by the way, that definition is highly open to interpretation- you look up fluent you get eloquent, you look up eloquent you get fluent. its far from clear cut
lol no foreigner in the world? come off it- there are always people around who will learn a second language to a level above that of its average native speaker.
even if you are defining fluency as a scholarly art on the level of high literature (which would be silly) a few of those people surely exist too.
and btw, having a foreign accent has nada to do with eloquence! lol.
So there are no fluent people in any language anywhere? That definition is bull! The way most people think about fluency, is that you can understand anything you are thrown at during normal day. Maybe you miss couple of words but atleast most of it must be understood.
"I just learnt how to read and write with Katakana in one single day"(as someone stated below) this is one affirmation i will NEVER EVER believe!NEVER! I'm learning english for 19 years and i don't consider myself fluent.But i must say,the Oxford's deff about fluent is absurd!Like you said.90% of the romanians don't speak fluently their native language.I think that deffinition should not be considered,it's way to...i don't even know the word for it.Very good video,i'm impressed.
Here's a test read this book 日本語の作文技術 without the use of a dictionary or minimal use. A Book on Japanese grammar and writing techniques in Japanese aimed at Japanese people... If you can read that and comprehend everything then you're considered fluent..? If you can't even read the book title then don't bother.. xP
It also depends on the level of the speech. I know someone who spent a few months in Japan and he told me that when the Emperor gives a speech on the radio, most people don't catch a thing because of the level of language is not the same. Social hierarchy has an influence on how people speak to each others and the Emperor is at the top of the pyramid.
I think that was a fair handling of the question. I would take myself for example. I'm a native speaker of English and I feel that I'm reasonably proficient. That said, I haven't actively studied my entire life. I am trying to learn Japanese and I'm doing fairly well but I'm not on the same planet as fluent even by my definition... I'll have to complete my learning "experiment" before I can contribute to the content of the video : )
Good honest video, but maybe underestimating a lot of people's abilities. To get to a level where you can answer the telephone or order some food you it would take three years it is stated here. I just learnt how to read and write with Katakana in one single day. I think it helps if you already have experience of teaching yourself other languages.
i pretty much agree with you. i believe true fluency is being able to speak to a native of the language and having them not be able to detect that you are not a native speaker.. i believe proficiency can be achieved, that is, being able to hold intelligent conversations and understanding much of what is said to you in the language, but fluency is nearly impossible, unless you start as a child. and its definitely IMPOSSIBLE to become fluent without conversing regularly with native speakers.
I'm learning Japanese (beginner bordering on intermediate), and you are exactly right when you say it's like learning an instrument. "It all depends" really on how much time and effort you put into it and natural ability, of course. I have to find a native speaker and see if I can practice talking with him or her, fortunately there are web sites that put people learning languages together to practice talking. Looking forward to that! Awesome video, please keep making these. :)
I attend an american school, and I believe my English language skills are better then a lot of people I've met in the States and UK, even though my native language is Polish. I have friends from Korea and Vietnam that speak absolute perfect Polish (one of the hardest languages to learn, apparently) and if someone asked me if they were native I wouldn't doubt it.Saying things like "NO foreigner" are bit too harsh.I love your videos, but I notice that sometimes you sway too much to the absolute
You're analogy to learning a musical instrument is one I find very apt (and I use the same one), especially a language that has a very different phonology from yours, where the very shape of your mouth when forming sounds is very different from what one is used to.
I think if you're a foreign Japanologist, chances are you're gonna be fluent in Japanese. I can't say if my Japanology teachers are fluent, cos I'm not good enough to tell yet.
But they give talks on the subject of Japan in Japanese to other Japanese university professors, so I think that's somethign you do when you're fluent in the language.
I am a raw novice and never been to Japan. I always wondered why Japanese TV shows are so obsessed with sub-titles. Everything is always subbed to death!
I have come to suspect that it is because the Japanese themselves often struggle with the ambiguities of the language. Also, Jay Rubin (Gone Fishin), kinda hints that the culture (with its obsession with manners and non-verbal communication and cultural telepathy) has evolved in response to the unweidly nature of the Japanese Language.
One: My country is very small and some words change in different regions, is it the same in Japan? Two: I have been told that the way men and women speak is different. They told me of a japanese girl who showed her boyfriend from Thailand to speak japanese and when he went to Japan they said we spoke like a girl.
3-4 years of studying with native speakers in order to just be able to order food and communicate with people at the door and on the telephone? I don't think that is at all realistic. I'm not sure how many people you know that have taken that long to reach that level of speaking proficiency, but from my experience, most people (including myself) are able to learn languages much faster than that, especially in a native-speaking environment.
Are you an absolutist? under the definition of no mistakes under any circumstances noone in the whole world would be classified as fluent in any language in the whole world. Everyone makes mistakes in some fields, for examples writers are almost all scientifically illiterate as far as correct use of scientific definitions.
@TheJapanChannelDcom Yeah, but still I don't know if that is necessarily the best definition because it would exclude everyone. It would be better to not focus on the perfection aspect of the definition(which i don't think it implies to begin with though). I mean fluency is the lower rung of the society I think, because regular people do not speak at an academic level. Unless it is just a question of definition? Have you seen tokyozeplin's response to this? I think he makes some good points.
Eloquence is a subjective aesthetic. The correlation between "accuracy" and fluency is tenuous at best, even native English speakers make grammatical/pronunciation errors all the time. You can't expect to proper articulate a didactic grievance on a faulty premise can you!?
People can be fluent in Japanese, but its really f*!#ing hard. Too many damn letters.
Guess no one has tell you this but your english is very.. understandable lol... english is not my native language and I always understand perfectly. Doesn't happen the same with other videos or movies :)
@TheIthilStone +1 im mexican and i sometimes have a hard time understanding some accents like british slang but thanks for speaking clearly and this videos are helping me a lot on my way to japan =D
sorry i have to disagree when u said accurate is having "zero" mistakes. technically "accurate" is near perfect. being able to speak japanese"precisely" is more suited. i know the difference of these words because i study chemistry at university
No matter what you say, and no matter what language we are talking about: it comes all down to devotion and talent. And of course: what is your mother tongue and have you learned any other languages already? The more languages you´ve learned, the easier it gets to learn new languages, because you know how to learn a language! You know how YOUR BRAIN is workig on that. And is your mother tongue somehow related to the one you wanna learn? Like Spanish is easier for Italians than for the English.
Its the same with reading. One who has to check his vocabulary alll the time isn´t fluent, but even born Englishmen need to check some words from time to time (or else Webster wouldn´t sell a thing). Its not about how long does it take to speak on a level comparable to the one of a university professor, who then again might know to be elaborate on sociology but is lost when it comes to battling the HMRC (or IRS). So can U read & talk without hesitation and are U able 2 make yourself understood?
If this video is unpopular I guess its not because you say what people don´t wanna hear, but rather that you try to get around the question. What would people expect of somebody who is fluent in a language? Somebody who is able to communicate without having to use the English as last resort. His grammar mistakes shouldn´t get in the way of communication, which doesn´t mean there have to be none, and he doesn´t need to check his dictionary whilst speaking all the time.
I have a native Japanese teacher, and my friends always ask how i got one and it's really easy if you want a native Japanese teacher just call the Japanese embassy and ask them, that's what i did and they where very helpful, by giving me the number to a Japanese teachers society who then hooked me up with a private tutor. simple as that. (^_^)
Hey man, in my experience, age is the biggest factor. Kids get native fluent right away, teenagers will get fluent if they are here without trying, normal students who come here up to about 25 often manage to get pretty proficient, some with more effort than others. I find that people who start after 25, and not just for Japanese but in the reverse as well, people get to various levels of proficiency based on effort, but fluency is rare. I've met native-level fluent foreigners - they exist.
i think that has to be a stretch of the truth, no? kids are fluent right away? sure, whats right away? a couple of months is what most logical people would refer as 'right away' - certainly not years. ...moreover, you mean to tell me experienced (typical tertiary educated) adults in their late 20's early 30's that have a firm grasp on sentence structure and... (CONT>>>)
the ability to easily recognise and identify parts of speech would fill the lower end of the learning spectrum than learners who haven't graduated high school? (given both applicants are exposed to identical amount of learning hours) surely thats a farce - strictly speaking, the best performers in university courses (across the board) are MATURE AGE students. Language IS a matter of retention, it's no different. your experience (which is in essence = discriminating) is illogical.
@dentap777 lol. Kids GET fluent right away. In months - relatively speaking, I think it's obvious that's the scale. And having majored in two languages at university, I will vouch that mature students are often the most diligent and hardest working, but if we are talking about fluency, they never get there. I've lived and worked in environments with hundreds of people trying to become fluent in a foreign language, and the correlation between spoken fluency and age is absolutely clear in my exp.
@dentap777 You should listen to the guy in the video - I'm not as pessimistic as him, I think fluency is achievable, but just saying that age is probably the most important factor - much more important even than time spent studying, and a gazillion times more important than grades in language as a school subject.
I like the car videos. Not only do I get to listen to the subject that you're talking about, but I get to see some lovely scenery and buildings that we wouldn't get to see if you shot the video in a stationary place! :)
Whether it's perfect English, Hochdeutsch, or flawless Japanese - I bet, it sounds foreign to people, because nobody speaks it but the accent-conscious foreigners, IQ-stuffed nerds, TV-announcers, and mp3 book readers.
I understand what you say, I've been studying Japanese for a couple of months and i'm not that good and I only can say basic things like how to describe myself and other people, ask for things, etc. and I agree you should try to be taught be a native Japanese speaker, I myself use a program that has a native Japanese speaker record every word or phrase.
And you didn't even go into reading/writing Japanese. I would probably save the status of 'fluent' for the criteria you said, and also can get on the train going to the middle of nowhere in Japan and tell the difference between two sound-alike places with similar kanji in their names. I would think most foreigners, unless they have very unusual circumstances, don't have the same proficiency as Japanese people that have had kanji drilled into their heads every day at school for 10+ years.
My definition of spoken fluency is to be able to express what I want to express at an appropriate level of formality and gentleness as the situation demands it. Speed is irrelevant as even native speakers will take long pauses to think before they speak. Proper sentence structure is not always necessary to convey what you want, but as formality increases becomes much more important. Gentleness is very important in Japanese at least... but all of the above takes time and usage to learn.
@DemonicDerek78 As for written fluency, well in romance languages if you can read you usually can remember all the letters pretty easily. As formality increases kanji becomes more necessary, and grammar is important as formality increases as well. However, if you can learn a word's meaning before learning the kanji, by all means do so as it is much more efficient to learn how to write what you speak rather than learn to speak what you write.
@DemonicDerek78 I deleted the sentence part "However, since I'm talking about Japanese... (as formality increases)" while re-reading and that made it hard to understand xD...
My family speaks a very high level of English to the point that we can make our meanings opaque to others by using long words as short-hand. Thus, one would need a doctorate or to have been born into academic society to understand it. That would be your Japanese elegance. Fluency is to make oneself easily understood. Nativism is to sound like a native. Not that all natives speak with fluency or elegance.
sorry to say but your dictionary must be out of date...i have the new 2010 full version and they have amended it - it now read: flu.ent >adj. (of a person) able to express oneself easily and articulately. (of a person) able to speak or write a particular foreign language easily and accurately. (of a foreign language) spoken accurately and with facility.
Your idea or fluent is harsh and more or less means no one is fluent...fluent to me is someone us understands and is understood to a high level
Basically, as you said - a lot of native speakers in English can't speak their language accurately and articulately 100% of the time, but they are still fluent.
But then as soon as you talk about Japanese, if you can't speak it accurately and articulately 100% of the time, you aren't fluent. And I'm sure native speakers even make mistakes sometimes.
So, yeah. You make it seem like only a few (even natives) are actually fluent.
but in fact who cares about fluency when you can communicate well and express yourself. Natives will mostly infer what you mean even if you make mistakes. I liked the end of the video, where you do admit this.
I have so many English courses in highschool, I wish they were replaced with Japanese! =( Lol I would love to have Japanese classes anywhere but when I ask somebody they have never heard of any where I live, I have to learn on my own and with my friends who also want to learn, I wish I had a teacher. XD There is a Japanese exchange student at my best friends high school and she can help us with our Japanese too! ^__^ Gambatte! Lol
In Japan I came across an American hotel manager. He greated customers one after another, solved problems, made phone calls, spoke easily with everyone he came across. I asked my Japanese companion 'how is his Japanese', he replied instantly 'terrible'. Later he explained that it was terrible because he tended to use the wrong words for the wrong people. For example he would address the customer with the same language as the bell hop, etc.. So in Japan there is a lot more then just words/grammer
You're really off base with this topic and you spent 6 minutes beating around the bush. You took that definition and interpreted it completely literally. By your logic no one on the planet can speak a language fluently, because everyone has probably made a mistake while they were talking at least once in their life, including their toddler years.
I think someone is fluent when they write, read and communicate with others using the language. If we look at being fluent as being 100% accurate and articulate then no one would ever be "fluent" because no one is perfect. Even geniuses can make mistakes. So if we look at it from your point of view even the native speakers won't be "fluent". NO ONE WOULD... what is the point in having the word "fluent" in the dictionary if no one can achieve it!!!
I think it takes about 10 years. It's been 10 years since i started to have an interest in Japan and japanese but I have only gone to COURSES in japanese for a year now. It's a loooong way to go. And people who say it can take 1 or 2 years... that's just crazy, I dont trust them. They know a lot purhaps, but they dont "know japanese".
But I thought you were gonna say you are fluent and/or very good at japanese.
@MurdocLC ...my advice is not to go on any course...normally your based in a city...if you want to do it quickly i would say you can become fluent in 2 years to a high standard but you need to be with a host family... live in the countryside in the north where there is less foreigners...i dont study but through just talking i have learnt so much...so with more studying i could advance so much quicker...
@JeremyScottThompson I have NOTHING else but the course. So I take what I can and I love it. I'm not rich, I dont like in a big city and I cant live in Japan now omg! Maybe when im like... 65 years old...
'fluency' does not mean 'nativity' that's why I don't quite understand why you were talking about non-natives speaking Japanese, and native Japanese who can say if the person speaking is a native or not.
"Accurately and articulately", if not with unreasonable expectation, is more realistic.
I consider to be fluent anyone who can speak and write as well (accurately and articulately, but perhaps with an accent) as most people who have lived in the culture their whole lives. My previous supervisor and my current boss are both Indian. They speak as well as most college-educated Americans, but they make mistakes I don't and they have a non-interfering accent. I still consider them fluent.
@annagulaev (continued) My Japanese teacher is usually easily understood and communicates well, and he probably knows more about the English language than most Americans, but he occasionally misunderstands things that nobody else in the room misunderstands, and occasionally his accent makes people misunderstand things he says (e.g. work vs walk). While I think he knows the language more than most natives, technically, and he communicates really well, I don't consider him fluent.
At 3.29, with respect, I think you are setting the bar too high! Concise Oxford defines "fluent" as "flowing naturally and readily", which is how I've always viewed fluency. Almost everyone becomes fluent in their native language, to greater or lesser degrees of finesse. And, with practise, non-native speakers can achieve this too. I have a Japanese friend who, when speaking to me over the phone, is indistinguishable from native Oz speakers. It can be done! With practise, I agree!!!
@KyoshioNiwa I totally agree! With this point of view, nobody is ever fluently in his own native language! 'Cause when I have to look something up in the code of law, I certainly need a synonym dictionary!!!
In my opinion "fluently" means to talk straigth, without the need of circumscribing something !
But it is all a matter of how somebody is interpreting "fluently" :)
I must ask then, how do all those people who immigrate to Japan e.g. from Korea or China become fluent then? The school I went to, the students were fluent within a short amount of time and participating in normal classes with and their grades on average were on par with their other classmates
I don't take EVERYTHING so literally.. but I get asked questions about the "fluent" thing every day and I guess I have become a bit pedantic about the semantics of that particularly word..
If we change the meaning of the word to "fluid" and ONLY "fluid" my opinion would be a little different ^_^
In my opinion, you're over-thinking this. When people ask if you're fluent, I don't think they're meaning to ask if you are so well-versed that even a native wouldn't be able to tell that Japanese wasn't your native language. I'm thinking that most people simply wish to know if you're capable of having a quick paced conversation with someone without having to stop to think about what you want to say, or taking an extended period of time to process what the opposite speaker said.
Hmm Your point is very good and true BUT lol if we went off the dictioanries definiton for everything itd put exceptions to alot of things we say colloquially. Being 'fluent' said coloquially, to most people means a very high standard of the language. Two of my japanese friends say they are 'fluent' in english and I agree that they are
I see your point but there are more factors involved. I've noticed that people who don't speak English are generally signicantly more fluent that most English speakers in Japan. I have one Japanese-Brazilian friend who never spoke a word of Japanese before coming to Japan, but everyone I introduce him to thinks he was born and raised in Japan. They are always shocked when he tells them he first came to Japan as an adult. I used to have a girlfriend from Korea who spoke just as well.
Maybe this helps to give another perspective, im studying japanese language (and culture) on a university. The bachelor is 3 years, and when im done, I'll probably be able to pass JLPT 2(that's how it's called, right?). After that, to get better, you pretty much have to go to Japan.
I Personally find that most people that learned English as a second language tend to speak better than people that grew up here [America], Because they learned "Textbook" and don't have a dialect to it. They might say "Do Any of you have a pen?" Where people that grew up in certain parts might say "Do any yall got a pen?"
I think it really comes down to how you define 'fluent'. My Chinese friend speaks really good English & can get through most situations perfectly. You can tell that she isn't a native speaker but I would consider her fluent. Her grammar and written comprehension is better than some native speakers that I know! If I was learning a foreign language that's what I would strive for. 'Mastery' in a foreign language is a whole other ball game & I think could only really be achieved by a linguist.
That's sort of prejudiced. If you were non-Japanese yet born in Japan (by foreign parents) and brought up in Japan I think you would most likely speak Japanese fluently. If someone looks at you on the screen it doesn't entitle them to make the decision that you're not fluent.
One of my foreign language professors said fluency meant speaking the language in a "fluid or flowing" manner. For example, if you are able to speak and answer questions in complete sentences without pause you are fluent. While this is different than the dictionary definition, I think that is what most people are asking you when they want to know if you are fluent.
There are people who "speak" well, but have no grasp of the culture. Then there are people with noticeable foreign accents, yet by their reply we recognize their full grasp of the subtle shades of words, and nuance of expression and gesture. For me, though it would be nice to speak fluently, without sounding "foreign", I feel the most important thing is to be able to recognize the "connotation" of a culture within a language, and become "fluent" in expressing thoughts within that interpretation.
How about we look at the Japanese definition of fluent based on the kanji, since that's the language mainly in question: 流暢 (ryuuchou). 流 means "flowing" as in a river and 暢 means "stretched out, comfortable." Basically, someone is fluent according to Japanese if they can speak without pausing and aren't awkward while doing it. Based on this definition, I'd say most people who can function and enjoy daily life alone in a foreign country w/o having to rely on a bilingual friend are fluent.
i speak native english, i was raised in the good ole u.s. of a and if you were to ask me or any native english speaker a technical or scientific or medical term then i and every other native english speaker will be dumbfounded. from what ive been told it takes about 2 years of HARD work or 3-4 years of half-assing it to speak a native or near native level. i think its called the 10,000 hour rule. this is true when learning a language or learning how to play the piano, golf or any talent or skill
I think its ridiculous to assert that fluency means making ZERO MISTAKES. Im a native english speaker, Im fluent, and I make mistakes ALL the time. I think what your talking about as far as not being able to talk about economics or politics etc. is less to do with language inability and more to do with a fundamental ignorance of the subject at hand. There are plenty of Japanese,Im sure who wouldn't be able to speak compatently on those kinds of subjects.
Also natural spoken language is brutal in it's speed and the ways it breaks the rules. Thinking about spoken english between two friends, there's slang, words are run together or cut short, and things are barely pronounced. Even amongst native spekers, if you're with a friend and a stranger, you can pretty easily speak quickly and choose unusual words such that your friend understands perfectly clear but the other guy has no idea what you just said.
Your point of being able to converse with lawyers and doctors and understanding their professional terms kind of makes sense. There is a certain amount of understanding when you speak to a lawyer and doctor, but it is nowhere near perfect, even in your first language. For example, there are many people who don't understand the Latin words that are common in English, but it doesn't mean that they're not fluent.
I think it's true what you say about not being able to match native Japanese speakers in language proficiency. But, I think that most people would be satisfied knowing the language well enough to function in day to day life. Personally that'd be fine for me. Great video though, it's nice to here someone being honest about this!
I see a serious bias in your argument, when you say a fluent speaker must be "accurate and articulate". Most people grow up and speak like the people they learned to speak from. An english professor from an Ivy League university might not think that a hoodlum from a low-class ghetto in New York speaks very "eloquently" yet that person is perfectly versed in his sect of english and much better than the professor at communicating with people in his neighborhood.
Also, what if you were born in Taiwan, lived there to middle school, and moved to Japan? Looking back, my English did not drastically improve from middle school. Then, what if you moved to Japan in Middle/High school? You still grow up in this Japanese environment and you don't miss out on much. (especially cause of the kanji characters)
Based on your definition, even native people do not speak their language fluently. If I've been born in the States, my English level will not be as good as that professor who's teaching over at Harvard. What if I've majored in a science rather than literature arts. Am I considered not fluent in English? If so, 95% of all native speakers of any country are not fluent. If you have to have a PHD to be fluent, your argument is unjustly one-sided.
I like that you're honest about it. Sure, people might want to hear that if they study twice a week for just one year they'll be able to speak Japanese, but unfortunately that's just not going to happen and people need to understand that.
I personally don't take the meaning of 'fluent' to that extreme. I think, like you said, if you can carry on a decent conversation with a stranger, or someone on the phone, that'd be enough for me to deem fluent. Perhaps at a high school level I suppose?
I have to agree with the video uploader's definition of fluent. Most people will never be fluent in any language (Local or foreigner) by that definition. My definition of fluent is being able to hold a casual conversation and effectively convey your message and understand most of the other person message.
I just read your response to a comment, "it is virtually impossible for foreigners to get jobs drawing manga in Japan..."
What? You are crossing lines, sir. If I could, I would have to give you a double-thumbs down! I may have to carry this thumb over into the next video. I will have to see if that one insults me and it too is negative.
And "accurate" as zero mistakes is too much; rather, how about, "showing a negligible or permissible deviation from a standard."
No one is perfect...I don't care how many Japanese boast of their abilities. And they do boast but they do it by subterfuge: They denigrate small errancies. And by "they," I am referring to all the Japanese that I have known, which are only those who live in Japan and were born in Japan.
Sensei told me that the 6,000 or more kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2 percent or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
Sensei told me that the 6,000+ kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2 percent or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
Sensei told me that the 6,000+ kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2% or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
Sensei told me that the 6,000+ kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2% or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
Languages are so vast and complex that no person can ever hope to find unmitigated perfection in any language... so don't worry about it and enjoy the constant state of discovery we are all in. (^_^) Language if fun!!
I'd be happy to speak it to a point where it's as if they're talking to any one they know. I could live without the very "proper" talk, or "formal" speaking. Just a bit of that would be fine.
Well I'm bilingual in English and Spanish they are both my 1st languages. I wouldn't say I'm fluent according to the real definition of "fluent" because I still make mistake plus I use conjunctions and stuff like that, that really isn't proper english, plus there are many words in both english and spanish I still don't know. To me fluent means though like ... a person who can speak more than conversational in a language. Like get by on a day to day basis like if it was your native language.
I must study more. I do think that regardless of any language a minimum of at least 10 years is needed to become decent in a language. I agree with you on this video keep them up!.
Let's keep practising! - Ah, I see what you did there... ^_^
I agree with you - almost nobody will ever be fluent in a foreign language - especially one so complex as japanese!
But we don't need to, do we? As long as we can communicate with others in a foreign language and keep on learning to do so better every day - everything's fine! =)
I don't know about others, but I learn other languages, so that I can understand others and am able to talk to them - it's ok for me, if I make mistakes... ^_^
@Jemima1377 "I agree with you - almost nobody will ever be fluent in a foreign language" utterly utterly false really. I know tons of people who speak a second language fluently, tiny tiny steps away from a native level. I myself speak two languages fluent (English being my second language).
by the way, that definition is highly open to interpretation- you look up fluent you get eloquent, you look up eloquent you get fluent. its far from clear cut
karmaburna 2 weeks ago
lol no foreigner in the world? come off it- there are always people around who will learn a second language to a level above that of its average native speaker.
even if you are defining fluency as a scholarly art on the level of high literature (which would be silly) a few of those people surely exist too.
and btw, having a foreign accent has nada to do with eloquence! lol.
karmaburna 2 weeks ago
So there are no fluent people in any language anywhere? That definition is bull! The way most people think about fluency, is that you can understand anything you are thrown at during normal day. Maybe you miss couple of words but atleast most of it must be understood.
Nikotiini69 2 weeks ago
"I just learnt how to read and write with Katakana in one single day"(as someone stated below) this is one affirmation i will NEVER EVER believe!NEVER! I'm learning english for 19 years and i don't consider myself fluent.But i must say,the Oxford's deff about fluent is absurd!Like you said.90% of the romanians don't speak fluently their native language.I think that deffinition should not be considered,it's way to...i don't even know the word for it.Very good video,i'm impressed.
Kazu130212 3 weeks ago
Zero mistakes means I will never be fluent neither in English, nor in Japanese...
SteelyGlow 1 month ago
Here's a test read this book 日本語の作文技術 without the use of a dictionary or minimal use. A Book on Japanese grammar and writing techniques in Japanese aimed at Japanese people... If you can read that and comprehend everything then you're considered fluent..? If you can't even read the book title then don't bother.. xP
hiphoplivs 2 months ago
It also depends on the level of the speech. I know someone who spent a few months in Japan and he told me that when the Emperor gives a speech on the radio, most people don't catch a thing because of the level of language is not the same. Social hierarchy has an influence on how people speak to each others and the Emperor is at the top of the pyramid.
frepi 2 months ago
I guess the toughest test would be to read and understand poetry and humour.
frepi 2 months ago
i think pronunciation is the most important for any language.
EWGFus3r 4 months ago
I think that was a fair handling of the question. I would take myself for example. I'm a native speaker of English and I feel that I'm reasonably proficient. That said, I haven't actively studied my entire life. I am trying to learn Japanese and I'm doing fairly well but I'm not on the same planet as fluent even by my definition... I'll have to complete my learning "experiment" before I can contribute to the content of the video : )
FermiAnyon 6 months ago
Good honest video, but maybe underestimating a lot of people's abilities. To get to a level where you can answer the telephone or order some food you it would take three years it is stated here. I just learnt how to read and write with Katakana in one single day. I think it helps if you already have experience of teaching yourself other languages.
arbide3 6 months ago
i pretty much agree with you. i believe true fluency is being able to speak to a native of the language and having them not be able to detect that you are not a native speaker.. i believe proficiency can be achieved, that is, being able to hold intelligent conversations and understanding much of what is said to you in the language, but fluency is nearly impossible, unless you start as a child. and its definitely IMPOSSIBLE to become fluent without conversing regularly with native speakers.
ashtraynaut 8 months ago
Fluent = Easily carry a conversation on a broad variety of subjects in the said language, while being clearly understood at all times.
mrdkaff 9 months ago
I'm learning Japanese (beginner bordering on intermediate), and you are exactly right when you say it's like learning an instrument. "It all depends" really on how much time and effort you put into it and natural ability, of course. I have to find a native speaker and see if I can practice talking with him or her, fortunately there are web sites that put people learning languages together to practice talking. Looking forward to that! Awesome video, please keep making these. :)
SpookMrsSpooky 9 months ago
I attend an american school, and I believe my English language skills are better then a lot of people I've met in the States and UK, even though my native language is Polish. I have friends from Korea and Vietnam that speak absolute perfect Polish (one of the hardest languages to learn, apparently) and if someone asked me if they were native I wouldn't doubt it.Saying things like "NO foreigner" are bit too harsh.I love your videos, but I notice that sometimes you sway too much to the absolute
HaoSer12 10 months ago
You're analogy to learning a musical instrument is one I find very apt (and I use the same one), especially a language that has a very different phonology from yours, where the very shape of your mouth when forming sounds is very different from what one is used to.
TheAle89515 10 months ago
I saw the grey sky and thought your in the uk, then I see some signs in Japanese...
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Justiricasey2 11 months ago
I can speak Japanese fluently and elliquantly(or however you spell that).:)
LovelyBones156 11 months ago
i like how u make videos whilst doing something else, like with the driving in this one. cool style :)
wilric01 1 year ago
I think if you're a foreign Japanologist, chances are you're gonna be fluent in Japanese. I can't say if my Japanology teachers are fluent, cos I'm not good enough to tell yet.
But they give talks on the subject of Japan in Japanese to other Japanese university professors, so I think that's somethign you do when you're fluent in the language.
DontTouchMyVicodin 1 year ago
@citrinemerry
Thanks for watching!
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago
I would love to practice with you~ I avidly study Japanese and hope someday to speak Japanese very well. =)
MagegirlNino 1 year ago
I am a raw novice and never been to Japan. I always wondered why Japanese TV shows are so obsessed with sub-titles. Everything is always subbed to death!
I have come to suspect that it is because the Japanese themselves often struggle with the ambiguities of the language. Also, Jay Rubin (Gone Fishin), kinda hints that the culture (with its obsession with manners and non-verbal communication and cultural telepathy) has evolved in response to the unweidly nature of the Japanese Language.
rarex50484 1 year ago
One: My country is very small and some words change in different regions, is it the same in Japan? Two: I have been told that the way men and women speak is different. They told me of a japanese girl who showed her boyfriend from Thailand to speak japanese and when he went to Japan they said we spoke like a girl.
tytania3545 1 year ago 3
@tytania3545
Yes.
Yes.
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago
I've had 5 years practice watching japanese porn, if you need dirty talk translated I'm your guy.
PungPhooie 1 year ago
I have to say, you kind of dodged the question with that strict definition of fluent that I doubt anyone would follow...
PenguinWalrus0 1 year ago
3-4 years of studying with native speakers in order to just be able to order food and communicate with people at the door and on the telephone? I don't think that is at all realistic. I'm not sure how many people you know that have taken that long to reach that level of speaking proficiency, but from my experience, most people (including myself) are able to learn languages much faster than that, especially in a native-speaking environment.
savetherocks 1 year ago
Are you an absolutist? under the definition of no mistakes under any circumstances noone in the whole world would be classified as fluent in any language in the whole world. Everyone makes mistakes in some fields, for examples writers are almost all scientifically illiterate as far as correct use of scientific definitions.
0hmyy0utubeusername 1 year ago
@0hmyy0utubeusername
Just referirng to the Oxford dictionary definition.
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago 8
@TheJapanChannelDcom Yeah, but still I don't know if that is necessarily the best definition because it would exclude everyone. It would be better to not focus on the perfection aspect of the definition(which i don't think it implies to begin with though). I mean fluency is the lower rung of the society I think, because regular people do not speak at an academic level. Unless it is just a question of definition? Have you seen tokyozeplin's response to this? I think he makes some good points.
0hmyy0utubeusername 1 year ago
I like this video. I've been asked the same thing alot before. I now can explain it better
weelay 1 year ago
I like this answer. You explained it well. I've been asked the something a lot before
weelay 1 year ago
In a short explanation of this video"learn enough to get by".
mybigwang1 1 year ago
thumbs up just for mentioning joe satriani!
mice256 1 year ago
Wow, I guess only a small percentage of ppl on planet Earth are "fluent". lol. I still like your vids though. No harm.
jazdj04 1 year ago
sometimes your thick Australian accent comes out hahah awesome!
Quy4life 1 year ago
I say!
Eloquence is a subjective aesthetic. The correlation between "accuracy" and fluency is tenuous at best, even native English speakers make grammatical/pronunciation errors all the time. You can't expect to proper articulate a didactic grievance on a faulty premise can you!?
People can be fluent in Japanese, but its really f*!#ing hard. Too many damn letters.
kromo770 1 year ago
where were you going when you drove ?
you drive a lot while making vids :)
FatemahAliZainab 1 year ago
Guess no one has tell you this but your english is very.. understandable lol... english is not my native language and I always understand perfectly. Doesn't happen the same with other videos or movies :)
TheIthilStone 1 year ago
@TheIthilStone
Thank you.
Both my parents are teachers and they were strict about speaking clearly...
Bless them ^_^
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago 3
@TheIthilStone +1 im mexican and i sometimes have a hard time understanding some accents like british slang but thanks for speaking clearly and this videos are helping me a lot on my way to japan =D
zilot 1 year ago
this is not with the subject but is that a new car?
blead40 1 year ago
AGREE 100%..I speak italian, spanish, english and bit of portuguese, all depends on the meaning for you of "fluent"
soonaussiefull 1 year ago
I'm glad you are very honest in your videos, thanks for another teaching vid.
Best regards :)
OreWaSulekDesu 1 year ago
sorry i have to disagree when u said accurate is having "zero" mistakes. technically "accurate" is near perfect. being able to speak japanese"precisely" is more suited. i know the difference of these words because i study chemistry at university
1505870394 1 year ago
No matter what you say, and no matter what language we are talking about: it comes all down to devotion and talent. And of course: what is your mother tongue and have you learned any other languages already? The more languages you´ve learned, the easier it gets to learn new languages, because you know how to learn a language! You know how YOUR BRAIN is workig on that. And is your mother tongue somehow related to the one you wanna learn? Like Spanish is easier for Italians than for the English.
Leecher4711 1 year ago 4
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Leecher4711 1 year ago
Its the same with reading. One who has to check his vocabulary alll the time isn´t fluent, but even born Englishmen need to check some words from time to time (or else Webster wouldn´t sell a thing). Its not about how long does it take to speak on a level comparable to the one of a university professor, who then again might know to be elaborate on sociology but is lost when it comes to battling the HMRC (or IRS). So can U read & talk without hesitation and are U able 2 make yourself understood?
Leecher4711 1 year ago
If this video is unpopular I guess its not because you say what people don´t wanna hear, but rather that you try to get around the question. What would people expect of somebody who is fluent in a language? Somebody who is able to communicate without having to use the English as last resort. His grammar mistakes shouldn´t get in the way of communication, which doesn´t mean there have to be none, and he doesn´t need to check his dictionary whilst speaking all the time.
Leecher4711 1 year ago
I have a native Japanese teacher, and my friends always ask how i got one and it's really easy if you want a native Japanese teacher just call the Japanese embassy and ask them, that's what i did and they where very helpful, by giving me the number to a Japanese teachers society who then hooked me up with a private tutor. simple as that. (^_^)
Nora3AT 1 year ago
Hey man, in my experience, age is the biggest factor. Kids get native fluent right away, teenagers will get fluent if they are here without trying, normal students who come here up to about 25 often manage to get pretty proficient, some with more effort than others. I find that people who start after 25, and not just for Japanese but in the reverse as well, people get to various levels of proficiency based on effort, but fluency is rare. I've met native-level fluent foreigners - they exist.
Hikosaemon 1 year ago
@Hikosaemon
i think that has to be a stretch of the truth, no? kids are fluent right away? sure, whats right away? a couple of months is what most logical people would refer as 'right away' - certainly not years. ...moreover, you mean to tell me experienced (typical tertiary educated) adults in their late 20's early 30's that have a firm grasp on sentence structure and... (CONT>>>)
dentap777 1 year ago
@Hikosaemon
the ability to easily recognise and identify parts of speech would fill the lower end of the learning spectrum than learners who haven't graduated high school? (given both applicants are exposed to identical amount of learning hours) surely thats a farce - strictly speaking, the best performers in university courses (across the board) are MATURE AGE students. Language IS a matter of retention, it's no different. your experience (which is in essence = discriminating) is illogical.
dentap777 1 year ago
@dentap777 lol. Kids GET fluent right away. In months - relatively speaking, I think it's obvious that's the scale. And having majored in two languages at university, I will vouch that mature students are often the most diligent and hardest working, but if we are talking about fluency, they never get there. I've lived and worked in environments with hundreds of people trying to become fluent in a foreign language, and the correlation between spoken fluency and age is absolutely clear in my exp.
Hikosaemon 1 year ago
Comment removed
Hikosaemon 1 year ago
@dentap777 You should listen to the guy in the video - I'm not as pessimistic as him, I think fluency is achievable, but just saying that age is probably the most important factor - much more important even than time spent studying, and a gazillion times more important than grades in language as a school subject.
Hikosaemon 1 year ago
Comment removed
Hikosaemon 1 year ago
Good thing about life is you never stop learning, or there is always something else to learn.
Nemesis093781 1 year ago
I know that this has nothing to do with the subject but, when you gonna make a video in other place that isn't your car?
Koifishman 1 year ago
I know that this has nothing to do with the subject but, when you gonna make a video in other place that isn't your car?
Koifishman 1 year ago
@Koifishman
I made over 400 that are not in my car.
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago 27
@TheJapanChannelDcom
Yeah I know, but something in the outdoors would be nice too.
Koifishman 1 year ago
@Koifishman
There are lots of my videos outside.
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago 11
@TheJapanChannelDcom
I like the car videos. Not only do I get to listen to the subject that you're talking about, but I get to see some lovely scenery and buildings that we wouldn't get to see if you shot the video in a stationary place! :)
laura121684 1 year ago
I know that this has nothing to do with the subject but, when you gonna make a video in other place that isn't your car?
Koifishman 1 year ago
Whether it's perfect English, Hochdeutsch, or flawless Japanese - I bet, it sounds foreign to people, because nobody speaks it but the accent-conscious foreigners, IQ-stuffed nerds, TV-announcers, and mp3 book readers.
istarninwa 1 year ago
I understand what you say, I've been studying Japanese for a couple of months and i'm not that good and I only can say basic things like how to describe myself and other people, ask for things, etc. and I agree you should try to be taught be a native Japanese speaker, I myself use a program that has a native Japanese speaker record every word or phrase.
peasent1287 1 year ago
And you didn't even go into reading/writing Japanese. I would probably save the status of 'fluent' for the criteria you said, and also can get on the train going to the middle of nowhere in Japan and tell the difference between two sound-alike places with similar kanji in their names. I would think most foreigners, unless they have very unusual circumstances, don't have the same proficiency as Japanese people that have had kanji drilled into their heads every day at school for 10+ years.
Odelle5 1 year ago
My definition of spoken fluency is to be able to express what I want to express at an appropriate level of formality and gentleness as the situation demands it. Speed is irrelevant as even native speakers will take long pauses to think before they speak. Proper sentence structure is not always necessary to convey what you want, but as formality increases becomes much more important. Gentleness is very important in Japanese at least... but all of the above takes time and usage to learn.
DemonicDerek78 1 year ago
@DemonicDerek78 As for written fluency, well in romance languages if you can read you usually can remember all the letters pretty easily. As formality increases kanji becomes more necessary, and grammar is important as formality increases as well. However, if you can learn a word's meaning before learning the kanji, by all means do so as it is much more efficient to learn how to write what you speak rather than learn to speak what you write.
DemonicDerek78 1 year ago
@DemonicDerek78 I deleted the sentence part "However, since I'm talking about Japanese... (as formality increases)" while re-reading and that made it hard to understand xD...
DemonicDerek78 1 year ago
My family speaks a very high level of English to the point that we can make our meanings opaque to others by using long words as short-hand. Thus, one would need a doctorate or to have been born into academic society to understand it. That would be your Japanese elegance. Fluency is to make oneself easily understood. Nativism is to sound like a native. Not that all natives speak with fluency or elegance.
nokomarie1963 1 year ago
how can you even compare marry had a little lamb to joe satriani...
so yeah joe satriani all the way =P
maxzor1 1 year ago
sorry to say but your dictionary must be out of date...i have the new 2010 full version and they have amended it - it now read: flu.ent >adj. (of a person) able to express oneself easily and articulately. (of a person) able to speak or write a particular foreign language easily and accurately. (of a foreign language) spoken accurately and with facility.
Your idea or fluent is harsh and more or less means no one is fluent...fluent to me is someone us understands and is understood to a high level
JeremyScottThompson 1 year ago
"Accurate" is a relative term. It does not necessarily mean zero mistakes under any circumstances.
taylornate2 1 year ago
I feel like you contradicted yourself there.
Basically, as you said - a lot of native speakers in English can't speak their language accurately and articulately 100% of the time, but they are still fluent.
But then as soon as you talk about Japanese, if you can't speak it accurately and articulately 100% of the time, you aren't fluent. And I'm sure native speakers even make mistakes sometimes.
So, yeah. You make it seem like only a few (even natives) are actually fluent.
Just my opinion. ^_^
FairytalesExist 1 year ago
but in fact who cares about fluency when you can communicate well and express yourself. Natives will mostly infer what you mean even if you make mistakes. I liked the end of the video, where you do admit this.
egoimperator 1 year ago
man i thought fluent means you can speak the language smoothly not like the quality
hidarikiki07 1 year ago
Thank you for this video, I was waiting for something like it for a while! Thanks so much! ^^
How long have you been living in Japan, by the way?
YukoEXE 1 year ago
I have so many English courses in highschool, I wish they were replaced with Japanese! =( Lol I would love to have Japanese classes anywhere but when I ask somebody they have never heard of any where I live, I have to learn on my own and with my friends who also want to learn, I wish I had a teacher. XD There is a Japanese exchange student at my best friends high school and she can help us with our Japanese too! ^__^ Gambatte! Lol
TiannaLoveNyappy 1 year ago
In Japan I came across an American hotel manager. He greated customers one after another, solved problems, made phone calls, spoke easily with everyone he came across. I asked my Japanese companion 'how is his Japanese', he replied instantly 'terrible'. Later he explained that it was terrible because he tended to use the wrong words for the wrong people. For example he would address the customer with the same language as the bell hop, etc.. So in Japan there is a lot more then just words/grammer
KarlHeinzofWpg 1 year ago
You're really off base with this topic and you spent 6 minutes beating around the bush. You took that definition and interpreted it completely literally. By your logic no one on the planet can speak a language fluently, because everyone has probably made a mistake while they were talking at least once in their life, including their toddler years.
IPlayInBeastMode 1 year ago
I think someone is fluent when they write, read and communicate with others using the language. If we look at being fluent as being 100% accurate and articulate then no one would ever be "fluent" because no one is perfect. Even geniuses can make mistakes. So if we look at it from your point of view even the native speakers won't be "fluent". NO ONE WOULD... what is the point in having the word "fluent" in the dictionary if no one can achieve it!!!
SpyMisa 1 year ago
@TheJapanChannelDcom byt the way do you have a new car? :)
Flankymanga 1 year ago
@Flankymanga nah hes had that nissan micra for a while, lol i only know as i worked as a nissan technician and know a micra dash when i see one!
irit8r 1 year ago
I think it takes about 10 years. It's been 10 years since i started to have an interest in Japan and japanese but I have only gone to COURSES in japanese for a year now. It's a loooong way to go. And people who say it can take 1 or 2 years... that's just crazy, I dont trust them. They know a lot purhaps, but they dont "know japanese".
But I thought you were gonna say you are fluent and/or very good at japanese.
MurdocLC 1 year ago 6
@MurdocLC
No, I am not very good - still learning ^_^
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago
@TheJapanChannelDcom Eeeh!? Really. Omoshiroi.
MurdocLC 1 year ago
@TheJapanChannelDcom
By answering like that, I think you're already quite well adapted to Japanese culture でしょう？ ＾＾
FunnyAngel 1 year ago
@MurdocLC theres an american guy that does comedy in japan japan and he became fluent in 3 years with a lot of effort and thats just it
its the effort you put in to the learning that makes the difference and also living here in japan makes a huge difference
munkogasuski 1 year ago
@MurdocLC ...my advice is not to go on any course...normally your based in a city...if you want to do it quickly i would say you can become fluent in 2 years to a high standard but you need to be with a host family... live in the countryside in the north where there is less foreigners...i dont study but through just talking i have learnt so much...so with more studying i could advance so much quicker...
JeremyScottThompson 1 year ago
@JeremyScottThompson I have NOTHING else but the course. So I take what I can and I love it. I'm not rich, I dont like in a big city and I cant live in Japan now omg! Maybe when im like... 65 years old...
MurdocLC 1 year ago
'fluency' does not mean 'nativity' that's why I don't quite understand why you were talking about non-natives speaking Japanese, and native Japanese who can say if the person speaking is a native or not.
Wilhelm9080 1 year ago
Nobody speaks English fluently, such a crazy language.
DeaNovo 1 year ago
"Accurately and articulately", if not with unreasonable expectation, is more realistic.
I consider to be fluent anyone who can speak and write as well (accurately and articulately, but perhaps with an accent) as most people who have lived in the culture their whole lives. My previous supervisor and my current boss are both Indian. They speak as well as most college-educated Americans, but they make mistakes I don't and they have a non-interfering accent. I still consider them fluent.
annagulaev 1 year ago
@annagulaev (continued) My Japanese teacher is usually easily understood and communicates well, and he probably knows more about the English language than most Americans, but he occasionally misunderstands things that nobody else in the room misunderstands, and occasionally his accent makes people misunderstand things he says (e.g. work vs walk). While I think he knows the language more than most natives, technically, and he communicates really well, I don't consider him fluent.
annagulaev 1 year ago
Very well said on this topic!
vszt 1 year ago
At 3.29, with respect, I think you are setting the bar too high! Concise Oxford defines "fluent" as "flowing naturally and readily", which is how I've always viewed fluency. Almost everyone becomes fluent in their native language, to greater or lesser degrees of finesse. And, with practise, non-native speakers can achieve this too. I have a Japanese friend who, when speaking to me over the phone, is indistinguishable from native Oz speakers. It can be done! With practise, I agree!!!
Expresso98 1 year ago
wait so only a small percentage of native English speakers speak fluent English?
If you take accurate to mean `perfect` (i.e. never make a mistake) do you even speak fluent English?
okamichamploo 1 year ago
@KyoshioNiwa I totally agree! With this point of view, nobody is ever fluently in his own native language! 'Cause when I have to look something up in the code of law, I certainly need a synonym dictionary!!!
In my opinion "fluently" means to talk straigth, without the need of circumscribing something !
But it is all a matter of how somebody is interpreting "fluently" :)
chrismecking 1 year ago
I must ask then, how do all those people who immigrate to Japan e.g. from Korea or China become fluent then? The school I went to, the students were fluent within a short amount of time and participating in normal classes with and their grades on average were on par with their other classmates
anbuwildninjax 1 year ago
@KyoshioNiwa
I don't take EVERYTHING so literally.. but I get asked questions about the "fluent" thing every day and I guess I have become a bit pedantic about the semantics of that particularly word..
If we change the meaning of the word to "fluid" and ONLY "fluid" my opinion would be a little different ^_^
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago
In my opinion, you're over-thinking this. When people ask if you're fluent, I don't think they're meaning to ask if you are so well-versed that even a native wouldn't be able to tell that Japanese wasn't your native language. I'm thinking that most people simply wish to know if you're capable of having a quick paced conversation with someone without having to stop to think about what you want to say, or taking an extended period of time to process what the opposite speaker said.
KyoshioNiwa 1 year ago 2
Hmm Your point is very good and true BUT lol if we went off the dictioanries definiton for everything itd put exceptions to alot of things we say colloquially. Being 'fluent' said coloquially, to most people means a very high standard of the language. Two of my japanese friends say they are 'fluent' in english and I agree that they are
irit8r 1 year ago
I see your point but there are more factors involved. I've noticed that people who don't speak English are generally signicantly more fluent that most English speakers in Japan. I have one Japanese-Brazilian friend who never spoke a word of Japanese before coming to Japan, but everyone I introduce him to thinks he was born and raised in Japan. They are always shocked when he tells them he first came to Japan as an adult. I used to have a girlfriend from Korea who spoke just as well.
gokuo64 1 year ago
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gokuo64 1 year ago
did you get a new car?
okinawaskate 1 year ago
Maybe this helps to give another perspective, im studying japanese language (and culture) on a university. The bachelor is 3 years, and when im done, I'll probably be able to pass JLPT 2(that's how it's called, right?). After that, to get better, you pretty much have to go to Japan.
SireStefan 1 year ago
I Personally find that most people that learned English as a second language tend to speak better than people that grew up here [America], Because they learned "Textbook" and don't have a dialect to it. They might say "Do Any of you have a pen?" Where people that grew up in certain parts might say "Do any yall got a pen?"
chopperboi89 1 year ago
@chopperboi89 Most stupid shit I've ever heard in my life.
IPlayInBeastMode 1 year ago
Agreed. Great video.
birddogg62 1 year ago
I think it really comes down to how you define 'fluent'. My Chinese friend speaks really good English & can get through most situations perfectly. You can tell that she isn't a native speaker but I would consider her fluent. Her grammar and written comprehension is better than some native speakers that I know! If I was learning a foreign language that's what I would strive for. 'Mastery' in a foreign language is a whole other ball game & I think could only really be achieved by a linguist.
one4sorrow 1 year ago
LET's keep practicing!
BombBug 1 year ago
Joe Satriani and his Ibanez guitar...beyond fluent !
junkie4vids 1 year ago
@miStiKredum
I would not call them "stars".. they are usually side-kicks...
But Dave Spector would probably be the most famous..
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago
One of my friends called me out today asking me why I started to say "hey guys" with an Australian accent...
I think I've found the answer.
seeltheseal 1 year ago 2
That's sort of prejudiced. If you were non-Japanese yet born in Japan (by foreign parents) and brought up in Japan I think you would most likely speak Japanese fluently. If someone looks at you on the screen it doesn't entitle them to make the decision that you're not fluent.
DemonofChaos264 1 year ago
@DemonofChaos264
If you were born and raised in Japan you would be Japanese and would obviously speak Japanese fluently - would be my thinking..
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago 3
@TheJapanChannelDcom But according to your interpretation of the meaning fluent, no native Japanese people can speak Japanese fluently....
SHIFT2WIN1 1 year ago
too many dialects in Japanese. even if you become fluent in Tokyo, you may sound silly to someone who lives in Hiroshima :(
spandexninja 1 year ago
lol, acording to this video...most people I know here in the states cant even speak English fluently :P
viatus 1 year ago
One of my foreign language professors said fluency meant speaking the language in a "fluid or flowing" manner. For example, if you are able to speak and answer questions in complete sentences without pause you are fluent. While this is different than the dictionary definition, I think that is what most people are asking you when they want to know if you are fluent.
jadabrizi 1 year ago 6
@jadabrizi that sounds about right to me!!!!
BriCareful 1 year ago
@jadabrizi
If we could just add "on any subject" I would vote that Oxford change their definition to this ^_^
TheJapanChannelDcom 1 year ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
@jadabrizi
then half of americans are not fluent in english.
ShinjiXShinji 1 year ago
@jadabrizi you would also need to pause to think about the answer..
animefreak1467 1 year ago
joe sat is awesome!
worldtravel101 1 year ago
I would define fluent as being able to just communicate in most situations. I think most people feel the same.
dr3pts 1 year ago
There are people who "speak" well, but have no grasp of the culture. Then there are people with noticeable foreign accents, yet by their reply we recognize their full grasp of the subtle shades of words, and nuance of expression and gesture. For me, though it would be nice to speak fluently, without sounding "foreign", I feel the most important thing is to be able to recognize the "connotation" of a culture within a language, and become "fluent" in expressing thoughts within that interpretation.
DelusionalJ 1 year ago
How about we look at the Japanese definition of fluent based on the kanji, since that's the language mainly in question: 流暢 (ryuuchou). 流 means "flowing" as in a river and 暢 means "stretched out, comfortable." Basically, someone is fluent according to Japanese if they can speak without pausing and aren't awkward while doing it. Based on this definition, I'd say most people who can function and enjoy daily life alone in a foreign country w/o having to rely on a bilingual friend are fluent.
JoeInJapan86 1 year ago
Comment removed
arivas713 1 year ago
i speak native english, i was raised in the good ole u.s. of a and if you were to ask me or any native english speaker a technical or scientific or medical term then i and every other native english speaker will be dumbfounded. from what ive been told it takes about 2 years of HARD work or 3-4 years of half-assing it to speak a native or near native level. i think its called the 10,000 hour rule. this is true when learning a language or learning how to play the piano, golf or any talent or skill
arivas713 1 year ago
Only a few percent of native english speakers can speak accurately.
jayjjj3 1 year ago
I think its ridiculous to assert that fluency means making ZERO MISTAKES. Im a native english speaker, Im fluent, and I make mistakes ALL the time. I think what your talking about as far as not being able to talk about economics or politics etc. is less to do with language inability and more to do with a fundamental ignorance of the subject at hand. There are plenty of Japanese,Im sure who wouldn't be able to speak compatently on those kinds of subjects.
Jake106 1 year ago
Also natural spoken language is brutal in it's speed and the ways it breaks the rules. Thinking about spoken english between two friends, there's slang, words are run together or cut short, and things are barely pronounced. Even amongst native spekers, if you're with a friend and a stranger, you can pretty easily speak quickly and choose unusual words such that your friend understands perfectly clear but the other guy has no idea what you just said.
320x200 1 year ago
I agree and disagree with you, as you say :)
Your point of being able to converse with lawyers and doctors and understanding their professional terms kind of makes sense. There is a certain amount of understanding when you speak to a lawyer and doctor, but it is nowhere near perfect, even in your first language. For example, there are many people who don't understand the Latin words that are common in English, but it doesn't mean that they're not fluent.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7705922.stm
afronathan 1 year ago
I think it's true what you say about not being able to match native Japanese speakers in language proficiency. But, I think that most people would be satisfied knowing the language well enough to function in day to day life. Personally that'd be fine for me. Great video though, it's nice to here someone being honest about this!
ChristianDiMaria 1 year ago
My language arts teacher told me to never use the phrase "the dictionary defines _____ as _____" lol
idaho777 1 year ago
I see a serious bias in your argument, when you say a fluent speaker must be "accurate and articulate". Most people grow up and speak like the people they learned to speak from. An english professor from an Ivy League university might not think that a hoodlum from a low-class ghetto in New York speaks very "eloquently" yet that person is perfectly versed in his sect of english and much better than the professor at communicating with people in his neighborhood.
Clearie552 1 year ago
I disagree; I know I'm fluent... because I watch your videos!
abuccilli 1 year ago
I would have thought one of the most popular questions would have been what do u do or what made you move there...
tivaevae 1 year ago
Also, what if you were born in Taiwan, lived there to middle school, and moved to Japan? Looking back, my English did not drastically improve from middle school. Then, what if you moved to Japan in Middle/High school? You still grow up in this Japanese environment and you don't miss out on much. (especially cause of the kanji characters)
i8thefood 1 year ago
Based on your definition, even native people do not speak their language fluently. If I've been born in the States, my English level will not be as good as that professor who's teaching over at Harvard. What if I've majored in a science rather than literature arts. Am I considered not fluent in English? If so, 95% of all native speakers of any country are not fluent. If you have to have a PHD to be fluent, your argument is unjustly one-sided.
i8thefood 1 year ago
I think you're taking Japanese culture into your own everyday english. "Let's keep practicing"
IIIGregorIII 1 year ago
100% agree.
MochiMegan 1 year ago
I can fluently speak Spanish and english so people who say that you can't fluently speak two languages you're wrong
captize 1 year ago
I like that you're honest about it. Sure, people might want to hear that if they study twice a week for just one year they'll be able to speak Japanese, but unfortunately that's just not going to happen and people need to understand that.
I personally don't take the meaning of 'fluent' to that extreme. I think, like you said, if you can carry on a decent conversation with a stranger, or someone on the phone, that'd be enough for me to deem fluent. Perhaps at a high school level I suppose?
angelwings1086 1 year ago
what about news papers? or news on tv i know about the whole speakers plans and cars but what about news paper or news tv?
itachikiller107 1 year ago
I have to agree with the video uploader's definition of fluent. Most people will never be fluent in any language (Local or foreigner) by that definition. My definition of fluent is being able to hold a casual conversation and effectively convey your message and understand most of the other person message.
akin242002 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I just read your response to a comment, "it is virtually impossible for foreigners to get jobs drawing manga in Japan..."
What? You are crossing lines, sir. If I could, I would have to give you a double-thumbs down! I may have to carry this thumb over into the next video. I will have to see if that one insults me and it too is negative.
qncsc 1 year ago
I am going to have to give you my first thumbs down. You are being too dogmatic. Sorry!
qncsc 1 year ago
Oh, I don't want to hear this!
And "accurate" as zero mistakes is too much; rather, how about, "showing a negligible or permissible deviation from a standard."
No one is perfect...I don't care how many Japanese boast of their abilities. And they do boast but they do it by subterfuge: They denigrate small errancies. And by "they," I am referring to all the Japanese that I have known, which are only those who live in Japan and were born in Japan.
And I would equate "fluency" with facile.
qncsc 1 year ago
Sensei told me that the 6,000 or more kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2 percent or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
FakiaKun224 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Sensei told me that the 6,000+ kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2 percent or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
FakiaKun224 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Sensei told me that the 6,000+ kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2% or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
FakiaKun224 1 year ago
Sensei told me that the 6,000+ kanji that the Japanese use, out of the whole population, only a very small percent, like 2% or something, have passed that Japanese proficiency test on the kanji. Not even the Japanese themselves know every single kanji, very few do, so to be absolutely "fluent" is practically impossible. The only language you could be "fluent" in is probably Morse code.
FakiaKun224 1 year ago
Languages are so vast and complex that no person can ever hope to find unmitigated perfection in any language... so don't worry about it and enjoy the constant state of discovery we are all in. (^_^) Language if fun!!
NodnarbRS 1 year ago
I'd be happy to speak it to a point where it's as if they're talking to any one they know. I could live without the very "proper" talk, or "formal" speaking. Just a bit of that would be fine.
LookSquirrel 1 year ago
Well I'm bilingual in English and Spanish they are both my 1st languages. I wouldn't say I'm fluent according to the real definition of "fluent" because I still make mistake plus I use conjunctions and stuff like that, that really isn't proper english, plus there are many words in both english and spanish I still don't know. To me fluent means though like ... a person who can speak more than conversational in a language. Like get by on a day to day basis like if it was your native language.
pokemongurl93 1 year ago
i really enjoy your videos you have allowed me to see a side of Japan that, I other wise would have had no way of accessing. thank you very much
murphyslove 1 year ago
I must study more. I do think that regardless of any language a minimum of at least 10 years is needed to become decent in a language. I agree with you on this video keep them up!.
citycyborg 1 year ago
Let's keep practising! - Ah, I see what you did there... ^_^
I agree with you - almost nobody will ever be fluent in a foreign language - especially one so complex as japanese!
But we don't need to, do we? As long as we can communicate with others in a foreign language and keep on learning to do so better every day - everything's fine! =)
I don't know about others, but I learn other languages, so that I can understand others and am able to talk to them - it's ok for me, if I make mistakes... ^_^
Jemima1377 1 year ago
@Jemima1377 "I agree with you - almost nobody will ever be fluent in a foreign language" utterly utterly false really. I know tons of people who speak a second language fluently, tiny tiny steps away from a native level. I myself speak two languages fluent (English being my second language).
TokyoZeplin 1 year ago