The Black Page #2 - Frank Zappa at Palladium New York

[CathML44]

So much...

[MRCJCOLLINS]

I / WE MISS FRANK.....

[merckzur]

i haven't heard this in 20 years and it is sooooo good!

[m11gtr]

NO SOLO?!

[richedie]

Sorry man, for me it is just like most jazz, in one ear and out the other.

[MrGeorgios2020]

@richedie Amen brother. It has no melody whatsoever!!!

[jaretthale78]

@MrGeorgios2020 it takes talent to make jazz, and it takes talent to listen to it.

[Jay435]

@MrGeorgios2020 You're kidding of course.

[Kitsua]

@MrGeorgios2020 The entire thing is melody! One long, intricately composed, rhythmically dense, harmonically rich melody that is surprisingly memorable. If you mean that it doesn't have a short, simple pop tune that's designed to be over in 12 bars then yeah, but what the hell are you doing watching a Zappa video?

[Blurillaz]

As much as I love Zappa's work, I can't stand that Steve Vai...

[darkalleyheroes]

They have the full recording on iTunes now!

[G7flat5]

Yea, great! Can you put Franks solo back in?

[richedie]

Elevator music on crack! That is the problem with Zappa's music....as masterful as he was, his music is in one ear and out the other. No hooks.....just rambling.

[braindamagehurts44]

@richedie it's definitely not rambling, its meticulously crafted and rehearsed, but i feel the same, theres just so much going on it just washes over me

[estvan56]

@richedie ?????????



[FZmustacheFZ]

@richedie If you can't find a hook in this, it's your own fault. Plenty of other people, including myself and some of my friends, all can. I hum this song all the time. Note for note. It's incredibly catchy.

[Tengent]

The constant scratchy funk guitar is hilarious.

[FZmustacheFZ]

@Tengent Reggae, not funk

[m11gtr]

Why was FZ's guitar solo edited out?

[41jarse]

Can you imagine kids today listening to this kind of music? This period will probably never happen again anywhere in the universe! Thank you, Frank, for challenging the world with your artistic vision..

[Skandalos]

Totally bites with the reggea rhythm. Like mixing chili with strawberries.

[HaakonFBS]

This is great... Im 13 and I really like zappa's music. I play some of his songs on guitar. Steve Vai nails this song !

[dzdaas]

@HaakonFBS fuck you fag

[Clutnuckle]

@dzdaas dont yell at the children please

[gosiman]

Is that Steve Vai?

[zemoraes000]

@gosiman yes!

[MrReburn555]

@gosiman yep

[rodrigozamo]

@gosiman this is where he became famous at, the moven on to roth's band and then into his wonderful solo career

[BopsStudios]

All I can say to the negative comments, "you play it live", and see what happens lol

[ahioud]

the reggae version with Wackerman is not as good as the original with Bozzio

[TreyRoque]

Wow. Zappa's beardy part of his imperial had shrunk somewhat... Makes him look uber-80s.

But, seriously, this line up had squat of the pizzaz of his 60s/ 70s line ups. Maybe it was the decade - when almost everything sounded flat as a witch's tit.

[killingseason777]

My guitar teacher gave me the music to this today. I promptly shit my pants

[sweetfly66]

hhddhheeh d 

[Bigswifty75]

yeah, wackerman, this is post bozzio

[linkinparklyrics12]

my friend can play some of this song on guitar

[JazzZappa59]

Jazz is not dead it just smells funny...F.Z.

[nspcvdgg]

pure class

[OrdinaryRadical117]

This is shite half of you are posers

[crommo]

It's a shame the sax player bails at 2:07 heh heh

[pooolet]

WHERE IS THE SOLO

[darthjoey13]

@pooolet The solo is the Black Page 1. This is #2.

[danivi3]

ciao leleto mio ti voglio tanto bene e mi dispiace tanto andare via...mi tieni con te?

[Guitareben]

yay steve vai!!!! ooh this is cool and good music to - i must get into zappa a bit. anyone now any good songs of his? :D

[Muzgab]

Try 'Trouble every day' & 'Dumb all over' two of my favourites!

[Debonardo]

The drummer Chad Wackerman is a sick bitch.

[postsux08]

just gives me a big hard on

[MrSimontheawesome]

1:20 is so funny. awesome stuff

[ofudgems]

@MrSimontheawesome I couldn't agree with you more, his facial expression is classic! I wish I knew what Frank was hearing because what he heard most people still have yet to hear.

[nickhirst]

not as early as 77/78, probably '81 or '82 judging by the line-up

[tall32guy]

@nickhirst Yeah this particular performance was 1981.

[daddywhetz]

really not my style of music

[fadethetrade]

Well thats 1 of about 25 styles zappa did.What's your love,heavymetal?he did it,jazz? that to,rock and roll,that also.Let me know what style of music you like and I'll send something over thats not too difficult for you to groove to.

[daddywhetz]

Hard Rock men, that's my stuff, I love that music

[panhead1219]

This same line up in RENO!

Greatest Concert EVER

[TOWLIBAN32123]

thats fuckin west

[cranie4]

and for those not in the know..yes, Frank was conducting for real and every note mattered :)

[doubts]

A lot of practice and a whole lot of talent.

Really like chad wackerman on this.

[grouchomagic]

I have been drumming for over 54 years, and I cried tears watching this. Damn, I miss Frank.

[larkydozer]

What's even more insane is that they're doing it reggae.

[pazzensutra]

Man, Zappa isn't even conducting during 1:16-1:19. These guys are sick! So great. Are the days of mind blowing musicians gone forever?

[morten4u]

@pazzensutra:

Actually, I think there's is many insanely brilliant musicians out there today, but they rarely get to showcase their brilliance through tunes as complex as this.

[pazzensutra]

This is the same concert featured on the Dub Room Special, and it pisses me off that this song isn't on there. And I agree that Weather Report gets a good run for their money on this one. Zappa's bands were always white hot.

[dwilmer7]

marimba players ate my gf's baby!!!!!!!!!

[Guns8000]

that is amazing how do you write something like that for all the instruments? frank zappa is genious and god

[williamx747]

first math-rock song?

love you zappa!!!

[alucard1083]

YEAH!!! I lov ethis band all his bands are badass.

[goozmon42]

Heh...I love Vai's "bleh" at 1:18.

[ME2LLICA]

black page no. 2 reggae... awesome

[bowelrock]

I miss RUTH!!! this guys sucks

[Psycho9263]

Ruth Underwood is awesome!

[DarthKazi]

Ed Man sucks? Nobody who ever played for Zappa sucked. It wasn't allowed.

You just like Ruth better because she has tits...

[JonP1961]

@DarthKazi

LOL!!!

Great tune. Great lineup, too.

Tommy Mars was one of my faves. Remember seeing him in the lineup that had Bozzio and Hearns ('78? '79? little bit of a blur ;).

They went into this fusion thang that blew my head clean off... while Frank sat on a stool, sipped some coffee out of a thermos, smoked a cig, all while they were in complex meters, just absolutely killer grooves.

Frank casually finishes his 'break', gets up, dons the guitar again, & just RIPS into a mad solo...

[fadethetrade]

77 to early 78 baby snakes tour.

[HelenusMaximusIII]

@DarthKazi Ed Mann has a bit of boobage too

[DarthKazi]

@HelenusMaximusIII LOL!

[Zappafan1980]

@DarthKazi

Thats Right Ed Mann was one of the longest Zappa Band Members ever from 1978 to 1988

Why would Frank keep him that long if he wasnt good ?

I consider Ruth and Ed equal when i comes to skill Level

[FZmustacheFZ]

@Zappafan1980 Actually, Ed began working with Frank as early as 1976! :)

[2c26]

@DarthKazi Yup but that's of a hell of an argument

[BmGdrums]

I think thats Ed Mann.

[ME2LLICA]

ed mann is great this dude is a fucking idiot.

however, i guess he is not better than ruth

[motorwawt]

Are you guys really comaring Marimba players?

[JBLanteigne]

Reminds me of some Weather Report.

[DarthKazi]

Weather Report never did anything even a fraction as interesting or cool as this... except maybe Teen Town and that was played mostly by Jaco...

[robzecc]

@DarthKazi  Oh come on! it's just a different style

[DarthKazi]

@robzecc Yeah, this is true. I need to quit taking the bait from trolls. I like both groups a lot. I just happen to like Zappa a lot more.

[robzecc]

@DarthKazi F.Z. was pure genius! Btw I'm going to listen to Wayne Shorter live tomorrow!

[JanCarlo88]

at. 1:04 this is sick !

[jnm92]

is there a studio version of this song?

[jimmypop33]

Whoa, what the hell happenned to the guitar solo??? It's just been lopped off! This is possibly my favorite FZ solo of all time...it can be found on "As An Am" from the "Beat the Boots" collection.

Dude, where did you get this??? I would desperately like to know how to obtain a copy of this!!!

[dazamaru]

at the 0;44 mark...you can see Steve Vai literally wincing at the errors...

[dazamaru]

in my opinion....this version sucks....i mean its Zappa...but it just seems a little haphazard...the reggae thing and all....

no..im not gonna compare my musical abilities to Zappa....

im just saying in my opinion, this sucks...i like the Zappa in NY version better.

[zappamannn]

I would humbly beg to differ. Zappa was obsessed with taking a bizarre, almost impossible passage, and putting it to a reggae beat, somehow making it even more impossible. I think it's fucking hilarious. That's just my two cents.

[worriedaboutlife]

the really fast notes are at 2:08 - tell me that all those notes are accurately played - plus don't you think it's cute that the video cuts away from zappa at this point conducting the beats? It ain't just bankers who play magic tricks with the truth

[worriedaboutlife]

I personally think it's ironic of zappa to become so anal about the precision with which his music was made seeing as he played arround with the form of his musical pieces ad nauseum

[worriedaboutlife]

btw, me and a friend used to try and play this for fun and what we did was just slow down phrases and extend the beats to get the phrase's shape at least right - on the baby snakes cd they do the same sort of thing and if you listen reall closely I think you find that they're are a couple of bars not in 4/4 with missing beats -

[worriedaboutlife]

1. because zappa will have fucked arround with the precision timings anyway and 2. when the notes are that fast you can't even be sure that the players hit them at the right speed - or even the right notes - it's seems to me in most of the recordinghs that I have heard most of the really fast zappa stuff is only possible (to be played) - reliably - on keyboard instruments - this is obviously a really good reason why the zappas could stop being assholes and release lead sheet scores

[worriedaboutlife]

I meant on C because it's the chord under the really fast notes - ie. the 11ths - they're are notated as 11ths on my official Black page 1 score (okay the chord is C2 ie. C,D,G) basically after the bit it goes a,g,f#,a,d - the end of this phrase before end figure - btw the end figure notes are all 11ths to but half the time of the really fast notes (I think) btw, the best way to transcrive this would be to slow ity down a lot for 2 reasons

[johnlockejr]

This is a really cool version of this song, with the back beat going on. Thanks for sharing.

[worriedaboutlife]

the 11ths on C - who can ever play that right?

[juanbarros88]

you mean the 4ths like C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab_Db-etc... or the chords

[worriedaboutlife]

the tuplets ie. 11 notes in the time of 1 beat (or 2 beats or whatever) - I only know this because many years ago I bourght the score to the black page no. 1 from munchin music - who I am now pissed with because they won't produce simply scores to any of this - In my opinion there's maths and there's music and if you want to represent everything that happens in a organic sounding piece of music such as this down to the nth degree you're wasting you're time as a musician - become a scientist

[juanbarros88]

you mean lie quintuplets, odd groupings? 7,9,11.... I can jsut play quintuplets(played in two beats) and eight note quintuplets(played in one beat). I thought you were talking about harmony. and why on C? sounds like harmony talk

[cowsgomoouk]

well, his bands never did... the tempo always seemed to sag slightly on the 11's... the 88 band drop about 15bpm on the MAJNH version at that point :) still, hearing musicians clinging on for dear life and even getting close is still more fun than hearing a synclavier playing it millisecond-perfect

[worriedaboutlife]

or transcribing music by machine

[Crzygtrgod3]

I like the reggae feel that this version has. i lol'd a bit. I love frank about has much as one heterosexual male can love another heterosexual male.

[dazamaru]

ugh,,,,this is absolutely the sloppiest version of the Black Page outside Zappa does Zappa.....lol

i could see Frank wincing at the many timing errors...

not a good night for this truly talented band, but still superior to most of the bands on the market.

I always wondered what the 70-74 band with Duke, Ruth, and the Fowlers could do with this piece.

[chunga666]

Don't know about you mate, but when I saw ZplaysZ it was fantastic, including the black page !

[CH3MIS7RY]

Why argue with someone that thinks that Black Page on ZPZ was sloppy? It was as clean as it could ever be. Next thing, he'll tell you that he can drum it cleaner than Bozzio or something. FAIL.

[eskimoposh]

i dunno..nail it like everything else that was put in front of them?

[napomania]

sorry?in what points can you here timing errors? I can't hear nothing about these..

[SteveSparx]

like fabric(except 4 cut)

[excesodestyle]

awesome

[kahuna390]

its funny as so many vai songs are influenced by these types of zappa moments.

[casaroli]

@modestvermin995 only rhythmically?

[modestvermin995]

Hell no. I could blame the understatement on the fact that my comment is pretty old at this point, but I think I'll just man up and say I can appreciate the melody a lot more than I can the rhythm. I'm not a percussionist or even a rhythm buff so when I first heard this that was probably what baffled me. After knowing the piece for over a year now, I gotta say it's one of the best melodies I've heard, let alone one of Zappa's best.

[xxxslayerxxx666]

@modestvermin995 everythingly, this is incredible.

[CowbellNinja]

The conducting at 1:03 is awesome.

[chrismouz]

Franck Zappa,Terry Bozzio,Chad Wackerman,Christian Vander, Jannick Top, Klauss Blasquiz !! Ce sont les Miles Davis Français, la grande classe, quoi!!

Dans 30 ans, tout le monde écoutera cette musique et parlera Kobaien.

Il sera alors temps, pour eux d'être âgés et moi aussi, vers 2040!

Tans pis, cest la vie, le temps qui passe, non ?

Bravo à eux et Merci

A vie, à mort et après.

Christophe Mouz

[youvebeenthunderstru]

lol, what an insane line up. Vai, Bobby Martin, Wackerman, not to mention Ray White too. Too much talent on stage at one time.

[JohnnyTod]

Thats the general idea of Frank Zappa though. Nothing but the best.

[looshkin66]

no bozzio?

[zemoraes000]

No. Chad Wackerman.

[afterdave73]

How fucking good is that band!

[m11gtr]

No FZ solo? So sad. Why edit it out?

[pavelromul]

hi there. I don't know if u remove or not "Alien Orifice" (if not, I apologize for disturbing u). But if it is u, PLEASE REPOST IT! I love this piece and I like the performance from 1981.

If u can't repost it for some reason, please send me a link or something to record it (for home listening only). Thx. All the best

[zemoraes000]

It' wasn't me. Anyway, if you find it I'd be glad if you let me know this video too...

[barkingpumpkin90]

Raggae version lol.

[RT7]

LOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[sapakiara]

what a nose!

[Rhaaboudin]

@sapakiara

enfin un émerveillement fédérateur! merci sincèrement, Sapakiara. à chacun ses versions, ses likes, ses dislikes, ses sentiments d'impuissances devant les onzolets de la mort, ses suspicions de math music, ses inquiétudes sur la triple croche manquante qui défigure l'oeuvre, sur "que reste-t-il aux jheun'z", sur "c'était mieux avant" sur "Ed Mann sucks" (better suck me). l'organe nasal du Maître restera le pur défi, le schnorkel propulsé dans l'anus du temps; Zyva, le Zappa!

[sinisterfw]

this is a great version. Good drumming, only the best of the best musicians

[kirkmach32]

Chad's overall appearance is kinda scaring me a little, but he jams this

[zyxon]

Frank's conducting was the killer.

[kirkmach32]

The conducting is great. Love the paused hand that suddenly flips down. Sooooo Zappa.

[boogster123321]

i love this version. it almost sounds like a regae version.

[TadRapidly]

almost? Zappa would goof with reggae-beat alternatives all the time. :-)

[ojfree32]

thats the highly slept on bobby martin playin sax...he does look exactly like branson though lol

[show1law]

scaring,,haha

He of this time looks like an android or a robot.

[kirkmach32]

Great stuff

But Chad's hair is scaring me

[syafii]

I didn't know Richard Branson used to play sax for Zappa.

[icedhermy]

there's probably a lot we dont know about branson.

[IanM1984]

Watching Zappa conduct shows how much a musical genius he was.

[nutell0]

unlucky is cutted :( it miss to me the guitar solo in the middle :-((

[kevycanavan]

Bobby Mart-an

[salblomo]

I like the way the rhythm section (drums and bass) are locked into a one drop reggae feel and the rest of the players are moving in straight time. Zappa had some mind!

[kirkmach32]

Seeing Zappa conducting again made me very happy. I sure do miss that crazy guy.

[kwikkash2]

that remainds me a lot of dodecaphonic music (i dont know if its the right term in english, but im talking about music that has as a scale all the notes and their #'s and b's.)

[lithiumdeuteride]

"Chromatic" is the word you're looking for.

[kwikkash2]

thx ;)

[Hidrotic]

Dodecaphonic, which means twelve tone, is a style of atonal music that was originally developed by Schonberg. In it, a tone row is used which must usually be used in the same order each time. Frank Zappa's music is not dodecaphonic in that sense. It isn't atonal - just complicated...

[DougYfunnie]

Not trying to argue or anything..i just think it's funny that like EVERYONE attributes "atonal" music to Schonberg, when Schonberg himself wrote extensively about the word "Atonal" being a completely incorrect word to describe the twelve-tone technique. to paraphrase him, "atonal" would suggest a complete abandonment of the system of everything going back to a fundamental tone..but yet, even in supposed "atonal" works the listener's ear cannot help but create it's own sort of "fundamental tone"

[DougYfunnie]

and AGAIn I stress that I am just paraphrasing...that's only the tip of the iceberg of what he gets into. if you're interested you should read his books

[Hidrotic]

I would argue that his system was an attempt to escape tonality. Yes?! Tone rows are set up in place of traditional (to that point) tonality. Don't get me wrong - I like Schonberg's music. I think there should be atonal music.

Another question comes to mind - is a composer the person most able to assess her/his own music?

You're right, I should read his books. I'll go and do it right after I leave Youtube. gotta go...

[GreggaryPeccary]

Just a technicality. All composers somehow have problems with terms attributed to them. Debussy detested the word "impressionism", but it doesn't matter, people will always remember him as an impressionistic composer. So will Schoenberg be remembered as "atonal", since it's the perfect description. There is no "fundamental tone". It's constantly negated

[DougYfunnie]

i see what you're saying. trust the tale not the teller. fair enough

[GreggaryPeccary]

This isn't atonal in the least. It has alot of notes, but they're always scale notes related to the root, in this case being lydian in a few different keys

[Farksisten]

Meh, no guitar solo = no win. :/

[Kohntarkosz]

Ya know what really drives me nuts? They apparently filmed both of the Halloween 81 shows. The late show was the one MTV famously broadcast live (along with what Nina Blackwood rates as the worst interview she ever had to do) during their first few months of existence.

There's now a DVD out called The Torture Never Stops, which has a compilation of both shows, and various bits and pieces are on The Dub Room Special. I wish they had just released both shows in their entirety.

[firstbooob]

WOW...

[YaYoGeek]

Yes !!! A live Black Page without Zappa's egocentric solo !!!

Luv it

[pcpiratepete]

If you really Love this song with out the Zappa solo... May I suggest that you watch...ZAPPA's Universe...Video.. where Mike Kennealy plays the part just devine...Trust me... It is the best version true to its maker.

Many Happy Returns

[juanbarros88]

Egocentric Solo? Shut Up

[Shaktidej]

Zappa did not think of them as Solos but rather as Air Sculptures which seems an adequate way to qualify them.... I love Zappa's solos, especially Drowning Witch and Black Napkins

[KAiserSchlacht]

To me the best solo of Zappa is in "Son of Orange County" & "Trouble Every Day".

The best solo I´ve ever heard.

[Shaktidej]

Then you should try these 3 ones :

The Evil Prince ( YCDTOSA Vol 4 )

Drowning Witch ( YCDTOSA Vol 3 )

Black Napkins ( YCDTOSA Vol 6 )

These are my favourites because they truly are "air sculptures" as Zappa defined them.

[Peruanas0]

GRrrrrr

grrrrrrr!

stupid!

grrrrrrrrrrr!

[hughworkman]

crystal clear to me

[ignatzmouses]

black reggae page

[shivvage]

Why did you cut the solo out? Apart from that, great post =oD

[CaptainBuster]

Great post!

[agent0sephiroth]

Hehe that was cool.and funny:D