Your point stands that both Venomfangx and Thunderf00t have serious and persistant beef with each other, not just in ideology, but on a personal level. But why do you think that Venomfangx suddenly needs an "internet hard-man" standing beside him who basically agrees with everything he says in his videos? Seems to me that would hurt his position even further.
Idiot of the Day Award to you! It took all of ten seconds of this video to get what you are about. The fact that you look away from the camera 90% demonstrates your pretentious attitude more of grade school know-it-all than anything else. Maybe you could get a sponsorship from Ivory or Coast... tell them you'll stand on their soapbox during your rants. Congrats on the award, you've earned it!
Nice reference to the Star Trek episode from the original series. Oh man did I just out myself as a massive geek? With this whole ocean currents thing a couple of points. First of all Murray didn't 'discover' ocean currents he mapped them. People knew about ocean currents for millennia, even before the Bible was written. Murray was also a product of his time. A Victorian era gentleman giving credit to God/Bible is hardly surprising. It's a poor choice and proves nothing
@HeavyTrafficAhead I totally agree with you, it was not even an answer to the Strawman challenge VenomfangX created and IrRationalRoundtable Defended, never mind to the actual Challenge that Thunderf00t issued. I think Christians sometimes think the rest of us a retards they can get any old Bovine manure past, that reading a script in a convincing manner will somehow cut the mustard, Sorry to burst your deluded bubble folks, it won't wash. We are entitled to apologies and retractions.
@TheTomtompiper I was just remarking on the example given by VFX (which isn't originally his BTW. I've heard it before). All the other remarks and observations that RR made in this video I generally agree with and I thought his comparison with the ST episode was apt. These two characters have just made this shit personal
@HeavyTrafficAhead Yeah I think it is personal now, I think TF probably regrets not going for the jugular the first time, if the shoe had of been on the other foot Shaun would have put the boot well and truly in. But my problem with RR is that he knows full well that Shauns answer was a red herring and yet he defended it as "a perfectly good answer." this is just plain lying and it sickens me to see such partisanship from a person with a name that implies rational thought
@TheTomtompiper Well I'll give RR the benefit of the doubt on this one. Which is the reason I made the comment. He may have been unaware of that angle regarding Murray. What he says about it now is more important. However, I may be unaware that someone else, either in video or comment, may have already brought it up. With all that goes on with the interaction of someone who makes videos on YT sometimes you can't keep up with everything that's going on.
@HeavyTrafficAhead Now that TheLivingDinosaur thas shown that Shaun doctored his sources and that there is no proof that the event he described ever took place, where does this leave RR now? Do you think he will ever take the chance we have given him to make his position clear, or will he live with the lie?
It seems this generation has lost the ability to simply say "I believe you are wrong, and this is why I believe it." For some reason people are not satisfied with coming to a mutual understanding - they HAVE to win the argument.
While my personal beliefs are such that I'd label myself an atheist, I take pride in actually listening to the opinions of others. I am, however, disappointed in Shawn for banning me from his channel for what I believe was a difference in opinion.
I'm very torn on this video. For the first 5 minutes, your measured and calculated retelling of your interactions with Shawn speak volumes about your own level of comfort with those interactions. To be the unbiased commentator you attempt to be on this issue, I'd recommend not having interactions with either of these jack-holes.
However, I find your analogy to the Star Trek episode - specifically Kirk's quote - to be spot on. I believe it is too late for these two.
Yes, you're probably right - but I think that's possibly more to do with "not having run into them yet", or "their not being a 'significant' percentage in the YouTube population" than a case of "not being there"...
In "real life" I know far more 'moderates' than I do either 'extreme' in terms of "personality" ;-)
From a UK perspective, the YT 'norm' from the US seems just as 'polarised' - hence the likes of yourself & AA being so refreshing with focus on "discourse" not "win"
Societies psychic sickness is a direct result from the inability to lift their brother up, and consider them of worth. The religious extremist seem to be the worst of offenders but certainly " anyone " is capable of hatred and violence from severe suppression. And in this day and age.. surpassing the limits of days gone by.. a culmination of emptiness and restlessness is felt throughout the world.
Thunderfoot and Venomfangx are both at that stage in their youtube 'careers' where they are probably doing far more harm than good to their own respective viewpoints.
I remember that Star Trek video - back in the early days when they had a few good script writers and it was still science fiction, not a space soap opera. Happy days.
Well there is one way to look at this. Diametrically opposed positions that destroy themselves may not be the most desirable outcome for either involved party, but it makes for great Star Trek episodes and it makes for great entertainment here on YT. After all, we are all here commenting on THEM, aren't we? I favor Thunderf00t overall, but I agree that both of them are very similar in their differences and are taking these arguments far too personally. "Spite" is what is evil, not disagreement.
I agree with both of them on various points... I agree with Thunderf00t about the benefits of science, and with VFX on the benefits of faith. However unlike both of them I see no conflict between the two.
Finally, I don´t hink TF hates Shawn, he stood up for him in his "darkest youtube hour"....but Shawn does indeed hate or at the very least despise TF (mouth of Satan according to him) .
They are not "two sides of the same coin"....one has intellectual honesty, the other one not. You´re very intelligent, you will figure this out sooner or later. Peace.
@fedea82 While I don't think either hate each other, what they do is nothing new when it comes to human fallibility. But that's not the issue here. Now, you consider name calling such as "mouthpiece of satan" (that's "'pathetic mouth piece of satan") to be signs of hate, than thunderf00t's own name calling, by your own standards is a sign of hate. VFX is using PMS, and TF's using PCS. Whatever TF00t did in the past, it doesn't seem to reflect on his actions today.
@gellymatos Posterboy for creationist stupidity....that´s despise, not hate. Pathetic mouth of Satan....well, let´s just say that does seem hateful...Shawn won´t admit that sentiment, being christian and all.The videos of TF are a consequence of VFX´s new videos, exactly like the old videos....and TF´s actions don´t resemble "stealing sick kids charity money", "filling false dmca´s" "falsely accusing someone of pedophilia". AGAIN, they are not two sides of the same coin. That´s the issue.
@fedea82 First, remember that I said that I don't believe either hold any true hate for each other. That said, is despise really so much better? Look at both definitions (hate and despise) side by side (I'm using Merriam-Webster in this case). I believe that it's more an willingness to put each other down out of mutual disrespect. Hate is hardly the only reason to apply labels. Also, the videos here are nothing like his old videos, even in their flaws. There's nothing close ....(continued)
@gellymatos (continued)... to "filing false DMCA's" or "falsely acccusing someone of pedophilia" in VFX's recent vids. And the past actions of either of them, for better or worse are irrelevant in this case, unless there's some consistent action from the past that is present now, of which i do see in both, but nothing to the degree in which you've mentioned. Whatever anyone thinks of the "two sides of the same coin" comment, either did before isn't the issue, it's what they've done this time.
@gellymatos And why should I care what YOU think about "what´s the issue"? I made the first comment, and the issue of my comment IS what I state it is. And no, despise is what I feel for religious bull, and it´s not hate!
Let me guess, you´re a christian, god forgave Shawn, and that´s it? Now he´s equally credible to TF? Fuck off.
@gellymatos And THIS TIME, TF made a challenge to Shawn (the challenge being kind of lame), in which he replied with BULLSHIT examples that could fit any book, not with examples of actual advanced science inspired by the bible. So don´t give me crap!
TF has always, you hear, always been this way, he stretches some arguments to lame extents. Always.
But Shawn is much worse, he is full of shit now too, and regarding his behaviour he STILL has not done bad things, alleluyha!
@fedea82 You assume to much. First, you are right, I am a christian. But I don't care for VFX. Actually, I prefer TF, he's still contributed much more postively than VFX ever has. I never intended to say anything about God forgiving VFX. And even if I did, and assuming that were even true, it would still have no relevance to who has made the better case in VFX and TF's lastest bout of vids and counter vids. You get pissy at me, assume way to much of my own opinion, and tell me ...(continued)
@gellymatos (continued)... to fuck off? Laughable really. As for "what's the issue", I addressed your issue. And as I said, whatever TF or VFX have done in the past is irrelevant to whoever has the better argument in this specific case. Simple as that. And as for your hate, oh sorry, "despising" of religion, watch out. You already assumed to much about me due to "despising". Honestly, I don't have time or enough space in posts to fully explain TF's issues. I (continued)...
@gellymatos ....(continued) think rationalroundtable's vids explain the current problems well enough. And I'm equally sick at both of them at this point.
@gellymatos Well whatever, you are the one bothering me, telling me what the issue is, etc., when all I did was to post a comment to RRT. I want to talk to him? Get it?
Now: it´s not my intention to argue with you, and if you don´t see MY ISSUE, MY INTENTION, THE MEANING OF MY COMMENT, or if you don´t agree with it, fine, but leave me the fuck alone!!!
Or in little crispy flowery beautiful non-offensive, apt for all ages language: please restrain from replying at me, thank you very much.
@fedea82 Bothering u? U had no problem with me when i made my first comment to you, you responded civily, not showing any annoyance. Not your intention to argue with me? Why respond to my post with your own counter point? Don't whine about me bothering you after not only responding to me in the first place, but getting "annoyed" after jumping to conclusions about me when I didn't agree with you, telling me to fuck off, and requiring me to correct you in your blatantly hasty assumptions. Get it?
@gellymatos my thoughts as well..all though I don't know neither that well..VFX seems condescending in his approach, lacks the needed respect. I did like his " sorry " video however..but if the beast comes back into the house after its been swept clean.. then legions of psychic repression is imminent.
RRT: Shawn´s arguments are bullshit....yes, the bible or ANY BOOK may inspire scientific hypothesis, but Shawn´s examples are prepostorous and the dicoveries he mentions could be inspired by ANY book, because they are lame dicoveries. Come on, I mean...faster ocean routes, washing your hands....you really buy that without the bible those insights were not going to appear?
I never said that these ideas would not come about without the Bible, I do not suggest that the Bible is a source for scientific information. That being said I also do not think that religion is in conflict with science... unless you happen to be a YEC.
@RationalRoundtable You did suggest to TF to reply to Shawn, tough. It gives the impression that you accept his answer as valid, sorry if I misinterpreted you.
I´m not a yec, it´s my opinion tough that to be religious you must have faith in things you can´t get solid evidence of. And that conflicts with science, yes. Also with logic.
Any religion is a lie until proven right. In any other domain of knowledge evidence is required.
“to be religious you must have faith in things you can´t get solid evidence of. And that conflicts with science, yes. Also with logic.”
Does faith mean believing things you cannot prove? Yes. Does this directly conflict with science? Only if someone alters scientific findings to match their faith. Does it conflict with logic? No, unless one rejects objective evidence based on faith.
“Any religion is a lie until proven right. In any other domain of knowledge evidence is required.”
This is just dogmatic thinking, unless for the sake of consistency you think that anything anyone ever says is a lie unless proven right? This would seem absurd to me. It would appear that you simply presuppose that religion is wrong, but I doubt that you presuppose that everything is a lie without evidence…
Why do you lie about Shaun answering TF's challenge when he patently did not? TF asked Shaun to use his Bible to come up with a new Scientific breakthrough , inspire by his Gos words. This was not done and yet you claim it was? Your name would seem to be misleading, I suggest you add "Ir" to the front of your name to make it accurate.
I did not lie... TF challenged Shawn specifically to name any scientific discovery that had it's origins in the Bible, Shawn responded that Matthew Maury discovered oceanic currants after being inspired by Psalm 8... it would now be up to TF to debunk that claim, or admit that Shawn was right... instead he simply ignored it.
@RationalRoundtable Here is a Transcript of Thunderf00t's Challenge to VenomfangX when he boasted about having access to special knowledge.
"All you have to do is come up with some great Nobel Prize winning discovery between you and your God, and source it to the Bible."
Please tell me how Shaun had anything to do with Matthew Maury mapping the Ocean currents (He did not discover them, another lie.) and how could Matthew Maury win a Nobel prize, he died before they existed? Your Rep is gone.
@RationalRoundtable Furthermore Thunderf00t specifically stated in his challenge the the Great Nobel winning Discovery must be currently unknown to Science, so Shaun Strawmanned the challenge, and now you lie about it to further your own ends, an action that is as Irrational as it is Unchristian. Your reputation for fairness lies in tatters, you have been exposed for a partisan and duplicitous apologist dressed in the clothes of a thinking man.
perhaps VenomFangX and Thunderf00t should have a digital debate through webcam and post the ending result with a median official who is biased on both sides. there could be three topics and it could last thirty minutes or longer. yay or nay?
I haven't really followed the VFX and TF debate but I have to say this video was compulsive viewing. I actually found it hard to believe it had lasted 12 mins so drawn in was I.
What the heck is with you British atheists anyway? You guys are eather truly great like you and DLandonCole, or total jerks like Thunderf00t or DPRJones... I just don't get it...
ROFL (regards your comment on British atheists to noelplum99) ;-)
The same could be said of British theists - some can be complete dunce-caps; some can be really nice guys (and gals) - just the same as US theists & atheists ;-)
I think the real "truth" on that, is simply that some people can be utter 'tools' - regardless of their beliefs ;-)
(yeah, I know - obvious statement is obvious - rofl) ;-)
fair enough but my friends across the pond just seem a bit more extreme... they are ether VERY good or VERY bad... there are lots of American YouTubers who are somewhere in between...
@RationalRoundtable BTW - i've checked out some of your previous vids where you criticize Tf00t, and i'm not speaking now to challenge any of that. i admit to being a subscriber to his channel, but you won't hear me say he's a saint, or the YT equivalent of Yoda. But it does feel like your previous dislike of him is clouding your judgement in the whole Tf00t vs VFX debacle. Sorry for the numerous comments.
I fully admit I have been quite harsh with TF in the past, however that being said if VFX were posting videos like his old stuff (before the DMCA crap) I would have been just as harsh with him.
Don't get me wrong... I like some of TF's work (the real science stuff, not his religious commentary) and he has a great voice, and a great ability to produce videos, but what he has been doing lately is frankly a waste of talent.
@RationalRoundtable So... a couple of things. First of all, another nice video. Secondly, i'm not sure why you are so surprised by Shawn's inability to mature. He's proved that to YT time and again. Frankly, i'd be shocked if he did. Third, why the disgust for Tf00t and DPR? Weren't these the guys who agreed to not sue Shawn back to the stone age when they had every right to, instead (along with several other YT'ers who Shawn locked horns with) extended hands of friendship to Shawn and (cont)
thank you for the kind words, as far as the TF and DPR stuff involving VFX over a year ago, that has no bearing on their currant behavior. I do think that they are motivated by hate however, not the way you might be thinking, it is the same kind of hate that breeds all forms of bigotry.
Sure some of TF's comments could be chalked up to arrogance, but things like calling him PCS, even insulting his friend for no apparent reason etc, is not arrogance, it is hate.
@RationalRoundtable Hey there. Glad you understand that i'm not trying to troll - i really do like what i see in your vids, and you seem like a cool guy. But i have to disagree with you about the hate thing. And no disrespect intended, but you strike me as being perpetually in the corner of the christian - not saying that's true, but it's hard to shake that impression when you land so solidly on busting TF for even little things, and ignoring or being more forgiving of VFX's infractions (cont)
@RationalRoundtable (continued) ... which are far worse. This series began as a way to critique TF & VFX's exchanges, so far i've only seen TF call VFX and his friend stupid (or the like) while VFX insists TF is a puppet of Satan and that TF is encouraging us all to commit suicide - seriously, which of these two things is worse? Anyway, i suppose this back and forth on the comment page is not the best way to debate you, but i appreciate the dialogue. Consider yourself subbed.
@RationalRoundtable (continued) ... his family, working with Shawn's father to come to a peaceful resolution to the cluster**** of lies and dirty tactics that VFX admitted to in a Skype conversation between Tf00t, Dpr, Shawn, Shawn's dad, and others...? Did i imagine all of that? Again, i think there's a larger picture that you are not aware of. i mean, if you dislike/disagree with Tf00t & Dpr, fine... but when many other YT'ers wanted to go to town on Shawn with a tire iron... (cont)
@RationalRoundtable (continued) ... Tf00t & Dpr stood up and defended him, insisting that Shawn's family be left out of the hole Shawn himself had dug, and that Shawn be given the chance to improve himself (a chance that he appears to have ignored or else weaseled his way out of). Have you missed all of this? Or is there something that i have missed? Honestly, i don't mean to go on and on, nor do i want to seem belligerent towards you - i just don't understand your position...
@RationalRoundtable "I see 2 people who just hate each other..." Seriously? i see one filled with hate, and another filled with... well, maybe arrogance (at worst). You can point out the argumentative flaws of the latter if you like - i won't challenge that. But to say Tf00t is full of hate for Shawn... after going to bat for him when he was at his lowest moment, and Shawn himself admitted to and was grateful for (or so he claimed) the generosity of Tf00t and Dpr... really?
I too had high hopes from the opening salvos. But yes - "Hammer meet Nail"...
I also endorse this message - in addition to the hate issue, there is far too much that happens on YouTube (now dubbed YouTumor on my channel) that is "for the win" instead of "for the discourse"...
Any 'argument' that seeks such "win" through undermining the 'person' rather than the 'content' is, in my opinion, an automatic "fail" (politics included) on all counts.
Any 'argument' that seeks such "win" through undermining the 'person' rather than the 'content' is, in my opinion, an automatic "fail" (politics included) on all counts.
I had a little hope that VFX matured since his comeback, but unfortunately it seems that people don’t change. You would be awesome at a job that involved diplomatic negotiations between rival groups or countries.
Unfortunately, theres a certain titallation to watching, from the sidelines, people argue-the more hate the better.Kind of like the gladiator fights in ancheint Rome. Yet, in the grande sceme of things-outside of our own desire for entertainment, the hate is wrong and shouldnt be encouraged.
Don't get me wrong... I love a good fight as much as the next guy... even one that has people getting pissed off at each other, but the VFX/TF thing is just getting so childish that it is becoming just silly.
Really you think they hate each other? They both just have either mostly bad arguments or non-arguments and are overzealous in defending their respective bad positions.
I have to agree, I'm sure there was a great discussion somewhere in all of this. It seems to have been lost in name calling though. I would rather see them steam over these more petty things before they go back to a serious discussion. Really VenomFangX while not cursing as some people on that side care so deeply about. Calling Thunderf00t the MPS, is just not excusable, because it has such malicious intent.
agreed... I think that these two are smart enough to have a good discussion... even a passionate one... but they are so consumed by their dislike of each other that they forget to attack the issue, they just attack each other.
@RationalRoundtable When ever I talk to someone who is very strongly against or for religion there is only one thing I care about. Getting them to accept their belief COULD be wrong.
Yes they do forget to attack the real issue more often than not. I've had a chat with VFX once, and he would avoid the point of most things I said. Although with VFX he does seem more interested in the person attacks... That is just what I see though. I could be wrong. Still a lovely video with a great point.
@RationalRoundtable take every positive thing you could use to describe this video, and you've got "beast" lol in other words, this was right on the money
I was fine with TF when he did his point-for-point debunking of VFX and others attempts at playing scientist. Those videos (and similar videos made by others) were informative and effective while still being amusing. Unfortunately, he has been sucked into the mess that is VFXs world and is being beaten by experience...
I did not follow VenomFangX before he ever confronted Thunderf00t, so I cannot comment as to who sucked who into this stupidity. In the end it does not matter who threw the first low blow... but one them needs to be willing to stop for this to get any better.
@RationalRoundtable No it doesn't matter, but consider it a solution. If TF returned to making videos debunking bogus scientific claims that VFX (and others) make and leave his opinions about world religions out of it then he can raise himself out of the muck.
Unfortunately, I think your point was well made that these two only have the fight left...I don't see either changing their tune anytime soon. Oh well ...
Great Video. I thoughtr after Shawn accepted your critique of your video, it would have created a less inflammatory discourse. I was wrong of course. Michael please do a video criticising thunderf00t's video as you are the one at the moment who seems to e doing it honestly and without adhomens. Hopefully he will respond. Personally I want you to get ionto a debate with someone as it would be beter than this.
Thank you Gary, I do not think that Thunderf00t has any interest in taking me on... he obviously want to only engage people that he feels he can beet without thinking. I did send a PM to Thunderf00t, but he has not responded at all.
@RationalRoundtable I hadn't really thought to connect this with Star Trek, so I wouldn't have seen it had you not made the connection. Live long and prosper.
I hope they eventually come to grok the error of their ways.
Though I am a Christian, I do agree with what you said. Shawn and Tf00t need to get off of each other's throats. Shawn only has himself to blame for the debacle he made before he left YouTube, and his verbal fencing with Tf00t is not helping his reputation. Tf00t is just full of himself. Name-calling is not going to help matters. There comes a point where we have to shake the proverbial dust off of our feet and leave. Shawn must learn that that point has come, and to let go.
That was overly dramatic. As you note, I'm an atheist defending thunderf00t - I do not believe thunderf00t hates Venom. If he did, he had a chance to really screw him when Venom false DMCAed a bunch of people and all they asked for was a public apology. They could have sent him to prison. I do think thuderboy has lost his thunder. Venom made his channel and he's trying to half-hartedly repeat his past success.
I am encouraged by the 'next generation' of YouTubers... Skierkowa, AbusiveAntitheist, Fitcheyfulthinking, Thunderbolt94 all many times better than both VFX and TF in my opinion... I look forward to the day that these guys are the top dogs rather than the crap we tend to see now.
Mr.Crawford, can you please tell me what software can provide me with basic simple features to edit videos? I am trying to make some iphone apps reviews, but I cant cut and stich them without the software. Any advice is appreciated.
at the low end of the price scale you could get Adobe Premiere Elements, it is the stripped down version of Premiere Pro which is the editor that I use. I had Elements before I got pro, it is good for editing, but it does not have all the bells and whistles. Which you do not need right now.
This pretty much sums it up... I would like them to be more like the enemies in the episode "Balance of Terror". At least there these mortal enemies retain a certain amount of respect for each other, even in face of imminate destruction. I don't mean for any side to be "destroyed", that was not my point, yet it would be a commendable thing to respect - at least as far as it's possible, the discourse would certainly benefit from that - each other, so that a reasonable discourse remains possible.
Great diagnosis of the situation. I wholeheartedly agree. Neither of them are champions of any sort. Frankly I think that with TF's behaviour toward Dawah, his remarks to Shawn and his sometimes shocking ignorance of Philosophy that his days on YT are coming to a close.
I wish I could agree, but TF is just as popular as he has ever been, people love the childish attacks for some reason. I would not be surprised if VFX becomes as popular as he was in his heyday as well.
This video is over 12 minutes but all these constant pauses between speaking, should've taken like half the time.
Stating your opinion on how both Thunderf00t and VenomfangX are responding to each other is neutral, but keeping score when you have stated multiple times that you're Christian is probably biased, whether or not it's intentional.
on issues such as these it would be darn near imposable to be truly 'unbiased' but if I were going to give VFX the benefit of the doubt just because he is a fellow Christian don't you think I would have given him a higher score? I do not try to hide the fact that I am a Christian, but I am also a lover of science so I see things on both sides I agree with, but that is irrelevant, my 'score' is not based on agreement with the person, only on how effectively he argued for his side.
as for the long pauses... this video was not scripted like all the videos I have done this year, during the pauses I was thinking of what I wanted to say next. Sorry if you found it annoying, but most of the time I try to flow at a bit faster pace.
What I find far more amusing is that people expect more from thunderf00t, but always think that their opinion on any given situation counts. That, and the endless dramatisation of youtube "celebrity".
VFX dug his own hole when he started posting false DMCAs. Tf defended himself without demanding VFX pay the legal consequences for a clear case of perjury. For this, he is made out to have committed some great deception? I think that just shows there are bigger problems with public opinions
none of my comments are about the past, except to say that there is a reason that VFX has earned a negative reputation. Also, I offer my opinion not because I think it 'counts' but only because my subscribers seem to enjoy it. My commentary on VFX and TF are my highest viewed, liked, and favorited videos.
@RationalRoundtable Interestingly, you assume most of my comments are about your videos. In actual fact they were written about some the comments being left on your videos, particularly the ones that paint Tf in a negative light which I believe to be unfair. VFX earned his reputation, Tf didn't.
OK, so the drama appeals to most people, but most people are happy to jump on bandwagons, which is why the debate between creationists and Atheists never moves forwards
@aveyowyns True this isn't a scientific journal, but he tried to pass these off as his own words and didn't give citations. And he gave citations for other quotes he used, so why not give citations for these ones also? If he's going to go around professing to be following the Bible and tell others they're acting immorally but not practice what he preaches himself, his dishonesty should be brought to light.
Okay... I'll give you that, but at the same time, "you don't want thunderf00t to find out," doesn't really show that you care much about whether or not he succeeds in being moral.
I have seen various videos from Christians using these same verses over and over... it is an old argument, but that does not mean that it is not a legitimate point to bring up. Granted it is not one that I would use, but it was at least relevant to the discussion.
Well, given the messy state of affairs, it's a relief to see that someone still has his head screwed on!
Nah...this is the best video I've seen on this issue by a mile, and since you're one of the best YouTubers I know, I wouldn't have expected anything less.
Thank you, truly you are too kind... I am thankful that some people appreciate my videos, but I would hardly list myself in any 'best of' list on YouTube.
I slightly disagree with what you say. I really don;t know what drives Sean but with Thunderf00t I doubt it's hate, seems to me it's a Tin God out of his depth.
It was all going so well for TF, subscribers, nice little channel based on charactor assassination not argument, lots of bushy tailed followers swallowing his religious sciencetism.
Then he got delusions, tried to be an intellectual, wasn't up to it & now he want's to recover face, but in every attempt loses more, he's desperate.
In Thunderf00t's defense, he has done some good science videos, however when he attacks people is when his views go up, and his channel, like most, is not about a specific agenda, rather just what gives him the most views. I am as guilty of this as anyone else, people ask me why do I stick my nose into the VFX/TF fight, and the answer is simple, I get more views on those videos.
I do think that TF's attacks with VFX is more personal though, and I do think that hate is the motive.
".....and his channel, like most, is not about a specific agenda, rather just what gives him the most views."
You know, even as someone who has myself been openly critical of Tf00t i have to take issue with you on that statement, because it just seems too much of a sweeping statement. Sure, there is some truth in what you say but he also makes a large number of videos that he will clearly realise in advance are of marginal interest to most people.
I would agree with you in part, yes TF and others do videos on subjects they care about, and yes TF has likely done videos just out of love for the subject matter (his astronomy stuff comes to mind) but during the time that VFX was gone, TF went from user to user looking for a new 'PCS' to fight, be it 'howtheworldworks' or 'DawahFilms' or Neff, he was looking for someone he could attack, during the times that he did not do this, his views went down.
I agree with you in that he certainly does like a focus for his intellectual ire and i am quite sure that this, along with some other aspects of his output, has an eye to viewership concerns (though, as you say, let he who is without sin in this regard, cast the first virtual stone).
Personally i would have no problem with that if he stuck to the issues not the personalities.
I commented on shawn's video that he obviously didn't see your last review, since his video was just more adhom's and misrepresentations of tf00ts arguments. and now hearing that he actually was in contact with you, makes that video even more ridiculous. tf00t is only participating in this back and forth for the drama and the views, I don't have any expectations of him raising the standards. Vfx is also just looking for views and that's why he keeps playing the same game tf00t does
Thank you... of course if they actually took my advise... I might have to find other things to talk about... but that is a problem I would not mind having to be honest.
So, instead of "Third time's a charm", it's more like the third movie in a series. X-Men 3, Spider-Man 3, Return of the Jedi, Back to the Future, Part 3, Matrix: Revolutions, etc.
Wait, that last movie does NOT exist -- not does the second. There is only ONE Matrix movie. (lalala, I can't hear you!)
I'll give "The Search for Spock" a pass... IMO, it's the best of the odd numbered Treks and is, IMO, underrated.
Good analysis. I knew that was the episode you were going to mention.
@firefly4f4 Good Sir and or Mam, I politely request that you remove Return of The Jedi from your otherwise flawless list of shitastic third movies. I would be more then happy to come to a compromise and allow the usage of Revenge of the Sith. But please, leave Return of The Jedi out of this.
You misunderstand me. I only include RotJ as poor in comparison to the first two (and quite apart from the prequels). This is the same reason BttFP3 is included -- not terrible, just paling in comparison to the first two.
TSfS does happen to be better than the first movie in the Trek line, so it gets an exception for not being the worst of the three.
Perhaps Terminator 3 would have been a better example? :)
@RationalRoundtable You know, I've somehow never watched the Alien franchise, aside from the occasional clip. It may be because it's only recently I've developed an interest in horror, and these always seemed more horror than sci-fi. I'm aware of their reputation, but that's it.
Dude, I just said like yesterday on one of Thunderf00t's videos that VFX and TF are two sides of the same coin! I don't see how this video can be offensive, except maybe by the fact that you didn't give a spoiler alert, I am currently watching through the original Star Trek Episodes.
I think we need to dethrone TF and VFX and make you and AAT the most popular channels in your respective groups.
As much as I would love to assume the VFX mantle, well as the saying goes, "Flys go to s**t, not gold" I love Charles, and I think he would be a great atheist to lead that side, but he will never be that popular, he is too rational, reasonable, and willing to talk to theists. People love watching people tear each other down, call it 'Jerry Springer Syndrome' Sorry for the spoiler, considering that the show aired 40 years ago I did not consider that someone might not have seen it.
@RationalRoundtable That’s what I'm saying, people should stop flying to $_!t and start flying to gold. There are like two "circuits" on the theist-atheist youtube debate. The aggressive one with Thunderf00t, Venom Fang X and others. The more peaceful one with You, Abusive Anti-Theist and others. Unfortunately the more aggressive one is more popular. I mentioned the spoiler to show that I think your video is so un-offensive that that is the most offensive thing I could find in it.
Unfortunately it seems that people are much more attracted to over the top flame wars then to reasonable discussion. I am sure that if I posted emotional rant after rant on all the various issues I have talked about I would have double the subscribers I currently have, but I just can't bring myself to do that.
this guys as bad as venomfangx about thinking a condescending attitude makes him more intelligent.
SuperPimpjj 10 months ago
Your point stands that both Venomfangx and Thunderf00t have serious and persistant beef with each other, not just in ideology, but on a personal level. But why do you think that Venomfangx suddenly needs an "internet hard-man" standing beside him who basically agrees with everything he says in his videos? Seems to me that would hurt his position even further.
TheShoguneagle 1 year ago
good piont
festum666 1 year ago
Idiot of the Day Award to you! It took all of ten seconds of this video to get what you are about. The fact that you look away from the camera 90% demonstrates your pretentious attitude more of grade school know-it-all than anything else. Maybe you could get a sponsorship from Ivory or Coast... tell them you'll stand on their soapbox during your rants. Congrats on the award, you've earned it!
Idiotofthedayaward 1 year ago
Nice reference to the Star Trek episode from the original series. Oh man did I just out myself as a massive geek? With this whole ocean currents thing a couple of points. First of all Murray didn't 'discover' ocean currents he mapped them. People knew about ocean currents for millennia, even before the Bible was written. Murray was also a product of his time. A Victorian era gentleman giving credit to God/Bible is hardly surprising. It's a poor choice and proves nothing
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead I totally agree with you, it was not even an answer to the Strawman challenge VenomfangX created and IrRationalRoundtable Defended, never mind to the actual Challenge that Thunderf00t issued. I think Christians sometimes think the rest of us a retards they can get any old Bovine manure past, that reading a script in a convincing manner will somehow cut the mustard, Sorry to burst your deluded bubble folks, it won't wash. We are entitled to apologies and retractions.
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
@TheTomtompiper I was just remarking on the example given by VFX (which isn't originally his BTW. I've heard it before). All the other remarks and observations that RR made in this video I generally agree with and I thought his comparison with the ST episode was apt. These two characters have just made this shit personal
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Yeah I think it is personal now, I think TF probably regrets not going for the jugular the first time, if the shoe had of been on the other foot Shaun would have put the boot well and truly in. But my problem with RR is that he knows full well that Shauns answer was a red herring and yet he defended it as "a perfectly good answer." this is just plain lying and it sickens me to see such partisanship from a person with a name that implies rational thought
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
@TheTomtompiper Well I'll give RR the benefit of the doubt on this one. Which is the reason I made the comment. He may have been unaware of that angle regarding Murray. What he says about it now is more important. However, I may be unaware that someone else, either in video or comment, may have already brought it up. With all that goes on with the interaction of someone who makes videos on YT sometimes you can't keep up with everything that's going on.
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Yes we should be charitable and give him another chance, it is the Secular thing to do.
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Now that TheLivingDinosaur thas shown that Shaun doctored his sources and that there is no proof that the event he described ever took place, where does this leave RR now? Do you think he will ever take the chance we have given him to make his position clear, or will he live with the lie?
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
You brought the disappointment on yourself thinking you could trust someone that exploits sick children for money.
NoeLPZC 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
It seems this generation has lost the ability to simply say "I believe you are wrong, and this is why I believe it." For some reason people are not satisfied with coming to a mutual understanding - they HAVE to win the argument.
While my personal beliefs are such that I'd label myself an atheist, I take pride in actually listening to the opinions of others. I am, however, disappointed in Shawn for banning me from his channel for what I believe was a difference in opinion.
SuperHuntard 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
I'm very torn on this video. For the first 5 minutes, your measured and calculated retelling of your interactions with Shawn speak volumes about your own level of comfort with those interactions. To be the unbiased commentator you attempt to be on this issue, I'd recommend not having interactions with either of these jack-holes.
However, I find your analogy to the Star Trek episode - specifically Kirk's quote - to be spot on. I believe it is too late for these two.
SuperHuntard 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
Yes, you're probably right - but I think that's possibly more to do with "not having run into them yet", or "their not being a 'significant' percentage in the YouTube population" than a case of "not being there"...
In "real life" I know far more 'moderates' than I do either 'extreme' in terms of "personality" ;-)
From a UK perspective, the YT 'norm' from the US seems just as 'polarised' - hence the likes of yourself & AA being so refreshing with focus on "discourse" not "win"
BrianJ1962 1 year ago
Societies psychic sickness is a direct result from the inability to lift their brother up, and consider them of worth. The religious extremist seem to be the worst of offenders but certainly " anyone " is capable of hatred and violence from severe suppression. And in this day and age.. surpassing the limits of days gone by.. a culmination of emptiness and restlessness is felt throughout the world.
jungian9111 1 year ago
Wonderful comparative analysis... losing sight of regarding another with value also happens to be the precise point that pathology begins..
jungian9111 1 year ago
@97Wildfire
nice quote...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
Someone should ask VenomFangX "Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek?"
kris01987 11 months ago
Yes, I like it.
Thunderfoot and Venomfangx are both at that stage in their youtube 'careers' where they are probably doing far more harm than good to their own respective viewpoints.
I remember that Star Trek video - back in the early days when they had a few good script writers and it was still science fiction, not a space soap opera. Happy days.
SAHBfan 1 year ago
@SAHBfan
you mean before 'The Next Generation..." every time I think of that show I die a little inside...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
thank you for posting this,
Well said
OrionSyndicate910 1 year ago
@OrionSyndicate910
thank you.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Greeting fellow Star Trek fan!
An interesting comparison, but I don't really think that it is quite as extreme as the two aliens in that episode.
ukchristian28 1 year ago
@ukchristian28
Beal and Loki were extreme I grant you that... but then most bigots of all kinds do not project that level of obvious hate...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Well there is one way to look at this. Diametrically opposed positions that destroy themselves may not be the most desirable outcome for either involved party, but it makes for great Star Trek episodes and it makes for great entertainment here on YT. After all, we are all here commenting on THEM, aren't we? I favor Thunderf00t overall, but I agree that both of them are very similar in their differences and are taking these arguments far too personally. "Spite" is what is evil, not disagreement.
BlueHelix712 1 year ago
@BlueHelix712
I agree with both of them on various points... I agree with Thunderf00t about the benefits of science, and with VFX on the benefits of faith. However unlike both of them I see no conflict between the two.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Comment removed
BlueHelix712 1 year ago
*hallelujha
fedea82 1 year ago
Finally, I don´t hink TF hates Shawn, he stood up for him in his "darkest youtube hour"....but Shawn does indeed hate or at the very least despise TF (mouth of Satan according to him) .
They are not "two sides of the same coin"....one has intellectual honesty, the other one not. You´re very intelligent, you will figure this out sooner or later. Peace.
fedea82 1 year ago
@fedea82 While I don't think either hate each other, what they do is nothing new when it comes to human fallibility. But that's not the issue here. Now, you consider name calling such as "mouthpiece of satan" (that's "'pathetic mouth piece of satan") to be signs of hate, than thunderf00t's own name calling, by your own standards is a sign of hate. VFX is using PMS, and TF's using PCS. Whatever TF00t did in the past, it doesn't seem to reflect on his actions today.
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos Posterboy for creationist stupidity....that´s despise, not hate. Pathetic mouth of Satan....well, let´s just say that does seem hateful...Shawn won´t admit that sentiment, being christian and all.The videos of TF are a consequence of VFX´s new videos, exactly like the old videos....and TF´s actions don´t resemble "stealing sick kids charity money", "filling false dmca´s" "falsely accusing someone of pedophilia". AGAIN, they are not two sides of the same coin. That´s the issue.
fedea82 1 year ago
@fedea82 First, remember that I said that I don't believe either hold any true hate for each other. That said, is despise really so much better? Look at both definitions (hate and despise) side by side (I'm using Merriam-Webster in this case). I believe that it's more an willingness to put each other down out of mutual disrespect. Hate is hardly the only reason to apply labels. Also, the videos here are nothing like his old videos, even in their flaws. There's nothing close ....(continued)
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos (continued)... to "filing false DMCA's" or "falsely acccusing someone of pedophilia" in VFX's recent vids. And the past actions of either of them, for better or worse are irrelevant in this case, unless there's some consistent action from the past that is present now, of which i do see in both, but nothing to the degree in which you've mentioned. Whatever anyone thinks of the "two sides of the same coin" comment, either did before isn't the issue, it's what they've done this time.
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos And why should I care what YOU think about "what´s the issue"? I made the first comment, and the issue of my comment IS what I state it is. And no, despise is what I feel for religious bull, and it´s not hate!
Let me guess, you´re a christian, god forgave Shawn, and that´s it? Now he´s equally credible to TF? Fuck off.
fedea82 1 year ago
@gellymatos And THIS TIME, TF made a challenge to Shawn (the challenge being kind of lame), in which he replied with BULLSHIT examples that could fit any book, not with examples of actual advanced science inspired by the bible. So don´t give me crap!
TF has always, you hear, always been this way, he stretches some arguments to lame extents. Always.
But Shawn is much worse, he is full of shit now too, and regarding his behaviour he STILL has not done bad things, alleluyha!
fedea82 1 year ago
@fedea82 You assume to much. First, you are right, I am a christian. But I don't care for VFX. Actually, I prefer TF, he's still contributed much more postively than VFX ever has. I never intended to say anything about God forgiving VFX. And even if I did, and assuming that were even true, it would still have no relevance to who has made the better case in VFX and TF's lastest bout of vids and counter vids. You get pissy at me, assume way to much of my own opinion, and tell me ...(continued)
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos (continued)... to fuck off? Laughable really. As for "what's the issue", I addressed your issue. And as I said, whatever TF or VFX have done in the past is irrelevant to whoever has the better argument in this specific case. Simple as that. And as for your hate, oh sorry, "despising" of religion, watch out. You already assumed to much about me due to "despising". Honestly, I don't have time or enough space in posts to fully explain TF's issues. I (continued)...
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos ....(continued) think rationalroundtable's vids explain the current problems well enough. And I'm equally sick at both of them at this point.
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos Well whatever, you are the one bothering me, telling me what the issue is, etc., when all I did was to post a comment to RRT. I want to talk to him? Get it?
Now: it´s not my intention to argue with you, and if you don´t see MY ISSUE, MY INTENTION, THE MEANING OF MY COMMENT, or if you don´t agree with it, fine, but leave me the fuck alone!!!
Or in little crispy flowery beautiful non-offensive, apt for all ages language: please restrain from replying at me, thank you very much.
fedea82 1 year ago
@fedea82 Bothering u? U had no problem with me when i made my first comment to you, you responded civily, not showing any annoyance. Not your intention to argue with me? Why respond to my post with your own counter point? Don't whine about me bothering you after not only responding to me in the first place, but getting "annoyed" after jumping to conclusions about me when I didn't agree with you, telling me to fuck off, and requiring me to correct you in your blatantly hasty assumptions. Get it?
gellymatos 1 year ago
@gellymatos
I responded one time, you didn´t get me, I got pissed, you continued replying, and that´s it. Bye.
fedea82 1 year ago
@gellymatos my thoughts as well..all though I don't know neither that well..VFX seems condescending in his approach, lacks the needed respect. I did like his " sorry " video however..but if the beast comes back into the house after its been swept clean.. then legions of psychic repression is imminent.
Hope all is well :-)
jungian9111 1 year ago
RRT: Shawn´s arguments are bullshit....yes, the bible or ANY BOOK may inspire scientific hypothesis, but Shawn´s examples are prepostorous and the dicoveries he mentions could be inspired by ANY book, because they are lame dicoveries. Come on, I mean...faster ocean routes, washing your hands....you really buy that without the bible those insights were not going to appear?
fedea82 1 year ago
@fedea82
I never said that these ideas would not come about without the Bible, I do not suggest that the Bible is a source for scientific information. That being said I also do not think that religion is in conflict with science... unless you happen to be a YEC.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable You did suggest to TF to reply to Shawn, tough. It gives the impression that you accept his answer as valid, sorry if I misinterpreted you.
I´m not a yec, it´s my opinion tough that to be religious you must have faith in things you can´t get solid evidence of. And that conflicts with science, yes. Also with logic.
Any religion is a lie until proven right. In any other domain of knowledge evidence is required.
fedea82 1 year ago
@fedea82
“…It gives the impression that you accept his answer as valid…”
It is valid in that it is a direct answer to TF’s challenge.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@Part 2
“to be religious you must have faith in things you can´t get solid evidence of. And that conflicts with science, yes. Also with logic.”
Does faith mean believing things you cannot prove? Yes. Does this directly conflict with science? Only if someone alters scientific findings to match their faith. Does it conflict with logic? No, unless one rejects objective evidence based on faith.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@Part 3
“Any religion is a lie until proven right. In any other domain of knowledge evidence is required.”
This is just dogmatic thinking, unless for the sake of consistency you think that anything anyone ever says is a lie unless proven right? This would seem absurd to me. It would appear that you simply presuppose that religion is wrong, but I doubt that you presuppose that everything is a lie without evidence…
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Why do you lie about Shaun answering TF's challenge when he patently did not? TF asked Shaun to use his Bible to come up with a new Scientific breakthrough , inspire by his Gos words. This was not done and yet you claim it was? Your name would seem to be misleading, I suggest you add "Ir" to the front of your name to make it accurate.
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
@TheTomtompiper
I did not lie... TF challenged Shawn specifically to name any scientific discovery that had it's origins in the Bible, Shawn responded that Matthew Maury discovered oceanic currants after being inspired by Psalm 8... it would now be up to TF to debunk that claim, or admit that Shawn was right... instead he simply ignored it.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable Here is a Transcript of Thunderf00t's Challenge to VenomfangX when he boasted about having access to special knowledge.
"All you have to do is come up with some great Nobel Prize winning discovery between you and your God, and source it to the Bible."
Please tell me how Shaun had anything to do with Matthew Maury mapping the Ocean currents (He did not discover them, another lie.) and how could Matthew Maury win a Nobel prize, he died before they existed? Your Rep is gone.
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago 2
@RationalRoundtable Furthermore Thunderf00t specifically stated in his challenge the the Great Nobel winning Discovery must be currently unknown to Science, so Shaun Strawmanned the challenge, and now you lie about it to further your own ends, an action that is as Irrational as it is Unchristian. Your reputation for fairness lies in tatters, you have been exposed for a partisan and duplicitous apologist dressed in the clothes of a thinking man.
TheTomtompiper 1 year ago
perhaps VenomFangX and Thunderf00t should have a digital debate through webcam and post the ending result with a median official who is biased on both sides. there could be three topics and it could last thirty minutes or longer. yay or nay?
Requiemxtoxinnocence 1 year ago
@Requiemxtoxinnocence not biased my bad
Requiemxtoxinnocence 1 year ago
I haven't really followed the VFX and TF debate but I have to say this video was compulsive viewing. I actually found it hard to believe it had lasted 12 mins so drawn in was I.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
Thank you, I really appreciate that.
What the heck is with you British atheists anyway? You guys are eather truly great like you and DLandonCole, or total jerks like Thunderf00t or DPRJones... I just don't get it...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
ROFL (regards your comment on British atheists to noelplum99) ;-)
The same could be said of British theists - some can be complete dunce-caps; some can be really nice guys (and gals) - just the same as US theists & atheists ;-)
I think the real "truth" on that, is simply that some people can be utter 'tools' - regardless of their beliefs ;-)
(yeah, I know - obvious statement is obvious - rofl) ;-)
BrianJ1962 1 year ago
@BrianJ1962
fair enough but my friends across the pond just seem a bit more extreme... they are ether VERY good or VERY bad... there are lots of American YouTubers who are somewhere in between...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable BTW - i've checked out some of your previous vids where you criticize Tf00t, and i'm not speaking now to challenge any of that. i admit to being a subscriber to his channel, but you won't hear me say he's a saint, or the YT equivalent of Yoda. But it does feel like your previous dislike of him is clouding your judgement in the whole Tf00t vs VFX debacle. Sorry for the numerous comments.
starspawn77 1 year ago
@starspawn77
I fully admit I have been quite harsh with TF in the past, however that being said if VFX were posting videos like his old stuff (before the DMCA crap) I would have been just as harsh with him.
Don't get me wrong... I like some of TF's work (the real science stuff, not his religious commentary) and he has a great voice, and a great ability to produce videos, but what he has been doing lately is frankly a waste of talent.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@noelplum99 It's much, much better viewing than the videos by VFX and TF.
DLandonCole 1 year ago
@RationalRoudtable
well thanks for that series, by the way. It safes me time, since I don't have to watch the other two videos.
AppliedMathematician 1 year ago
@AppliedMathematician
Thank you for the kind words... I will continue to post my comments if they continue their nonsense, but I was really let down this time around...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable So... a couple of things. First of all, another nice video. Secondly, i'm not sure why you are so surprised by Shawn's inability to mature. He's proved that to YT time and again. Frankly, i'd be shocked if he did. Third, why the disgust for Tf00t and DPR? Weren't these the guys who agreed to not sue Shawn back to the stone age when they had every right to, instead (along with several other YT'ers who Shawn locked horns with) extended hands of friendship to Shawn and (cont)
starspawn77 1 year ago
@starspawn77
thank you for the kind words, as far as the TF and DPR stuff involving VFX over a year ago, that has no bearing on their currant behavior. I do think that they are motivated by hate however, not the way you might be thinking, it is the same kind of hate that breeds all forms of bigotry.
Sure some of TF's comments could be chalked up to arrogance, but things like calling him PCS, even insulting his friend for no apparent reason etc, is not arrogance, it is hate.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable Hey there. Glad you understand that i'm not trying to troll - i really do like what i see in your vids, and you seem like a cool guy. But i have to disagree with you about the hate thing. And no disrespect intended, but you strike me as being perpetually in the corner of the christian - not saying that's true, but it's hard to shake that impression when you land so solidly on busting TF for even little things, and ignoring or being more forgiving of VFX's infractions (cont)
starspawn77 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable (continued) ... which are far worse. This series began as a way to critique TF & VFX's exchanges, so far i've only seen TF call VFX and his friend stupid (or the like) while VFX insists TF is a puppet of Satan and that TF is encouraging us all to commit suicide - seriously, which of these two things is worse? Anyway, i suppose this back and forth on the comment page is not the best way to debate you, but i appreciate the dialogue. Consider yourself subbed.
starspawn77 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable (continued) ... his family, working with Shawn's father to come to a peaceful resolution to the cluster**** of lies and dirty tactics that VFX admitted to in a Skype conversation between Tf00t, Dpr, Shawn, Shawn's dad, and others...? Did i imagine all of that? Again, i think there's a larger picture that you are not aware of. i mean, if you dislike/disagree with Tf00t & Dpr, fine... but when many other YT'ers wanted to go to town on Shawn with a tire iron... (cont)
starspawn77 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable (continued) ... Tf00t & Dpr stood up and defended him, insisting that Shawn's family be left out of the hole Shawn himself had dug, and that Shawn be given the chance to improve himself (a chance that he appears to have ignored or else weaseled his way out of). Have you missed all of this? Or is there something that i have missed? Honestly, i don't mean to go on and on, nor do i want to seem belligerent towards you - i just don't understand your position...
starspawn77 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable "I see 2 people who just hate each other..." Seriously? i see one filled with hate, and another filled with... well, maybe arrogance (at worst). You can point out the argumentative flaws of the latter if you like - i won't challenge that. But to say Tf00t is full of hate for Shawn... after going to bat for him when he was at his lowest moment, and Shawn himself admitted to and was grateful for (or so he claimed) the generosity of Tf00t and Dpr... really?
starspawn77 1 year ago
Great message to both of them. :-)
wimsweden 1 year ago
@wimsweden
Thanks... the sad thing is that I do not think that they are able or willing to change.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I too had high hopes from the opening salvos. But yes - "Hammer meet Nail"...
I also endorse this message - in addition to the hate issue, there is far too much that happens on YouTube (now dubbed YouTumor on my channel) that is "for the win" instead of "for the discourse"...
Any 'argument' that seeks such "win" through undermining the 'person' rather than the 'content' is, in my opinion, an automatic "fail" (politics included) on all counts.
As always, Michael - an excellent vid.
BrianJ1962 1 year ago
@BrianJ1962
"for the win" instead of "for the discourse"
Far too often this is indeed the case.
Any 'argument' that seeks such "win" through undermining the 'person' rather than the 'content' is, in my opinion, an automatic "fail" (politics included) on all counts.
agreed
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I had a little hope that VFX matured since his comeback, but unfortunately it seems that people don’t change. You would be awesome at a job that involved diplomatic negotiations between rival groups or countries.
tex959 1 year ago
@tex959
Thank you, but Jean-Luc Picard I am not...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@discjockeyfuture
Thank you. I will try to remain as objective as possible when commenting on things such as this.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Unfortunately, theres a certain titallation to watching, from the sidelines, people argue-the more hate the better.Kind of like the gladiator fights in ancheint Rome. Yet, in the grande sceme of things-outside of our own desire for entertainment, the hate is wrong and shouldnt be encouraged.
ScrapGoldBass 1 year ago
@ScrapGoldBass
Don't get me wrong... I love a good fight as much as the next guy... even one that has people getting pissed off at each other, but the VFX/TF thing is just getting so childish that it is becoming just silly.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Really you think they hate each other? They both just have either mostly bad arguments or non-arguments and are overzealous in defending their respective bad positions.
Ormaaj 1 year ago
@Ormaaj
I think it goes a bit deeper than just really bad arguments... I really do think that these two genuinely hate each other.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I have to agree, I'm sure there was a great discussion somewhere in all of this. It seems to have been lost in name calling though. I would rather see them steam over these more petty things before they go back to a serious discussion. Really VenomFangX while not cursing as some people on that side care so deeply about. Calling Thunderf00t the MPS, is just not excusable, because it has such malicious intent.
mentalkitty789 1 year ago
@mentalkitty789
agreed... I think that these two are smart enough to have a good discussion... even a passionate one... but they are so consumed by their dislike of each other that they forget to attack the issue, they just attack each other.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable When ever I talk to someone who is very strongly against or for religion there is only one thing I care about. Getting them to accept their belief COULD be wrong.
Yes they do forget to attack the real issue more often than not. I've had a chat with VFX once, and he would avoid the point of most things I said. Although with VFX he does seem more interested in the person attacks... That is just what I see though. I could be wrong. Still a lovely video with a great point.
mentalkitty789 1 year ago
@mentalkitty789
Thank you
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I bet you the two that disliked this are VFX and TF00t. :3
Audiofalcon7 1 year ago
@Audiofalcon7
lol... I would not be surprised one bit!
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
noelplum did the best reply in my opinion , TF's response was weak
sausage4mash 1 year ago
@sausage4mash
Noelplum99 and DlandonCole are soooooooo much better examples of good British atheists then Thunderf00t.... Why can't they have the 100k subs?
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I think that you are more of a liberal than you think you are ;)
BespokeGroupUK 1 year ago
@BespokeGroupUK
Lol.... not all conservatives are pro-hate...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
beast
alexporterfield 1 year ago
@alexporterfield
beast?
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable take every positive thing you could use to describe this video, and you've got "beast" lol in other words, this was right on the money
alexporterfield 1 year ago
I was fine with TF when he did his point-for-point debunking of VFX and others attempts at playing scientist. Those videos (and similar videos made by others) were informative and effective while still being amusing. Unfortunately, he has been sucked into the mess that is VFXs world and is being beaten by experience...
1n354a 1 year ago
@1n354a
I did not follow VenomFangX before he ever confronted Thunderf00t, so I cannot comment as to who sucked who into this stupidity. In the end it does not matter who threw the first low blow... but one them needs to be willing to stop for this to get any better.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable No it doesn't matter, but consider it a solution. If TF returned to making videos debunking bogus scientific claims that VFX (and others) make and leave his opinions about world religions out of it then he can raise himself out of the muck.
Unfortunately, I think your point was well made that these two only have the fight left...I don't see either changing their tune anytime soon. Oh well ...
1n354a 1 year ago
@1n354a
On that, we agree...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Great Video. I thoughtr after Shawn accepted your critique of your video, it would have created a less inflammatory discourse. I was wrong of course. Michael please do a video criticising thunderf00t's video as you are the one at the moment who seems to e doing it honestly and without adhomens. Hopefully he will respond. Personally I want you to get ionto a debate with someone as it would be beter than this.
bossman103 1 year ago
@bossman103
Thank you Gary, I do not think that Thunderf00t has any interest in taking me on... he obviously want to only engage people that he feels he can beet without thinking. I did send a PM to Thunderf00t, but he has not responded at all.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Right when I heard Star Trek, I knew which episode you would describe.
SamHagagaga 1 year ago
@SamHagagaga
It seems so obvious, I can't believe I did not see it before.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable I hadn't really thought to connect this with Star Trek, so I wouldn't have seen it had you not made the connection. Live long and prosper.
I hope they eventually come to grok the error of their ways.
SamHagagaga 1 year ago
Though I am a Christian, I do agree with what you said. Shawn and Tf00t need to get off of each other's throats. Shawn only has himself to blame for the debacle he made before he left YouTube, and his verbal fencing with Tf00t is not helping his reputation. Tf00t is just full of himself. Name-calling is not going to help matters. There comes a point where we have to shake the proverbial dust off of our feet and leave. Shawn must learn that that point has come, and to let go.
DecKrash 1 year ago
@DecKrash
agreed...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
That was overly dramatic. As you note, I'm an atheist defending thunderf00t - I do not believe thunderf00t hates Venom. If he did, he had a chance to really screw him when Venom false DMCAed a bunch of people and all they asked for was a public apology. They could have sent him to prison. I do think thuderboy has lost his thunder. Venom made his channel and he's trying to half-hartedly repeat his past success.
Now Skierkowa and others are out classing him:
youtube.com/watch?v=1ZNW-gsIsng
zarkoff45 1 year ago
@zarkoff45
I am encouraged by the 'next generation' of YouTubers... Skierkowa, AbusiveAntitheist, Fitcheyfulthinking, Thunderbolt94 all many times better than both VFX and TF in my opinion... I look forward to the day that these guys are the top dogs rather than the crap we tend to see now.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Yea , I agree, venomfangx and thunderfoot seem to be obsessing over each other. Its just drama, its not even debating.
StopFear 1 year ago
@StopFear
agreed... which makes no sense... these guys are smart enough to have a real debate.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Mr.Crawford, can you please tell me what software can provide me with basic simple features to edit videos? I am trying to make some iphone apps reviews, but I cant cut and stich them without the software. Any advice is appreciated.
StopFear 1 year ago
@StopFear
at the low end of the price scale you could get Adobe Premiere Elements, it is the stripped down version of Premiere Pro which is the editor that I use. I had Elements before I got pro, it is good for editing, but it does not have all the bells and whistles. Which you do not need right now.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
This pretty much sums it up... I would like them to be more like the enemies in the episode "Balance of Terror". At least there these mortal enemies retain a certain amount of respect for each other, even in face of imminate destruction. I don't mean for any side to be "destroyed", that was not my point, yet it would be a commendable thing to respect - at least as far as it's possible, the discourse would certainly benefit from that - each other, so that a reasonable discourse remains possible.
ProjectPaladin 1 year ago
@ProjectPaladin
"You and I, are of a kind... in a different reality I could have called you friend"
Kirk and the Romulan commander did indeed have the highest respect for each other...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
What is a poco bean?
FlowCell 1 year ago
@FlowCell
My business name... a combination of a couple of pet names my wife and I had for each other 20 years ago.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
I was just wondering because their is such a thing as a "poco bean" beanbag chair. I didn't know if they were related.
FlowCell 1 year ago
@FlowCell
no relation, although when I decided to use the name I did a search and found that chair... I had to laugh... I may have to buy one.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
...frankly, this isone of the reasons why I'm subbed to you and not to TF or VFX. Keep up the hreat work!
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go rewatch some good ol' Star Trek episodes.
TheCuriousWays 1 year ago
@TheCuriousWays
lol! thank you... I am going to have to do a Star Trek video soon...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Great diagnosis of the situation. I wholeheartedly agree. Neither of them are champions of any sort. Frankly I think that with TF's behaviour toward Dawah, his remarks to Shawn and his sometimes shocking ignorance of Philosophy that his days on YT are coming to a close.
MichaelPayton67 1 year ago 4
@MichaelPayton67
"...his days on YT are coming to a close."
I wish I could agree, but TF is just as popular as he has ever been, people love the childish attacks for some reason. I would not be surprised if VFX becomes as popular as he was in his heyday as well.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
This video is over 12 minutes but all these constant pauses between speaking, should've taken like half the time.
Stating your opinion on how both Thunderf00t and VenomfangX are responding to each other is neutral, but keeping score when you have stated multiple times that you're Christian is probably biased, whether or not it's intentional.
uxtalzon 1 year ago
@uxtalzon
on issues such as these it would be darn near imposable to be truly 'unbiased' but if I were going to give VFX the benefit of the doubt just because he is a fellow Christian don't you think I would have given him a higher score? I do not try to hide the fact that I am a Christian, but I am also a lover of science so I see things on both sides I agree with, but that is irrelevant, my 'score' is not based on agreement with the person, only on how effectively he argued for his side.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@Part2
as for the long pauses... this video was not scripted like all the videos I have done this year, during the pauses I was thinking of what I wanted to say next. Sorry if you found it annoying, but most of the time I try to flow at a bit faster pace.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
What I find far more amusing is that people expect more from thunderf00t, but always think that their opinion on any given situation counts. That, and the endless dramatisation of youtube "celebrity".
VFX dug his own hole when he started posting false DMCAs. Tf defended himself without demanding VFX pay the legal consequences for a clear case of perjury. For this, he is made out to have committed some great deception? I think that just shows there are bigger problems with public opinions
Digideus 1 year ago
@Digideus
none of my comments are about the past, except to say that there is a reason that VFX has earned a negative reputation. Also, I offer my opinion not because I think it 'counts' but only because my subscribers seem to enjoy it. My commentary on VFX and TF are my highest viewed, liked, and favorited videos.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable Interestingly, you assume most of my comments are about your videos. In actual fact they were written about some the comments being left on your videos, particularly the ones that paint Tf in a negative light which I believe to be unfair. VFX earned his reputation, Tf didn't.
OK, so the drama appeals to most people, but most people are happy to jump on bandwagons, which is why the debate between creationists and Atheists never moves forwards
Digideus 1 year ago
@Digideus
on the first part, sorry for the misunderstanding... on the second part, I agree.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Don't forget that VFX plagiarised the Biblical scientific facts he used.
watch?v=ClextKHMdBQ
GuineaPigDan 1 year ago
@GuineaPigDan
how?
this is youtube - not a scientific journal...
aveyowyns 1 year ago
@aveyowyns True this isn't a scientific journal, but he tried to pass these off as his own words and didn't give citations. And he gave citations for other quotes he used, so why not give citations for these ones also? If he's going to go around professing to be following the Bible and tell others they're acting immorally but not practice what he preaches himself, his dishonesty should be brought to light.
GuineaPigDan 1 year ago
@GuineaPigDan
Okay... I'll give you that, but at the same time, "you don't want thunderf00t to find out," doesn't really show that you care much about whether or not he succeeds in being moral.
aveyowyns 1 year ago
@aveyowyns How's that so?
GuineaPigDan 1 year ago
@GuineaPigDan
I have seen various videos from Christians using these same verses over and over... it is an old argument, but that does not mean that it is not a legitimate point to bring up. Granted it is not one that I would use, but it was at least relevant to the discussion.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Analogy Award Of The Day.
THEHARMONIKZ 1 year ago
@THEHARMONIKZ
Thank you...
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Well, given the messy state of affairs, it's a relief to see that someone still has his head screwed on!
Nah...this is the best video I've seen on this issue by a mile, and since you're one of the best YouTubers I know, I wouldn't have expected anything less.
KingsIndianCR 1 year ago
@KingsIndianCR
Thank you, truly you are too kind... I am thankful that some people appreciate my videos, but I would hardly list myself in any 'best of' list on YouTube.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I slightly disagree with what you say. I really don;t know what drives Sean but with Thunderf00t I doubt it's hate, seems to me it's a Tin God out of his depth.
It was all going so well for TF, subscribers, nice little channel based on charactor assassination not argument, lots of bushy tailed followers swallowing his religious sciencetism.
Then he got delusions, tried to be an intellectual, wasn't up to it & now he want's to recover face, but in every attempt loses more, he's desperate.
jaocheu 1 year ago
@jaocheu
In Thunderf00t's defense, he has done some good science videos, however when he attacks people is when his views go up, and his channel, like most, is not about a specific agenda, rather just what gives him the most views. I am as guilty of this as anyone else, people ask me why do I stick my nose into the VFX/TF fight, and the answer is simple, I get more views on those videos.
I do think that TF's attacks with VFX is more personal though, and I do think that hate is the motive.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
".....and his channel, like most, is not about a specific agenda, rather just what gives him the most views."
You know, even as someone who has myself been openly critical of Tf00t i have to take issue with you on that statement, because it just seems too much of a sweeping statement. Sure, there is some truth in what you say but he also makes a large number of videos that he will clearly realise in advance are of marginal interest to most people.
noelplum99 1 year ago
@noelplum99
I would agree with you in part, yes TF and others do videos on subjects they care about, and yes TF has likely done videos just out of love for the subject matter (his astronomy stuff comes to mind) but during the time that VFX was gone, TF went from user to user looking for a new 'PCS' to fight, be it 'howtheworldworks' or 'DawahFilms' or Neff, he was looking for someone he could attack, during the times that he did not do this, his views went down.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@Part2
I just wish he could find someone to fight without it getting so childish... in a very real way I wish he was more like you.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable
I agree with you in that he certainly does like a focus for his intellectual ire and i am quite sure that this, along with some other aspects of his output, has an eye to viewership concerns (though, as you say, let he who is without sin in this regard, cast the first virtual stone).
Personally i would have no problem with that if he stuck to the issues not the personalities.
noelplum99 1 year ago
I'm Landon Cole and I endorse this message.
DLandonCole 1 year ago 12
@DLandonCole
Thank you Landon, coming from you that means a lot to me. BTW, what does the 'D' in your user-name stand for?
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable David. My full name is David Landon Cole; I just prefer my middle name.
DLandonCole 1 year ago
I commented on shawn's video that he obviously didn't see your last review, since his video was just more adhom's and misrepresentations of tf00ts arguments. and now hearing that he actually was in contact with you, makes that video even more ridiculous. tf00t is only participating in this back and forth for the drama and the views, I don't have any expectations of him raising the standards. Vfx is also just looking for views and that's why he keeps playing the same game tf00t does
wonderpope 1 year ago
@wonderpope
Truly pathetic on both sides... I have no issue with people trying to get more views, but not at the expense of all intellectual honesty.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
I applaud your call for raising the level of discourse.
jokidder 1 year ago
@jokidder
Thank you... of course if they actually took my advise... I might have to find other things to talk about... but that is a problem I would not mind having to be honest.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
So, instead of "Third time's a charm", it's more like the third movie in a series. X-Men 3, Spider-Man 3, Return of the Jedi, Back to the Future, Part 3, Matrix: Revolutions, etc.
Wait, that last movie does NOT exist -- not does the second. There is only ONE Matrix movie. (lalala, I can't hear you!)
I'll give "The Search for Spock" a pass... IMO, it's the best of the odd numbered Treks and is, IMO, underrated.
Good analysis. I knew that was the episode you were going to mention.
firefly4f4 1 year ago
@firefly4f4 Good Sir and or Mam, I politely request that you remove Return of The Jedi from your otherwise flawless list of shitastic third movies. I would be more then happy to come to a compromise and allow the usage of Revenge of the Sith. But please, leave Return of The Jedi out of this.
With Love
This Guy.
TheWeedbullet 1 year ago
@TheWeedbullet
You misunderstand me. I only include RotJ as poor in comparison to the first two (and quite apart from the prequels). This is the same reason BttFP3 is included -- not terrible, just paling in comparison to the first two.
TSfS does happen to be better than the first movie in the Trek line, so it gets an exception for not being the worst of the three.
Perhaps Terminator 3 would have been a better example? :)
firefly4f4 1 year ago
@firefly4f4
I would say that Terminator would have been a better example, or even better... Alien, Aliens, Alien 3... ouch.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable You know, I've somehow never watched the Alien franchise, aside from the occasional clip. It may be because it's only recently I've developed an interest in horror, and these always seemed more horror than sci-fi. I'm aware of their reputation, but that's it.
I'll need to rectify that.
firefly4f4 1 year ago
@firefly4f4
Here is a breakdown...
Alien - a brilliant Sci-Fi/horror film full of suspense
Aliens - a brilliant Sci-Fi/action films full of excitement
Alien 3 - a craptastic cash cow full of excrement
Alien 4 - a slightly better than Alien 3 cash cow
I would highly recommend the first 2, and ignore the last 2
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
Dude, I just said like yesterday on one of Thunderf00t's videos that VFX and TF are two sides of the same coin! I don't see how this video can be offensive, except maybe by the fact that you didn't give a spoiler alert, I am currently watching through the original Star Trek Episodes.
I think we need to dethrone TF and VFX and make you and AAT the most popular channels in your respective groups.
LinkMEP 1 year ago
@LinkMEP
As much as I would love to assume the VFX mantle, well as the saying goes, "Flys go to s**t, not gold" I love Charles, and I think he would be a great atheist to lead that side, but he will never be that popular, he is too rational, reasonable, and willing to talk to theists. People love watching people tear each other down, call it 'Jerry Springer Syndrome' Sorry for the spoiler, considering that the show aired 40 years ago I did not consider that someone might not have seen it.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
@RationalRoundtable That’s what I'm saying, people should stop flying to $_!t and start flying to gold. There are like two "circuits" on the theist-atheist youtube debate. The aggressive one with Thunderf00t, Venom Fang X and others. The more peaceful one with You, Abusive Anti-Theist and others. Unfortunately the more aggressive one is more popular. I mentioned the spoiler to show that I think your video is so un-offensive that that is the most offensive thing I could find in it.
LinkMEP 1 year ago
@LinkMEP
Unfortunately it seems that people are much more attracted to over the top flame wars then to reasonable discussion. I am sure that if I posted emotional rant after rant on all the various issues I have talked about I would have double the subscribers I currently have, but I just can't bring myself to do that.
RationalRoundtable 1 year ago
This vid is yet another example of you living up to you're name.
pastafariandan 1 year ago