A four-letter word

[PhilippeDeChampaigne]

That baby is cute. The way it moves. Abortion is murder, and anyone who supports it is sick.

[missionarysarahbarry]

Abortion is an issue only because our society has abandoned Gods Word. God would rather nip this problem in the bud before any abortion could take place. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 says if a husband marries a girl and finds her not to be a virgin, then she is to be stoned to death. Notice the girl is to be killed without a concern of whether she might be pregnant. God doesnt want that selfish man stuck raising a baby which wasnt his! The bible god's answer is to kill both the girl and the baby

[sueezee]

mission:Abortion is an issue only because our society has abandoned Gods Word

Oh bologna!people were having & preforming abortion when the "word" was NOTabandoned. And,the bible says parents have God given authority over their children & that includes abortion.

miss:if a husband marries a girl and finds her not to be a virginthen she is to be stoned to death

The bible says for a man to take his cheating,pregnant wife "somewhere"to drink a mixture that will make her miscaarry.. ABORTION

[missionarysarahbarry]

when people believe in bible's god,even killing children becomes moral: Moses was angry with the officers of the army who returned from battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live? They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and turned the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. [Num 31:14-18]

[beavoicefortruth]

I agree with liarsarestupid. The reason that I long to see the end of abortion is not just for the pain and death of the baby, but also for the pain and death felt by women who have undergone an abortion. Women often feel trapped, cornered, like there is no other choice. It seems simple and fast, but the consequences are actually permanent. On the other hand, carrying for adoption takes 9 months, but there is no permanent guilt over ending a life.

[rwsaunders]

So let's say a 15 year old girl makes a mistake at a party, gets hammered, ends up pregnant. She should have to deal with that for nine months and possibly beyond? Early in pregnancy, an aboriton is hardly different from having a mole removed, and it could help her put her life straight. You'd refuse her that?

[FSFilms]

what exactly is your intent here?

[beavoicefortruth]

The point of the video is that Life is precious, and it is unmistakeable. A pre-born life is no different than a newborn, and if someone doesn't believe that, then they simply aren't looking at the evidence. This video shows a piece of that evidence.

[rwsaunders]

I have to disagree with you. This video provides no evidence of anything. It demonstartes clearly what a fetus is- an unconscious mass of tissue, and remains so for a very long time.

If a "pre-born life" is the same as a newborn, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the 40-million+ sperm that die every time a man masturbates. Or the single egg that dies every month for a woman.

[liarsarestupid]

Well, unfertilized sex cells have no life potential, whereas preborn and newborn babies and even older children are full of potential. From the moment of conception, every embryo to every child has the potential for adult development, while no single sex cell has that opportunity. No amount of care and provision will produce a child from a single cell. But once an embryo, only abortion will prevent the development.

[rwsaunders]

Only abortion? What about miscarriage? Preeclampsia? Any number of environmental toxins? Those things will prevent development.

You're making the argument that because a zygote COULD develop into a newborn, it MUST. There are plenty of environmental, emotional, socio-economic and personal reasons why that's not true.

[rwsaunders]

Further to that- where I live, abortions are allowed to be performed to a certain number of weeks (I'm not certain how many). At that point, the fetus is hardly formed, and certainly not capable of conscious thought, let alone survive outside the body. I think it's perfectly reasonable to terminate at that point if it means the parents could get their lives straight, finish school, or whatever their reasons were.

[liarsarestupid]

When a miscarriage occurs, there was no decision over the value of the naturally aborted child. I think you have misunderstood...I'm not saying that miscarriages or other problems are wrong...they are sad. But once a life has begun, it should at least be given the best chance to survive, even if other unavoidable factors interfere.

[rwsaunders]

Why? Don't you think it'd be better to minimize the number of children brought up by parents who weren't prepared to have kids, or have any number of other problems?

[liarsarestupid]

On top of that, we aren't actually minimizing anything. The fact of the matter is that there is a waiting list of up to a year or more for adoption. And the large majority of those waiting would provide an excellent home for those children. So the inconvenience of the child only has to last until birth. Someone who can't accept the results of their choices for even nine months without ending a life is very likely too selfish to ever make a good parent.

[liarsarestupid]

No, don't get me wrong. I understand the fear, the pain, the shame that often goes into the decision to abort. I do not believe that most women who have abortions are selfish and heartless. But they have been misinformed by activists and organizations that are. Which is why in national surveys, the vast majority of post-aborted women feel guilty or depressed after an abortion. The lies don't pass the reality test.

[rwsaunders]

Saying that they shouldn't be a parent is fine and good, but doesnt change the fact that she'd have to deal with the pregnancy. Get rid of abortion, and you're telling women that they have to be incubators, like it or not.

The right to do what you want with your body is one of the few we have left.

[liarsarestupid]

You have the right to get drunk, the right to have mindless sex, the right to speak freely as we are right now, and we also have the right not to put ourselves in compromising situations. I wouldn't ask a mom to be an incubator. But saying that having that abortion would put the girl's life straight is a lie. Do you think that a lifetime of guilt and depression is better than nine months of pregnancy?

[rwsaunders]

It's certainly true that some women regret it. But the important thing is to remember that others don't. That's why the choice must always be available.

You know, I know half a dozen girls who've had abortions. They've carried on happy and healthy without any problems.

[liarsarestupid]

I know it's cliche, but what about the original choice...the choice to get pregnant in the first place. There are no other interests to consider prior to this point, but after that, there is a whole new vulnerable human to consider. It's a different choice available to all women. Finally, most of the problems from abortion don't crop up fully until the girl actually has a family.

[rwsaunders]

It wasn't a choice to get pregnant, it was a choice to have sex, which there's nothing wrong with. A couple can be as safe as possible and things can still go wrong. Just because they chose to enjoy sex, they shouldnt have to bear that burden.

[liarsarestupid]

That "burden" you are talking about is a life! Should parents be allowed to eliminate those burdens if someone loses a job, or something else comes up? Shouldn't it be their choice whether their own child lives or dies, regardless of age? What if the child has attitude problems...they chose to have a baby, but they didn't choose to have a kid with a bad attitude, so they should have a choice in whether to keep him. Choices have consequences, and you don't always get another choice.

[liarsarestupid]

It would be nice if we could eliminate all so-called "burdens" in life, from work, to sickness, and so on. But we live in a cause and effect world, and sometimes actions we take produce unexpected results. That is why humans are so good at adaptation...because we have to be.

[rwsaunders]

It would be nice, and there are some we can't deal with. But there are some we can, and this is one of them.

Allowing abortions to be performed doesn't mean that every woman will rush out and have one. But it'll allow those who feel it'll be their best course of action to make the choice.

[liarsarestupid]

No, we can deal with all of our "burdens" the same way we do unwanted babies. If our children burden us, kill them. If our boss burdens us, kill him or her. If our landlord burdens us, kill him. As a friend once said, violence solves and causes every problem. But it doesn't make it right. Just because we CAN kill someone doesn't make it legitimate.

[rwsaunders]

You're suggesting that an early term abortion (say, before 16 weeks) is killing. I say you're wrong. Early in pregnancy, a fetus is hardly different from a tumor. The fact that it COULD develop into a baby is irrelevant. All those sperm men toss away COULD go fertilize an egg, but 99.999% of them don't. It's no different.

[liarsarestupid]

It is not a matter of "could." The fetus will develop fully and be born unless there is intervention. No sperm will ever develop into a baby. There is no need for anyone to prevent that. What makes an 8-week gestation baby any different from a one year old child?

[rwsaunders]

The fact that it's an 8-week gestation and NOT a fully formed baby. If it's terminated, it will not feel, it will not know. It has never perceived anything.

[liarsarestupid]

You sound authoritative. How do you know?

[rwsaunders]

I always research a topic before starting a debate ;)

[liarsarestupid]

By the way, my idea of what is "right" stems from what is fair, logical, and utilitarian. You cannot tell me that legality makes right...just look at the huge body of unjust, terrible laws...from drafts, to segregation, etc. Any entity that can be that wrong is not the standard we should live our lives by.

[rwsaunders]

Indeed, legality does not make right. Hell, my government works on the principle that many people together are smarter than one....

You do realize, though, that you're supporting what would be an unjust law? To refuse women the right to control their bodies and decide what's best for their future?

[liarsarestupid]

In any issue where it is ONLY their body and ONLY their future, I do believe they have full control and choice. Unfortunately, we are not alone in this world, and so the rights of others matter (thus the need for laws). I don't think they have the "right" to determine whether or not their baby even has a future.

[liarsarestupid]

I hope I haven't ended the discussion. I really would like to know how it is that someone can accept that a human embryo is any less alive, any less human, than you or I? Is current level of brain level a criteria? What about the coma patient who may come out of it? Though brain function is on hold, it may come in time. With the embryo, it WILL come with a little time. Can we now kill coma patients at will?

[rwsaunders]

Again with this argument! The fact that brain function could come in time does not mean it must be allowed to happen. If it doesn't, the fetus never misses anything.

[liarsarestupid]

So your entire argument is based SOLELY on level of development. I ask you, who are you to decide at what level a fetus first has value? How subjective! Just because an infant is not as fully developed, physically, mentally, or sensorily, does not make it LESS valuable than an adult! And again with the brain activity.

[sueezee]

liar: who are you to decide at what level a fetus first has value?

NOTHING is of value until somone MAKES it valuable.Diamonds are made of graphite..pencil lead!They didn't become valuable until someone said they were.My grandmothers china is valuable to me but anyone else would toss it. Children are made valuable by parents who love & guide them.

[liarsarestupid]

Ok, well, who are you to say that people can't determine when a fetus has value? That's just as bad, according to your definition of bad.

You have no value to me, so does that give me the right to kill you if I find you unintelligent, annoying, ugly, underdeveloped or short(not that I know for sure you are any of those things)? Absolutely not. Some things are intrinsically valuable. I can't kill you just because I don't value you. Amazingly enough, you do have value, no matter what I think.

[sueezee]

liarsare:You have no value to me, so does that give me the right to kill you You are comparing living being to embryos and fetuses. Thats not logical or debatable.

[liarsarestupid]

Women have the choice to control their own bodies for sure...but if there is another body inside of them, do they not have their own rights. Just because someone is dependent on you doesn't mean they don't have rights of their own! That is an absurd concept.

Women can decide to use birth control...even decide not to have sex with someone they don't want to have a child with.

[liarsarestupid]

Men can also decide not to have sex with someone they don't want to have a baby with - if you don't want to do the child support, don't have the sex.

I don't think it is fair that I had to register for the draft and possibly be sent to fight for something I don't agree with, and even die for something that is not my concern.

[sueezee]

liar:Women have the choice to control their own bodies for sure...but if there is another body inside of them, do they not have their own rights NO!!! Do you NOT know what Roe V Wade is about?

liar:is dependent on you doesn't mean they don't have rights of their own They have NO right! NONE. What are you trying to say? Your name is appropriate.

[liarsarestupid]

If you discriminated at a certain level (killing them!), you would go to jail. Even though they aren't like you. If someone were different from you in all of these ways, you still would not have a right to kill them.

On top of that, a newborn baby classifies for all of these 'un-human' characteristics. They are small, undeveloped, dependent, and require certain environs to thrive...

[liarsarestupid]

That is true lack of control over my own body! It's not fair, but that is the way it is. You don't see me fighting for the right to be removed from the draft register, do you? You want fair? Kill your unwanted baby, instead of giving it up for adoption, and then head to the front lines of Iraq. If you do that, I'll grant you the 'fairness' argument.

[sueezee]

liar: The only difference between you and I and an embryo, is our Size, Level of Development, Environment, and Degree of Dependency WRONG! The difference is in the laws. NOTHING you mentioned went into the decision of abortion laws....so it dosen't matter.

liar:An embryo at 4 weeks looks exactly like an embryo at that stage should look Wow, that was deep!

[sueezee]

liar: giving it up for adoption, 240,000 kids up for adoption TODAY! 250,000 in foster care who may be up for adoption in the near future. Throwing kids to the wayside in HOPES they MIGHT be adopted is rediculous! Love the kids more than you hate adoption!

liar:You don't see me fighting for the right to be removed from the draft register You have that CHOICE!!

[sueezee]

I said;"Love the kids more than you hate adoption I meant: love the kids more than you hate abortion

[liarsarestupid]

So you aren't a person until you reach self-awareness? Then, my good Peter Singer follower, we should be able to keep on killing the kids till they understand that they exist...somewhere between 12 and 24 months old AFTER birth. You have no reasonable argument for why birth makes you human...your argument for 'self-awareness' obviously doesn't make sense.

[sueezee]

Liar:You have no reasonable argument for why birth makes you human hahahaha.. It never said it was not human, you dumbass, non-reader!Birth makes you a human BEING. Is there a reading class specifically for pro-lifers? There SHOULD be.

[liarsarestupid]

Your insults don't make your case; they prove you have none! You must have really sucked in debate class, because the ad hominim (that's latin for 'against a human being') attack shows your weakness faster than anything else. Better to stay silent than go that route, especially when it is based on nothing.

You still haven't explained HOW birth makes something human...especially when the infant is just as incapable of doing anything itself as a fetus. I reply because I have hope you can think.

[liarsarestupid]

I've made my case for why a fetus is not categorically different from a newborn in any significant way which you can point to. Try making a case in response, or I'll have to accept that you hold your views based on prejudice and blind belief rather than coherent thought and intelligence. Make a case for why you have to be 'born' to be a human being with rights. Your distinction between human and human being, by the way, was week, irrelevant, and innaccurate.There is no such distinction on record

[sueezee]

LIAR:I've made my case for why a fetus is not categorically different from a newborn "Case"??? You stated an opinion, and not a good one, and not one thats the law and one that dosen't matter. SO what?

LIAR:Make a case for why you have to be 'born' to be a human being with rights It the law. Why does it piss you off so? Gop cry in your beer!

[liarsarestupid]

So your case for humanity is 'the law?' So why did we change the constitution to say that blacks were people? Why did we give women the vote? The law said they shouldn't get it until it was changed. The 'rightness' of it existed beyond the wrong laws, therefore, as in this case, you need a case beyond the law, as I have made, to support why pre-born beings don't have human rights. Don't give me the 'law' crap. It's not even law...it's a court case. Duh.

[sueezee]

liar:So your case for humanity is 'the law Fetuses are NOT in the realm of humanity!

liar:blacks were people irrelevant..

liar: you need a case beyond the law, as I have made, to support why pre-born beings don't have human rights becasue they aren't HUMAN BEINGS. read the constitution...it says HUMAN BEINGS..not humans, thats JUST a species of animal!

[sueezee]

LIAR:you still have no argument for why birth creates a 'human being YOu dumbass pro-lifers DO NOT know the difference in the the adjective "human" and the noun "human being," and you ignorantly give them both the same meaning. Holy christ, I love that you're so stupid.!

lair:if you believe that newborn infants also have no rights. If they are born they have righs.hahaha

[liarsarestupid]

By the way, when you say an argument I make is 'irrelevant,' intelligent people usually have a reason for saying so. To merely state that is evidence of your inability to engage in intelligent debate...without unsupported arguments and cursing and calling me names. I'm not impressed with your discussion.

[sueezee]

LIAR:you need a case beyond the law, as I have made, to support why pre-born beings don't have human rights I don't NEED a case for ANYthing. Fetuses being born, get a birth cert. which marks the first legal recognition of a PERSON's existence & life as a human being. It can be NO other way! If you can't comprehend that, you'll just have to live in a world that dosen't make sense to you.

[liarsarestupid]

Ok, human is also a noun, genius. You have nothing to fall back on but 'law,' which is often flawed, abused, and ignored (remember Hitler...he used the law to kill millions, as did Stalin). Frankly, if that's all you have to back up your claims, then you have no justification, and if the law is changed, you'll have to support anti-abortion views as strongly as you support abortion now. That's why valid arguments BEHIND the freaking laws is important, though I dont' expect you to understand.

[sueezee]

LIAR:Your distinction between human and human being, by the way, was week, irrelevant, and innaccurate. Prove it was innacurate. I'll be waiting......and waiting..............and waiting!

[sueezee]

LIAR: Your insults don't make your case They aren't supposed to. My valid comment DO.

LIAR:You must have really sucked in debate class, because the ad hominim Hahhaha stop copying me!!

LIAR:You still haven't explained HOW birth makes something human. How many god damned times are you going to repeat that question? It dosent make it human...it makes it a human BEING.hahaha

[sueezee]

LIAR:You still haven't explained HOW birth makes something human...especially when the infant is just as incapable of doing anything itself as a fetus Hahhaa, So YOU think capabilities make a fetus a human or not? That would mean its not human until its 2!

[sueezee]

LIAR: So you aren't a person until you reach self-awareness More shit reading.I never said that! No one is a person until they are BORN! "Persons" ( the word is stated in the constitution) have freedoms of religion, speech, assembly, and other basic freedoms. Since fetuses are physically incapable of believing, speaking, or assembling, they CANNOT have or exercise any constitutional rights!! good god!!

[liarsarestupid]

You exactly made my point. Newborn infants are also not able to believe, speak, or assemble, so by your definition of what gives you rights, you favor infanticide.

I'd like to see where in your copy of the constitution it specifies at what point or who qualifies as a human...except in regard to slaves. I hope you don't base your argument on that part of the constitution, but it's the only place any 'human' is not considered a full man.

You call me names, say I'm stupid, and make no argument

[sueezee]

LIAR: Newborn infants are also not able to believe, speak, or assemble, Now you're learning. Thats why they have NO rights!

LIAR:I'd like to see where in your copy of the constitution it specifies at what point or who qualifies as a human What? Are you kidding? You 're in here debating and dont know it? idiot.

LIAR:I hope you don't base your argument on that part of the constitution Still can't read huh liar? Its not MY argument. Its the law.

[liarsarestupid]

And wow, so you do believe in infanticide sueezee, if you believe that newborn infants also have no rights. Just wanted to be clear on where you stood. Now you are thinking consistently. To hold your views, only beings with rationale cabability, i.e. 3 or4 year olds, or older, have the right to live or be treated without physical hurt. You realize how scary that makes you. And besides the law, you still have no argument for why birth creates a 'human being.' Try giving me a real argument.

[sueezee]

liar:so you do believe in infanticide sueezee No, i detest the killing of any LIVING HUMAN BEINGS.

liar:if you believe that newborn infants also have no rights

Who in the hell said THAT! NOT me!Liar

liar:To hold your views, only beings with rationale cabability, i.e. 3 or4

only beings with rational capabilites?You are frickin lying again.I never said tat!I also understand you don't comprehend what you read, so I don't know if your dumb or a LIAR.maybe both. GOODBYE

[liarsarestupid]

Make a freaking argument for how birth transitions 'humans' into 'human beings!!!!!!!!!!!' That's what I've been trying to get you to describe...you keep stating it, but not explaining the basis for such an absurd concept. It's not listed in any law, constitution, or even blog. You're the only person stating it...so where do you get that. Give me a defense of your ONLY argument you've offered defending abortion. I've defended my arguments. Please attempt to do the same, hard as it will be.

[sueezee]

liar:And wow, so you do believe in infanticide sueezee Nope I don't like killing living human beings(thats what infantcide is) hahaha

LIAR:3 or4 year olds, or older, have the right to live or be treated without physical hurt Nope,. all human beings do. haha !

[liarsarestupid]

Sueezee, in response, you might say, well, other people value me, or the government values me, so that trumps your lack of value for me. But if no one values you, including the government, it still doesn't make it right to kill you. Hitler's government and the racist people under him didn't value the Jews. Didn't mean it was right to kill them. Being valued doesn't determine the value of some things. You are a scary person if you really believe that and live that way. Scary. End of story.

[sueezee]

liarsare:But if no one values you, including the government, it still doesn't make it right to kill you/Hitler's government and the racist people under him didn't value the Jews. Didn't mean it was right to kill them Are you comparing fetuses to living beings? That dosen't work.

[liarsarestupid]

Sueezee,

The only difference between you and I and an embryo, is our Size, Level of Development, Environment, and Degree of Dependency. If you can think of another way a child in utero is different (they look different, but children at every stage of development look different. An embryo at 4 weeks looks exactly like an embryo at that stage should look), then you are a very special person, or you are stretching it.

[liarsarestupid]

They have the exact same DNA as anyone else...they're not even 3% off like a chimp...they are exactly the same! Fully human.

If you discriminated against persons out of the womb based on any of these criteria (short people, developmentally stunted or disabled people, people who had to live indoors because of sun allergy, or people in iron lungs, and people who are dependent on others for their survival), you would be considered a prejudiced, judgmental person.

[liarsarestupid]

And you will argue that it is better for the child...that a broken home or not knowing your parents makes the life hard. Ask anyone with a difficult life if they wish they had been killed. Besides the suicidal people (many of whom had great families), they would rather have the chance to do what they could with a crappy life than to never have that chance. Who are we to take it away from them?

That's all I have to say. I'd love to hear your response to all of these thoughts!

Take care.

[sueezee]

liar:Ask anyone with a difficult life if they wish they had been killed That shows how ignorant you are. Human beings can't even comprehand their own non-exsistance! Its impossible(read some psychology)! Its like saying you cry w/ joy at not being killed in a car wreck yesterday! If we don't keep this fairly intelligent,...why bother?

[sueezee]

liar:They have the exact same DNA as anyone else...they're not even 3% off like a chimp...they are exactly the same! Fully human. You're right, but they are NOT human beiongs which allows them NO rights.

liar:If you discriminated against persons out of the womb based on any of these criteria Learn the legal difference between the living & breathing, and those living in a no mans land.

[sueezee]

liar: If you discriminated against persons out of the womb based on any of these criteria you would be considered a prejudiced, judgmental person. Fetuses/embryos AREN'T "persons;, they achieve personhood at birth

[liarsarestupid]

You still can't explain how 'birth' changes the baby into a human being. It is a human being before, after, and until death, regardless of whatever 'legal' argument you think I am ignorant of. This isn't a legal discussion. Abortion is legal. I'm merely arguing the ethical side, which I thought you were. But if your argument is weak enough you need the law to help, then consider this. In many states, it is a double homicide if you kill a mother who is pregnant.

[sueezee]

liar:You still can't explain how 'birth' changes the baby into a human being. the law make it happen. Ddi you think there was a magic pellet?

liar:It is a human being before, after, and until death,

 LOLOLOL I know dumbass.

liar: I'm merely arguing the ethical side Via WHOSE ethics? YOURS? Who the hell are YOU. The ethic police? YOur ethics aren't everyone elses! get out of yourself.

liar:But if your argument is weak enough you need the law to help and I WIN!

[sueezee]

liar: In many states, it is a double homicide if you kill a mother who is pregnant. Then don't kill a fetus w/o moms permission!

[sueezee]

LIAR:You still can't explain how 'birth' changes the baby into a human being Dumb anti-choicers ( who, on top of not being able to comprehend what they read, don't know the actual meaning of words, or parts of speech) don't know that the adjective "human" and the noun "human being," do NOT have the same meaning. Its a human in utero.. Human ONLY means the species...human being means a species that exsists in the realm of actual, living persons. Do I get paid for teaching these classes?

[liarsarestupid]

And as far as that argument is concerned, about the fetus never missing anything, it is true that any being that you killed while asleep would be in the same boat. Does lack of consciousness indicate a lack of personhood? I'd be afraid to go to sleep at night. Sure, I'd never know what happened, but that doesn't make it right, and to argue otherwise surely stems from guilt or selfishness.

[liarsarestupid]

Can I take your silence, rwsaunders, as a decision to agree with the evidence I have put forward?

[liarsarestupid]

I think that perhaps I can.

[liarsarestupid]

I am sorry if I offended you, rwsaunders. Please respond to the discussion...don't just leave because you can't prove your point! Have an open mind, and I will do the same.

[liarsarestupid]

Do you have any response to my question of how saying a fetus is not a person can be proved on any other basis than Size, level of development, environment, or dependency, all of which would affect any number of groups of people, adult and otherwise? I honestly want to know why you think that a fetus is a less valuable human life than yours, mine, or any short, less developed, or dependent person.

[liarsarestupid]

Ever come up with anything to defend your side?

[liarsarestupid]

Also, rwsaunders, in some cases, even people who aren't aborted never develop brain function. And no, I'm not just making a jab at you. I ask, should we submit IQ tests on people to determine what 'percent' human they are?

[liarsarestupid]

In fact, as far as brain activity is concerned, by 8 weeks, they have already developed the same neural response to pain as any baby outside the womb. So one cannot say that brain activity is a factor, any more than the baby's Size, Level of Development, Environment, or Degree of Dependency.

[liarsarestupid]

Don't tell me you've given up! I want to hear what you think of my recent thoughts and hear where you are coming from!

[rwsaunders]

You're proving my point. If they choose to have a child, then they must deal with any issues that come up. But if they're not prepared to have one, or are not in a position to deal with a pregnancy, then it shouldn't be forced on them. They should always have the choice early on because, as you say, they won't necessarily get a second one.

[liarsarestupid]

Yeah, but my point is that children whose parents cannot handle them should be adopted, not killed. I know you would agree with that. And it is no different for the child while it is simply in utero. And in fact, it is even easier for a newborn to be adopted than an older child. And if someone is not in a position to deal with a pregancy, they should not have sex, or they should have a permanent operation. Or they should put the child up for adoption.

[rwsaunders]

I couldnt disagree more. I think people should practice safer sex, but presenting the choice as "Be prepared to be pregnant or don't have sex" is asinine. Tell me, are you a man? I'd have to assume so, because can't imagine a woman suggesting such a thing.

[liarsarestupid]

Sex is an adult activity. I know that no matter how well I am protected, my wife and I could conceive at any point. That is a risk we are both willing to take. And if we weren't ready to raise the child, we would gladly work to find it a good adoptive home. Be prepared to be as mature as the act you are doing. That's what I'm suggesting.

[rwsaunders]

Are you saying then, that an abortion is an immature decision? I'll refer you back to the scenario of a girl still in high school, who has been careful and responsible with her sex life and yet got pregnant. She chooses to have an abortion. She is able to avoid ridicule, shame, and any number of other possible responses to carrying through a pregnancy, not to mention the pain of labor and birth. That's a good choice for her.

[liarsarestupid]

It's a lot easier to deal with others looking at you than not being able to look at yourself. Instead of natural birth, she is subjected to invasive surgury. And, I'm not saying that abortion might not be the easiest choice, but it's not about what is easy. What is easy is not always right, though we'd like to think that it is.

[rwsaunders]

"Right" is highly subjective, and usually based around the inability to be rational and/or separate emotion from logical decision-making. The problem here is you have an idea of what is "right", whereas I'm not trying to say it's right or wrong, and want to let individuals make their own choices.

[liarsarestupid]

The real problem is that we live in a world where there is no right or wrong, as you say...only what is legal or illegal. That is the root of the tragedies we see everyday. What takes more courage: to protect the innocent and stand for what is right and fair, or to stand by and do nothing?

[rwsaunders]

"what's right and fair." You're still saying that what you suggest is "right". You have no basis for this statement. Not only is "right" highly subjective, you've offered nothing to make me think that your definition should be taken as the correct one above others.

I mean, there are people who think spreading their religion through war is "right".

[liarsarestupid]

If the fetus is a child, then it is right not to kill it (I assume that you agree it is not right to kill 5 year olds). The only differences for the fetus are Size, Level of Development, Environment, and Degree of Dependency.

[rwsaunders]

That argument requires accepting that a fetus is a child. It is not. It can become one, but until a point, it is not. It is a fetus, an early stage of development. That's important to remember.

[liarsarestupid]

Given those four factors I just listed, are we to say that if anyone is lacking in an area, they can be killed? Can we kill toddlers because they are shorter than adults? Should we kill kids who are allergic to the sun and require a different environment? Should we kill those who are dependent and cannot survive on their own? Even toddlers can't survive on their own. The burden of proof is on you. Prove why preborn babies don't matter as much as others.

[rwsaunders]

It's not that they don't matter. It's that a fetus is not a fully developed person. I dont support late term abortions. For my part, I'm talking the point where a fetus is at most a couple inches long, unconscious, incapable of thought, most (or all) senses inactive, minimal brain activity. The fact that these things oculd develop should not be reason enough to ban abortion.

[liarsarestupid]

You say that a fetus is not a fully developed person, but neither is an 8-year old!! And a person in a coma MAY or MAY NOT recover their full brain activity. Just because they could recover it, according to you, does not mean that they have a right to live. They have to have it right now, or else whoever is taking care of them (mother, spouse, whoever), should pull the plug. Please offer a logical counter to my discussion of the 4 factors that make a fetus different.

[iseeyourpoint]

You say that "right" is subjective. So if it is right for me to key your car, I should? Or if "right" is legal, what about the cruel laws of a thousand civilizations, including the laws allowing slavery? There is an essential absolute right that we all agree with, even if only in action (I assume you agree that it is "wrong" to randomly kill people - unless it's "right" for you).

[liarsarestupid]

Sometimes, choices we make have unintentioned consequences that we cannot undo. When you choose to smoke, you aren't choosing to get cancer, but that's a consequence you have to deal with. And even when having the baby is not a choice, choosing to abort is not an option.

[beavoicefortruth]

Hope you enjoy this real-life video...