Civil libertarianism is great but economic libertarianism is just fucking stupid. Global capitalism has led to the destruction of the United State's economy.
@LearningAsIGo80 "Global capitalism has led to the destruction of the United State's economy." Please explain. So many people post such bold statements on Youtube and never explain their reasoning.
@whothaplaya The breaking up of private unions along with low tariffs helped create the outsourcing problem in the United States. There is no representation for labor rights in this country anymore. I mean why make something in the US when you can use slave labor under the guise of "free trade" in India or China?
@LearningAsIGo80 "The breaking up of private unions" Unions were part of the reason there is so much outsourcing, because unions create artificially high wages. The main reason for outsourcing is high regulation of business, taxes and so much red tape to get through to get a business started. In the 1930 the US had the cheapest goods and the highest wages in the world.
@whothaplaya Actually private unions helped push for legislation that kept higher tariffs. I love how people think it is acceptable to use slave labor for "cheaper" products. Are you forgetting that private unions are what gave us the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week.
@LearningAsIGo80 You're sinking your own argument here. I'm not sure if you realize it.
Yes, unions were chiefly responsible for the 8-hour day and 40-hour work week. What you seem to be missing is that both "accomplishments" indirectly contributed to the outsourcing problem. Many workers overseas will work longer hours for less pay, which obviously lowers production costs. I think that was Whothaplaya's point.
@DetCrockett7 So why don't we just go back to slavery I mean that would really lower the production cost? I mean why pay people at all when you could just throw them a few bread crumbs? I think you are missing my point. If we had a government that was for the people they would raise tariffs high enough so that businesses wouldn't go over seas to use slave labor. We could still have a living wage with that.
@LearningAsIGo80 It's impossible to miss someone's point if you directly acknowledge it.
Slavery isn't truly comparable here. A slave has no rights. A low-paid worker still does. A slave MUST work for free. A low-paid worker still has the option to look for better opportunity.
@DetCrockett7 When everyone becomes a low paid worker you don't have any rights it's called wage slavery. Do you think people in India have any rights when they are forced to work 14 hour days or be thrown out onto the streets? You anarcho capitalists just deny history.
@DetCrockett7 When everyone becomes a low paid worker you don't have any rights it's called wage slavery. Do you think people in India have any rights when they are forced to work 14 hour days or be thrown out onto the streets? You anarcho capitalists just deny history.
@DetCrockett7 wage slaves at the lowest rungs of society earn less than slaves ie slave master had to buy slaves and pay for boarding food shelter try earning that on minimum wage job in america pro union and proud ake america if it was not for the government in directly subsidizing low wage earners with food stamps earned income and tax credits the low wage earner at his her pay often times would starve or suffer malnutrition
@proudleft It's "proudleft" policies that are largely responsible for creating the very problem you're citing. Why are they're so many "wage slaves" to begin with? Because "the man" keeps them down? To a degree, sure. But a lot of it is also because, for one thing, many of these "wage slaves" have too many children--thereby oversaturating the unskilled labor market. This creates a perpetual drag on the economy, and particularly, the taxpayers.
Many of them have so many children out of wedlock, without a stable family structure, and they do this, sometimes, because they receive more welfare that way (depending upon their local jurisdiction). This practice makes these people even poorer than they otherwise would have been.
But even aside from that, the oversaturation of the labor market itself is a primary factor in driving down workers' wages. It's supply and demand, like any other aspect of economics.
I can't help but notice, but don't get me wrong, I love Penn jillette he's awesome, that there always seem to be rich people holding these views. More free market, less taxes etc. You'd rarely ever hear a person destitute talking like this would you? I wonder why.....
@DetCrockett7 Right so someone with cerebral palsy or multiple sclerosis is destitute because a lack of self reliance not due to the fact that it is impossible for them to work. You economic libertarians need to grow a brain.
@LearningAsIGo80 No, you need to grow a brain, and learn how to read. (You people on YouTube always seem to take people's comments out of context.)
The key word in my comment is "usually." Obviously, someone with a disability is a special case. Read someone's comment properly before you criticize it.
@DetCrockett7 The person is in that position due to lack of opportunity. And opportunity is a prerequisite for freedom. So poor people are actually, not free.
Not usually. I've been poor myself--and in a lot of debt at the same time--so I speak from experience. A relative lack of opportunity sometimes is the case, but the individual's own efforts--or lack thereof--is the usual impediment to their own progress.
@DetCrockett7 Yes, but 1.8 billion people in the world arent poor because they choose to be poor. They are in a state of destitution and do not have freedom. You have been poor in a country where opportunity is, so you cant say that people in Zimbabwe are free, in the same way as the West is.
@Faerlon123 Well, yes I can, actually, at least in a way. The problem with Zimbabwe, and many other Third World nations, is that they have populations that reproduce too frequently in relation to their economic health. So a lot of the problem--their destitution--is created by their reluctance to improve their own lot.
Secondly, Zimbabwe doesn't enjoy the same degree of political freedom that we do in the West, as you said. So the problem here is their lack of libertarianism, which doesn't support what you're saying.
Penn's last lines say it all: to be a libertarian is to regard people with trust and love. Otherwise the logical choice for those who hate and fear is authoritarianism, whether Liberal or Conservative.
Love this video and Penn.....and I'm not a Libertarian. Wish more people discussed things instead of trying to win by making the other person look stupid. Overgeneralizations...sigh.
I am a Libertarian because I prefer freedom to enslavement. It baffles me that this requires an explanation. Yet, even when explained, it meets violent opposition. For that reason, I'm beginning to lean toward an absolute dictatorship with myself in charge. I will force people to be free at the point of a gun. What an exquisite irony.
ron paul=libertarian=david koch=tea party=free markets (ie worship of the market, instead of seeing that it's people that provide for people, not the market [which exists so the rich can exist], and no one is independent)=the recent housing crisis=free reign for the rich=wage slavery or homelessness for everyone else
Support Ron Paul go to Americans elect.org and vote to get Ron Paul a second window of opportunity to run in the 2012 Presidential elections. Americans Elect is a legitimate group looking to get a third party elected they are doing the hard work for us with signatures and Paying to get on ballots .
We need to put out front a canadate that has not been funded by Big banks, Lobbyists, or billionaires trying their hand at social engineering for personal gain Ron Paul is that man
Penn Jillette. Why I am a Libertarian: Because I am smart and successful. Fuck you if you were born stupid. Fuck you if you are not aggressive. Fuck you if can't smell a profit and wring the neck of everyone who gets in the way.
@ptolemyauletesXII I don’t think that’s what libertarianism is about that at all. Its about freedom poor or rich dum or smart we all would benefit from a freer society. You are the same as every one else except for a few variations in your life your not any better or worse.
@spec24 Thank you for the brilliant, insightful, cutting, witty, erudite, eloquent, yet concise, rebuttal of my point. At least you spelled 'you're' correctly.
Penn should run for governor or congressman of Nevada. We need more people like him in our government. There is a Cato Institute, plenty of libertarian thinkers, libertarian speakers, but they don't DO very much. We have too many conservatives & liberals running the country. Let's get some libertarians in there. PLEASE, Penn, run for office.
@qwexas We shouldn't label the argument as "libertarian vs republican vs democrat". You could just as easily be a left libertarian or right libertarian. What we should distinguish is "statist vs libertarian". That is the real division.
Person with a critique of Libertarianism resorts to ad hominen attacks, because they lack the intellectual ability to make a cogent point, because their argument is mostly emotional and lacking in rationality? Impossible!
@Shyhalu government and collectivism is what made slavery in this country possible. Government made extermination of the Jews in Europe possible. More often than not the atrocities committee in human history have been the direct result of big government and collectivism.
@jpete3027666 Its also what made slavery near impossible today. In a free market, I could buy my own personal army and exterminate the jews regardless. and it would be OK because supplied troops are meeting my demand to murder. You are a dumbass focusing on the bad things the government can do while forgetting the good things it prevents.....all the while forgetting that ANYTHING GOES in a free market society and acting as if thats better.
Libertarians are definitely more open minded than other folks. Ask people with mainstream political beliefs and their response is always more government control and more spending are necessary to improve quality of life. They never consider the possibility of more freedom and less government solving problems. Libertarians to me celebrate the individual on many levels and this is what we have lost in this country.
The LP used to be a party of principle when Harry Browne was representing them but now they have compromised their positions and have the likes of Bob Barr representing them.
First thing we could do is legalize marijuana. We'd have less crime from dealers, incarcerate much less people, save more money, and have more freedom. The gov has no authority to arrest you for non-violent acts towards yourself. It's like arresting you for eating too much junk food.
That's true, Penn. There's very few if any people that I've convinced or persuaded by being a dick and telling them they're wrong and why they're wrong. Although I, myself, am open to debate and include any new information into my views, most people simply don't do this. Any debate they consider a personal attack. I assume Penn's approach is more like 'Oh, well, I see it THIS way' instead of 'Fuck you, you're wrong.'
I'm libertarian but I don't like Penn and the CATO institute crowd. They are the flip side of the "theocons." Theocons insist on religion as being a centerpiece of their politics. Penn insists on Atheism as a centerpiece for being a libertarian.
MITCHA002 GIVE IT UP. The guy is a statist - you are debating a brick wall. Some of us get what you are saying just leave it at that. Best of luck to you.
@jpollard117 You are a statist too you fucking idiot, you just think the government should do as little as possible....like preserve individual freedom or uphold contractual agreements.
@Shyhalu You are so smart. You seem to know everything about everyone. I do not know why those duties could not be performed by private entities. We already have private police and courts. Why does everything have to be government - does government really have to pick up my trash? Do I really need government to get married or divorced? Statist is a perjorative used to imply natzi ideals that you openly spew. You have even wished death on me for disagreeing with you - pure stalin
@jpollard117 I don't wish death on you for disagreeing with me, I wish death on you because you OPENLY ADMIT you are corrupt scum thats happily ruining the world we work hard to put together...and then you have the nerve to tell me you know whats the best market system to use. You are old, useless trash that sucks dick. If society ended, you'd be entirely useless. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I'm a loser.
@Shyhalu You are a ranting loon. I never said I did anything corupt. I am a straight up law abiding tax paying citizen. You just want to make up shit to justify your crazy ass comments and profanity. You are a self important idiot. Why don't you just tell everyone your ideal presidential pick so your true vision is more clear. Occupy my ball sac.
@jpollard117 I'm just going to follow his line of questioning through to the conclusion now, since he seems so convinced he has something unique or interesting to say I'm intrigued to see what he thinks he has.
@mitcha002 I dont have something unique or interesting to say, just like you (or the troll moron that doesnt know hes a statist) don't either. Its been said and brought up before with other tarts like you by other people. And you already know what I'm going to say. Anyway, by all means please tell me why I would want to live in a society where slavery is ok and allowed and I could be enslaved at any given time (see first comment)?
@Shyhalu I wouldn't want to live in that society. You falsely assume that this could and would exist just because of a free market environment. As I tried to explain to you before you proceeded down path of flawed reasoning, it only happens if people want it to happen, at that point it doesn't matter whether you have a free market or complete government control. What I was saying is that a free market is the best way for society to order itself, taking into account social conditions.
@mitcha002 - You falsely assume it won't, which is dumb as hell considering how profitable it is..look at what we buy today, cheap shit from the chinese we hate and stuff from factory farms that have dozens of chickens smushed into one cage. You falsely assume the general public is intelligent, educated, or even gives a shit. Sure, and slavery is one hell of a way for a society to order itself.
@mitcha002 I'm not going down the path of flawed reasoning, I'm living in reality and actually understand human nature...whereas here you are attempting to preach the "best" system, which you cant admit has severe flaws, that you admit could have slavery and it should be allowed. You are so desperate to fill those anti authority impulses that you'd be willing to become enslaved. You need to step back and realize that you just said slavery is ok and you wouldn't want to live in that society.
@Shyhalu OK, it seems you don't understand what you're talking about so I'm going to take a step back and explain some things.
1. No system is perfect.
2. Some systems are better than others.
3. The free market is the best of the systems that we have and know.
Slavery is possible BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, not the system, if slavery is going to happen NO SYSTEM CAN PREVENT IT, NOT THE FREE MARKET, NOT THE GOVERNMENT, ANYTHING. The free market is better than others at preventing it.
@mitcha002 1. Congrats on the realization. 2. No...just no, each system has its ups and downs. The only system that could be better than others is one that tries to take the best of all of them while minimizing the downsides, which is what we have today. 3. No......we do not live in a free market, we live in a hybrid market, which is what your dumbass does not seem to understand.
@mitcha002 2nd comment - The free market supports slavery you moron, we just went over this. The government can not prevent slavery 100% but the free market actively supports it since its very profitable. I just gave you two examples of people not giving a shit about morally fucked up things. Most people dont bother to research if they are buying factory farm produce or chinese sweatshop labor goods. Just like they wont give a shit about buying goods from a company using slave labor.
@mitcha002 third comment, the only difference between a government and a free market is that the government is an organized force that can act to prevent things like slavery. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that free market principles make us keep the government as opposed to anarchy. You think if "consumers" did not demand a government that we would still have it? Face it, even supply and demand are against you. Enough of us demand a government for there to be one to enforce our moral codes.
@mitcha002 Lastly, what makes you think that in the free market an organization can not grow so big as to act like the government we have now? You just said slavery should be allowed in a free market if the people want it...so what makes you think a big entity forcing its moral code and laws on people is not a part of the free market? Replace government with something like a militarized Goldman Sachs and you get the same thing.
@mitcha002 I specifically asked your dumbass IF it should happen, you said Yes.
I don't need to read anything to understand why you believe it won't happen, I'm content in believing you are a moron ignorant of reality. Tell me why people still purchase goods from factory farms mistreating animals or people working in sweatshops and I'll do some reading, until then you are an idiot devoid of any understanding of human nature.
@Shyhalu To understand why we believe it won't happen, or at least is much less likely to happen, you'll need to do a lot of reading. mises.org is a good place to start.
@mitcha002 anyway, we are back to square one. do YOU, personally, believe slavery should be allowed, YOUR OPINION HERE, in a free market society if a business can sustain itself by purchasing and selling slaves and etc? Yes or No.
@Shyhalu slavery is a violation of someone else's freedom so no!......an absurd example of free markets. Freedom of the individual is paramount in libertarianism.
@Shyhalu I'm going to try to explain this really slowly and simply for you because I've explained this very clearly for you and you don't seem to get it.
1. Things happen. That includes slavery, animal abuse, sweatshop labour. NO SYSTEM IS TO BLAME FOR HUMAN NATURE.
2. Some systems facilitate these things more than others. Let us not forget that all of these things have happened under GOVERNMENT, not MARKET conditions.
3. The free market is the best way to prevent these things.
@mitcha002 And I'm going to explain this really slowly to YOU. I AM A S K I N G FOR YOUR...YOU, MITCHA002, FOR YOUR FUCKING OPINION. I already understand what the fuck you are saying, your stupid ass doesnt get it that I dont give a shit about what you are saying because IRRELEVANT and its not an answer to what I am asking YOU. I don't give a shit about the free market right now, because theres no point if you cant answer a simple fucking question that requires YOUR OPINION.
@Shyhalu I've already given you my opinion. I'm not surprised you don't recall this because it's clear you've been ignoring most of what I've said. I'm against slavery. You don't understand what the free market is, you don't understand what you're arguing, so you don't see why this is a rational position.
I don't care what you have to say now, the only reason I responded to you was because I thought you might have something interesting to say, but you don't, so I will stop now.
@mitcha002 I'm aware you did, then you said you didn't. so which is it?? Don't care, jsut give it again then. I am not addressing the things you are saying because you keep trying to answer questions I am not asking you about, Good. You shut right the fuck up because I demonstrated the government is a product of supply and demand just like any free market company thats capable of enforcing rules with violence, jail, etc. How can I have anything interesting to say when you can't read for shit?
@mitcha002 ---Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said it should happen, only that it could or would happen if people want it to. -- Quote from you...that was the SPECIFIC queston I asked you for, you said yes, then you said this. I'd say make up your mind, but its apparent you dont have the capability to think for yourself or form an opinion, like most libertarians, especially when their OWN OPINION goes against the system they are supporting.
@Shyhalu As soon as humans are ready to give something up the free market will be the first to adapt to this change. In the US slavery was opposed by the majority for many years before GOVERNMENT eventually outlawed it. How long would this situation continue in a free market where companies have to respond to REAL supply and demand?
If you still don't get what I am saying then you are very stupid and I am wasting my time here
You are such a child. I don't claim to run you. And yes people run me. I'm just playin the game laid out in front of me. I didn't make the rules - people like you make the rules by voting for the current system. You think you know everything because you watch Jon stewart. Just read your own post - you are a ranting nutt job. Your post are standard statist blather. I don't wish death upon you - you are a total psycho. We know it is a hybrid system - You can't fix statism that is the point!
@jpollard117 When did I say I know everything? I'm a ranting nutjob......when you can't even remember what the hell you posted. Oh? You can't fix statism? Sounds like a mr. know it all claim. You support a hybrid system, yet you ask for a system thats non hybrid. Like I stated before, you retards don't understand what you support.
@Shyhalu Talk about reading comprehension! Obvious I am for a free market system. Obvious I understand are current system is a hybrid model with massive statism supported by people like you. Obvious I do very well in that system. Occupy wall street dude – thousands of waves of young people have tried to remake statism, always led by a pied piper chanting yes we can, years later only to find out why we couldn’t. Later you may go for the republician form of statism, same thing.
Where do you draw your line? Isn't there a point where you have read enough about government and politics to realise the whole thing is patently ridiculous and start to block certain things off? What about when you notice that 99% of arguments that non-libertarians make stem from the same few fallacious positions, should I keep listening? Perhaps you'll say yes, perhaps I will notice something different, but I don't think that position is economical.
@mitcha002 There is no line to draw. When you stop saying "I could be wrong" and stop listening to others, you turn into a biased deluded tart that hates the government no matter what it does and thinks your market system is perfect and has a answer for everything. This is generally when you are unable to list 10 things the government has done to promote society and think we live in a free market, instead of a hybrid one that regulates it so your coffee isn't poison and etc.
@Shyhalu And this is what meant in my reply when I said that most non-libertarian arguments stem from fallacious positions. You don't understand what the market is, you don't understand why everything the government does is abhorrent regardless, you make the common fallacy of thinking being against government regulation means being against regulation.
You don't know what you're arguing against, this is why I don't care what you think.
@mitcha002 Logic is not a fallacious position. I'm simply applying your logic to other situations to demonstrate its failure. No, you don't understand what the market is. We have a hybrid system. If you think everything the government does is abhorrent, then you make my case when I say you don't understand the government or the market. No, I dont. The problem is that YOU dont understand being FOR regulation IS BEING AGAINST A FREE MARKET. Its not a free market if there are regulations.
@Shyhalu I don't even really know where to begin with this. Everything you said in this reply is wrong. You don't have even the most basic grasp on libertarianism.
Like I said in my last reply, you don't know what you're arguing against.
@Shyhalu What's there to start? You've already made it clear that you don't understand what markets are. You've already got a course of questioning in mind, and I already have a pretty good idea of what you're going to say and why nothing I will be able to say will alter your flawed perception.
But if you must insist on doing this, I will answer your question and say 'yes'.
@Shyhalu I don't "support" regulation, I acknowledge that the market is self-regulating, be it through active competition, voluntary regulatory agencies or any other means.
@Shyhalu Corporations are government created or sanctioned entities. Corporations do not exist in a free market.
It is not a question of 'is it OK', the questions are; can it happen, will it happen, why is it happening? Slavery happens because people are OK with it, or OK with the entity that sanctions it. In the instance of slavery in America there was limited public approval for years before it was outlawed. The government is what allowed it to continue to exist.
@Shyhalu I'm not playing dumb, I answered your question, the answer is yes, however your flawed understanding of markets means that you will misinterpret the reasons for this being the case. The market is not some external entity, the market is simply everyone and everything and every action by everyone and everything. Slavery only happens if people want it to exist, the market can't be blamed for that and government doesn't stop this happening, and in fact enables it as I explained.
@mitcha002 No, you are trying to duck out of this by over explaining junk as opposed to giving a straightforward answer. So you say yes, the free market would allow for slavery if the people wanted it. Now, do YOU think (asking YOUR personal opinion here) that slavery is ok and should be allowed IF we had a free market system that had several businesses sustained by a demand for slavery. Yes or No.
@mitcha002 They belong together, because supply meets demand can be applied to anything. What doesn't belong together is enforced morality and the free market. How can you staunchly oppose slavery while staunchly supporting a market system that says its ok?
@Shyhalu But yet again you miss the point, you think it is a case of yes or no when it is anything but. You tie the two together when they do not belong. You do not know what the market is.
@Shyhalu This is why I said in earlier replies that I have no interest in debating you, your methodology is incorrect, the questions you are asking are irrelevant, and when I explain why this is the case you don't care, you just keep ploughing away at the same questions and you can't or won't change your opinions even when the basis for them has been shattered.
@mitcha002 We aren't debating, I don't give two shits if slavery can happen with a government or not. I know you can't give me an answer that doesn't compromise your position on the free market or makes you look like an immoral asshole. You know this too, and thus instead of giving me a simple concrete answer, you spout out paragraphs of excuses, misdirections, and things I'm not asking about. So, please answer the Q from the prior comment. Yes or No.
@Shyhalu If you were being intellectually honest you would acknowledge what I am saying, but you don't, I have answered your question but you keep ignoring it because you don't like the truth
@mitcha002 I'm not interested in your excuses and rationalization of slavery. And yes it does matter what you think, I'm not trying to bend reality, and what lies? You said yourself the free market would allow for slavery, so wtf is the lie there? I'm simply asking your dumbass yes/no questions about what you believe. And so far I have you believe the free market allows for slavery if thats what the people want, but you wouldnt take part of it (Again, I dont give a shit about the government)
@mitcha002 SO, with that being said and established....SHOULD slavery be allowed in a free market society that regulates itself if there are people willing to enslave others and enough people (Enough to sustain the "industry") willing to purchase said slaves? Yes or No?
@Shyhalu There is no free-market in a society where people are considered property. There is no free market if the individuals in society are not free.
@satanicmechanic11 Yes there is, a free market demands we let consumers decide whats right and what businesses should be allowed. You telling me otherwise is simply you enforcing your moral values onto the free market system, which is not a free market.
@Shyhalu If you're a liberal (or conservative, or independent) using this as an argument against libertarianism, you've failed. If you are a libertarian and this is your vision of libertarian paradise, then I have some bad news: that world will never happen.
@satanicmechanic11 I'm not arguing against libertarianism, I'm arguing against moronic libertarians demanding a free market and not understanding what the fuck an actual free market society is. If you did not pick that up from the comments you need to sit back and stfu.
@mitcha002 Ok great.....sooooo, why the FUCK would I want to live in a system that supports slavery? Why the hell would I want to live in a market system where at any moment I could be beaten unconscious, transported across the country, and thrown in a work camp?? EVEN if both me and you and a ton of other people dont support slavery, there will be people who do because they can profit heavily off of it.
I always thought this guy was a scumbag. now it's confirmed. libertarianism has nothing to do with religion. CATO wants to make sure the multinationals stay unregulated to pollute. what do you think the Tea Party was about??? rich people getting richer.
@slaughtz oh that Reason's trustees are the Koch brothers? or that the liberty you believe in doesn't apply to you, and only allows the Koch's to pollute and for you to breathe in their dirty air. we're against the gov't taking away our civil liberties, but that isn't what libertarianism is all about.
@jpollard117 Is it when your belief that everyone deserves maximum freedom is based off of irrational fear, hypocritical authority problems, and selfishness.
@Shyhalu Based off of irrational fear, hypocritical authority problems and selfishness. Can you show me evidence of Penn having irrational fear, hypocritical authority problems and selfishness? Just make some claims that you know to be true about him and what he's said and if you're kind enough, where I could verify them.
@slaughtz Hes against recycling plants....he made a "those are crappy jobs anyway" excuse as part of his reasoning. I really don't need to say anymore. Just go watch the BS video on recycling. This is a guy who suggest we fill a hole in the middle of the country with our trash. When it comes to most things pen is spot on, but when it comes to anything dealing with the government he turns irrational. I wonder if hes ever said anything good about the government or given credit where its due.
@Shyhalu Hmm... I just watched the episode again and he says nothing about plants. He did say that jobs were crappy but that wasn't the only thing he said. He showed us what a 1000 year landfill would look like, and he showed how landfills would look afterward. The only two problematic trash are glass bottles and plastic. Glass takes 1 million years, plastic ~500 years to decompose. Styrofoam takes 100. Seems to me that he's right about this. Any more evidence for irrationality?
@slaughtz Sigh, if you did not find logical problems with that video that suggests that because we can spend the next X years filling in a giant hole in the middle of the country (Exponential growth ignored) so its ok not to recycle anywhere theres no point in talking to you as you are too far gone. Get rid of the bias, and we'll talk.
@slaughtz Go do a cost analysis of transporting the entire nations trash to the middle of the country (as well as the cost to dig a giant hole that big) and then maybe you would understand.
@Shyhalu I really don't think that the desire to have maximum freedom needs any explanation. Have you ever read some of the writings of former slaves explaining why they should be free? It is insane - they never should have to explain such a thing. We see their "owners" for what they are - tyrants. Freedom is selfish??? Wow.
@jpollard117 Define maximum freedom please. Do you realize that when freed there were plenty of slaves that came back or didn't leave because they had nothing else for them and no where to go? Freedom is selfish when its at the cost of others. Not always a bad thing, but sometimes is.
@Shyhalu Maximum freedom is used to refer to the maximum amount of freedom an individual can have without interfering with another’s freedom. Freedom at the cost of others is really an analogy for theft, not a principle of maximum freedom but a principle of socialism. I am not free to take from you to give to me. And as you said some slaves returned - they were FREE to do so.
@jpollard117 Freedom to not pay taxes costs me my freedom to live in a well governed society. Your freedom to not recycle limits my freedom to live on a clean planet. Who decides what interferes with my freedom? I want the freedom to kill. your freedom to live interferes with that, and so does you taking away my freedom by putting me in jail. Both hinder my freedom. Your freedom to live in a capitalistic society interferes with my freedom from corporate rule. You cant win, its called reality.
@Shyhalu You speak in meaningless generalities. Maximum freedom is freedom from violence where violence can only be used in self defense. Only a thug thinks there is a proper use of violence against innocent people.
@Bleakfacts Then how is it freedom? First, Its not freedom if I'm not allowed to do it and get punished for it. Second, where do you draw the line? You can't. I can easily argue that smoking stomps on my freedom to be smoke free. I can argue that a drunk driver prevents my freedom to drive safely...or am I not free to drive safe on the highways? Its meaningless generalities because thats all you can present as a foundation for your argument, meaningless generality thats subjective.
@Bleakfacts Sure, if you force peace, you are not free to commit violence. You approve of the government taking away all guns? Freedom is just that, freedom. No restrictions. and no, I approve of limited freedom, I just don't try to disguise it as libertarians and free market tarts do.
@Shyhalu Peace is not forced on peaceful people, violence is. If a person hasn't threaten anyone with his or her gun you have no right to take it. You only believe in limited freedom applied to a limited amount of people. Libertarians believe without exception violence only may be used against person that has committed violence or deceit against a innocent person. You want innocent groups of people to be punished because you stereotyped them as being bad.
@Bleakfacts Peace is forced upon violent people....sorry man, it goes both ways. Not allowing me to take someones gun is restricting my freedom to take said gun. If your belief has an exception, its already flawed. I believe in reasonable freedom, I don't see good government regulation as being a punishment. YOU want bad people to be able to get away with things, like putting lead in paint or cutting corners and releasing a dangerous product.
@Shyhalu It's doesn't go both ways, if you didn't initiate the violence you are innocent. This is not exceptions as I pointed out a million times you may use violence to defend yourself from violence, and yes that means your freedom is restricted. I want people who actually committed the crime to be prosecuted and not force innocent people to pay for a inspection cause they might have committed a crime like everybody else on the planet. Can you tell me what reasonable freedom is?
@Bleakfacts Yes it does. You telling someone they can't be violent is restricting them, which means they are not free to do as they wish. Exceptions to the system mean its flawed. No, because thats to broad of a subject and requires context. I'd would say the inspection (What inspection are we even talking about?) should be free or paid for by taxes/businesses IF the people want inspections to be enforced....but that depends on what inspection are we talking about?
@selfrealizedexile I just want them to accept the reality that a system designed by humans to predict fickle human nature is flawed, especially when human nature is full of morality and stupidity, which the system leaves out.
@Shyhalu You said "I want the freedom to kill". I think that sums up your inability to understand the concept of freedom because it is fundamental that someone's freedom does not injure, kill, or damage the property of others. Individuals should also be compensated for damage to common property like the envirnoment. Of course nothing is perfect and unfair things happen under any system. I must assume that you do not like to work hard enough to succeed and thus feel "you can't win".
@jpollard117 How is it freedom is I am not allowed to do it regardless of others? How is it freedom if I have to be forced to pay for it? How it is freedom? Its not, and I do understand freedom....the problem is that you don't. Idiot......I said YOU can't win as in you can't win your argument because its subjective in many cases. But nevermind that, the fact is you don't understand the definition of freedom and skewed it to fit your argument because it doesn't hold any water in reality.
like penn as entertainer but he is dead wrong in his support for the libs dead wrong
proudleft 15 hours ago
And now I doubt myself Penn! Just when I think I've started to develop a grasp on things and how I should act, you completely blow my mind!
brownns83 3 days ago
penn is one of the few libertarians i like.
bigswano 5 days ago
capitalism is the cure
snakebitgoat 5 days ago
Civil libertarianism is great but economic libertarianism is just fucking stupid. Global capitalism has led to the destruction of the United State's economy.
LearningAsIGo80 5 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 "Global capitalism has led to the destruction of the United State's economy." Please explain. So many people post such bold statements on Youtube and never explain their reasoning.
whothaplaya 5 days ago
@whothaplaya The breaking up of private unions along with low tariffs helped create the outsourcing problem in the United States. There is no representation for labor rights in this country anymore. I mean why make something in the US when you can use slave labor under the guise of "free trade" in India or China?
LearningAsIGo80 5 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 I would suggest watching NXSchell's video on youtube entitled free trade.
LearningAsIGo80 5 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 OSHA represents labor rights, as far as workplace safety goes.
Where outsourcing is concerned, a lot of that also has to do with taxes and consumer choice.
DetCrockett7 5 days ago
@DetCrockett7 Nope it has to do with politicians selling this country out and low tariffs.
LearningAsIGo80 4 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 It ALSO has to do with consumer choice and taxes. Don't you understand basic economics? Dollar votes?
DetCrockett7 4 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 "The breaking up of private unions" Unions were part of the reason there is so much outsourcing, because unions create artificially high wages. The main reason for outsourcing is high regulation of business, taxes and so much red tape to get through to get a business started. In the 1930 the US had the cheapest goods and the highest wages in the world.
whothaplaya 4 days ago
@whothaplaya Actually private unions helped push for legislation that kept higher tariffs. I love how people think it is acceptable to use slave labor for "cheaper" products. Are you forgetting that private unions are what gave us the 8 hour work day and 40 hour work week.
LearningAsIGo80 4 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 You're sinking your own argument here. I'm not sure if you realize it.
Yes, unions were chiefly responsible for the 8-hour day and 40-hour work week. What you seem to be missing is that both "accomplishments" indirectly contributed to the outsourcing problem. Many workers overseas will work longer hours for less pay, which obviously lowers production costs. I think that was Whothaplaya's point.
DetCrockett7 4 days ago
@DetCrockett7 So why don't we just go back to slavery I mean that would really lower the production cost? I mean why pay people at all when you could just throw them a few bread crumbs? I think you are missing my point. If we had a government that was for the people they would raise tariffs high enough so that businesses wouldn't go over seas to use slave labor. We could still have a living wage with that.
LearningAsIGo80 3 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 It's impossible to miss someone's point if you directly acknowledge it.
Slavery isn't truly comparable here. A slave has no rights. A low-paid worker still does. A slave MUST work for free. A low-paid worker still has the option to look for better opportunity.
DetCrockett7 3 days ago
@DetCrockett7 When everyone becomes a low paid worker you don't have any rights it's called wage slavery. Do you think people in India have any rights when they are forced to work 14 hour days or be thrown out onto the streets? You anarcho capitalists just deny history.
LearningAsIGo80 3 days ago
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@DetCrockett7 When everyone becomes a low paid worker you don't have any rights it's called wage slavery. Do you think people in India have any rights when they are forced to work 14 hour days or be thrown out onto the streets? You anarcho capitalists just deny history.
LearningAsIGo80 3 days ago
@DetCrockett7 wage slaves at the lowest rungs of society earn less than slaves ie slave master had to buy slaves and pay for boarding food shelter try earning that on minimum wage job in america pro union and proud ake america if it was not for the government in directly subsidizing low wage earners with food stamps earned income and tax credits the low wage earner at his her pay often times would starve or suffer malnutrition
proudleft 15 hours ago
@proudleft It's "proudleft" policies that are largely responsible for creating the very problem you're citing. Why are they're so many "wage slaves" to begin with? Because "the man" keeps them down? To a degree, sure. But a lot of it is also because, for one thing, many of these "wage slaves" have too many children--thereby oversaturating the unskilled labor market. This creates a perpetual drag on the economy, and particularly, the taxpayers.
DetCrockett7 2 hours ago
@proudleft (cont'd)
Many of them have so many children out of wedlock, without a stable family structure, and they do this, sometimes, because they receive more welfare that way (depending upon their local jurisdiction). This practice makes these people even poorer than they otherwise would have been.
But even aside from that, the oversaturation of the labor market itself is a primary factor in driving down workers' wages. It's supply and demand, like any other aspect of economics.
DetCrockett7 2 hours ago
@LearningAsIGo80 yea raise tariffs
proudleft 15 hours ago
@whothaplaya yeah right the same old tired antiunion propaganda
proudleft 15 hours ago
I can't help but notice, but don't get me wrong, I love Penn jillette he's awesome, that there always seem to be rich people holding these views. More free market, less taxes etc. You'd rarely ever hear a person destitute talking like this would you? I wonder why.....
Faerlon123 6 days ago
@Faerlon123
Because a destitute person is usually in that position due to lack of self-reliance.
DetCrockett7 6 days ago
@DetCrockett7 Right so someone with cerebral palsy or multiple sclerosis is destitute because a lack of self reliance not due to the fact that it is impossible for them to work. You economic libertarians need to grow a brain.
LearningAsIGo80 5 days ago
@LearningAsIGo80 No, you need to grow a brain, and learn how to read. (You people on YouTube always seem to take people's comments out of context.)
The key word in my comment is "usually." Obviously, someone with a disability is a special case. Read someone's comment properly before you criticize it.
DetCrockett7 5 days ago
@DetCrockett7 The person is in that position due to lack of opportunity. And opportunity is a prerequisite for freedom. So poor people are actually, not free.
Faerlon123 5 days ago
@Faerlon123
Not usually. I've been poor myself--and in a lot of debt at the same time--so I speak from experience. A relative lack of opportunity sometimes is the case, but the individual's own efforts--or lack thereof--is the usual impediment to their own progress.
DetCrockett7 5 days ago
@DetCrockett7 Yes, but 1.8 billion people in the world arent poor because they choose to be poor. They are in a state of destitution and do not have freedom. You have been poor in a country where opportunity is, so you cant say that people in Zimbabwe are free, in the same way as the West is.
Faerlon123 5 days ago
@Faerlon123 Well, yes I can, actually, at least in a way. The problem with Zimbabwe, and many other Third World nations, is that they have populations that reproduce too frequently in relation to their economic health. So a lot of the problem--their destitution--is created by their reluctance to improve their own lot.
(continued)
DetCrockett7 5 days ago
@Faerlon123 (from before)
Secondly, Zimbabwe doesn't enjoy the same degree of political freedom that we do in the West, as you said. So the problem here is their lack of libertarianism, which doesn't support what you're saying.
DetCrockett7 5 days ago
I'm a devout Christian and a creationist but I'd vote for Penn as President in a heartbeat.
IMABACHELORTILLIDIE 1 week ago
Penn's last lines say it all: to be a libertarian is to regard people with trust and love. Otherwise the logical choice for those who hate and fear is authoritarianism, whether Liberal or Conservative.
leafwatch 1 week ago
So Penn is in favor of the 'Socratic method' instead of trying to argue with someone to win them over.
WISKEYSIERRA4ECHO 1 week ago
Love this video and Penn.....and I'm not a Libertarian. Wish more people discussed things instead of trying to win by making the other person look stupid. Overgeneralizations...sigh.
Tikiman03 1 week ago
I am a Libertarian because I prefer freedom to enslavement. It baffles me that this requires an explanation. Yet, even when explained, it meets violent opposition. For that reason, I'm beginning to lean toward an absolute dictatorship with myself in charge. I will force people to be free at the point of a gun. What an exquisite irony.
PistolPackingPatriot 1 week ago
I'd really like to see Mr. Jillette make a commentary video on the Liberty-Dollar injustice.
deepspacedoggydog 1 week ago
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ntycplyst 1 week ago
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Barskor1 1 week ago
Penn Jillette. Why I am a Libertarian: Because I am smart and successful. Fuck you if you were born stupid. Fuck you if you are not aggressive. Fuck you if can't smell a profit and wring the neck of everyone who gets in the way.
ptolemyauletesXII 1 week ago
@ptolemyauletesXII I don’t think that’s what libertarianism is about that at all. Its about freedom poor or rich dum or smart we all would benefit from a freer society. You are the same as every one else except for a few variations in your life your not any better or worse.
chernetgirma 1 week ago
@ptolemyauletesXII you're an idiot.
spec24 1 week ago
@spec24 Thank you for the brilliant, insightful, cutting, witty, erudite, eloquent, yet concise, rebuttal of my point. At least you spelled 'you're' correctly.
ptolemyauletesXII 1 week ago
Penn for Prez!!!
TreeSmoke1999 2 weeks ago
OCCUPY MY BALL SACK!
jpollard117 2 weeks ago
Penn should run for governor or congressman of Nevada. We need more people like him in our government. There is a Cato Institute, plenty of libertarian thinkers, libertarian speakers, but they don't DO very much. We have too many conservatives & liberals running the country. Let's get some libertarians in there. PLEASE, Penn, run for office.
qwexas 2 weeks ago 23
@qwexas lol, his opinions may be spot on, but hes not politician.
toSTONEiGO 1 week ago
@qwexas We shouldn't label the argument as "libertarian vs republican vs democrat". You could just as easily be a left libertarian or right libertarian. What we should distinguish is "statist vs libertarian". That is the real division.
authorityblues 1 week ago
libertarians like noam chomsky should run for office
istraight1 2 days ago
@istraight1 i though chomsky was a lefty not a lib
proudleft 15 hours ago
@istraight1 and any way what makes chomsky such a great man for office hog wash
proudleft 15 hours ago
@qwexas
FUCK THAT SHIT!HE NEEDS TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT!
IRAPECUNTS4FUN 7 hours ago
I love this human being <3
ApostaticalOli 2 weeks ago 18
Fat, loudmouthed neckeard with a ponytail and innumerable chins - a libertarian? Impossible!
trilobright 2 weeks ago
@trilobright Clearly, he knows better than scientists about his own health =P
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@trilobright
Person with a critique of Libertarianism resorts to ad hominen attacks, because they lack the intellectual ability to make a cogent point, because their argument is mostly emotional and lacking in rationality? Impossible!
AJatethewaffles 1 week ago 3
He says he approaches it without condescension but isn't that the whole premise of his show?
BenjaminWirtz 2 weeks ago
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mitcha002 2 weeks ago
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HelmetBlissta 2 weeks ago
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HelmetBlissta 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu government and collectivism is what made slavery in this country possible. Government made extermination of the Jews in Europe possible. More often than not the atrocities committee in human history have been the direct result of big government and collectivism.
jpete3027666 2 weeks ago
@jpete3027666 Its also what made slavery near impossible today. In a free market, I could buy my own personal army and exterminate the jews regardless. and it would be OK because supplied troops are meeting my demand to murder. You are a dumbass focusing on the bad things the government can do while forgetting the good things it prevents.....all the while forgetting that ANYTHING GOES in a free market society and acting as if thats better.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
Libertarians are definitely more open minded than other folks. Ask people with mainstream political beliefs and their response is always more government control and more spending are necessary to improve quality of life. They never consider the possibility of more freedom and less government solving problems. Libertarians to me celebrate the individual on many levels and this is what we have lost in this country.
jpete3027666 2 weeks ago
The LP used to be a party of principle when Harry Browne was representing them but now they have compromised their positions and have the likes of Bob Barr representing them.
TrikkyMakk 2 weeks ago
First thing we could do is legalize marijuana. We'd have less crime from dealers, incarcerate much less people, save more money, and have more freedom. The gov has no authority to arrest you for non-violent acts towards yourself. It's like arresting you for eating too much junk food.
joeynyc321 2 weeks ago
That's true, Penn. There's very few if any people that I've convinced or persuaded by being a dick and telling them they're wrong and why they're wrong. Although I, myself, am open to debate and include any new information into my views, most people simply don't do this. Any debate they consider a personal attack. I assume Penn's approach is more like 'Oh, well, I see it THIS way' instead of 'Fuck you, you're wrong.'
Wisecracka 3 weeks ago
I'm libertarian but I don't like Penn and the CATO institute crowd. They are the flip side of the "theocons." Theocons insist on religion as being a centerpiece of their politics. Penn insists on Atheism as a centerpiece for being a libertarian.
thedeadpelican 3 weeks ago
MITCHA002 GIVE IT UP. The guy is a statist - you are debating a brick wall. Some of us get what you are saying just leave it at that. Best of luck to you.
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@jpollard117 You are a statist too you fucking idiot, you just think the government should do as little as possible....like preserve individual freedom or uphold contractual agreements.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu You are so smart. You seem to know everything about everyone. I do not know why those duties could not be performed by private entities. We already have private police and courts. Why does everything have to be government - does government really have to pick up my trash? Do I really need government to get married or divorced? Statist is a perjorative used to imply natzi ideals that you openly spew. You have even wished death on me for disagreeing with you - pure stalin
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@jpollard117 I don't wish death on you for disagreeing with me, I wish death on you because you OPENLY ADMIT you are corrupt scum thats happily ruining the world we work hard to put together...and then you have the nerve to tell me you know whats the best market system to use. You are old, useless trash that sucks dick. If society ended, you'd be entirely useless. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I'm a loser.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu You are a ranting loon. I never said I did anything corupt. I am a straight up law abiding tax paying citizen. You just want to make up shit to justify your crazy ass comments and profanity. You are a self important idiot. Why don't you just tell everyone your ideal presidential pick so your true vision is more clear. Occupy my ball sac.
jpollard117 2 weeks ago
@jpollard117 I'm just going to follow his line of questioning through to the conclusion now, since he seems so convinced he has something unique or interesting to say I'm intrigued to see what he thinks he has.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 I dont have something unique or interesting to say, just like you (or the troll moron that doesnt know hes a statist) don't either. Its been said and brought up before with other tarts like you by other people. And you already know what I'm going to say. Anyway, by all means please tell me why I would want to live in a society where slavery is ok and allowed and I could be enslaved at any given time (see first comment)?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I wouldn't want to live in that society. You falsely assume that this could and would exist just because of a free market environment. As I tried to explain to you before you proceeded down path of flawed reasoning, it only happens if people want it to happen, at that point it doesn't matter whether you have a free market or complete government control. What I was saying is that a free market is the best way for society to order itself, taking into account social conditions.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 - You falsely assume it won't, which is dumb as hell considering how profitable it is..look at what we buy today, cheap shit from the chinese we hate and stuff from factory farms that have dozens of chickens smushed into one cage. You falsely assume the general public is intelligent, educated, or even gives a shit. Sure, and slavery is one hell of a way for a society to order itself.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 I'm not going down the path of flawed reasoning, I'm living in reality and actually understand human nature...whereas here you are attempting to preach the "best" system, which you cant admit has severe flaws, that you admit could have slavery and it should be allowed. You are so desperate to fill those anti authority impulses that you'd be willing to become enslaved. You need to step back and realize that you just said slavery is ok and you wouldn't want to live in that society.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu OK, it seems you don't understand what you're talking about so I'm going to take a step back and explain some things.
1. No system is perfect.
2. Some systems are better than others.
3. The free market is the best of the systems that we have and know.
Slavery is possible BECAUSE OF HUMAN NATURE, not the system, if slavery is going to happen NO SYSTEM CAN PREVENT IT, NOT THE FREE MARKET, NOT THE GOVERNMENT, ANYTHING. The free market is better than others at preventing it.
mitcha002 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 1. Congrats on the realization. 2. No...just no, each system has its ups and downs. The only system that could be better than others is one that tries to take the best of all of them while minimizing the downsides, which is what we have today. 3. No......we do not live in a free market, we live in a hybrid market, which is what your dumbass does not seem to understand.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 2nd comment - The free market supports slavery you moron, we just went over this. The government can not prevent slavery 100% but the free market actively supports it since its very profitable. I just gave you two examples of people not giving a shit about morally fucked up things. Most people dont bother to research if they are buying factory farm produce or chinese sweatshop labor goods. Just like they wont give a shit about buying goods from a company using slave labor.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 third comment, the only difference between a government and a free market is that the government is an organized force that can act to prevent things like slavery. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that free market principles make us keep the government as opposed to anarchy. You think if "consumers" did not demand a government that we would still have it? Face it, even supply and demand are against you. Enough of us demand a government for there to be one to enforce our moral codes.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Lastly, what makes you think that in the free market an organization can not grow so big as to act like the government we have now? You just said slavery should be allowed in a free market if the people want it...so what makes you think a big entity forcing its moral code and laws on people is not a part of the free market? Replace government with something like a militarized Goldman Sachs and you get the same thing.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said it should happen, only that it could or would happen if people want it to. There is no should.
mitcha002 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 I specifically asked your dumbass IF it should happen, you said Yes.
I don't need to read anything to understand why you believe it won't happen, I'm content in believing you are a moron ignorant of reality. Tell me why people still purchase goods from factory farms mistreating animals or people working in sweatshops and I'll do some reading, until then you are an idiot devoid of any understanding of human nature.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu To understand why we believe it won't happen, or at least is much less likely to happen, you'll need to do a lot of reading. mises.org is a good place to start.
mitcha002 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 anyway, we are back to square one. do YOU, personally, believe slavery should be allowed, YOUR OPINION HERE, in a free market society if a business can sustain itself by purchasing and selling slaves and etc? Yes or No.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu slavery is a violation of someone else's freedom so no!......an absurd example of free markets. Freedom of the individual is paramount in libertarianism.
shammy1002 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I'm going to try to explain this really slowly and simply for you because I've explained this very clearly for you and you don't seem to get it.
1. Things happen. That includes slavery, animal abuse, sweatshop labour. NO SYSTEM IS TO BLAME FOR HUMAN NATURE.
2. Some systems facilitate these things more than others. Let us not forget that all of these things have happened under GOVERNMENT, not MARKET conditions.
3. The free market is the best way to prevent these things.
mitcha002 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 And I'm going to explain this really slowly to YOU. I AM A S K I N G FOR YOUR...YOU, MITCHA002, FOR YOUR FUCKING OPINION. I already understand what the fuck you are saying, your stupid ass doesnt get it that I dont give a shit about what you are saying because IRRELEVANT and its not an answer to what I am asking YOU. I don't give a shit about the free market right now, because theres no point if you cant answer a simple fucking question that requires YOUR OPINION.
Now answer it.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I've already given you my opinion. I'm not surprised you don't recall this because it's clear you've been ignoring most of what I've said. I'm against slavery. You don't understand what the free market is, you don't understand what you're arguing, so you don't see why this is a rational position.
I don't care what you have to say now, the only reason I responded to you was because I thought you might have something interesting to say, but you don't, so I will stop now.
mitcha002 2 weeks ago
@mitcha002 I'm aware you did, then you said you didn't. so which is it?? Don't care, jsut give it again then. I am not addressing the things you are saying because you keep trying to answer questions I am not asking you about, Good. You shut right the fuck up because I demonstrated the government is a product of supply and demand just like any free market company thats capable of enforcing rules with violence, jail, etc. How can I have anything interesting to say when you can't read for shit?
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
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@mitcha002 ---Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said it should happen, only that it could or would happen if people want it to. -- Quote from you...that was the SPECIFIC queston I asked you for, you said yes, then you said this. I'd say make up your mind, but its apparent you dont have the capability to think for yourself or form an opinion, like most libertarians, especially when their OWN OPINION goes against the system they are supporting.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu As soon as humans are ready to give something up the free market will be the first to adapt to this change. In the US slavery was opposed by the majority for many years before GOVERNMENT eventually outlawed it. How long would this situation continue in a free market where companies have to respond to REAL supply and demand?
If you still don't get what I am saying then you are very stupid and I am wasting my time here
mitcha002 2 weeks ago
You are such a child. I don't claim to run you. And yes people run me. I'm just playin the game laid out in front of me. I didn't make the rules - people like you make the rules by voting for the current system. You think you know everything because you watch Jon stewart. Just read your own post - you are a ranting nutt job. Your post are standard statist blather. I don't wish death upon you - you are a total psycho. We know it is a hybrid system - You can't fix statism that is the point!
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@jpollard117 When did I say I know everything? I'm a ranting nutjob......when you can't even remember what the hell you posted. Oh? You can't fix statism? Sounds like a mr. know it all claim. You support a hybrid system, yet you ask for a system thats non hybrid. Like I stated before, you retards don't understand what you support.
Are you done trolling yet?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Talk about reading comprehension! Obvious I am for a free market system. Obvious I understand are current system is a hybrid model with massive statism supported by people like you. Obvious I do very well in that system. Occupy wall street dude – thousands of waves of young people have tried to remake statism, always led by a pied piper chanting yes we can, years later only to find out why we couldn’t. Later you may go for the republician form of statism, same thing.
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
Goddammit bring back Penn &Teller Bullshit :(
DoctorCapitalist 3 weeks ago
Sometimes I think me and penn share the same brain. I believe and agree with EVERYTHING he says!!
Larrystoetickler 3 weeks ago
RCH -- lol.
jtropeano 3 weeks ago
"It's always possible someone else is right"
Where do you draw your line? Isn't there a point where you have read enough about government and politics to realise the whole thing is patently ridiculous and start to block certain things off? What about when you notice that 99% of arguments that non-libertarians make stem from the same few fallacious positions, should I keep listening? Perhaps you'll say yes, perhaps I will notice something different, but I don't think that position is economical.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 There is no line to draw. When you stop saying "I could be wrong" and stop listening to others, you turn into a biased deluded tart that hates the government no matter what it does and thinks your market system is perfect and has a answer for everything. This is generally when you are unable to list 10 things the government has done to promote society and think we live in a free market, instead of a hybrid one that regulates it so your coffee isn't poison and etc.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu And this is what meant in my reply when I said that most non-libertarian arguments stem from fallacious positions. You don't understand what the market is, you don't understand why everything the government does is abhorrent regardless, you make the common fallacy of thinking being against government regulation means being against regulation.
You don't know what you're arguing against, this is why I don't care what you think.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Logic is not a fallacious position. I'm simply applying your logic to other situations to demonstrate its failure. No, you don't understand what the market is. We have a hybrid system. If you think everything the government does is abhorrent, then you make my case when I say you don't understand the government or the market. No, I dont. The problem is that YOU dont understand being FOR regulation IS BEING AGAINST A FREE MARKET. Its not a free market if there are regulations.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I don't even really know where to begin with this. Everything you said in this reply is wrong. You don't have even the most basic grasp on libertarianism.
Like I said in my last reply, you don't know what you're arguing against.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Ok, lets start with this. Do you support a free market system?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu What's there to start? You've already made it clear that you don't understand what markets are. You've already got a course of questioning in mind, and I already have a pretty good idea of what you're going to say and why nothing I will be able to say will alter your flawed perception.
But if you must insist on doing this, I will answer your question and say 'yes'.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
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jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Do you support regulation?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I don't "support" regulation, I acknowledge that the market is self-regulating, be it through active competition, voluntary regulatory agencies or any other means.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Ok great, so its self regulating. So if a corporation wants to sell human beings as slaves, and theres a demand, is it ok?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Corporations are government created or sanctioned entities. Corporations do not exist in a free market.
It is not a question of 'is it OK', the questions are; can it happen, will it happen, why is it happening? Slavery happens because people are OK with it, or OK with the entity that sanctions it. In the instance of slavery in America there was limited public approval for years before it was outlawed. The government is what allowed it to continue to exist.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Stop playing dumb. If people want slavery, does the free market allow to happen? Yes or No.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I'm not playing dumb, I answered your question, the answer is yes, however your flawed understanding of markets means that you will misinterpret the reasons for this being the case. The market is not some external entity, the market is simply everyone and everything and every action by everyone and everything. Slavery only happens if people want it to exist, the market can't be blamed for that and government doesn't stop this happening, and in fact enables it as I explained.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 No, you are trying to duck out of this by over explaining junk as opposed to giving a straightforward answer. So you say yes, the free market would allow for slavery if the people wanted it. Now, do YOU think (asking YOUR personal opinion here) that slavery is ok and should be allowed IF we had a free market system that had several businesses sustained by a demand for slavery. Yes or No.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I'm not ducking out of anything, I answered your question all along and then explained why your question is anti-intellectual and moronic.
I would be staunchly opposed to slavery.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 They belong together, because supply meets demand can be applied to anything. What doesn't belong together is enforced morality and the free market. How can you staunchly oppose slavery while staunchly supporting a market system that says its ok?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu But yet again you miss the point, you think it is a case of yes or no when it is anything but. You tie the two together when they do not belong. You do not know what the market is.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu This is why I said in earlier replies that I have no interest in debating you, your methodology is incorrect, the questions you are asking are irrelevant, and when I explain why this is the case you don't care, you just keep ploughing away at the same questions and you can't or won't change your opinions even when the basis for them has been shattered.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 We aren't debating, I don't give two shits if slavery can happen with a government or not. I know you can't give me an answer that doesn't compromise your position on the free market or makes you look like an immoral asshole. You know this too, and thus instead of giving me a simple concrete answer, you spout out paragraphs of excuses, misdirections, and things I'm not asking about. So, please answer the Q from the prior comment. Yes or No.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu If you were being intellectually honest you would acknowledge what I am saying, but you don't, I have answered your question but you keep ignoring it because you don't like the truth
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 I'm not interested in your excuses and rationalization of slavery. And yes it does matter what you think, I'm not trying to bend reality, and what lies? You said yourself the free market would allow for slavery, so wtf is the lie there? I'm simply asking your dumbass yes/no questions about what you believe. And so far I have you believe the free market allows for slavery if thats what the people want, but you wouldnt take part of it (Again, I dont give a shit about the government)
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu It doesn't matter what I think, I am explaining how things work, you are trying to bend reality because it doesn't suit your pretty lies.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 SO, with that being said and established....SHOULD slavery be allowed in a free market society that regulates itself if there are people willing to enslave others and enough people (Enough to sustain the "industry") willing to purchase said slaves? Yes or No?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu There is no free-market in a society where people are considered property. There is no free market if the individuals in society are not free.
satanicmechanic11 3 weeks ago
@satanicmechanic11 Yes there is, a free market demands we let consumers decide whats right and what businesses should be allowed. You telling me otherwise is simply you enforcing your moral values onto the free market system, which is not a free market.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
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satanicmechanic11 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Shyhalu If you're a liberal (or conservative, or independent) using this as an argument against libertarianism, you've failed. If you are a libertarian and this is your vision of libertarian paradise, then I have some bad news: that world will never happen.
satanicmechanic11 3 weeks ago
@satanicmechanic11 I'm not arguing against libertarianism, I'm arguing against moronic libertarians demanding a free market and not understanding what the fuck an actual free market society is. If you did not pick that up from the comments you need to sit back and stfu.
Shyhalu 2 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Yes.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
@mitcha002 Ok great.....sooooo, why the FUCK would I want to live in a system that supports slavery? Why the hell would I want to live in a market system where at any moment I could be beaten unconscious, transported across the country, and thrown in a work camp?? EVEN if both me and you and a ton of other people dont support slavery, there will be people who do because they can profit heavily off of it.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu If people genuinely don't want slavery then a free market environment is optimal for achieving this.
mitcha002 3 weeks ago
Think he's more of a Satarian, heheheh
deanphilpot 3 weeks ago
"I'm probably leaning closer to Anarcho-capitalist."
You're on the right track!
2:46
jaimekid2 3 weeks ago
PENN SAID IT SO IT MUST BE RIGHT!
maozebong100 3 weeks ago
Reason's trustees are the Koch brothers./ wake up Paultards
LouieDaProtectionist 3 weeks ago
I always thought this guy was a scumbag. now it's confirmed. libertarianism has nothing to do with religion. CATO wants to make sure the multinationals stay unregulated to pollute. what do you think the Tea Party was about??? rich people getting richer.
LouieDaProtectionist 3 weeks ago
@LouieDaProtectionist My first reaction to your comment was confusion, then laughter, then some anger.
slaughtz 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@slaughtz oh that Reason's trustees are the Koch brothers? or that the liberty you believe in doesn't apply to you, and only allows the Koch's to pollute and for you to breathe in their dirty air. we're against the gov't taking away our civil liberties, but that isn't what libertarianism is all about.
LouieDaProtectionist 3 weeks ago
Love Penn but trying to convince others that everyone deserves maximum freedom is not bad.
jpollard117 1 month ago
@jpollard117 Is it when your belief that everyone deserves maximum freedom is based off of irrational fear, hypocritical authority problems, and selfishness.
Shyhalu 4 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Based off of irrational fear, hypocritical authority problems and selfishness. Can you show me evidence of Penn having irrational fear, hypocritical authority problems and selfishness? Just make some claims that you know to be true about him and what he's said and if you're kind enough, where I could verify them.
slaughtz 3 weeks ago
@slaughtz Hes against recycling plants....he made a "those are crappy jobs anyway" excuse as part of his reasoning. I really don't need to say anymore. Just go watch the BS video on recycling. This is a guy who suggest we fill a hole in the middle of the country with our trash. When it comes to most things pen is spot on, but when it comes to anything dealing with the government he turns irrational. I wonder if hes ever said anything good about the government or given credit where its due.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Hmm... I just watched the episode again and he says nothing about plants. He did say that jobs were crappy but that wasn't the only thing he said. He showed us what a 1000 year landfill would look like, and he showed how landfills would look afterward. The only two problematic trash are glass bottles and plastic. Glass takes 1 million years, plastic ~500 years to decompose. Styrofoam takes 100. Seems to me that he's right about this. Any more evidence for irrationality?
slaughtz 3 weeks ago
@slaughtz Sigh, if you did not find logical problems with that video that suggests that because we can spend the next X years filling in a giant hole in the middle of the country (Exponential growth ignored) so its ok not to recycle anywhere theres no point in talking to you as you are too far gone. Get rid of the bias, and we'll talk.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Okay, well thanks for trying anyway.
slaughtz 3 weeks ago
@slaughtz Go do a cost analysis of transporting the entire nations trash to the middle of the country (as well as the cost to dig a giant hole that big) and then maybe you would understand.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu I really don't think that the desire to have maximum freedom needs any explanation. Have you ever read some of the writings of former slaves explaining why they should be free? It is insane - they never should have to explain such a thing. We see their "owners" for what they are - tyrants. Freedom is selfish??? Wow.
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@jpollard117 Define maximum freedom please. Do you realize that when freed there were plenty of slaves that came back or didn't leave because they had nothing else for them and no where to go? Freedom is selfish when its at the cost of others. Not always a bad thing, but sometimes is.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Maximum freedom is used to refer to the maximum amount of freedom an individual can have without interfering with another’s freedom. Freedom at the cost of others is really an analogy for theft, not a principle of maximum freedom but a principle of socialism. I am not free to take from you to give to me. And as you said some slaves returned - they were FREE to do so.
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@jpollard117 Freedom to not pay taxes costs me my freedom to live in a well governed society. Your freedom to not recycle limits my freedom to live on a clean planet. Who decides what interferes with my freedom? I want the freedom to kill. your freedom to live interferes with that, and so does you taking away my freedom by putting me in jail. Both hinder my freedom. Your freedom to live in a capitalistic society interferes with my freedom from corporate rule. You cant win, its called reality.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu You speak in meaningless generalities. Maximum freedom is freedom from violence where violence can only be used in self defense. Only a thug thinks there is a proper use of violence against innocent people.
Bleakfacts 3 weeks ago
@Bleakfacts Then how is it freedom? First, Its not freedom if I'm not allowed to do it and get punished for it. Second, where do you draw the line? You can't. I can easily argue that smoking stomps on my freedom to be smoke free. I can argue that a drunk driver prevents my freedom to drive safely...or am I not free to drive safe on the highways? Its meaningless generalities because thats all you can present as a foundation for your argument, meaningless generality thats subjective.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu It's freedom from violence to be able live in peace. Do you mean to say you want to be free to do whatever violence you want?
Bleakfacts 3 weeks ago
@Bleakfacts Sure, if you force peace, you are not free to commit violence. You approve of the government taking away all guns? Freedom is just that, freedom. No restrictions. and no, I approve of limited freedom, I just don't try to disguise it as libertarians and free market tarts do.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu Peace is not forced on peaceful people, violence is. If a person hasn't threaten anyone with his or her gun you have no right to take it. You only believe in limited freedom applied to a limited amount of people. Libertarians believe without exception violence only may be used against person that has committed violence or deceit against a innocent person. You want innocent groups of people to be punished because you stereotyped them as being bad.
Bleakfacts 3 weeks ago
@Bleakfacts Peace is forced upon violent people....sorry man, it goes both ways. Not allowing me to take someones gun is restricting my freedom to take said gun. If your belief has an exception, its already flawed. I believe in reasonable freedom, I don't see good government regulation as being a punishment. YOU want bad people to be able to get away with things, like putting lead in paint or cutting corners and releasing a dangerous product.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu It's doesn't go both ways, if you didn't initiate the violence you are innocent. This is not exceptions as I pointed out a million times you may use violence to defend yourself from violence, and yes that means your freedom is restricted. I want people who actually committed the crime to be prosecuted and not force innocent people to pay for a inspection cause they might have committed a crime like everybody else on the planet. Can you tell me what reasonable freedom is?
Bleakfacts 3 weeks ago
@Bleakfacts Yes it does. You telling someone they can't be violent is restricting them, which means they are not free to do as they wish. Exceptions to the system mean its flawed. No, because thats to broad of a subject and requires context. I'd would say the inspection (What inspection are we even talking about?) should be free or paid for by taxes/businesses IF the people want inspections to be enforced....but that depends on what inspection are we talking about?
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu
What you're wanting them to say is they believe in negative freedom as it is the only kind that is non-contradictory for a group of people.
selfrealizedexile 3 weeks ago
@selfrealizedexile I just want them to accept the reality that a system designed by humans to predict fickle human nature is flawed, especially when human nature is full of morality and stupidity, which the system leaves out.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago
@Shyhalu You said "I want the freedom to kill". I think that sums up your inability to understand the concept of freedom because it is fundamental that someone's freedom does not injure, kill, or damage the property of others. Individuals should also be compensated for damage to common property like the envirnoment. Of course nothing is perfect and unfair things happen under any system. I must assume that you do not like to work hard enough to succeed and thus feel "you can't win".
jpollard117 3 weeks ago
@jpollard117 How is it freedom is I am not allowed to do it regardless of others? How is it freedom if I have to be forced to pay for it? How it is freedom? Its not, and I do understand freedom....the problem is that you don't. Idiot......I said YOU can't win as in you can't win your argument because its subjective in many cases. But nevermind that, the fact is you don't understand the definition of freedom and skewed it to fit your argument because it doesn't hold any water in reality.
Shyhalu 3 weeks ago