace ... like the Americans did with Iran Air... and at least they didn't reward the pilot and all involved with medals. That makes what they did a complete accident, where as the Americans were 1000s of miles from America, and put simply murdered 100s of people. Yes this was really sad, but at least it wasn't murder.
pubuman 6 months ago 15
@pubuman I completely agree. Imagine what would happen if the Iranians shot down an American Airlines jet in the Gulf of Mexico that was flying from Tampa to Dallas and then denied doing anything wrong. That is exactly what we did to them.
workingstiff76 6 months ago
@pubuman Wrong! The Americans were in the middle of a battle with Iranian gun boats that were shooting at anything to prevent Iraq from exporting oil. And the captain tried to establish contact with the aircraft and the pilot didn't respond. Did the Russian pilot do that? Oh wait, he used warning cannons that weren't loaded with tracers because the Soviets were so efficient. And at least the American expressed remorse. The Russian swears to this day that KL 007 was a spy.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge That is absolute nonsense. There was some communication on civ channels, but the Americans misrepresented the speed by 50 kts (thus leading the pilots to believe he was talking to a different aircraft). Iranian gun boats weren't shooting everything, that's a complete misrepresentation of facts (Carlson, Fisk 2005). Furthermore, the Americans had followed Iranian boats INTO IRANIAN TERRITORIAL WATERS! Do you know what the Americans would have called it? An act of terrorism.
pubuman 4 months ago
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@jpwillia30ge That is absolute nonsense. There was some communication on civ channels, but the Americans misrepresented the speed by 50 kts (thus leading the pilots to believe he was talking to a different aircraft). Iranian gun boats weren't shooting everything, that's a complete misrepresentation of facts (Carlson, Fisk 2005). Furthermore, the Americans had followed Iranian boats INTO IRANIAN TERRITORIAL WATERS! Do you know what the Americans would have called it? An act of terrorism.
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge That is absolute nonsense. There was some communication on civ channels, but the Americans misrepresented the speed by 50 kts (thus leading the pilots to believe he was talking to a different aircraft). Iranian gun boats weren't shooting everything, that's a complete misrepresentation of facts (Carlson, Fisk 2005). Furthermore, the Americans had followed Iranian boats INTO IRANIAN TERRITORIAL WATERS! Do you know what the Americans would have called it? An act of terrorism.
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The Russian controllers tried to make contact (read the actual report on this incident) for hours (both when the initial violation of airspace happened) and before the shoot down. The KAL was flying over highly restricted airspace (where the US equivalent protocol is an immediate shoot-down if no ident). Russia apologized when they handed over the FDRs. The US has NEVER apologized for the murders, they said they were sad for the loss of life. It was their fault and no one elses.
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The Russian controllers tried to make contact (read the actual report on this incident) for hours (both when the initial violation of airspace happened) and before the shoot down. The KAL was flying over highly restricted airspace (where the US equivalent protocol is an immediate shoot-down if no ident). Russia apologized when they handed over the FDRs. The US has NEVER apologized for the murders, they said they were sad for the loss of life. It was their fault and no one elses.
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The Russians tried for several hours to make contact (read the actual report) - after the first violation of restricted airspace, and then after the violation of highly restricted airspace (before the shoot down). Russia apologized during the time they were handing over the FDRs. The USA never apologized for murdering 290 people, and maintains it did nothing wrong (when in fact what it did is illegal by all international laws).
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The Russians tried for several hours to make contact (read the actual report) - after the first violation of restricted airspace, and then after the violation of highly restricted airspace (before the shoot down). Russia apologized during the time they were handing over the FDRs. The USA never apologized for murdering 290 people, and maintains it did nothing wrong (when in fact what it did is illegal by all international laws).
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman And the Iranians violated international law when they took the American diplomats hostage. Like I say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge WHAT?! You mean when a group of militia with nothing to do with the Iranian govt took hostages, that somehow meant that Iran violated international law? By that logic whenever some idiot takes hostages in a bank in the USA the USA is violating international law! How ignorant of the facts are you? And I suppose what the Americans did in 53 - overthrowing the democratic elected leader to reinstate an absolute monarch - was perfectly fine? Stop being so hypocritical!
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Ignorant of the facts? Wow, I think you've been smoking on too much government propoganda from whatever country you are. Looks like religion isn't the only opium of the masses. And if you think the United States overthrowing a democratically elected government in '53 is wrong, how do you justify Iran's influence over Hezbollah in Lebanon? Or Syria's sponsorship over the Lebanese prime minister's assassination? And for your own information....
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge I don't - that's the whole point. No where did I say I support the current Iranian govt. I think Iran's government and the fact that the Ayatollah has this much influence is despicable. However, had the Shah not been reinstated the current Iranian govt would not be in power. It would pay for you to note that while the democratically elected govt weren't overwhelming US supporters, they certainly were secular (as was the govt just before AK).
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Ok, once again, you're the one distorting the facts. The democratically elected government was certainly secular? That's news to me. And I never said you supported the current Iranian government. My point is that you try to blame America for all the evils in the world, witness your statement regarding the Korean Air incident, in order to draw atttention away from other nations' shortcoming. Why would you even say that about a program strictly dealing with Korea and the former USSR?
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Are you saying that the govt in '53 was theocratic? I'm not blaming America for all the evils of the world. I am blaming them for the massive disparity in the response to what happened after KAL 007 and Iran Air 655. And I blame both America and the USSR for the unrest in the middle east, but America more than the USSR because of what was done historically (but not much more). TBH Europe has a lot to answer for as well in this context.
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman I never said that the United States was an angel when it comes to foreign policy. But neither is Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel (just to prove I'm not biased) or Iran, especially. And at least we have independent commissions to investigate such matters. What does the Islamic theocracy of Iran do whenever there's opposition? Oh, they imprison all dissent, witness the past elections when there was massive fraud...
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@pubuman I never said that the United States was an angel when it comes to foreign policy. But neither is Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel (just to prove I'm not biased) or Iran, especially. And at least we have independent commissions to investigate such matters. What does the Islamic theocracy of Iran do whenever there's opposition? Oh, they imprison all dissent, witness the past elections when there was massive fraud...
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
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@pubuman I never said that the United States was an angel when it comes to foreign policy. But neither is Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel (just to prove I'm not biased) or Iran, especially. And at least we have independent commissions to investigate such matters. What does the Islamic theocracy of Iran do whenever there's opposition? Oh, they imprison all dissent, witness the past elections when there was massive fraud...
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@pubuman My so-called hypocrisy isn't the problem here. It's your lack of a comprehensive overview of what's actually involved in international politics. Finally, during the interview, the captain didn't seem overjoyed over the idea of killing civilians. Nope, there's no "Death to Iran" murals painted on the side of the Empire State Building, like you see in Teheran....
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Again you've confused the issue. The entire issue squarely dates back to the overthrow of the govt in 53. There was no anti - Americanism in Iran prior to that, and certainly there was no theocracy then. And there was no sponsorship of terrorist groups. Even Israel had the support of that govt (and the one just after the Shah, before AK). During the 25 years of the Shah's oppressive rule the religious fanatics were able to rally support under the guise of freedom...
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman That's bullshit. That's like saying there was no anti-Americanism in Europe until Bush came to power. And if the people couldn't see that one coming, that's their own problem. I mean, who could fall for the idea that Khomeni would set up a secular government?! Oh well, the same will probably happen with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. And what issue exactly have I confused? You seem to throw out little phrases to insult me, yet they have no link to the issue at hand.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Ok, I was wrong, but there was no *major* anti Americanism. Are you saying before '53 there was major Anti Americanism in the ME, what about prior to '48? Really? Um ... I don't think I said people thought AK would set up a secular govt. (If I did then I was wrong). What I said was in the 25 years of Shah rule AK like people were able to sink the claws into the most impressionable of people and build a strong support base. No one thought that AK would be democratic.
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Also, maybe you should let me finish my comments before you start another diatribe of dribble. Are you glued to youtube 24/7? Don't you have other things to do other than type comments under a video that has nothing to do with the topic at hand?
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Of course its entirely impossible for two people to be here at the same time ...
pubuman 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Alright, fair enough, my apologies, continue!
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman That's why I'm not fond of international law. As far as I'm concerned, it just perpetrates self-interests, so ultimately, it's no different than national governments trying to protect their interests at all costs. So nations, especially France, Germany, the UK and Iran, all cry bloody murder but do you really think it's because they want to protect human rights? In my opinion, nope. That's just a line they throw at their constituents to maintain support.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Yes, I agree with that. But my point is that us as the citizens should refrain from applying the same double standards, and demand better from our supposed representatives. I think that we should demand a change in foreign policy that has room to interfere with other nations and their democratically elected governments etc. And I don't mean that about the USA only. I think all govts the world around are guilty of it, but some have the means to carry out their plans (USA, USSR etc).
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman And the Iranian government does the same with its nuclear program. "Oh, it's for civilian purposes." Give me a break. We weren't born yesterday. So no, the American government is no angle. But neither is the Russian one, the Chinese one, the French one, the Iranian one nor the Israeli one. The French say, "Avec des si et des mais on mettrait Paris en bouteille." In other words, you can use any means to justify your position.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The Iranian gov is a disgraceful and frankly barbaric entity (in fact as are all the ME theocracies + Vatican), - but my problem is with the American (and Soviet) actions that undermine other nation's public will. My problem is that we expect them to take it, while we would never ever accept such interference. This is what I mean by hypocrisy. Whatever the situation, if a foreign warship had downed an US plane in US airspace we would be crying bloody murder (and rightly so).
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Of course we would. But look at the other governments around the world: France in West Africa, the NATO intervention in Libya. Do you really think France gives a rat's ass about human rights over there? On the other hand, Libya does have oil reserves. Hmmmmm, really makes you think.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
And that includes making the Soviet damage seem less harmful by using the Americans as a scapegoat. My friend, I've lived and traveled in many countries throughout the world and listening to people say everything is the fault of the United States gets quite old after a while, especially when you see nothing but egotistical people around you using my country as a scapegoat to mask their own country's corruption. I even had a Japanese lady tell me the Americans are responsible for all ills.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge But the situation here and the one of Iran Air are completely different. Technically (not morally) the Soviets were well within their rights to shoot this plane down. The Americans were thousands of miles from home and in another country's sovereign waters. If you read the reports that floated around after this incident and the reports after the Iran Air incident a huge bias is blatantly obvious. I'm not saying that this was less harmful than IA, because frankly it wasn't.
pubuman 4 months ago 7
@pubuman long story short america was way out of its mandate to shoot the Iranian airbus down. G Bush is an arrogant bastard who should have apologized for its actions. this incident and many others is why no one really welcomes american influence to their part of the world!
anikadamali 2 months ago
@anikadamali Right, so what's the alternative? China? Russia? Surveys conducted time and time again show that people prefer US leadership, albeit not perfect, to the former two.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@pubuman But with the Iran Air case, the US called to the plane to identify itself, but after numerous calls, it did not respond. therefore, the US shot it down. also the captain waited untill the last minute to fire.
Matthew9447 1 month ago
@Matthew9447 Not on the correct frequency, and they used an incorrect call sign. The Iran Air airplane had no idea it was being hailed. And most of all, it was shot down in its OWN sovereign airspace, even if that plane was an F-14 what the US did would be completely wrong and illegal - furthermore the US warship was inside Iranian territorial waters ... If you read about *this* case, you';; see that the Russians also attempted to hail KAL007.
pubuman 1 month ago
@Matthew9447 Futhermore, the captain DIDN'T wait till the last minute to fire, the Iran Air plane was climbing away, and the claim was that it was diving ... which was bullshit ...
pubuman 1 month ago
@jpwillia30ge What I'm saying is that what the US did is far worse, in terms of the responsibility they had. Not in terms of harm done. Both events were just as tragic as each other.
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Like I said, how was it different? The Americans thought it was hostile aircraft, and the USSR thought it was a spy plane. How is the responsibility different? Ultimately, they both killed several hundred civilians.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@pubuman Needless to say, I didn't want to have anything to do with her after that brief exchange, and she seemed puzzled as to why. And it's well-known that they massacred people in Manchuria before the outbreak of WWII. Like I said, hypocrisy exists on all levels, but that was just a blatant form of it. You can't always have your cake and eat it, too.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Yes - the Japanese were not angels ... certainly ...
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman And right now, several families are living without their loved ones. The Soviet pilot could have at least offered an apology and say that he's sorry the system failed. To this very day, he maintains that it was a spy plane. If you think people should face up to hard evidence, tell him, not me. Personally, I would have felt horrible had I been in his shoes. But it's just protecting his image and failing to admit he can do any wrong. Real mature.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Honestly I would if I could. But I also think that if he ever admitted to himself that he killed 269 people he would not be able to live with it. I don't think he's protecting his image, he's protecting his mind - (not saying that is right).
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Precisely, whereas the American admitted his responsibility. In fact, as you said, he was cited as being too aggressive. He was court martialed. The American military didn't cut him any slack, even though Iran is not among the 10 most popular countries in the States right now, and I certainly know that wasn't the case back then. Do you think the Soviets were that transparent with their pilot?
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge He wasn't court martial-ed (he may have been investigated) ... that's utter nonsense, and the Americans never admitted fault (that is undeniable fact). At least stop trying to twist reality ...
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman Right, and did the Iranian government ever admit fault when militants stormed the U.S. embassy in 1979? No, they didn't. Instead, they recently looted the British embassy and caused other EU countries to close theirs down. And maybe he wasn't court-martialed. Maybe he was just investigated. I can only repeat what I've heard and read from different sources. But what you say isn't the almighty Gospel either. And like I said,....
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge No, they didn't. But I never said they did - I was responding to the "admission of fault and apology" bit - which categorically untrue. Saying that the US did do that *is* twisting reality. What I say isn't the gospel, but I provided sources to back up my points. I'm never said nor am saying that Iran is somehow better than the US or anything of the sort, although most of your counter points seem to try and establish that the US is better (which is not in dispute).
pubuman 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge ***which IS categorically*** , *** I never said nor am saying ***
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman the Russian pilot expressed no remorse whatsoever. At least the American captain had the integrity to do that. Discussions with you are like talking to a brick wall, and the same can be said after reading all the other anti-US discourse up here. You all listen to the same dribbel spouted off by your respective media in each country and label a nation of 310 million people as Texas idiots, yet you come over here and ABRACADABA, want to stay all of a sudden.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Wrong again. There are plenty of great things about the USA (I already said that) - but US foreign policy is rubbish - and any foreign policy is and should be criticized on its own merits. Saying some other nation's policy is worse is not a defense of bad policy. That seems to be the point that you are missing. This isn't simply America bashing, its a indication of how hypocritical American FP is. And that's not saying anything about anyone else's FP.
pubuman 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge When did I label all American's as Texas idiots? (In fact there are plenty of Texans who are far from being idiots) - when did I ever make general comments about the American people? All I have done through out is comment of US FP. But somehow you have taken that as an attack on the American public. How do you know what media I listen to?
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman I swear, some people are truly pathetic. And you, pubuman, you could at least respond to my content rather than selecting a segement of it and say I'm twisting reality.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@pubuman Stop using the US as a scapegoat and take on a more global perspective. If you're going to use the US as a counterexample, then you might as well address the doings of France, Great Britain, Venezuela and countless other nations who have committed atrocities that are mild in comparison to the Iranian incident. Truly disgusting.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge A scapegoat? When did France or GB or Venezuela ever shoot down a large civilian airliner in someone else's territorial waters and flying in someone else's airspace? Taking this further if you wish, when did France, GB, Ven overthrow democratically elected leaders in other countries and install puppet govts? When did they use drug money to fund para military groups fighting legitimate elected govts?
pubuman 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge The reason the US was used here was because they are the other example of at least a similar incident - there are no other comparable incidents ...
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman Your rants show that you are so hell-bent on tearing down the United States rather than taking a more moderate approach and realizing that foreign affairs are a messy business that have produced unspeakable hardship as well as a lot of good, nonetheless. Do you even read everything I post or do you just select a fragment and make some slap-happy comment?
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge If that were the case I would be criticizing the USA itself, and not its FP. I would be accusing its citizens of doing whatever (I'm not). I would calling into question US national affairs and FP (again, I'm not). Criticizing one's FP is not an attack on the country. I do read what you post, but you are taking it as an attack on the USA, when it isn't. Are you seriously going to argue that US FP has caused more good than harm?
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman And as for reality, if you've learned anything from life, it's that one man's reality is another's lie. Your stance is kind of simplistic to say the least.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge That's just non sensical - reality is an objective thing based on facts.
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman I'm sorry, but you're notion of objective reality is anything but objective. Behind everyone's statement proclaiming "reality" is a healthy dose of subjectivity. As far as GB, France or Venezuela are concerned, they may not have shot down civilian planes but that is not the only way to cause civilian casualties. Do you really think European colonialism was benevolent in scope? Do you also think it ended during the 1960s? If so, you definitely need a reality check.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@pubuman And in the end, the fact that Russia was logistically within its rights to shoot down the plane still doesn't justify the killing of innocent civilians. You go to Russia and see how humanely they treat political refugees and people of a different ethnic origin. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out which society is more just.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Again, this has nothing to do with the internal workings of Russia, I have not made comments about the internal workings of the USA ... You seem to really misunderstand this concept ...
pubuman 2 months ago
@pubuman Some of the most brutal dictatorships in Africa were brought about by European as well as American meddling into their own domestic affairs. I repeat, I'm not defending America's FP, as you call it, wholeheartedly. But you nonetheless single out my country as a scapegoat when other atrocities have been committed in the name of freedom or even "la mission civilisatrice." And this attitude has remained unchanged.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@pubuman Once again, I'm going to drive my point home in the hope that it'll get through that thick skull of yours, but I have my doubts: American foreign policy is far from perfect, but I don't think Russia, China or the EU could provide a better alternative. The EU has been trying to do the same thing for years and quite frankly, it's more of the same thing; each country looks out for its interests.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@pubuman Above all, rather than offer some type of condolences to the victims, you post some petty comment along the lines of "Well, at least Russia didn't do like the US and etc....." Go talk to some of the citizens of the former Soviet republics to find out more about "Russian glory", and then we'll talk. You may not have stated that Americans are all Texas idiots, but it always starts with foreign policy before people proceed to hammer out how stupid we are.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@pubuman And all of this comes from people who couldn't write their names forwards or backwards if their lives depended on it. Therefore, quit blamming the United States for every single problem in the world at every chance you get and tackle the "rubbish" of not only American foreign policy but also of other countries, including that of Iran. You're too one-sided.
jpwillia30ge 2 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Again you've confused the issue. The entire issue squarely dates back to the overthrow of the govt in 53. There was no anti - Americanism in Iran prior to that, and certainly there was no theocracy then. And there was no sponsorship of terrorist groups. Even Israel had the support of that govt (and the one just after the Shah, before AK). During the 25 years of the Shah's oppressive rule the religious fanatics were able to rally support under the guise of freedom...
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman BTW, you've entered the same text twice. Are you that vain that you have to see your senseless dribble over and over on the screen?
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Alright, lets do this point by point. I noticed you also entered the same text twice. Is it possible that was simply an error in youtube? or does what you say here apply to your comments as well? Now to move onto the other points ...
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman And the government of Iran could have ordered the militia to let the hostages go. And at least there's no ban on Muslim veils in the United States like in France. We don't impose our religion on Muslims, but when our women go to Iran, God forbid, they have to cover up. I once went to the airport in Philadelphia and no one said anything about a Muslim employee wearing her head scarf. Your anti-Americanism is despicable and distorts all sense of reality....
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge Ah! so ignorant! You do realize the hostages were taken by a "group" loyal to the AK, and the govt had no influence over them? You do realize the govt tried desperate maneuvers to free the hostages? You do realize that govt had no "Islamic" leanings right? Furthermore, you've labelled my criticism of certain actions by America as anti - American, but no where was I anti American. I think the American constitution and the idea of secularism is govt is one of the greatest ...
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman Ah! So full of yourself. The government couldn't control a group of people on its own territory? Well geez, that really reassures everyone about the future in Egypt and Tunisia. And since you like to cite reports so much, I'm sure you'd like to cite your claim that the government tried to free the hostages. And quite frankly, I don't care if you hate my country or not. Like I said, everyone saying, "Well, at least we didn't do like the Americans..."
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
Like I said, everyone saying, "Well, at least we didn't do like the Americans..." is a smokescreen to cover up one's shortcomings. I don't even know why you make such a comment on a forum that has nothing to do with the United States.
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
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@jpwillia30ge ... greatest achievements in human politics and rule. And I think the fact that Fred Phelps and his family can do what they do is the reason the world should look to the IDEAL of American politics and rule and say, those guys have it right. But ideology aside, I can criticize American international policy, but that doesn't make me anti - American. People like you use that phrase to paint all critics of the USA under the same brush, so you can live on in ignorance and hypocrisy.
pubuman 4 months ago
@pubuman And at least our government isn't going around saying certain countries should be wiped off the map. Moreover, your comparison to taking hostages in a bank doesn't apply. According to the Geneva Conventions, it's against international law to take diplomats hostage. Taking hostages in a US bank is a domestic issue. I think you need to get your facts straight. And although Iran overthrew the Shah, they could have at least ushered in a democratic government....
jpwillia30ge 4 months ago
@jpwillia30ge ... greatest achievements in human politics and rule. And I think the fact that Fred Phelps and his family can do what they do is the reason the world should look to the IDEAL of American politics and rule and say, those guys have it right. But ideology aside, I can criticize American international policy, but that doesn't make me anti - American. People like you use that phrase to paint all critics of the USA under the same brush, so you can live on in ignorance and hypocrisy.
pubuman 4 months ago