Just as impossible to lift plates as it is just as impossible for Jesus to personally appear to a person. I am not LDS but I have experience with spiritual / paranormal events in my own life and have seen and felt things which are normally not psychically possible. Lot of things I have seen are incredible and unbelieveable, so I give the story the benefit of the doubt.
@Toddjumper I admire you for your openmindedness. Scripture says, But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!-gal 1:8. Mormons claim the angel moroni showed Joseph Smith the plates. According to the Scriptures if that gospel differes from Jesus Christ and the Apostles as recorded in the bible, that person is condemned and should not be listended to.
@fws91 That is one of the disappointing aspects of the Book of Mormon, its the same Gospel found in the New Testament, practically word for word. So does the book of Mormon differ in Jesus's gospel? No it does not. And that's one of the main anti-mormon arguments is that it copies from the Bible. If you are saying the gospel is different, you clearly have not compared. If you are relying on the Bible, that book is so full of self conflicting contradictions...
@Toddjumper One the book of mormon says that Jesus was born in JERUSALEM. He was born in Bethlehem, Bethlehem is not a suburb of Jerusalem, if it was it would be within the cities walls, In the Gospels it says Jesus left the Gate, saying he LEFT Jerusalem. Also in mosiah 18:17, the Church is founded before Jesus is born yet Jesus in the Gospels says on this rock I WILL build my Church. The church didn't exist til after Jesus resurrection.
@fws91 I am not going to try to defend the BoM here, but I will go back to my studies on the ancient texts and thousands of years before Christ. True, during the time of Matthew when the gospels were written, it was the city of Jerusalem. Albeit, 1000-600 years before Christ, the area round about, including bethlehem and other small villages which were not even named yet were referred to "in mass" as the "Land of Jerusalem" as mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the Apocrypha.
@Toddjumper wisdom lit presents what is USUALLY & NORMALLY true,written in contrastive modes 2 show the vast DIFFERENCES of conduct & consequences.pro 26:3-5 is a fig of speech known as ellipsis.It omits key words in order 2 emphasize a point.in hebrew these vss 3-4 are cause & effect with the not left out they r not commands.
@Toddjumper vs3 means u cant reason with a fool just as u cant with a horse or donkey.vs4 means DONT answer a fool to his folly CUZ( cause)he will think ur a fool like him(effect) Vs 5 means ANSWER a fool according to his folly(CAUSE) & he will think he said something wise & assume you'll agree with him.(effect) the author's point: you're stuck either way dont even attempt to answer a fool.
@Toddjumper Please give me some contradictions in the Bible and I can adequately clarify the meaning for you. The problem with "contradictions" in the Bible is that people don't understand the culture, geography,language, and customs of the people. Also genre must be considered. For example proverbs are PRINCIPLES that true MOST of the time. people mistake them for being IRON CLAD promises
@fws91 There are literally hundreds that I could write pages and pages on, from my days in religous study and 5 years of seminary. Plenty have tried to explain them away. Nor do I have the time or space to provide every little detail here on Youtube. PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
@Toddjumper On the land of jerusalem, that quote is from psuedo-jeremiah in the dead sea scrolls.the Qumran community wrote this as their teaching about the prophet jeremiah.there are only two columns of text available in that scroll. part of it says and jeremiah the prophet went b4 the Lord to go with the exiles who were led captive from the LAND OF JERUSALEM. in ancient times this was a way to refer to the TOWN ITSELF. the land withing the walls, not the outlying areas
@Toddjumper I have a question tho,why do yall defend this one passage to mean land of jerusalem when the BoM uses the phrase "at Jerusalem" 19 times."The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about 600 years before Christ" -Joseph Smith in Documentary History of the Church 4:537 He said the Lehi came from Jerusalem.That is 7 times.here are the other BoM refs. Alma 11:4, 3 Nephi 10:5,Helaman 16:18-19,1 Nephi 19:13,1 Nephi 19:20, 1 Nephi 22:4,4 nephi 1:31 & 2 nephi 10:5
God uses special gold for stuff like this : lighter in weight and shinier than earthly gold. I think that I deserve priesthood and a BMW for providing this (divinely inspired) answer.
@MorMon4Life1981 That's right!! Joseph SmYth was running "at the top of his speed" with golden plates. Along the way, Joseph was hounded by a wicked witch, and attacked by a deranged scarecrow looking for a brain. He knew he'd find them in SmYth's golden plates. Then, Joseph was attacked by a tin man who had no heart, and a lion looking for courage. The gold plates contained all those tings. Meanwhile, the wicked witch wanted Joseph's magic rocks and his white hat.
I don't usually post things on these"Mormon Educational Channels"because I feel that useless bickering about a subject in which neither party will ever succumb to the other's point of view is quite frankly a waste of time.However, something occurred to me while reading many of the post from various sites. The majority of the authors state that Jesus wants this or that, but they don't preach Jesus, just anti-Mormon.Anti-Joe Smith.Someone who only testified of Jesus Christ. Matt. Ch. 23.It stings
Joseph was a strong young man.Why is his story unbelievable.Any god fearing Christian would know that the Lord wudve givn him the strength to carry those plates.What about Sampson and his long hair.Moses parting the Red sea.Jesus walking on water.But I guess those who say Joseph being able to carry such weight is just too unbelievable.lol
@jferristube if you're going to push the "Mormon Popeye" theory, then one must ask why the same Lord who gave Joseph his new-found strength would allow him to be "attacked" not once, but three times. What's more, he had to run with a limp.
Since SmYth supposedly handed the plates to his mother through the window, now i guess his mother was the Mormon "Olive Oyle" ??
@jferristube Smyth wasn't jailed because he was being "persecuted"; that's just MORmON BS. SmYth was jailed for ordering the burning of The Nauvoo Expositor after they blew the lid on his practice of polygamy, all while he'd been condemning it. He was also being held on charges of treason after he declared Marshall Law. Should SmYth have been given a fair trial?? Absolutely. Was the militia wrong for killing him?? No doubt. Does that make him a "martyr"?? No way.
@jferristube No, you've made some asinine claims that don't withstand objective scrutiny. Then again, what might I expect from someone who follows a "profit" who stared at magic rocks in his hat!!
@jferristube Only in the mind of a horse-blindered, mind-nummed Mormon can SmYth be considered a "marytr". " Of course, LDS engages in it's selective tellings of accounts under the banners of "milk before meat", and concealing information that is not "faith promoting".
There were no "plates", gold or otherwise. They existed only in the fertile imagination of a glass looking story teller.
Chiasmus, which was discovered in the Book of Mormon by Jack Welch. I think classic examples include the Alma 41 discussion of the term restoration, or Alma 36 with its Christ-centered Chiasmus focusing on Alma's experience in the depths of despair when he remembers the name of Christ and turns himself over to Christ and is redeemed. These are spectacular instances in ancient writing. They are spectacular examples of chiasmus structures that Joseph Smith knew nothing about.
Gold is Gold even a prophet may call 14 carat Gold Pure Gold. Bill always strecthes everything he can to prove Mormons wrong, he carries around his pile of plates and asks people to lift them, 100lbs!!! Then quotes Lucy Smith story. First the plates were always told to be 40 to 60 lbs. never 100bs that Bill teaches. Second Lucy tells this story 15 yrs after the fact. In the end we have witnesses and Anti Mormon Haters don't .
David Whitmer Where is important as a witness. He was given many opportunities to step back from his witness, to say, "Well, I might have been mistaken" or "Joseph Smith fooled me" or something like that. He never availed himself of that opportunity. He always stood by his witness. In fact, he did more than stand by it--he insisted on it. He had his testimony of the Book of Mormon placed on his tombstone. That, I think, is striking.
LDS teaches that SmYth interpreted these "plates" by staring at magic rocks in a white hat. Since Oliver Cowdery was SmYth's main scribe, and since he saw testified that he saw the plates, then why does LDS depict SmYth studiously studying these "plates", (as opposed to staring at magic rocks in his hat) all while a curtain is supposedly blocking Oliver Cowdery's view of the plates?? What need was there for a curtain?
The eight men who testify that they examined the plates say that they each lifted them. Bill McKeever never has been too credible, but he's trying real hard!
@trencher7 *The eight men who testify* Yes, and a very nepotismic bunch that was, a bunch of relatives. Also,they didn't see them uncovered. Joseph’s brother William Smith said, "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds.
So a close-knit clan of men, witnessed that they hefted a bundle of "something" wieghing 60 pounds.
Joseph’s wife, Emma, recorded that she moved the linen-wrapped plates while cleaning. Martin Harris declared, “I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.” 2 William Smith, brother of the Prophet, reported that he “was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow case; but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he [Joseph Smith] had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment.”
Label it anyway you wish; the fact remains Mormonism is not biblical christianity and it's scripture condemns all other churchs.
Do you mean the 3 and the 8? If so, none of the 3 saw the plates with their natural eyes....only via "2nd Sight" as they called it. That doesn't stop Mormons from protraying it as if they did.
Mormonism is a cult founded by a con man and the spirit of deception guides their church to this day
@Jack44M Wow you have some bad info? Reading anti-Mormon books or something? They saw the plates with their own eyes and touched them with their own hands. You obviously don't even know what you are attacking. Christianity was a cult as well. Define biblical Christianity? Is the Catholic Church biblical Christianity?
Are you that stupid? Wm Smith said he did not see them; nor did others who made the claim. Whitmer did not see them, by his own admission, saw them through "second sight". Either you are completely ignorant or just another lying Mormon. I'd put money on it being the latter of the two
@Jack44M LOL. I love the "fruits" of Christianity you display. You are not so much a Christian as an anti-Mormon. You haven't heard of the eight additional witnesses who testified to have "seen and hefted the plates"? That's pretty basic knowledge. And your info on Whitmer is bogus as well. He said it was spiritual because, "no man can behold the face of an angel , except in spiritual view, but we were in the body also , and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time."
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The standard works "measuring rod" was ignored on at least two occasions in order to make doctrinal course corrections. They included the abandonment of polygamy in 1890 (Section 132) and the lifting of the priesthood ban against those of African heritage in 1978 (Abraham 1:26).
@agnostaxian Yeah, I've wined, dined, and rubbed elbows with Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Jerry Garcia and The Grateful Dead, as well as with The Beatles in "my mind's vision". I have a warm, fuzzy feeling about it, so it MUST be true!!
@MorMon4Life1981 So now, Joseph SmYth is the Mormon Popeye!! Pop open a can of spinach, grab the gold plates, then run like "Roadrunner" fleeing Wylie Coyote!!!
wow, those plates were heavy. maybe that was one of the simple reasons Joseph didn't actually obtain them for years. maybe part of the prep for Joseph was establishing some plan to lift such a heavy object and haul it. The Lords wisdom shining through perhaps? :) thank you again Bill for some history; you're a great historian. Bill, you strenthen my testimony in Joseph Smiths devine calling as a prophet of our God!!
"Appearance of gold" would be accurate since they were probably 16 to 18 carat not 24 carat. 24c would be too soft to eep as a book and too heavy, 18 carat puts it at 40 to 60 lbs just what the witnesses said they were. come on people instead of accuse reason it out. this guy always tries to sell his view and sacrifices the truth.
@MorMon4Life1981 I think you may have visited this site because you are legitimately questioning the claims of your faith. Or you are trying to persuade others to your faith. The problem with this is that your faith is just that, faith. If you want to make truth claims you need to not use faith as evidence because it is exactly the opposite of evidence. Those who rely upon evidence are far superior to faith claims. Those who engage in genuine ethical philosophical inquiry are superior to faith.
@sdr24 - "the Hurlburt affidavits which have been long discredited as unreliable." Uh-huh, yeah sure. Of course every good Mormon will gladly "discredit" anything that opposes their own personal beliefs. Well, if it's been discredited as unreliable, then why don't you show us the reliable information that discredits Hurlburt's affidavits. You can't just say something is invalid without demonstrating what evidence invalidates it. In that case all you are doing is giving an opinion.
@MorMon4Life1981 So now, Joseph SmYth downs a can of spinach and becomes the MoRmon Popeye!! Now, if "god" knew there were muggers lurking in the shadows, then why wouldn't "god" keep them from attacking SmYth in the first place??
Nice try, MorMen4Lies1981!! Just whip out the MorMon Magic Mojo!!
@MorMon4Life1981 Thanks for writing. I understand that a lot of this stuff isn't fun to listen to. It's probably pretty painful. But I encourage you to stick it out --- the truth is worth it. Jesus is worth it. Please e-mail me at aaron[at]mrm[dot]org if you'd like to talk privately.
The problem with this is that JS said the plates "had the appearance of gold". He didn't say that they were 100% gold. I'm guessing a gold ally of some type. But of course, the maker of the video would not accept such a simple explanation. Better luck next time, dude.
@JediLDS - well, in the Book of Mormon, Nephi claims he made the plates out of gold himself. Are you calling Nephi a liar? And if it was some "gold ally" (did you mean "alloy"?) as you claim, please share with us your expertise on the subject of metallurgy technology that was available in 7th century BC, so we can all know how Nephi created this amazing light weight gold alloy that would become the Book of Mormon. Better luck next time Mor(m)on.
@Stormspeace Actually, Nephi didn't claim that he made the plates out of gold. To wit: "And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people."
(1 Nephi 19:1) See also Mormon 8:5 where Moroni laments that he doesn't have ore to make more plates.
As for the backpacking - I do a lot of hiking. 20 lbs is seriously not a big deal. I could jog three miles here in Colorado with that much if I felt my safety depended on it. And I'm not even in great shape.
The weight stats here assume that the book was made of a solid block of pure gold. Anyone who has actually handled pure gold knows that it is too soft to be used for much of anything - certainly not for making pages you could write on. The plates would have to have been made of a much lighter alloy, and there would have been air space between the pages. The weight would likely have been closer to 60 pounds. A common weight carried by modern backpackers on long treks.
@enchantedsummer08 Yeah? So what? Did Joseph run some chemistry tests on it or something? Why should I take his word for it when obviously pure gold would be about as soft as putty in your hands? Obviously Joseph Smith was just using language common to the time - not making a scientific statement.
@sdr24 im not sure I understand. are you saying you believe this or not. I am just saying he claims moroni the angel told him they were gold plates and where to find them. thats all. I was raised in the church... then I grew up and learned to think for my self.
@enchantedsummer08 OK, that's great. So do some thinking for yourself. Pure 100% gold is completely worthless for fashioning anything of use to anyone. You have to mix it with other metal before you can use it. The less other metal you use, the softer the gold is. So obviously the plates, if they existed in the shape described by Joseph and other eyewitnesses, would have been not 100% gold - no matter what convenient un-scientific terminology people used to describe them.
@sdr24 Joe's dad hefted the plates and he said they be about 30 lbs. Others say Joe carried the plates with him for a period of time, during the time of translation. Regardless, 30 lbs or Joe walking with them, they weighed something and running with even 20 lbs at full speed home is, like most things Mormon, a bad joke, and too heavy a burden to carry in ones truth basket. Especially with the limp Joe had.
@IExposeMormonism Only a pampered American not used to doing physical labor would say that hefting 20 pounds (or 30 - or even 60) for a period of time is unlikely. You can not only heft that amount, you can run with it for short periods of time - limp or no limp. In the Korean War, North Korean soldiers marched, walked and ran up and down hills carrying loads like that all day. And they did it on only two rice balls a day. And they were only 2/3 Joseph Smith's size.
@sdr24 Hmmm, interesting. Those north Koreans may have hefted heavy loads but they didn't run 3 miles with 30+ lbs and with mean Americans chasing them the whole way home. Maybe fighter jets chased them. And ignoring the limping issue, and Koreans being 67% of Joes size, (Joe was shaped like a rice ball in some of his pictures), I think it's unreasonable to believe Joe could run full speed 3 miles, period, much less with a 30 lb sack of potato's. (full speed is technically approx 6 min miles)
@IExposeMormonism Modern American trail runners jog with 20 pound camelbacks over rough trails in the mountains for the better part of an ENTIRE DAY. Average weight load for a Roman legionnaire was 60 lbs. The average daily march distance for a Roman legion was 30 miles. Modern backpackers cover larger distances with that load. It's not at all implausible for a strong man used to walking everywhere to be able to run/jog 3 miles with 20-60 lbs. We only think it unlikely because we're sissies.
@sdr24 I'm not sure what to say about those Mod'Mericats running w/ 20lbs of camel backs. Why camels? the fat is high calorie?? You might be overstating it with the Romans, they were runts, 5'5 ish, 140 lbs.. Corn bred, fed and wed. And they weren't walking with 60lbs, either. Mostly they killed, raped, had a big sacrifice, raped, slept, walked, burned, poisoned, raped...repeat. But Joe was no warrior, he was a lover. And long is "All day"?? Because I could run a marathon in just under 3 hrs
@IExposeMormonism Here's a quote directly from Wikipedia on Roman legions:
"To keep these baggage trains from becoming too large and slow, Marius had each infantryman carry as much of his own equipment as he could, including his own armour, weapons and 15 days' rations, for about 25–30 kg (50–60 pounds) of load total.... The soldiers were nicknamed Marius' Mules because of the amount of gear they had to carry themselves."
@IExposeMormonism As for Joseph Smith, he was a hired farm laborer in addition to all the other stuff he did. He spent his entire youth clearing tree stumps plowing land, and various other physical hard labor. And like most farm folk those days, he walked everywhere. Doing a 20 or 30 mile walk in a day wasn't considered unusual for those people. But considering how badly you butchered the history on the Romans, I guess it's understandable you don't have much background on Joseph either.
@sdr24 Odd, that's not what his neighbors said of him. I have Arrian's "Alexander the Great", while not a Roman he did a lot of walking. killing, etc. An army lives on it's stomach. No canned food then. They used wagons and slaves. Carrying 40% of your body weight is a lot of tiring work. I wonder why Alexander didn't average 30 a day. Nor did the Army marching on Utah in 1857. But you say the Romans did and American trail runners? Could you flesh that out a tad. a source, perhaps.
@IExposeMormonism Depends which sources you are reading about Joseph Smith. You seem to be going off the Hurlburt affidavits - which have been long discredited as unreliable.
As for the Roman source - try Wikipedia. Type "Roman Legion." The quote was lifted verbatim from that article. And the issue of whether Romans pillaged is utterly irrelevant to how much they carried on the march.
@sdr24 make that "How long is all day, because I could run....." which is about a 7 minute mile, 8.5 mph for 3 hours. no prize but not easy. running 2 miles in 12 minutes makes you less than 1/100.
How so? When I'm given a choice between believing a researched argument backed up with evidence (as in the above video) or believing the outlandish fairy tales of a known habitual liar and con-man like Smith, it's pretty obvious to me which one I should believe. This con-man Smith also "prophesied" that the world would end in 1891, and it amazes me that his brainwashed cult still believes anything he ever said.
@LDS4Life71 How so? show me where to look at the counter arguments that actually convince me otherwise becauae as far as i know this stuff is pretty legit information how can you just look away from the truth like that are really so dogmatically mormon you can't see anything wrong with it? or is it pride you can't see hurt? whatever the case is this stuff is real acknowledge it or not but people deserve the truth.
@wachnathan Like Elijah of old, I laugh at the modern priests of Baal, and challenge you to answer. Maybe your god is schizo, and answering himself. Try to get him to speak up, because the silence is deafening. The Mormons are right.
@LDS4Life71 Mormonism is actually the walking dead the doctrine has been debunked already the only reason it still existists is because it has millions of dollars to support it, Your quote is very silly and means nothng to me your world view is logically impossible and in total contradiction to the christian faith from my perspective i would be embarressed to be mormon again. All you have is self testimony but with no way to prove its legit outside of your own mind so testimony doesn't work.
@wachnathan You draw whatever lame excuses for conclusions you want, but you'll never understand fully the words of God, nor do you recognize His voice. I really feel sorry for you.
@LDS4Life71 Its a claim of knowledge not a excuse your book of mormon is a fabracation spin off of christianty and i know it was a con man that was known for fabracating wild stories wrote your book not a god why do you refute that which has already been proven? I can't see why you defend a dying belief system the evidence against it is overwhelming but ok what ever you say. If you all talk with god personally then why do you have a prophet? this just doesn't make sense at all.
@LDS4Life71 <Maybe Mormon god has such a cacophony of other gods squaking around him it's impossible to hear a damn thing. Schizo is being split off and Mormon gods are a bunch of split up Babyonian-Egyptian-Greek nightmares. History is nightmare to awaken from and the history of Mormonism is bloody in its "getting".
@wachnathan Your book of mormon has failed the test Ive watched the videos of mormon apoligists admit the book is based on faith not on history but yet they spin the mayan culture around as if its biblical ya thats not lying is it, even your prophet Hinkley admitted to believing in a "fabracated" different version of Jesus then the actually historical one. When i listen to mormons debate all we hear is exuses not evidence this will not work in a atheistic growing nation.
I wonder what was a more difficult task. Lifting heavy gold plates out of a hole in the ground or pushing the two pillars apart so the temple fell down about Samson?
@Sketchtool Of course, that's what happened god gave him the extra strength to carry the plates. Hmmm, I wonder why god didn't give him the extra strength to outrun his captors who shot him in the prison cell.
......
Oh wait, let me guess, it's because god works in mysterious ways and it is not for us to question.
.....
I hope one day you will realize how faulty your logic is and how blind you are.
Yep, only religious people would believe in a 600 page book written on gold plates that would have required a box car to store them in! If you buy that I'll sell you my lead slab version of "The Lord Of The Rings" !
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@CounterCultureLives Ever heard of Short Hand? Ever seen Japanese characters written in English or Koreancharacters changed to english?,Three examples of reformed writng. space on metal is valuable seems logical. Have your fun, to bad you miss the message. Magic rocks? I guess Moses staff didn't turn into a snake.
I found gold plates my self. but no one believes me. but the angel that came to me in my dream told me to pawn them , so I did. now I have a gold package on my new Corvette.
I'm gonn-a tell you about the gold plates. A small replica of these gold plates I found can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Don't pass this up.
Actually, you DON'T understand; I'm far from being an atheist. There are parts of The Bible that are supported through credible scientific evidences, but The Bible is far from infallible.
As for BoM?? There are no credible, objectively reviewed evidences to support any part of BoM.
As for "faith"? Truth is based in fact; faith is based upon fervent feelings. Fervent feelings, no matter how fervent they may be, do not make for a foundation of knowledge.
@Outlaw1257 I'm glad you're not an atheist. Sorry for the misconception. I assumed as much when you said that some of the prophets were fictional. I think that a belief in God is a foundation for happiness.
@MsEndure2end I'm not saying that the "prophets" were necessarily "fictional". i am saying that the stories of the prophets are not scientifically supported. Was there a "Moses"?? There may well have been; but the stories of those "prophets" have been adulterated by man, and convoluted in such a way as to empower the few over the masses. There IS credible evidence of a migration, but not of a people fleeing. There ARE credible evidences which support certain parts of The Bible; not so with BoM.
Joseph Smith was in prison for destroying private property, a printing press, which is documented in the History of the Church, which was published by the LDS.
Destroying printing presses is a violation of the 1st amendment, (i.e freedom of press)
@endofus I agree with you about SmYth's arrest being justified. My issue is that he was denied due process of law. I believe that he should have been given a fair trial, allowed to present a defense, and I think the odds are quite high that he would have been rightly convicted. A fair trial would have also put to rest LDS's claims of SmYth's so-called "martyrdom".
@endofus Joseph Smith was falsely arrested, falsely imprisoned and murdered without even the remote possibility of due process of law. The courts would have found Joseph Smith and the City Council innocent. The Nauvoo Expositor was declared a public nuisance, and was destroyed lawfully in an orderly way without riot or confusion. The libelous, corrupt paper was destroyed lawfully in the name of freedom of religion which is a right of every American. History of the Church p. 460 and 466.
@MsEndure2end All any of us can do is speculate upon the outcome of Smith's trial, which underscores the importance of letting the judicial system run it's course. Smith deserved a fair trial.
As for the expositor "being libelous & corrupt", that is a matter of opinion. The rights of a free press are every bit as sacred as freedom of religion.
@Outlaw1257 I agree with you in one way and disagree about another. A free press and freedom of religion are equally sacred in general. However, I respectfully disagree that it’s a matter of opinion that the Expositor was libelous & corrupt.
Religious freedom trumped free speech in this case as witnesses and authorities found the Nauvoo Expositor to be malicious, existing solely to deprive Mormons of their freedom of religion, even their very lives! The paper was rightfully destroyed, p.496.
@MsEndure2end The Expositor's revelation of Smith's practicing of polygamy, all while Smith was condemning the practice of polygamy , was not libelous. The defining standard for libel is that those accusations must be made "with knowing and reckless disregard for the truth". As far as The Expositor being "malicious, existing solely to deprive Mormons of their freedom"?? Exposing Smith's polygamy deprived no one of their religious freedom.
@Outlaw1257 I just had an epiphany:: Mormonism is Smythology. I also found reference for 30lbs of lead. I mean gold. Joe's dad said so. In "Brigham Young", 1925, M R Werner, ....Said he hefted the plates and they be 'bout 30lbs... If so, chubby Joe could have jogged home. With a limp, as he had one. 200lbs of 25yr old could have jogged it. But not run it. And he was a pudge. But when we are given the dimensions and weight they don't add up. Just like Mormonism!!
@IExposeMormonism Just so you know, it is spelled, "Smith." An epiphany is a sudden perception of reality. The reality is that the Church is built on rock solid foundation of Christ's gospel. An eye witness saw the physique of Joseph Smith as, "tall in stature and splendidly proportioned. His whole being radiated strength and energy." He was not without faults, as we all are afflicted with faults. but his teachings were true. The plates argument is a diversion from more relevant matters.
@MsEndure2end The "plates argument" is far from a diversion; it is only one of many problematic areas for LDS. The depiction of Smith as a "strong, hard working farm boy" is one presented by LDS. Even if he was strong, even if the (tumbaga) plates" weighed only 60#s, the story of Smith running "at the top of his speed" with a limp, for three miles, all while being chased by "attackers", is still a stretch; without the Mormon miracle mojo, it falls apart very quickly.
@MsEndure2end Must I spell out reformed Egyptian? It's Smith and mythology flopped onto each other, Smythology. It came to me in a flash and I felt good so I know it's true.
@IExposeMormonism Actually, it's Smith, mythology, and the writings of Solomon Spaulding, combined with the rituals of Freemasonry, and plagiarized texts from The Bible. Smith had a reputation for being a gifted story teller.
@IExposeMormonism Without the shuffling of the conch shells in "The Mormon Truth Shell Game", the fables of LDS fall apart very quickly. Even if the "plates" weighed only 60#'s, the story simply fails to withstand objective analysis or critical scrutiny. I could take the most fit high school football players or track stars, give them 60#'s worth of weight, in a very compact space, and have them run on an even track "at the top of their speed" for three miles. They wouldn't last long at all.
@Outlaw1257 In regard to the weight of the plates, whether or not they could be carried, please see - How Witnesses Described the Gold Plates. It is one page, concise, contains eyewitness accounts, and puts the argument to rest.
@Outlaw1257 Plural marriage was legal. Further, it was a sacred calling, given to just over 2%, and never generally practiced throughout the Church. It was a great responsibility reserved for the righteous and responsible.
Sadly, the few that abused the law and trust gave enemies grounds for ridicule and slander against the whole Church.
In the case of the Expositor, "freedom of the press" was a lie used to unite other haters. Mormons were found innocent of all charges not once, but twice.
@MsEndure2end The issue isn't the legality of plural marriages; the issue is that Smith was condemning it, while lying about it. The Expositor was powerless to restrict the expression of religious freedom. Any orders to destroy it's press, regardless of who gave them, violated freedom of the press. This is another classic example of LDS's attempts to justify censorship. The burning of The Expositor was only one of several crimes Smith was accused of committing. He deserved a fair trial.
@Outlaw1257 Thank you for remarking that Joseph deserved a fair trial. The mob was not so concerned about justice as they were haters that clamored for Mormon blood. The Expositor was not powerless. It printed lies and inflammatory threats that were a continuance of the mob action suffered in Missouri. The City Council legally declared the paper a nuisance and had it legally destroyed by officials in an orderly manner. The community was in agreement and relieved by its destruction.
MsEndure2end funny. Try 25%. Let's be strong here. Have you read your "Nauvoo Endowment Companies, a Documentary History"? I have. It's by Mormons. Seems Lucinda Morgan Harris, the widow of William Morgan,Well, she married Joe. Before and After he was kilt. She married Harris for time and Joe for Eternity. With John D Lee and Briggy as witnesses. From pure Mormon sources. I posted it. I wonder how Lucinda felt loosing 2 husbands to ritual Freemason murders. Everyone at Carthage was a Freemason.
@IExposeMormonism I read The History of the Church, and The Restored Church for starters. May I assume by your name, and your casual use of "Joe," "Briggy," and "kilt" that your negative opinions about the Church are already fixed? An enlightened understanding of how sacred priesthood callings work in the Church would allow you to appreciate the truth about plural marriage. The lie that polygamy was an orgy was begun by a few wicked men. Good men like Joseph and Brigham were respected and loved.
Endure: "Already fixed" based on 4yrs of continuous reading. reading based on 4 yrs of continuous book buying. over 325, over $30K. It all started with Juanita. Most folks wouldn't see what I see.I was stunned. open mouthed astonished. I saw occult all over Mormonism& the Mountain Meadows Massacre. So I started by buying Mormon books! Yes. And others. Oh, my. Freemasonry, Jewish Kaballah, magic! This help explain the strange prayer circles and oaths I read of. I posted my collection @300 books.
The common connection of Mormonism to Eleusisian fertility cult is based on the materialism and sexuality permeating Mormonism. Like in pictures, where some poor lass is stretched over the temple alter to be blood atoned. You wont believe it; I know it happened. In Nauvoo, too. It happened "at home" to. Too many testimonies of, say, a wife sitting on her husbands lap and he slits her throat! Or a hubby gets same for adultery. Mormonism is Old World Religion, to use Josephs words. Not Christian.
@IExposeMormonism I am truly sorry about your disillusionment of the Church. I can sense that you have tried your very best, and I admire your dedication. I hope you will allow me to tell you that my feelings and education regarding the Church are quite the opposite of what you have shared. I believe with all my heart, might, mind, and strength that the Church is Christ's true church, along with the priesthood, as a result of real study. I believe in Gifts of the Spirit and mine is to believe.
@hexusziggurat I don't know why it didn't work...maybe try and subscribe? and Thanks. I found a reference in "Brigham Young" 1925, MR Werner who says Joe sr said he had hefted those plates and they were about 30lbs. But Joe had a bad leg and a small limp, being a tad lazy, and running 3 miles with 30lbs, no....Jogging, say 9 minutes a mile, maybe. But he says he ran. And if guys were chasing him he wold have to run. So, if we say 30lbs, Joe is still a liar
Exposing Smiths illegal polygamy, and was being printed by exmormons. It was not slander because it was true. Destroying private property is illegal , so Joseph Smith was a criminal who was arrested with due process. This was not his first arrest either, In New York he was found guilty of being a disorderly persen stemming from treasure digging. He would charge people money and tell them he could find buried treasure (which he couldn't) and was convicted (i.e he is a con man)
@endofus Joseph said when falsely arrested: [It is not for crime of any description that I and my brethren are thus continually persecuted and harassed by our enemies...You thirst for blood, and nothing but my blood will satisfy you. I prophesy in the name of the Lord you shall witness scenes of blood and sorrow to your entire satisfaction...those people that desire this great evil upon us shall...seek peace but not be able to find it. Gentlemen, you will find what I have told you to be true.]
@MsEndure2end Just as an aside, MsEndure2end, it's constructive for us to engage in a civil discourse here. I've seen so many 'discussions" quickly digress to petty name calling and mindless insults.
As the Late, Great, Speaker of The House Sam Rayburn (D-Texas) admonished his colleagues on Capitol Hill, "Disagree without being disagreeable". It's good that we are able to discuss our differences in that spirit. I commend you for your contributions in helping to make this discourse constructive.
@Outlaw1257 Thanks for the compliment. Your civil attitude reminded me of something that the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said, "There is so great a need for civility and mutual respect among those of differing beliefs and philosophies. We can and must be respectful toward those with whose teachings we may not agree. We must be willing to defend the rights of others who may become the victims of bigotry." I enjoy discussions with people such as you who show good manners!
@MsEndure2en, I wish that had prevailed at Mountain Meadows... I was thinking, JS story is he was alone on a hill He threw his pillow case over his shoulder, it was dark out, late, he ran. He had been out digging in the dirt, and his girl friend was with him sometimes. Scared, in his twenties, he ran to his parents home where he felt safe. If we remove the gold plates story things start to make sense. Which is a good thing, Mormonism so often fails to make sense until we remove a character or 2
Popeye and Superman Are fictional characters ..... So are Moroni, Mormon, Lehi, Nephi, Laman, and all of the other characters in The Book of Mormon. As for Moses?? There is no evidence for Moses, the ten plagues that fell upon Egypt or the exodus that supposedly took place at the time Moses supposedly lived, nor is there any credible evidence of talking donkeys or talking / burning bushes. It's all oft repeated folklore blindly accepted as truth, nothing more.
@Outlaw1257 I understand now that you believe that the scriptures are fictional. I stand with the opposite view. While I respect your right to believe according to your conscience, I want to witness to you that I confidently and completely believe in God. As opposed to blind faith, my faith is a result of prayer, study, and practice. While I have this faith, I simply can't give it to you, or even convince you. The only way to have faith is to have the desire, and work for it a little.
Be the first in your Stake to own "Reformed Egyptians For Dummies!!" You'll be the envy of your Ward!! Your "Reformed Egyptian For Dummies" kit includes a new off-gassing hat, your very own set of magic rocks, and a shiny set of electroplated gold tablets!!
Doing the LDS Sidestep, BishopMahroni?? I mentioned nothing about SmYth's polygamy, nor his endeavors as a "treasure hunter"; but you conveniently sidestepped the issue that I did address. THe Kinderhook Plates?? That is another one of many problematic issues for any person who studies LDS / Bom / SmYth, from a detached perspective, but I never mentioned mentioned that, either. Another matter worthy of note is that SmYth walked with a limp following his surgery as a child.
Are you kidding me? More of the same regurgitated anti-Mormon lies, twisted truths and out of context garbage. If you really want to know the truth about Christ's church go to mormon.org. You wouldn't go to a car mechanic to remove your appendix would you? Then why have such a viscous anti-Mormon teach you about the Lord's church? Go to the source.....go to the truth....mormon.org
Umm...so the dude in the video actually saw the plates and tried to lift them? What a tard....besides what does it matter how heavy they were...God could make them as light as he wants to suit his purpose. Besides if you want to get technical gold can be hammered extremely thin..so who's to say how "thick" the pages were AND after being "written" upon how thick they became because of the distortion...AND J.S. might not be sure what the other 2/3rds of the plates were made of as they were sealed.
@BishopMahroni Your argument, even with the "tumbaga" factor, still fails, Bill McKeever has discussed these matters at length on other vids. Even with the "tumbaga" excuse, those "plates" would have still weighed about 60lbs. with very little weight distribution, Now, put them in a cloth bag, and RUN about 3 miles (over uneven ground) with it, with three men chasing you.
So now, we have the Mormon "Poppey" factor to excuse away the discrepancies.
@Outlaw1257 Umm....it makes me laugh how hard and to what great lengths some vapid anti-Mormons will go to to try and dis-proove our faith. Regardless what you, or some learned scholar has to say about the weight of the plates, whether ot not J.S. was actually married to 42? women, whether the kinderhook plates were fake or not....it makes no difference if J.S. was a treasure hunter or not.....Our faith in God is what matters and no amount of worldly opinions or facts will change that! Ever.
@BishopMahroni Ahhhh.... The unbridled arrogance of Mormons, mixed with a healthy dose of testiphony. Facts fail, substance fails, yet you ridicule those who dare to study LDS without the Mobot horseblinders??
@Outlaw1257 McKeever's last sentence here is: "Unfortunately, a lot of people DO believe this to be a true story."
There are people, I've found, who'll believe whatever they want to believe, no matter how far-fetched or implausible, and will defend the indefensible to the end. In other words, "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind's already made up."
@Outlaw1257 These Mormons are the biggest suckers - they will never listen to logic as they are already brainwashed.
Where are these golden plates now - did he lose them?
Joseph made the perfect cult - he can sleep with any woman/girl he wants to, no on can question him, and he gets 10% of everyone's income. The problem is finding people dumb enough to believe him - obviously he found some real fools.
The golden plates were actually pretty light, because the golden plates didn't exist! Joseph Smith was a Fake con man with several wives.
defiant0121 5 days ago
It was probably a gold alloy.
RainbowManification 2 weeks ago
may be he was full of it and your gulliable.
lp000028 2 weeks ago
They weighed about 60 to 80 pounds...
byubroncohurricane 2 months ago
They weren't made of gold......they had the appearence of gold....wow...
byubroncohurricane 2 months ago
Did he really just base the incorrectness of a document on a movie made about it?
HAHthatsaKneeSlapper 3 months ago
Just as impossible to lift plates as it is just as impossible for Jesus to personally appear to a person. I am not LDS but I have experience with spiritual / paranormal events in my own life and have seen and felt things which are normally not psychically possible. Lot of things I have seen are incredible and unbelieveable, so I give the story the benefit of the doubt.
Toddjumper 3 months ago
@Toddjumper I admire you for your openmindedness. Scripture says, But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!-gal 1:8. Mormons claim the angel moroni showed Joseph Smith the plates. According to the Scriptures if that gospel differes from Jesus Christ and the Apostles as recorded in the bible, that person is condemned and should not be listended to.
fws91 1 month ago
@fws91 That is one of the disappointing aspects of the Book of Mormon, its the same Gospel found in the New Testament, practically word for word. So does the book of Mormon differ in Jesus's gospel? No it does not. And that's one of the main anti-mormon arguments is that it copies from the Bible. If you are saying the gospel is different, you clearly have not compared. If you are relying on the Bible, that book is so full of self conflicting contradictions...
Toddjumper 1 month ago
@Toddjumper One the book of mormon says that Jesus was born in JERUSALEM. He was born in Bethlehem, Bethlehem is not a suburb of Jerusalem, if it was it would be within the cities walls, In the Gospels it says Jesus left the Gate, saying he LEFT Jerusalem. Also in mosiah 18:17, the Church is founded before Jesus is born yet Jesus in the Gospels says on this rock I WILL build my Church. The church didn't exist til after Jesus resurrection.
fws91 1 month ago
@fws91 I am not going to try to defend the BoM here, but I will go back to my studies on the ancient texts and thousands of years before Christ. True, during the time of Matthew when the gospels were written, it was the city of Jerusalem. Albeit, 1000-600 years before Christ, the area round about, including bethlehem and other small villages which were not even named yet were referred to "in mass" as the "Land of Jerusalem" as mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as the Apocrypha.
Toddjumper 1 month ago
@Toddjumper wisdom lit presents what is USUALLY & NORMALLY true,written in contrastive modes 2 show the vast DIFFERENCES of conduct & consequences.pro 26:3-5 is a fig of speech known as ellipsis.It omits key words in order 2 emphasize a point.in hebrew these vss 3-4 are cause & effect with the not left out they r not commands.
fws91 1 month ago
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fws91 1 month ago
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fws91 1 month ago
@Toddjumper vs3 means u cant reason with a fool just as u cant with a horse or donkey.vs4 means DONT answer a fool to his folly CUZ( cause)he will think ur a fool like him(effect) Vs 5 means ANSWER a fool according to his folly(CAUSE) & he will think he said something wise & assume you'll agree with him.(effect) the author's point: you're stuck either way dont even attempt to answer a fool.
fws91 1 month ago
@Toddjumper Please give me some contradictions in the Bible and I can adequately clarify the meaning for you. The problem with "contradictions" in the Bible is that people don't understand the culture, geography,language, and customs of the people. Also genre must be considered. For example proverbs are PRINCIPLES that true MOST of the time. people mistake them for being IRON CLAD promises
fws91 1 month ago
@fws91 There are literally hundreds that I could write pages and pages on, from my days in religous study and 5 years of seminary. Plenty have tried to explain them away. Nor do I have the time or space to provide every little detail here on Youtube. PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Toddjumper 1 month ago
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@Toddjumper On the land of jerusalem, that quote is from psuedo-jeremiah in the dead sea scrolls.the Qumran community wrote this as their teaching about the prophet jeremiah.there are only two columns of text available in that scroll. part of it says and jeremiah the prophet went b4 the Lord to go with the exiles who were led captive from the LAND OF JERUSALEM. in ancient times this was a way to refer to the TOWN ITSELF. the land withing the walls, not the outlying areas
fws91 1 month ago
@Toddjumper I have a question tho,why do yall defend this one passage to mean land of jerusalem when the BoM uses the phrase "at Jerusalem" 19 times."The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about 600 years before Christ" -Joseph Smith in Documentary History of the Church 4:537 He said the Lehi came from Jerusalem.That is 7 times.here are the other BoM refs. Alma 11:4, 3 Nephi 10:5,Helaman 16:18-19,1 Nephi 19:13,1 Nephi 19:20, 1 Nephi 22:4,4 nephi 1:31 & 2 nephi 10:5
fws91 1 month ago
@fws91 It would be like saying IN Salt Lake County or AT Salt Lake
County, or FROM Salt lake County Bethleham is in Jerusalem proper. Its one is the same.
scottwins2 2 weeks ago
God uses special gold for stuff like this : lighter in weight and shinier than earthly gold. I think that I deserve priesthood and a BMW for providing this (divinely inspired) answer.
Smeogul 4 months ago 4
@MorMon4Life1981 That's right!! Joseph SmYth was running "at the top of his speed" with golden plates. Along the way, Joseph was hounded by a wicked witch, and attacked by a deranged scarecrow looking for a brain. He knew he'd find them in SmYth's golden plates. Then, Joseph was attacked by a tin man who had no heart, and a lion looking for courage. The gold plates contained all those tings. Meanwhile, the wicked witch wanted Joseph's magic rocks and his white hat.
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
I don't usually post things on these"Mormon Educational Channels"because I feel that useless bickering about a subject in which neither party will ever succumb to the other's point of view is quite frankly a waste of time.However, something occurred to me while reading many of the post from various sites. The majority of the authors state that Jesus wants this or that, but they don't preach Jesus, just anti-Mormon.Anti-Joe Smith.Someone who only testified of Jesus Christ. Matt. Ch. 23.It stings
quechanta 4 months ago
Joseph was a strong young man.Why is his story unbelievable.Any god fearing Christian would know that the Lord wudve givn him the strength to carry those plates.What about Sampson and his long hair.Moses parting the Red sea.Jesus walking on water.But I guess those who say Joseph being able to carry such weight is just too unbelievable.lol
jferristube 4 months ago
@jferristube if you're going to push the "Mormon Popeye" theory, then one must ask why the same Lord who gave Joseph his new-found strength would allow him to be "attacked" not once, but three times. What's more, he had to run with a limp.
Since SmYth supposedly handed the plates to his mother through the window, now i guess his mother was the Mormon "Olive Oyle" ??
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
@CounterCultureLives
Yur a very funny guy.lolYea and why wud the same Lord allow Smith to be
martyred putting him along with all the martyrs of ancient times.Why did all
ancient apostles and prophets Pay with their Lives.All the great men of the
lord were tried and tested in the furnace brotherWhy did Moses a prophet
have a speech impedimnt?Youre funny but yu aint very scripturely clever or
enlightened.Probably not evn Christian.Comedian Yes lol
jferristube 4 months ago
@jferristube Smyth wasn't jailed because he was being "persecuted"; that's just MORmON BS. SmYth was jailed for ordering the burning of The Nauvoo Expositor after they blew the lid on his practice of polygamy, all while he'd been condemning it. He was also being held on charges of treason after he declared Marshall Law. Should SmYth have been given a fair trial?? Absolutely. Was the militia wrong for killing him?? No doubt. Does that make him a "martyr"?? No way.
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
@CounterCultureLives
Nauvoo was His city inhabited entirely by LDS. And because I kno Smiths history.All of it.I Know and declare that he was martyred.Like it or not.
jferristube 4 months ago
@jferristube So, are you now claiming that MORmONS were "persecuting him for his righteousness"??
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
@CounterCultureLives
Man yu are reeely thick
jferristube 4 months ago
@jferristube No, you've made some asinine claims that don't withstand objective scrutiny. Then again, what might I expect from someone who follows a "profit" who stared at magic rocks in his hat!!
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
@jferristube Only in the mind of a horse-blindered, mind-nummed Mormon can SmYth be considered a "marytr". " Of course, LDS engages in it's selective tellings of accounts under the banners of "milk before meat", and concealing information that is not "faith promoting".
There were no "plates", gold or otherwise. They existed only in the fertile imagination of a glass looking story teller.
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
Chiasmus, which was discovered in the Book of Mormon by Jack Welch. I think classic examples include the Alma 41 discussion of the term restoration, or Alma 36 with its Christ-centered Chiasmus focusing on Alma's experience in the depths of despair when he remembers the name of Christ and turns himself over to Christ and is redeemed. These are spectacular instances in ancient writing. They are spectacular examples of chiasmus structures that Joseph Smith knew nothing about.
scottwins2 4 months ago
Gold is Gold even a prophet may call 14 carat Gold Pure Gold. Bill always strecthes everything he can to prove Mormons wrong, he carries around his pile of plates and asks people to lift them, 100lbs!!! Then quotes Lucy Smith story. First the plates were always told to be 40 to 60 lbs. never 100bs that Bill teaches. Second Lucy tells this story 15 yrs after the fact. In the end we have witnesses and Anti Mormon Haters don't .
scottwins2 4 months ago
David Whitmer Where is important as a witness. He was given many opportunities to step back from his witness, to say, "Well, I might have been mistaken" or "Joseph Smith fooled me" or something like that. He never availed himself of that opportunity. He always stood by his witness. In fact, he did more than stand by it--he insisted on it. He had his testimony of the Book of Mormon placed on his tombstone. That, I think, is striking.
scottwins2 4 months ago
@scottwins2 Okay, now explain something:
LDS teaches that SmYth interpreted these "plates" by staring at magic rocks in a white hat. Since Oliver Cowdery was SmYth's main scribe, and since he saw testified that he saw the plates, then why does LDS depict SmYth studiously studying these "plates", (as opposed to staring at magic rocks in his hat) all while a curtain is supposedly blocking Oliver Cowdery's view of the plates?? What need was there for a curtain?
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
@CounterCultureLives If I told you you would not except it anyway. The only thing you know is hatered of the Mormons.
scottwins2 4 months ago
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@scottwins2 In other words, you're sidestepping because you have no answer.
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@CounterCultureLives In other words, you have no answer.
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
Maybe the plates were fools gold?
dzsquared1 5 months ago
The eight men who testify that they examined the plates say that they each lifted them. Bill McKeever never has been too credible, but he's trying real hard!
trencher7 5 months ago
@trencher7 *The eight men who testify* Yes, and a very nepotismic bunch that was, a bunch of relatives. Also,they didn't see them uncovered. Joseph’s brother William Smith said, "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds.
So a close-knit clan of men, witnessed that they hefted a bundle of "something" wieghing 60 pounds.
I'm convinced, who do I talk to get baptised?
eeikman 5 months ago
Joseph’s wife, Emma, recorded that she moved the linen-wrapped plates while cleaning. Martin Harris declared, “I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.” 2 William Smith, brother of the Prophet, reported that he “was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow case; but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he [Joseph Smith] had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment.”
trencher7 5 months ago
@trencher7
Idiot.....the fake plates were always covered.
Jack44M 4 months ago
@Jack44M Not for 11 others who testified to handling them and seeing them. Why the hostility? Are you not a Christian?
trencher7 4 months ago
@trencher7
Which 11 are you referring to?
Mormonism is an attack on biblical christianity; don't be surprised if christians defend it
Jack44M 4 months ago
@Jack44M You mean Mormonism is an attack on Fundamentalist Evangelicalism. And you don't even know about the witnesses?
trencher7 4 months ago
@trencher7
Label it anyway you wish; the fact remains Mormonism is not biblical christianity and it's scripture condemns all other churchs.
Do you mean the 3 and the 8? If so, none of the 3 saw the plates with their natural eyes....only via "2nd Sight" as they called it. That doesn't stop Mormons from protraying it as if they did.
Mormonism is a cult founded by a con man and the spirit of deception guides their church to this day
Jack44M 4 months ago
@Jack44M Wow you have some bad info? Reading anti-Mormon books or something? They saw the plates with their own eyes and touched them with their own hands. You obviously don't even know what you are attacking. Christianity was a cult as well. Define biblical Christianity? Is the Catholic Church biblical Christianity?
trencher7 4 months ago
@trencher7
Are you that stupid? Wm Smith said he did not see them; nor did others who made the claim. Whitmer did not see them, by his own admission, saw them through "second sight". Either you are completely ignorant or just another lying Mormon. I'd put money on it being the latter of the two
Jack44M 4 months ago
@Jack44M LOL. I love the "fruits" of Christianity you display. You are not so much a Christian as an anti-Mormon. You haven't heard of the eight additional witnesses who testified to have "seen and hefted the plates"? That's pretty basic knowledge. And your info on Whitmer is bogus as well. He said it was spiritual because, "no man can behold the face of an angel , except in spiritual view, but we were in the body also , and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time."
trencher7 4 months ago
@trencher7
I know an Anit-Chrisian Cult when I see one.......
It's typical of Mormon decit that they protray something in a manner other than what the facts support.
Jack44M 4 months ago
@Jack44M Ha. You crack me up. I just showed you the facts and how you are dead wrong. I guess it's back to the name calling. Bye "Christian".
trencher7 4 months ago
@trencher7 Don't bother with Jack, he hates Mormons with a passion. He favors the Mob. Governor Wilburn Boggs is his hero.
scottwins2 4 months ago
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CounterCultureLives 5 months ago
The standard works "measuring rod" was ignored on at least two occasions in order to make doctrinal course corrections. They included the abandonment of polygamy in 1890 (Section 132) and the lifting of the priesthood ban against those of African heritage in 1978 (Abraham 1:26).
endofus 5 months ago
Appeared to be "golden" and LEAD! ridiculous...:(
sonjabarrett 5 months ago
it is clear that the gold plates were seen in a mind vision, they were not physically real
agnostaxian 5 months ago
@agnostaxian Yeah, I've wined, dined, and rubbed elbows with Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Jerry Garcia and The Grateful Dead, as well as with The Beatles in "my mind's vision". I have a warm, fuzzy feeling about it, so it MUST be true!!
CounterCultureLives 5 months ago
@MorMon4Life1981 So now, Joseph SmYth is the Mormon Popeye!! Pop open a can of spinach, grab the gold plates, then run like "Roadrunner" fleeing Wylie Coyote!!!
CounterCultureLives 6 months ago
Throw in a set of steak knives and we have a deal!
CeruleanAzul 6 months ago
wow, those plates were heavy. maybe that was one of the simple reasons Joseph didn't actually obtain them for years. maybe part of the prep for Joseph was establishing some plan to lift such a heavy object and haul it. The Lords wisdom shining through perhaps? :) thank you again Bill for some history; you're a great historian. Bill, you strenthen my testimony in Joseph Smiths devine calling as a prophet of our God!!
kthcsh 6 months ago
@kthcsh why didn't Joe call his family members and friends to help him transport the gold plates back home?
brandenburg2388 6 months ago
@brandenburg2388 i don't know. good question, good idea. but for whatever reason he was instructed to keep them even from his family for a time.
kthcsh 6 months ago
Not all of the plates were GOLD, i believe it say only 4 of them were or only one section of it was ..
LatinProductions 6 months ago
"Appearance of gold" would be accurate since they were probably 16 to 18 carat not 24 carat. 24c would be too soft to eep as a book and too heavy, 18 carat puts it at 40 to 60 lbs just what the witnesses said they were. come on people instead of accuse reason it out. this guy always tries to sell his view and sacrifices the truth.
scottwins2 6 months ago
@scottwins2
Metal is measured in KARAT; not carat. lol
If 24k weighs 200 lbs, then 18k would weigh 150....learn to do simple math and the difference between karat and carat.
Jack44M 5 months ago
@MorMon4Life1981 I think you may have visited this site because you are legitimately questioning the claims of your faith. Or you are trying to persuade others to your faith. The problem with this is that your faith is just that, faith. If you want to make truth claims you need to not use faith as evidence because it is exactly the opposite of evidence. Those who rely upon evidence are far superior to faith claims. Those who engage in genuine ethical philosophical inquiry are superior to faith.
987chesster 6 months ago
@sdr24 - "the Hurlburt affidavits which have been long discredited as unreliable." Uh-huh, yeah sure. Of course every good Mormon will gladly "discredit" anything that opposes their own personal beliefs. Well, if it's been discredited as unreliable, then why don't you show us the reliable information that discredits Hurlburt's affidavits. You can't just say something is invalid without demonstrating what evidence invalidates it. In that case all you are doing is giving an opinion.
Stormspeace 6 months ago
APPEARANCE OF GOLD IS JUST THAT.. APPEARANCE!!
johnawesley1 6 months ago
@MorMon4Life1981 So now, Joseph SmYth downs a can of spinach and becomes the MoRmon Popeye!! Now, if "god" knew there were muggers lurking in the shadows, then why wouldn't "god" keep them from attacking SmYth in the first place??
Nice try, MorMen4Lies1981!! Just whip out the MorMon Magic Mojo!!
CounterCultureLives 6 months ago
@MorMon4Life1981 Thanks for writing. I understand that a lot of this stuff isn't fun to listen to. It's probably pretty painful. But I encourage you to stick it out --- the truth is worth it. Jesus is worth it. Please e-mail me at aaron[at]mrm[dot]org if you'd like to talk privately.
aaronshaf2006 7 months ago
The problem with this is that JS said the plates "had the appearance of gold". He didn't say that they were 100% gold. I'm guessing a gold ally of some type. But of course, the maker of the video would not accept such a simple explanation. Better luck next time, dude.
JediLDS 7 months ago
@JediLDS - well, in the Book of Mormon, Nephi claims he made the plates out of gold himself. Are you calling Nephi a liar? And if it was some "gold ally" (did you mean "alloy"?) as you claim, please share with us your expertise on the subject of metallurgy technology that was available in 7th century BC, so we can all know how Nephi created this amazing light weight gold alloy that would become the Book of Mormon. Better luck next time Mor(m)on.
Stormspeace 6 months ago
@Stormspeace Actually, Nephi didn't claim that he made the plates out of gold. To wit: "And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people."
(1 Nephi 19:1) See also Mormon 8:5 where Moroni laments that he doesn't have ore to make more plates.
JediLDS 6 months ago
As for the backpacking - I do a lot of hiking. 20 lbs is seriously not a big deal. I could jog three miles here in Colorado with that much if I felt my safety depended on it. And I'm not even in great shape.
sdr24 8 months ago
The weight stats here assume that the book was made of a solid block of pure gold. Anyone who has actually handled pure gold knows that it is too soft to be used for much of anything - certainly not for making pages you could write on. The plates would have to have been made of a much lighter alloy, and there would have been air space between the pages. The weight would likely have been closer to 60 pounds. A common weight carried by modern backpackers on long treks.
sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 but Joe clearly says they were gold. pure gold and the whitnesses all testified to that. nice try but no
enchantedsummer08 8 months ago
@enchantedsummer08 Yeah? So what? Did Joseph run some chemistry tests on it or something? Why should I take his word for it when obviously pure gold would be about as soft as putty in your hands? Obviously Joseph Smith was just using language common to the time - not making a scientific statement.
sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 im not sure I understand. are you saying you believe this or not. I am just saying he claims moroni the angel told him they were gold plates and where to find them. thats all. I was raised in the church... then I grew up and learned to think for my self.
enchantedsummer08 8 months ago
@enchantedsummer08 OK, that's great. So do some thinking for yourself. Pure 100% gold is completely worthless for fashioning anything of use to anyone. You have to mix it with other metal before you can use it. The less other metal you use, the softer the gold is. So obviously the plates, if they existed in the shape described by Joseph and other eyewitnesses, would have been not 100% gold - no matter what convenient un-scientific terminology people used to describe them.
sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 Joe's dad hefted the plates and he said they be about 30 lbs. Others say Joe carried the plates with him for a period of time, during the time of translation. Regardless, 30 lbs or Joe walking with them, they weighed something and running with even 20 lbs at full speed home is, like most things Mormon, a bad joke, and too heavy a burden to carry in ones truth basket. Especially with the limp Joe had.
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Only a pampered American not used to doing physical labor would say that hefting 20 pounds (or 30 - or even 60) for a period of time is unlikely. You can not only heft that amount, you can run with it for short periods of time - limp or no limp. In the Korean War, North Korean soldiers marched, walked and ran up and down hills carrying loads like that all day. And they did it on only two rice balls a day. And they were only 2/3 Joseph Smith's size.
sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 Hmmm, interesting. Those north Koreans may have hefted heavy loads but they didn't run 3 miles with 30+ lbs and with mean Americans chasing them the whole way home. Maybe fighter jets chased them. And ignoring the limping issue, and Koreans being 67% of Joes size, (Joe was shaped like a rice ball in some of his pictures), I think it's unreasonable to believe Joe could run full speed 3 miles, period, much less with a 30 lb sack of potato's. (full speed is technically approx 6 min miles)
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Modern American trail runners jog with 20 pound camelbacks over rough trails in the mountains for the better part of an ENTIRE DAY. Average weight load for a Roman legionnaire was 60 lbs. The average daily march distance for a Roman legion was 30 miles. Modern backpackers cover larger distances with that load. It's not at all implausible for a strong man used to walking everywhere to be able to run/jog 3 miles with 20-60 lbs. We only think it unlikely because we're sissies.
sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 I'm not sure what to say about those Mod'Mericats running w/ 20lbs of camel backs. Why camels? the fat is high calorie?? You might be overstating it with the Romans, they were runts, 5'5 ish, 140 lbs.. Corn bred, fed and wed. And they weren't walking with 60lbs, either. Mostly they killed, raped, had a big sacrifice, raped, slept, walked, burned, poisoned, raped...repeat. But Joe was no warrior, he was a lover. And long is "All day"?? Because I could run a marathon in just under 3 hrs
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Here's a quote directly from Wikipedia on Roman legions:
"To keep these baggage trains from becoming too large and slow, Marius had each infantryman carry as much of his own equipment as he could, including his own armour, weapons and 15 days' rations, for about 25–30 kg (50–60 pounds) of load total.... The soldiers were nicknamed Marius' Mules because of the amount of gear they had to carry themselves."
sdr24 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism As for Joseph Smith, he was a hired farm laborer in addition to all the other stuff he did. He spent his entire youth clearing tree stumps plowing land, and various other physical hard labor. And like most farm folk those days, he walked everywhere. Doing a 20 or 30 mile walk in a day wasn't considered unusual for those people. But considering how badly you butchered the history on the Romans, I guess it's understandable you don't have much background on Joseph either.
sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 Odd, that's not what his neighbors said of him. I have Arrian's "Alexander the Great", while not a Roman he did a lot of walking. killing, etc. An army lives on it's stomach. No canned food then. They used wagons and slaves. Carrying 40% of your body weight is a lot of tiring work. I wonder why Alexander didn't average 30 a day. Nor did the Army marching on Utah in 1857. But you say the Romans did and American trail runners? Could you flesh that out a tad. a source, perhaps.
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@IExposeMormonism Depends which sources you are reading about Joseph Smith. You seem to be going off the Hurlburt affidavits - which have been long discredited as unreliable.
As for the Roman source - try Wikipedia. Type "Roman Legion." The quote was lifted verbatim from that article. And the issue of whether Romans pillaged is utterly irrelevant to how much they carried on the march.
sdr24 8 months ago
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sdr24 8 months ago
@sdr24 make that "How long is all day, because I could run....." which is about a 7 minute mile, 8.5 mph for 3 hours. no prize but not easy. running 2 miles in 12 minutes makes you less than 1/100.
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
this video has long been refuted
LDS4Life71 8 months ago
@LDS4Life71
How so? When I'm given a choice between believing a researched argument backed up with evidence (as in the above video) or believing the outlandish fairy tales of a known habitual liar and con-man like Smith, it's pretty obvious to me which one I should believe. This con-man Smith also "prophesied" that the world would end in 1891, and it amazes me that his brainwashed cult still believes anything he ever said.
StaceyC123 8 months ago
@LDS4Life71 How so? show me where to look at the counter arguments that actually convince me otherwise becauae as far as i know this stuff is pretty legit information how can you just look away from the truth like that are really so dogmatically mormon you can't see anything wrong with it? or is it pride you can't see hurt? whatever the case is this stuff is real acknowledge it or not but people deserve the truth.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan Like Elijah of old, I laugh at the modern priests of Baal, and challenge you to answer. Maybe your god is schizo, and answering himself. Try to get him to speak up, because the silence is deafening. The Mormons are right.
LDS4Life71 8 months ago
@LDS4Life71 Mormonism is actually the walking dead the doctrine has been debunked already the only reason it still existists is because it has millions of dollars to support it, Your quote is very silly and means nothng to me your world view is logically impossible and in total contradiction to the christian faith from my perspective i would be embarressed to be mormon again. All you have is self testimony but with no way to prove its legit outside of your own mind so testimony doesn't work.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@wachnathan You draw whatever lame excuses for conclusions you want, but you'll never understand fully the words of God, nor do you recognize His voice. I really feel sorry for you.
LDS4Life71 8 months ago
@LDS4Life71 Its a claim of knowledge not a excuse your book of mormon is a fabracation spin off of christianty and i know it was a con man that was known for fabracating wild stories wrote your book not a god why do you refute that which has already been proven? I can't see why you defend a dying belief system the evidence against it is overwhelming but ok what ever you say. If you all talk with god personally then why do you have a prophet? this just doesn't make sense at all.
wachnathan 8 months ago
@LDS4Life71 <Maybe Mormon god has such a cacophony of other gods squaking around him it's impossible to hear a damn thing. Schizo is being split off and Mormon gods are a bunch of split up Babyonian-Egyptian-Greek nightmares. History is nightmare to awaken from and the history of Mormonism is bloody in its "getting".
IExposeMormonism 8 months ago
@wachnathan Your book of mormon has failed the test Ive watched the videos of mormon apoligists admit the book is based on faith not on history but yet they spin the mayan culture around as if its biblical ya thats not lying is it, even your prophet Hinkley admitted to believing in a "fabracated" different version of Jesus then the actually historical one. When i listen to mormons debate all we hear is exuses not evidence this will not work in a atheistic growing nation.
wachnathan 8 months ago
I wonder what was a more difficult task. Lifting heavy gold plates out of a hole in the ground or pushing the two pillars apart so the temple fell down about Samson?
listonu 8 months ago
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
999LDS 9 months ago
Why is it so hard to believe? Do you not think God could be watching out for him, as well as giving him the extra strength to carry the plates?
Sketchtool 11 months ago
@Sketchtool Of course, that's what happened god gave him the extra strength to carry the plates. Hmmm, I wonder why god didn't give him the extra strength to outrun his captors who shot him in the prison cell.
......
Oh wait, let me guess, it's because god works in mysterious ways and it is not for us to question.
.....
I hope one day you will realize how faulty your logic is and how blind you are.
MACKATTACK1970 10 months ago
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@MACKATTACK1970 I say the same to you, "I hope one day you will realize how faulty your logic is and how blind you are."
Why did God give Moses the ability to part the sea, and yet not find their destination for 40 years? Who knows.
Sketchtool 10 months ago
Thanks for your video! Here are a couple other good videos to watch:
The Bible Vs. The Book Of Mormon (Complete) /watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw
DNA vs. the Book of Mormon /watch?v=6GF_SxbPLb0
rickgigliotti 11 months ago
Yep, only religious people would believe in a 600 page book written on gold plates that would have required a box car to store them in! If you buy that I'll sell you my lead slab version of "The Lord Of The Rings" !
blarson666 11 months ago 8
god helped him lift them
mrumsower 11 months ago
i thought they said he used magnets. but they dont attract gold
akahina666 1 year ago
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CounterCultureLives 1 year ago 7
@CounterCultureLives how about including a pair of Masonic magic underwears and green apron to make the kit complete?
brandenburg2388 7 months ago
@brandenburg2388 That's available in our "Reformed Reformed Egyptians for Dummies!!", which can be purchased for $349.99 + 10% of your gross. It is only available to the worthy brethren who have already purchased "Reformed Egyptian For Dummies!!
CounterCultureLives 6 months ago
@CounterCultureLives lol, now I can see how the LDS became filthy rich by parasiting on their gullible members.
brandenburg2388 6 months ago
@CounterCultureLives Ever heard of Short Hand? Ever seen Japanese characters written in English or Koreancharacters changed to english?,Three examples of reformed writng. space on metal is valuable seems logical. Have your fun, to bad you miss the message. Magic rocks? I guess Moses staff didn't turn into a snake.
scottwins2 4 months ago
@CounterCultureLives Ever seen Japanese characters written in English? Ever heard of Short Hand? Two examples of Reformed writing.
scottwins2 4 months ago
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CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
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@scottwins2 Wrote: "Ever seen Japanese characters written in English? Ever heard of Short Hand? Two examples of Reformed writing."
Last time I checked, neither Japanese characters, nor short hand required any magic rocks or a hat to be correctly interpreted.
Gotta' give credit where credit is due, though. You ARE amusing!!
CounterCultureLives 4 months ago
I found gold plates my self. but no one believes me. but the angel that came to me in my dream told me to pawn them , so I did. now I have a gold package on my new Corvette.
onstageagain 1 year ago
@onstageagain So, you went from being a "prophet" to a "profit"!!
CounterCultureLives 1 year ago
@CounterCulture Lives
I'm gonn-a tell you about the gold plates. A small replica of these gold plates I found can cure anything from cancer to bankruptcy. You're going to see restoration, you're gon-a see miracles in your life. The price? It's free, absolutely free! " FREE' but that promise of Godly miracles comes with a earthly request. 750 of MY followers ARE turning over all worldly goods for the privilege of joining. I invite you to do the same. Don't pass this up.
onstageagain 1 year ago
i found some golden plates in my back yard too!
but god said i cant show you guys...
can I be the next prophet now? :D
BowToMySkill 1 year ago
Actually, you DON'T understand; I'm far from being an atheist. There are parts of The Bible that are supported through credible scientific evidences, but The Bible is far from infallible.
As for BoM?? There are no credible, objectively reviewed evidences to support any part of BoM.
As for "faith"? Truth is based in fact; faith is based upon fervent feelings. Fervent feelings, no matter how fervent they may be, do not make for a foundation of knowledge.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I'm glad you're not an atheist. Sorry for the misconception. I assumed as much when you said that some of the prophets were fictional. I think that a belief in God is a foundation for happiness.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end I'm not saying that the "prophets" were necessarily "fictional". i am saying that the stories of the prophets are not scientifically supported. Was there a "Moses"?? There may well have been; but the stories of those "prophets" have been adulterated by man, and convoluted in such a way as to empower the few over the masses. There IS credible evidence of a migration, but not of a people fleeing. There ARE credible evidences which support certain parts of The Bible; not so with BoM.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257
Joseph Smith was in prison for destroying private property, a printing press, which is documented in the History of the Church, which was published by the LDS.
Destroying printing presses is a violation of the 1st amendment, (i.e freedom of press)
His arrest was justified, and not false.
endofus 1 year ago
@endofus I agree with you about SmYth's arrest being justified. My issue is that he was denied due process of law. I believe that he should have been given a fair trial, allowed to present a defense, and I think the odds are quite high that he would have been rightly convicted. A fair trial would have also put to rest LDS's claims of SmYth's so-called "martyrdom".
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@endofus Joseph Smith was falsely arrested, falsely imprisoned and murdered without even the remote possibility of due process of law. The courts would have found Joseph Smith and the City Council innocent. The Nauvoo Expositor was declared a public nuisance, and was destroyed lawfully in an orderly way without riot or confusion. The libelous, corrupt paper was destroyed lawfully in the name of freedom of religion which is a right of every American. History of the Church p. 460 and 466.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end All any of us can do is speculate upon the outcome of Smith's trial, which underscores the importance of letting the judicial system run it's course. Smith deserved a fair trial.
As for the expositor "being libelous & corrupt", that is a matter of opinion. The rights of a free press are every bit as sacred as freedom of religion.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I agree with you in one way and disagree about another. A free press and freedom of religion are equally sacred in general. However, I respectfully disagree that it’s a matter of opinion that the Expositor was libelous & corrupt.
Religious freedom trumped free speech in this case as witnesses and authorities found the Nauvoo Expositor to be malicious, existing solely to deprive Mormons of their freedom of religion, even their very lives! The paper was rightfully destroyed, p.496.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end The Expositor's revelation of Smith's practicing of polygamy, all while Smith was condemning the practice of polygamy , was not libelous. The defining standard for libel is that those accusations must be made "with knowing and reckless disregard for the truth". As far as The Expositor being "malicious, existing solely to deprive Mormons of their freedom"?? Exposing Smith's polygamy deprived no one of their religious freedom.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I just had an epiphany:: Mormonism is Smythology. I also found reference for 30lbs of lead. I mean gold. Joe's dad said so. In "Brigham Young", 1925, M R Werner, ....Said he hefted the plates and they be 'bout 30lbs... If so, chubby Joe could have jogged home. With a limp, as he had one. 200lbs of 25yr old could have jogged it. But not run it. And he was a pudge. But when we are given the dimensions and weight they don't add up. Just like Mormonism!!
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
@IExposeMormonism Just so you know, it is spelled, "Smith." An epiphany is a sudden perception of reality. The reality is that the Church is built on rock solid foundation of Christ's gospel. An eye witness saw the physique of Joseph Smith as, "tall in stature and splendidly proportioned. His whole being radiated strength and energy." He was not without faults, as we all are afflicted with faults. but his teachings were true. The plates argument is a diversion from more relevant matters.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end The "plates argument" is far from a diversion; it is only one of many problematic areas for LDS. The depiction of Smith as a "strong, hard working farm boy" is one presented by LDS. Even if he was strong, even if the (tumbaga) plates" weighed only 60#s, the story of Smith running "at the top of his speed" with a limp, for three miles, all while being chased by "attackers", is still a stretch; without the Mormon miracle mojo, it falls apart very quickly.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end Must I spell out reformed Egyptian? It's Smith and mythology flopped onto each other, Smythology. It came to me in a flash and I felt good so I know it's true.
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
@IExposeMormonism Actually, it's Smith, mythology, and the writings of Solomon Spaulding, combined with the rituals of Freemasonry, and plagiarized texts from The Bible. Smith had a reputation for being a gifted story teller.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@IExposeMormonism Without the shuffling of the conch shells in "The Mormon Truth Shell Game", the fables of LDS fall apart very quickly. Even if the "plates" weighed only 60#'s, the story simply fails to withstand objective analysis or critical scrutiny. I could take the most fit high school football players or track stars, give them 60#'s worth of weight, in a very compact space, and have them run on an even track "at the top of their speed" for three miles. They wouldn't last long at all.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 In regard to the weight of the plates, whether or not they could be carried, please see - How Witnesses Described the Gold Plates. It is one page, concise, contains eyewitness accounts, and puts the argument to rest.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Plural marriage was legal. Further, it was a sacred calling, given to just over 2%, and never generally practiced throughout the Church. It was a great responsibility reserved for the righteous and responsible.
Sadly, the few that abused the law and trust gave enemies grounds for ridicule and slander against the whole Church.
In the case of the Expositor, "freedom of the press" was a lie used to unite other haters. Mormons were found innocent of all charges not once, but twice.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end The issue isn't the legality of plural marriages; the issue is that Smith was condemning it, while lying about it. The Expositor was powerless to restrict the expression of religious freedom. Any orders to destroy it's press, regardless of who gave them, violated freedom of the press. This is another classic example of LDS's attempts to justify censorship. The burning of The Expositor was only one of several crimes Smith was accused of committing. He deserved a fair trial.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Thank you for remarking that Joseph deserved a fair trial. The mob was not so concerned about justice as they were haters that clamored for Mormon blood. The Expositor was not powerless. It printed lies and inflammatory threats that were a continuance of the mob action suffered in Missouri. The City Council legally declared the paper a nuisance and had it legally destroyed by officials in an orderly manner. The community was in agreement and relieved by its destruction.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
MsEndure2end funny. Try 25%. Let's be strong here. Have you read your "Nauvoo Endowment Companies, a Documentary History"? I have. It's by Mormons. Seems Lucinda Morgan Harris, the widow of William Morgan,Well, she married Joe. Before and After he was kilt. She married Harris for time and Joe for Eternity. With John D Lee and Briggy as witnesses. From pure Mormon sources. I posted it. I wonder how Lucinda felt loosing 2 husbands to ritual Freemason murders. Everyone at Carthage was a Freemason.
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
@IExposeMormonism I read The History of the Church, and The Restored Church for starters. May I assume by your name, and your casual use of "Joe," "Briggy," and "kilt" that your negative opinions about the Church are already fixed? An enlightened understanding of how sacred priesthood callings work in the Church would allow you to appreciate the truth about plural marriage. The lie that polygamy was an orgy was begun by a few wicked men. Good men like Joseph and Brigham were respected and loved.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
Endure: "Already fixed" based on 4yrs of continuous reading. reading based on 4 yrs of continuous book buying. over 325, over $30K. It all started with Juanita. Most folks wouldn't see what I see.I was stunned. open mouthed astonished. I saw occult all over Mormonism& the Mountain Meadows Massacre. So I started by buying Mormon books! Yes. And others. Oh, my. Freemasonry, Jewish Kaballah, magic! This help explain the strange prayer circles and oaths I read of. I posted my collection @300 books.
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
The common connection of Mormonism to Eleusisian fertility cult is based on the materialism and sexuality permeating Mormonism. Like in pictures, where some poor lass is stretched over the temple alter to be blood atoned. You wont believe it; I know it happened. In Nauvoo, too. It happened "at home" to. Too many testimonies of, say, a wife sitting on her husbands lap and he slits her throat! Or a hubby gets same for adultery. Mormonism is Old World Religion, to use Josephs words. Not Christian.
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
@IExposeMormonism I am truly sorry about your disillusionment of the Church. I can sense that you have tried your very best, and I admire your dedication. I hope you will allow me to tell you that my feelings and education regarding the Church are quite the opposite of what you have shared. I believe with all my heart, might, mind, and strength that the Church is Christ's true church, along with the priesthood, as a result of real study. I believe in Gifts of the Spirit and mine is to believe.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end ............yer kiddin...
deadmancunt 1 year ago
@IExposeMormonism I have been trying to send you a friend invite but cannot. I enjoy the work you do so far as i have read.
hexusziggurat 1 year ago
@hexusziggurat I don't know why it didn't work...maybe try and subscribe? and Thanks. I found a reference in "Brigham Young" 1925, MR Werner who says Joe sr said he had hefted those plates and they were about 30lbs. But Joe had a bad leg and a small limp, being a tad lazy, and running 3 miles with 30lbs, no....Jogging, say 9 minutes a mile, maybe. But he says he ran. And if guys were chasing him he wold have to run. So, if we say 30lbs, Joe is still a liar
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end
Exposing Smiths illegal polygamy, and was being printed by exmormons. It was not slander because it was true. Destroying private property is illegal , so Joseph Smith was a criminal who was arrested with due process. This was not his first arrest either, In New York he was found guilty of being a disorderly persen stemming from treasure digging. He would charge people money and tell them he could find buried treasure (which he couldn't) and was convicted (i.e he is a con man)
endofus 1 year ago
@endofus Joseph said when falsely arrested: [It is not for crime of any description that I and my brethren are thus continually persecuted and harassed by our enemies...You thirst for blood, and nothing but my blood will satisfy you. I prophesy in the name of the Lord you shall witness scenes of blood and sorrow to your entire satisfaction...those people that desire this great evil upon us shall...seek peace but not be able to find it. Gentlemen, you will find what I have told you to be true.]
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2end Just as an aside, MsEndure2end, it's constructive for us to engage in a civil discourse here. I've seen so many 'discussions" quickly digress to petty name calling and mindless insults.
As the Late, Great, Speaker of The House Sam Rayburn (D-Texas) admonished his colleagues on Capitol Hill, "Disagree without being disagreeable". It's good that we are able to discuss our differences in that spirit. I commend you for your contributions in helping to make this discourse constructive.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
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@Outlaw1257 Merry Christmas!
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Thanks for the compliment. Your civil attitude reminded me of something that the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said, "There is so great a need for civility and mutual respect among those of differing beliefs and philosophies. We can and must be respectful toward those with whose teachings we may not agree. We must be willing to defend the rights of others who may become the victims of bigotry." I enjoy discussions with people such as you who show good manners!
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
@MsEndure2en, I wish that had prevailed at Mountain Meadows... I was thinking, JS story is he was alone on a hill He threw his pillow case over his shoulder, it was dark out, late, he ran. He had been out digging in the dirt, and his girl friend was with him sometimes. Scared, in his twenties, he ran to his parents home where he felt safe. If we remove the gold plates story things start to make sense. Which is a good thing, Mormonism so often fails to make sense until we remove a character or 2
IExposeMormonism 1 year ago
Popeye and Superman Are fictional characters ..... So are Moroni, Mormon, Lehi, Nephi, Laman, and all of the other characters in The Book of Mormon. As for Moses?? There is no evidence for Moses, the ten plagues that fell upon Egypt or the exodus that supposedly took place at the time Moses supposedly lived, nor is there any credible evidence of talking donkeys or talking / burning bushes. It's all oft repeated folklore blindly accepted as truth, nothing more.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 I understand now that you believe that the scriptures are fictional. I stand with the opposite view. While I respect your right to believe according to your conscience, I want to witness to you that I confidently and completely believe in God. As opposed to blind faith, my faith is a result of prayer, study, and practice. While I have this faith, I simply can't give it to you, or even convince you. The only way to have faith is to have the desire, and work for it a little.
MsEndure2end 1 year ago
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Outlaw1257 1 year ago
Doing the LDS Sidestep, BishopMahroni?? I mentioned nothing about SmYth's polygamy, nor his endeavors as a "treasure hunter"; but you conveniently sidestepped the issue that I did address. THe Kinderhook Plates?? That is another one of many problematic issues for any person who studies LDS / Bom / SmYth, from a detached perspective, but I never mentioned mentioned that, either. Another matter worthy of note is that SmYth walked with a limp following his surgery as a child.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
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Are you kidding me? More of the same regurgitated anti-Mormon lies, twisted truths and out of context garbage. If you really want to know the truth about Christ's church go to mormon.org. You wouldn't go to a car mechanic to remove your appendix would you? Then why have such a viscous anti-Mormon teach you about the Lord's church? Go to the source.....go to the truth....mormon.org
BishopMahroni 1 year ago
Umm...so the dude in the video actually saw the plates and tried to lift them? What a tard....besides what does it matter how heavy they were...God could make them as light as he wants to suit his purpose. Besides if you want to get technical gold can be hammered extremely thin..so who's to say how "thick" the pages were AND after being "written" upon how thick they became because of the distortion...AND J.S. might not be sure what the other 2/3rds of the plates were made of as they were sealed.
BishopMahroni 1 year ago
@BishopMahroni Your argument, even with the "tumbaga" factor, still fails, Bill McKeever has discussed these matters at length on other vids. Even with the "tumbaga" excuse, those "plates" would have still weighed about 60lbs. with very little weight distribution, Now, put them in a cloth bag, and RUN about 3 miles (over uneven ground) with it, with three men chasing you.
So now, we have the Mormon "Poppey" factor to excuse away the discrepancies.
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 Umm....it makes me laugh how hard and to what great lengths some vapid anti-Mormons will go to to try and dis-proove our faith. Regardless what you, or some learned scholar has to say about the weight of the plates, whether ot not J.S. was actually married to 42? women, whether the kinderhook plates were fake or not....it makes no difference if J.S. was a treasure hunter or not.....Our faith in God is what matters and no amount of worldly opinions or facts will change that! Ever.
BishopMahroni 1 year ago
@BishopMahroni Ahhhh.... The unbridled arrogance of Mormons, mixed with a healthy dose of testiphony. Facts fail, substance fails, yet you ridicule those who dare to study LDS without the Mobot horseblinders??
Oh, well...... I guess it beats thinking!!
Outlaw1257 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 McKeever's last sentence here is: "Unfortunately, a lot of people DO believe this to be a true story."
There are people, I've found, who'll believe whatever they want to believe, no matter how far-fetched or implausible, and will defend the indefensible to the end. In other words, "Don't confuse me with facts; my mind's already made up."
wannawatchu66 1 year ago
@Outlaw1257 These Mormons are the biggest suckers - they will never listen to logic as they are already brainwashed.
Where are these golden plates now - did he lose them?
Joseph made the perfect cult - he can sleep with any woman/girl he wants to, no on can question him, and he gets 10% of everyone's income. The problem is finding people dumb enough to believe him - obviously he found some real fools.
TheSnoopy1750 1 year ago