Anyone searching for real scholarly information regarding this needs to look up Pastor & Theologian Gunnar Samuelson. He provides a lot of historical and accurate information regarding why the weapon of execution or crux is unknown. It can be a number of stauros to choose from. The bible no where says that we need a cross or symbol to remember Jesus by or to represent Christianity, its rather pointless to debate this. It's the reason the Christ died that counts and is why we live.
Actually in Roman times the term 'crucifigo' meant to impale and their most popular form of impalement was one where the condemned was also NAILED to a five-pointed frame or cross. (There were other kinds of crosses called tropaea and furcae.) Two transverse points, one buried point, the fourth the top of the titulus signpost on top and the fifth in the centre upon which the crucified rested or "rode" to his utter disgrace. Google "puzzuoli graffito alcimilla" and you will find that this is so.
Jesus did not die on a cross. The bible as usual is in heavy contradiction of itself. One part 'declares' he died on a cross and another says he didnt. Which is it? And while you're all here arguing the toss about some fictitious bullshit, more of your rights are being taken from you. Who the fuck is gonna challenge that? Oh yeah you're all waiting for 'Jesus' or whatever the guys name actually was. By the way, do any of you know? oH I GUESS NOT. I am tired of bullshit religion.
I read acts 10. So nice of you to not put in the verse or state what you think it claim. Of course if you did that then everyone would know right away that you didn't know what you're talking about.
Since apparently you have trouble thinking I'll spell it out to you as if you were 5.
Acts 10:39 states that Jesus was killed by hanging on a tree. Now if you were going to kill someone by torturing them on a cross/stake what material would you use that you could hammer nails into? Wood maybe? how would you get this long beam of would? does a tree trunk work?
If you attach a flag by a couple end points to a flag pole is it hanging from the pole? If you attach a man by a couple point to a cross/stake isn't he also hanging from it?
We have a man (Jesus), who is hanging (by the nails in his hands and feet), from a tree (cut down and then raised upright on a hill)
Does it make more sense that Paul disagrees with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John or maybe he's finding a different way to say the same thing?
Instead of going with the first picture that pops into you're head when you read that have you tried thinking for 5 seconds about what he might really mean by the words he uses?
making ANY sort of graven image was forbidden in the OT. It always lead to idolatry. It doesnt matter if Jesus was executed on a stake or cross. 1st century christians would never wore crosses regardless...flee from idolatry. Plus, it is a pagan symbol. If Jesus was executed on a star, would it be ok to use a pentagram around your neck or display one on the steeple? Pagan imagery has no place in true christianity. we walk by faith, not by sight.
Christians do not use the cross as an idol. It is only a reminder of what he did for us. The blood he shed so we could be free. Its not an idol, its only a reminder.
jesus did die on a cross notice in john 20:25..if jesus was crucified on a stake then both hands would have been placed above his head and only one nail would have been needed to go through...(John 20:25, in his hands the print of the nails)
The first Stauros is the STIPES which was permantly set into the ground,the second Stauros, was called the PATIBULUM the CROSSBEAM if you want to see what a historically accurate crucifixion looked like, watch the crucifixion scene in "THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST" except they raised the whole cross up. after they nailed his wrists they lifted his body up and fixed the crossbeam to the upright, and nailed his feet or ankles to the stipes.
I have repeated this many times and I don't have time for a debate. There is NO greek word for "cross" in Koine Greek so whatever pole the Romans used (with or without a cross bar) was called a "stauros". Jesus was put on a pagan cross by pagan Romans, the historical facts are there and Justin Martyr and other writers wrote it down.
Jesus died on a cross.
You will only show proofs that the cross is pagan. Of course it's pagan and so is the "torture stake"
When Jesus spoke of being lifted up like the serpent, he wasn't speaking of the shape of the object of his death, but that because he would be lifted up people would believe in him and have eternal life (read the context, look at the next verse). He was speaking of salvation in the entire chap 3; being born again, God so loved the world (16), he wants the world to be saved (17), read verses 1 to 21.
the single sripture here is talking about the manner jesus was supposed to die not about salavtion(two different subjects). just like the serpent was lifted on the snake(straight single beam) it doesnt say two beams(cross) a stake is a single beam. think about it If jesus died on the cross then the scripture about the above is invalidated. and you and i know thats impossible
The entire context speaks of salvation. The details of the death of Jesus are not the point. A comparison is given on deliverance "The Israelites were freed by puting a snake on a pole" "Jesus would be lifted up" This cannot make a case for the stake or cross. It's a prophecy on deliverance brought by messiah to the people by being "lifted up" doesn't say on what (of course the snake was on a pole, but it doesn't say Jesus was on what). Doesn't have to be the same object, it's not the context.
@MrKattt im sorry but you must be a Complete ID Eye OTits IN WORLD ENCYCLEPEDIAS THAT CONSTANTINE INFACT "CHOSE" THE CROSS! AND CHOSE DECEMBER 21st. Who you gonna trust a Ruthless roman emperor? who forced the people to celebrate christmas and easter? and along with the bishops? and back then they used POLES WAY MORE THAN CROSSES which would explain all the PAGANS hanging out side by the roads by the city
@deakon452876 Actually Constantine got rid of the five pointed execution frame or cross (crux) which criminals were both nailed to and impaled on and replaced it with a tropaeum, which was the votive/victory cross of both the pagan and Imperial religions.
He also invented the combined Roman Catholic / Greek Orthodox Church in 325 CE and criminalised all other forms of Christianity. ALL Christianity today comes from his creation, including the Bible!
ya know it's impossible for a human (jesus was human when he came down, everyone knows that) to die on a stake, cross, whatever you want to call it, with their hands spread out the way it described jesus' death. it wasn't cross it was a straight peice of wood (u know what i mean), they never used crosses to execute people in the time and place of jesus' death, and why is this regarding just Jws? how much suffering they go through and still get back up, their stronger than u or I and that's true!
@austrailianpirate I hope your not really Australian...your comments makes me embarrased to be one! Do your fricken research coz u just sound so damn dumb
Bottom line is this: Christ PROBABLY was killed on a two-piece cross-shaped Stavros. BUT since "Stavros" originally technically meant "Stake", it's always smarter and safer to call it by its more accurate term. Regardless of the shape, it's still at its core a "Torture Stake" of suffering. The Stake of Reproach & Shame became the Tree of Life, for our Redemption. The Torture Stake of God's Son. JWs celebrate this fact & preach it. Christ's ATONEMENT. And in that we should all glory and hope in.
EVEN if it had a cross-piece, I don't think it should be CALLED "cross". Cuz that's putting too much emphasis on the shape, and not enough on the substance. The WT emphasizes the SUBSTANCE (wood). Yeah, being a wee bit too uptight about it. But the Roman Catholic Church has made a PAGAN IDOL AND A NEUROTIC FETISH of the actual SHAPE OF THE CROSS, kissing it, wearing it, making the shape with their hands, and calling it that all the time too. No balance it seems.
But again, where the WT may go too far (though they have the English term "stake" VERY correct) by being dogmatic, the pagan Churches go too far with cross cross cross all the time. But I have lexicons & Bible dictionaries too PUT OUT BY PROTESTANT WRITERS AND THEOLOGIANS that say that "stavros" meant stake, using the word "stake". But simply that it had a cross-beam attached, as was sometimes the custom with Rome. (Hayford's Bible Handbook) Again there's no need to be so hung up on this matter.
Yes, we both know that the meaning in Koine Greek times was a stake, but, the reason for my insistence, is that Christians who were eye witnesses saw a cross shaped sauros and described it as a cross. This is why I am so insistant in my videos on the Watchtower. I don't like it when an organization or a new religion teaches inadequate doctrines.
Who is hung up????JW's or other religions?JW's have made a big deal about this!Simple fact is both are right! Jesus died on a stake with a cross beam, that made a T!Most important is that he did die for us!
I agree. I said it before. The WT went too far in that direction. And made it into a hang-up, by being over-scrupulous much. And they never should have made that such an uptight issue. I AGREE !!!! But, this is the part where I differ. The NWT and the WT were VERY CORRECT in saying that the Greek Stavros, 2000 years ago, meant "pole, stake, beam, post, plank" etc, NOT "the shape of the cross". That part is very true.
So then "Torture Stake" would be the more accurate rendering of "Stavros" into English. That's just linquistic fact. The problem is that apostate Christendom (Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Western Protestant) made a FETISH into the cross SHAPE, even. And in their English rendering said "cross cross cross" all the time, when the Greek word "Stavros" technically never originally meant "cross" per SE. The SHAPE was never the main issue around the time of Christ. The substance WOOD was!
The Romans executed people on stakes of VARYING shapes and styles. Some Y shaped, T shaped, some X shaped. Some single beam shaped. Some cross-shaped. And all of those devices were called by the same Greek word "stavros". So the WT needs to grasp that. But overall they are correct in that "stavros" means STAKE. Even if it's cross-shaped, the device is STILL a "torture STAKE". An incidental extra piece in the top area is NOT the main issue. But that it's a wooden POST to begin with. At its BASE.
So there's a reason I'm "saying a lot". To try to thoroughly address and respond to this issue. No one forced you to put this video up, and post this page. Right?? So don't belittle and diss me and my taking the time to discuss this way. I did NOT disrespect you or your thoughts. I just don't totally agree. I agree to AN EXTENT. Cuz I agree that Christ's "stavros" COULD have been cross-shaped, cuz that was one style that the pagan Romans used.
The English term "torture stake" conveys the thought (& the original actual Greek word from 2000 years ago) more accurately & SUBSTANTIVELY than duhhh the word "cross". Again, if it IS translated as "cross" that's not a big deal. So? Cuz we know what's meant by it. "Wooden Cross-Stake". The point is that "stake" is STILL "stake" even if it has an extra cross-piece attached somewhere. The BASE part of it though is still a "stake". It's a wooden POST to BEGIN with. Even with an extra piece on top.
So to be technical, careful, and literal, the more correct translation of the Biblical Greek "Stavros" (or "xylon") would be stake tree pole, post, torture stake etc. NOT the word "cross". IF it was shaped that way (which it may have been admittedly) why should it be CALLED by its possible "shape"??? The shape was not the main issue. WOOOD material was. So "stake" conveys that more accurately. (Even if it was cross-shaped.) What really is so hard to grasp or understand about that SIMPLE POINT?
BUT where YOU guys (and corrupt "Christendom" and the tradition-bound churches) go too far on your end, is by saying that it's ok to TRANSLATE the Greek "Stavros" as "cross" when that's TECHNICALLY HISTORICALLY LINGUISTICALLY IN-ACCURATE !!!!!! "Stavros" 2000 YEARS AGO, did NOT mean "cross" (EVEN IF IT WAS SHAPED LIKE THAT). No matter what cross-obssessed books or lexicons may idiotically write today. The actual literal word BACK THEN at the time simply meant "stake". REGARDLESS of the shape.
well mr kattt..when i was a kid my friends parents made them throw out their cabbage patch dolls.. :)) and the other was a bit harsh mate..my conscience got the better of me...i just wanna have a laugh..
I think your missing the point Joerez8. This video shows how the wbts continue to cherry pick their research and misslead people. They pretty much do this with all their doctrine.
Honestly i dont think it really matter on what Jesus died! Cross or Stake. Either way he dies for us. We are not to use symbols any way acording o the bible. PLus if my son got killed by a gun i would not want people to wear a gun around their necks to remember him.
The Cross is not an idol. Catholics may bow down to it, which I was before I was truly born again. It is not a false god, it is a symbol. Christianity has many symbols, Paul said he gloried in the Cross, does that mean he worshipped it? of course not.
Paul (in the original Greek) did NOT say "I glory in the Cross". He said "I glory in the Torture Stake of Christ." "Stavros", 2000 years ago, did NOT mean "the shape of the cross". This is not opinion or supposition, but simple historical linguistic fact. "Stavros" meant "stake, beam, post, pole" etc. ALTHOUGH some of the wooden stakes had cross-pieces ATTACHED at times. And those were STILL called "stavros" in Greek. Anyway, my point too is that Paul meant it SPIRITUALLY. "Glorying in Stavros"
Yeah, I agree with you in many ways. I already said that, kid. What I DON'T agree with is how since around the 4th century A.D. (A lot of inaccurate pagan junk started around that time, didn't it) is how the Greek word stavros has been idiotically CALLED "cross" by the apostate churches. Technically literally and historically the Greek "stavros", 2000 years ago, did NOT mean "the shape of the cross" per se. But rather meant "stake, pole, beam, post, pale, post." THAT'S JUST LINGUISTIC FACT.
So even though the Romans executed people on devices with VARIOUS shapes(some Y shaped, some T shaped, some cross-shaped, some single post shaped, etc) the same Greek word "stavros" was used to denote them. The shape was NOT the issue. The substance WOOD was the main issue. And that it was a wooden post to begin with. At its BASE. An incidental extra piece attached was not a big deal. Stavros was stavros REGARDLESS of the variant shapes. So "stake" was "stake" EVEN IF IT HAD A CROSS-BAR ATTACHED
Meaning this. That even though the WT has probably gone a wee bit too far in wanting to shun paganism, etc, and being "over-scrupulous" & uptight, granted, the WT's basic point is VALID. That the Greek word "stavros" did NOT originally mean literally 'the shape of the cross', but simply "stake, post, pole" etc. So the NWT is very correct in rendering "stavros" (and "xylon") as "torture stake" or "stake." Cuz EVEN IF Christ's Stavros had a cross-beam, it was STILL a "Torture Stake" of suffering.
This is the point that the video misses. And that you miss. Ok, listen carefully: IT DOESN'T MATTER MUCH WHAT BIASED GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICONS TODAY SAY ABOUT WHAT "STAVROS" MEANS. It doesn't matter that the word "cross" is given as "one of the definitions for stavros" in today's books. CUZ HISTORICALLY THAT'S TECHNICALLY INACCURATE. Simple fact is that 2000 YEARS AGO (not how that Greek word has been CORRUPTED today) the Greek "stavros" did NOT mean "cross" shape, etc. Back THEN, it meant "stake".
We're talking BACK THEN AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME WHEN THE "NEW TESTAMENT" WAS BEING WRITTEN, in first-century common Greek. "Stavros" (and this is not supposition or conjecture either) meant 'post, pole, stake, beam, pale'. It did not ORIGINALLY mean "cross" per se. As a shape or even in the sense of cross-shaped stake. Just cuz (duhh) Greek-English dictionaries & lexicons will idiotically give "cross" as one of the meanings for "stavros" proves only that the ones writing them are TRADITION-BOUND.
And as was stated, it's AGREED that even if a torture stake back then happened to have an extra piece attached, as a cross-beam, the object would STILL be called "stavros" in Greek. THAT PART I AGREE WITH YOU ON. My point though is this: TECHNICALLY THE GREEK WORD "STAVROS" ORIGINALLY ORIGINALLY BACK 2000 YEARS AGO NEVER HAD THE DEFINITION "CROSS". That was a definition that came LATER, from around the 4th century onward. (Tammuz of course playing a role with the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)
Now, given the fact that the ancient Romans were pagans, and believed in things like Tammuz, etc, it's very possible that the "Stavros" of Christ MAY have been cross-shaped, with an extra piece. The point is that it may NOT have too. The Biblical data on His Crucifixion is not explicit enough in that matter. We can't be too dogmatic one way or another. Point though is even if Christ's Torture Stake was "cross-shaped" it STILL should be called a "TORTURE STAKE" cuz THAT'S what "Stavros" meant.
You seem to need to win arguments. You say many words to express yourself. According to the Bible Jesus was nailed to a cross (see part 2) and some writers before the 4th century such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus did say that Jesus was crucified on a cross. So Stavros was correctly translated as Cross in Christian Bibles.
this has nothing really to DO with me, kid. You are very unreasonable and cockeyed about this matter. It's a ridiculous obssession. You're not dealing with a JW here. I agree with them on like 95% of things. This is one area where I SLIGHTLY part ways with them, in a way. I have friends and relatives who are JWs, and I study and research EVERYTHING. I already said I agree with you that Christ's Stavros MAY (or even probably) was cross-SHAPED. That's where the WT goes too far in denying.
"Stavros" meant "stake", 2000 years ago, in Biblical and common first-century Greek. That's not theological bias, but simply historical and Scriptural and linguistic fact. EVEN if a cross-piece was attached at times (which it was, since the Romans used VARIOUS STYLES AND SHAPES, and they were pagans), the Greek "stavros" would be a wooden post to begin with. And still a "stake". A "stake" is still a "stake" even if it's perchance "cross-shaped.". Cuz of the WOOD material. And the base part.
Anyone searching for real scholarly information regarding this needs to look up Pastor & Theologian Gunnar Samuelson. He provides a lot of historical and accurate information regarding why the weapon of execution or crux is unknown. It can be a number of stauros to choose from. The bible no where says that we need a cross or symbol to remember Jesus by or to represent Christianity, its rather pointless to debate this. It's the reason the Christ died that counts and is why we live.
TheDirtyBurd 2 months ago
Actually in Roman times the term 'crucifigo' meant to impale and their most popular form of impalement was one where the condemned was also NAILED to a five-pointed frame or cross. (There were other kinds of crosses called tropaea and furcae.) Two transverse points, one buried point, the fourth the top of the titulus signpost on top and the fifth in the centre upon which the crucified rested or "rode" to his utter disgrace. Google "puzzuoli graffito alcimilla" and you will find that this is so.
EdM021 11 months ago
With all the "troubles" of the world, poverty vs wealth, sickness vs health, the "master's" have the masses arguing over "religion". sad
MercifuILordVoo 1 year ago
i have a new scripture from a new, new testament. black folk 25:52 .... don't trust anything a devil tell's you. lol
MercifuILordVoo 1 year ago
What I canot understand about J.W's and Disfellowship.
Jesus told us to forgive our trespasses.
Do good to those who hate you,
Turn the other cheek
Remember the Sermon on the Mount.
Outside the J.W;s seem nice but inside it appears they are spiteful hypocrites.
ozzymandi 2 years ago
stonewallgregg
If I am right in assuming you are a Witness and that your believes forbid graven images, then why are your publications ,namely .
The Watchtower and Awake so full of colourful images.
The symbol of the tower is also a pagan / ocult symbol
The lightning struck tower in the Tarot cards being an example.
ozzymandi 2 years ago
read acts 10
Jesus did not die on a cross. The bible as usual is in heavy contradiction of itself. One part 'declares' he died on a cross and another says he didnt. Which is it? And while you're all here arguing the toss about some fictitious bullshit, more of your rights are being taken from you. Who the fuck is gonna challenge that? Oh yeah you're all waiting for 'Jesus' or whatever the guys name actually was. By the way, do any of you know? oH I GUESS NOT. I am tired of bullshit religion.
Meriamen 2 years ago
This is going to take a few comment boxes.
I read acts 10. So nice of you to not put in the verse or state what you think it claim. Of course if you did that then everyone would know right away that you didn't know what you're talking about.
Since apparently you have trouble thinking I'll spell it out to you as if you were 5.
(continued)
brwnsftblvr 2 years ago
(continued)
Acts 10:39 states that Jesus was killed by hanging on a tree. Now if you were going to kill someone by torturing them on a cross/stake what material would you use that you could hammer nails into? Wood maybe? how would you get this long beam of would? does a tree trunk work?
If you attach a flag by a couple end points to a flag pole is it hanging from the pole? If you attach a man by a couple point to a cross/stake isn't he also hanging from it?
(continued)
brwnsftblvr 2 years ago
(continued)
Do you see it yet?
We have a man (Jesus), who is hanging (by the nails in his hands and feet), from a tree (cut down and then raised upright on a hill)
Does it make more sense that Paul disagrees with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John or maybe he's finding a different way to say the same thing?
Instead of going with the first picture that pops into you're head when you read that have you tried thinking for 5 seconds about what he might really mean by the words he uses?
brwnsftblvr 2 years ago
making ANY sort of graven image was forbidden in the OT. It always lead to idolatry. It doesnt matter if Jesus was executed on a stake or cross. 1st century christians would never wore crosses regardless...flee from idolatry. Plus, it is a pagan symbol. If Jesus was executed on a star, would it be ok to use a pentagram around your neck or display one on the steeple? Pagan imagery has no place in true christianity. we walk by faith, not by sight.
stonewallgregg 3 years ago
Christians do not use the cross as an idol. It is only a reminder of what he did for us. The blood he shed so we could be free. Its not an idol, its only a reminder.
upliftedworrior 2 years ago
jesus did die on a cross notice in john 20:25..if jesus was crucified on a stake then both hands would have been placed above his head and only one nail would have been needed to go through...(John 20:25, in his hands the print of the nails)
shonekaakaneika 3 years ago
But you wouldn't know how heavy he is to be up on a stake. so he may need more than 1 nail.
QiaoTianXD 2 years ago
The first Stauros is the STIPES which was permantly set into the ground,the second Stauros, was called the PATIBULUM the CROSSBEAM if you want to see what a historically accurate crucifixion looked like, watch the crucifixion scene in "THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST" except they raised the whole cross up. after they nailed his wrists they lifted his body up and fixed the crossbeam to the upright, and nailed his feet or ankles to the stipes.
FreakZilla34 3 years ago
To all those seekers of truth heres convincing proof that the cross should not be used or worshipped by faithful cristians watch these:
watch?v=CNc2exvhdg4&feature=related
watch?v=_dlihhRbVAQ&feature=user
More indisbutable proof that Jesus HAD to die on a stake is found In the book of John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up"
How was Moses snake lifted up? UP ON A STAKE
We see the snake/stake symbol at hospitals today.
vincenz55 3 years ago
I have repeated this many times and I don't have time for a debate. There is NO greek word for "cross" in Koine Greek so whatever pole the Romans used (with or without a cross bar) was called a "stauros". Jesus was put on a pagan cross by pagan Romans, the historical facts are there and Justin Martyr and other writers wrote it down.
Jesus died on a cross.
You will only show proofs that the cross is pagan. Of course it's pagan and so is the "torture stake"
MrKattt 3 years ago
how much are you willing to wager on that jesus died on the cross? your life?
Better think again. Read the scripture!
Its irrefutable proof that Jesus had to die on the single beam torture stake John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up"
How was Moses snake lifted up? UP ON A STAKE
vincenz55 3 years ago
When Jesus spoke of being lifted up like the serpent, he wasn't speaking of the shape of the object of his death, but that because he would be lifted up people would believe in him and have eternal life (read the context, look at the next verse). He was speaking of salvation in the entire chap 3; being born again, God so loved the world (16), he wants the world to be saved (17), read verses 1 to 21.
MrKattt 3 years ago
the single sripture here is talking about the manner jesus was supposed to die not about salavtion(two different subjects). just like the serpent was lifted on the snake(straight single beam) it doesnt say two beams(cross) a stake is a single beam. think about it If jesus died on the cross then the scripture about the above is invalidated. and you and i know thats impossible
vincenz55 3 years ago
The entire context speaks of salvation. The details of the death of Jesus are not the point. A comparison is given on deliverance "The Israelites were freed by puting a snake on a pole" "Jesus would be lifted up" This cannot make a case for the stake or cross. It's a prophecy on deliverance brought by messiah to the people by being "lifted up" doesn't say on what (of course the snake was on a pole, but it doesn't say Jesus was on what). Doesn't have to be the same object, it's not the context.
MrKattt 3 years ago
@MrKattt im sorry but you must be a Complete ID Eye OTits IN WORLD ENCYCLEPEDIAS THAT CONSTANTINE INFACT "CHOSE" THE CROSS! AND CHOSE DECEMBER 21st. Who you gonna trust a Ruthless roman emperor? who forced the people to celebrate christmas and easter? and along with the bishops? and back then they used POLES WAY MORE THAN CROSSES which would explain all the PAGANS hanging out side by the roads by the city
deakon452876 1 year ago
@deakon452876 Actually Constantine got rid of the five pointed execution frame or cross (crux) which criminals were both nailed to and impaled on and replaced it with a tropaeum, which was the votive/victory cross of both the pagan and Imperial religions.
He also invented the combined Roman Catholic / Greek Orthodox Church in 325 CE and criminalised all other forms of Christianity. ALL Christianity today comes from his creation, including the Bible!
EdM021 11 months ago
thats from the old testament read the new testament to see that your belief is wrong
LSDrumline08 3 years ago
LMAO....that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I think maybe you should read the Bible for yourself, and not the watchtower.
upliftedworrior 2 years ago
@vincenz55 : That's what you call "irrefutable proof"....!!!!! hahahahahah that's a good one. Keep em coming I'll wait for the punch lines.
abbyguy 1 year ago
ya know it's impossible for a human (jesus was human when he came down, everyone knows that) to die on a stake, cross, whatever you want to call it, with their hands spread out the way it described jesus' death. it wasn't cross it was a straight peice of wood (u know what i mean), they never used crosses to execute people in the time and place of jesus' death, and why is this regarding just Jws? how much suffering they go through and still get back up, their stronger than u or I and that's true!
austrailianpirate 3 years ago
The facts, the Bible and history show he died on a cross.
MrKattt 3 years ago
yeah.... nice spelling there.... idiot.
austrailianpirate 3 years ago
For someone who went to French school all of his life, my spelling is not that bad. Try writing in an other language.
By the way it's not "ya know" it's "you know".
It's not "yeah", it's "yes"
And maybe you should think about beginning your phrases with a CAPITAL letter.
MrKattt 3 years ago
@austrailianpirate I hope your not really Australian...your comments makes me embarrased to be one! Do your fricken research coz u just sound so damn dumb
ozkaz28 2 months ago
Bottom line is this: Christ PROBABLY was killed on a two-piece cross-shaped Stavros. BUT since "Stavros" originally technically meant "Stake", it's always smarter and safer to call it by its more accurate term. Regardless of the shape, it's still at its core a "Torture Stake" of suffering. The Stake of Reproach & Shame became the Tree of Life, for our Redemption. The Torture Stake of God's Son. JWs celebrate this fact & preach it. Christ's ATONEMENT. And in that we should all glory and hope in.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
EVEN if it had a cross-piece, I don't think it should be CALLED "cross". Cuz that's putting too much emphasis on the shape, and not enough on the substance. The WT emphasizes the SUBSTANCE (wood). Yeah, being a wee bit too uptight about it. But the Roman Catholic Church has made a PAGAN IDOL AND A NEUROTIC FETISH of the actual SHAPE OF THE CROSS, kissing it, wearing it, making the shape with their hands, and calling it that all the time too. No balance it seems.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
But again, where the WT may go too far (though they have the English term "stake" VERY correct) by being dogmatic, the pagan Churches go too far with cross cross cross all the time. But I have lexicons & Bible dictionaries too PUT OUT BY PROTESTANT WRITERS AND THEOLOGIANS that say that "stavros" meant stake, using the word "stake". But simply that it had a cross-beam attached, as was sometimes the custom with Rome. (Hayford's Bible Handbook) Again there's no need to be so hung up on this matter.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
Yes, we both know that the meaning in Koine Greek times was a stake, but, the reason for my insistence, is that Christians who were eye witnesses saw a cross shaped sauros and described it as a cross. This is why I am so insistant in my videos on the Watchtower. I don't like it when an organization or a new religion teaches inadequate doctrines.
MrKattt 3 years ago
Who is hung up????JW's or other religions?JW's have made a big deal about this!Simple fact is both are right! Jesus died on a stake with a cross beam, that made a T!Most important is that he did die for us!
djaxxx51 3 years ago
I agree. I said it before. The WT went too far in that direction. And made it into a hang-up, by being over-scrupulous much. And they never should have made that such an uptight issue. I AGREE !!!! But, this is the part where I differ. The NWT and the WT were VERY CORRECT in saying that the Greek Stavros, 2000 years ago, meant "pole, stake, beam, post, plank" etc, NOT "the shape of the cross". That part is very true.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
So then "Torture Stake" would be the more accurate rendering of "Stavros" into English. That's just linquistic fact. The problem is that apostate Christendom (Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Western Protestant) made a FETISH into the cross SHAPE, even. And in their English rendering said "cross cross cross" all the time, when the Greek word "Stavros" technically never originally meant "cross" per SE. The SHAPE was never the main issue around the time of Christ. The substance WOOD was!
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
The Romans executed people on stakes of VARYING shapes and styles. Some Y shaped, T shaped, some X shaped. Some single beam shaped. Some cross-shaped. And all of those devices were called by the same Greek word "stavros". So the WT needs to grasp that. But overall they are correct in that "stavros" means STAKE. Even if it's cross-shaped, the device is STILL a "torture STAKE". An incidental extra piece in the top area is NOT the main issue. But that it's a wooden POST to begin with. At its BASE.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
So there's a reason I'm "saying a lot". To try to thoroughly address and respond to this issue. No one forced you to put this video up, and post this page. Right?? So don't belittle and diss me and my taking the time to discuss this way. I did NOT disrespect you or your thoughts. I just don't totally agree. I agree to AN EXTENT. Cuz I agree that Christ's "stavros" COULD have been cross-shaped, cuz that was one style that the pagan Romans used.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
The English term "torture stake" conveys the thought (& the original actual Greek word from 2000 years ago) more accurately & SUBSTANTIVELY than duhhh the word "cross". Again, if it IS translated as "cross" that's not a big deal. So? Cuz we know what's meant by it. "Wooden Cross-Stake". The point is that "stake" is STILL "stake" even if it has an extra cross-piece attached somewhere. The BASE part of it though is still a "stake". It's a wooden POST to BEGIN with. Even with an extra piece on top.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
So to be technical, careful, and literal, the more correct translation of the Biblical Greek "Stavros" (or "xylon") would be stake tree pole, post, torture stake etc. NOT the word "cross". IF it was shaped that way (which it may have been admittedly) why should it be CALLED by its possible "shape"??? The shape was not the main issue. WOOOD material was. So "stake" conveys that more accurately. (Even if it was cross-shaped.) What really is so hard to grasp or understand about that SIMPLE POINT?
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
BUT where YOU guys (and corrupt "Christendom" and the tradition-bound churches) go too far on your end, is by saying that it's ok to TRANSLATE the Greek "Stavros" as "cross" when that's TECHNICALLY HISTORICALLY LINGUISTICALLY IN-ACCURATE !!!!!! "Stavros" 2000 YEARS AGO, did NOT mean "cross" (EVEN IF IT WAS SHAPED LIKE THAT). No matter what cross-obssessed books or lexicons may idiotically write today. The actual literal word BACK THEN at the time simply meant "stake". REGARDLESS of the shape.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
keep up the good work mr kattt.your great :)
brendonjnr 3 years ago
Nice new icon! Why did you choose it?
MrKattt 3 years ago
well mr kattt..when i was a kid my friends parents made them throw out their cabbage patch dolls.. :)) and the other was a bit harsh mate..my conscience got the better of me...i just wanna have a laugh..
brendonjnr 3 years ago
cabbage patch dolls are demonized :)-
brendonjnr 3 years ago
mr kattt great research! Thanks!
i was a misled jw 4 39 yrs.
luv4u351 3 years ago
I think your missing the point Joerez8. This video shows how the wbts continue to cherry pick their research and misslead people. They pretty much do this with all their doctrine.
krazzylad 3 years ago
Honestly i dont think it really matter on what Jesus died! Cross or Stake. Either way he dies for us. We are not to use symbols any way acording o the bible. PLus if my son got killed by a gun i would not want people to wear a gun around their necks to remember him.
joerez8 3 years ago
The Cross symbolises payment for our sins. Paul said he gloried in the Cross of Christ.
CrossReach 3 years ago
yes but the bible also says not to make, wear or glorify symbols/idols. im paraphrasing of course
joerez8 3 years ago
Ok, can you please locate those verses and show me. Thanks
CrossReach 3 years ago
ex 20 4,5 1 cor 10 14 must not worship or idolize and symbols made by man. there might be other texts as well. ill look for them
joerez8 3 years ago
The Cross is not an idol. Catholics may bow down to it, which I was before I was truly born again. It is not a false god, it is a symbol. Christianity has many symbols, Paul said he gloried in the Cross, does that mean he worshipped it? of course not.
CrossReach 3 years ago
Paul (in the original Greek) did NOT say "I glory in the Cross". He said "I glory in the Torture Stake of Christ." "Stavros", 2000 years ago, did NOT mean "the shape of the cross". This is not opinion or supposition, but simple historical linguistic fact. "Stavros" meant "stake, beam, post, pole" etc. ALTHOUGH some of the wooden stakes had cross-pieces ATTACHED at times. And those were STILL called "stavros" in Greek. Anyway, my point too is that Paul meant it SPIRITUALLY. "Glorying in Stavros"
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
"ALTHOUGH some of the wooden stakes had cross-pieces ATTACHED at times. And those were STILL called "stavros" in Greek."
Agreed, thanks for proving my point.
MrKattt 3 years ago
Yeah, I agree with you in many ways. I already said that, kid. What I DON'T agree with is how since around the 4th century A.D. (A lot of inaccurate pagan junk started around that time, didn't it) is how the Greek word stavros has been idiotically CALLED "cross" by the apostate churches. Technically literally and historically the Greek "stavros", 2000 years ago, did NOT mean "the shape of the cross" per se. But rather meant "stake, pole, beam, post, pale, post." THAT'S JUST LINGUISTIC FACT.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
So even though the Romans executed people on devices with VARIOUS shapes(some Y shaped, some T shaped, some cross-shaped, some single post shaped, etc) the same Greek word "stavros" was used to denote them. The shape was NOT the issue. The substance WOOD was the main issue. And that it was a wooden post to begin with. At its BASE. An incidental extra piece attached was not a big deal. Stavros was stavros REGARDLESS of the variant shapes. So "stake" was "stake" EVEN IF IT HAD A CROSS-BAR ATTACHED
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
Meaning this. That even though the WT has probably gone a wee bit too far in wanting to shun paganism, etc, and being "over-scrupulous" & uptight, granted, the WT's basic point is VALID. That the Greek word "stavros" did NOT originally mean literally 'the shape of the cross', but simply "stake, post, pole" etc. So the NWT is very correct in rendering "stavros" (and "xylon") as "torture stake" or "stake." Cuz EVEN IF Christ's Stavros had a cross-beam, it was STILL a "Torture Stake" of suffering.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
This is the point that the video misses. And that you miss. Ok, listen carefully: IT DOESN'T MATTER MUCH WHAT BIASED GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICONS TODAY SAY ABOUT WHAT "STAVROS" MEANS. It doesn't matter that the word "cross" is given as "one of the definitions for stavros" in today's books. CUZ HISTORICALLY THAT'S TECHNICALLY INACCURATE. Simple fact is that 2000 YEARS AGO (not how that Greek word has been CORRUPTED today) the Greek "stavros" did NOT mean "cross" shape, etc. Back THEN, it meant "stake".
sweetmikser 3 years ago
We're talking BACK THEN AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME WHEN THE "NEW TESTAMENT" WAS BEING WRITTEN, in first-century common Greek. "Stavros" (and this is not supposition or conjecture either) meant 'post, pole, stake, beam, pale'. It did not ORIGINALLY mean "cross" per se. As a shape or even in the sense of cross-shaped stake. Just cuz (duhh) Greek-English dictionaries & lexicons will idiotically give "cross" as one of the meanings for "stavros" proves only that the ones writing them are TRADITION-BOUND.
sweetmikser 3 years ago
And as was stated, it's AGREED that even if a torture stake back then happened to have an extra piece attached, as a cross-beam, the object would STILL be called "stavros" in Greek. THAT PART I AGREE WITH YOU ON. My point though is this: TECHNICALLY THE GREEK WORD "STAVROS" ORIGINALLY ORIGINALLY BACK 2000 YEARS AGO NEVER HAD THE DEFINITION "CROSS". That was a definition that came LATER, from around the 4th century onward. (Tammuz of course playing a role with the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)
sweetmikser 3 years ago
Now, given the fact that the ancient Romans were pagans, and believed in things like Tammuz, etc, it's very possible that the "Stavros" of Christ MAY have been cross-shaped, with an extra piece. The point is that it may NOT have too. The Biblical data on His Crucifixion is not explicit enough in that matter. We can't be too dogmatic one way or another. Point though is even if Christ's Torture Stake was "cross-shaped" it STILL should be called a "TORTURE STAKE" cuz THAT'S what "Stavros" meant.
sweetmikser 3 years ago
You seem to need to win arguments. You say many words to express yourself. According to the Bible Jesus was nailed to a cross (see part 2) and some writers before the 4th century such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus did say that Jesus was crucified on a cross. So Stavros was correctly translated as Cross in Christian Bibles.
MrKattt 3 years ago
this has nothing really to DO with me, kid. You are very unreasonable and cockeyed about this matter. It's a ridiculous obssession. You're not dealing with a JW here. I agree with them on like 95% of things. This is one area where I SLIGHTLY part ways with them, in a way. I have friends and relatives who are JWs, and I study and research EVERYTHING. I already said I agree with you that Christ's Stavros MAY (or even probably) was cross-SHAPED. That's where the WT goes too far in denying.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
For better emphasis for why Paul and other Christians glorify IN the Cross, Luke 9:23-24.
LRoc145 3 years ago
"Stavros" meant "stake", 2000 years ago, in Biblical and common first-century Greek. That's not theological bias, but simply historical and Scriptural and linguistic fact. EVEN if a cross-piece was attached at times (which it was, since the Romans used VARIOUS STYLES AND SHAPES, and they were pagans), the Greek "stavros" would be a wooden post to begin with. And still a "stake". A "stake" is still a "stake" even if it's perchance "cross-shaped.". Cuz of the WOOD material. And the base part.
MuscleSculptor 3 years ago
I agree, like the video says, even with a cross beam it's still a "Stauros" and Jesus died on a cross.
MrKattt 3 years ago