The Power of Oxy-Hydrogen Implosion

[sapoty]

The cylinder gets warmer. Both the explosion and the condensation are exothermic (give off heat). If it is repeated then soon the cylinder gets too warm to support condensation and then the explosion becomes more intense and the implosion ceases.

[westxtsew]

Just wondering does the cylinder get warmer or cooler?

[Me102288]

@westxtsew probabably both. burning hydrogen create a lot of heat, but it burns 9x faster then gasoline, so it really doesnt have much actual time to heat up the container. By the time it stops combusting it is trying to combine back with oxygen and thus water... Not sure why it gets cold much like co2 when it expands from a liquid to a gas, turning everything it toiuchs pretty cold,,

you cant destroy energy. and burning hydrogen = water = it must be h2 and oxygen.

unlimited energy.. :-)

[Me102288]

so your trying to reinvent the vacuum cleaner or what, meanwhile I'll be not paying for gasoline, and running my internal COMBUSTION engines on browns gas.... :-)

Serously, what is this leeding to?

[sapoty]

@Me102288 Have you heard of glowing objects that flash across the sky as if air is not in their way, and then stop and hover and maybe form a cloud around themselves in particular weather conditions, and can land and lift off without burning the ground, and have a source of lift without wings?

[Me102288]

@sapoty notta clue whatyour getting at.. hho or browns gas, hydroxy, hydrogen and oxygen from electrolysis is cutting steel, moving thespace shuttle around.. and yes... Running normal gasoline burning engines.

BMW Hydrogen 7 runs on a hydrogen from a tank on the car...

ps. hydrogen burning/exploding the byproduct is hydrogen which collects back with oxygen and produces water. this is burning all the oxygen creating a vacuum from it. :-\ lotta ppl have done this compression /vacuum test.

[sapoty]

@Me102288 I'm talking about using the oxyhydrogen explosion/implosion to reduce drag on a vehicle, create lift, and propulsion. To reduce drag the idea is to blast some of the air out of the way of the vehicle using laterally directed rocket engines in front of the vehicle. If done with the right timing and power the blast will be condensing as the nose of the vehicle reaches it. This will create a low pressure zone in front of the vehicle thus reducing drag.

[sapoty]

@sapoty A low pressure zone on the upper surface of the vehicle creates lift. A low pressure zone at the front of the vehicle creates forward thrust from the ambient pressure at the rear of the vehicle.

[Me102288]

@sapoty oh, sounds kinda cool. I've been running HHO in our cars engine. ps your generating oxyhydrogen how? best I've seen is 30 litre's a minute, might fit in a car, but ya definatly cant power it with the cars 12volt...

need 120 volt at 15 to 25 amps,

part the air with controlled explosions? thats going to take tons :-) of hydroxy.

anyway, I been into aircraft a long time, easiest way is to make it sharp on both ends so its coeffient of drag goes down to a f16's 0.006, cuts through

[sapoty]

@Me102288 120 v at 15 to 25 A ... sounds like an interesting experiment with a set of 10 lead acid batteries.

can you give me a url for that gas generator?

tons ... or maybe a lot less if it is just improving the air flow.

[ratedrjj321]

an alien video brought me here

[sapoty]

It was about 10 grams ie about half an ounce.

[Earthbound64]

do you know how much the weight of the thingy is because I want to know the STRENGTH or the energy that caused the explosion to move the thingy =) I really would apreciate it

[HybridWaterMan2]

Nice test and demonstration of the implosion characteristics of oxy hydrogen!

[oguretsagressive]

That is sooooo cumbersome explanation :) Your response to Ace011mm have fitted all of it in 2 sentences.

[sapoty]

@oguretsagressive The video is not intended as an explanation: it is intended as a clear demonstration with an audience that includes very skeptical people.

[Ace011mm]

I cant see very well but in my experiments,and my logic too,I think H2 first implode and then explode! No chance to different way! This principle kept secret of too big energy of H2. H2 go to "quantum vacuum" this we are call "implosion" and then release this energy...

[sapoty]

@Ace011mm No, the H2 +O2 explodes and releases a lot of heat. If the container can absorb the heat without the container exceeding 100 C then the H2O condenses implosively. The quantum vacuum is not relevent at this level of chemistry.

[Ace011mm]

@sapoty Every thing is about quantum vacuum or eter or orgone or... There is only one energy,just different ways to use. H2 is just one of links to use this energy! Condenses not implosion! You need pure H2 for implosion.or max 5% air in mix. This tell as scientists. But some way,when i fire reservoir with hho and make explosion,lid go out and manometer scale is move anticlockwise and after this scale stay on 1bar. If you right,how this scale can go in different direction after explosion?

[sapoty]

@Ace011mm You need pure H2 for implosion.or max 5% air in mix. No - H2 on its own does not do implode or explode. Those events happen when H2 combines with O.

when i fire reservoir with hho and make explosion,lid go out and manometer scale is move anticlockwise and after this scale stay on 1bar. Yes - explosion blows lid off, manometer cannot move that fast. Steam implosion lasts longer than explosion... time for manometer to show low pressure then go back to 1 bar after the air rushes in.

[ehnriko]

Could you do this test again with an identical cylinder on top and a floating piston on top made of some light material like styrofoam... It would confirm if there really is a contraction during implosion which is a bit hard to see with just a relief or blow up valve.

Anyway, Great presentation!.

[sapoty]

@ehnriko  I don't get you?

[GetMeThere1]

The second I read the title I realized what you were up to and a bolt of lightning zapped through my head and I thought: "That's pretty GODDAM CLEVER!"

I'm not a physicist, so I don't exactly know how to think about this, but seemingly, what you're doing is turning atmospheric pressure into work, simply by chemically changing the number of moles of gas in a container. VERY cool.

If you could "net off" (approx) the hydrl/burning, it seems like you could get the work "for free." AMAZING!

[almostnuclearwar]

this is a cool step by step explanation video....is made better by the flashy english accent, i want one of those, can you make a tutorial for that to?

[sapoty]

@almostnuclearwar But Australian's don't have accents: only people from other countries have accents! ;-)

[Mike2008and2008]

Very cool.

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Excellent demonstration. Curious, did you try the test with the one way brass valve locked closed? And of so, what was the result? How about the result when mixing some air (mostly nitrogen) to the chamber?

[sapoty]

The brass valve was not secured to the tube strongly enough to with stand the initial explosion. But I am sure that if the initial explosion is contained then implosion will follow. I have seen this in other experiments.

The more other gases... the less the implosion.

[fuckingnewguy]

Man that was awesome. I tried for a month to create that same experiment. 5 stars. bravo. You are the man.

[HHOhybridBuilder]

I don't understand.You mean there was the explosion then followed by implosion?

[amcnea]

This is what I think happened.

1) The gas is composed of Hydrogen and Oxygen. I assume H2 and O2, but it would be stronger if he was using H1 and O1.

2) He ignites the mixture causing energy to be released (explosion).

3) The explosion cause the H2 and O2 to form H20 or 4H + 2O = 2 H20 (water)

4) Water is a liquid and much denser then the gas which was previously there.

5) This causes the piston to get sucked up, as there is empty space which needs to be filled (Implosion).

[HHOhybridBuilder]

Therefore we can conclude that using HHO, we can achieve 2 power strokes. The explosion stroke, the dowmward piston motion and the implosion stroke the upward piston motion. wow therefore 1 INTAKE STROKE, 2 COMPRESSION STROKE, 3 DOWNWARD POWER EXPLOSION STROKE AND 4 WILL BE THE UPWARD IMPLOSION EXHAUST STROKE.What do you think (YouTubers) does it makes sense?

[amcnea]

Maybe, but I don't think so. The explosion stroke and implosion stroke will probably want to cancel each other out.

The more you compress the gas the better the explosion stroke will be, but the worse the implosion stroke will be.

Also the timespan between the explosion and implosion may not be enough for a full stoke. This would cause major problems.

I would say either use the explosion stroke or the implosion stroke but not both.

Explosion w/ compression

Implosion w/ decompression

[sapoty]

That is almost correct. The explosion created water and lots of heat... enough to boil the water instantly. Most of the white hot water vapor escaped through the brass valve at the top. The remainder quickly cooled by contact with the aluminium piston and the brass valve and condensed. That left very little vapor in the tube so the piston got pushed up from below by the outside air pressure coming in a hole in the bottom of the tube.

[almostnuclearwar]

but aren't Hydrogen and Oxygen both diatomic molecules? how dat work?

[insAneTunA]

@HHOhybridBuilder

Yes indeed. It seems to be that way.

[sapoty]

Yes I did it with a clear hose too a couple of months ago. That is a very easy way to do it. I guess the condensation happens more rapidly when the water becomes turbulent since the steam is exposed to a greater surface area of water.

[InventorGadget]

i like your test, i did it with a clear hose and colored water, after flash the water was sucked up,, it works :)

[BrettFromLA]

Wow, I had to wait 5 minutes for that little putt-putt explosion. You shoulda led with that, THEN gone into the explanation. Thanks for showing the experiment tho.

[dwarfer777]

wow, attach it to ya wheels!

[sapoty]

I don't understand how you derive the number 4. The heat sinking may have to be timed as well to maximise power conversion.

[hydroxmobile]

please check out hydrox mobile in youtube

[larryhoganandthesuga]

Connect the piston to the crank with a double ratchet system... one ratchet applies power to the crank during the explosion, the other ratchet, on the opposite side of the crank applies power to the crank during the implosion.

Valve and ignition timing is derived from ratchet position... you could theoretically have four independant cylinders running at different speeds all supplying power to the crank. LOL

[hydroxmobile]

please check out hydrox mobile

[ZionistWorldOrder]

ozzies keep impressing! RIP Viktor Schauberger..

[crob227]

instead of a spring why put a shaft on the end

where the spring is and have a spring spring at the shaft, after the shaft is pulled by the vacumn the spring would pull the piston back down....with that being said, thats a perfect thing for your cell they run more effiecent in a vacumn, if you could limit the drag(piston)you might have a operating engine from your expirment.

[sapoty]

There is no spring in the apparatus except the spring in the non-return valve at the top of the tube.

[crob227]

i meant string.

[sapoty]

What cell are you talking about?

[wwei0015]

From Physics point of view, the energy from the Oxy-Hydrogen explosion should be less than the energy used to separate them from water. So during the cycle of separating H2O to H2 and O, and burn them to return to H2O, there will be a net energy loss. You can not create extra energy. Am I missing something here?

[sapoty]

Electrolytic separation of water is typically only 60 to 65% efficient. The purpose of my experiment is to demonstrate the concept of reducing drag or creating lift, not creating energy. Energy is used to expel air, replace it with water vapour, and condense the vapour to create a low pressure/density zone.

[MaxxxLogan]

How many investors have you got?? And how much are you trying to raise?? Just curious??

[sapoty]

At present there are just two investors in the patent. I don't plan to look for finance until I can demonstrate the excuser effect in a way that shows it is useful for reducing drag or creating lift.

[MaxxxLogan]

Latent heat? Implosion? Ok!

This is nothing but a kinetic energy experiment. The same phenomena exists in high pressure pneumatics, it's called 'Pressure Wave Attenuation'. It occurs when you relieve a high pressure pneumatic cylinder to the atmosphere, and then suddenly you shut it off. The piston moves sharply in the direction of the leak created irrelevant of the pressure/vacuum on the other side. And you end up breaking some expensive components.

[sapoty]

I may be misunderstanding it but I don't think that is what happened. I think what you are describing would be for a case where the piston had momentum resulting from the pressure relief. In my experiment the piston had no momentum from the explosion because it was constrained from moving downwards.

[PocketKings87]

The piston might not have momentum, but the exploding air being forced through the pressure release valve has a lot of momentum. It escapes very fast and it doesn't stop moving when you reach atmospheric. The pressure release valve only begins to close when you reach atmospheric and the air only begins to slow down at that same time. So when the PRV actually closes the escaping air has pulled the piston up. Try the experiment with better PRVs to see if theres a difference.

[sapoty]

Good point, thanks. So is it a general rule that at the core of an explosion there is a pressure drop below atmospheric after the initial pressure wave? In otherwords, does the outward momentum create a dip in pressure at the core? What do you think about the shot at the end of the clip with the plate lifting up? There the bulk of the momentum is transverse, not perpendicular to the plate. Separating the condensation from the momentum is a key issue.

[PocketKings87]

I did a few calculation on the amount of force necessary to lift the piston the amount of distance in that time and I figured out that there doesnt need to be much force. i assumed a square inch area of 2in. and at 10g it needs only 1.25N and at 50g it needs only 6.25N of force. And atmospheric pressure on 2 square inches exerts 130N. So only 5% drop in pressure can accelerate 50 grams that fast. as for the plate. I dont know exactly what your doing to it. where is the low pressure coming from?

[sapoty]

Typical aircraft have a pressure loading on their wing up to about 1% of atmospheric pressure. I think military aircraft can go up to about 5%. My main interest is in the potential application to flight, but reduction of frontal drag in any form of transportation is interesting. I consider that a proportion of the low pressure results from condensation of the water vapor.

[SirDave144]

Let me see if I understand something. He has a one way valve on top, after a mixture of hot gasses expands (in an explosion), and some escapes through this one-way valve, as the hot gasses cool the remaining gasses take up less space?

What a concept! If I put steam in an enclosed space and it cools off it generates an implosion? Sounds like someone ignored a few basics.

[sapoty]

The explosion creates hot water vapour which then cools and condenses implosively on the heat sinking metal. I think the presence of other (non-condensing) gases besides water vapour is minimal after the explosion.

[ChrisPCrunchy]

Hi Sapoty.

Many people ignore Latent heat energy in their calcs (The energy taken to expand water into vapour without rise in temp)You have burst the bubble of many a free energy supporter pointing this out. Have you looked at or tried any of the Lawton / Meyers cells, they do boost gas production with less power input.Maybe of benifit in your experiments.

[sapoty]

Hi Chris, Thanks for your suggestion. I have been wondering about efficiency improvements for oxy-hydrogen generation. As I understand it the plate voltage for 100% efficiency is about 1.2 V, but I have to run it at 2 V to get a decent current (as you will know the gas production is always directly proportional to the current).

[sapoty]

I have heard that there is a lot of research being done on catalysts to facilitate the electrolysis. But really my interest is in what I can do with the oxy-hydrogen in drag reduction.

[jmurphy914]

Good Job. You are quite a sharp guy! From comments, I can see one thing people need to understand is that there is no free energy. The spark cannot be generated by the device without outside help. Perpetual motion so far is not something science allows at this point (although I did see a youtube vid of some device supposedly putting out more than it takes in.. supposedly).

[sapoty]

The next best thing to perpetual motion is methods of extracting renewable energy from the atmosphere and gravity. Checkout Robert Hunt's gravity plane at fuellessflight dot com. He beat me to the patent office on that one. But I dream of a future with gravity plane transport made fast with excuser technology.

[whitenight639]

ok stupid question: is the explosion more powerful or the after implosion caused by steam?

because most people fitting hydrogen boosters to there cars retard the timing closer to TDC but might it not be more efficient to advance it to near BDC ?? great video btw thanks for sharing

[sapoty]

Interesting question. I would put my money on the explosion being more energetic than the implosion. Because the explosion seems to happen over a shorter time interval it will also be more powerful. I consider that the energy advantage provided by a hydrogen booster is due to the improved efficiency of burning the hydrocarbon fuel.

[sapoty]

After all the electrical energy used to create the oxy-hydrogen (at about 50% efficiency) ultimately comes from the engine. So if the burning of the oxy-hydrogen is to be the main source of additional energy we are in a closed energy loop with diminishing returns. Also I would not expect the implosion to occur in the cylinders because the heat would not allow much condensation to occur. I would stick with the TDC philosophy.

[whitenight639]

cool thank you, I've been doing some maths (not my strong point) and i keep trying to prove myself wrong but looking at it my 2.0ltr car could theoretically run on 2.5ltrs of water and 1.5ltrs of hydroxy gas (per min at 5000rpm) because the water injected expands to over 1000 times its volume and the hydrogen has a massive heat output compared to petrol/ diesel. theres guys on here getting 1.76ltrs per min on 29 amps and a high pressure water pump would probably be about 40amps.

[sapoty]

Our calculations of vaporization of injected water only allow a few grams of water to be boiled by the heat released by combustion of a litre of oxy-hydrogen. I suspect you are significantly overestimating the heat output of the combustion. Note also that the electric energy generated by the motor producing the oxy-hydrogen must always be greater than the oxy-hydrogen combustion energy. This is because energy is lost in friction producing heat such as in the resistance of the electrolyte.

[whitenight639]

ive got my maths wrong it would be 10ltrs, however its only 2cc's of water per cylinder per revolution. I'd love to see some of your calculations. the beauty of steam is its exothermic so steam from the exhaust can be used in a heat exchanger to heat the presurized water for the injection and greatly increase efficiency, by burning h2 + o and using h2o the only losses are frictional, heat, and sound(very little light really).

[sapoty]

1 mole of water = 18.0153g. 1 mole of water product comes from 1 mole of hydrogen reactant (+0.5 mole oxygen reactant) so mols of water or hydrogen are used below interchangeably.

1: heat of reaction of oxyhydrogen: 286 kJ/mol = 15.9 kJ/g

2: find the heat of condensation/vaporisation of water: 40.65 kJ/mol = 2.26 kJ/g

3: determine the energy required to heat the water to BP.: 0.004184 kJ/g.K so to heat from 22 to 100 takes 0.368 kJ/g

[sapoty]

So each gram needs 2.26+0.368 = 2.63kJ to evaporate, 1g of produced water comes with the heat to evaporate 15.9/2.63 = 6.05 grams of water

ie you can add 5g of water to every 1g of oxy-hydrogen

Then the question is what is the volume at STP of 1 g of oxyhydrogen?

Using the basis 22.4 L/mol.

1 g of water makes 1 g of oxyhydrogen.

Water is 18.0153 g/mol and every mol of water makes 1.5 mol of oxy-hydrogen

So volume of oxy-hydrogen per gram = 22.4/(18.0153/1.5)= 1.86 L/g

[sapoty]

So its 1.86 L with 5 g of water to get maximum steam production?

i.e. 373ml of gas /g of water.

[whitenight639]

so your saying the heat produced from H2 +0 is 15.9Kj/g and the required heat to boil 1gram of H20 is 0.368Kj so that makes it very possible to boil injected water to run a ICE primarily on water, my calculation are like this: it takes 4.187joules to raise 1gram of water by 1 degree C, so 4.187j x 2g (ml) = 8.374 x 80(degrees) = 669.92j

[sapoty]

You have to add the heat of vapourisation of water.... which is quite substantial.

[SmartScarecrow]

Its been a week.  You still breathing?

[sapoty]

Ha Ha! Thanks for your concern. Actually, Smarts, I'm building a 20 A oxy-hydrogen generator so I can do experiments with a continuous flame rather than the few hundredths of a second stuff shown in this video. Also I am building an extra one in case anyone out there wants one...

[poliglide]

The 2nd experiment look more interesting as it's not in an enclosed environment and the practical applications seem easier to imagine. Can you explain the differences between experiments.. keep up the amazing work.

[sapoty]

The key difference with the 2nd experiment is that the oxyhydrogen explosion exhaust is directed parallel to the aluminium plate (heat sink). This minimises the initial downward thrust on the plate.

[sapoty]

Meanwhile the implosion is focussed on ("drawn" onto) the plate as a result of the condensation. The condensation begins to occur even while the exhaust steam is still white hot.

[sapoty]

The condensation implosion then creates a low pressure zone above the plate and the plate is thrust upwards by the ambient air pressure under the plate. In other words lift is created by the implosion. The explosion assists this by blowing the air away from the surface of the plate.

[poliglide]

OK, the shot of the system being on it's side was hard for me to see.. Is it likely to harness the power in the aliminum piston as well as the air comming out to the one way valve?

[sapoty]

The piston-valve apparatus was not used at all in the 2nd experiment. A plastic combustion chamber was used with a nozzle directing the exhaust over the upper surface of a row of plates. Only the plates directly under the flame experienced lift.

[ChrisPCrunchy]

So can the explosion be directed to the rear to give thrust. Then the exhaust gases directed over the upper leed edge of say a wing where they create lift as they implode? How do you propose to do this? Wouldnt the effect dissipate if it wasnt enclosed in a containment unit? Fascinating idea but how can it work practically?

[sapoty]

Maybe. There are lots of questions to elucidate ... please start experimenting now! My view is that the exhaust gas at the front of the vehicle would best be directed perpendicularly to the direct of motion with the intent to blast the air out of the way.

An oxy-hydrogen rocket could also be used at the rear.

[ChrisPCrunchy]

The only place I could think of this being used was the german V1 flying bombs during the second world war. They used a resonant rocket that used both the explosion of gas for thrust and the implosion as the ram effect for air intake. This system gave relatively low thrust but was cheap to produce. Ideal for disposable engines on bombs.

[konatsukuonji]

If only you could use a longer tube with the piston free hanging, held by the external pressure verses the internal pressure. Then we could see the initial explosion push the piston in the other direction before bringing it up.

[sapoty]

Yes it would be interesting to have it working a whole cycle. But I am more interested in directing the explosion tangentially to the piston so the downward force is minimised. This would enable the explosion to generate extra lift via the Coanda Effect. See the Links page in my excusertech website. Thanks for your interest.

[ChrisPCrunchy]

The vaccuum (Coanda effect) reduces as the temperature of the surrounding materials heats up (Temperature equalises). This would make the use of this effect only temporary in a practical sense and it would be less effective in apparatus where heat cannot be rapidly dissipated as in an internal combustion engine.

[sapoty]

The Coanda effect is the lower pressure produced by gas flow over a convex surface. The oxy-hydrogen implosion is an additional source of pressure reduction. Because there is continuous flow of air to produce the Coanda effect, there is a continuous supply of unheated air. In addition it is conceivable that the convex surface could be internally cooled if necessary.

[benotech]

Great physical demonstration. SmartScarecrow mentions that a by-product of this process is the production of high voltage electricity. Could this be used to repeat the process?

[sapoty]

If electricity is produced then it would not be as much as the electricity used initially to make the oxy-hydrogen. Some of the initial energy is used up in the flash of light, heat, and the bang, etc.

[SmartScarecrow]

I would agree that much less would be returned than put in. Much of what gets put in goes to waste heat anyway. If such a phenomena exists, I suspect that it would be in the form of a static discharge. A residual static charge might remain on your plastic tube for some time after the ignition. It is possible to construct a fairly simple device to detect the presence of static electricity. Would be facinating to see this proved or disproved.

[sapoty]

If I stop responding you can assume that I have been electrocuted...;-)

[SmartScarecrow]

hahaha ... go for it man !!! you know you want to and you got the apparatus ... I'll call for the paramedics if I dont hear back from you ... besides, the guy I read the article about suposedly survived ... just curled his hair a little ...

[DaRecka]

I am not science minded, and do not 100% understand this, DONT MAKE ME THINK THAT HARD AGAIN!

[ChrisPCrunchy]

Good video, Nice demonstration, One thing though what happened to the string? Thanks for sharing.

[sapoty]

It got pulled in like crazy (9 cm). You can see it flipping around in the slow-mo section.

[mielectric1]

great to see some work being done to demonstrate the implosion effect.

[SmartScarecrow]

Good aparatus to demo the effect. Rube Goldberg would be proud.

There is another effect that needs to be confirmed. It has been reported that when the oxygen and hydrogen recombine to form water, there is a discharge of high voltage electricity.

Would be interesting if you could figure out a way to demonstrate this effect.

[sapoty]

Can you provide any references for this?

[SmartScarecrow]

I wish I could but I cannot remember where I read about this. Am sure it was an article on the Internet when I was doing researh.  A fellow had put together an apparatus similar to your but made of a conducting tube. Made the mistake of holding it to steady it. When the HHO was ignited he got quite a shock according to the article I read. Would be great to confirm this. Maybe a copper coil around your tube connected to an occiliscope?

[sapoty]

Have you got any idea what the physics behind this could be? (Without having to invent any mystical concepts :-))

[SmartScarecrow]

That would be well beyond my limited understanding. But if you think about it kind of makes sense. Put electricity in water splits. Reconbine the elements and it returns to water and gives back the electricity. I would assume the electricy returned would sort of like lightning. A form of static discharge. Your apparatus with a coil wrap might be able to detect this.

[alivefoods]

a trillion dollar potential - count me in for an excuser based society