Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
Yeah that was what drew me to investigate more about this "strange woman with an unusual ancient". No one spoke like that. She had to know something I didn't and boy does she know a while lot. Am glad what the bleep introduced me to the Ram.
I would like everyone to notice the tactic used below. It is claimed that God exists, but when challenged, one simply retorts "Oh, it wouldn't matter to you, no one can convince you". This is clearly an act of evasion. By what right can you make that conclusion for me? By what right can you conclude that you shouldn't bother trying to prove what you believe to someone who disagrees with you? It's obvious that you are trying to avoid presenting the evidence that you don't have.
We have been given free will to chose our destiny. Either we create our heaven here on earth, or we create hell, by our own actions. We have been given the gift of knowing right from wrong, and an innate disposition for the love of perfection, and therefore an innate disposition to love the Infinitely Perfect. With all the blessings we've been given as humans, how can we think about returning the favor in a way that would only harm us?
If God represents that which is the highest of good, then man by definition can never reach that ideal and is always inferior to God. Not only is this a degrading and unfounded claim, it means we essentially are condemned to "sin". So it is actually impossible for us not to sin
What she means is that its impossible for us to sin at all. Such a great entity would not care who cursed, stole the cookie etc. In the grand scope of the universe it would not nitpick who did what. We are arrogant to think that a god would be angry, upset over what these carbon life-forms are up to, given their faculties.
Its like us humans killing an ant for catching a scent and going to the "wrong" anthill
...Meanwhile that is all the God of the Bible and the Koran is doing page after page.
@CognosSquare that's because He cares about His creation while you don't care about the ant because it is not your creation plus simply put He asks us to follow His guidance if you do, you get heaven if you don't, you get hell it is a simple game I think He put rules and He will respect His own rules if the ant suffers in hell, He won't care anymore, cause the ant chose to be in hell by not following the rules.
@mustno3 I agree with you. The God of the Koran or Bible does seem to care this much about what we say, do and think. Although I dont think he could put an ant in hell and forget about him because of just a few things it did or did not do. Afterall he is a merciful and loving God. And no such creature could place a living being in eternal torture and forget about it.
But if he really did care that much his actions makes little or sense in the texts or in the real world.
Of course He is merciful, and in many places in the Quran or the Bible He says it clearly that not all sinners will spend the eternity in Hell. Those who will receive an eternal punishment are those whom He knows beforehand that every atom in them refuses to believe in Him and to obey and give Him the respect He deserves as their creator
Anyone who has the slightest belief in God, even in the deepest point in his heart, will eventually end up in some of the lower levels of heaven
@mustno3 An entity who punishes or rewards his subjugates, not by their actions and deeds, but by the mere fact if they believe in a particular story about 1 God among thousands written in a language a minority can understand or read. And the news of even his name has not yet penetrated large parts of the world. And this is supposed to be their only salvation? With billions of children being born and dying before they could have a chance to know. Im sorry but that would not be a merciful Entity
The time spent in hell by the sinners is obviously for their bad deeds, so yes, the deeds are part of the punishment
For your second point : God knows what's on my mind and what's in my heart, He created me and He can hear the deepest and most silent thought I whisper to myself. So He knows the degree of honesty of my belief or of my disbelief
So, only those who truly, and with full consciousness of their decision, chose to reject Him, are the ones who will be eternally punished.
@mustno3 Where is it said in the Quran or the Bible that our punishment for disbelief is conditional on whether we are "sincere" or not? In surah 4, verse 48, it's made pretty clear that intent is not part of the equation-action is all.
many verses I found in the quran mentioning sincerity in belief. so I recommend that you google "search the truth" and go to the first link, there you can search the word "sincer" in the english translation ...
second, there is a famous saying from the prophet, mentioning the "niyya" (the intention in our deeds) which alone qualifies our deeds
third, verse 4:48 is mainly targeted towards polytheists...
@mustno3 It doesn't matter who it's directed towards, the point is that the only unforgivable sin is placing gods next to the Islamic god. Sincerity is not in the equation, only action. No where in the Quran does it say that it's ok to deny god if one does so sincerely.
It's fine for you to believe that asinine gobbledygook, but the burden of proof would be on you to prove that God exists but no other god does.
I don't think the quran mentions such a situation explicitly, i.e. if you disbelieve sincerely you will be ok with God. And It's strange that in the whole book you are only looking for (and may believe only in) such a verse.
But that is called personal "Ijtihad" on my part based on my knowledge of my religion. We muslims know that our religion cannot be irrational as our Prophet taught us in a few hadiths, but what you said about God's injustice was plain irrational in islam.
@mustno3 But what is the standard of justice here? It is unjust to say a person will go to hell for an eternity simply for placing other gods next to the god of Islam, but a murderer or a rapist can be forgiven.
Nice try, but straw man tactics won't work- I know the Quran well, and I'm not just looking for a single verse.
So what happens if Islam is irrational? Does this become a contradiction? In my experience, contradictions do not exist, only false premises do, and in this case, the premise
well .. "placing other gods next to God" seems to be more serious than killing. Simply because the guy who was murdered will be given his justice back and will be avenged from his killer when both meet in front of their Creator (The Judge) on the day of judgement.
Disrespecting the Creator and denying Him is more serious simply cause God is superior to men, and the punishment will be given according to the ranks of God and his creation, i.e. the man.
@mustno3 If it's impossible for you to reason with me about God then you just shown us why its unjust. It means that reason is out of the equation. There is no such thing as a special type of reason that is something one can't impart on another.
Now, stop stonewalling-we both know this is just a childish evasion tactic. Prove to me that your God exists but no other Gods do. It's that simple. Whether you think I will believe it or not (which is EXTREMELY judgmental) should be irrelevant.
I never said it was impossible. Let's be realistic ... there have been thousands of such discussions between theists and atheists over the history, and most didn't lead to anything but time-wasting useless arguing. All of the arguments which I will bring up for the existence of God have already been discussed in extensive detail by scholars in such public and private discussions which you will find on YT. I am not gonna bring anything new.
I'm afraid it has already been discussed, just look for "Oneness of God".
I kindly ask you to make some online research if you feel honest in your quest, arguing on YT will just waste your time. Every argument I would use is already out there. Just a few words in google and you will find it.
However, if you have a specific question you want to ask a muslim directly, I will be more than glad to answer it, so why don't you give me your questions instead of insulting me :)
@mustno3 Ok, there are several videos that fit that description, and instead of being lazy and just shift the responsibility to others, answer it yourself. After all, how do I know YOU know this to be true and not just assume others know what they are talking about?
@mustno3 But let me indeed ask you a question- why is it that alcohol is completely banned from consumption, even though it has been proven that moderate drinking (as defined by 1-3 drinks a day) is associated with the lowest mortality rates in alcohol studies?
from the islamic point of view, alcohol is forbidden because its harm is more than its benefit (check verse2:219). So the benefit of Alcohol is not denied in islam but its harm is more. As an example, the World Health Organization reported that 2 million die every year of alcohol abuse
I personally think that one harm of alcohol is its addiction. Many people feel safe and strong in front of alcohol but many r weak and can easily become addicted
@mustno3 Like I said, if you don't insult me, I won't insult you. Correction, MOST people do not develop an addiction, and do explain the apparent contradiction with 5:90-1? And do indeed answer my challenge, because so far every source regarding why there is one god have all referenced the Quran. Fail. How about some logic?
@mustno3 Wow, what a clumsy way to derail a conversation. And its not like you have any motivation to do so, right?
Well, let's see. You said you know the arguments I will bring up, as if I'm like all atheists, just some interchangeable part. Imagine if I told you that I know what arguments you will bring up because I listened to alot of Muslims and, you know, youre just like any other Muslim without any imaginative difference relevant to this discussion
I myself said that all arguments I would bring up are very well known so calling that an insult won't work. So you either find me a REAL insult I have put in any of my previous comments which are all posted here for the world to see, like e.g. you calling me "coward" and "lazy", or otherwise this discussion will go nowhere, as you failed to recognize an obvious mistake and disrespect that you have made. These are the rules of a discussion I would accept to continue.
As for 5:90 I do not think it contradicts with the previous verse I have shown you, cause here He mentions intoxicants, which more general than just alcohol, and it involves, smoking, marijuana, hard drugs etc, and these I think that they are 100% harmful.
for the oneness of God from a not so islamic point of view can be found here (youtube.com/watch?v=2q_rCkzHswQ). I don't agree with him when he says atheists are just few in the world. But I think he mentions some standard argument for the oneness of God. "if there are many, whose will is gonna prevail"
@mustno3 That link isn't working for me, but to comment on your point- that's a bit of a straw man. Who is to say how gods interact with each other, if they are indeed many as opposed to one? You could have, for example, a god controlling a specific component of reality. Or, as in Hinduism, the concept of singular and plural doesn't apply to God (I gather that is somewhat the case in Christianity but I digress).
@mustno3@mustno3 Too bad, I consider it an insult, or does my opinion in this not matter? You can rationalize it however you want to, and I can rationalize what I say however I want to, and we can both end up saying "I didn't insult anybody". So rather than saying what you consider to be an insult and what you don't, why don't you stop stonewalling and continue the conversation?
You either recognize your insult and your mistake and stop evading it
or this is the end of the discussion
I am open to respectful and civilized discussions, I have even ignored your insults in the beginning, but when I see that you are not even ready to accept that you have insulted me while I was respectful, and even more, that you now claim that I have insulted you while anyone who reads my comments will see I didn't, then I have to stop here
@mustno3 I'm not childish, so I will recognize and apologize for my mistake. But for the sake of reciprocity, I encourage you to recognize your insult and your mistake. I made a point that either one of us can rationalize our remarks and say they weren't in fact insults, but it would still be hypocritical to unilaterally claim the moral high ground.
Now, just out of curiosity, do explain how you know that "anyone" who reads this comments will agree with you.
Thank you for allowing this discussion to go on. As from my side, if you felt that my sentence was insulting, than I am also sorry for that.
If you insist that I answer your question about how I know that anyone who reads my comments will agree with me, I will do, but I really prefer to go on with our real discussion.
I find it interesting how you do mention marijuana in that list of yours, even though A) no long term effects have been noted, and B) Serves a medical purpose. In fact, it is interesting that Muhammad mentions intoxicants at all, when it is the dose that is the poison, not the substance itself. In its proper use and dosage, almost none of the intoxicants actually cause harm, but that is beside the point- he mentioned just intoxicants, so there is no reason why...
@mustno3 ... Aspirin, coffee, and anesthesia shouldn't be thrown in with the rest.
You are going in with your interpretation, which in my opinion, makes the Quran meaningless, because we can subjugate its meaning to our whims, wishes, and thoughts. Not that that would be terrible since we seem to handle ourselves just fine, but it does render the "guide for humanity" kind of useless.
This may be said to be true for most known poisons. It is always the dose that matters. If one takes few nanograms of a deadly poison one might not feel it at all. If one takes 50mg of nicotine it will be a respiratory failure + general paralysis.
So, stil, an intoxicant is an intoxicant no matter the dose. Check this link which sites few poisonous effects of nicotine: medicinenet(dot)com/nicotine/page2.htm
@mustno3 It doesn't seem like you grasped what I meant by the dosage mattering. My point is that if you ban all intoxicants from consumption, regardless of the dosage, then what principle is left to say "We should ban tobacco and cocaine, but not anesthesia and coffee"?
Now comes the role of interpretation. It is up to man to figure out which intoxicants ought to be 100% avoided and which ones should still be allowed for whichever reason it may.
In islam if there is a clear legitimate reason (medical or other) for using alcohol or Marijuana then it has to be used.
It is not as rigid as you think it is. Quran presents the big guidelines, and relies on our intelligence to work out the details.
The Quran should not be seen as saying : "this is how you should do, because you cannot think for yourself". We muslims see the quran as rather saying : "think about it ... this is the conclusion that you will come to"
About interpretations, the verse was rather simple and clear:"intoxicants are bad, avoid them so you may prosper"
One is free to analyze the verse and interpret it, but the main message remains clear and doesn't necessarily need further interpretations.
@mustno3 I guess it would be alot simpler of a message if the Quran says "Come to your conclusions logically", and have that be the end of it. What's the point of listing out all these rules and regulations if people will follow them anyway? If we have intelligence, we don't need guidelines. We don't need both.
And I think youre still missing the point regarding intoxicants, but if the Quran is really saying "Do the best thing for you", then its like when Matthew Brodrick in Godzilla said...
Because humans are intelligent, they usually do not agree on many things. Some say that smoking does not cause cancer (the big companies) some say that it does. Some say that Marijuana should be legalized, some say it shouldn't. So you see that we do not always agree on the same conclusion because there is a lot of interference with our reasoning, e.g. economic profit, personal preferences etc that do not always agree with the general goal of well being of the society.
@mustno3 So youre saying that human beings are intelligent and therefore they come to different conclusions? That's a little contradictory, don't you think? And what makes the Quran "neutral"?
And while there is much wrong in the world, it is not for the superficial reasons you explained.
...So why would god send someone to hell for not believing in him when he never gave any evidence that he and only he existed in a divine realm? Seems a little unjust. Actually a lot unjust
He gave evidence, many have accepted it already and many have not. And He said in His last evidence that it will be the last one before the end of time. There were many before it, but the sequence of messages and evidences had to stop at some point before the end. The last evidence being the Quran, which is the only one that survived. The Quran is a linguistic miracle. (Check the video "Brilliance Of The Book - Nouman Ali Khan")
@mustno3 I'm not sure I follow, although I heard that claim before. Please do explain what you mean when you say "linguistic miracle". I personally only associate that which requires the suspension of natural order to be a miracle, not the continuation of it. Does this fulfill that role?
Nouman Ali Khan is a linguistic scholar who knows this issue much much better than me
what I can say right now is that, it is documented that the pagan arabs who lived back then and who excelled in their language, testified that the language of the quran is far more sophisticated than anything they know, and even though they were challenged to produce something similar, until this day no one could produce the same
@mustno3 And what is the definition of "sophisticated" here? And given how the Muslims took over the Arabian Penninsula, and that history is usually written by the winners, are these accounts accurate?
Keep in mid as well that this "miracle" (which is NOT a suspension of natural order even if it were true) is something only Arabic speakers could understand
To understand what I meant by sophisticated you will have to watch the video where examples are given (500 characters are not enough).
The difference with the miracle of the Quran is that it can be checked today, you don't have to rely solely on history books.
About it being Arabic it had to come in one language anyway. And the most pure language (no regional variations or mixture with other languages) was arabic. Plus humans are intelligent and can learn arabic.
@mustno3 Well, a true miracle could involve sending multiple Qurans around the world, in different languages, written verbatim of each other. Not only would that be a miracle, but also much easier and less ethnocentric. It's a lot harder to learn a language than said. But I digress. Besides, to you want everyone to learn Arabic JUST to find out if the Quran is miraculous? That seems to be asking too much.
Following your logic, I think it would have been much easier to make everyone speak the same language ...
I think if one just wants to read the quran, then he will be able to find it translated to a language he can speak. If one wants to know about its linguistic miracle, then he can ask for the testimony of many people who speak his language and who have learned arabic and found the linguistic superiority of the Quran.
@mustno3 Translated, yes, but are you telling me that would reveal to you the so-called "linguistic miracle"?
So you are telling me I should rely on the testimony of others? Isn't that a little fallacious? If that's so, should I take into account my coptic Christian friend from college that the Quran is incoherent and nonsensical?
Personally I find it quite telling that even though that book had a lot of enemies through history, no one could meet its open challenge to reproduce a similar text until today.
Knowing the risks involved, and knowing that the time for true visual miracles is gone, I personally think that if one desperately needs a miracle, he's gonna have to make the effort of learning, cause, this is the last miracle left.
@mustno3 Well, actually, there have been people who produced similar texts:
suralikeit(dot)(com)
And I do wonder, why is the time for visual miracles is gone? Following your logic, I should also learn Sanskrit to read the Ummayads, or Farsi for Baha'i or Zoroastrian faiths. Tell me, why should one single out Islam?
Ummayads are not claiming to be a linguistic miracle.
As for the suralikeit, I know about it, the guy who wrote it, is an arab christian called "Anis shorosh". he has been convicted some time ago for something which I don't remember now.
I can only tell you that if you know a little arabic and read those suras of him you will really laugh at the way he tries in an obvious way to mimic the construction of the quranic text while making obvious grammatic errors.
I still think it is a suspension of natural order cause it is a language that no human being can produce.
But if you do not like it as an evidence, than you still can find evidence of God by observing the world around you. If you are honest enough in your quest you will see God in His creation. Or you can also pray to Him and ask Him honestly to show His evidence to YOU, and by God's will He will do, just keep insisting in your prayer.
@mustno3 Yea, I listened to him, and it didn't seem too special.
And if you want to know what pushed me along in my path to atheism, part of it was praying honestly to God and asking him to show the evidence of his existence, and nothing happened. Several times did nothing happen.
"Observing the world" is a pretty vague way of going about looking for evidence. Do elaborate.
I also think that an "audible miracle" is the only kind of miracle that 1-can survive time and 2- can be reproduced by normal people without the need for prophets to do the miracle (like it is the case with visual miracles). Every time you hear it you feel the miracle.
@mustno3 Sorry, you lost me on the feeling part. Remember, we Objectivists dislike the concept of the superiority of the "heart" of the mind. I don't bother myself with subjective games like that
For your prayers ... just keep on praying. He will answer as soon you do that TRULY SINCERE prayer where He sees that you are really looking for Him, and not just trying to prove to yourself that He doesn't answer prayers.
And do not expect the answer to be a direct intervention by God Himself just for you to tell you He's here. It will come in an unexpected way. You will have to recognize it.
I am sure you will be answered. Just keep insisting in sincere prayers.
@mustno3 And how are you sure? Do explain what rational principle there is that an omniscient, omnipotent god does not answer someone's prayers?
Look, you are being insulting again. You behave as though it really wasn't a painful experience to become an atheist after believing in a god for my entire life. Trust me, I DESPERATELY wanted there to be a god who would put my doubts to rest. I prayed for weeks, and no answer. Absolutely nothing
Sorry, I didn't know you were theist before. I am still sure though, that you will be answered. Please be patient and continue your search. You will be in a higher category than other theists the longer is your search and the steadier is your will.
@mustno3 I'll give you a hint, although this is probably going to become less true in the future. If you are talking to an atheist, most likely you are talking to a former theist.
And tell me, what rational principle is there for an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent God to ignore someone? I can't name any, can you?
In islam we know that He hears every single prayer. He does never ignore. The answer may be delayed that's all. and that can be for several reasons. Personally, I think that life is quite complicated. and certain events may better happen at certain moments in our lives. And since He is the designer of that whole complexity, He might know of a better moment.
@mustno3 Oh, so if you dont explicitly say that you reject the mind it means you don't? Makes perfect sense (not really)
The agnostic viewpoint poses as fair, impartial, and balanced. See how many fallacies you can find in it. Here are a few obvious ones: First, the agnostic allows the arbitrary into the realm of human cognition. He treats arbitrary claims as ideas proper to consider, discuss, evaluate—and then he regretfully says, “I don’t know,” instead of dismissing the arbitrary out of hand.
@mustno3 Second, the onus-of-proof issue: the agnostic demands proof of a negative in a context where there is no evidence for the positive. “It’s up to you,” he says, “to prove that the fourth moon of Jupiter did not cause your sex life and that it was not a result of your previous incarnation as the Pharaoh of Egypt.” Third, the agnostic says, “Maybe these things will one day be proved.” In other words, he asserts possibilities or hypotheses with no jot of evidential basis.
@mustno3 Quite frankly, that wouldn't be too bad of a thing, because from where I'm sitting, there is no proof that a God exists, and since no one can demand one to prove, know, or believe in a negative, I can't be anything BUT an atheist.
@mustno3 That's why I find it disgusting how you can just say "Oh you weren't sincere enough in your prayers".
And yes, my friend so far is correct. I can barely understand my english translation. I have never seen anything so attention deficit as this. I'm an English minor, and I would fail an essay written this way.
Since I really need to finish this paper ... ^^! .... it is a question of survival for me ... ^^ I would ask you to please let us continue this interesting exchange in a later time. I would also like to use PM's instead of comments.
cause I am getting lost finding the latest one in the list and I am afraid I am missing some. So I'll be back to answer your latest questions in a pm soon.
Although humans are intelligent, they have different opinions and different interests, and I think it's good to have a neutral third party "manual" or guideline that may be seen as a referee and a reminder of the general path to follow to "general" well being. Indeed in many verses of the quran you will find it saying "this book is a reminder .."
So the Quran or the message comes as a unifying common ground to a mosaic of intelligent-human opinions.
also from an islamic point of view, the quran or message is a witness for God that at some point in history He did try to hint humans in their quest of well-being so that on the day of judgment we do not claim He didn't, i.e. He left us out to our greed, arrogance, ignorance, and all the illnesses of the human soul that are causing so much wrong in the world today and in our daily life.
On that day He will say "I warned you so blame yourself"
but what I cannot ignore is that the person I discuss with, in addition to insulting me, starts to accuse me of insulting him, while anyone who reads my comments will see that nowhere I have used an insulting word.
This I cannot accept, and anyone with some dignity and some sense of fairness will not accept.
Also I know most of the arguments you will bring up cause I watched a lot of such discussions between muslims and renowned atheists on YT.
I suggest that you look for those videos, everything I might say is already there. That is if you are interested in the arguments rather than in the arguing, in which I am not interested.
That being said, if you still have questions you would like to ask a muslim, I'll be happy.
@mustno3 ...that is false is the idea that Islam is purely rational and the statement that supported rationality was not done out of pure rhetoric-keep in mind almost everyone "appeals" to rationality.
And again, you avoided my challenge- Prove that God exists, but no other alternative does.
If you think it is not rational that's fine with me ....
Again, proving God to you doesn't mean anything .. just think about it. No one can prove God to you. You alone can. Cause if you predisposed your thinking to refusing something, nothing on earth will convince you, even if you see God with your own eyes. You would think it is a hallucination. There is no limit to doubt.
So just think for yourself .. it's your job. If you can't convince yourself, no one can.
and we know that God forbade injustice on Himself, as He says in verse 3:108. And it is plain injustice to punish someone who REALLY did not know or did not have the ABILITY TO KNOW cause as you said he might live in some part of the world where they did not hear about God. But this is difficult nowadays, and you heard about God ... so no such an excuse in your case, and if you succeed in convincing yourself that you are sincere in your disbelief then good for you.
that being said I really think that it is very difficult for someone to really know the degree of one's own sincerity in something. It needs a really deep long sincere look inside one's heart to discover one's true intention ..!!
now I guess the guy in the amazon who never heard about any religion whatsoever or even a God, and could not arrive to the existence of God by his own thinking, of course that guy won't have any problem in proving or claiming his sincerity in disbelief
@mustno3 Your pascal's wager is invalid. More than one paradigm is possible. You and I can both be wrong-Christianity is the true way, and we will both go to hell
man she has bad allergies!!!
Hemmersfield1 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
DaneStolthed 10 months ago
Yeah that was what drew me to investigate more about this "strange woman with an unusual ancient". No one spoke like that. She had to know something I didn't and boy does she know a while lot. Am glad what the bleep introduced me to the Ram.
manchise 11 months ago
She's flying high alright and what an ego. I've never met a being with such an ego before.
1984tenpoundhole 11 months ago
Yes,as the units of carbons,humans can never sin against God,just like the animals.
But our souls make us responsible
In the end I made a comment on this vid x)
HighFlyingDutchman 11 months ago
Ya okay let me say this.
Religion is crap.
But if you mess with a little child, especially sexually, you are betraying God him/herself whatever words cannot do anything but point to truth.
THE UNIVERSE IS ONE, THIS IS PROVEN PHYSICS.
lovedalord88 1 year ago
I would like everyone to notice the tactic used below. It is claimed that God exists, but when challenged, one simply retorts "Oh, it wouldn't matter to you, no one can convince you". This is clearly an act of evasion. By what right can you make that conclusion for me? By what right can you conclude that you shouldn't bother trying to prove what you believe to someone who disagrees with you? It's obvious that you are trying to avoid presenting the evidence that you don't have.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
This was quite good, interesting. Did you make it i.e. put together several clips together?
TheMuslimahSouljette 1 year ago
We have been given free will to chose our destiny. Either we create our heaven here on earth, or we create hell, by our own actions. We have been given the gift of knowing right from wrong, and an innate disposition for the love of perfection, and therefore an innate disposition to love the Infinitely Perfect. With all the blessings we've been given as humans, how can we think about returning the favor in a way that would only harm us?
contentedself 1 year ago
If God represents that which is the highest of good, then man by definition can never reach that ideal and is always inferior to God. Not only is this a degrading and unfounded claim, it means we essentially are condemned to "sin". So it is actually impossible for us not to sin
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
What she means is that its impossible for us to sin at all. Such a great entity would not care who cursed, stole the cookie etc. In the grand scope of the universe it would not nitpick who did what. We are arrogant to think that a god would be angry, upset over what these carbon life-forms are up to, given their faculties.
Its like us humans killing an ant for catching a scent and going to the "wrong" anthill
...Meanwhile that is all the God of the Bible and the Koran is doing page after page.
CognosSquare 1 year ago
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 I agree with you. The God of the Koran or Bible does seem to care this much about what we say, do and think. Although I dont think he could put an ant in hell and forget about him because of just a few things it did or did not do. Afterall he is a merciful and loving God. And no such creature could place a living being in eternal torture and forget about it.
But if he really did care that much his actions makes little or sense in the texts or in the real world.
CognosSquare 1 year ago
@CognosSquare
Of course He is merciful, and in many places in the Quran or the Bible He says it clearly that not all sinners will spend the eternity in Hell. Those who will receive an eternal punishment are those whom He knows beforehand that every atom in them refuses to believe in Him and to obey and give Him the respect He deserves as their creator
Anyone who has the slightest belief in God, even in the deepest point in his heart, will eventually end up in some of the lower levels of heaven
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 An entity who punishes or rewards his subjugates, not by their actions and deeds, but by the mere fact if they believe in a particular story about 1 God among thousands written in a language a minority can understand or read. And the news of even his name has not yet penetrated large parts of the world. And this is supposed to be their only salvation? With billions of children being born and dying before they could have a chance to know. Im sorry but that would not be a merciful Entity
CognosSquare 1 year ago
@CognosSquare
The time spent in hell by the sinners is obviously for their bad deeds, so yes, the deeds are part of the punishment
For your second point : God knows what's on my mind and what's in my heart, He created me and He can hear the deepest and most silent thought I whisper to myself. So He knows the degree of honesty of my belief or of my disbelief
So, only those who truly, and with full consciousness of their decision, chose to reject Him, are the ones who will be eternally punished.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Where is it said in the Quran or the Bible that our punishment for disbelief is conditional on whether we are "sincere" or not? In surah 4, verse 48, it's made pretty clear that intent is not part of the equation-action is all.
And where is the justice in this?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
many verses I found in the quran mentioning sincerity in belief. so I recommend that you google "search the truth" and go to the first link, there you can search the word "sincer" in the english translation ...
second, there is a famous saying from the prophet, mentioning the "niyya" (the intention in our deeds) which alone qualifies our deeds
third, verse 4:48 is mainly targeted towards polytheists...
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 It doesn't matter who it's directed towards, the point is that the only unforgivable sin is placing gods next to the Islamic god. Sincerity is not in the equation, only action. No where in the Quran does it say that it's ok to deny god if one does so sincerely.
It's fine for you to believe that asinine gobbledygook, but the burden of proof would be on you to prove that God exists but no other god does.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I don't think the quran mentions such a situation explicitly, i.e. if you disbelieve sincerely you will be ok with God. And It's strange that in the whole book you are only looking for (and may believe only in) such a verse.
But that is called personal "Ijtihad" on my part based on my knowledge of my religion. We muslims know that our religion cannot be irrational as our Prophet taught us in a few hadiths, but what you said about God's injustice was plain irrational in islam.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 But what is the standard of justice here? It is unjust to say a person will go to hell for an eternity simply for placing other gods next to the god of Islam, but a murderer or a rapist can be forgiven.
Nice try, but straw man tactics won't work- I know the Quran well, and I'm not just looking for a single verse.
So what happens if Islam is irrational? Does this become a contradiction? In my experience, contradictions do not exist, only false premises do, and in this case, the premise
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
well .. "placing other gods next to God" seems to be more serious than killing. Simply because the guy who was murdered will be given his justice back and will be avenged from his killer when both meet in front of their Creator (The Judge) on the day of judgement.
Disrespecting the Creator and denying Him is more serious simply cause God is superior to men, and the punishment will be given according to the ranks of God and his creation, i.e. the man.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 If it's impossible for you to reason with me about God then you just shown us why its unjust. It means that reason is out of the equation. There is no such thing as a special type of reason that is something one can't impart on another.
Now, stop stonewalling-we both know this is just a childish evasion tactic. Prove to me that your God exists but no other Gods do. It's that simple. Whether you think I will believe it or not (which is EXTREMELY judgmental) should be irrelevant.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I never said it was impossible. Let's be realistic ... there have been thousands of such discussions between theists and atheists over the history, and most didn't lead to anything but time-wasting useless arguing. All of the arguments which I will bring up for the existence of God have already been discussed in extensive detail by scholars in such public and private discussions which you will find on YT. I am not gonna bring anything new.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Oh, I had no idea all atheists were interchangeable! Again, you are being extremely judgmental, not to mention insulting and cowardly.
Keep in mind that never has there been an argument explaining that God exists but no other God does. So why don't you make history and answer it?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
:)
I'm afraid it has already been discussed, just look for "Oneness of God".
I kindly ask you to make some online research if you feel honest in your quest, arguing on YT will just waste your time. Every argument I would use is already out there. Just a few words in google and you will find it.
However, if you have a specific question you want to ask a muslim directly, I will be more than glad to answer it, so why don't you give me your questions instead of insulting me :)
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Ok, there are several videos that fit that description, and instead of being lazy and just shift the responsibility to others, answer it yourself. After all, how do I know YOU know this to be true and not just assume others know what they are talking about?
PS If you don't insult me, I won't insult you
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 But let me indeed ask you a question- why is it that alcohol is completely banned from consumption, even though it has been proven that moderate drinking (as defined by 1-3 drinks a day) is associated with the lowest mortality rates in alcohol studies?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
from the islamic point of view, alcohol is forbidden because its harm is more than its benefit (check verse2:219). So the benefit of Alcohol is not denied in islam but its harm is more. As an example, the World Health Organization reported that 2 million die every year of alcohol abuse
I personally think that one harm of alcohol is its addiction. Many people feel safe and strong in front of alcohol but many r weak and can easily become addicted
P.S: "lazy", "coward" u didn't mean me I hope ;)
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Like I said, if you don't insult me, I won't insult you. Correction, MOST people do not develop an addiction, and do explain the apparent contradiction with 5:90-1? And do indeed answer my challenge, because so far every source regarding why there is one god have all referenced the Quran. Fail. How about some logic?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
show me where I have insulted you first
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Wow, what a clumsy way to derail a conversation. And its not like you have any motivation to do so, right?
Well, let's see. You said you know the arguments I will bring up, as if I'm like all atheists, just some interchangeable part. Imagine if I told you that I know what arguments you will bring up because I listened to alot of Muslims and, you know, youre just like any other Muslim without any imaginative difference relevant to this discussion
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I myself said that all arguments I would bring up are very well known so calling that an insult won't work. So you either find me a REAL insult I have put in any of my previous comments which are all posted here for the world to see, like e.g. you calling me "coward" and "lazy", or otherwise this discussion will go nowhere, as you failed to recognize an obvious mistake and disrespect that you have made. These are the rules of a discussion I would accept to continue.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
As for 5:90 I do not think it contradicts with the previous verse I have shown you, cause here He mentions intoxicants, which more general than just alcohol, and it involves, smoking, marijuana, hard drugs etc, and these I think that they are 100% harmful.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
for the oneness of God from a not so islamic point of view can be found here (youtube.com/watch?v=2q_rCkzHswQ). I don't agree with him when he says atheists are just few in the world. But I think he mentions some standard argument for the oneness of God. "if there are many, whose will is gonna prevail"
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 That link isn't working for me, but to comment on your point- that's a bit of a straw man. Who is to say how gods interact with each other, if they are indeed many as opposed to one? You could have, for example, a god controlling a specific component of reality. Or, as in Hinduism, the concept of singular and plural doesn't apply to God (I gather that is somewhat the case in Christianity but I digress).
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 @mustno3 Too bad, I consider it an insult, or does my opinion in this not matter? You can rationalize it however you want to, and I can rationalize what I say however I want to, and we can both end up saying "I didn't insult anybody". So rather than saying what you consider to be an insult and what you don't, why don't you stop stonewalling and continue the conversation?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
The rules are clear :
You either recognize your insult and your mistake and stop evading it
or this is the end of the discussion
I am open to respectful and civilized discussions, I have even ignored your insults in the beginning, but when I see that you are not even ready to accept that you have insulted me while I was respectful, and even more, that you now claim that I have insulted you while anyone who reads my comments will see I didn't, then I have to stop here
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 I'm not childish, so I will recognize and apologize for my mistake. But for the sake of reciprocity, I encourage you to recognize your insult and your mistake. I made a point that either one of us can rationalize our remarks and say they weren't in fact insults, but it would still be hypocritical to unilaterally claim the moral high ground.
Now, just out of curiosity, do explain how you know that "anyone" who reads this comments will agree with you.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Thank you for allowing this discussion to go on. As from my side, if you felt that my sentence was insulting, than I am also sorry for that.
If you insist that I answer your question about how I know that anyone who reads my comments will agree with me, I will do, but I really prefer to go on with our real discussion.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Agreed. Next point.
I find it interesting how you do mention marijuana in that list of yours, even though A) no long term effects have been noted, and B) Serves a medical purpose. In fact, it is interesting that Muhammad mentions intoxicants at all, when it is the dose that is the poison, not the substance itself. In its proper use and dosage, almost none of the intoxicants actually cause harm, but that is beside the point- he mentioned just intoxicants, so there is no reason why...
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 ... Aspirin, coffee, and anesthesia shouldn't be thrown in with the rest.
You are going in with your interpretation, which in my opinion, makes the Quran meaningless, because we can subjugate its meaning to our whims, wishes, and thoughts. Not that that would be terrible since we seem to handle ourselves just fine, but it does render the "guide for humanity" kind of useless.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Let's put marijuana aside would we ...
"the dose is the poison"
This may be said to be true for most known poisons. It is always the dose that matters. If one takes few nanograms of a deadly poison one might not feel it at all. If one takes 50mg of nicotine it will be a respiratory failure + general paralysis.
So, stil, an intoxicant is an intoxicant no matter the dose. Check this link which sites few poisonous effects of nicotine: medicinenet(dot)com/nicotine/page2.htm
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 It doesn't seem like you grasped what I meant by the dosage mattering. My point is that if you ban all intoxicants from consumption, regardless of the dosage, then what principle is left to say "We should ban tobacco and cocaine, but not anesthesia and coffee"?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Now comes the role of interpretation. It is up to man to figure out which intoxicants ought to be 100% avoided and which ones should still be allowed for whichever reason it may.
In islam if there is a clear legitimate reason (medical or other) for using alcohol or Marijuana then it has to be used.
It is not as rigid as you think it is. Quran presents the big guidelines, and relies on our intelligence to work out the details.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
gotta go to sleep now
let's continue this tomorrow ...
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
The Quran should not be seen as saying : "this is how you should do, because you cannot think for yourself". We muslims see the quran as rather saying : "think about it ... this is the conclusion that you will come to"
About interpretations, the verse was rather simple and clear:"intoxicants are bad, avoid them so you may prosper"
One is free to analyze the verse and interpret it, but the main message remains clear and doesn't necessarily need further interpretations.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 I guess it would be alot simpler of a message if the Quran says "Come to your conclusions logically", and have that be the end of it. What's the point of listing out all these rules and regulations if people will follow them anyway? If we have intelligence, we don't need guidelines. We don't need both.
And I think youre still missing the point regarding intoxicants, but if the Quran is really saying "Do the best thing for you", then its like when Matthew Brodrick in Godzilla said...
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Because humans are intelligent, they usually do not agree on many things. Some say that smoking does not cause cancer (the big companies) some say that it does. Some say that Marijuana should be legalized, some say it shouldn't. So you see that we do not always agree on the same conclusion because there is a lot of interference with our reasoning, e.g. economic profit, personal preferences etc that do not always agree with the general goal of well being of the society.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 So youre saying that human beings are intelligent and therefore they come to different conclusions? That's a little contradictory, don't you think? And what makes the Quran "neutral"?
And while there is much wrong in the world, it is not for the superficial reasons you explained.
...So why would god send someone to hell for not believing in him when he never gave any evidence that he and only he existed in a divine realm? Seems a little unjust. Actually a lot unjust
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
He gave evidence, many have accepted it already and many have not. And He said in His last evidence that it will be the last one before the end of time. There were many before it, but the sequence of messages and evidences had to stop at some point before the end. The last evidence being the Quran, which is the only one that survived. The Quran is a linguistic miracle. (Check the video "Brilliance Of The Book - Nouman Ali Khan")
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 I'm not sure I follow, although I heard that claim before. Please do explain what you mean when you say "linguistic miracle". I personally only associate that which requires the suspension of natural order to be a miracle, not the continuation of it. Does this fulfill that role?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
please do watch the video I have sent you
Nouman Ali Khan is a linguistic scholar who knows this issue much much better than me
what I can say right now is that, it is documented that the pagan arabs who lived back then and who excelled in their language, testified that the language of the quran is far more sophisticated than anything they know, and even though they were challenged to produce something similar, until this day no one could produce the same
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 And what is the definition of "sophisticated" here? And given how the Muslims took over the Arabian Penninsula, and that history is usually written by the winners, are these accounts accurate?
Keep in mid as well that this "miracle" (which is NOT a suspension of natural order even if it were true) is something only Arabic speakers could understand
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
To understand what I meant by sophisticated you will have to watch the video where examples are given (500 characters are not enough).
The difference with the miracle of the Quran is that it can be checked today, you don't have to rely solely on history books.
About it being Arabic it had to come in one language anyway. And the most pure language (no regional variations or mixture with other languages) was arabic. Plus humans are intelligent and can learn arabic.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Well, a true miracle could involve sending multiple Qurans around the world, in different languages, written verbatim of each other. Not only would that be a miracle, but also much easier and less ethnocentric. It's a lot harder to learn a language than said. But I digress. Besides, to you want everyone to learn Arabic JUST to find out if the Quran is miraculous? That seems to be asking too much.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Following your logic, I think it would have been much easier to make everyone speak the same language ...
I think if one just wants to read the quran, then he will be able to find it translated to a language he can speak. If one wants to know about its linguistic miracle, then he can ask for the testimony of many people who speak his language and who have learned arabic and found the linguistic superiority of the Quran.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Translated, yes, but are you telling me that would reveal to you the so-called "linguistic miracle"?
So you are telling me I should rely on the testimony of others? Isn't that a little fallacious? If that's so, should I take into account my coptic Christian friend from college that the Quran is incoherent and nonsensical?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
No, the linguistic miracle is not present in translations.
As for logic and making sense, for that you can check your friend's testimony yourself by reading a translation.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Personally I find it quite telling that even though that book had a lot of enemies through history, no one could meet its open challenge to reproduce a similar text until today.
Knowing the risks involved, and knowing that the time for true visual miracles is gone, I personally think that if one desperately needs a miracle, he's gonna have to make the effort of learning, cause, this is the last miracle left.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Well, actually, there have been people who produced similar texts:
suralikeit(dot)(com)
And I do wonder, why is the time for visual miracles is gone? Following your logic, I should also learn Sanskrit to read the Ummayads, or Farsi for Baha'i or Zoroastrian faiths. Tell me, why should one single out Islam?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Ummayads are not claiming to be a linguistic miracle.
As for the suralikeit, I know about it, the guy who wrote it, is an arab christian called "Anis shorosh". he has been convicted some time ago for something which I don't remember now.
I can only tell you that if you know a little arabic and read those suras of him you will really laugh at the way he tries in an obvious way to mimic the construction of the quranic text while making obvious grammatic errors.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Sorry I meant Upanishads, but does it make a difference if it claims to be a miracle?
That second paragraph is an ad hominem. I won't bother legitimizing it with a response.
And I would trust your opinion because you DON'T have a conflict of interest?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I still think it is a suspension of natural order cause it is a language that no human being can produce.
But if you do not like it as an evidence, than you still can find evidence of God by observing the world around you. If you are honest enough in your quest you will see God in His creation. Or you can also pray to Him and ask Him honestly to show His evidence to YOU, and by God's will He will do, just keep insisting in your prayer.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Yea, I listened to him, and it didn't seem too special.
And if you want to know what pushed me along in my path to atheism, part of it was praying honestly to God and asking him to show the evidence of his existence, and nothing happened. Several times did nothing happen.
"Observing the world" is a pretty vague way of going about looking for evidence. Do elaborate.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I also think that an "audible miracle" is the only kind of miracle that 1-can survive time and 2- can be reproduced by normal people without the need for prophets to do the miracle (like it is the case with visual miracles). Every time you hear it you feel the miracle.
That's my personal opinion.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Sorry, you lost me on the feeling part. Remember, we Objectivists dislike the concept of the superiority of the "heart" of the mind. I don't bother myself with subjective games like that
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I didn't mention heart. I should have used read it or hear it, cause there is no other verb.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 You said you "feel" the miracle, right? That's what we reject wholeheartedly as evidence.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
again I meant read it.
but I will still answer this one so
How about the love you have to your girlfriend
do you also reject it because it is a feeling
why do you reject a quite important component of the human being ... without it he will be a dumb robot.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 There is an entire spiel regarding love by Ayn Rand. You should read up on that.
And no, as I said before, no proof, no reason to prove a negative leads me to atheism. Pretty rational, don't you think?
I don't reject emotion, only causeless emotion. And why do you reject the real most important component of the human being-namely THE MIND?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I never said I rejected the mind. That;s why I invited you to look at the creation of God to discover Him there. I'll expand on that later.
Agnosticism is more rational to me than atheism.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
For your prayers ... just keep on praying. He will answer as soon you do that TRULY SINCERE prayer where He sees that you are really looking for Him, and not just trying to prove to yourself that He doesn't answer prayers.
And do not expect the answer to be a direct intervention by God Himself just for you to tell you He's here. It will come in an unexpected way. You will have to recognize it.
I am sure you will be answered. Just keep insisting in sincere prayers.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 And how are you sure? Do explain what rational principle there is that an omniscient, omnipotent god does not answer someone's prayers?
Look, you are being insulting again. You behave as though it really wasn't a painful experience to become an atheist after believing in a god for my entire life. Trust me, I DESPERATELY wanted there to be a god who would put my doubts to rest. I prayed for weeks, and no answer. Absolutely nothing
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Sorry, I didn't know you were theist before. I am still sure though, that you will be answered. Please be patient and continue your search. You will be in a higher category than other theists the longer is your search and the steadier is your will.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 I'll give you a hint, although this is probably going to become less true in the future. If you are talking to an atheist, most likely you are talking to a former theist.
And tell me, what rational principle is there for an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent God to ignore someone? I can't name any, can you?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
In islam we know that He hears every single prayer. He does never ignore. The answer may be delayed that's all. and that can be for several reasons. Personally, I think that life is quite complicated. and certain events may better happen at certain moments in our lives. And since He is the designer of that whole complexity, He might know of a better moment.
Knowing that, you should never despair.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Oh, so if you dont explicitly say that you reject the mind it means you don't? Makes perfect sense (not really)
The agnostic viewpoint poses as fair, impartial, and balanced. See how many fallacies you can find in it. Here are a few obvious ones: First, the agnostic allows the arbitrary into the realm of human cognition. He treats arbitrary claims as ideas proper to consider, discuss, evaluate—and then he regretfully says, “I don’t know,” instead of dismissing the arbitrary out of hand.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 Second, the onus-of-proof issue: the agnostic demands proof of a negative in a context where there is no evidence for the positive. “It’s up to you,” he says, “to prove that the fourth moon of Jupiter did not cause your sex life and that it was not a result of your previous incarnation as the Pharaoh of Egypt.” Third, the agnostic says, “Maybe these things will one day be proved.” In other words, he asserts possibilities or hypotheses with no jot of evidential basis.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 In other words, Agnosticism is a miscalculated position.
And do tell me, how do you "KNOW" god hears every prayer?
And if you really think that this world is only possible due to a designer, take a look at this:
/watch?v=r7nbpd6iifg&feature=feedlik
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
And actually I was just used to atheists (not you) who would really want God to come down only for them so that they will believe.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Quite frankly, that wouldn't be too bad of a thing, because from where I'm sitting, there is no proof that a God exists, and since no one can demand one to prove, know, or believe in a negative, I can't be anything BUT an atheist.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 That's why I find it disgusting how you can just say "Oh you weren't sincere enough in your prayers".
And yes, my friend so far is correct. I can barely understand my english translation. I have never seen anything so attention deficit as this. I'm an English minor, and I would fail an essay written this way.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Remember what you read is a translation, so the style is that of the translator.
Focus on the message instead.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 The message is also either vague, irrelevant, or unethical (such as flogging people for adultery).
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Since I really need to finish this paper ... ^^! .... it is a question of survival for me ... ^^ I would ask you to please let us continue this interesting exchange in a later time. I would also like to use PM's instead of comments.
cause I am getting lost finding the latest one in the list and I am afraid I am missing some. So I'll be back to answer your latest questions in a pm soon.
until then
peace
mustno3 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@mustno3 Sure, works for me. PM me when you have a chance :)
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 Besides, what about god?
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Although humans are intelligent, they have different opinions and different interests, and I think it's good to have a neutral third party "manual" or guideline that may be seen as a referee and a reminder of the general path to follow to "general" well being. Indeed in many verses of the quran you will find it saying "this book is a reminder .."
So the Quran or the message comes as a unifying common ground to a mosaic of intelligent-human opinions.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
... contn
also from an islamic point of view, the quran or message is a witness for God that at some point in history He did try to hint humans in their quest of well-being so that on the day of judgment we do not claim He didn't, i.e. He left us out to our greed, arrogance, ignorance, and all the illnesses of the human soul that are causing so much wrong in the world today and in our daily life.
On that day He will say "I warned you so blame yourself"
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 ... "That's a lot of fish". It still seems meaningless.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@mustno3 Btw I know I just made a movie reference, but bear with me.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
I can ignore insults
but what I cannot ignore is that the person I discuss with, in addition to insulting me, starts to accuse me of insulting him, while anyone who reads my comments will see that nowhere I have used an insulting word.
This I cannot accept, and anyone with some dignity and some sense of fairness will not accept.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
Also I know most of the arguments you will bring up cause I watched a lot of such discussions between muslims and renowned atheists on YT.
I suggest that you look for those videos, everything I might say is already there. That is if you are interested in the arguments rather than in the arguing, in which I am not interested.
That being said, if you still have questions you would like to ask a muslim, I'll be happy.
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 ...that is false is the idea that Islam is purely rational and the statement that supported rationality was not done out of pure rhetoric-keep in mind almost everyone "appeals" to rationality.
And again, you avoided my challenge- Prove that God exists, but no other alternative does.
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
If you think it is not rational that's fine with me ....
Again, proving God to you doesn't mean anything .. just think about it. No one can prove God to you. You alone can. Cause if you predisposed your thinking to refusing something, nothing on earth will convince you, even if you see God with your own eyes. You would think it is a hallucination. There is no limit to doubt.
So just think for yourself .. it's your job. If you can't convince yourself, no one can.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
and we know that God forbade injustice on Himself, as He says in verse 3:108. And it is plain injustice to punish someone who REALLY did not know or did not have the ABILITY TO KNOW cause as you said he might live in some part of the world where they did not hear about God. But this is difficult nowadays, and you heard about God ... so no such an excuse in your case, and if you succeed in convincing yourself that you are sincere in your disbelief then good for you.
mustno3 1 year ago
@GoingGoingGalt
that being said I really think that it is very difficult for someone to really know the degree of one's own sincerity in something. It needs a really deep long sincere look inside one's heart to discover one's true intention ..!!
now I guess the guy in the amazon who never heard about any religion whatsoever or even a God, and could not arrive to the existence of God by his own thinking, of course that guy won't have any problem in proving or claiming his sincerity in disbelief
mustno3 1 year ago
@mustno3 Your pascal's wager is invalid. More than one paradigm is possible. You and I can both be wrong-Christianity is the true way, and we will both go to hell
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@CognosSquare
meaning that He forgives ALL sins EXCEPT ONE ... :
that is the arrogance of not believing in Him
mustno3 1 year ago
looks extremely boring...
penfolduk78 1 year ago
@penfolduk78 to a closed mind ignorance is quality entertainment
Jaegar19Ultima 1 year ago