My in laws believe in predest...they are good people but you would never know they are "Christians" because (I believe) they keep God to themselves since it is up to God to reach out and it's already pre determined who will be saved and who won't. All of the predestination stuff seems evil to me, no light shining, no answer for the hope that lies within, no who soever will. If I believe this I would never have kids because they may be destined for Hell with no hope of salvation. PEACE
If evil exists and evil is not contingent upon man then evil is an attribute of God as contingencies pre exist in their cause and are actualized ontologically by the one that willed it, and in the case of Calvinism God causes the evil thus becoming an attribute of God. In Calvinism evil is God’s will. From Romans 9 God does not pass over men but men are fitted and made for destruction before they did good or bad.
@GBFNorwalk I can only assume you must be an open theist. That issue exist still if you are not. If God is all knowing, he knew Adam would fall, and he created him either way. How do you deal with that. With you logic, would you not have to say that God had the ability to not let evil come into existence, but he did anyway by allowing men to have "free will", so he should still be to blame. Of course, I do not believe this, as I am a Calvinist.
No I am not an open theist. Allowing man to cause evil is a far difference from God being the cause and the author and finisher of evil which is the reality in Calvinism since as you admit there is no free will. How is God to blame for allowing men to create evil?
@GBFNorwalk But is that not what Calvinist say? God ordained the Fall to happen, he did not stop it even though he could. Also, you are talking about something that is debated in reformed circles. What was the condition of Adam's will? The Bible does not tell us precisely, however we do know God is in control of all things, so, whatever Adam did had to be ordained by God to take place. You have to understand there are secondary causes which you seem to accept, so what are you arguing against
In Calvinism God is the primary cause of evil. Its not that He did not stop it, He is the cause. Causes pre exist in the cause that cognitively willed it. In Calvinism God is the cause of all things ontologically. In Calvinism what God knows, God causes.
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
explain, you hold to a single predestination? I dont understand your point. So do you admit that Calvinists hold to the same anthropological rational spontenaiety that the atheists do?
Wow. You completely changed the true meaning of that parable. amazing. That parable was directed at the Pharisees and its purpose was to condemn their traditions. The parable does not say anything about how God deals with men.
Amazing! The parable is a universal truth. Unless of course you believe God has different truths for different men. Relataivism? Evedently you are more moral than God.
@GBFNorwalk Wow...no....obviously I am not more moral than God, nor would I ever claim to be. I am a depraved sinner undeserving of God's mercy and grace. Please don't use personal attacks to make your points. The scriptures are sufficent for that purpose. I was simply stating the meaning of the parable within the context of the passage. That does not equate to relativism. We both agree that God's truths are universal and not relative.
Sorry you drew first blood so to speak. My bad. Well if the truth is universal the context is applicable to all and the argument in the video stands valid.
@GBFNorwalk Apology eccepted. I think both of our goals is to understand scripture as accurately as possible. Currently, we are not coming to the same conclusions.
steokitty flip flops repeatedly on ordination and causality. The truth is Calvinism is fatalism as in Calvinism man is not truly free but God causes all evil and man in Calvinism is merely the instrument in which God does evil.
steokitty tried to use the crucifixion to prove Calvinism but it proves non Calvinism as Jesus was ordained and yet He freely laid down His life which is synergistic.
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
And did God not tell Moses that he was going to do many wondrous things in the sight of Pharaoh, but that it was God's intention to harden the heart of the king of Egypt, SO THAT God would demonstrate his power? Did not God say of Pharaoh "FOR THIS PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP"? And to Moses "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will harden whom I will to harden"?? Yes? No?
Talk about setting up strawmen as you spam my video? Then you knock them down yourself. Yes thank you for defining the non Calvinist position. You are describing God interacting with man synergistically along with mans will. But this is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches that God causes evil by ordination.
So now we have you saying that man is free but in fact He also causally ordains what man does so as man cannot do otherwise. What I understand is that your comment is a contradiction. You are saying God did not cause it when God caused it. There are multiple contradictions in your last rant. The truth is what God knows God causes in Calvinism including all of the evil in the world. Satan and evil men are merely doing Gods will.
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago.
And the writers of the Holy Scriptures -- were they in a trance, like some automaton? Did they not write in their own styles, by an act of their wills, yet were they not so influenced by the Holy Spirit that they wrote precisely and exactly the very inerrant, infallible Word of God?
And let us not forget that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev13:8); that his crucifixion was not an accident, but that which was ordained of God. Shall you say otherwise? Was there any possible way that Christ's crucifixion would not take place? And at the same time, did not wicked men, acting in accordance to their evil hearts, did they not do of their own will, YET at the same time do God's will? But God didn't have to actively tempt them to do it! Yes? No?
Let's take a look at the good Samaritan story: The Jew, the enemy of Samaritans, is helpless, as good as dead. The Samaritan doesn't hold out his hands and say "Here's your chance to be saved". NO! He rescues the man, and cares for him. God does this with EVERY person who is saved. And since everyone is not saved, we can safely say that God has not doen this for everyone. If God only offered "chances" then NONE would be saved, just as the dying Jew would not have survived!
Where does the story tell us that God irresistibly helped the man? Also in Calvinism God caused the calamity in the persons life as He is the cause of all of the calamity and evil in the world. The story does describe Calvinist soteriology because it makes a moral argument. And the god of Calvinism as He passes by the human race is doing the same immoral thing as is in the story as you have already demonstrated God in Calvinism does not offer salvation to most of His creation.
God in Calvinism actually does not offer sin or salvation to anyone but causes sin and salvation irresistibly. Calvinism teaches irresistible evil and unconditional and unmerited reprobation.
I have studied your theologians I have already told you.
@GBFNorwalk - God "offers sin"??? Irresistible evil? What the heck is that? Calvinism teaches nothing of the sort. Another straw man. And here's my favourite "unmerited reprobation"!! My word, man. Do you ever tire of inventing phony doctrines? You obviously have NEVER studied Calvinist writings, but rather, you've read crappy little books by the likes of Dave Hunt, and Norman Geisler on the topic, both of whom haven't a clue as to what they're talking about.
@GBFNorwalk - Could the man resist? He was HELPLESS, just as dead sinners are helpless. And he was the ENEMY of the Samaritan, much as we, in our natural state are enemies of God, according to the Scriptures. The Samaritan powerfully helps the man, who is as good as dead, seeing as his own friends wont' stop to help him. But we mustn't take parables too far. I was simply pointing out that your use of this parable doesn't work for your position, but does support Calvinist soteriology. Cont ...
@GBFNorwalk - God didn't CAUSE the calamity, but had indeed ordained it, and was in complete control over it. I'd be happy to give you MYRIAD verses which speak of God's absolute rule over his creation. Do I need to go there?
I guess you failed to remember that GOD says "I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will harden whom I will".
This is utter nonsense. Firstly the "good Samaritan" passage isn't about salvation. Secondly, no THINKING Calvinist believes in "single" predestination. Thirdly, reading a book on Calvinistic soteriology BY a Calvinist author would be helpful, since you obviously don't have a handle on what we believe and WHY we believe it. But making these multiple (and dreadfully bad) videos against a position you don't even understand is really making a fool of yourself.
Calling someone a fool is always a good beginning. I have read most of your sides books and have been familiar with what Calvinism teaches for many years. In fact I was first exposed to Calvinism and find it in contradiction. God is reason and Calvinism must in the final analysis leave reason for mysteries and contradictions. Therefore I reject it as there is logical precondition in systematic theology.
@GBFNorwalk - I didn't call you a fool - I said you're making a fool of yourself (which you do by blatant misrepresentation, straw man, etc.). Have you read "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner -- considered one of the most thorough treatments of the topic? There is nothing MORE reasonable than Calvinism. It's an AFFIRMATION of the Scriptures, whereas everything else is a DENIAL.
One who does foolish things would be a fool. This would be called a back handed insult. Your already starting errors and contradictions and strawmen. I saw your challenge video and it is but a strawman about what non Calvinists believe and as I have not seen you prove anything yet.
@GBFNorwalk - Methinks thou hast beheld another video. My "challenge" video isn't about what Arminians and Semi-Pelagians believe. It's a challenge to people like you, to stop making up fake doctrines to fight (and win) against. My challenge is to actually study the matter, and then ACCUSE US OF BELIEVING WHAT WE ACTUALLY BELIEVE.
@GBFNorwalk - Oh, and by the way, simply crying "straw man!" when no one has even erected an argument (much less a straw man) is absurd. I haven't accused you of any belief system. I've called you on straw man erection, which now obligates me to prove my accusation. But you cannot logically accuse me of contradiction nor straw man, since I've not made any doctrinal claim.
Listen, I would love to continue our conversation but you must watch your mouth and bear the Fruit of the Spirit.
So the logical conclusion of your argument then and what you are saying in that God ordaining is not causal then you must also hold that my salvation was ordained by God but not caused by Him.
Now the contradictions begin. God did not cause evil but You use Romans 9 to show that if Romans 9 is Calvinistic then God caused the hardening of hearts or irresistible evl. So we see in Calvinistic ordination it is causal. Such as in Romans 9 that Those are fitted for destruction are therefore caused by God to do evil before they did good or bad thus unmerited reprobation. Like I said Calvinism and Calvinists are postulating a succession of logical fallacies and contradictions.
@GBFNorwalk - Not entirely sure what it is that I must "watch my mouth" about. I haven't used any foul language, nor have I disrespected you.
But to your claim: God is ultimately responsible for all things, whether good or evil, since he has the power to permit them, or to stop them. According to his own words, he has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. God is not the direct author of sin, but he ordains and uses it to demonstrate his own glory (see the story of Joseph). Cont...
I do not blame you from moving away from Romans (which you brought up)where we see Calvinistic reprobation is unconditional. Again you show that Gods ordination is causal in that when He ordains salvation He causes hearts to be freed and yet deny causality in reprobation. So is it not true that God causally hardens hearts and causally frees hearts. You have now said God both hardens hearts and changes hearts from stone but not causally? This is illogical.
And also you say He permits evil which is not Calvinist but Arminian. In Calvinism what God knows, God causes. So again in your argument God does not cause when He ordains it nust also follow that I must be the cause of my salvation. So does God ordain permissively or causally you cannot have it both ways or you are in contradiction. Please dont change the subject.
OK then if in John 6 God drags and does not draw the others then is this passive or causal. You see you will always flip flop on this as it is the only way to support your Calvinistic position. And if God drags men causally into salvation He must also drag them causally into sin by ordination.
@GBFNorwalk - Your oversimplification is rather telling.
I think I was quite clear in that God is ultimately responsible for ALL good and evil, since he's sovereign. I've never said that God doesn't cause what he ordains. And yes, you do believe you are the cause of your own salvation. I don't. I haven't changed the subject.
Well you do not know then what we believe then. So you are guilty of doing what you claim is objectionable in that you accuse our side of things we absolutely do not believe.
I dont know what to tell you are now saying God does cause everything but before you said quote (God didn't CAUSE the calamity, but had indeed ordained it). You are contradicting yourself. You will continue to do this and this is why you are wrong because I do not accept your contradictions.
@GBFNorwalk - Please slow down when you respond. Your third sentence is incoherent. I'd like to know what you mean when you speak.
God didn't directly, personally move Joseph's brothers to act wickedly. If he did, he'd be the author of sin, and this is what the BIBLE denies. But we read that while THEY meant it for evil, God MEANT it for good, IN ORDER to save many lives. It was no accident or chance happening. Understand?
@GBFNorwalk - Are you kidding me? I'd never "move away from Romans". Romans 9 in particular is yet another point where the Arminian argument is obliterrated. Like I said, GOD says that he hardens one and has mercy on the other. All I'm doing is affirming the Word, while it appears to me that you're busy denying it, just as I previously claimed is the case between the two positions. So, are you saying that God doesn't need to free hearts? We can do that ourselves?
@GBFNorwalk - Cont ... As to the salvation of men, God powerfully, and irresistably brings about the salvation of his elect, whom he chose before the foundation of the world. He doesn't FORCE conversion. He raises dead spirits to life, changes hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, opens blind eyes and deaf ears (all spiritually speaking). These now CAN see, and loathe their sin, and turn to Christ in faith for salvation.
@GBFNorwalk - Remember, Jesus in John 6 says clearly that no one CAN come to him UNLESS the Father DRAWS them. And he raises ALL that the Father draws to life on the Last Day, losing none of them, whom the Father has given him. Therefore, those who do not come to Christ were NOT DRAWN by the Father. This passage alone obliterates any anti-Calvinist position, and it's one of many. I'm going to make a video proving as much.
And yes your video and your argument here is a strawman. You say non Calvinists and myself do not know what you believe. This is either a strawman or dishonesty as I have told you that I know exactly what you believe and have studied for many years and have read your sides writings.
@GBFNorwalk - I believe you need to look up the definition for "straw man argument". I've done none of the sort in claiming that you don't understand Calvinist Doctrine. All of your comments have proven this manifestly. Listen, brother, we LOVE to admit to what we believe. We LOATHE to constantly defend what we DO believe against what we DO NOT believe.
I asked you clearly if you've read Boettner's book front to back. Please answer.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Collossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The Godhead has been revealed to all men. God has not passed by anyone as Calvinism teaches.
Your question: "Is it moral for God to pass by those who are born with a birth defect?"
But no one was born with a mere birth defect because that would imply that we are innocent victims. God didn't send his Son to die to save innocent victims but to pardon guilty sinners.
We will stand before the Judge of the Universe and no one will be able to say, "well it was because of this birth defect."
Also why did you remove my question from your channel asking you who you are and why you comment from an anonomous channel? Why wont you introduce yourself?
I am an internet minimalist. So I don't have a internet presence open to the public. Internet privacy settings are optional for a reason and are at the discretion of each and every user. Just personal preference thats all.
Although, our conversation here isn't really about me (or you for that matter) it is about presenting arguments and then reasoning together in humility to see if they are indeed true.
Your entire comment was a strawman as you did not prove any fallacies you merely listed (you have not made any arguments) and claimed fallacies. My videos are to appeal, but not to emotions but to the conscience.
Its not like it because God judges, and dispenses that judgement righteously, man does not. God can kill anyone He wishes at any time for any reason because we have all broken His law. The baby in the womb is innocent relative to man and sinners do not have the right to terminate life unjustly.
This isn't difficult to follow Norwalk, you just hate Gods sovereignty so you deliberately misrepresent those who love it.
Do you really believe there are masses of people groups who have not heard of Jesus? Every people group I can think of knows who Jesus is and free willingly reject Him. Who are the people you speak of?
do you really question the point? from the time Christ died and uttered "it is finished" the unsaved around the world were dying without hearing the gospel. what about those millions and millions? i've recently heard John Piper state that there are still over a thousand people groups who have no idea who Christ is. you can't seriously doubt that can you?
I doubt it because the Bible says all know. Everyone culture has been revealed God and can trace their ancestry to the God of the Bible. They suppress the truth. They are responsible to know who the Godhead is. They will be responsible for what they know. They have exchanged the truth for a lie (Rom 1:23,25)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Does not Romans 1:16 show the gospel is the topic in which the rest of the chapter have been revealed to those in General Revelation and they suppress the truth. So yes all have heard or have been revealed the gospel one way or the other.
Its not just the knowledge of sin. Come on now did you not read Romans 1:20,21? Is not the Godhead revealed and understood preaching of the gospel? Conscience of what? The gospel. And they suppress it. So if not the gospel what have they suppressed? Verse 16, the gospel.
they have a certain knowledge of God that they have indeed suppressed. all men have. this certainly cannot be characterized as hearing the gospel. back to my original question which you didn't answer. can a man be saved without hearing about the gospel of Christ?
Matthew 24:14 "and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then the end shall come". maybe reconsider your understanding of the gospel, because once all nations have heard the end shall come. based on your comment accoding to romans 1 all have all they need to be saved so they dont
If man does not preach it then God Himself will. Why to you limit God to be dependant upon man?
John 16:7-9
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Its funny to me that in Calvinism a person is not saved by their own faith but they are saved when you Calvinists have enough faith to go preach the gospel. So actually they are saved by your faith I guess.
my point was that according to Christ's own words the gospel hasn't been preached in all the world yet since the end hasn't come which means some die without hearing the gospel.
There is almost no one on earth that has not heard of Jesus. Even the Muslim parents who raise their children teach them that there is a people called Christians who believe Jesus is the only God, Hindu and Buddhist are raised that Jesus was a prophet who Christians believe is God. Even the heathens are preaching the gospel. These people are now responsible to believe in Jesus.
If you have heard of Jesus you are responsible to believe the Godhead. Whether it is preached by man or by God Himself in general revelation.
It is your narrow-minded partial view that on the gospel is preached to western culture now as most Calvinists hold to covenant and replacement theology. God loves the world and even the stones will call out His Name.
you contradict Christ's words, since only when the gospel is preached in the whole world the end comes. why won't you concede that not every human ever born has heard the gospel of Christ?
Sorry I blocked canucksteel. He was predestined to be blocked i guess. I will talk to anyone but same thing over and over I dont have time for. Read the comments we had and then take it or leave it. He was very respectful.
Millions may have not heard the gospel, yet those same millions God has given an account of himself. What can be made known of God has been made evident to them. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth. God knows who will respond to the inward calling, and who will not. However he can still make use of those that will not believe... Some may see their unrighteousness, and detest it.. Some may hear the gospel through them. God can use a donkey, surely he can use the unrighteous.
i'm not sure "God has given account of himself" since Romans 10:14 says "How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard". they do have a conscience that they have violated which is a witness against them.
If GOD did truly see menkind as *not worthy* to live, as calvinism suggests, then Menkind, simply woulda not longer exist lol. But Instead, many efforts FOR ALL of menkind have been fully extended, for thier sake alone
To all humans who can read this message
Calvinism is a spiritual disease. I pray the Holy Spirit will open your eyes from this evil teaching!
changeishere2008 9 months ago
My in laws believe in predest...they are good people but you would never know they are "Christians" because (I believe) they keep God to themselves since it is up to God to reach out and it's already pre determined who will be saved and who won't. All of the predestination stuff seems evil to me, no light shining, no answer for the hope that lies within, no who soever will. If I believe this I would never have kids because they may be destined for Hell with no hope of salvation. PEACE
Iseeit4u 1 year ago
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@Iseeit4u
Calvinism is a spiritual disease. I pray the Holy Spirit will open people's eyes from this evil teaching!
changeishere2008 9 months ago
@thesilverhouse
If evil exists and evil is not contingent upon man then evil is an attribute of God as contingencies pre exist in their cause and are actualized ontologically by the one that willed it, and in the case of Calvinism God causes the evil thus becoming an attribute of God. In Calvinism evil is God’s will. From Romans 9 God does not pass over men but men are fitted and made for destruction before they did good or bad.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk I can only assume you must be an open theist. That issue exist still if you are not. If God is all knowing, he knew Adam would fall, and he created him either way. How do you deal with that. With you logic, would you not have to say that God had the ability to not let evil come into existence, but he did anyway by allowing men to have "free will", so he should still be to blame. Of course, I do not believe this, as I am a Calvinist.
acfathome 1 year ago
@acfathome
No I am not an open theist. Allowing man to cause evil is a far difference from God being the cause and the author and finisher of evil which is the reality in Calvinism since as you admit there is no free will. How is God to blame for allowing men to create evil?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk But is that not what Calvinist say? God ordained the Fall to happen, he did not stop it even though he could. Also, you are talking about something that is debated in reformed circles. What was the condition of Adam's will? The Bible does not tell us precisely, however we do know God is in control of all things, so, whatever Adam did had to be ordained by God to take place. You have to understand there are secondary causes which you seem to accept, so what are you arguing against
acfathome 1 year ago
@acfathome
In Calvinism God is the primary cause of evil. Its not that He did not stop it, He is the cause. Causes pre exist in the cause that cognitively willed it. In Calvinism God is the cause of all things ontologically. In Calvinism what God knows, God causes.
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it."
-John Calvin (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
(Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
This is proves Calvinism is a spiritual disease. I pray the Holy Spirit will open people's eyes from this evil teaching!
changeishere2008 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@GBFNorwalk
Calvinism is a spiritual disease. I pray the Holy Spirit will open people's eyes from this evil teaching!
changeishere2008 9 months ago
@acfathome
It's beyond me how one can believe in john Calvin's sick garbage.
changeishere2008 9 months ago
@thesilverhouse
please do not ry to set up strawmen you hope to knock down yourself. In single predestination does God pass over some and save others?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@thesilverhouse
explain, you hold to a single predestination? I dont understand your point. So do you admit that Calvinists hold to the same anthropological rational spontenaiety that the atheists do?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
Wow. You completely changed the true meaning of that parable. amazing. That parable was directed at the Pharisees and its purpose was to condemn their traditions. The parable does not say anything about how God deals with men.
proginosko 1 year ago
@proginosko
Amazing! The parable is a universal truth. Unless of course you believe God has different truths for different men. Relataivism? Evedently you are more moral than God.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Wow...no....obviously I am not more moral than God, nor would I ever claim to be. I am a depraved sinner undeserving of God's mercy and grace. Please don't use personal attacks to make your points. The scriptures are sufficent for that purpose. I was simply stating the meaning of the parable within the context of the passage. That does not equate to relativism. We both agree that God's truths are universal and not relative.
proginosko 1 year ago
@proginosko
Sorry you drew first blood so to speak. My bad. Well if the truth is universal the context is applicable to all and the argument in the video stands valid.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk Apology eccepted. I think both of our goals is to understand scripture as accurately as possible. Currently, we are not coming to the same conclusions.
proginosko 1 year ago
steokitty flip flops repeatedly on ordination and causality. The truth is Calvinism is fatalism as in Calvinism man is not truly free but God causes all evil and man in Calvinism is merely the instrument in which God does evil.
steokitty tried to use the crucifixion to prove Calvinism but it proves non Calvinism as Jesus was ordained and yet He freely laid down His life which is synergistic.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
John 10:17-18
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
And did God not tell Moses that he was going to do many wondrous things in the sight of Pharaoh, but that it was God's intention to harden the heart of the king of Egypt, SO THAT God would demonstrate his power? Did not God say of Pharaoh "FOR THIS PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP"? And to Moses "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will harden whom I will to harden"?? Yes? No?
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Talk about setting up strawmen as you spam my video? Then you knock them down yourself. Yes thank you for defining the non Calvinist position. You are describing God interacting with man synergistically along with mans will. But this is not what Calvinism teaches. Calvinism teaches that God causes evil by ordination.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@steogkitty
So now we have you saying that man is free but in fact He also causally ordains what man does so as man cannot do otherwise. What I understand is that your comment is a contradiction. You are saying God did not cause it when God caused it. There are multiple contradictions in your last rant. The truth is what God knows God causes in Calvinism including all of the evil in the world. Satan and evil men are merely doing Gods will.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Loraine Boettner (Calvinist)
Now if future events are foreknown to God, they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown, history will follow that course as definitely as a locomotive follows the rails from New York to Chicago.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Again your contradictions are endless such as you saying quote (I've never said that God doesn't cause what he ordains.)
Shortly after you said quote (God didn't CAUSE the calamity, but had indeed ordained it)
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
And the writers of the Holy Scriptures -- were they in a trance, like some automaton? Did they not write in their own styles, by an act of their wills, yet were they not so influenced by the Holy Spirit that they wrote precisely and exactly the very inerrant, infallible Word of God?
stegokitty 1 year ago
And let us not forget that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev13:8); that his crucifixion was not an accident, but that which was ordained of God. Shall you say otherwise? Was there any possible way that Christ's crucifixion would not take place? And at the same time, did not wicked men, acting in accordance to their evil hearts, did they not do of their own will, YET at the same time do God's will? But God didn't have to actively tempt them to do it! Yes? No?
stegokitty 1 year ago
Let's take a look at the good Samaritan story: The Jew, the enemy of Samaritans, is helpless, as good as dead. The Samaritan doesn't hold out his hands and say "Here's your chance to be saved". NO! He rescues the man, and cares for him. God does this with EVERY person who is saved. And since everyone is not saved, we can safely say that God has not doen this for everyone. If God only offered "chances" then NONE would be saved, just as the dying Jew would not have survived!
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Where does the story tell us that God irresistibly helped the man? Also in Calvinism God caused the calamity in the persons life as He is the cause of all of the calamity and evil in the world. The story does describe Calvinist soteriology because it makes a moral argument. And the god of Calvinism as He passes by the human race is doing the same immoral thing as is in the story as you have already demonstrated God in Calvinism does not offer salvation to most of His creation.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk
God in Calvinism actually does not offer sin or salvation to anyone but causes sin and salvation irresistibly. Calvinism teaches irresistible evil and unconditional and unmerited reprobation.
I have studied your theologians I have already told you.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - God "offers sin"??? Irresistible evil? What the heck is that? Calvinism teaches nothing of the sort. Another straw man. And here's my favourite "unmerited reprobation"!! My word, man. Do you ever tire of inventing phony doctrines? You obviously have NEVER studied Calvinist writings, but rather, you've read crappy little books by the likes of Dave Hunt, and Norman Geisler on the topic, both of whom haven't a clue as to what they're talking about.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Could the man resist? He was HELPLESS, just as dead sinners are helpless. And he was the ENEMY of the Samaritan, much as we, in our natural state are enemies of God, according to the Scriptures. The Samaritan powerfully helps the man, who is as good as dead, seeing as his own friends wont' stop to help him. But we mustn't take parables too far. I was simply pointing out that your use of this parable doesn't work for your position, but does support Calvinist soteriology. Cont ...
stegokitty 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - God didn't CAUSE the calamity, but had indeed ordained it, and was in complete control over it. I'd be happy to give you MYRIAD verses which speak of God's absolute rule over his creation. Do I need to go there?
I guess you failed to remember that GOD says "I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will harden whom I will".
stegokitty 1 year ago
This is utter nonsense. Firstly the "good Samaritan" passage isn't about salvation. Secondly, no THINKING Calvinist believes in "single" predestination. Thirdly, reading a book on Calvinistic soteriology BY a Calvinist author would be helpful, since you obviously don't have a handle on what we believe and WHY we believe it. But making these multiple (and dreadfully bad) videos against a position you don't even understand is really making a fool of yourself.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Calling someone a fool is always a good beginning. I have read most of your sides books and have been familiar with what Calvinism teaches for many years. In fact I was first exposed to Calvinism and find it in contradiction. God is reason and Calvinism must in the final analysis leave reason for mysteries and contradictions. Therefore I reject it as there is logical precondition in systematic theology.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - I didn't call you a fool - I said you're making a fool of yourself (which you do by blatant misrepresentation, straw man, etc.). Have you read "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner -- considered one of the most thorough treatments of the topic? There is nothing MORE reasonable than Calvinism. It's an AFFIRMATION of the Scriptures, whereas everything else is a DENIAL.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
One who does foolish things would be a fool. This would be called a back handed insult. Your already starting errors and contradictions and strawmen. I saw your challenge video and it is but a strawman about what non Calvinists believe and as I have not seen you prove anything yet.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Methinks thou hast beheld another video. My "challenge" video isn't about what Arminians and Semi-Pelagians believe. It's a challenge to people like you, to stop making up fake doctrines to fight (and win) against. My challenge is to actually study the matter, and then ACCUSE US OF BELIEVING WHAT WE ACTUALLY BELIEVE.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Oh, and by the way, simply crying "straw man!" when no one has even erected an argument (much less a straw man) is absurd. I haven't accused you of any belief system. I've called you on straw man erection, which now obligates me to prove my accusation. But you cannot logically accuse me of contradiction nor straw man, since I've not made any doctrinal claim.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Listen, I would love to continue our conversation but you must watch your mouth and bear the Fruit of the Spirit.
So the logical conclusion of your argument then and what you are saying in that God ordaining is not causal then you must also hold that my salvation was ordained by God but not caused by Him.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
Now the contradictions begin. God did not cause evil but You use Romans 9 to show that if Romans 9 is Calvinistic then God caused the hardening of hearts or irresistible evl. So we see in Calvinistic ordination it is causal. Such as in Romans 9 that Those are fitted for destruction are therefore caused by God to do evil before they did good or bad thus unmerited reprobation. Like I said Calvinism and Calvinists are postulating a succession of logical fallacies and contradictions.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Not entirely sure what it is that I must "watch my mouth" about. I haven't used any foul language, nor have I disrespected you.
But to your claim: God is ultimately responsible for all things, whether good or evil, since he has the power to permit them, or to stop them. According to his own words, he has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. God is not the direct author of sin, but he ordains and uses it to demonstrate his own glory (see the story of Joseph). Cont...
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
I do not blame you from moving away from Romans (which you brought up)where we see Calvinistic reprobation is unconditional. Again you show that Gods ordination is causal in that when He ordains salvation He causes hearts to be freed and yet deny causality in reprobation. So is it not true that God causally hardens hearts and causally frees hearts. You have now said God both hardens hearts and changes hearts from stone but not causally? This is illogical.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
And also you say He permits evil which is not Calvinist but Arminian. In Calvinism what God knows, God causes. So again in your argument God does not cause when He ordains it nust also follow that I must be the cause of my salvation. So does God ordain permissively or causally you cannot have it both ways or you are in contradiction. Please dont change the subject.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
OK then if in John 6 God drags and does not draw the others then is this passive or causal. You see you will always flip flop on this as it is the only way to support your Calvinistic position. And if God drags men causally into salvation He must also drag them causally into sin by ordination.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Your oversimplification is rather telling.
I think I was quite clear in that God is ultimately responsible for ALL good and evil, since he's sovereign. I've never said that God doesn't cause what he ordains. And yes, you do believe you are the cause of your own salvation. I don't. I haven't changed the subject.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
Well you do not know then what we believe then. So you are guilty of doing what you claim is objectionable in that you accuse our side of things we absolutely do not believe.
I dont know what to tell you are now saying God does cause everything but before you said quote (God didn't CAUSE the calamity, but had indeed ordained it). You are contradicting yourself. You will continue to do this and this is why you are wrong because I do not accept your contradictions.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Please slow down when you respond. Your third sentence is incoherent. I'd like to know what you mean when you speak.
God didn't directly, personally move Joseph's brothers to act wickedly. If he did, he'd be the author of sin, and this is what the BIBLE denies. But we read that while THEY meant it for evil, God MEANT it for good, IN ORDER to save many lives. It was no accident or chance happening. Understand?
stegokitty 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Are you kidding me? I'd never "move away from Romans". Romans 9 in particular is yet another point where the Arminian argument is obliterrated. Like I said, GOD says that he hardens one and has mercy on the other. All I'm doing is affirming the Word, while it appears to me that you're busy denying it, just as I previously claimed is the case between the two positions. So, are you saying that God doesn't need to free hearts? We can do that ourselves?
stegokitty 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Cont ... As to the salvation of men, God powerfully, and irresistably brings about the salvation of his elect, whom he chose before the foundation of the world. He doesn't FORCE conversion. He raises dead spirits to life, changes hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, opens blind eyes and deaf ears (all spiritually speaking). These now CAN see, and loathe their sin, and turn to Christ in faith for salvation.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - Remember, Jesus in John 6 says clearly that no one CAN come to him UNLESS the Father DRAWS them. And he raises ALL that the Father draws to life on the Last Day, losing none of them, whom the Father has given him. Therefore, those who do not come to Christ were NOT DRAWN by the Father. This passage alone obliterates any anti-Calvinist position, and it's one of many. I'm going to make a video proving as much.
stegokitty 1 year ago
@stegokitty
And yes your video and your argument here is a strawman. You say non Calvinists and myself do not know what you believe. This is either a strawman or dishonesty as I have told you that I know exactly what you believe and have studied for many years and have read your sides writings.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBFNorwalk - I believe you need to look up the definition for "straw man argument". I've done none of the sort in claiming that you don't understand Calvinist Doctrine. All of your comments have proven this manifestly. Listen, brother, we LOVE to admit to what we believe. We LOATHE to constantly defend what we DO believe against what we DO NOT believe.
I asked you clearly if you've read Boettner's book front to back. Please answer.
stegokitty 1 year ago
Where are you getting all this info?
Licmycat 1 year ago
@Licmycat
What info?
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
GBF Norwalk
Can you explain to me what you mean by birth defect?
EzekielRomans 1 year ago
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Collossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The Godhead has been revealed to all men. God has not passed by anyone as Calvinism teaches.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Your question: "Is it moral for God to pass by those who are born with a birth defect?"
But no one was born with a mere birth defect because that would imply that we are innocent victims. God didn't send his Son to die to save innocent victims but to pardon guilty sinners.
We will stand before the Judge of the Universe and no one will be able to say, "well it was because of this birth defect."
EzekielRomans 2 years ago
@EzekielRomans
This entire comment you posted is a strawman.
Also why did you remove my question from your channel asking you who you are and why you comment from an anonomous channel? Why wont you introduce yourself?
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
GBFNorwalk
I am an internet minimalist. So I don't have a internet presence open to the public. Internet privacy settings are optional for a reason and are at the discretion of each and every user. Just personal preference thats all.
Although, our conversation here isn't really about me (or you for that matter) it is about presenting arguments and then reasoning together in humility to see if they are indeed true.
EzekielRomans 2 years ago
GBFNorwalk
....getting back to the original conversation. What specific points in my arguments are misrepresenting your view (straw man as you said)?
EzekielRomans 2 years ago
@EzekielRomans
Your entire comment was a strawman as you did not prove any fallacies you merely listed (you have not made any arguments) and claimed fallacies. My videos are to appeal, but not to emotions but to the conscience.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
GBF Norwalk
Can you explain to me what you mean by birth defect?
EzekielRomans 1 year ago
@EzekielRomans
Original sin is born in sin. Born is (birth).
When we are made alive in Jesus we are made perfect and an antonym for perfect is defect, thus before rebirth we had a (defect).
Birth defect.
GBFNorwalk 1 year ago
@GBF
How are you guilty before God with a birth defect?
How are you guilty before God when you were born in sin?
You didn't choose either of these things...
so how than are you culpable?
EzekielRomans 1 year ago
I found a few noteable logical fallacies in your presentation:
1) "lack of freedom" @ 4:45 (straw man)
2) "tortures them for eternity for simply having a birth defect" @ 5:07 (appeal to emotion/straw man)
3) "stands by watching most of his creation go to hell for his pleasure." (appeal to emotion/straw man)
If you can clarify your views for me that would be great. As of right now, I just see a lot of straw man arguments.
EzekielRomans 2 years ago
Its not like it because God judges, and dispenses that judgement righteously, man does not. God can kill anyone He wishes at any time for any reason because we have all broken His law. The baby in the womb is innocent relative to man and sinners do not have the right to terminate life unjustly.
This isn't difficult to follow Norwalk, you just hate Gods sovereignty so you deliberately misrepresent those who love it.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
does that mean you can be saved although you never heard the gospel?
canucksteel 2 years ago
Do you really believe there are masses of people groups who have not heard of Jesus? Every people group I can think of knows who Jesus is and free willingly reject Him. Who are the people you speak of?
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
do you really question the point? from the time Christ died and uttered "it is finished" the unsaved around the world were dying without hearing the gospel. what about those millions and millions? i've recently heard John Piper state that there are still over a thousand people groups who have no idea who Christ is. you can't seriously doubt that can you?
canucksteel 2 years ago
I doubt it because the Bible says all know. Everyone culture has been revealed God and can trace their ancestry to the God of the Bible. They suppress the truth. They are responsible to know who the Godhead is. They will be responsible for what they know. They have exchanged the truth for a lie (Rom 1:23,25)
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Romans 1:20,21
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
so they can be saved without hearing the gospel right?
canucksteel 2 years ago
Does not Romans 1:16 show the gospel is the topic in which the rest of the chapter have been revealed to those in General Revelation and they suppress the truth. So yes all have heard or have been revealed the gospel one way or the other.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
they haven't heard the gospel they have only been given a conscience. but, the knowledge of sin doesn't save does it?
canucksteel 2 years ago
Its not just the knowledge of sin. Come on now did you not read Romans 1:20,21? Is not the Godhead revealed and understood preaching of the gospel? Conscience of what? The gospel. And they suppress it. So if not the gospel what have they suppressed? Verse 16, the gospel.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
they have a certain knowledge of God that they have indeed suppressed. all men have. this certainly cannot be characterized as hearing the gospel. back to my original question which you didn't answer. can a man be saved without hearing about the gospel of Christ?
canucksteel 2 years ago
I have answered you. You can have one more comment.
It says they know God but suppress it They know the gospel. It has been preached. It does not say they have certain knowledge. It says they know.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Matthew 24:14 "and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then the end shall come". maybe reconsider your understanding of the gospel, because once all nations have heard the end shall come. based on your comment accoding to romans 1 all have all they need to be saved so they dont
need to be evangelized.
canucksteel 2 years ago
If man does not preach it then God Himself will. Why to you limit God to be dependant upon man?
John 16:7-9
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Its funny to me that in Calvinism a person is not saved by their own faith but they are saved when you Calvinists have enough faith to go preach the gospel. So actually they are saved by your faith I guess.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
my point was that according to Christ's own words the gospel hasn't been preached in all the world yet since the end hasn't come which means some die without hearing the gospel.
canucksteel 2 years ago
There is almost no one on earth that has not heard of Jesus. Even the Muslim parents who raise their children teach them that there is a people called Christians who believe Jesus is the only God, Hindu and Buddhist are raised that Jesus was a prophet who Christians believe is God. Even the heathens are preaching the gospel. These people are now responsible to believe in Jesus.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
If you have heard of Jesus you are responsible to believe the Godhead. Whether it is preached by man or by God Himself in general revelation.
It is your narrow-minded partial view that on the gospel is preached to western culture now as most Calvinists hold to covenant and replacement theology. God loves the world and even the stones will call out His Name.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
you contradict Christ's words, since only when the gospel is preached in the whole world the end comes. why won't you concede that not every human ever born has heard the gospel of Christ?
canucksteel 2 years ago
Matthew 24 says to all NATIONS! Why do you guys make this stuff up?
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Sorry I blocked canucksteel. He was predestined to be blocked i guess. I will talk to anyone but same thing over and over I dont have time for. Read the comments we had and then take it or leave it. He was very respectful.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
You once again demonstrate your utter ignorance of Calvinism.
It amazes me that someone who is so inept and ignorant can be a pastor of a church. You will not be held guiltless.
The "good Samaritan" has nothing to do with soteriology, yet, in your ignorance you make that application. Wise up sir, your folly is shining forth.
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
I am glad you liked it. So how in Calvinism is God not like Planned Paranthood?
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Wrong 5 point the video is not about soteriology it is about scoverignty and original sin.
GBFNorwalk 2 years ago
Comment removed
fivepointbaptist 2 years ago
hasn't God passed by the millions who have never heard the gospel?
canucksteel 2 years ago
Millions may have not heard the gospel, yet those same millions God has given an account of himself. What can be made known of God has been made evident to them. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth. God knows who will respond to the inward calling, and who will not. However he can still make use of those that will not believe... Some may see their unrighteousness, and detest it.. Some may hear the gospel through them. God can use a donkey, surely he can use the unrighteous.
MODERATECALVINISM 2 years ago
i'm not sure "God has given account of himself" since Romans 10:14 says "How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard". they do have a conscience that they have violated which is a witness against them.
canucksteel 2 years ago
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (Romans 1:19, KJV)
MODERATECALVINISM 2 years ago
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does that mean you can be saved without hearing the gospel?
canucksteel 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If GOD did truly see menkind as *not worthy* to live, as calvinism suggests, then Menkind, simply woulda not longer exist lol. But Instead, many efforts FOR ALL of menkind have been fully extended, for thier sake alone
MystSilverDragon 2 years ago
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calvinism causes many to feel *special*, when None are more special than any other, to GOD, at ALL. I appreciate your messeges.
MystSilverDragon 2 years ago