Living in one commune for 2 years does not entitle you to speak with the authority you do. I can tell you are speaking of EastWind community. However, NOT ALL communities are like them. They are as different as a snowflake is each unique. You speak of there 70.00 each month as though they are being treated wrong in some way. The people who come to a community do so because most of them want something different than the status quo.
I would like to add that all societies have similarities to communes. You discribed the very same thing that takes place in any capitalistic society also. However the difference is in the compensation. Without a means of printing money with fake value the society not exist for long. When compensations is real goods value is equitable. However people want more than their effort is worth so by printing paper money they can get more but this inflates the value. A snow ball !
Yeah, everyone is not equal but I believe that everyone must have the same status. Everyone must make the same contribution. A person who sits in an office DOES NOT make the same contribution as a person who sweats and toils growing the food. The contribution also is not equal to that is a person who gets greasey fixing the equipment. For it to work everyone must sweat the same amount ! You are correct ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Hey, really enjoyed that, it brought my instinct against full egalitarian communities into the light. I'm thinking of heading down to Earthaven ecovillage down in W. NC. They are an independent-income community with a diverse range of micro-communities and an emerging village economy. Lots of experienced teachers of sustainable skills from what I can see. Any knowledge/opinion of them?
@bwc113 I remember really enjoying the Earth Haven people who came to visit. I never visited EH but I've lived in West NC and it is absolutely gorgeous.
The one thing I can't stress enough is don't expect to find a non hierarchical society. Communes have a strong tendency toward cliquishness. Expect something a lot closer to Middle School than Utopia. Also avoid potheads and boozers, they are parasites in hippie communities. Some even make their living drifting from one to the other.
@madscirat Thanks a bunch. I read the beginning of Ken Wilbers' "Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality" and gained a better understanding of how hierarchies are inevitable. Everything is both a part of larger wholes, and a whole with parts; and the connections between are always moving/shifting. The deeper you go the deeper it gets sorta thing. Maybe the commune thing is a subconscious overreaction to crappy hierarchies, ones that are setup with greatly restrictive worldviews.
@bwc113 Wilber was talking about holorchies. Hierarchies are an artificial structure imposed within the same holon. An example of a true holarchy would be me and the earth or my body's cells and me. With the holarchy each level is actually greater but encompasses the one below it. But social hierachies fail to encompass much of human intelligence, feeling and insight thus they are not a true holon.
@madscirat OK, what then? Do we continue to create these structures? Seems instinctive. With enough focus on awareness and flexibility in dealing with the ongoing shifting in reality, could a hierarchy at least WORK? I wonder if we require tribal groups simply because they're small enough to even begin to grasp the whole picture of interaction within and without. Are we even capable of dropping the whole idea and simple being with what is?
im not disagreeing with you, you definitely know what your talking about. but the main essential reason most communes don't work are because of the people who want to join are joining for the wrong reasons. they have this vision in their heads of what they think its like and the person they want to be, the sad thing is they are wrong, they find out thats not at all who they are or what they want to do.
@derekghgh It is true that I did not join a commune bc/ I wanted to replace one set of overlords with another. I thought I was entering an egalitarian system and in my defense, these places do call themselves egalitarian. The fact that any attempt to make people equal is always forged on the back of some new sort of tyranny is something I hadn't yet realized.
Comunes composed by 90% "service" labor and 10% of manufacturing... Of course it won't work. And to compare the standards of living in comunes compared to the standard of living in a nation state, it's like comparing primitive people with the corps of engineers.
What you describe is a pyramid scheme. I don't see anything wrong with increasing rewards for people who do difficult jobs that others tend to avoid. There is a misconception that Marxists, socialists, and communists oppose such things in principle, as if that was the root of class divisions, exploitation, and oppression. I'd suggest reading Marx's "Critique of the Gotha Programme" which takes up these questions in detail, even though I know you're a free-market conservative libertarian.
@binhthanhvo A pyramid scheme? You are jumping to conclusions. Egalitarian communities don't set out to make money or pull in wealthy people. Most of their members are poor
Marxists, like all fascists, have at root some idea that they can make people better. Many do this by eliminating property, but that is not the essential delusion. The essential delusion is that the system you install to remove inequity won't create its own kind. This is in fact what happens.
@madscirat What I meant is that it's a pyramid scheme in that it only works if you recruit new people into it. That's how Madoff made off. I know communes aren't out to fleece people, I was making a comparison to their constant need for "fresh blood" to stay afloat.
Communes always fail because you can't have an island of socialism in a sea of capitalism. Furthermore, someone owning their own toothbrush, CD player, or whatever is not the root of class society. Private property is not THE problem; sadly, much of the socialist/Marxist left gets caught up in the question of private property and misses the importance of social relations. Lack of private property doesn't mean there is no exploitation. The feudal Catholic Church had no private property for ex.
//Communes always fail because you can't have an island of socialism in a sea of capitalism.//
Total bullshit. Communes actualy get tax rightoffs from the Feds so they have more advantage than private enterprise. No forces from the outside caused the communes I saw to stagnate rather than succeed. In fact they were quite independent from the outside. The reason they fail is bc/ they rely on altruism not the trade of equal value for equal value.
@madscirat They are still surrounded and shaped by capitalism, even with the tax right offs. One way or another, communes have to interact with the capitalist economy. Did your commune manufacture its own tools, mine its own minerals, grow all of its own food, chop down its own wood, etc. from scratch? And yes, no one can abolish the law of value - no Marxist with half a brain would argue with that. I still think you might want to read the book I mentioned above.
@binhthanhvo True but then by your logic any system that goes under is because of capitalism as if its simply the touch of death. And yet this is clearly not the case. Intelligent companies with motivated workforces and (bc/ of our corrupt gov.) companies with political pull both survive in the current model. So whats different with communes that makes them die? Exactly what I said, they attempt to sever the tie between work and profit (well that and they don't have much political pull either)
@binhthanhvo I'm not to interested in Marx Ive seen how socialism plays out in reality and in history. As an empiricist I consider that the ultimate test of any philosophy regardless of its founder. This is the same reason I mistrust dogmatic religion, and the two major political parties. Each shows their true colors when they gain the upperhand and in each case it isn't pretty.
@Zamolxx Oh goodie, I always wanted to live in Fantasia. Seriously though, explain what exactly makes empiricism bankrupt. Simply declaring something is not information for me or any rational being.
@madscirat My point about Marx is that you cannot found a commune based on Marx's principles because he was against communes! His entire political philosophy developed because he clashed so strongly with the socialists of his day, Saint Simon, Fourier, etc. all of whom favored founding communes. Engels wrote a book about it, "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific." If a commune is proof that Marxism doesn't work, then public utilities are proof that free-markets don't work.
@binhthanhvo Point taken. I was using socialism in the broader sense of the world. As I said I am not against any system just those that don't work and those that prevent us from determining what works. I suspect, based on my experience and reason that socialist systems will not work bc/ in a free confederacy the most productive will choose to live in states that do not tax success. I could be wrong and this is the reason I advocate politically diverse systems.
@madscirat Again, to me saying that communes are proof that Marxism doesn't work is like saying Enron/WorldCom/Lehman is proof that free-market capitalism doesn't work. If you can't make an anti-capitalist argument without resorting to cases involving some form of illegal activity that is the exception rather than the rule, your argument against capitalism is weak as all hell. lol
@binhthanhvo See my video on Minarchy. I explain there that systems need to exist so that they can fail. I saw egalitarianism fail without outside influence any different from any other organization. Therefore I know it fails. I suspect socialism and communism would fail bc/ they share the beliefs which I think made egalitarian communes fail. However, I support every system's right to exist so long as they obey those principles which assure such diversity.
are you going make more movies about communes?
vain911 8 months ago
Living in one commune for 2 years does not entitle you to speak with the authority you do. I can tell you are speaking of EastWind community. However, NOT ALL communities are like them. They are as different as a snowflake is each unique. You speak of there 70.00 each month as though they are being treated wrong in some way. The people who come to a community do so because most of them want something different than the status quo.
ThePeacevillage 8 months ago
I would like to add that all societies have similarities to communes. You discribed the very same thing that takes place in any capitalistic society also. However the difference is in the compensation. Without a means of printing money with fake value the society not exist for long. When compensations is real goods value is equitable. However people want more than their effort is worth so by printing paper money they can get more but this inflates the value. A snow ball !
Engineer245 8 months ago
Yeah, everyone is not equal but I believe that everyone must have the same status. Everyone must make the same contribution. A person who sits in an office DOES NOT make the same contribution as a person who sweats and toils growing the food. The contribution also is not equal to that is a person who gets greasey fixing the equipment. For it to work everyone must sweat the same amount ! You are correct ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Engineer245 8 months ago
Hey, really enjoyed that, it brought my instinct against full egalitarian communities into the light. I'm thinking of heading down to Earthaven ecovillage down in W. NC. They are an independent-income community with a diverse range of micro-communities and an emerging village economy. Lots of experienced teachers of sustainable skills from what I can see. Any knowledge/opinion of them?
bwc113 1 year ago
@bwc113 I remember really enjoying the Earth Haven people who came to visit. I never visited EH but I've lived in West NC and it is absolutely gorgeous.
The one thing I can't stress enough is don't expect to find a non hierarchical society. Communes have a strong tendency toward cliquishness. Expect something a lot closer to Middle School than Utopia. Also avoid potheads and boozers, they are parasites in hippie communities. Some even make their living drifting from one to the other.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat Thanks a bunch. I read the beginning of Ken Wilbers' "Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality" and gained a better understanding of how hierarchies are inevitable. Everything is both a part of larger wholes, and a whole with parts; and the connections between are always moving/shifting. The deeper you go the deeper it gets sorta thing. Maybe the commune thing is a subconscious overreaction to crappy hierarchies, ones that are setup with greatly restrictive worldviews.
bwc113 1 year ago
@bwc113 Wilber was talking about holorchies. Hierarchies are an artificial structure imposed within the same holon. An example of a true holarchy would be me and the earth or my body's cells and me. With the holarchy each level is actually greater but encompasses the one below it. But social hierachies fail to encompass much of human intelligence, feeling and insight thus they are not a true holon.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat OK, what then? Do we continue to create these structures? Seems instinctive. With enough focus on awareness and flexibility in dealing with the ongoing shifting in reality, could a hierarchy at least WORK? I wonder if we require tribal groups simply because they're small enough to even begin to grasp the whole picture of interaction within and without. Are we even capable of dropping the whole idea and simple being with what is?
bwc113 1 year ago
@bwc113 Sure hierarchies work. Its simply that when they are not based on merit, the people at the top tend to be manipulative douche bags.
madscirat 1 year ago
im not disagreeing with you, you definitely know what your talking about. but the main essential reason most communes don't work are because of the people who want to join are joining for the wrong reasons. they have this vision in their heads of what they think its like and the person they want to be, the sad thing is they are wrong, they find out thats not at all who they are or what they want to do.
derekghgh 1 year ago
@derekghgh It is true that I did not join a commune bc/ I wanted to replace one set of overlords with another. I thought I was entering an egalitarian system and in my defense, these places do call themselves egalitarian. The fact that any attempt to make people equal is always forged on the back of some new sort of tyranny is something I hadn't yet realized.
madscirat 1 year ago
Comunes composed by 90% "service" labor and 10% of manufacturing... Of course it won't work. And to compare the standards of living in comunes compared to the standard of living in a nation state, it's like comparing primitive people with the corps of engineers.
Zamolxx 1 year ago
What you describe is a pyramid scheme. I don't see anything wrong with increasing rewards for people who do difficult jobs that others tend to avoid. There is a misconception that Marxists, socialists, and communists oppose such things in principle, as if that was the root of class divisions, exploitation, and oppression. I'd suggest reading Marx's "Critique of the Gotha Programme" which takes up these questions in detail, even though I know you're a free-market conservative libertarian.
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
@binhthanhvo A pyramid scheme? You are jumping to conclusions. Egalitarian communities don't set out to make money or pull in wealthy people. Most of their members are poor
Marxists, like all fascists, have at root some idea that they can make people better. Many do this by eliminating property, but that is not the essential delusion. The essential delusion is that the system you install to remove inequity won't create its own kind. This is in fact what happens.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat What I meant is that it's a pyramid scheme in that it only works if you recruit new people into it. That's how Madoff made off. I know communes aren't out to fleece people, I was making a comparison to their constant need for "fresh blood" to stay afloat.
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
Communes always fail because you can't have an island of socialism in a sea of capitalism. Furthermore, someone owning their own toothbrush, CD player, or whatever is not the root of class society. Private property is not THE problem; sadly, much of the socialist/Marxist left gets caught up in the question of private property and misses the importance of social relations. Lack of private property doesn't mean there is no exploitation. The feudal Catholic Church had no private property for ex.
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
//Communes always fail because you can't have an island of socialism in a sea of capitalism.//
Total bullshit. Communes actualy get tax rightoffs from the Feds so they have more advantage than private enterprise. No forces from the outside caused the communes I saw to stagnate rather than succeed. In fact they were quite independent from the outside. The reason they fail is bc/ they rely on altruism not the trade of equal value for equal value.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat They are still surrounded and shaped by capitalism, even with the tax right offs. One way or another, communes have to interact with the capitalist economy. Did your commune manufacture its own tools, mine its own minerals, grow all of its own food, chop down its own wood, etc. from scratch? And yes, no one can abolish the law of value - no Marxist with half a brain would argue with that. I still think you might want to read the book I mentioned above.
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
@binhthanhvo True but then by your logic any system that goes under is because of capitalism as if its simply the touch of death. And yet this is clearly not the case. Intelligent companies with motivated workforces and (bc/ of our corrupt gov.) companies with political pull both survive in the current model. So whats different with communes that makes them die? Exactly what I said, they attempt to sever the tie between work and profit (well that and they don't have much political pull either)
madscirat 1 year ago
@binhthanhvo I'm not to interested in Marx Ive seen how socialism plays out in reality and in history. As an empiricist I consider that the ultimate test of any philosophy regardless of its founder. This is the same reason I mistrust dogmatic religion, and the two major political parties. Each shows their true colors when they gain the upperhand and in each case it isn't pretty.
madscirat 1 year ago
Don't want to blow your bubble there but empiricism is bankrupt, the last 30 years or so show it crystal clear.
Zamolxx 1 year ago
@Zamolxx Oh goodie, I always wanted to live in Fantasia. Seriously though, explain what exactly makes empiricism bankrupt. Simply declaring something is not information for me or any rational being.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat My point about Marx is that you cannot found a commune based on Marx's principles because he was against communes! His entire political philosophy developed because he clashed so strongly with the socialists of his day, Saint Simon, Fourier, etc. all of whom favored founding communes. Engels wrote a book about it, "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific." If a commune is proof that Marxism doesn't work, then public utilities are proof that free-markets don't work.
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
@binhthanhvo Point taken. I was using socialism in the broader sense of the world. As I said I am not against any system just those that don't work and those that prevent us from determining what works. I suspect, based on my experience and reason that socialist systems will not work bc/ in a free confederacy the most productive will choose to live in states that do not tax success. I could be wrong and this is the reason I advocate politically diverse systems.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat Again, to me saying that communes are proof that Marxism doesn't work is like saying Enron/WorldCom/Lehman is proof that free-market capitalism doesn't work. If you can't make an anti-capitalist argument without resorting to cases involving some form of illegal activity that is the exception rather than the rule, your argument against capitalism is weak as all hell. lol
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
@binhthanhvo See my video on Minarchy. I explain there that systems need to exist so that they can fail. I saw egalitarianism fail without outside influence any different from any other organization. Therefore I know it fails. I suspect socialism and communism would fail bc/ they share the beliefs which I think made egalitarian communes fail. However, I support every system's right to exist so long as they obey those principles which assure such diversity.
madscirat 1 year ago
@madscirat I watched it and commented there as well. :)
binhthanhvo 1 year ago
@binhthanhvo Oh right, my bad.
madscirat 1 year ago