Margot Wallström on Newsnight (Treaty of Lisbon rejection)

[cubetheory]

so she's a manipulative rapist. and not even av very good one, at that. on behalf of sweden, sorry about this wretched spawn. good listener though!

[rmir2]

No means NO!

"The political leaders have invested so much political capital and time and energy to try to get a new machinery, to try to make the EU work better so offcourse they wil not give up easily they will try to find a way forward because we need to make it more democratic..."

First of all: the other word for not accepting the will of the people is dictatorship, second: how can anytging became democratic if you will not accept the will of the people.

Dictatorship and tyranny = EU!

[metrak]

Come to think of the quatation:

"If the people does not agree with their leaders, the leaders must simply remove their people..." or something like that

[AktiebolagetAB]

Stupid and a traitor. But still a milf.

[tsbejk2000]

She talk and talk and talk, and she have really nothing interesting to say. She doesnt listen, and avoid the questens the rapporter ask her

[Caydn]

This woman is a idiot she said she has asked UN peacekeepers to monitor and report daily on rapes and other sexual violence in the Congo how about your order then troops to protect the civilians instean you overpaid bitch.

[Soldier957]

haha there's nothing they CAN do. It will go THEIR way, because there is NO other way.

[zionite111]

This woman is very popular in Sweden. If they only knew the complete arrogance and true motives of the EU... its so sad.

[elecse]

Margot is just like her fellow comrades in the Swedish Socialdemocratic party. They never really give a toss what people think. If the people are against something they will just say that it´s because the people doesn´t really know their own best and then they go ahead with their plans. And still she´s propaply one of the best EU-politicians and that´s what´s really tragic!....

[svartekaptenen]

den där jävla Wallström, typisk sosse,

om folket röstar fel, åh låt dem rösta igen o igen o igen tills de röstar rätt, FY FAN!

[inkorrekt2010]

congratulations Ireland now we can start ship muslims "refugees" to you to!

[yourcrapp]

you know its not about if the treaty is god or bad...its about the eu politicians treats us like babys...and tell us what to do or whats the best 4 us!!!

we should never exept this!!!!!!

[rmir2]

yourcrapp, its about:

- creating a polite bureau without democratic control,

- creating a "president" and a "foreign minister" - not accepted by the people,

- stealing symbols of other organisations,

- giving power to commissionaires,

- enforcing the "rubel" on people,

- showing disrespect for people of any different opinion (think of how they treated Vaslac Klaus),

THESE ARE SOVJET METHODS - AND THAT IS WHAT THEIR PROJECT IS ABOUT.

[yourcrapp]

yeah i totally agree with you bro!

[francieszetecs]

vote no. yea to europe. no 2 lisbon

[Heteronymph]

"In a democracy you listen to the concerns".

Subtext: But you do not let voters DECIDE anything.

"But lets leave it to the leaders to discuss what to do in a situation like this".

Subtext: I do not value the opinion of citizens.

[kjelli]

if I raped a girl, then went to trial and said that the Irish voted no to the Lisbontreaty but the EU still forced them vote an second time and if that is raping their Democratic right and Vote, then me forcing myself on the girl even taught she said no is not a crime because I had a vote about it in my head, and decided to push it forward even taught she said no.

[Iliyena87]

Stupid *****, am I supposed to have been born in the same country as her?!

Damn, I'm ashamed by both her pronunciation and the fact that she still thinks of herself as a democratic person...

[chopperbana]

See the necklace she is wearing? its stars! look into the symbolism of a star, look at the europeon union flag! its in your face peeps wake up!!!

[1DX2020]

in a democracy...you except the result of the vote that you have put to the people. this is no democracy...this is infuriating...after the whole Irish debacle...if anyone can still not see what is going on here (the solidifying of european superstate) then they are a blind fool. the EU does not care what you say...YOU WILL BOW DOWN AND SAY YES!!. you have no choice/

[1957Rotu]

I would prefer listen to her than to Patricia McKenna. Just a personal preference, you understand. Her Swedish voice is calm and measured, without a scintilla of shrillness. Faced with a choice of Wallstrom or Caoimhin O'Caoileain as my leader in Europe, I would have to choose Wallstrom every time. Wallstrom is the kind of woman you would trust in an emergency.

[egalmannen]

did u not watch this video? shes not a democrat

[ime23me]

,,Scripted,,its all scripted..A good man once said,,you have eyes and you do not see

[ime23me]

Get a pretty calm girl..put her in front of an angry sharp man...and you have SHAKESPEARE..we are not PLUMS

[ConerTheStoner]

They always try to pull off this shit, as some dude below me said - NO means NO, no doesn't mean find a way to make us say yes - it means NO, so back the fuck off!

She consistently and repeatedly subverts attention away from any question even slightly related to democracy. Watch her facial language too - undeniably lying through her half closed, looking away/down eyes.

[oxfile]

Hmm...nice. We need a revolution, all politicians are idiots................well except Ron Paul.

Europeans, arm yourself, protect your freedom! This is gonna get nasty.

[EJLfilms]

And all the nationalist-parties are good

Its time for revenge

[muttamutta]

@oxfile Totally agree. A lot of politicians need to go but Ron Paul, Nigel Farage, Dennis Kucinic, and Alan Grayson are all decent.

[ProtectingDemocracy]

This is a brilliant video, showing the total hypocrisy of the EU, revealed through their comments on democracy one after the other - that the result of a democratic referendum should be ignored, to "improve democracy". Brilliant!

What first-class idiocy from Wallstrom.

[ccmaymd]

Am so glad we have a Second Amendment in the USA. Every time a government piece of shit turns out the light to go to bed, I want his last thought to be a contemplation on how best to order his official actions the next day to keep away night-riding committees of vigilance intent on hanging him from a tree.

[XrAiDeN]

Arrogant whore, fucking hell I'm so sick and tired of these EU fascists, NO = NO get that through your thick skulls.

[armindee]

FFS shot that bitch! She cant even answear the question! End the treaty! Democracy is overstimated! This treaty will end in one man controlling the hole EU!

[slug1822]

WE have our own dream and our own task, WE are with Europe but not of it, WE are linked but not combined, WE are interested but not absorbed and should european states man address us with the words that we used of old should i speak for thee to the king or the captian of the host we should reply "NAY SIR FOR WE DWELL AMOUGNST OUR OWN PEOPLE"

- Sir Winston Churchill

[Smulan45]

EU:s Propaganda Minister, Margot Wallström has spoken...

Good are Bad and Bad are Good.

Real democracy is wrong and dictatorship is right.

[mark1234me]

Goebbels: if we repeat the lie often enough, more people will believe it

Wallström: if we keep saying EU = democratic often enough, more people will believe it

[victor190779]

If you are in Germany, the only ones who work against this moronic treaty are the Linke.

For the first time in my life I will vote for that party when we vote.

Europe needs democracy - it does not need ladies like this (who, btw, gave herself a 3 million euros pension).

[Babystrompe]

well i must admit that i am a "fan" of the European union. But only a European union that is democratic. this is just bullshit and embarassing to watch. If the people says no. then the answer is no. not what you want it to be.

[olasvensson]

Margot Wallström are MONGO.

Hur korkad får man bli? Hon fattar INTE att länder ställer sig utanför EU.

[AdalDrottinn]

The EU is a Jewish controled empire.

[blueblue1891]

Wallström is undemocratic socialist scum.

Socialism should be forbidden, that is if we lived in a righteous world, unfortunately we do not, we live in a world run by the wicked and perverted, like Wallström.

[romanempire27bc]

she is a fascist who hates the people

[pauland74]

Margot says :"If we are serious about democracy I think we have to understand why the Irish people voted no. That must be sort of the first stage....."

I think it's becoming more and more evident that the Lissabon Treaty will crush democracy and bring us towards feodalism. It smells fascism!!

[VisibleTruth]

Hey! This new system: Their EU/NWO/OWG will make Adolf Hitler's regime look like Donald Duck.

Maggot is the incarnation of pure evil.

[VisibleTruth]

This si SO shocking!! did you people also know that there is a footnote in a footnote in the treaty:

which says that there is no death penalty, and then it has a footnote, which says, "except in the case of war, riots, upheaval"—then the death penalty is possible. Spread the word

[alilapointe1]

eu is a racist manipulatif sate

hope the recetion will go deeper i am loving it

imperialist crooks

[Kimz0r90]

I'm ashamed that Sweden is the place where that cunt was spawned. Anti-democratic whore!

[Dacadema]

They expect us to vote in the European Parliament election on candidates that all think exactly the same.

But they refuse to give us a choice on the real questions like the Lisbon Treaty.

[VisibleTruth]

Yeah, why didn't let us all vote, if they think they are working for a "democratic" Union.. what a joke.

Irelands NO, is an indicator of a NO in alot more places. In Denmark, against the constitution, the Bush Puppet, our ex Primeminister signed us off without a vote. They knew we would have said NO

[FrederikSOlesen]

If you still want to say "NO", vote N on the 7th of June - on Folkebevægelsen mod EU. They/we say "NO", too. :)

[FrederikSOlesen]

List N, Folkebevægelsen mod EU, do not approve of the EU and do try to convince the government that they should hold a referendum about the treaty.

So. On the 7th of June, vote N. :)

[VisibleTruth]

I will.. thanks. by the way, if you dont have the Consolidates Lisbon Treaty I can send it to you... this is the real Readable Treaty.. not the scam addenddum they passed without anyone reading or understanding it

[FrederikSOlesen]

Hm. I have the one published by Folketinget, with notes/"læsetips" from Folkebevægelsen. Also, I'm used to reading language like this, so it's not that hard to read it and understand how it's going to undermine the hope some of us still have for a free world...

[Dacadema]

this video sums up what is wrong with the EU

[VisibleTruth]

Bravo-- They are showing that EU is a gang of criminals imposing their control policestate agenda at any cost.

[progress200]

What a lying fucking bitch. Amazing how she can just sit there and say jackshit for the entire interview.

Shes worse than Sarah Palin. What a fucking joke.

[ccmaymd]

You can be sure that Sarah Palin would have an astronomically higher regard for freedom and democracy and the consent of the governed.

[Fleshious]

She can't stop lying.

[UKIPNorthWest]

Interesting video

[MonaStahlin]

Sweden Democrats 2009!

[throwthehammer]

disgusting totalitarian socialist bitch

[SvenskaLand]

She is a Socialistic bitch from Sweden, and is not too popular here.

The swedish prime-minister of Sweden signed the Lisbon Treaty and has now been charged for High treason by SDU (Swedish Democratic Youth).

The Lisbon-treaty is a crime against Swedens main constitution and he can face up to some years in prison for that, if he´s convicted.

[Laddre]

it seems that the only thing you can do and wich i dont want but will soon have to is to vote for nationalists. eu is destroying countries. they have 2 dussin self apointed leaders that meets in secret that can not be voted of. i will not stand for it. if it meens to take up arms so be it

[Scurck]

Before 1945 most European countries where not even democracies. To say that modern Germany would go to war against France if the EU did not exist is the sign of a moron.

All socialdemocrats are despised by most people, except socialists, criminals, islamic fascists, journalists and welfare junkies, IE the scum of society!

And most of the elderly who vote for them think they are the same party as they where 50 years ago.

The Swedish socialdemocrats inspired Hitler.

[Spenner56]

« To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history « .

( President Barack Obama, January 20,2009 ).

Vote EU sceptical in June's European elections to fight corruption and save true DEMOCRACY.

Good luck to the Irish in October !

P.S.

1.Why is the right to VOTE missing from the European Charter ?

2.Why has the death penalty been re-introduced for "civil upheaval" ?

[ssolbergj]

Lisbon would make the EU system more democratic.

[Spenner56]

Democratic ? The ONLY EU institution Europeans are "allowed" to vote for is a "parliament" with NO POWER TO LEGISLATE !

No "Government of the people,by the people,for the people" for us !

Lisbon also ignores the opinion of European AND Turkish citizens by insisting that Turkey (population 72 million) joins . The biggest,poorest member of the EU will have more votes than any other EU state.

Only 3% is to be found in Europe. Perhaps the un-elected Commission don't "do" geography.

[Gogaligyx]

Shame on you Margot, you let your country down.

Love Europe - Hate The EU

[Spenner56]

What sort of EU needs III Reich laws like these ?

Convention for Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms ( Treaty of Rome ).

Article 15. Derogation ( i.e. EXCEPTION ) in time of emergency.

Paragraph 2. No derogation from Article 2 ( Right to life ) EXCEPT in respect of deaths resulting from lawful acts of war, or from Articles 3 ( Torture ),4 (Slavery and Forced Labour) and 7 ( No Punishment Without Law ), shall be made under this provision.

Google : magnacartaplus to check !

[ssolbergj]

you are lying.

[Spenner56]

NOT ALL of these articles apply anymore though the "right" to shoot citizens dead has been retained from the Treaty of Rome.

It should be noted that the influence of this treaty was very important to the "founding fathers" (as they like to be known) of the EU.

Democrats should ask themselves how article 15 could have possibly been included, so shortly after a war to end such things. There again,....it's not possible to be a democrat and be in favour of EU "top down" democracy.

[ssolbergj]

"the "right" to shoot citizens dead"?

You are lying.

[Spenner56]

European Charter of Fundamental Rights. Footnotes : (a) Article 2(2) of the ECHR: Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this Article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary :

(a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;

(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest or to prevent the escape of a person lawfully detained;

(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.

[futuramark]

(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection. So theyre say you can go and protest but then we can kill you hehe.

[Spenner56]

No, I am not lying ! (a) Article 2(2) of the ECHR: Deprivation of life shall not be regarded as inflicted in contravention of this Article when it results from the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary :

(a) in defence of any person from unlawful violence;

(b) in order to effect a lawful arrest etc.

(c) in action lawfully taken for the purpose of quelling a riot or insurrection.

Didn't Ghandi lead a ( peaceful ) insurrection in India ?

[Jocke1776]

I'm a Swede who would like to extend a "thank you" to the Irish people for voting "no". Keep lowering taxes Ireland! That will force our leaders to do it as well. Down with the stupid and immoral "European Social Model" and embrace freedom and capitalism. Capitalism (i.e. freedom) was invented in Europe, let's embrace it once again. Not because it was invented here but because it's moral and good (universally good for all mankind).

[oliwish]

I'm yet another awfully ashamed swede...

[hermannr]

At least her party was kicked out of power in the 2006 elections in Sweden, but apparently the swedish administration cannot fire her and replace her until her term is up. (2009??)

Can she look at herself in a mirror?

[Gevalum]

Well, it's naive to believe that the alliance's representative will be any better. If we can't trust the left to stand up for our rights, why would we be able to trust the right who are actually lobbying to speed up the process?

[bamsepoll]

Im a swede, and im ashamed aswell. People are never aloud to take part in big questions. Sure, we can choose what political party that are going to represent us every forth year, but the problem is that they all the same when they get elected.

And i think we also got a taste of the european "democracy" now.

[waffleday]

I'm not Irish, but I'm proud of the Irish.

[englishoap]

So there you are, just a few people at the top making slaves of the rest of us. You are nothing to them!

[webaluba]

what a fucking cunt she is

[mmtot]

Oh yeah we were not allowed a referendum on the treaty.

[mmtot]

She is probably a bohemian grove goer.

[rmir2]

Margot Wallström is nothing but a dictator. If people in EU are suppressed by a dictator or a dictatorship, then they have the right to take ANY step to defend themselves and get rid of the dictators. If there are no rules any more, then there are no rules.

Consider the possible consequences just for a moment.

[DanielJanzon]

Her arrogance is bordering on the infinite. She has absolutely no democratic ideal at all. "In a democracy you listen to the concerns..." NO!! Please! In a dictatorship you listen to the concerns in order to keep things "stable", like in China. In a democracy you listen to the voters. The government execute the voters' decision.

[Falsare]

jag hatar dig

[TerraModulo]

My god, she's really something, isn't she?

As others have said: I am a bit ashamed to be swedish after watching this...

[kennylex]

I'm not a Swed, I'm not a Swed, I'm not a Swed, I'm not a Swed, I wish I not was a Swed, I'm not a Swed, I'm not a Swed.

[Hoglund]

You're right: you're a Swede.

[clarkcolt45]

EU is not democratic at all.. that's why they're doing things like this all the time to remove the democracy step by step.

[stiLLa2000]

my girlfriend said: dictator bitch

[Usingthisfornow]

As the last person wrote : I am ashamed to be a swedish person.

[cfggfbdfgcxffcx]

As a Swede, I'm ashamed.

[trombletromble]

Wallstrom is chocked to hear critical questions, because in Sweden all mass media is state financed and state regulated and they never critice any politician. "Demnocrazy" is in Sweden defined as everything that the commanding politicians command. Exaclty as it was in the DDR.

[clarkcolt45]

That's true. I'm Swedish.

[trombletromble]

margot Walsltrom has no education, after elementary school. I don't mind that since I now intelligent and capable persons w/o education too!

But she also never had a job...

The majority of the ministers and party leaders in Sweden hav neither a university degree nor had they ever any kind of job. Most of them were born politicians because their parents were powerful politicians.

[jolt80]

Wallstöm is a disgrace, I'm a little ashamed that I'm swedish when I see this.

[hubaso]

This is what makes me so upset with the european union. It is totally undemocratic and just grows and grows without doing anything good.

IT really needs to be remade completely.

[Lavklumpen]

If you vote yes, you are for it. No questions asked.

If you vote no, then you must have done something wrong, you must have been misinformed. Why else would you vote no to a constitution which would make the EU more "democratic"?

Politicians can't face failure, it seems. If they try to impose an impopular rule, it's not their plan that is wrong, no, it's wrong with the people.

[ssolbergj]

Voters' concerns are being addressed. For example, all member states will retain a commissioner, a major concern in the Irish referendum.

[pengers11]

You don't have a choice. Nobody does. The EU is very sinister.

[ssolbergj]

The European Council is the body that creates the treaties. The European Council are national heads of state, not an evil EU alien from Brussels. Vote against your own national government, don't blame "brussels".

[Zukhramm]

No she shouldn't, we don't want her.

[mwakangu]

Margot evades the question repeatedly, she is quite an easy target though. If any "tough" journalist decided to be a little harsher, he/she would knock the stuffing out of her easily.

[janmilld]

Being av good democrat is being av good therapist. Dissenters are mentally ill. They need treatment. Therapy. Margot can provide that.

[henzoni]

margot can rub my back anytime....!!!!

[Db7b5]

sexist.

[Db7b5]

henzoni

[henzoni]

get a life..........

[pipewatcher]

America may be a young nation, but we fought a Civil War 150 years ago over the same federalistic principles that "Europe" as a "nation" is only now starting to fuss about. As a citizen of a nation with a 250 year-old tradition of "democracy", let me be the first to say,"Welcome to my world!"And, as my friend used to say while speeding madly through Manhattan during rush hour used to say-"Nobody f#@!k up!!"

[yours2handle]

Democrazy my ass. Smash the Elite. No means no!

[ssolbergj]

Aren't the factual concerns of the Irish people interesting?

[olivedrag]

Good old Gavin Esler - unfortunately he was talking to a brick wall - typical of the new self-proclaimed 'EU Elite' who despise anyone who does not belong to their ranks

[Greg260146]

To understand the EU why not watch youtubeDOTcom / watch?v=xnMtc_QJ4-E it will help you understand the aims of the EU & those who are the minority pro group who welcome corruption, greed, centralisation and self enrichment. It makes it entirely understandable why Politicians are in favour & out of step with the peoples where France, Holland & Ireland VOTED NO to the Constitution now renamed Lisbon Treaty & note EU Commissioners have less democratic mandate than Mugabe NO ONE EVER voted for them!

[Greg260146]

It is clear whenever one hears Maggot Walstrom she is either mad, utterly stupid or just evil. Just what part of NO do these arrogant, self interested, corrupt & dishonest people not understand. Did you not

"We must as your leaders.." She does not even understand just how

loathed they are NOT leaders but unelected REPRESENTATIVES. These

Bast*rds in their self important greed are moving us step by step to

famine, war and 200,000,000 deaths in persuit of their personal

ambitions EVIL UNION!

[rmir2]

Dear Margot, - drop the EU-commision - drop the EU-parlament - drop the EU-president - drop the EU-foreign minister - drop the flag - drop the hymn - drop the EURO - drop the EU funding system - drop the EU militairy organisation - let every country implement common laws or decicions so the fit best the conditions and traditions of that country INSTEAD of common laws. IT IS THAT EASY

[evilmoif]

The EU is a federal European superstate in sheeps clothing.

The problem is not with the minority in Ireland who voted no.

The problem is with the unelected minority in Bruxelles who keep saying yes despite losing referenda after referenda.

Give me my country back!!!

[victor190779]

Gavin Esler had a great question. A pity he did not push it until he had an answer. I am sick and tired of these talking points - none of these morons answer questions anymore.

[EUamerican]

"Democracy" is not just about referendums "only." Those Member states that ratified the treaty through their parliaments did so in a fashion that is acceptable in Western democratic practice!

There are various ways that the perception of "democratic deficit" can be addressed by other means other than referendums - which would be chaos and degenerate into crackpot buffoonery!

[indianadave5]

Parliamentary ratification could be democratic, but not to override a referendum defeat.

Referendums were already held, and lost, on the EU Constitution, and the Treaty of Lisbon contains exactly the same defeated proposals, as admitted by ex-French president Giscard d'Estaing, a supporter of the treaty ("les outils sont exactement les mêmes. Seul l'ordre a été changé").

He also said, "public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals we dare not present to them directly".

[ssolbergj]

The Luxembourgian and Spanish people voted in favour of the Constitution in their referendums.

Giscard d'Estaing has said that the quote you wrote there has been taken out of context and misused.

[Greg260146]

EUamerican The EU has less democratic mandate than Robert Mugabe - all that has happened in Zim. is his mandate has run out - the EU NEVER had one. No one voted for it and not a sigle Commissar was voted onto the Politbureau. Further it is time you woke up and accepted this outdated form of centralised supra national state forced on unwilling people by greedy self serving politicians & their parasites leads to war.

The VOTE WAS NO read the treaty & rule of law states it is DEAD - it stated that

[RobinDropping]

pfffft!

[EUamerican]

This fellow is a FIRST CLASS ASSHOLE and this is not a way to treat a lady like Mrs. Wallstrom.

Good - good on with the Lisbon Treaty! The truth is that Europe not only needs the Lisbon Treaty, but the world needs the Lisbon Treaty - and the European values that would be spread...The world needs Europe!

[victor190779]

That is what Hitler said.

[GrumpyOldTroll]

What is outrageous is not Mr Esler's supposedly improper way of treating Mrs Wallström, it is her evasion of the question which he asks several times. The woman cannot even comprehend the notion "kill the Treaty"!

The EU is nought but a bureaucratic behemoth and an ideological hydra.

[indianadave5]

I love Europe but I don't think we need a treaty that increases federal power whilst merely tinkering round the edges of the gigantic democratic hole we suffer.

Imagine if there was no vote for the American president, and congress had no legislative powers other than a limited veto.

And don't get me started about the European Court of Justice, which bends and twists statutory language far more than the US Supreme Court would dare, in order to impose its pro-federalist viewpoint.

[RobinDropping]

pffft!

[sufaarhus]

Is she stupid? What part of "the Irish voted no", does she not get??

[angel2901]

By the way, whats his name?

[GrumpyOldTroll]

The journalist is Gavin Esler.

[angel2901]

I really admire the journalist here! In Germany NO journalist ever asked those questions! On the contrary: They applauded that EU was fooling the people and call the failed constitution now Lisbon Treaty. You know why? The EU is an project of elites. Its pure ideology. The ideology that some visionary elites has to go forward and the rest should follow to their "own good". And the journalists thinking that there are part of this elites.

[lavebroch]

This is a fantastic interview! It really shows how EU cannot understand that the problem is the Lisbon Treaty. When will they learn that people do not want United States of Europe. We want a cooperation between the nations!

[ssolbergj]

53% of irish people voted against lisbon.

40% of those who voted no did so because they didn't know what Lisbon is.

Ireland represents less than 1% of the EU's population.

All 27 member states but the Czech Republic and Ireland have ratified Lisbon.

Brussels isn't controlling the EU. National, elected, political leaders do.

Why would Lisbon create a "United States of Europe"? It wouldn't.

[gumbor08]

Yes 27 member states ratified--without asking their citizens. It's apparent that it would have been rejected, if they did ask them (viz., the Dutch and French referenda). EU is aiming for common market policy (see article 188c), common international policy, etc. With Lisbon each and every state in the EU is losing the freedom of deciding on these matters on its own; they are ceasing to be independent states. How would that not be "United States of Europe"?

[ssolbergj]

You should respect the sovereignty of other countries, including their respective constitutional rights to choose how to ratify international treaties.

I know you like to be selective, but Spain and Luxembourg both had referendums, with YES results. In the 5 referendums (Ireland, Spain, Luxembourg, Netherlands) on the Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty, there were more people voting Yes then there were No votes.

[gumbor08]

All these countries (Fr, Lx, Netherl., Sp) have decided in the parliament without a referendum. Moreover the French and the Dutch has killed the EU constitution in '05. I think you are confusing the EU constitution referenda and Lisbon treaty. The ratification of the EU constitution was stopped because of the Dutch and French no. That is why the Lisbon Treaty is called a "treaty" so it doesn't require referenda. The only country is Ir because they have a clause about this in their constitution.

[ssolbergj]

I know what the situation is.

You should not disrespect how sovereign countries have decided to ratified a treaty. It happens to be their constitutional right to choose parliamentary ratification if they wish to do so.

Sarkozy DID publicly say that Lisbon would be ratified in parliament BEFORE his election. The fact that there were no referendum on Lisbon in France wasn't because the text isn't branded a "constitution", it was because the national assebly didn't choose to hold a referendum.

[gumbor08]

There was a general consensus that a constitutional treaty should be ratified by referenda. When it became obvious that there's no way of getting an unanimous YES, they needed to step away from this consensus. Taking away the word "constitution" was part of that step. I have respect for sovereign countries but I do not have respect for governments that don't stage referenda because they know that the result would be inconvenient.

This includes my own (Czech ) government

[ssolbergj]

What consensus are you talking about? Most countries didn't plan to hold referendums, and most EU member states have no tradition of plebiscites.

There were vital differences between the Constitution and Lisbon. See the comparison in the English wiki article on Lisbon.

[indianadave5]

In the EU, only the Commission can initiate new laws. But the Commission is not elected; it is appointed by national governments, which themselves are one step removed from direct elections.

This is so indirect that the pressures on the Commission are far removed from voters' wishes. For the electorate, trying to vote to influence the Commission is like using a knife with two hinges in the handle.

The Commission is institutionally deaf to voters; hence Ms Wallström's inability to answer.