Roland C-30 Digital Harpsichord - First Impressions III: Comparison with Acoustic Harpsichord

[askim925]

The real instruments is always better !!

[ccoraxfan]

No doubt about it, the real harpsichord is much superior in sound. It has "presence" that the electronic copy doesn't have. The Roland sounds quite bland in comparison.

[kennykeyboard]

In the comparison I noticed more reverb for a larger space with the Roland. The normal harpsichord had the slight buzz from the felt coming back on the string. I think the allure of a real harpsichord is the fact that it's not something everyone has and that It takes work to maintain. Once you get into an electronic simulation you find the need to create a sound that compliments the piece best. I still like the C-30 because it's a noble effort.

[paranormaalutrecht]

nice, but this has nothing to do with a real harpsichord... sorry.

[vortexxman]

It's a shame Roland didn't include a clavichord sample on the C-30. I have yet to see any digital keyboard/synthesizer that has a clavichord sound. Most keyboards have a clavinet sound, which is basically an electric clavichord, but it's not really suitable for renaissance/baroque music. Perhaps I'm weird, but I like the clavichord better than the harpsichord. It's more expressive, and you can control vibrato. Maybe I'll get a real clavichord someday.

[TheStatue1]

@vortexxman Yes, I wish someone would make an electric clavichord. It would have both a Renaissance fretted sound and the larger unfretted one that is good for CPE Bach,Mozart and some early Beethoven. I do think that it would technically be very difficult to electronically duplicate the vibrato(bebung) which is a great expressive device available on acoustic clavichords. But I could live without it-someone please make any kind of electric clavichord please.....

[srugai]

ok the sound seems identical, but why in the video when it plays the true harpsichord to the beginning there is book of notes, and then when it changes scene it disappears book of notes from the lectern?

[Heikkiantila]

@srugai Well observed!! I was alone and did the recording with a single camera and a tripod. I did not need the notes, and obviously I had removed the notes from the stand between the takes.

[srugai]

@Heikkiantila thanks for the explanation. However compliment the piece it is very beautiful and you are very good.

[Clavichordist]

Thank you for your comparision. Very nice playing!

his makes me feel better about my investment. I used some digital recordings of my instrument for a presentation at my uni. The class and my professor were impressed. :-)

[fnersch]

Thanks for the demo. I recently bought a C-30 and love it. It compares very well to the real thing.  I built several harpsichords and organs and the C-30 holds up very good against them. Kudos to Roland..

[sanskara]

@fnersch Where did you buy it? Nobody seems to have it for sale. I can't even find out how much it is.

[fnersch]

@sanskara, I purchased it thru Hollywood Piano in Burbank, CA. Call Leonard at 818-954-8500 for details. This is the only dealer in the Western US that can get them. Dont know of any other dealers. Total cost was $5400.

[otomeyama]

Thank you for uploading to all of us.

I think musical instruments have always  developed by utilizing the most advanced technique available and it has enabled more people to

enjoy it or learn the instrument.

Great music is great without regard of digital or accoustic, live or recorded.

Thank you very much.

[domenicozipoli]

Amazing !!

[chriswales19]

I used to own the C-50, which was the original Roland digital harpsichord. It was pretty rotten. I played the C-30 a few months ago in a showroom in Boston and was impressed at the accurate touch and more authentic sound produced. Its no substitute of course, but for anyone who doesn't want the utter hassle and pain of owning a real harpsichord this is a fine substitute. Nice to hear some sounds on this video :)

[Heikkiantila]

Thanks for the comment. I completely agree :-).

[piriapolis2008]

sorry I prefer the original harpsichord, the roland is very digital and i can see the keys are more big of key of the harpsichord (size piano) sorry my english.// prefiero el clave original acustico el roland es muy digital por mas perfecto que sea ,ademas las teclas veo son grandes como las del piano , no sirve para el verdadero clavecinista

[Heikkiantila]

Don't be sorry, my English is far from perfect, too. I completely agree. In some earlier responses I remember complaining about  c30's sterility and lack of personality. The touch and the keyboard differ so much from those of the acoustic instrument, that it somewhat limits its use for practising.

[umbyronco85]

@piriapolis2008 Is obvious the string vibration and resonation is always better.

[latribe]

I have posted a video response to this - search "real harpsichord" and you'll find it in which you can hear a Rolls Royce of a real harpsichord made by Clayson and Garrett in 1970 on authentic lines. It's built like a giant guitar and the sound is captivatingly beautiful, very unlike the sound of harpsichords built with a piano frame.

The Roland exaggerates the _noise_ of the plectrum returning to its rest point on its way past the string. It simulates bad voicing on a real instrument.

[Heikkiantila]

Thanks for the response. I watched through Your clip and could not help feeling a sting of envy. Your instrument is absolutely gorgeous with a beautiful, warm tone and looks very nice too. I agree with Your commen on the plectrum sound, especially if You combine both 8' stops together with the 4´ register.

[latribe]

:-) I'm green with envy too - it's not mine! It belongs to my sons' school where it had lain unplayed for 30 years. It was made for the school but said to be so complicated it could not be maintained. The truth was that no-one noticed that the soundboard had come unglued. If you search "clayson and garrett 1970 harpsichord repair" you'll see what I had to do to get it playing again. I just hope they don't ruin it again with central heating. Search "hammerwood harpsichord" for my inferior beast.

[latribe]

The reality is that electronic instruments can be satisfying at first and become a stepping stone to real instruments as one hears more and more the perfection of real hand craftsmanship. But there are real instruments and real instruments - some are wonderful, some are good and some are less good. And they need not just plectra but voicing of the plectra - thinning them down with a knife on a block, grading them to the tension of the strings and getting them to pluck gracefully.

[dhowellbassist]

I am getting ready to purchase one of these. I found your video very helpful.  Being a purist, I am surprised to say that I like the sound of the Roland better the the real harpsichord in your video. LOL. I think I might be going to hell for saying that. I particularly like the portative organ sounds on this instrument.

[latribe]

Nothing really replaces a proper harpsichord. The Roland will simply have sampled a different type. But most importantly the touch of the Roland simply is not real. One needs a real harpsichord for that.

[dhowellbassist]

I mean, really.. Is that comment even necessary? Of course the real thing is better, but how many people do you know that have a harpsichord and/or positive organ in their home? And of course there are differences in touch, and I have played plenty of harpsichords, and they all are different. Some are great, some are awful. Yes, the C-30 keybd is a little light, but there is a good amount of resistance compared to a normal keyboard. That being said, I am thankful to have this in my living room

[latribe]

Well of course I understand what you are saying but often on eBay in England a William de Blaise small instrument can be picked up for just a few hundred pounds and is little larger than the electronic which is much more expensive.

I'm getting fed up of the electronification of humanity often encouraged only by the feeling of having to keep up with the Jones in technology. Why? Quills plucking strings are simpler. They will still be plucking strings in 100 years time: electronics will die.

[leifhain]

@latribe

Would you accept the challenge of a blind test? I did it with an audience of professional musicians. Most of them think the Roland is the real one. Funny. I did a lot of continuo on it. No string player, no singer, no director, no choir ever complained. Actually, I am afraid nobody hears the difference certainly when mixed in an orchestra.

[leifhain]

@latribe

The touch indeed could be better. Need more plectrum feel for accurate timing. But it must be said: most of the real harpsichords we used in music schools and conservatories and those we rented for concerts were problematic (touch, tuning, intonation).

[domenicozipoli]

Great music !!!

[DBJ06]

Would be better with a best harpsichordist,, no one available?

I play better than this guy,, should have call me for the take,, lol

[Heikkiantila]

Great idea. Welcome to Finland. You play, I record.

[wurlic300]

Hi Heikki!

Thanks for the reply. Our local Rodgers dealer told us we could MIDI the C-30 into the 3 manual organ or vice-versa, thus making it possible to use the 108 stops on the main organ with the C-30 (hope it's true!). Do you know what samples they used for the fortepiano?

Are you, overall, satisfied with the C-30? Do you find the stand sturdy enough? I'm a little concerned about children tipping the thing over.

[Heikkiantila]

Sounds very impressive. I would be very interested to know, how Your MIDI experiment ends. Overall, I am very satisfied with C-30. The stand is relatively sturdy, and supports easily the instrument. It is not made of marble, though, and a group of playing children might knock it over by accident. The only slight complaints might be about the touch and the size of the keys. I would also rather see the inverted colours in the keyboard.

[mindaflame7]

Hi there, beautiful instrument, and equally beautiful playing! Could you please tell me how much i coul get one of these for in american dollars? i keep on doing internet searches and there never seems to be a price tag on it. Thanks...

[Heikkiantila]

Hi and thanks. I bought mine from Finland about a year ago, and the price was then 2,520.00 euros equalling 3,495.82 US dollars using the present exchange rate.

[mindaflame7]

Thank you. I guess it's time for me to start saving up for it. I wanted to get one for my birthday next month, but i'm about $1000 short. It's either that, or if i get desperate enough, i'll just buy a digital piano with a "decent" harpsichord sound. Oh boy, those are hard to find...Cheers

[nicksum29]

Oh, oh, oh, how I would love to get my hands on one of those, but at 3000 Euro, it is a little out of my price range right now. Lucky, lucky man!

[JJFroberger]

The size of the keys? How much bigger are they than a harpsichord? They are not of the size of a piano keyboard, are they? And what is wrong with the touch?

[Heikkiantila]

Difficult question to answer, since there is no such thing as "standard harpsichord keyboard". The keys of C-30 are longer than in most harpsichords that I have seen, especially the broad part of the naturals, but much shorter than in modern pianos. The sharps are short and narrow. It is really a compromise, allowing the player to choose between the modern and old fingering. The touch is very light. You can feel plucking of the strings with a real harpsichord but not really with c-30.

[Heikkiantila]

Sorry to say, I have not the faintest idea, how they managed the sampling of the fortepiano (or any other stops, for that matter) in Roland.

[wurlic300]

We ordered a C-30 for our church today. Our piano is about "dead" and although the harpsichord stop on our new Rodgers is pretty good, it only plays at 8'. We also needed portability for use with our Childrens Choir for instances when they are singing outside the church venue. I'll let you know my impressions when it arrives (around the end of May).

[Heikkiantila]

Congratulations! I am sure, You will enjoy Your new instrument. I believe C-30 is very suitable for church use, after all it has also two very nice organ stops.

[visionbach]

I too got me the Roland C-30; it is so cute and sounds so nice. I´m thankful Roland did that. Playing a harpsichord-sound on an electronic piano is so terrible, because you actually play a piano-keyboard. But Roland got it!!!

[gorannil1951]

My C-30 arrived Tuesday (14/4).

I have many positive things to say about it.

It is very easy to play (especially trills).

The nice easy touch makes fingers and body relax in a way I just have dreamt of before at my lead-heavy digital piano keys.

Now I just have to adjust my fingers somewhat to the shorter harpsichord keys. Yes you have to curl your fingers if not to bang into the board.

Recommended !

[Heikkiantila]

Congratulations! I tried to answer to Your previous post too, but somehow the message got lost. Yes, C-30 is a delight to play. The touch is indeed very light compared with that of a modern piano and even with a real harpsichord. I wish Roland had concentrated a little more still to the touch, shape and material of the keys. The naturals resemble very closely the keys of almost any digital keyboard. The sharps are better, but still rather far from the real thing.

[gorannil1951]

I don't understand how these sets of strings (8' I, 8'II and 4') are used on a real acoustic harpsichord. And the lute is this also included in a real one. Is the lute also used together with some of the other sets ?

In the Roland Hector Olivera demos it just sais that these sets can be used together wiothout no other explanation or reference to how it works on a real acoustic CEMBALO.

I say CEMBALO because I ordered my C-30 (should arrive 14/4) from germany where there are many sellers.

[Heikkiantila]

Thanks. My main motive in uploading these videos was to provide some background and scope for discussions rather than giving high artistic pleasures to the audience, which would be beyond my capability anyways. C-30, although not perfect, is a surprisingly decent little thing, and I suppose there must be a multitude of people out there, who would die to own a real harpsichord, but cannot afford one, or suspect that they would not know, how to maintain it.

[typ22geil]

he plays so terribly...sorry

[Heikkiantila]

Haha.. Unfortunately, I must totally agree with You ;-). Thanks for the comment, anyways....

[gorannil1951]

Nice playing !

I Agree the C-30 sounds much better than the acoustic one.

Of course Roland did sample a very good harpsichord which beats

a not so very good CEMBALO. Amazing !

I wonder if not also the "roland touch" may indeed resemble

the touch of a superior instrument.

(I have a C-30 on order. I started practice on my childrens digital piano.

I can only play 5 inventions by heart. That is all.)

What is the right temperament for the inventions ?

[gorannil1951]

You can also hear that the acoustic harpsichord has another (not so good) temperament

(= out of tune I suppose)

[Heikkiantila]

The acoustic instrument belongs to our local conservatory, and was certainly out of tune when I did the recording. I have not reached the point in my harpsichord studies, where I could do the tuning myself. The climate changes almost on a daily basis here in Southern Finland during winter, so harpsichord in general, and this piece in particular is constantly out of tune, and should be tuned several times per week.

[Heikkiantila]

If You are looking for THE absolutely correct temperament Bach himself would have used, I am rather sure none of the options given in C-30 would do. I am not even convinced, whether it is generally known how Bach tuned his keyboard instruments. But don't worry, the well-tempered options in C-30 are so close to each other, that it takes also a well-trained ear to hear the difference. Personally, I prefer to use baroque pitch and Kirnberger or Wetckmeister temperaments when playing Bach.

[Heikkiantila]

Under favourable conditions, I would rather certainly hear the difference between the meantone and the rest of the temperaments, and might (but only might) to pick up the equal. Almost certainly, I could not name Werckmeister, Kirnberger , or Vallotti.

[gorannil1951]

If You use baroque pitch and Kirnberger then turn the C-30 off. What happens when You turn the C-30 on again ?

Are the C-30 back to 440Hz and equal temperamet or is there a way to fix so they are still there ?

On my digital piano I can decide which I want.

[Heikkiantila]

C-30 always returns to 440 Hz and equql temperament, which is somewhat irritating.

[gorannil1951]

How do You manage to change between the acoustic and the C-30 ?

The C-30 key are normal piano size so the acoustic harpsichord keys are not the same width.

[Heikkiantila]

Badly. The size of the keys is different, the touch is different, and the material of the keys is different. I do the most part of the practising at home with C-30, and then go to the conservatory a night before my lessons just to get used to the different touch. Roland should have focused more on the keyboard when creating this instrument, even if this would have meant higher production costs (and naturally, also higher price).

[gorannil1951]

Anyway Your playing is VERY good !

[rh7189]

I still have my C20 and its going if only just

[Lutzenberger]

its always how the harpsichord is and HOW the player is ... cmon,

[Heikkiantila]

Absolutely, there is no sense to compare two different isntruments, except just for fun. The player is the same, though...

[Heikkiantila]

I totally agree. Acoustic harpsichord is such a beautiful instrument. I also like the Roland sound . After having had the opportunity to regularly practice on a real thing, the much advertized "clicking action" of the C-30 keyboard has been sort of a disappointment. It is actually quite vague and resembles only remotely the plucking touch of a real harpsichord.

[Brandotuomikoski]

WOW! That roland is nice! I would say it has bigger sound than the real deal. I would take the roland for sound, but the real one for the case!

[cmtmusik]

Great Words!